View Full Version : Siblings now estranged, estate issues were last straw and maybe for me
I have posted for some time in the Organizing Forum about the cleanout of my parents' home before and after their deaths plus the resulting estate issues. To recap, Mom died in 2015 and Dad in 2017. They left behind a crapload of stuff that we started cleaning out in the time between their deaths plus afterward. I am oldest of 3 sisters, with our middle sister (MS) who is the executor of the estate.
In a nutshell, MS was on track with getting the estate settled for the first 6 months after Dad passed away. Then things came to a screeching halt last spring. In spite of her statements that she would get to the estate sale in the fall with the house sale to follow, fall has come and gone with no communication from her about the estate. In fact she admitted to youngest sister (YS) that "she hadn't done much" several months ago. This past winter, YS had enough and contacted the estate lawyer outlining her various concerns and asking him to follow up with MS. This sparked WWIII with MS suddenly waking up and making claims about "all the work she as done" never mind it's her legal duty to communicate this and we have heard nothing plus her earlier admission to YS that stated the opposite.
Other than some emails exchanged at the recommendation of the attorney, they are not speaking. MS's last birthday passed last week and there was no acknowledgement from YS which is a first. I am on speaking terms with both of them even as both have stated that their relationship with each other is over. That may be the case, time will tell. Things are fine between me and YS, however talking to MS is like getting hit with a truck. She's pretty angry over the letter and considers it a terrible betrayal and making her look bad rather than a wake up call. Ok, it is those things but she is also missing the point, the estate going on too long. Going all Woodward and Bernstein on me, I get quizzed on what I knew and when I knew it regards to the letter (truth: I didn't know until after it was sent). I get quizzed on my communications with YS. I have told MS that this is an issue between them and I am not getting in the middle however MS is so suspicious that I don't think she believes me. MS also made some admissions to me in the middle of her rants which also make me question she is really doing with the money. She's been caught in a few lies and I can't pin her down on what her plans are with the estate going forward.
There have been longstanding issues between the two of them that have festered for years. In addition, around the time our father passed some things went on between MS and YS, who was going through a personal crisis at home on top of our father's death, MS behaved in ways that made things worse. Even YS husband is done with her. So YS felt she had nothing to lose over raising hell over the estate. I have to agree that MS has often treated YS terribly unfortunately with our own mother telling YS to suck it up because family.
So, while I am saddened to see what has happened between the two of them, I am not surprised. On one hand I am glad to see YS stand up for herself, she has been pushed around and given up a lot to satisfy my family's needs nearly to the detriment of her own marriage. One reason why our relationship is good is because I have been the supportive sister over the years. YS got a lot of grief for her life choices, which were nothing radical, but her biggest sin was that she moved 1200 miles away. Sounds pathetic but that's how my immediate family rolls, there's been a ton of unrealistic and unhealthy expectations that never died in the face of real life.
MS is the type of person who will hold a grudge forever, even on behalf of other people. She is carrying forward my mother's anger over past things, including that over YS moving away. She harbors my mom's anger at me for not calling / visiting / doing enough. She is suspicious that no amount of reassurance or fact checking can assuage. She know I have the better relationship with YS. In spite of saying she will not put me in the middle, she tries to put me in the middle. I try to steer her toward simply handling my parents estate, to get it done in spite of the letter, but MS is doubling down. Instead of getting a move on, in spite of her recent claims she was working on the estate sale and she would "let me know" I have heard nothing....again. There's now questions of what she is doing with the estate money in my mind because of one key admission she made in one of her rants.
I feel like I am grieving all over again. The loss of the relationship between the 3 of us. It's me and YS or me and MS. And I don't think I can count on the relationship with MS in the future because I just see no good end to his. We need to get the estate done, but simply telling MS to get it done is a sticking point because it's "siding" with YS. Even though it's her legal duty in any case. I was considering giving her POA for financial and healthcare in the event of DH's death before mine but I don't think I can trust her now.
I was hoping that maybe the 3 of us could move on with minimal acrimony. The one sticking point was MS as she has no quibbles about saying things to us that if the shoe were on the other foot, we would never live it down. I guess that was too much to hope for.
Sorry for the rant. Any feedback is welcome.
Families are strange beasts. Today we said good-bye to BIL, who is moving from the East Coast to the West Coast. My DH is his only sibling, but when the Uber came to take BIL, I called out to DH, "[BIL] is leaving! Come say goodbye!" and DH responded, "I'm getting dressed!" And he barely got a wave out the door, while I was busy doing hugs and taking pictures of the pull-away.
We don't know when BIL/DH will meet again, and the strangeness in the relationship which only got worse with BIL living with us is, in my mind, sad. DH would get touchy if I spent too much time talking to BIL. He would accuse BIL of taking advantage of us (which frankly, he did, but not to the extent DH says).
I get upset when material things become wedges in relationships, which frequently happens when estates have to get settled. Try to hold on to the relationships you have--three is a terrible number when it comes to close relationships, but it sounds like you are really doing the best you can to mediate. You can't do anything about the relationship between MS and YS. As far as the practicalities of getting the estate settled for once and for all, it sounds like you're between a rock and a hard place. You may be shunned by MS, too, if you try to prod things along.
Do you have any less emotionally involved third parties, like family friends, who could intervene with MS?
Do you have any less emotionally involved third parties, like family friends, who could intervene with MS?
I couldn't ask anyone to directly intervene as that would send MS over the edge, aka betrayal and making her look bad just like the letter. She's caught up on looking bad even as she behaves in ways that make her look exactly that. However, I have one cousin that she will talk to. This cousin got her to move on calling hospice for our mother 4 years ago even as YS and I were literally begging her to do it. It so happens we are meeting at this cousin's house for Easter this Sunday and I know MS will be asked about what's going on. Cousin will ask the same questions as everyone but it's more that MS is more likely to listen to her.
iris lilies
4-16-19, 3:51pm
Saguaro, How much is this estate worth? Your best guess I mean? Whatever’s left will be divided three ways, right? Or are there other people or entities that get assets from your father’s estate?
Sometimes money is just not worth pursuing. If it is a small amount, a few thousand, I wouldn’t goof around with it I would just mentally turn it off and forget about it. But if it’s a significant amount, yeah it’s worth hanging in there and working with an attorney so that your MS does her duty.
And yes, it is likely she is stealing from the estate, people like your sister always do because she feels so entitled —she works so hard! she is so so put upon! and etc. That’s how people like her justify theft to themselves
@iris illies, the value of the house and property is considerable enough about 300K so worth hanging in there for. The remainder of the retirement account was 30K from which MS has paid expenses and I imagine by the time all is done it will be gone. MS maintains there's 30K in there now but that was the original amount a year and a half ago so no way can that be true.
YS and DH are convinced she is stealing. Given she has not been honest and the length of time, I am thinking they are right, it was something I did consider before but not as likely as grief / control / martyrdom issues. Now it's at the forefront of my mind.
Another scenario is legally justifying getting more than her share. MS said something me in her last conversation that she was paying her husband and her kids to help work on the estate. She was ranting that it wasn't their job so begs the question of why did she let them? Also another poster here had pointed out that the longer this goes on, the more MS can claim compensation from the estate for all that she has done. Part of the issue with YS that MS does not like BIL (YS husband) and admitted to YS last year that she did not want him (BIL) "to benefit from our parents". That is ridiculous as inheritance does not go to him legally, yes he still benefits as a spouse, it's the way it goes. Yet, she wants to pay her own husband and kids. But she's caught up on who is "worthy" which is not her determination to make, her job is to follow the will and distribute the estate as written.
The will divides the estate 3 ways between the 3 of us. It hit me that by dragging it out, the money gets spent down, real estate value could go down, we all get a cut of a smaller pie. However by claiming compensation for all that she and her family have done, she could make up for that difference, at least in part. In short an uneven split with her getting more as the more deserving one. Now that compensation would have to be approved by YS and me in closing the estate. YS has indicated she may not approve anything at this point. I don't know what I would do until I see numbers. If a few thousand, as you say, it's not worth making a fuss about and write it off as a cost of getting it done and off our backs. MS is already paying a heavy cost IMHO in terms of a critical family relationship, a few grand on her side will not be worth it but it's her problem.
ETA: There are no other people or entities to get assets. All bills were paid and no creditors made any claims. I am expecting I will get one third of the house sale (forgetting the retirement as gone) and market is very good in that neighborhood right now.
iris lilies
4-16-19, 5:01pm
Well yeah, $100,000 is worth going after.
It is common for large estates, larger than yours, to be pizzed away by executors and by their legal representatives in court, fighting about this and that.
I would be consulting the attorney watching over this deal and would forget about tip toeing around your MS. But certainly if you can het her to move on it without legal action, it is better for all.
I would be consulting the attorney watching over this deal and would forget about tip toeing around your MS. But certainly if you can het her to move on it without legal action, it is better for all.
saguaro, I'm sorry this is lingering on. It makes nothing better, regardless of the money involved.
My (unsolicited) take on this is that MS has a legal duty to take care of this regardless of how she "feels" about anyone involved. Can the estate attorney be the one put into the middle? He does not come with the baggage either sister has and could stress the obligation of the role (and maybe even dispassionately suggest that someone else could handle it if she wanted to give it up [I know; not likely]).
It's sad how death and money so often make people weird.
Teacher Terry
4-16-19, 6:09pm
Your ms is acting irrationally and I also wouldn’t be surprised if she was stealing. I would see if the lawyer can move this along otherwise they might claim a fortune saying they worked so long to clean it out. No matter what you do your relationship with MS probably won’t survive but it’s not your fault.
I concur. The Lawyer needs to get this done. 4y is waaaaaay long enough.
Thanks all. @SteveinMN and @TeacherTerry, yes, MS is being irrational, and honestly both YS and I think she has some serious issues herself. These past 4-5 years has given me a front row seat to her irrationality, emotional volatility and flat-out abusiveness. She has always had these tendencies but it's gotten a lot worse as she has gotten older. She states she is aware of her legal duty but still is caught up in this idea of people being worthy, it's a clear undercurrent in talking about the estate and who gets what including my uncle requesting things like our grandparents' photo albums. She is resisting his request because she has to go through it and take out pictures. Yes, she thinks she can do that because she doesn't like my cousins (uncle's youngest daughters) and is caught up in that eventually he will give them the pictures. So what? The cousins are family and are entitled to pictures, end of story. If they want them after their father passes, fine but MS gets caught up in what people will do the items they get.
