View Full Version : Notre Dame is burning
Watching live coverage of Notre Dame cathedral in Paris as it burns. Not sure how the fire started but the roof has now collapsed and the fire is still spreading.
Parts of the building are nearly a thousand years old and it hurts me to watch such a beautiful and historic structure be destroyed in real time.
Shocking. Was there many years ago. Just heard one of the rose windows was destroyed. I had forgotten how old it was - truly a miracle it has lasted so long. I am in awe that a building this massive and beautiful was constructed so many years ago - without the modern building methods. Lets pray the fire is extinguished before total destruction.
I know!!! This is horrible. What a tragedy. A gorgeous cathedral dating back to the 12th century... :(
I am in awe that a building this massive and beautiful was constructed so many years ago - without the modern building methods. .
Two words: Flying Buttress
A marvel of architectural innovation 800 years ago and effective enough to last this long.
I've had the good fortune of touring the cathedral on each of my 3 visits to the city. I was hoping for another opportunity at some point since I seemed to appreciate it more with each previous visit. The last time we were there we had the opportunity to explore an active archaeological dig underneath the cathedral where the remains of an older Roman structure existed.
We were just there in January and it was magnificent. I would rather tour the cathedral than most any other monument.
iris lilies
4-15-19, 3:54pm
We were just there in January and it was magnificent. I would rather tour the cathedral than most any other monument.
Wow, that was recent.
I have not been to Paris and I’m not sure that I ever will go at this point in life.
This fire is shocking and awful.
Very sad. I'm wondering how a a fire in a building so heavily trafficked could have gotten so badly out of hand, but I suppose we'll find out in due course. At least it appears no one has been hurt.
Losing any historical building is a real tragedy, let alone one so grand. I'm still grieving the library at Alexandria.
ETA: ...which I used to visit as a girl...:~)
It made a lasting impression and I can still picture it clearly. So sad!
Two words: Flying Buttress
A marvel of architectural innovation 800 years ago and effective enough to last this long.
The last time we were there we had the opportunity to explore an active archaeological dig underneath the cathedral where the remains of an older Roman structure existed.
Whenever I thought about cathedral construction techniques when reading Ken Follett's "Pillars of the Earth," which is actually set in the 12th century, I would think of Notre Dame with its spire reaching forever.
Losing any historical building is a real tragedy, let alone one so grand. I'm still grieving the library at Alexandria.
ETA: ...which I used to visit as a girl...:~)Rumor has it Apollonius of Rhodes patterned the Sirens in his epic poem Argonautica after a winsome lass named Jane he'd met in Alexandria during his tenure at the library. Hmmm....
I'm wondering how a a fire in a building so heavily trafficked could have gotten so badly out of hand, but I suppose we'll find out in due course.
It's heartbreaking to watch.
I suspect the issue with the fire at Notre Dame is the same as it is with many other structures of its era and many centuries later: difficulty in integrating fire-suppression technologies like sprinklers and alarm systems without damaging the integrity and esthetics of the structure. In addition, it was mentioned that the building was undergoing an extensive renovation by the roof and workers were present when the fire broke out. So it is possible that a worker's torch or some spark lit old dried out frame timbers or other materials (wouldn't want to be that guy). Even the notion of dumping large quantities of water on the fire are complicated by the age of the building.
gimmethesimplelife
4-15-19, 5:24pm
So far as I understand no one's been hurt and I have yet to hear the T word being thrown around.....this to me is indeed a big loss but things could have been worse. I continue to hope that it's not an act of terrorism. Rob
I read that it was undergoing some renovations. Perhaps some equipment sparked a flame? Who knows.
I visited Notre Dame in my teens as a part of a tour/homestay program. It is one of the very few remaining memories that stand out from that trip.
Horrible and tragic. Such majestic buildings---it never crosses our minds that something like this would happen to them, they're so much a part of the city's persona, culture and history. Imagine, its building was begun more than 1,000 years ago!
What strikes me is that Paris is on a river, yet I didn't see any aircraft dumping water like we see here every fire season. Maybe they aren't so equipped?
Appolonius clearly never heard Jane sing...
Appolonius clearly never heard Jane sing...
