View Full Version : Immigration....is there no more room for political asylium claimants?
gimmethesimplelife
4-5-19, 10:53pm
I understand that Trump stated during his appearance in Calexico, California (right across the border from Mexicali and a great place to base yourself for Mexican dental or medical) that there was "no more room" in America for those claiming political asylum. What's your take on this, agree or disagree? I believe the regulars here can predict my anti Orange One take which precedes me by this point so I will spare the board this. I'm really curious to hear what other think of his statement here and what it means for America. Rob
There’s a labor shortage. There’s lots of room. Our president is an embarrassment.
Seems like there should be plenty of room at the inn.
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!” Emma Larzarus
“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!” Emma Larzarus
That was a great line back then, but it's a totally different world/country now.
I wonder if all the people here live in the city or suburbia..........or on an island? I live out in the country, which is the only place I ever want to live. And the development coming this way is just unimaginable. All the small towns are now cities. It really IS unbelievable. So my feelings are........why do we still think it's the early 1900s and why is there never any end to "growth and development" in this country? Again, I liken it to a family who has a couple kids and everything is good (good enough), but they just keep taking in anyone who knocks on their door. What happens to that quality of life that they once had, after there are now 30+ people living in that house? I don't want to fill in all our beautiful empty spaces either. And I don't want to use up even more resources, and crowd out any other species that might find this home.
Like I said, I have the feeling that everyone who thinks we should continue to let everyone and his brother in, doesn't live in an area that is becoming over-crowded, over-built, never enough roads, etc. Like I've said, we can't even feed and educate the people who are already here. Okay....let the flaming begin.
CA, I agree that an open border with no limits is not a good idea, but not allowing some people seeking asylum goes against what our country represents in my opinion, as well as current law. Remember when we were against Jewish people seeking asylum in the WWII era.
The people aren't going to disappear. Whether they're using resources in the Midwest, West Coast, or Mexico, they are still going to need housing and other basic necessities, so in terms of environmental impact, you can't say NIMBY because the resources to house and feed people are going to happen regardless so the environmental argument doesn't really apply.
When I drive from New Jersey, the most densely populated state, through eastern PA and then across the state, I'm amazed at how quickly the roads go from urbanized and highly suburban density roads and cities to... nothing! There is a LOT of land in the US, and I only have to drive two hours to feel like I'm in the middle of nowhere.
Urbanization is a trend--they say that more and more people will live in cities. Growth will happen there first. Things are changing, but the growth that bothers me most are the regular rich white people who feel entitled to water their vast precious lawns during droughts and tear down old brownstones to build swimming pools in Manhattan (https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/05/nyregion/gentrification-one-percent-manhattan.html?fallback=0&recId=1JUrjfa6veDmH5ZGULuSVN3f2BD&locked=0&geoContinent=NA&geoRegion=NJ&recAlloc=top_conversion&geoCountry=US&blockId=most-popular&imp_id=855532706&action=click&module=Most%20Popular&pgtype=Homepage). Immigrants probably leave a much smaller footprint on a per capita basis .
Footprints can be minimized by foreign aid to refugee camps in other countries. Could we not fund these in Mexico, Belize, Costa Rica, Nicaragua and Panama for the displaced from Guatemala, El Salvador and Honduras?
We similarly should be helping Venezuelan refugees in Colombia and Brazil.
Anyone who has enjoyed any of the overflight videos like Over Washington knows that we have plenty of space. This is a vast, vast country--the fact that people like to move and that cities tend to expand does not change that fact. If Trump and his fellow white nationalists have his way and immigration his heavily curtailed (believe me, Norwegians aren't clamoring to emigrate), we'll live to regret it. Immigrants bring new ideas and vigor that only enhance their new country--witness the thousands of immigrant and second-generation scholars and entrepreneurs who are thriving here.
As a country we CHOOSE not to be able to house, educate and provide health care for our citizens. There is plenty of money and plenty of space. We just choose not to provide it. Our tax system, our defense budget and industry lobbyists all could be better used to create real jobs, real housing and real health care and infrastructure to support it.
gimmethesimplelife
4-6-19, 11:36am
That was a great line back then, but it's a totally different world/country now.