I have a hunch that contacting the attorney did get MS to move on thing in spite of her various claims, rants and overtures about doubling down. First off, YS finally got the items that my parents wished her to have after MS made claims that she didn't know where they were after initially locating them and promising to send them. MS makes it sound like she was doing YS a favor in sending these things but the main fact was that YS did get them. That said something. MS also confirmed to me about an item I can take, something she had been waffling on. Based on this progress, I think that attorney might have gotten through to MS but no way will she admit it. She has not communicated any further progress so questions remain. I know YS is planning to follow up with the attorney to check in on what has been done in the next couple of weeks.
I may get a feel for things after this Sunday as I know MS will be questioned about her progress by relatives. These are my mom's relatives including aforementioned cousin, I have fielded questions from them already and it's clear they think something is wrong here. They will not be shy about asking, in fact there's one uncle who is notoriously blunt. That could be interesting but I will let her field the questions. I might get some answers there even if she can't be arsed to communicate it directly to me.
Contacting the attorney myself is on the table but I want to get a picture of what's really happening (or not) before I go that route.
I think in this case, saguaro, your best hope is the outcome that leaves the shallowest cuts and bruises.
If an actual estate is being probated, an accounting will have to be filed with the court to be approved. I've seen judges question the fiduciary about expenses. If it's a trust and MS is the trustee, she owes the other beneficiaries an accounting. I understand that what is supposed to happen and what actually happens can be wildly disparate things. I just hope MS is totally aware of her responsibilities.
I think in this case, saguaro, your best hope is the outcome that leaves the shallowest cuts and bruises.
Thanks, Steve. YS is unpacking a lot of emotional stuff from over the last 20 years, it's not just all the things that happened recently. She mentioned to me that she finally wants to live her life after giving up so much time and attention to the family to the detriment of other things in her life including her marriage. Contacting the attorney was a clear sign that she's done and is standing up for herself. I think MS is shocked but also devastated that this is happening. MS and YS were close in the years before they each married. I have advised MS to not do anything rash (meaning anything to punish YS) that might damage the relationship further. She may regret that later.
If an actual estate is being probated, an accounting will have to be filed with the court to be approved. I've seen judges question the fiduciary about expenses. If it's a trust and MS is the trustee, she owes the other beneficiaries an accounting. I understand that what is supposed to happen and what actually happens can be wildly disparate things. I just hope MS is totally aware of her responsibilities.
MS claims she knows her responsibilities however it does not totally ring true. One of those responsibilities is communicating with the beneficiaries and she has not done that. It's interesting she made a lot of noise about knowing her responsibilities after YS contacted the attorney.
I know of an executor to be questioned by a judge just before closing the estate. My MIL was questioned over some distributions she made just before closing out her parents' estate with the probate court. The judge definitely wanted an explanation that required she appear in court. It was all good, but she was pretty nervous that day. I am not sure MS understands that she could be questioned and if it's not satisfactory, she could be held financially responsible and pay back the estate.
Simplemind
4-17-19, 6:11pm
She may know her responsibilities but she is not conducting business by them. As a beneficiary you can ask for an accounting at any time. It would be interesting to see how she is accounting for her time. It was very clear to me that I needed to move quickly as well as get the most I could for the sale of any property. If I had undersold something just to get it out of my hair, my siblings could have shown that and I would be liable for the difference. NOT that any of that occurred BUT I was very aware of the hot potato I was holding. They were also gracious in the end due to our attorney as well as my gnats ass documentation of down to the quarter hour of any work I did. They allowed me more money for my efforts. I could have taken it regardless but it was important to me that they agreed due to the documentation that was put before them. IF either one of them had been the trustee instead of me, you can bet I would have been on it to make sure things were moving and if they were not then they would have been removed as trustee. That option might be in your trust as well if you and YS are successor trustees. Your MS may be upset that pushing it makes her look bad but the fact is that not getting it finalized IS bad for everybody..... not just her. Time is not your friend and neither is your sister at this point. Her responsibility is to be accountable and being accountable means producing results. Is it possible that there could be some mental/emotional issues or even...… gulp...… cognitive issues? If so, I know one hates to rock the boat but you should really push for your rights here.
This would be so frustrating to me that I would walk away and never speak of it again. And I would be willing to give up my inheritance for that peace of mind.
Teacher Terry
4-18-19, 10:27am
Each child deserves their share and walking away rewards bad behavior. No way would it do that.
S Is it possible that there could be some mental/emotional issues or even...… gulp...… cognitive issues? If so, I know one hates to rock the boat but you should really push for your rights here.
Both YS and I think there's some mental / emotional issues at play. She was on track for the first several months getting various estate issues settled but once it came down to the last step which was selling the house, then things came to a screeching halt. At first, YS and I thought she was busy as her youngest graduated HS at that time and was in process of getting packed off to college but that was done by last August. However, there's no reports of any action or even requests for help from me afterward. I had been regularly helping her out but that came to a halt as well. At first I considered grief and control freak related issues but now I think there's something more serious going on. It could be emotional / mental / cognitive but I have reason to think some of it's deliberate (or all of it if she is stealing) as well
One thing I have seen is that she constantly changes her mind about what to do. When I was helping to clean out, she would tell me before I arrived at the house what the game plan was only to change her mind by the time I got there, as if the prior discussion never happened. She would focus on a certain task saying "we gotta do this NOW", we get to work on it, then shift gears the next week, leaving the prior task where it was with no explanation. Based on our latest conversation it appears that some tasks are still unfinished as they were last year. She would not remember where we left off in our discussions about the estate. She would promise to contact me about needing help, wouldn't follow through but then get angry that I was the one supposed to call her. She flip flops all over the place.
It's recently come to my attention in the last couple of weeks from YS that MS told her that she (MS) was not going to call me it was up to me to call her. This nonsense has been going on since when our mother was dying and MS was contacting YS with updates but not me. Which explains why I was kept out of the loop over things going on with our mother while MS blamed me for not responding to what was going on, in short, reading her mind. I was expected to call and beg for information. Having a reasonable expectation on my end that I would be updated as things happened / changed (Dad was at the forefront of what was happening with Mom along with MS) was apparently some lapse on my part. To say the least, I am pretty angry about that. She has the energy to play these games while stating that she's "doing so much" and "OMG the stress". I have no doubt things were stressful for her but it's pretty disappointing to know that I feel like I was "set up" to fail as a sister / daughter in her view confirming the Bad Daughter narrative that has been attached to me ever since I moved out of the house.
OK, I will stop on the heavy family stuff but getting back to the estate, I know a tough conversation with MS is coming about what she's doing and what her game plan is. That's what I am going to stick with and don't want to hear yet another rant about YS. When asked she deflects by saying that she's going it alone, and any push about making progress always gets turned around to having help that YS and I aren't doing enough, never mind she has had help from us and refused more. She needs to move, the problem is not help, it's that she's not making decisions and she's the one who has the authority to contract with any professionals such as estate sale, junk removal, realtor, etc., this business about getting "no help" is just an excuse. If I cannot get concrete information, then I will inform her that I will have no choice but to ask the probate court for an accounting since she cannot give it to me.
Simplemind
4-18-19, 4:56pm
Were either you or YS named as successor trustees? Is the attorney who wrote the trust available to advise? Hate to say it but I think you have given enough chances and have seen enough red flags. Either she is mentally/cognitively unable to fulfill her obligation or..... she is stealing in various ways from the bottom line. It is time to replace her with one of you or, the attorney. When you talk to her (and there may be no point anymore) it would be good to do it at his office with him as a mediator. He can point out to her where the instructions have fallen through.
I feel for you, I really do. My siblings just didn't want to move on the property issues. They thought we could do all the sales ourselves but they never showed up or if they did things just didn't get done. They were overwhelmed. I was too but I'm also the first born, ass buster, don't like unpleasant things hanging over my head type. The loss of our parents and subsequent family secrets being exposed put them in a tailspin and it felt like everybody just was gut punched and couldn't move forward. In the mean time I had transients moving into our out buildings and thieves showing up in the middle of the night. I had cameras everywhere and my husband and I felt a tremendous burden. Grief was going to have to come later.
Your sis could have several things going on. There may be theft due to cognitive issues. Even though my mom couldn't technically steal from my dad her dementia caused financial issues beyond our wildest dreams. The more issues I found the sicker I got. She must have really been mentally tormented to do some of the things she did. There was no logic to it. My dad was so angry and as I spent days, weeks and months trying to figure things out I was surprised that he wasn't interested in fixing and sometimes stopped me from fixing. An example is not allowing me to talk to the renters after finding out that they had been living rent free for years because my mom never cashed the checks. In the beginning I assumed it was grief, anger and alcohol. It took me a bit to figure out he was in the mid stages of dementia and I needed to legally show he was incompetent and take everything over. It made me the bad guy. My sister and brother could have never stomached being the bad guy (responsible person) even if it was necessary. They had always been very dependent on my folks and they could see the well was about to run dry.
Both my parents lost all organizational skills for bills, tasks, planning of anything from day to day. They could not make decisions. Mail got pushed to the side and things didn't get taken care of. Your sister might be in the beginning stages. My mom was always convinced that I had stolen something of hers but in fact we had many of the same things because our taste was the same. Our family went through complete upheaval with the deaths of our parents. We weren't close growing up but I can say that after all was said and done, we have a deep appreciation for each other and are at peace. I'm still a bit shocked over it because our parents played us like chess pieces.
Hopefully you will be able to get to the center of what is going on with your sister. She is not going to change without being compelled and even then she may prove to be incapable.
Simplemind, I admire how you have come through such a challenging situation.
I guess I don’t really believe that anyone deserves anything. And in my walking away, I wouldn’t continue the relationship with the sibling either.
I must value my peace of mind and freedom, more than money and fairness.
iris lilies
4-19-19, 9:03am
I guess I don’t really believe that anyone deserves anything. And in my walking away, I wouldn’t continue the relationship with the sibling either.
I must value my peace of mind and freedom, more than money and fairness.
For $100,000 I could manage the process of working minimally, politely, and at a distance with a sibling and our overseeing attorney. I would think of it as a job. Of course, depending on how many hours were involved it might not be worth it.
for small money, yeah, not worth it. I dont care about fairness or who deserves their share of an estate or issues of right or wrong in things like this if my life energy is at stake.
Teacher Terry
4-19-19, 11:10am
I was a guardian for someone for 2 years for free and drove 2 hours every week to visit even after she no longer recognized me so yes I would work for 100k.
