View Full Version : In the words of Rodney King...
"People, I just want to say, can we all get along?"
Internet communities are interesting institutions. I could pass ALL of you on the street and pass right by, yet I've shared many aspects of my life with you and you with me. Our only means of communication are words--no body language, no eye contact, no nuance behind intonation, no silence in each other's presence.
So it's not unusual that sometimes people may "say" something that on the surface looks unfriendly, or even hostile. And it's not unusual for the recipient of those words to take offense or even feel attacked. Those other mitigating factors of community--a touch, body language, nuance--are not available to assuage the incendiary words.
If anyone is compelled to deprive ALL of us of your virtual company, words of wisdom and friendship because of one hurtful post, please, please reconsider. Please consider that you may be reacting to one person, and not even just one person, that one person's one post. But if you react by going away, it's your whole "family" here that's going to suffer a little by your absence.
It's not like I don't have any social life and depend on this forum for human interaction, but it's certainly true that I count you as friends, virtual or not. The other day I was talking to a colleague who mentioned she grew up in New Mexico, and I said, "Oh, I have a friend in Madrid!" Or I'll say to fellow Master Gardeners, "Oh, I have a friend who's an expert in irises." Or, when I was looking for a place in Vermont, I remember telling my realtor, "Oh, a good friend of mine found this house online and suggested it."
Unlike in real life, if you guys go away, you're "dead to me" in the sense that I can't continue the relationship. Despite being "friends" with some of you for up to 20 years, I don't even know your real names! I have no emails, phone numbers, addresses, nothing. And so when you get mad and decide to leave, I grieve a little, truth be known. I've lost a friend.
Interesting times we've found ourselves in, when our friends are "Senior Members" only known to us by a facade of up to thousands of posts, and nothing more. But the personalities behind those posts have added to my life, and I anticipate will continue to do so.
So, before you get pissed off, or annoyed, or hurt and decide to close your account because of one post, please think of the rest of us.
And as for the rest of us, let's be careful about checking our words for their likelihood to hurt or offend.
Teacher Terry
2-14-19, 9:10am
Catherine, I totally agree. In fact that’s why a month or so ago I apologized for being a asshat.
Catherine, You've said it well. I miss those who left. Thanks for the reminder to watch our words.
Catherine, I assume my post to Williamsmith is the impetus of your post. Here is what I just added to the original thread, to clarify.
"Okay, due to Alan and Catherine's assessment of my post to Williamsmith, I am formally apologizing to Williamsmith. I was wrong to say anything in response to your posts, which as you point out, was made in jest, in a historical context, and I chose to find it offensive to my friends and family members.
Please do not voluntarily exile yourself from this community, as you mean a great deal to it.
My original post seems to have violated the community terms of discourse. I removed it ten minutes after I wrote it for fear that I would hurt you or make you uncomfortable.
Please return, Williamsmith, as you mean too much to this community to absent yourself."
I understand that Williamsmith's writings are eloquent and his Daily Bread column is really treasured. I in no means meant to hurt or offend him or drive him away.
Sad Eyed Lady
2-14-19, 9:46am
catherine, very, very well said.
catherine
2-14-19, 10:11am
Thanks, Tybee, yes, I reacted to seeing Williamsmith's status changed to "guest." But that was just the straw that broke the camel's back--we've lost a few people who seemingly reacted to just one post and left us. I still miss seeing posts from Ultralight. Shoot, I still miss Mrs. Mizerly!
Hopefully WS will see your clarification and apology.
Let's hope; I feel terrible he chose to absent himself. I will happily leave if it will make him safe to be here. I can't apologize more than I have, and I did remove the original post that offended him, four hours prior to him posting. I was wrong to interpret his post that way and wrong to say anything.
Again, I am happy to go if that will make you happy to come back, if you are reading williamsmith. Your posts mean so much to everyone.
catherine
2-14-19, 10:30am
LI will happily leave if it will make him safe to be here.
Hmm.. personally I'm not in favor of "swapping hostages." :). There's room for everyone here.
You are right--it is his choice to come or go. We hope he comes back. You've apologized--stop beating yourself up!
Thanks for again reminding us, Catherine.
I, too, consider each of these members as my community of "friends" and make reference often of you all in some way.
I chose to view your post as a generic message to all, and am going to ignore the personal. (No offense to anyone, please!)
catherine
2-14-19, 10:35am
I chose to view your post as a generic message to all, and am going to ignore the personal. (No offense to anyone, please!)
Yes, that's really how it should be. Thanks, lmerullo.
iris lilies
2-14-19, 11:04am
I often refer to my “online friends” and their experiences. DH calls you all my “little friends” because, I dont know, he wants to belittle my online experience? But screw him, I dont care!
Here is one majorly good thing about online community: You all can physically move away from where you currently live and still stay in our community here.
Our closest friend is moving to New Hampshire in two days and that is the end of an era for us because with her move, all of our close friends will be gone from our neighborhood. And sure we have lots of acquaintances and semi-close friends, but the loss of 10+ people over the past few years is a big hole in our social life. And while I remain busy busy busy with garden club stuff, I haven’t formed close friendships and probably will not because all of the people I like live too far away.