I wonder if all the people here live in the city or suburbia..........or on an island? I live out in the country, which is the only place I ever want to live. And the development coming this way is just unimaginable. All the small towns are now cities. It really IS unbelievable. So my feelings are........why do we still think it's the early 1900s and why is there never any end to "growth and development" in this country? Again, I liken it to a family who has a couple kids and everything is good (good enough), but they just keep taking in anyone who knocks on their door. What happens to that quality of life that they once had, after there are now 30+ people living in that house? I don't want to fill in all our beautiful empty spaces either. And I don't want to use up even more resources, and crowd out any other species that might find this home.
Like I said, I have the feeling that everyone who thinks we should continue to let everyone and his brother in, doesn't live in an area that is becoming over-crowded, over-built, never enough roads, etc. Like I've said, we can't even feed and educate the people who are already here. Okay....let the flaming begin.Cathy, about your first sentence? Not only is it a different world in the United States - the same holds true in another traditionally immigrant heavy country - Argentina. Right after the current right wing President was sworn in, new laws were passed limiting immigration there. This in a country whose Constitution states that "An Argentine is anyone who wishes to be one". NOT ANYMORE. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
4-6-19, 11:41am
There’s a labor shortage. There’s lots of room. Our president is an embarrassment.That sums if up for me, yup! Short and sweet. Rob
Teacher Terry
4-6-19, 11:48am
I agree with Tammy. We are growing like crazy. Lots of empty land.
ApatheticNoMore
4-6-19, 11:52am
the housing shortage is far more real than the labor shortage which is complete fiction. If the labor shortage was real would anyone actually be driving for Uber to make a few bucks? Of course not (there are hobbyist but they are likely not much more common than those doing a 9-5 "as a hobby" with no need of money). When you can't get an Uber is when we have a real labor shortage.
As a country we CHOOSE not to be able to house, educate and provide health care for our citizens. There is plenty of money and plenty of space. We just choose not to provide it. Our tax system, our defense budget and industry lobbyists all could be better used to create real jobs, real housing and real health care and infrastructure to support it.
there is plenty of space maybe, but not if everyone aspires to live in a single family houses near big cities. There is only enough space with density.
Teacher Terry
4-6-19, 12:00pm
People rather drive Uber than pick crops. We have a housing shortage.
flowerseverywhere
4-6-19, 3:31pm
Is there physical room? You can build apartments to accorddate large numbers of people. There is a lot of land, but are you willing to give up national and state parks and water management lands (wetlands, water delivery), farmland, wildlife habitats, ranges for it?
Because the big picture of what is happening in our world is just the start
there are about 65 million refugees in the world, and that number is growing per the U.N. people escaping climate change, murderous regimes, poor economic opportunity, and so on. Many areas in the US that saw themselves on fire or under water during this year are living in places where it is iffy to rebuild. They will become the newest people in search of a new home. Miami is slowly being swamped, they even raised some streets.
So the question is, how will the world adapt to this increasing upheaval of people.
Are we building infrastructure in cities, like mass transit? Are we preparing to provide more people with medical care, schooling, are we repairing aging electrical grids, water delivery and sanitation systems? Is the workplace going to accommodate religious observances, cultural differences and language differences? Can people get from point a to point b without causing massive traffic jams? LA, NYC, Atlanta and so on are a mess at 2 AM, never mind during the day. This is not a US problem, Europe certainly has its struggles too.
No ne wants to see windmills out their windows, live down wind of a nuclear power plant, or in a town with a coal burning power plant. Not to mention garbage. Plastic is swamping our oceans, littering our homes and streets and we will soon have a new mountain range of garbage in this country.
So in a perfect world, countries would band together to say how can we solve our problems? How can we cooperate with other countries so we solve their problems? But our disfunctional governments are an embarrassment and we are all being fools to think these Problems will magically solve themselves.
Please someone come up with soome solutions because I would love to return our country and world to some compassion and sanity. Voting or forcing Trump out will not make these problems go away.