Simplemind
4-19-19, 11:36am
Tammy I understand how you feel but it isn't that simple in the case of real estate. There is a legal contract that they can't walk away from. They are partners in this home. It isn't just a home with a future pay out but it is a home with a current list of expenses. Utilities, taxes, upkeep...… If this sister isn't doing her duties for the future pay out then she most likely isn't paying close attention to what is going on now. If she defaults then the other two who have been kept in the dark will be left holding the bag. Hopefully she did the end of life taxes for the father as well as the taxes for the value of the trust at his death. Hopefully she is paying the yearly taxes because I can tell you, the IRS doesn't care about your freedom and peace of mind.
iris lilies
4-19-19, 11:38am
Tammy I understand how you feel but it isn't that simple in the case of real estate. There is a legal contract that they can't walk away from. They are partners in this home. It isn't just a home with a future pay out but it is a home with a current list of expenses. Utilities, taxes, upkeep...… If this sister isn't doing her duties for the future pay out then she most likely isn't paying close attention to what is going on now. If she defaults then the other two who have been kept in the dark will be left holding the bag. Hopefully she did the end of life taxes for the father as well as the taxes for the value of the trust at his death. Hopefully she is paying the yearly taxes because I can tell you, the IRS doesn't care about your freedom and peace of mind.
That is a very good point! I suppose one could legally give up all rights and responsibilities to an estate? While it is in probate? I dont know.
Honestly, I am feeling so lucky my parents were destitute. What horrible stories.
Tammy I understand how you feel but it isn't that simple in the case of real estate. There is a legal contract that they can't walk away from. They are partners in this home. It isn't just a home with a future pay out but it is a home with a current list of expenses. Utilities, taxes, upkeep...… If this sister isn't doing her duties for the future pay out then she most likely isn't paying close attention to what is going on now. If she defaults then the other two who have been kept in the dark will be left holding the bag. Hopefully she did the end of life taxes for the father as well as the taxes for the value of the trust at his death. Hopefully she is paying the yearly taxes because I can tell you, the IRS doesn't care about your freedom and peace of mind.
If you are held liable in the longterm, surely that will set the stage for you to get the estate cleared ASAP to reduce your liability. Are you being too patient?
First off @SimpleMind, thanks for weighing in, you certainly had a challenging situation.
To answer some questions, as far as the trust involving us, the original lawyer who drew up the trust is retired and not able to assist.
I know that MS has done the end of life taxes and is keeping up with the expenses on the home. In one of our last conversations, she mentioned getting a 1099 for Dad's retirement account for tax year 2018 and was dealing with that, mentioning that she did the final return the year before (for 2017). She is keeping up on property taxes, I can check via the county treasurer website, there is nothing outstanding, payments are up to date.
Regarding the question that @iris illies raised if one can legally give up all rights to an estate and yes, it is possible in my state. Right now I am not going to do that, but it is one of the options on the table. DH does not want me to give up on the money, it is significant right now but if this drags on long term, it will probably not be worth it. It's still on the table to contact the lawyer myself and the concern I will outline is about any liabilities we face if this is not resolved soon. Right now YS is planning to contact the attorney again to check status as per the attorney's statement that the house will be cleared and up for sale soon. She has put MS on notice that she expects any updates to be addressing that. If nothing comes of it, then I will be taking action with a letter to attorney / petition the court for an accounting of the estate.
@Catherine, I wish my parents left nothing, we would not go through this grief. I had a coworker who told me that he advised his mother to spend her money after his dad died and enjoy her life. When asked about how he felt about not inheriting anything, he said it would be the best thing, no hassles, no problems, no acrimony, just over.
MS has put YS and I through hell over the past 4 and a half years. Even if this resolves tomorrow, I know my relationship with her is forever changed. I am starting some therapy through my workplace EAP to discuss the lingering grief / loss issues that have been preoccupying me, not just the past losses, but the current and future. I don't see this ending in a way that will keep the relationship between me and MS intact.
Teacher Terry
4-19-19, 6:16pm
My siblings have always been difficult and for years I bent over backwards trying to keep the peace. Once my mom died I stopped. My brother quit talking to me and I have no idea why. My sister and I email once a week. Last year when I went home to see my friends I went to see her for a day. My mom spent all her money and we were all glad. She got to vacation and enjoy herself. I don’t miss them at all.
Simplemind
4-19-19, 6:32pm
Saguaro and Teacher Terry.... I wish we lived closer. I would take the two of you out for drinks!!
My husband and I have a saying. If you have watched the Pirates of the Caribbean movies there is a shot of Johnny Depp standing at the top of the mast of his sinking ship as he comes to shore. Just as the ship goes under the surface he lightly steps off onto the dock. We look at our money and the end of our life the same way. At this point none of our kids want to have kids so the line stops with them. None of them have debt or kids to save for college. None of them have ever needed a loan from us. We want to downsize in 10 years and spend ours down so that none of the kids has to care for us and we get to do what we want while we have our health to do it. We call our plan - Johnny Depp'ing it.
Teacher Terry
4-19-19, 7:02pm
SM, that’s a awesome plan. Unless we both die soon there will be no money for our kids. Mine aren’t having kids either. Wish we did live close enough for a drink. My parents were both wonderful people and I miss them. That description made me laugh and I have seen the movie. Most of my friends aren’t close to their siblings. I am much closer to my close friends.
It seems that the executor has the responsibility for the estate. So why would the non-executor children be held responsible for the bills, taxes, etc?
Honest question ...
Saguaro and Teacher Terry.... I wish we lived closer. I would take the two of you out for drinks!!
My husband and I have a saying. If you have watched the Pirates of the Caribbean movies there is a shot of Johnny Depp standing at the top of the mast of his sinking ship as he comes to shore. Just as the ship goes under the surface he lightly steps off onto the dock. We look at our money and the end of our life the same way. At this point none of our kids want to have kids so the line stops with them. None of them have debt or kids to save for college. None of them have ever needed a loan from us. We want to downsize in 10 years and spend ours down so that none of the kids has to care for us and we get to do what we want while we have our health to do it. We call our plan - Johnny Depp'ing it.
@Simplemind, and I could use a drink after this, lol. Johnny Depp'ing it, I love it and exactly describes me and DH. We have no kids and a similar plan, but now I have a really cool name plan, thanks to you.
My siblings have always been difficult and for years I bent over backwards trying to keep the peace. Once my mom died I stopped. My brother quit talking to me and I have no idea why. My sister and I email once a week. Last year when I went home to see my friends I went to see her for a day. My mom spent all her money and we were all glad. She got to vacation and enjoy herself. I don’t miss them at all.
MS was always the difficult one of the 3 of us, even my parents acknowledged that. She was the instigator of most of the conflicts between the 3 of us but after a point I think my parents just gave up and told YS to suck it up because family. By this time, I had moved out but MS and YS were still in the family home for some time after, so conflicts between them were constant. YS was a people pleaser sort and MS took advantage of that. YS acknowledged to me years ago that she did what she did to keep the peace but now that our parents are gone, combined with MS's behavior towards her around the time our last parent died, she's done. I don't blame her. YS and I have always gotten along but as the relationship with parents and MS became more strained, we became closer because she could trust me and I supported her. I think this bothers MS but frankly she brought it on herself. A closer relationship between YS and me does not preclude a relationship with MS and YS, it's been MS's abusive behavior and lack of support toward YS and her DH over a 20 year period that is the cause of the breakdown in their relationship. YS has told MS this but MS denies it all.
Re: parents, I miss them in some ways and in others, I don't. Like Simplemind's parents, I think they played us against each other a bit, not out of malice, but out of their own emotional needs. They were loving parents and raised us well in many ways, but when it come to us leaving the nest, that's when the trouble started. They were very private people, insular really, due to their moral and religious ideas plus the idea of family is all you need and should always stay together. I think they could not fathom us going out into a world where they would not have control over what we did, what choices we made, that we would make mistakes, that we didn't need them anymore. This is a normal feeling for a lot of parents but their particular response to it was not. They could not let go and they harbored this fantasy that we should all live down the street from each other where we can still show up for Sunday dinner and go to the same church. It sounds nice but I had spent over 20 years of my life doing what they wanted now it was time to do what I wanted. Which is the right and healthy thing, but rather than being proud of having raised an independent adult, they were hurt that I was abandoning them. The response was to close ranks around MS and YS to keep them close unfortunately the narrative of "abandoning the family" was perpetuated all too well. One of the things YS has been accused of was "abandoning the family" when she moved out and "abandoning your mother" when she flew in to assist with my mom during her final months only to leave the house when Dad had a serious meltdown / psychotic break that required MS and YS to call the police (I had already left the house when this happened). So YS is unloading a lot while MS keeps wanting to perpetuate this abandonment narrative that I think is underlying her preoccupation of "who is worthy" as a estate beneficiary.
Teacher Terry
4-20-19, 12:17pm
My sister was a accountant as well as extremely honest, fast and efficient so she was perfect for the job. My brother I don’t trust with money. Both of them are much better off financially then we are. My parents encouraged us to explore the world. Never any quilt trips.
saguaro, your story of your parents' belief in family and the need for everyone to stick together rings true me in the sense that my DH and MIL have/had some of that--not to a pathological extent, but maybe it was a Scottish clan thing with them. I've talked about the damage that MIL did to BIL because she was widowed when he was 3, and she was committed to never remarrying (that would be a betrayal of the core family unit)--so she established a sick, symbiotic relationship with her son. The first time he tried to use his wings and live in California she would send him letters saying it would never work; she missed him; the job he was going to win wasn't the right job for him..and so he caved and returned back East and lived with her until she died. [I hope that he finally can realize his dream now--he's trying again, at 57.. this is Day 4]
DH also had a bit of this.. we went on 30 annual family vacations, and 25 of them were with MIL and BIL. We wouldn't consider going on a vacation without our kids or MIL/BIL. One of my deep regrets is that I went along with this to the detriment of opportunities to spend time with my own mother.
I related to that scene at the end of My Big Fat Greek Wedding when you see the Greek dad happily walking down the driveway in the morning to get the paper, and then the camera pans out to the house next door where his new son-in-aw is walking down the driveway to get his paper--the father bought them a house next door. DH's dream would be a family compound where we would all live together. For the most part I love that, and it has served us well. But it's a fine line between being close as a family and being unhealthily enmeshed.
Sounds like you were able to navigate those waters, and your sisters were not as successful. I truly hope it works out for you in the long run.
BTW, I also love that term "Johnny Depp'd". I'm going to keep that image in my mind!