Or maybe he did. Perhaps the Sirens didn't lure sailors to their demise, but rather drove them there.
Translations can be tricky.
Yes--I'd hate to be the worker who set off that blaze. What an awful burden to bear!
gimmethesimplelife
4-15-19, 6:07pm
Yes--I'd hate to be the worker who set off that blaze. What an awful burden to bear!Agreed. I couldn't imagine living with that. Rob
iris lilies
4-15-19, 6:18pm
So far as I understand no one's been hurt and I have yet to hear the T word being thrown around.....this to me is indeed a big loss but things could have been worse. I continue to hope that it's not an act of terrorism. Rob
I never suspected terrorism at first. Interesting where your mind goes.
Having worked in historic buildings under construction, I know that construction fires are very feared and fairly common. So far in news reports that is what is suspected here.
iris lilies
4-15-19, 6:19pm
I read that it was undergoing some renovations. Perhaps some equipment sparked a flame? Who knows.
I visited Notre Dame in my teens as a part of a tour/homestay program. It is one of the very few remaining memories that stand out from that trip.
Horrible and tragic. Such majestic buildings---it never crosses our minds that something like this would happen to them, they're so much a part of the city's persona, culture and history. Imagine, its building was begun more than 1,000 years ago!
What strikes me is that Paris is on a river, yet I didn't see any aircraft dumping water like we see here every fire season. Maybe they aren't so equipped?
You and Trump. Great minds, etc.
What strikes me is that Paris is on a river, yet I didn't see any aircraft dumping water like we see here every fire season. Maybe they aren't so equipped?
In my experience, you don't just "dump" water on a fire, especially in a building that has had its structural integrity compromised by the heat.
Water is used in a fairly precise and efficient way when really putting out a fire, it's more complicated than the Boy Scouts prepared me for :-)
A very small amount of water delivered to the seat of the fire can produce great results. Lots of water in the wrong place just makes a mess and causes more damage.
I'd love to see what their fire preplan looked like for this building. Around here, we have plans on file for every significant building in our community, with details on what to worry about, and how best to approach dealing with the building.
I can't imagine trying to fight the Notre Dame fire once it got going and into the wood support structures and the attic/roof spaces.
So far as I understand no one's been hurt and I have yet to hear the T word being thrown around.....this to me is indeed a big loss but things could have been worse. I continue to hope that it's not an act of terrorism. Rob
I think you were the first to mention "the T word". Kudos!
gimmethesimplelife
4-15-19, 6:45pm
I never suspected terrorism at first. Interesting where your mind goes.
Having worked in historic buildings under construction, I know that construction fires are very feared and fairly common. So far in news reports that is what is suspected here.Given that Paris has been the site of terrorist acts in the past, is it so far fetched that anyone's mind might go there? Intetesting take on your part, IL, and I say this with no snark. Intetesting take. Rob
Given that Paris has been the site of terrorist acts in the past, is it so far fetched that anyone's mind might go there?
In the absence of data, yes, it is a bit far-fetched.
The organized attacks in 2015 were quite different in character than a single-building fire. To leap to the conclusion that this particular fire may be terror related just tells me that the terrorists have done a fine job in making people see monsters under the bed.
iris lilies
4-15-19, 6:55pm
In the absence of data, yes, it is a bit far-fetched.
The organized attacks in 2015 were quite different in character than a single-building fire. To leap to the conclusion that this particular fire may be terror related just tells me that the terrorists have done a fine job in making people see monsters under the bed.
Ditto. Terrorism didnt occur to me.
Maybe some terrosits groups will try to take credit, though. But only very low level ignorant ones because fire science will identify the source of this tragedy fire post haste.
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/apr/15/notre-dame-arson-terrorism-ruled-out-now-paris-pro/
Ditto. Terrorism didnt occur to me.
Maybe some terrosits groups will try to take credit, though. But only very low level ignorant ones because fire science will identify the source of this tragedy fire post haste.
Well, it's tricky business, as fire likes to destroy evidence, and firefighters who are fighting fires are pretty good at destroying evidence while they are doing their work.