There is definitely physical room but when you think about practical matters like housing, jobs, medical care, schooling for all the children who don't speak English and who are educationally delayed due to their circumstances, etc. it seems overwhelming. They would have to be on public assistance for quite some time as there would be a long adjustment period.
flowerseverywhere
4-6-19, 5:06pm
There is definitely physical room but when you think about practical matters like housing, jobs, medical care, schooling for all the children who don't speak English and who are educationally delayed due to their circumstances, etc. it seems overwhelming. They would have to be on public assistance for quite some time as there would be a long adjustment period.
and there we go. Hardworking Americans who were born here are vilified and scorned if they have failed to “pull themselves up by the bootstraps” these people not only don’t have boots, they don’t have shoes. they would need help with food, language, housing, transportation and medical care. Imagine how hard it will be to convince our angry frothing at the mouth mobs at MAGA rally’s to put more non citizens on welfare that are not white, possibly not Christian and don’t speak English. Good luck with that.
Young children will learn English in six months. It's adults who struggle.
There is definitely physical room but when you think about practical matters like housing, jobs, medical care, schooling for all the children who don't speak English and who are educationally delayed due to their circumstances, etc. it seems overwhelming. They would have to be on public assistance for quite some time as there would be a long adjustment period.
Sounds like you're describing what happened after WWII ended. All the soldiers (and sailors, etc) came home, got married, and started cranking out babies galore and the economy went gangbusters. Bring in lots of immigrants and we'll have a building boom with lots of jobs building houses, roads, sewers, schools, new stores, etc. And new residents eager to take those jobs. And the people working those jobs will pay taxes and social security taxes and spend money on other things like food and cars and furniture. Sounds like a win win win to me.
Sounds like a win win win to me.
Stop making sense!
https://www.vox.com/2019/3/18/18270916/labor-shortage-workers-us
Sounds like you're describing what happened after WWII ended. All the soldiers (and sailors, etc) came home, got married, and started cranking out babies galore and the economy went gangbusters. Bring in lots of immigrants and we'll have a building boom with lots of jobs building houses, roads, sewers, schools, new stores, etc. And new residents eager to take those jobs. And the people working those jobs will pay taxes and social security taxes and spend money on other things like food and cars and furniture. Sounds like a win win win to me.
And higher wages would also go a long way in stimulating the economy. I'm all for your plan!
https://www.vox.com/2019/3/18/18270916/labor-shortage-workers-us
Ha! I just read this; I couldn't agree more.
Hmmm......."bring in lots of immigrants and we'll have a building boom, with lots of jobs building houses, roads, sewers, schools, new stores, etc." I thought this was a Simple Living forum. I'm still hearing that we need more people, more endless stuff. This is not what I want. I guess we have all kinds of people on this forum, but continually building up, growing more, developing more, and more, etc. sure doesn't sound like simple living to me. Sounds like most of you want this. I'm sure some of you just want to be kind to the less fortunate. But some of you have turned it into getting more of what we already have out of it. That's for sure not what I want for the rest of the life on this planet. Of course I feel bad for many people who are fleeing, but there's a point at which I don't want to live in a place that we're heading for. I find a lot of responses about it fairly naive. We'll just have to see how it all turns out.
Teacher Terry
4-6-19, 7:44pm
I know it would be best if countries could work on this issue together. Since that won’t happen I think we need to be compassionate.
What is the proper population level of the US?
flowerseverywhere
4-6-19, 8:27pm
Hmmm......."bring in lots of immigrants and we'll have a building boom, with lots of jobs building houses, roads, sewers, schools, new stores, etc." I thought this was a Simple Living forum. I'm still hearing that we need more people, more endless stuff. This is not what I want. I guess we have all kinds of people on this forum, but continually building up, growing more, developing more, and more, etc. sure doesn't sound like simple living to me. Sounds like most of you want this. I'm sure some of you just want to be kind to the less fortunate. But some of you have turned it into getting more of what we already have out of it. That's for sure not what I want for the rest of the life on this planet. Of course I feel bad for many people who are fleeing, but there's a point at which I don't want to live in a place that we're heading for. I find a lot of responses about it fairly naive. We'll just have to see how it all turns out.
i see a lot of this type of thinking where I live. Doesn’t everyone have a right to pursue their dream for a nice house, some kids, a garden etc? A chance for a good job?