The first time he tried to use his wings and live in California she would send him letters saying it would never work; she missed him; the job he was going to win wasn't the right job for him..and so he caved and returned back East and lived with her until she died. [I hope that he finally can realize his dream now--he's trying again, at 57.. this is Day 4]
@catherine, I remember you talking about your BIL. It's too bad that he caved and came back, it was not good for him or your MIL even she didn't see it that way, here's hoping that even at 57, he will become truly independent.
DH also had a bit of this.. we went on 30 annual family vacations, and 25 of them were with MIL and BIL. We wouldn't consider going on a vacation without our kids or MIL/BIL. One of my deep regrets is that I went along with this to the detriment of opportunities to spend time with my own mother.
YS spent probably 90% of her annual vacations coming back and staying with our parents, during which she pretty much stayed at their house, doing a lot of housework and did very little visiting with other family and friends. A few months before our mother died, some extended family indicated they wanted to see her on her next visit and started to arrange a family gathering for this purpose. My mother went ballistic, basically saying that this was "their time" and they would decide if they wanted such an event. It pretty much said it all, they commandeered nearly all of YS' vacation time.
Sounds like you were able to navigate those waters, and your sisters were not as successful. I truly hope it works out for you in the long run.
I remember beginning in my early teenage years starting to feel rather smothered by my family and wanting to get away when I was of age and completed my education. I really couldn't put my finger on as to why, but now I know it was feelings as a result of the enmeshment. I managed to take a few trips in my later high school / college years, with groups of course, and I remember the feeling of absolute liberation of being away only to feel seriously depressed at the prospect of coming back home. Of the 3 of us, I managed to complete college in 4 years, while working my way to help pay for it (MS and YS were required to do the same but both dropped out). Parents could only pay for part of the tuition and absolutely required that I work my way, they didn't want me taking out loans. Fair enough. However, after 4 years of hard work earning a university degree, to tell me that I wasn't "ready" to go out and live on my own, that they didn't want me leaving, well, I was having none of that.
In other news, MS was at yesterdays family gathering. She brought pictures to give to family members who she thought would want them and other items, chiefly belong to our maternal grandparents for everyone to choose from. We did not talk about YS, but MS did indicate that she is "under pressure from somebody" to get things moving. Seems that she is working on things, though once again, she fell through on her promise to let me know about what's going on or about any help but still complaining about how much work it is. I can't stop her from being the martyr and making it more difficult for herself but there does seem to be some progress.
iris lilies
4-21-19, 10:42am
I will still be contacting the attorney so that you can see what progress is being made. There is not a way you are going to salvage your relationship with your middle sister. If pressure is on her now to be moving, make her move until the deed is done.
Teacher Terry
4-21-19, 11:47am
I can’t imagine parents trying to get adult children to remain dependent. It’s so unhealthy. Glad you escaped Sag.
I will still be contacting the attorney so that you can see what progress is being made. There is not a way you are going to salvage your relationship with your middle sister. If pressure is on her now to be moving, make her move until the deed is done.
Agree that pressure has to be maintained until this is done. Contacting the attorney is still on the table, but for now, I am staying my hand because it was clear to me the pressure was on, though she's mad as hell. But we seem to be getting results, at least for now. I reminded MS again to contact me for assistance, she acknowledged not following through from our last conversation.
It would be good to get into the house to assess for myself how things are going, but while I have a key, I would not go there without MS being present.
Simplemind
4-21-19, 1:08pm
Sigh..…… saguaro, I think our parents are related. I had such a fractious relationship with my mom. She was highly critical of everything I did and I began to repress everything. One of her most hurtful comments was that I was nothing but a parasite. I had a job all through HS and saved every penny. Without telling anybody I got my own apartment and furniture. A couple of days after HS graduation I told her I was moving. At first she thought I was talking about moving and again went on to tell me that I would never make it. I told her I had already had one for a month and had been furnishing it. She came unglued. I honestly think a lot of it was being deprived of being asked for help only to deny it and show it was another example of my incompetence. I stayed away from home for a long time coming back only for holidays with extended family. It was liberating to have people relate to me in a completely different way. Every time I went home all the labels got slapped back on. All three of us kids had parts we played in the family dynamic. We were very distrustful of each other.
Imagine my surprise at being made Trustee since black sheep me had always been told I didn't have a head for anything but useless trivia. My sister and brother had always stayed in the folks pockets with loans and goodies as long as they didn't buck the system. I never borrowed a dime and was never in debt. As trustee I wanted to ask a couple of questions and dear sweet mother said in front of the attorney that it was none of my G*d d*mned business and that she preferred to remain an enigma. Imagine my confusion after they had both passed having both the attorney and the financial advisor say to me that my folks praised me all the time as their kid who had made something of herself and was the best with money and the only one capable of taking over the trust. Who the hell were these people??? I think that is also why my siblings were generous at the end. The parents were gone, we could all breath our own air and they knew I took the heat all those years and did all the work at the end to their benefit. We now all get along without our mom steering our relationships. We have become very close since their passing and get together often. We love being able to laugh and talk openly about our odd upbringing. Believe me, there is a book in all that.
Teacher Terry
4-21-19, 1:18pm
So glad SM that you guys are now close.
I can’t imagine parents trying to get adult children to remain dependent. It’s so unhealthy. Glad you escaped Sag.
Thanks, the longer I live and see the effects of the enmeshment that developed between my parents and sisters as a result of being kept close, the more I am glad I left when I did. It was not easy to withstand the guilt trips and emotional manipulation, and my normally level-headed, sweet mother became quite dominant. It was jarring to see a bullying side of her personality. I remember feeling that something was very off with all this, though I wouldn't put a name to it for many years. It was hard to talk about at the time because too many people saw a loving, close family, how there be anything wrong? I remember one person in whom I confided at the time tell me "your parents are only looking out for you" and could not fathom it when I said "no, there's a problem here". Years later after YS bore the brunt of the same behaviors when she left home, this time from my parents and MS, was I able to talk about my experiences with her and even extended family have now come forward in recent years describing controlling behavior towards us from my parents that bothered them, some of it dating to our childhood.
My sister and brother had always stayed in the folks pockets with loans and goodies as long as they didn't buck the system. I never borrowed a dime and was never in debt. As trustee I wanted to ask a couple of questions and dear sweet mother said in front of the attorney that it was none of my G*d d*mned business and that she preferred to remain an enigma. Imagine my confusion after they had both passed having both the attorney and the financial advisor say to me that my folks praised me all the time as their kid who had made something of herself and was the best with money and the only one capable of taking over the trust. Who the hell were these people???
MS and YS were afraid to buck the system, long after they left home, I couldn't understand why both of them seemed so fearful of "making Mom and Dad mad". I had done it and survived, albeit with the underlying Bad Daughter label, but parents did not cut me off nor did I cut off them. I think there was some limited financial help given to YS while she was at home and parents babysat MS' two kids for years so MS didn't have pay as much for daycare. But getting the limited support doesn't explain the serious fear expressed over simply establishing normal boundaries, and I wonder just what happened in the years after I left home to make them that way.
It's interesting that while MS subjected me to rants about "how I was not involved" and repeats my mother's refrain over "how I didn't call, visit, or do enough", when talking to YS (back when they were talking) she would mention about how I was helping, how hard I worked when we were organizing / cleaning, that I was a big help to her. I was like is this the same person we are talking about here? Even my parents praised me as the accomplished kid (honor student, went to a more prestigious private college, etc.) to anyone who would listen in spite of the private bad daughter label. I was the good kid who never gave them trouble and accomplished all they wanted, yet once I made a bid for independence, I might as well been a juvenile delinquent doing all the wrong things. I was very hurt and frankly, offended, to be suddenly be cast as a "bad kid". I never thought that making normal adult choices would do this and while I maintained a relationship with my folks, I never thought of them in the same way as I did before.
The parents were gone, we could all breath our own air and they knew I took the heat all those years and did all the work at the end to their benefit. We now all get along without our mom steering our relationships. We have become very close since their passing and get together often. We love being able to laugh and talk openly about our odd upbringing. Believe me, there is a book in all that.
@Simplemind, I am glad you have been able to forge a closer relationship with your siblings. I think your description of being able to breathe your own air is very apt. I think that is what is happening with both sisters here now that they don't have our parents to define their relationship. YS is finally able to breathe her own air, and while that has meant causing issues with MS with the letter, I think any attempt to stand up for herself would cause problems between them no matter what she did. MS was always able to push YS around. However I think MS is having some problems trying to breathe her own air, because she was so vested in being the good daughter who did everything Mom and Dad wanted for so long, so she doesn't know what to do without that defining role. I think she is downright scared and so prolonging the estate might be part of that fear.
Bumping for short update. Went to parents' home for first time in nearly a year, to help clean and to assess the state of the house. As usual it was to me to follow up because MS still wants to play "you call me, I won't call you" game in spite of assuring me weeks ago she would be in touch. But I am putting that aside and am putting pressure on her.
Things have been cleaned out considerably plus items are being organized for an estate sale. Cabinets, drawers, closets have been cleaned out plus most of the heavy furniture in the attic has been moved out unto the main floor in prep for estate sale. Basement was a total mess before but some areas have been cleaned out, Dad's old work area still has a lot of stuff still there but all in all it's a LOT better than it was before. Day was spent cleaning, tossing and taking items to Goodwill. I took some things home to go over and toss if I didn't need them. Endured many rants about YS from MS which I expected, but also BIL was there so he chipped in with a few rants of his own.
MS still has not contacted estate sale company or realtor. But MS has given up on doing all the fixes that she wanted to do just because she wanted to do them out of emotional reasons unbeknownst to me. Interesting that after a year, she didn't get around to them. Now, it's whatever fixes that would be deemed necessary after an appraisal, which incidentally is what I told her a year ago were the only fixes I would be OK with. She also said she might sell the house as is, something that she absolutely would not entertain before. I am also OK with that, whatever to get this done. She is also not insisting on touching every single thing anymore, so if we find a box of books and it's clear that is all that is in there, it's "leave it for estate sale" or "take to Goodwill". So some progress. I was in contact with YS saying that work had been done and I was satisfied with what I saw. So we will see.
I got the feeling she's under a lot more pressure from the attorney than she lets on. MS is mad that attorney was "more concerned about YS than about me" since he has taken some control over communications with YS regarding items sent and YS' expectations. Well, of course, he was concerned, I am sure he had a lot of questions in his head when he got YS' letter. MS still doesn't get it but she's getting it enough to bust a move. As long as that continues that's all I care about.
Teacher Terry
5-17-19, 12:50pm
That’s excellent news. Much better than having to take legal action.