They sent me to arson investigation school a few years back, because we treat every fire scene here as a potential crime scene until we rule out that possibility, and they wanted me to know what to look for, and what not to destroy until we properly observed/documented it.
Generally the investigation takes days-to-weeks, because it's a pain sifting through the rubble. Sometimes you get lucky and have a firm idea of the cause of the fire early on.
The Paris authorities have already issued a statement on the matter, so I presume they found a plausible, non-troubling source of ignition already.
Whenever I thought about cathedral construction techniques when reading Ken Follett's "Pillars of the Earth," which is actually set in the 12th century, I would think of Notre Dame with its spire reaching forever.
I loved that book.
There have been a number of recent attacks on Catholic churches in France. Arson, vandalism, desecration of sacred items. So for those of us who are aware of what has been going on, thinking terrorism is not far-fetched.
I’m devastated by the loss of the windows.
I heard on the news tonight that they didn’t want to dump huge amounts of water on it from above because they feared it would collapse too many of the remaining structures.
A reminder that all things are impermanent.
There have been a number of recent attacks on Catholic churches in France. Arson, vandalism, desecration of sacred items. So for those of us who are aware of what has been going on, thinking terrorism is not far-fetched.
Not to mention the Yellow Vest protesters. They took on the Arc de Triomphe. Other people took on the New York World Trade Center and the Pentagon. While my first thought about Notre Dame was "construction-related accident", thinking the fire might be terrorism is not unreasonable.
While my first thought about Notre Dame was "construction-related accident", thinking the fire might be terrorism is not unreasonable.
Forming an opinion before having evidence in front of you is, well, poor fire investigative practice. It shuts off the mind to weighing the evidence honestly and openly.
iris lilies
4-15-19, 10:10pm
Forming an opinion before having evidence in front of you is, well, poor fire investigative practice. It shuts off the mind to weighing the evidence honestly and openly.
Well, but we are all just internet doobs shooting from the hip. Its what we do.:~)
Please do not hire us to investigate a fire or the murder of JonBenet Ramsey.
Check out the Daily Mail online. Article with tons of pics of the aftermath. One rose window survives. That gives me great joy!
ToomuchStuff
4-16-19, 10:43am
Losing any historical building is a real tragedy, let alone one so grand. I'm still grieving the library at Alexandria.
ETA: ...which I used to visit as a girl...:~)
Library fines are still accruing though!
So was anybody killed? Hurt?
A building this historical, and one that has been through much (WWII), I expect it is well documented, and will be rebuilt. (heck with the building, what about the people) How long until you can buy a charred T shirt?
hash tag, Quasimodo needs a new home.
One firefighter was badly hurt, I’ve heard, but nothing more and no idea on how it happened.
I heard that they suspect that the fire started with some of the renovation work being done.
Curious.....on my way home from buying groceries in our small town, I was getting ready to pass a really nice house that I always notice. It's on a very small piece of property in the woods, but it's beautiful...brick. They have a little gazebo and it's all very beautiful in the woods. Well, today as I passed it............It had all burned down!! I couldn't believe what I was seeing. Anyhow........it's such a small scale compared to the Cathedral........but devastating to the owners, nonetheless. No one was hurt. But it was shocking to see.
I was moved by the news showing people in Paris, standing together in large groups, stunned, watching the cathedral burn, quietly singing. Today I'm feeling bad for everyone everywhere..........
"Library fines are still accruing though!"
You might expect amnesty, but nooo...
I understand they managed to salvage a considerable number of treasures. I hate when monuments, museums, irreplaceable buildings are destroyed, as so many have been throughout history. At least this one will be restored.
dado potato
4-16-19, 8:12pm
The rooster from the top of the spire has been recovered. Dented, but otherwise OK.
The organ survived intact.
The news is not all bad.
I was surprised people believe the actual thorn crown that was on Jesus's head was in the church and rescued. The crucifixion was a disgrace at the time, not something I imagine early Christians looking for relics of. The resurrection, now that's another story, one of triumph.
I was surprised people believe the actual thorn crown that was on Jesus's head was in the church and rescued. The crucifixion was a disgrace at the time, not something I imagine early Christians looking for relics of. The resurrection, now that's another story, one of triumph.