Teacher Terry
2-14-19, 12:08pm
Luckily all my friends love it here so haven’t lost any. When I broke my wrist someone different came every night to help me even though they all still work.
iris lilies
2-14-19, 1:07pm
Luckily all my friends love it here so haven’t lost any. When I broke my wrist someone different came every night to help me even though they all still work.
We have lost friends to the retirement stage of life. They have spread all over the country, so it isnt necessarily weather that motivates their move.
The tall old houses here are not conducive to aging in place.
I still marvel at how EASY it is to live in our Hermann house with bedrooms on mainfloor, but
I will admit that part of that ease is no real “stuff “ to have to clean and move around regularly.
I still marvel at how EASY it is to live in our Hermann house with bedrooms on mainfloor, but
I will admit that part of that ease is no real “stuff “ to have to clean and move around regularly.
We've found exactly the same in Grand Isle. I thought a small house might come with problems, but the one-floor living is great. Very easy. And I get what you're saying about no stuff: my big fear is we sell our house in NJ and clutter up the VT house.
Regarding friends, I've found quitting jobs has always meant losing friends. I really like many of the people I've worked with, and since I travel a lot, I've spent a lot of time with work friends in restaurants, on trains and planes, etc. I've really, really enjoyed their company, but as soon as they've moved on or I've moved on, the friendships have been over.
I was just thinking how hard 2-story living is--always needing to transport things here and there, up and down. I long for an uncomplicated flat. I need to get out of here, but it seems like an impossibility.
Most humans take everything very personally and are easily offended. It is one of those things that should improve as you age. About finding new friends...I am working on it here - gardening club, book club, art lessons. I've noticed that the women I have met here are in general are "snipey/judgemental" than down south so it seems easier to make new friends. Or maybe it is that when you get older, you aren't feeling the need to compare anymore, ie weight, looks, house etc. It is refreshing and one of the things I have liked about moving here.
I was just thinking how hard 2-story living is--always needing to transport things here and there, up and down. I long for an uncomplicated flat. I need to get out of here, but it seems like an impossibility.
I like the exercise of the stairs, especially on the winter when I do not want to walk outdoors.
I still miss seeing posts from Ultralight.
I had no idea since I blocked him months ago. Apparently I'm not the only person he tangled with. If someone wants to leave in a huff it doesn't bother me.
I like the exercise of the stairs, especially on the winter when I do not want to walk outdoors.
The exercise part was OK a few years ago, but the hassle of moving random stuff from place to place always was annoying. I am more than ready for a one story place.
so true about stairs. I find myself saying multiple times a day "now where did I leave my glasses/shoes? Which floor? Up down...up down.
Wishing Williamsmith and Ultralight a happy Valentines Day, wherever they are. And best holiday wishes to all the other departed as well as the scolds and perpetually aggrieved who helped them along their way, may they learn from their mistakes.
rosarugosa
2-15-19, 6:00am
Wow Catherine, you said it so well. I've been part of this community for almost 10 years now, and I've often experienced the same concerns about the fragility of our connections. I joined the old Forums shortly before the original (?) platform was discontinued, and I remember how bereft I felt. I had found my tribe, and then I lost them! I was so relieved when we migrated, but I've always been aware of that vulnerability.
I try very hard to remain both diplomatic and thick-skinned!
Wishing Williamsmith and Ultralight a happy Valentines Day, wherever they are. And best holiday wishes to all the other departed as well as the scolds and perpetually aggrieved who helped them along their way, may they learn from their mistakes.
We seem to be living in a time of peak touchiness. People take offense on behalf of other’s imagined offense, and the accused offender is offended by the accuser’s offense. And that is just from anonymous, ephemeral internet utterances.
Too many of us search for identity in little tribes with ever-changing and complicated codes of speech, symbols and behavior, which they try to enforce through shaming. As a rule, if a sentence starts with “as a ...” you can pretty much predict what comes next. And if they seek to indict you as a member of one of their tribe’s villain categories, you can be pretty confident they have no better argument to offer.
The only real mistake you can make is taking such tactics seriously.
Wishing Williamsmith and Ultralight a happy Valentines Day, wherever they are. And best holiday wishes to all the other departed as well as the scolds and perpetually aggrieved who helped them along their way, may they learn from their mistakes.
Well said, Alan. Thank you!
As I recall, it was a scold or two who sent Packy on his way; he was a crusty old misogynist, but he was harmless.
rosarugosa
2-15-19, 1:17pm
As I recall, it was a scold or two who sent Packy on his way; he was a crusty old misogynist, but he was harmless.
I recall him as more of a misanthropist, but agree about the harmless part. Apparently he really alienated some people though.
I recall him as more of a misanthropist, but agree about the harmless part. Apparently he really alienated some people though.
And they scuttled off anyway, so what was the point?
Hmmm. Misanthrope, could be. Maybe that's why I felt some kinship.