Simplemind
5-17-19, 5:09pm
Progress!!!
iris lilies
5-17-19, 9:14pm
ThisSounds like important progress if still slow.
My brother and I were in a similar predicament. I’m the ys in our scenario. She kept it out of probate which was a mistake, probate would have made her accountable! No lawyer.
She did sell the house and divvy up that, but there were things she wanted and she dragged her heels on that. I finally got sothebys to make an appt with her for an appraisal of the piece she wanted and they auctioned the other which she said a 2nd appraiser had said was fake. Hm. 18k worth of fake. Right.
But still the estate wasn’t closed, for 10 years. I got tired of it, found 2 lawyers one in my state, one in hers, and where dad had lived. Suddenly, she paid us off and closed things.
This and other reasons are why we don’t talk. I don’t miss her. I miss the idea of having a sister, but I never had that. Helpful when it could make her feel like lady bountiful or denigriating when she reminded me, again, how superior she was. I know people who have sisters who’re their best friends.
The whole reason I told that was so I could tell you that honestly? I don’t miss her and it’s really okay that we don’t talk.
Thanks everyone, it is progress even as MS gripes her way through it. I will assist just to get it done but I am seriously evaluating how I will proceed in my relationship with MS after this is over, if I can get that far. Not sure if I am willing either. YS is so relieved even as MS has predictably gone scorched earth on her (smear campaign) so even my nephews are now not talking to her in spite of MS saying that "I won't get in the way of my kids having a relationship with her". I can't tell her what to do and I get she's angry but I did tell her one thing: that this is showing me just how far you will go when you are mad enough, no matter how justified you feel, and how do I know that you won't do that to me at one point. She doesn't see that she's choosing her response.
My brother and I were in a similar predicament. I’m the ys in our scenario. She kept it out of probate which was a mistake, probate would have made her accountable! No lawyer.
Hi NewGig and welcome. I know that my situation is not unusual but it's sad and unnecessary all the same. I honestly think that if this estate had gone through probate, this would have made MS accountable as she went through the process. I watched my MIL go through the probate process as executor of her parents' estates (only child so no sibling conflicts) and she was held accountable. She had a lawyer. She did nothing wrong but did face some questions by the judge after reviewing her accounting while she was closing it out.
MS will have to provide an accounting when closing it out. YS and I will be reviewing very carefully on what she provides. That will be another sticking point, but would happen after the house sale is done.
I am glad you are finally getting some relief and progress. So many times I hear horror stories that I think I will just assign any estate I have left when I go to an attorney to clear up and just hand our checks all around. So much simpler.
Bumping for the update I hoped to never do:
Things stalled again. While the house is getting very slowly emptied out, because MS is getting stuck on tiny details, this means the A) he house is still not listed and B) MS made a comment that she might not list until spring. This will be the 3rd winter that house will sit unoccupied. MS has not responded to my requests for information. It has come to my attention in recent weeks that MS has this crazy idea that our husbands (YS and mine) do not deserve to benefit from our parents' estate. I know she has issues with BIL (YS husband) but she never has any conflict with DH and DH has always, always, been nice to her even in spite of some pretty awful behavior from her. I had a hunch about this before but YS confirmed to me on a visit to a few weeks ago that MS actually told her this. So crazy.
So YS and I have hired an attorney to represent our interests. My efforts over the last months to get MS to move, emphasizing on getting what she calls "the monkey on her back" to finally cast it off even for her own well being, has not been enough. So unfortunately it's time to do something different because the same is not. It's obvious MS does not care about our interests in our own parents' estate, a legal document nor her own lawyer is not enough to get her to execute her duty, nor does she listen to us so it looks like attorney involvement is what it is going to take.
Sorry to hear this is needed. Hope that it is all resolved soon. A house deteriorates when no one is living there so that is a large consideration determining that action by you is required.
MS has to follow the direction of the estate requirements of the will, not her personal choices. It has gone on long enough and you have been patient long enough. Perhaps, MS is simply not capable of being the executor. Sad to see this happening.
Teacher Terry
10-29-19, 7:32pm
You had no choice. Your sister sounds either mentally ill or extremely controlling. I wouldn’t have been patient this long.
iris lilies
10-29-19, 8:05pm
I don’t know what’s running through the heads of these people who keep estates going for years and years and years. I uncharitably think they have not managed large scale projects in their lives, or much of anything with a deadline. This may be the largest scale thing they are ever responsible for.
I don’t know what’s running through the heads of these people who keep estates going for years and years and years. I uncharitably think they have not managed large scale projects in their lives, or much of anything with a deadline. This may be the largest scale thing they are ever responsible for.
I think it has more to do with processing change and grief. Going thru this with my parents, I have been shocked at the emotional complexity and the paralyyzing effect of grief.
Thanks for the replies, YS and I have paid our retainer, so it's on, unfortunately.
Regarding grief issues and dealing with change, I strongly suspect this plays into MS' handling of the estate. I don't think she wants to let the house go, not only is it the last material vestige of our parents' lives but I think she knows that with our parents out of the picture, this also changes the relationships between us, but especially between MS and YS. The enmeshment that existed between my parents, MS and YS was sort of the glue that bound them and with parents gone, things have frayed. I stayed more independent and only ventured back into their little enmeshed circle, as difficult as it was, during the period my parents needed assistance. Basically sucked it up during that time but now with both parents gone, that is done and I have stepped back. MS knows this so keeping this estate business going is one way to keep the whole enmeshment dance going. Also MS has absorbed far too many of my parents' attitudes (she has both of their worst traits btw) and is hell bent on on being their proxy from beyond the grave. Another way to avoid change.
iris lilies
10-30-19, 9:06pm
Yes, saguaro and tybee, You guys are likely right. I guess it’s all about emotions and not getting the job done.
Bumping for another update on this. In an unexpected turn of events, MS has delegated the task of listing and selling the house to me as a special trustee. Our attorney had suggested this option in his initial letter to MS' attorney but none of us thought MS would go for it. Turns out she did. Attorney drew up the documentation, I signed and am awaiting MS's signature. I have an email drafted to the realtor and ready to hit "send" plus am getting extra keys to the house made today. I plan to use the realtor that MS contacted 2-3 months ago. She is experienced and her specialty is selling homes in this city neighborhood, where she has always lived, we know her family from childhood. She also lives nearby giving me a set of eyes to keep on the house since I live an hour away.
Interesting part? House is completely ready for sale. MS did clear out the home, had repairs done, had the house professionally cleaned all in the last couple of weeks and then delegated the task of selling to me. My task is to list, do all the necessary processes / documentation and close on the house. MS still has control of the checkbook and will continue to pay all bills on the home. Once I close on the house, my job is done and all reverts to MS.
The word I got from my attorney was that MS was seriously unnerved by our action. She still has to provide answers on accounting. She provided a basic accounting that she maintained herself but none has been vetted by her attorney yet. That's another issue for later, right now the main thing is to get that house listed.
catherine
11-26-19, 12:21pm
Wow! Congrats! Get that thing on the market! Good luck moving forward with the accounting, but at least you have the opportunity for some closure.
iris lilies
11-26-19, 12:23pm
Hey this is super dooper progress!
iris lilies
11-26-19, 12:30pm
There are some rumbles in DH’s family estate liquidation. The “bad”sister is asking for an accounting of monies spent on the estate, and she has her own attorney reviewing documents. This annoys DH (although he is not the executor) but I reminded him that it is perfectly reasonable for his sister to ask for facts about the estate.
She has always been the outlier, although in the world of bad sisters she’s not bad at all.
There is actually some pretty big monies that were funneled to another one of the siblings, I mean a couple hundred thousand dollars, before his father died. But I remind DH that his father was alive and when he made these distributions his mind was mostly clear and it was his money to do with as he chooses. The “bad” sister is starting to chase this down but I don’t think she’ll have any luck in recovering it.
there is always drama in these things.
catherine
11-26-19, 12:37pm
there is always drama in these things.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. On my mother's deathbed, she reached under her butt and pulled out three 20-dollar bills and handed them to me. That was the same amount of money I had given her for Christmas one month before. That was my inheritance. I'm happy for it, and I wish the same for my kids. I'll gladly give while I'm alive, but these estate issues are a nightmare.
Thanks. I wasn't expecting this at all but once I got over the initial shock, I am relieved we can finally get going and not deal with MS getting in the way of herself.
One reason why I wasn't expecting this was that initially my attorney thought we would have to go through the process of getting her removed but he found a clause in the trust that allowed for designation of a special trustee. This can be very specific, naming specific tasks, which is great because one thing I did not want to assume was the financial responsibility for the estate, like paying bills, etc. I wanted no liability in the event of any mismanagement. This way I can handle the house related stuff and MS can handle the financial stuff, answering for what she has done so far. Once the house is sold, the money goes into the estate account which MS manages. Could be another issue in getting her to disburse but that's for later.
There is actually some pretty big monies that were funneled to another one of the siblings, I mean a couple hundred thousand dollars, before his father died. But I remind DH that his father was alive and when he made these distributions his mind was mostly clear and it was his money to do with as he chooses. The “bad” sister is starting to chase this down but I don’t think she’ll have any luck in recovering it.
there is always drama in these things.
On the inlaw side, SIL has had quite a bit of money given to her from MIL / FIL, especially after both came into sizeable inheritances after grandparents died. For a long time DH complained that if his spendthrift parents die broke, she would have gotten her inheritance "ahead of time". I point out that his parents' money is theirs to spend as they see fit, they were and still are of sound enough mind. DH is long over this now but I know that if the situation was in reverse, SIL would be the one chasing the money he got after they passed.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. On my mother's deathbed, she reached under her butt and pulled out three 20-dollar bills and handed them to me. That was the same amount of money I had given her for Christmas one month before. That was my inheritance. I'm happy for it, and I wish the same for my kids. I'll gladly give while I'm alive, but these estate issues are a nightmare.
My maternal grandmother died completely broke, all that was left was personal belongings. It made it all very easy. I had a coworker tell me that he encouraged his mother, after his father died, to live her life and spend her money, after she expressed concerns about leaving some for him and his siblings. His attitude that if she left little or nothing that would be the best thing, no drama, no hassle.
Teacher Terry
11-26-19, 12:51pm
So glad it’s finally getting resolved.
It is so great that she got the work done on the house and it is actually ready to sell.
She may be unnerved as the attorney said, but it would probably help the situation if you could express appreciation to her of all the effort that she did put in, and express positivity about the special trustee situation.
Looking forward to how you will be related in the future, and whether you will see each other or be in each other's lives, some kindness towards her now may really help you in the future.