If your faith tradition doesn’t include such things, it is easy to discount them.
On the news, it looked like the crown of thorns they saved was golden.....?? Or maybe they took the original one and dipped it in something later??
sweetana3
4-17-19, 10:02am
here is more than anyone probably wants to know about the purported "crown of thorns" that was stored in Notre Dame. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_of_thorns
Teacher Terry
4-17-19, 11:15am
I am glad some items were saved. As far as the original crown fairy tales are free.
How long until you can buy a charred T shirt?
.
Undoubtedly the char will look like the face of the Virgin Mary.
Undoubtedly the char will look like the face of the Virgin Mary.
:laff: (No disrespect intended).
On the news, it looked like the crown of thorns they saved was golden.....?? Or maybe they took the original one and dipped it in something later??
It's quite common for relics to be put in a case, called a reliquary.
ToomuchStuff
4-18-19, 12:32am
It will be interesting to get the report on how the fire started. While we don't know for sure it was from the construction, I've heard Quasimodo has a hunch.
Teacher Terry
4-18-19, 1:04am
I am glad they were able to save much of it. It’s history and irreplaceable. When we are in Europe we love going through the old churches, castles and ruins. I hope they are preserved for future generations.
While I agree with you about preservation of the history, many countries are finding that the cost of doing so is prohibitive.
Add in the cruises which are causing problems around the world. Cruise ships drop off their guests who race through the area being visited creating very crowded conditions, spending little and race back to the cruise ship. Little support for the areas that need financial investment to survive.
Venice has forced cruise ships to anchor far offshore for that reason according to different reports. The ships were causing huge water surges that compound existing water problems, excess crowds who spend very little and then leaving.
Perhaps for areas who have limited tourism, cruise ships are a bonus but for the well-established tourism areas, ....
A friend was telling me that old Quebec City was their favourite place to visit each fall. Once they added cruise ship tours down the St Lawrence River from New York etc., it has become a zoo whenever the cruise ship arrives. People race through the shops, crowd those visiting and staying for a few days and spend little.
I've heard Quasimodo has a hunch.
Groan...
a zoo whenever the cruise ship arrives. People race through the shops, crowd those visiting and staying for a few days and spend little.
Must be Disney cruises. The cruises I've been on, the vast majority of passengers are too old to race through anywhere. :) And I've seen no shortage of shopping bags among those waiting to get back on the ship at departure.
As someone who enjoys cruising, however, I would have no problem paying a fee to places I visit. It doesn't take rocket science to identify that dropping several hundred people off each ship in the harbor has a straining effect on most tourist destinations. I would want it bundled into the cost of the cruise rather than an imposed as a kind of entry fee. But I would have no issue contributing to keep La Bellisima bellisima. Like sports stadiums and mega shopping centers, I think the economic impact of visitors is overstated relative to what it really costs to keep the lights on.
It will be interesting to get the report on how the fire started. While we don't know for sure it was from the construction, I've heard Quasimodo has a hunch.
:laff:
Add in the cruises which are causing problems around the world. Cruise ships drop off their guests who race through the area being visited creating very crowded conditions, spending little and race back to the cruise ship. Little support for the areas that need financial investment to survive.
Venice has forced cruise ships to anchor far offshore for that reason according to different reports. The ships were causing huge water surges that compound existing water problems, excess crowds who spend very little and then leaving.
Perhaps for areas who have limited tourism, cruise ships are a bonus but for the well-established tourism areas, ....
A friend was telling me that old Quebec City was their favourite place to visit each fall. Once they added cruise ship tours down the St Lawrence River from New York etc., it has become a zoo whenever the cruise ship arrives. People race through the shops, crowd those visiting and staying for a few days and spend little.
We've never been on a cruise, and I've often wondered about what it is like to be on those floating cities. DH and I have determined that if we ever go on a cruise, we'll go on one of those Viking River Cruises, which are smaller and slower. A lot more expensive, but I'd rather go on one River Cruise than three Norwegian/Disney/Carnival cruises
iris lilies
4-18-19, 8:48am
We've never been on a cruise, and I've often wondered about what it is like to be on those floating cities. DH and I have determined that if we ever go on a cruise, we'll go on one of those Viking River Cruises, which are smaller and slower. A lot more expensive, but I'd rather go on one River Cruise than three Norwegian/Disney/Carnival cruises
me too, the Viking
river cruises are more appealing. An Ocean cruise is a big Nope for me.