I find the "ignore" function at least partially useful. I wish more would use it and set their minds at ease.
iris lilies
2-15-19, 3:11pm
I have already had my rant for the day. Do I get another?haha.
I do not understand the whole “I dont feel safe” mindset for anonymous online communities. While I think that
1) there are some pretty skeevy people out there
2) we get to feel what we feel about them and their words
...despite those two ideas I am not going to deny someone’s involvement in a online community for their thoughts and their ability to speak them. Why should I have that power? I suppose we are just talking about community standards of behavior here. I am less concerned with speech doing harm than other actions in the public square.
And really, why does “safety” that is not a physical concern trump my “annoyance.” ? I do not feel unsafe in an anonymous online community but
I often feel annoyed. But so what? Let me feel annoyed, big deal.
Finally, I truly believe in the power of sunshine in exposing hateful ideas and speech. Let the haters share their ideas, write their words, show us their stuff. Turn it out into the open air, let us know who they are.
There was such an odd thing happen on the MMM website. A man who wrote a journal was banned. He never stepped out of his own online journal to argue with anyone, those who argued with him entered “his” journal, and let me tell you, journal space on the MMM site is considered somewhat sacred because anyone reading has to have an MMM account, and those posts are not indexed in search engines. So this journal writer was considered by many to be misogynist and combative. Yet, his “haters” kept entering his journal space to argue with him. And they continued to complain about him to moderators but he minded his own business writing loooooooong posts about himself, his ex wife, his plans and his achievments, not disrupting the MMM community by posting anywhere other than his own journal, the space defined by him as being his. Oh yeah, one of the haters doxxed him, too.
But the moderators banned him in probably the most extraordinary moderator action I have seen. I am still shaking my head over that, just cannot grok it.
Overall, the age of the MMM users are a good 15 years younger than the age of people here. I guess I put it down to the intolerance of the young.
Teacher Terry
2-15-19, 3:14pm
IL, I found it odd also.
As I recall, it was a scold or two who sent Packy on his way; he was a crusty old misogynist, but he was harmless.Yes, it was several scolds who complained virtually daily of everything from his lack of punctuation to the fact that they didn't feel safe participating in the community. I banned him after behind the scenes negotiations with him were settled with the understanding that he was safe here as long as he didn't do one thing in particular. But, he apparently couldn't control himself and did that thing anyway and I applied the ban as soon as I saw it.
The scolds don't really play much into moderation decisions as we know who they are and what to expect from them. In eight years of operation, there's only been one person banned and that was Packy. One of our resident scolds made a very public post here during Packy's tenure saying that she would never help support a community that allowed someone like Packy to participate. I don't recall anyone calling her on that but I can tell you I never forgot it. When Packy did eventually get the boot she made another public post requesting info on how to donate to the forums. I told her how but also told her that if she were only willing to donate because she got what she wanted, she should save her money, I would not accept it and would rather incur all expenses myself rather than accept blood money. She never did contribute and eventually went away herself. Good riddance on that one!
Getting back to Packy, he discovered me on Facebook several years ago and has sent me hundreds of messages (sometimes 3 or 4 per day) just to talk about things that interested him. I was impressed and told him I'd consider letting him back on the forums if he'd simply not go out of his way to create problems. That's when he started sending me daily messages beginning with "Reason #3,115 you were right to ban me, if allowed to post this is what I'd say", then go off on the silliest tangents designed to do nothing more than create controversy. I stopped responding to those and just recently finally blocked him from messaging me.
I suspect he'll read this thread (as he does still read everything here as a guest) and be so satisfied with being the subject of multiple posts he'll start sending emails. I hope not, but we'll see.
rosarugosa
2-15-19, 4:57pm
Wow Alan, I had no idea that you had so much post-SLF interaction with Packy. I'll admit that always rather enjoyed him, but that does sound a bit over the top. I'll bet you've got a few other good stories up your sleeve. Thanks for all you do for our little world here. :)
Thanks for all you do for our little world here. :)
+1
Thanks to Alan as well as to the other moderators.
"Didn't feel safe?" Where's the ROFL smiley when you need one? Poor fragile thing.
Bribery after the fact is a nice touch; I didn't notice that interaction, but I'would gladly have pungled up more money to make up for any perceived shortfall.
Teacher Terry
2-15-19, 8:48pm
Very weird Alan.
ToomuchStuff
2-16-19, 12:50am
Reading the title of this thread, how it started off, and some of the responses, has only made me think of Rodney Kings, OTHER famous words..........
OW, OW, OW, Ow......:laff:
In the end, you only control yourselves and everyone chooses their own tolerance for silliness.
What I have found (I confess) through trial and error of experience :idea: is that when I am reacting emotionally and negatively to anyone's posts, it is time for me to take a break. That is what I do in real life and also online. It can be here or on the news or anywhere else. Take a needed break!
Thanks, Alan for moderating so well that we don't know it has happened. Dealing with grumps and goofs is not always easy. As for not feeling safe on this forum...seems a bit paranoid. i ignore some posts and have never felt the need to block anyone. I do try to pause and think before I react.I am not always successful. Thanks again Alan.
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