Just my thoughts, based on how I am trying to approach a similar situation with siblings.
Amongst other things, my sister dragging our dads estate out 10 years is part of but not all the reason we don’t talk and I expect not to for the rest of our lives.
My sis is passive aggressive and my ptsd can’t cope with that, actually that’s the largest piece.
I can deal with a lot of her behaviors but the insistence that my opinion is invalid or less just doesn’t fly, and it pushes my abuse button and triggers the ptsd.
She’s not worth it; any money or stuff isn’t worth that. And, because she sees her value in $/high status stuff, there’s no middle ground. The equation became really simple — a flashback can cost me 2 weeks. Is this person, place or thing worth that? So far the answer has always been no!
Amongst other things, my sister dragging our dads estate out 10 years is part of but not all the reason we don’t talk and I expect not to for the rest of our lives.
My sis is passive aggressive and my ptsd can’t cope with that, actually that’s the largest piece.
I can deal with a lot of her behaviors but the insistence that my opinion is invalid or less just doesn’t fly, and it pushes my abuse button and triggers the ptsd.
She’s not worth it; any money or stuff isn’t worth that. And, because she sees her value in $/high status stuff, there’s no middle ground. The equation became really simple — a flashback can cost me 2 weeks. Is this person, place or thing worth that? So far the answer has always been no!
Absolutely, everyone's experience is different. I was basing my observation on my own family dynamics and how I want to proceed in the future, to protect myself as much as possible. As are you, and as is the OP.
Good luck, OP!
Teacher Terry
11-26-19, 5:16pm
Once both my parents passed I have no contact with my brother and email my sister. If I go to Wisconsin I see her for lunch. No great loss.
Absolutely, everyone's experience is different. I was basing my observation on my own family dynamics and how I want to proceed in the future, to protect myself as much as possible. As are you, and as is the OP.
Good luck, OP!
@Tybee I get what you were saying. Honestly in trying to navigate this, one thing I have kept in mind is while I will not be seeing my sister in the foreseeable future who knows what will happen long term. Right now, I can not be around her for my own well being, nor can YS. MS will be angry for a very long time which will prevent any sort of relationship until she gets to a point where she can resolve that. Even so, I have acknowledged to people the work she has done, in spite of her delaying and stalling. I have made a point of not sharing with the extended family about this situation or YS' contact with MS' attorney earlier this year, nor AFAIK are they aware that MS and YS are estranged. I have done this for a reason because there may come a time when MS decides she wants a relationship with her family. In getting our attorney I had to accept the possibility that my relationship with MS may be completely over because of this but at the same time I won't do anything to make things worse, keeping my actions only to what is absolutely necessary.
By way of background, she has always been difficult, angry, passive aggressive, and let's just say honesty was an "option" for her. My folks didn't know what to do with her and finally I think they just threw up their hands. I left home when I was 24 and she was 22. One advantage of moving out (certainly not the main reason) was that I didn't have to worry about her invading my and YS space and "borrowing" our things, including losing some important pieces of jewelry that I safeguarded for years. She would always deny these doing these things and my folks pretty much didn't do anything about it. I honestly worried less about losing possessions to dicey neighbors in my first apartment building than I was with her around. YS has a more difficult history with her as both remained in the family home for 10 years after I left.
Over the years, I only saw her on a social level (family events etc.) but only 5 years ago, when my mother slid into her final illness, did I have closer dealings with her and saw how she really operates. I overlooked a lot for the sake of helping our parents. What finally did it for me was recently learning that she had a part in withholding important information from me about our mother's condition while scolding me for not doing enough. We were in a middle of a crisis and she still had the energy to play these "communication games' that she continued to employ while handling the estate. YS has had her own issues with her over the years as well. YS recently told me that the feeling she gets from MS for us as sisters is contempt.
Dealing with her has been hard, to the point that I finally set up a counseling appointment to go over all this and guide me for how to navigate in the future.
I had to do that, go to counselling, to deal with family dynamics around parents. It is terribly stressful.
It helped, even though the counselor predicted worse things in the future. Turns out, counselor was spot on. So it helped me to protect myself.
Simplemind
11-27-19, 11:32pm
Saguaro your sister sounds like a narcissist. There is no reasoning with them, they are missing the parts.
Saguaro your sister sounds like a narcissist. There is no reasoning with them, they are missing the parts.
Both YS and I think she's got some very serious issues going on. Narcissist has come to my mind as being one of them.
Still waiting on the special trustee documentation with MS' signature from her attorney which gives me the green light to proceed.
Quick update: Got the green light to list the house. Contacted realtor immediately and met with her the very next day. Signed listing agreement, house will be photographed tomorrow so listing should be up shortly after.
Was at house yesterday to do yard cleanup, checking lighting, replacing light bulb over attic stairway with an LED so much better lighting for buyers wanting to see attic. Next step for me is to secure snow removal services to handle snow since I am over an hour away. I will pick up that tab, sending invoice to MS, if she refuses to pay or delays, attorney will evaluate then. Main thing is to get that house sold, all other stuff can be worked out later.
From what I gather, MS attorney has indicated to our attorney that MS is difficult to deal with. No big surprise. Possible that it was on his advice to give me the authority to sell. In other news, relationship with one extended family member seems to be already impacted. My counseling appointment is this Saturday and it will be just in time for the holidays...sigh.
So sorry that it has turned into such a struggle but you are moving ahead with getting it listed. Hopefully it’s selling quickly and you can enjoy the holidays in some peace of mind.
Glad to hear there is some movement.
Teacher Terry
12-9-19, 1:47pm
Glad things are moving along.
Simplemind
12-9-19, 1:51pm
This too shall pass. Like a kidney stone but it will pass. ((hugs))
Thanks, everyone. While I am glad to finally, finally get this moving, the emotional cost of doing so weighs heavily on me. One one hand, dealings with my sister over the last 5 years has been so difficult, with so much anger and hostility eminating from her that that I feel relieved no longer dealing with her. On the other hand the impact to my relationship with her family (BIL, inlaw family and her two sons in particular) that bothers me. Also what will happen with the extended family, MS has shown she is willing to go scorched earth if she has a mind to.
Unfortunately, you can only act on the things that you can. BIL and sons must be confused and hurting as well with all this disturbance going on for so long. When one can do nothing else, just love them and be yourself.
It was very important to get an attorney for yourself onto the scene which tells you that others are observing how things unfold.
With all the attorneys involved I hope it's not like the Courts of Chancery in Dickens where the orphans got nothing in the end.
It won't be like that. This will proceed now that attorneys are involved. Sadly, the family dynamics are taking a rough toll.
When things were at my worst with my brother, it definitely affected my relationship with my sil and their children. Really, really sad, as you lose so much more than the parent in all of this.
It's devastating. So glad you are going to see a counselor; it will help.
Update: Today I signed a contract for the house. We got an offer after just 4 days on the market and an inspection is scheduled for this weekend. The buyer has his financing already in order so we won't have to wait for that. No contingencies.
Dare I hope there's a light at the end of this tunnel?
Teacher Terry
12-19-19, 1:43pm
Great news!
Simplemind
12-20-19, 3:24pm
OMG... so happy for you!
Perfect Christmas present!
SteveinMN
12-20-19, 9:32pm
That's great news, saguaro! I hope closing goes smoothly...
Checking in with an update both good things and one bad thing:
House sale is proceeding so far so good. Inspection was done just before Christmas, radon testing over the holidays, home appraisal and attorneys just concluded reviewing the sales contract. Nothing was identified in the inspection that scared off the buyer, radon checked out, only thing that came out of the review process was that buyer requested a repair credit (it is an 100 year old house after all), realtor thought it was too high so I countered with a lower amount which was accepted. Appraisal due Jan 20th and buyers loan contingency date is the 24th. Closing is tentatively scheduled for Jan. 31st.
So we are getting close....just hope things continue as smoothly as they have been going. I really, really, REALLY want this over.
In the meantime, I was aware that MS is cleaning out the storage facility, leaving things for me to pick up at the house and send to YS if necessary. Things have been cordial but a bit terse when I have had to contact her for documentation necessary for the house sale. However she's not beyond getting her licks in, apparently.
YS volunteered to scan the slides from our family vacations, family events etc. some time ago. Dad was an avid photographer and took tons of pictures and slides. He stored his slides in trays or boxes, labeling them and was super meticulous in storing them. MS left slides for me to send to YS at the house, but...she dumped them all in a single box. Hundreds of slides from my parents' honeymoon to their last vacation before they died and everything in between all mixed up in that box. YS will still scan them but her job just became a lot harder now she has to sort them after they were already sorted to begin with. MS is just hell bent on making things harder and inflicting pain where she can still get away with it.
Teacher Terry
1-14-20, 11:50am
Well that’s really mean of your sister. My mom took a ton of slides when we were kids. We didn’t keep them.
Could YS simply scan a limited number that catch her eye and create a summary of the family and toss the balance of slides due to the mess?
Well that’s really mean of your sister. My mom took a ton of slides when we were kids. We didn’t keep them.
My parents have lot of slides too. I used the ones from their time living in Belgium and the Netherlands for school projects/presentations which always got A's. I was "made" in Belgium but they moved to Kansas before I was born so I never got to live anywhere exciting. KS to VA to MD. :(
My brother did something really similar--put everything that was sorted and threw it in a box including a framed picture that had been on top of my grandmother;s dresser in the 60's and the glass broke (of course) and I had to pick shattered glass out of the mess of the box--everything stuffed in there and then the box was ripped and damaged in shipping.
It seemed really passive aggressive and mean spirited.
Sounds like your sister and my brother are cut out of the same cloth.
SO glad the house is selling--yay!!
@Tybee it was passive aggressive and mean, sorry to hear your brother did something similar. Aside from the meanness, it also shows disrespect. In our case, it shows total disrespect for Dad as MS knows that his photography was important to him including how he kept things. MS did a similar thing with me regarding our Mom's wedding dress, threatening to just dump it. She is taking things that she knows were important to our parents and "weaponizing" them.
@razz, unfortunately a lot of YS's baby pictures were on slides (which is likely why she got the bulk of them) there's few actual photos of her so she will go through them. There was a large envelope for me also containing slides. YS offered to take those but I agreed to hold onto them, YS has a big enough job. After YS and I go through what we have we will discuss what we really want to keep and what to toss.
Having the house cleared out and knowing I have only 2 more weekends to go down there, check on things and take the very last items out of the house (light, timer, cleaning supplies kept on hand) is a huge relief! Also next appointment with counselor is coming up....going to be interesting how that goes now that she has the "lay of the land" from the first session.