We've never been on a cruise, and I've often wondered about what it is like to be on those floating cities. DH and I have determined that if we ever go on a cruise, we'll go on one of those Viking River Cruises, which are smaller and slower. A lot more expensive, but I'd rather go on one River Cruise than three Norwegian/Disney/Carnival cruises
We never wanted to cruise but sister wanted one for her 65th. So we went. Terrible waste of $11000 by the time we got home. (passports, flights/cabs, hotels/meals before/after). Sister was happy. Never again! When we were on shore, there wasn't enough time to do the things we really would have liked to do had we been in control of our time.
We'll enjoy the USA one state visit at a time on OUR schedule.:)
Teacher Terry
4-18-19, 10:21am
The Caribbean islands depend on the cruise ships. Europe is much less accessible than the IS so do it while youngsters unless you never want to go. We did 4 nights in New Orleans plus a 8 day cruise for5k including airfare. The river cruise are not my thing as during the day they drag everyone around versus picking your own tour. No choice of night entertainment , etc.
Yeah, one of the nice things about the "floating cities" is that you can be as roped in or as aloof as you want. We make it a point to find the quiet places on board (library, parts of the spa, etc.). I rather like that there is a choice of entertainment and musical styles and dining venues. There has to be some structure when you're wrangling a thousand people every 24 hours. But even when we travel as a group DW and I are not prone to do what everyone else is doing. We can disappear pretty well on a cruise ship.
We found that staying on the ship when everyone else fought to get off was the better more relaxed option. We pretty much had the place to ourselves and did not have to pay for overpriced, hot, and crowded sightseeing on islands we were not terribly interested in seeing. At one stop, at least 7 huge cruise ships docked at the same time and all had to tender in to port. Madness.
Since the ships have gotten bigger, husband refuses to go on a cruise. Too much food, too much alcohol, and too much regimentation.
Teacher Terry
4-18-19, 9:11pm
If I didn’t want to get off at the ports I wouldn’t take a cruise but some people do that. We don’t take the enormous ships but take the mid size ones. Don’t eat or drink too much. We get tons of exercise so as not to gain weight. Except for getting off the ship you can set your own schedule.
SteveinMN
4-18-19, 10:24pm
We get tons of exercise so as not to gain weight.
I've never gained weight on a cruise, even in the days I could eat anything I wanted. Too busy moving in port sightseeing, doing laps around the ship, walking around from place to place on the ship. Certainly cruising is not for everyone but it's not the same experience for everyone either.
If I didn’t want to get off at the ports I wouldn’t take a cruise but some people do that.
Shudder at the thought....like a hamster in a wheel. ugh.:treadmill: i know there are people who would see nothing if they didn't get on a cruise ship d/t immobility. I'm glad it's available to them.
Hmmm....how did this thread turn into a cruise thread? Maybe we should start a different thread about it?
Teacher Terry
4-19-19, 11:13am
Back on track a Catholic posted on Facebook that Notre Dame doesn’t need financial help to rebuild as they are worth 30 billion. The Catholic Church and many others like the mega churches,
TV churches have gotten rich off the little guy.
It appears that three beehives in the cathedral were spared. I'm pretty sure St. Ambrose intervened.:thankyou:
Back on track a Catholic posted on Facebook that Notre Dame doesn’t need financial help to rebuild as they are worth 30 billion. The Catholic Church and many others like the mega churches,
TV churches have gotten rich off the little guy.
Well, if a Catholic posted it on Facebook, it must be true.
iris lilies
4-19-19, 11:41am
Back on track a Catholic posted on Facebook that Notre Dame doesn’t need financial help to rebuild as they are worth 30 billion. The Catholic Church and many others like the mega churches,
TV churches have gotten rich off the little guy.
That wont stop the CatholicChurch from putting their hands out for contribution. And really, who could blame them because Notre Dam is more than a church,It is a worldwide cultural icon
My understanding was that Notre Dame is the property of the French government and not the Church.