Every day I realize how lucky I am, to be born in this country, where even an mixed race orphan can get an education and end up living in a nice house, with plenty to eat and good medical care. I was extremely lucky people stepped up to help me and my siblings. Why should it stop with me? Does it have to stop with me?
by the way, I did not agree with the tax cuts. I do a lot of volunteer work and I see the need for more money in schools and the need for support systems. You have to give people the tools to better themselves
I do agree with careful screening of immigrants. And deportation of criminals. For the life of me I cannot understand sanctuary cities.
Hmmm......."bring in lots of immigrants and we'll have a building boom, with lots of jobs building houses, roads, sewers, schools, new stores, etc." I thought this was a Simple Living forum. I'm still hearing that we need more people, more endless stuff. This is not what I want. I guess we have all kinds of people on this forum, but continually building up, growing more, developing more, and more, etc. sure doesn't sound like simple living to me. Sounds like most of you want this. I'm sure some of you just want to be kind to the less fortunate. But some of you have turned it into getting more of what we already have out of it. That's for sure not what I want for the rest of the life on this planet. Of course I feel bad for many people who are fleeing, but there's a point at which I don't want to live in a place that we're heading for. I find a lot of responses about it fairly naive. We'll just have to see how it all turns out.
I understand your desire to be a hermit. Sometimes I feel the same way. Probably not as often as you, but occasionally. If I did at your level I'd probably consider moving to central Nevada. I drove through there a few years ago. Trust me, no one's going to be building up suburbs near you if you move anywhere along Route 50 east of Carson City.
But to respond to your questions,
1) whether these people move here or not they still exist and will live somewhere using resources. Simple living isn't about people living simply because they are so impoverished that they can't afford anything it's about living thoughtfully.
2) Every single one of us in this country either descended from a) immigrants, b) African slaves brought here against their will or c) Native Americans (now a very minor subset since the first group did such a great job in killing off most of them). For a nation of immigrants, that has succeeded wildly, to now say "shut the door! I've got mine! Eff everyone else." is tragically selfish.
Well, I do live thoughtfully....which does make me think about the future and how our decisions can affect things that we can't reverse. We'll have to agree to disagree about some things. But that doesn't make me "tragically selfish".
Before you decide that this country is "too full" I'd suggest some world travel. People who think our urban areas are densely populated have obviously never been somewhere like Hong Kong. An entire city that is as dense and crazy full of people as Times Square... And as I suggested before, some internal travel to other parts of our country. Otherwise I'm afraid my original assessment stands.
mschrisgo2
4-6-19, 10:19pm
As for the housing issue... in the general area where I live, there are at least 3 large shopping malls that are almost totally defunct, i.e. no longer function as a shopping mall. I believe there are some great uses for these developments... housing for seniors, for one. Some of the large expanse of paved parking lot could be used as a real regional transit station, since the bus routes already service the area... and so on. For minds greater than my own to develop.
As for the immigrants, I hear continual reference to "picking crops" much of which is mechanized now.
However, these people are the ones who staff the hotels and resorts and airports (I'm sure including Trump's establishments).
Without that labor, vacations will be a different experience.
ApatheticNoMore
4-7-19, 3:28am
https://www.vox.com/2019/3/18/182709...age-workers-us
to believe this when experience teaches otherwise would be both extremely delusional and extremely self-destructive. It would mean I could relax in the certainty I could find work. But I KNOW this is not true. I also literally see salaries falling in recruiter contacts I get recently (so I get recruiter contacts, that means I can find work, well no ... but it's not a bad sign per se of course, but I got them when I was unemployed, and well I played that game but was still unemployed). But anyway it's like wow salaries are falling ... and I don't mean inflation adjusted salaries but nominal salaries.
All I can do to hope to survive is keep pushing, and if that doesn't work accept things have not gone my way to put it mildly, that I have to be unemployed, maybe I have to be dependent, maybe try to do something else, maybe fail at that too because I'm really too old. I'm not marginally attached to working and need to be enticed into the labor market, I am attached to working (doesn't mean I love it, I surely don't, but it definitely beats unemployment), but if I must stoically accept that there is no work for me, then what can you do? I hope to be stoic next time. Better than I managed last time which was not well at all. So the idea of people needing to be enticed into the labor market is beyond my imagining, who the heck are these people anyway?