You are so lucky. My parents house is still sitting there, no one would or will cooperate on clearing it out. I have seriously thought of getting Teacher Terry to go down there with me for a week and just doing it. If I weren't afraid of my litigious brother, I would.
@Tybee how long has your parents' house been sitting there? Is your brother in charge of the house / estate?
It has been empty now two years, and he is in charge, but they are still living.
Teacher Terry
1-14-20, 12:54pm
Tybee that’s terrible. I have done this numerous times and I can be a fast decluttering machine:)). From what you have said about your brother I think you are right that he might take legal action. You would think he would want the house sold in case he needs the money to pay for your parent’s care.
Yeah. I wouldn't do it, but I know you would be a decluttering machine!
It has been empty now two years, and he is in charge, but they are still living.
That is terrible. In addition to possibly needing the money from selling the house to pay for care, the house continues to incur costs like ultilities, taxes and insurance reducing what is available for the parents' needs. Makes no sense but then again, it doesn't. IME seems to serve some need in the sibling who's in charge.
Bumping for update: The house is sold, I closed on it late last week. DH and I were there an hour before the buyer's walkthrough to remove the lamps and timers, do a final check and clear snow off the deck. Per realtor and my attorney closing went off without a hitch.
Thanks to my attorney, I was able to arrange for proceeds to go to each of us at closing rather then have proceeds be deposited in the estate account then fight MS for disbursement. Unfortunately, in the course of selling house, I had to rely on MS for information which she mostly provided however she was really cagey about sharing the estate bank account details that I needed for the closing. Turns out she completely screwed things up and it was one of the reasons that my attorney pushed for direct disbursement rather then get involved in her mess by running the proceeds through the account.
And the most interesting thing was that MS insisted that "houses won't sell in the winter" but (and maybe I was lucky) the house was on the market for only 4 days when I got the offer. Total time to sell this place took just under 2 months.
Just relieved this house business is all over.
Teacher Terry
2-3-20, 12:08pm
So glad it’s over!
At least that part of the estate is settled. How is it going with the rest? Would you be content to just walk away now?
So glad to hear the house is taken care of. That must be a relief.
iris lilies
2-3-20, 1:34pm
To update about DH’s dad’s estate, DH and three of his siblings have pretty much decided to keep the farmland and co-own it.
yeah, that’s a good idea. [ insert eye roll here]
That is such great news!! It is so good to put that stuff behind you.
Teacher Terry
2-3-20, 1:40pm
A friend of mine was one of 6 that parents owned a house in a small town right on a lake in northern Wisconsin. They kept it and rented it to teachers at a discounted rate but they had to leave every July for a month. Everyone came yearly for a family reunion. They still do this and everyone is in their 70’s.
Just relieved this house business is all over.
YEA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Congratulations on the sale AND on getting the proceeds DIRECT!!!!!
To update about DH’s dad’s estate, DH and three of his siblings have pretty much decided to keep the farmland and co-own it.
yeah, that’s a good idea. [ insert eye roll here]
Well.......custom farming is a great idea if there are cattle or dairy farms nearby. My Dad and then brother, prefer custom farming. Maybe they could set it up for quarterly payments and each brother gets 1 payment per year?
Sounds like it could be a trainwreck too..............
iris lilies
2-3-20, 2:24pm
Well.......custom farming is a great idea if there are cattle or dairy farms nearby. My Dad and then brother, prefer custom farming. Maybe they could set it up for quarterly payments and each brother gets 1 payment per year?
Sounds like it could be a trainwreck too..............
cash rent. They will rent it out. Problem is negotiating the rent since it is lil’ brother who will farm it. He is accustomed to deeply discounted family rate rent. Which he he didnt pay anyway...
cash rent. They will rent it out. Problem is negotiating the rent since it is lil’ brother who will farm it. He is accustomed to deeply discounted family rate rent. Which he he didnt pay anyway...
All the better reason for the 3 brothers make him buy-out at fair market value! Sheesh....why is it the takers never see that they are takers??????
All the better reason for the 3 brothers make him buy-out at fair market value! Sheesh....why is it the takers never see that they are takers??????
Is it because the givers don't recognize themselves as the givers and take steps to manage the giving?:devil: They both own the responsibility,IMHO.
It is very hard to sell the family farm. There is a farm in southern Michigan that my grandmother described going to visit her grandparents as a little girl--her grandfather built the house and cleared the land and put a stone fence around 40 acres. It is still in the family, which pleases me very much--it is a Michigan centennial farm. My great-great grandfather settled the land in 1840--they arrived in Michigan via the Erie Canal from New York.
So to me, there is something tragic about selling the land.
iris lilies
2-3-20, 3:13pm
Is it because the givers don't recognize themselves as the givers and take steps to manage the giving?:devil: They both own the responsibility,IMHO.
agreed. A short backstory is that little brother stayed in the homeland, worked hard in his own business, looked after their father. Their father had a girlfriend who lived with him and did day to day care of their father.. Little brother got lots of handouts totaling quite a large sum of money, but that is A-OK because it was their dad’s money. He could do with it as he liked, his choice and he gave for...reasons.
But that is not now the case, all siblings are viewed the same in the legal documents and according to the law.
But if the siblings want to carry on a tradition of baby bro gets the goodies, OK whatever. DH says cash rent they charge him will be at market rate. We shall see.
Oddly, there is enough money to buy out one sister who causes trouble and they don’t want to co-own with her. Well no chit, you mean co-owning real estate is a problem? Who knew!!!/sarcasm
iris lilies
2-3-20, 3:16pm
It is very hard to sell the family farm. There is a farm in southern Michigan that my grandmother described going to visit her grandparents as a little girl--her grandfather built the house and cleared the land and put a stone fence around 40 acres. It is still in the family, which pleases me very much--it is a Michigan centennial farm. My great-great grandfather settled the land in 1840--they arrived in Michigan via the Erie Canal from New York.
So to me, there is something tragic about selling the land.
This is not a centennial farm and I have said so much to DH that if it was a Centennial Farms or multi generational farm it would be a different deal. Their father bought it in the 1970s.
My family lost several farms in the Depression. If people could hang onto their farms through the depression, that meant a lot. That’s not what’s happening here.And the Farmhaus is butt ugly. Even little bro who may move there will tear it down and build something new. You know I would be all over this property and keeping it if it had one of the wonderful old farm houses that are around where we live in Missouri.
Iowa farm houses are not very interesting. They almost all date past 1900. The ones around rural MO hereabouts can be civil war era.
I hear you. My parents bought their farm in the 70's and it's hard enough to think of selling that.
iris lilies
2-3-20, 3:43pm
I hear you. My parents bought their farm in the 70's and it's hard enough to think of selling that.DH’s mother said loudly and often that if she survived her husband ( the likely outcome) she would sell their farm pronto, so these feelings are not universally shared.But she died first.
My brother and I are in the process of selling my dad's house, which is also where we mostly grew up. I'm feeling lucky that we are very much on the same page: neither of us is emotionally attached to the house and we basically agree on the price we hope to get. Division of labor is him doing physical stuff like cleaning out the house and me doing stuff like paying bills, anything legal, and selling/promotional stuff, mostly from where I live, several states away, with a week-long in-person trip there to kick things off regarding the home sale. So far we have been very much in agreement about all things estate-related, knock on wood! The house is in tear-down/major renovation condition but in a sought-after location. We are currently near the end of a two-week period of trying to sell it ourselves after which, if that doesn't work, we will probably list it with a realtor. I think we are going to sell it from this two-week effort though. I've contacted a bunch of builders and a few realtors -- we have had lots of interest and expect multiple bids.
Teacher Terry
2-4-20, 12:31pm
Mama, so glad you guys can work together.
Realized this thread just became a year old and bumping up for a final update. But not before I say to mamalatte, that I am glad she and her siblings are working so well on her dad's estate. It makes a huge difference when everyone is not just in agreement but everyone is also in the loop on a regular basis, something that was sadly lacking in our case.
The day before closing the attorney handling the estate side of things called me in a panic. It was regarding the bank account information MS had given me. It seems that MS did not set up a bank account to handle estate funds, something that YS and I assumed she had done. Instead she rolled everything into the joint bank accounts under her and Dad's name. After Mom died, Dad put her on the accounts so she could pay bills (she also had financial POA). Per my attorney, anything that came into the account was legally hers so this is why we had to scramble the day before closing to do the paperwork to disburse funds directly. The other option was to have the title company hold the funds until she could set up a proper estate account but attorney advised in no way should the money hit that checking account.
At least that part of the estate is settled. How is it going with the rest? Would you be content to just walk away now?
After the house closed, YS wanted to push for the final disbursement on the remainder however, given the amounts, our attorney advised that it was best we did that on our own as the money spent in fees would be more than the gains. I agreed with this and was perfectly willing to just walk away from the rest. However, we did get an accounting and let's just say MS took some liberties with some expenditures however once again it was not in amounts worth disputing considering the 3 way split between each of us. YS and I advised MS' attorney that we were not going to challenge and to proceed with any distribution. I received the final distribution check last week. Other than some money left out to pay possible capital gains for tax year 2020, it's all done.
A couple of things in closing:
YS and MS are still not speaking, MS insists YS has to "call her", YS is done. I stay out of it. There are longstanding issues between them outside of the estate issue.
MS and I have had contact regarding information she needs from me so she could cancel insurance, file taxes, etc.
I have patched things up with MS to a certain extent, namely for the sake of my nephews and so that things won't be awkward at extended family events. We had a long conversation a couple of weeks ago which we both said our piece. I just let her talk and didn't make any rebuttals when I disagreed. She blames YS for influencing me to do what we did even though I told her point blank that it was my decision, what my reasons were and I own it. She still doesn't get that some things were her job to do like being in regular communication with us, stating it's my fault she went radio silent on the estate for 8 months. She will not address that by law she had to provide an accounting and we had to force the issue. So short we will have to agree to disagree.
There will be boundaries in place. I am fine with communication via email, text and phone. Any in-person contact will be at family events only. Private meetings are out of the question because history has shown that is where she feels she has a clear field to blow up and say some of the most awful things. She blew up at YS in her own home when visiting a few years ago and I started to dread going to the house because I never knew when the next bomb would go off.
Another boundary is to not rehash what has happened because she holds on to hurts, real and imagined, forever. However, I fully expect her to pull out the laundry list of grievances the next time she gets mad.