Around 1905 or so, the French gov’t took over church ownership. The Catholic Church has use of Notre Dame in perpetuity.
It appears that three beehives in the cathedral were spared. I'm pretty sure St. Ambrose intervened.:thankyou:
YAY!! Sweet!
It’s been unreal reading the comments from other people on FB posts about the ND fundraising. Multiple people have been saying the money should be going to Flint, MI for the lead in water issue. Mind you, these comments were on articles about the two FRENCH billionaires donating to the ND rebuild. Why in the world would French billionaires donate toward something in the US. People can be so ignorant
It was really nice to see that this has inspired people to donate toward the rebuilding of the 3 (?) African-American churches that were recently torched.
Tradd, I thought the same thing. So many are quick to tell others what to do with their own money. Bet they would not be so receptive if it was their money. Social media has really brought out the ugly in all manner of issues.
Multiple people have been saying the money should be going to Flint, MI for the lead in water issue. Mind you, these comments were on articles about the two FRENCH billionaires donating to the ND rebuild. Why in the world would French billionaires donate toward something in the US. People can be so ignorant.
It is odd to think that French billionaires would want to fund fixing an American city’s problem.
I think the broader sentiment, though, is that, geographic distance aside, people (recipients and non-recipients of the funds alike) keep hearing that there isn’t enough money to fix poisonous water systems or American commonwealths ravaged by a hurricane but those better able to foot the bills open their wallets wide when an architectural marvel and landmark is damaged — even though the cost of repair and even possible negligence are unknown at this point. This on the heels of the Yellow Vest protests in France which, though unfocused, highlight the gap between the /hoi polloi/ and those who claim the means don’t exist to address their issues.
I get that people should be able to donate to causes which speak to them, but to plead poverty for taxation and then out-do each other in writing checks to Notre Dame is Not A Good Look.
iris lilies
4-19-19, 5:26pm
It is odd to think that French billionaires would want to fund fixing an American city’s problem.
...I get that people should be able to donate to causes which speak to them, but to plead poverty for taxation and then out-do each other in writing checks to Notre Dame is Not A Good Look.
oh no! Disagree! It seems reasonable to not want tax dollars to go to certain things that the feds cover and instead use that money for issues dear to our hearts. I find that neither hypocritical or wrong.
I think anyone in this country lamenting French billionaires donating money to whatever they choose instead of a favorite local cause are not worthy of comment, and I'd be surprised if those French billionaires are also pleading poverty to taxation. That's the province of the Yellow Vest protesters who seem to have a legitimate complaint that the price of socialism has gone beyond their ability to pay so they may not want to be forced to pay for Notre Dame repairs on top of all the other expenses associated with Utopia.
Teacher Terry
4-19-19, 6:21pm
I find it ludicrous that Americans would think French billionaires are going to pay for our problems. Maybe a good thing I haven’t kept up on the news lately.
I heard that Trump is visiting South Bend to survey the damage (har har)
oh no! Disagree! It seems reasonable to not want tax dollars to go to certain things that the feds cover and instead use that money for issues dear to our hearts. I find that neither hypocritical or wrong.
Notre Dame is an unusual case in what the building is used for, ownership, etc. The whole issue of taxation and what it pays for is a mine field I’m not going to wade into here. Nor am I so familiar with French politics that I can recite the taxation preferences of the billionaires who have opened up their chequebooks for ND restoration.
I’m simply saying that this is a very generous response by people of substantial means who (at least in the US and, if human behavior extrapolates, France) tend to vote for politicians with a skewed view of what is worth repair and what is not. The ones passed over certainly notice.
Then they vote the same people back into office...
Notre Dame is an unusual case in what the building is used for, ownership, etc. It's not unusual for France, it seems that after the glorious Revolution and Napoleon's rise to power all churches and cathedrals were seized and made the property of the state. This monopoly on public churches remained until 1905 when the government realized they may never have nice things again if they didn't allow non-state actors to get back into the business of salvation. Of course, the state kept all the good historic ones but after that point allowed the church to build new ones of their own.
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