Demand better wages? Are you literally insane!?! If I was unionized in solidarity maybe, I believe in that. But I'm not. So myself, no, that's crazy talk! And the ever dropping wages the recruiters quote me, if I was more desperate (ie this contract didn't have a while to go still but it does), then it would be sure sign me up! (and understand that this is all just 6 month contract work and the like, it's not full time jobs either)
Picking crops isn't the only option for newly arrived and less skilled people. We desperately need infrastructure replacement and repair, and there are plenty of jobs opening up in the green economy, as well as jobs in the service industry. If we ever get our environmental act together (and repair all the damage done by the current regime), immigrants could help with clean up efforts.
Sanctuary cities refuse to be a surrogate for ICE, the American Gestapo--they draw the line at having their police officers doing the dirty work of rooting out and terrorizing the undocumented. We need comprehensive immigration reform and some kind of guest worker program.
My concept of simple living doesn't involve pulling up the drawbridge and sitting back in my castle; it's even more Jane-centric than that. I've done my part for ZPG, and in other ways; I'm not interested in proving my bonafides by denying others entry to this country.
We can let our population dwindle, I guess--Baby Boomers will be dying out by the droves soon--and our economy stagnate, but I don't see how we benefit from that.
gimmethesimplelife
4-7-19, 10:21am
I will be crossing into Nogales, Mexico, in a few weeks, provided that the US/Mexico border does remain open, something of which I don't have a lot of faith. But we'll see. Obviously I won't be privy to things going on behind the scenes, but I will be able to see the line of asylum applicants - last June they were sitting nest to the line of folks with documents to the enter the US - Mexican day trippers with border crosser cards and those with US passports or Permanent Resident cards.
And I'm guessing that due to Trump and the general hysteria at the border it will likely take longer to cross - no biggie, I save so much money in Mexico over US prices that I'll be happy to take a long book with me - Gone With the Wind or maybe War and Peace - to crack open while I'm in the unnecessarily slow moving line due to US border paranoia. Plus it's a chance to pass out money to beggars and to do some ambassador work for the next US citizen fleeing to Mexico to save money - I'll apologize for Trump to each and every person I encounter - in both English and Spanish. It's what little I can do to smooth the path for the next US citizen to save money and keep some goodwill going (hopefully). Rob
Was reading this morning about how many US policies involving Central America decades ago let to the sad state those countries are in now. CIA and Chiquita is only one.
Sanctuary cities refuse to be a surrogate for ICE, the American Gestapo--they draw the line at having their police officers doing the dirty work of rooting out and terrorizing the undocumented.
There's also the unfunded-mandate aspect of the matter. My county is right on the border, and a lot of people come through here. We have only a handful of law enforcement officers, and enforcing federal border regulations would make it impossible for them to do the local jobs we ask of them. So my county, for better or worse, follows sanctuary jurisdiction policies - no warrant, no holding for ICE. We don't have the budget or facilities or staff to do so even if we wanted to.
ApatheticNoMore
4-7-19, 3:39pm
Of course illegal immigration raids at places of employment actually do take place in sanctuary cities, given what I hear about what is going on locally. I don't know, but I suspect it's a lot less cut and dried than saying one is a sanctuary city. Sometimes much of local government seems to be largely public relations, and I guess being a "sanctuary city" is good PR.
Of course illegal immigration raids at places of employment actually do take place in sanctuary cities, given what I hear about what is going on locally. I don't know, but I suspect it's a lot less cut and dried than saying one is a sanctuary city. Sometimes much of local government seems to be largely public relations, and I guess being a "sanctuary city" is good PR.
I don't think sanctuary cities provide sanctuary in the sense of the way Julian Assange has gotten sanctuary in a foreign embassy in London, but rather, just that undocumented immigrants in them don't have to fear that local law enforcement is a threat to them. Studies have shown that there are less hit and run accidents in sanctuary cities because undocumented people don't have to fear deportation if they caused a fender/bender. Or are a victim of domestic abuse who is afraid to call the cops out of fear of deportation.
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