Yet another boundary is to not get involved in the relationship between MS and YS. I have firmly told MS that those issues are between her and YS to work out or not. The issues between them are strictly between them, do not involve me and never have.
I appreciate all the support given during this saga which is finally at an end and just in time. I can't imagine trying to sell the house now with COVID-19 going on. Getting an attorney to push this was absolutely the right thing.
Thanks to all who weighed in. :)
Glad to hear it's over. MS sounds like a real piece of work.
Glad to hear it's over. MS sounds like a real piece of work.
Honestly, Tradd, in the last five years between dealing with our parents' final illnesses/death and then their estate was a real eye opener in seeing how she thinks and operates. She always was a difficult person and flouted my parents' rules but still I never expected this. I moved out of the house many years ago so afterwards my interactions with her was in context of social visits, holidays, etc. instead of having to live with her. Now I understand why she and YS have issues as both remained in the family home for years after I left and basically got away from what I learned later was increasing family dysfunction.
Saguaro, glad to hear that the estate is resolved, finally. May I suggest that you need to find a way to help heal your stress with all of this, not just your parents' passing but family dysfunction, finding a way through the monetary issues, trying to figure out what to do etc. You are so right that your lawyer was a really good decision to help you get through this. It will take some time for the mental rehearsing and recycling of the struggle to finally leave you in peace. I wish you well!
Honestly, Tradd, in the last five years between dealing with our parents' final illnesses/death and then their estate was a real eye opener in seeing how she thinks and operates. She always was a difficult person and flouted my parents' rules but still I never expected this. I moved out of the house many years ago so afterwards my interactions with her was in context of social visits, holidays, etc. instead of having to live with her. Now I understand why she and YS have issues as both remained in the family home for years after I left and basically got away from what I learned later was increasing family dysfunction.
May I suggest thinking about cutting off contact if she misbehaves again? I blocked my parents' phone number and email addresses. I don't know how old your nephews are, but if their mother can't behave and act like a civilized person, then shunning her might be necessary. It made my life so much less stressful.
Congratulations on reaching closure on this chapter. Your boundaries are clear for your self-preservation and wish you peace moving forward.
Saguaro, I am impressed by your thinking about the boundaries--how you will conduct the relationship in the future. That is very wise planning. I will have to think about that with respect to my own family relationships going forward, as we navigate the next chapters in our own family end of life saga.
thank you for the update. I am glad this chapter is closed for you. You've made some wise decisions about the relationship and boundaries. Razz is right - figure out a way to work through this and move forward.
I haven't been able to log in for some time due to some Chrome weirdness, but finally got in today and saw the replies.
@razz, @Garndr and @beckyliz, I have gone into therapy as part of processing this experience which has been immensely helpful. @Tradd, regarding your question of cutting off contact if she misbehaves? Yes, that is absolutely on the table if she acts up again. Nephews are 21 and 19, oldest will be graduating college next year, so leaving the nest in the coming years will likely happen. At that point, hopefully it will be possible to maintain a relationship with them directly and not have to interface with their mom as much.
I will be honest, my primary reason for resuming limited contact is mainly for the sake of wider family. My nephews being one but also for extended family members who AFAIK mostly don't know what happened and don't need deal with any tense or awkward moments like at family gatherings for example. Of course now with the Covid situation, gatherings are off the table anyway so oddly enough that makes things easier.
iris lilies
7-20-20, 11:14am
To give an update on DH’s family inheritance Saga, without giving too much detail:
Now they are all going into business together including bad sister. Apparently anyway, since bad sister has not signed off and out of the group. There is already an estrangement within the group, one is not speaking to another.
What a good idea, this partnership! What can possibly go wrong with this scenario??? /sarcasm
To give an update on DH’s family inheritance Saga, without giving too much detail:
Now they are all going into business together including bad sister. Apparently anyway, since bad sister has not signed off and out of the group. There is already an estrangement within the group, one is not speaking to another.
What a good idea, this partnership! What can possibly go wrong with this scenario??? /sarcasm
How will a business arrangement even work if they are aren't all talking? Not to mention, trusting the bad sister as a partner in this?
iris lilies
7-20-20, 11:48am
How will a business arrangement even work if they are aren't all talking? Not to mention, trusting the bad sister as a partner in this?
Bad sissy is not the only one who has shown themselves to be problematic. Another sib has shown themselves to be untrustworthy. . On a scale of 1 to 10 the untrustworthiness is not real high but there’s been demonstrated action in not carrying out a contract involving large amounts of money. I have to be deliberately vague about this.
I hope the partnership agreement has a “majority rules“ idea in the decision making process, otherwise it will be a big cluster fk where no business even gets out of the gate.
I have already warned DH that he may never ever complain about being in business with either of the troublesome siblings. He knows the nature of bad sissy. Knowing him,he will blame every problem on her, but that is just foolishness because he is walking into this with his eyes wide open. No complaints are allowed, ever.
And for the record, the concerns of bad sissy are not Crazy and I agree with her overall.
The overview on this is that this inheritance stuff brings out all of the old childhood hurts and relationships – who is babied and spoiled, who felt left out and treated like a black sheep, who is the leader who everyone acquiesced to.
Teacher Terry
7-20-20, 11:51am
I L, that sounds like a really bad idea all the way around.
iris lilies
7-20-20, 11:53am
I L, that sounds like a really bad idea all the way around.
Isnt it though?
The overview on this is that this inheritance stuff brings out all of the old childhood hurts and relationships – who is babied and spoiled, who felt left out and treated like a black sheep, who is the leader who everyone acquiesced to.
Unfortunately so true. Not just in my case, but I have heard the same from friends.
Unfortunately so true. Not just in my case, but I have heard the same from friends.
It's funny, the three roles described seem to line up really well with the three siblings in my family, at least how they see each other.
I can't wait to relate to my siblings as pleasant acquaintances, with whom I have no business in common. We will see if love returns. Who knows.
I cannot see how anyone could possibly do business with ones family, if they are anything like mine.
It's funny, the three roles described seem to line up really well with the three siblings in my family, at least how they see each other.
The 3 roles line up with mine as well. The same thing with some cousins of mine.
I can't wait to relate to my siblings as pleasant acquaintances, with whom I have no business in common. We will see if love returns. Who knows.
I am seriously reevaluating my relationship with MS, right now I see her becoming a "pleasant acquaintance" at best depending if she can find it within herself to behave in the long run, to be quite honest. However the relationship with YS has become stronger in part because I stepped up to the special trustee role and showed how things can be done with genuine intent and transparency. The relationship between MS and YS remains broken: YS is done and MS will not take steps to mend anything insisting that it is up to YS "to call her". Whatever. I told both that the issues between them are between them, don't get me in the middle, I will not be a flying monkey for either. Things may improve, they may not, but I am preparing more for the latter and be pleasantly surprised if it turns out to be the former.
I cannot see how anyone could possibly do business with ones family, if they are anything like mine.
Same here. No way would I do it especially knowing what I know now. Taking on the special trustee role made me privy to a lot of what MS was really doing because she had to give me certain financial details especially when it came to closing the house sale. Let's just say there's a lot she did that would have gotten her in serious trouble had this issue gone to court. Among other things, not providing the accounting which was not just stated in the will and trust but also required by state law. I have it on good authority that she would not cooperate with her own attorney. I considered the estate handling to be a matter of business, so seeing how MS handled things is good warning of how she would be in any other arrangement.
iris lilies
7-21-20, 11:52am
I named those three sibling roles off the top of my head because they are so strongly personified in DH’s family.
DH is none of them so that kind of makes it easy.
I like all of his siblings, none of them are excessively difficult. But then, I’m not someone who takes on the problems of others, I am very objective about DH, his family interactions, etc. It’s just when it all impacts my economic life that’s when I figure it’s my business.
iris lilies
7-21-20, 12:04pm
The executors of DH’s father’s estate are getting $40,000. Two of his siblings were the executors.
While that is a lot of money, i’m sure that’s allowed within the legal guidelines. I know their intent has been good to move the estate along and they wanted to close it a year after death, but so far it has been 18 months. The barriers to closing it have been virus lockdown and bad sister stalling.
I was actually relieved to hear that they’re allowed to be paid that much for the job executor because I think it’s a nasty job and I want to see people paid for it. That is relieved one of my concerns about my own trust in that I really want executors to be paid for their work and I don’t necessarily want to reward them with money from my estate. Right now as my estate trust is written up the executors are also inheritors but I don’t necessarily want it to be that way when I next revise it.
Back to DH’s situation– Executors have promise pd to put some of that money into the partnership draft/legal set up of the business. So that is a nice gesture on their part, and even if it’s only a little bit of the money it will be something.
I'm sorry, IL, this business sounds like such a bad idea. You don't have any liability from it in that you are married to DH, do you?
I would be screaming right now if my husband was going into business with his 6 siblings. It would be a NIGHTMARE and we'd get stuck paying the bills. (And never see any income from it.)
iris lilies
7-21-20, 12:30pm
I'm sorry, IL, this business sounds like such a bad idea. You don't have any liability from it in that you are married to DH, do you?
I would be screaming right now if my husband was going into business with his 6 siblings. It would be a NIGHTMARE and we'd get stuck paying the bills. (And never see any income from it.)
The liability is extremely low because the business is renting out farmland. They pay insurance. They set rent amount. They collect the rent. The real sticking point will be what if the rent is not paid?
Is this a done deal? As in you have to be supportive of it?
Agh. I would hate to be in business with my family. Just don't want my money anywhere near theirs. There is a property my mom owns that will be inherited by all of her kids, along with a cousin, or maybe more than one cousin. I am not looking forward to this at all.
iris lilies
7-21-20, 1:12pm
Is this a done deal? As in you have to be supportive of it?
Agh. I would hate to be in business with my family. Just don't want my money anywhere near theirs. There is a property my mom owns that will be inherited by all of her kids, along with a cousin, or maybe more than one cousin. I am not looking forward to this at all.
It is not a done deal. I have already exerted all the influence I have, which is to talk up every point I can think of to DH about having his siblings buy him out. It ain’t gonna happen.
But as a result of this, I am taking a more active role in managing our joint assets and I will be requiring that he pay attention to my comfort level for risk. Generally our invested assets break down as he has exclusive control over 50%, I have exclusive control over 25%, and we have shared control over the other 25%. At least, I think that’s how it’s breaking down but I’ve got to check those numbers.
Since it's not yet a done deal, have him check out this thread about liability on rented farmland:
https://talk.newagtalk.com/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=451660&DisplayType=flat
Anyway, good for you in taking a more active role in managing your joint assets. Way to go!!!
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