BP and LDL

[Ultralight]

So I got some blood work done yesterday, along with getting my BP checked.

My BP has steadily gone down to normal ranges since I stopped eating cows, pigs, birds, and goats back on Jan. 1st.

But... my LDL is 102, which is three points too high, apparently.

This might be because I ate cheese pizzas everyday for 16 days during my vacation in May. But I don't know exactly how that works.

[Teacher Terry]

If you read up on cholesterol the only benefits are for men that have had previous heart problems. Statins hurt more people than they benefit. I don’t worry about my cholesterol at all and would never take medication. In some people statins have caused irreversible muscle pain/problems.

[dado potato]

Normal BP is commendable. Well Done!

As to the LDL:
If you are already walking the dog, maybe increase the time and distance.

You might examine your consumption of transfats…
Go fiber! (apples, oat meal, oat bran, peas, beans, sweet potatoes, etc.)

[Ultralight]

If you read up on cholesterol the only benefits are for men that have had previous heart problems. Statins hurt more people than they benefit. I don’t worry about my cholesterol at all and would never take medication. In some people statins have caused irreversible muscle pain/problems.

I have no intention of taking statins. But I still want to get that LDL down a few notches.

Do you have any chronic health problems that could be associated with high LDL?

[Ultralight]

Normal BP is commendable. Well Done!

As to the LDL:
If you are already walking the dog, maybe increase the time and distance.

You might examine your consumption of transfats…
Go fiber! (apples, oat meal, oat bran, peas, beans, sweet potatoes, etc.)

I think a serving of oatmeal a day would take care of the LDL. But it has fallen out of favor among my taste buds.

[SteveinMN]

Increasing numbers of studies are showing that practicing medicine just by LDL number is bad medicine. It's just more complicated than the number. Yours isn't even that far beyond where they say it should be!

Your body needs a certain amount of cholesterol. It's part of how nutrients get to cells. That said, too much or not enough is bad, but there are at least two types of cholesterol (LDL "bad" cholesterol and HDL "good" cholesterol) and triglycerides in the mix as well. Is your HDL cholesterol at a level that satisfies your care providers? What about triglycerides? What about LDL particle size (it's a thing; in the absence of high insulin levels cholesterol forms larger cloud-like particles that don't infiltrate cells as readily as normal cholesterol particles)? Particle size is not part of a standard "lipids panel".

If your doctors start talking medication to you at this point, decline politely and read up. Find all your lipid panel numbers and determine if you are concerned enough by the values to consider altering your diet, your exercise, or to consider taking meds. Do not let the almighty protocol do a number on your health.

[Ultralight]

If your doctors start talking medication to you at this point, decline politely and read up. Find all your lipid panel numbers and determine if you are concerned enough by the values to consider altering your diet, your exercise, or to consider taking meds. Do not let the almighty protocol do a number on your health.

My doctor has not said anything yet about the LDL. I will eat a bowl of oatmeal daily before I take drugs.

I hate drugs.

[Teacher Terry]

My cholesterol range is 200-215. I eat oatmeal 5 times a week. My ratio is good. I don’t worry about lowering it because there are no benefits for me personally.

[Tammy]

I remember when total cholesterol of 240 was the upper limit. And fasting blood sugar was normal until 126. And blood pressure was normal up to 140/85.

I still can’t decide if the data supports this lowering of thresholds or if big pharma wants more customers.

[Ultralight]

I thought high LDL was bad for your ticker.

[Teacher Terry]

Only for men that already have heart problems.

[Ultralight]

Only for men that already have heart problems.

Something about that just doesn't add up to me.

So before a guy has heart problems LDL is all fun and games. Then something -- totally unrelated to LDL -- goes wrong with his ticker. Then LDL starts beating his heart's ass? Come on. Not buying it.

Smoking is only bad for men who already have lung cancer. Right. Got it!

[Teacher Terry]

Read the studies.

[Ultralight]

Read the studies.
They are probably funded by the egg yolk industry.

"Don't worry about cholesterol until you already had your heart attack." LOL

[Alan]

Something about that just doesn't add up to me.

Me neither. I'm aware of a few studies from several years ago which found that higher LDL in men over 60 years of age had no significant impact on their longevity, but as a person with clogged arteries and a stent in his left anterior descending artery (the widowmaker), I'd question anyone promoting that view.

[JaneV2.0]

Apparently, Teacher Terry and I read the same studies. Nothing I have seen suggests to me that statin drugs have more than limited use, targeted to middle aged heart attack victims, while they have side effects ranging from cognitive decline and increased susceptibility to type 2 diabetes, to kidney failure, heart failure, and muscle weakness including rhabdomyolosis. They have no efficacy for women.

https://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2018/01/25/should-everyone-over-65-take-a-statin-to-prevent-a-heart-attack/

[Ultralight]

Apparently, Teacher Terry and I read the same studies. Nothing I have seen suggests to me that statin drugs have more than limited use, targeted to middle aged heart attack victims, while they have side effects ranging from cognitive decline and increased susceptibility to type 2 diabetes, to kidney failure, heart failure, and muscle weakness including rhabdomyolosis. They have no efficacy for women.

https://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2018/01/25/should-everyone-over-65-take-a-statin-to-prevent-a-heart-attack/


Are we talking about high LDL being bad for you or about statins being bad for you?

[Ultralight]

Apparently, Teacher Terry and I read the same studies. Nothing I have seen suggests to me that statin drugs have more than limited use, targeted to middle aged heart attack victims, while they have side effects ranging from cognitive decline and increased susceptibility to type 2 diabetes, to kidney failure, heart failure, and muscle weakness including rhabdomyolosis. They have no efficacy for women.

https://www.peoplespharmacy.com/2018/01/25/should-everyone-over-65-take-a-statin-to-prevent-a-heart-attack/

Jane believes in studies she likes. She doesn't believe in studies she dislikes.

[JaneV2.0]

Are we talking about high LDL being bad for you or about statins being bad for you?

I'm in accord with SteveMN re LDL, but I'm generally a cholesterol skeptic who believes the key factor in heart disease is inflammation.

[Ultralight]

I'm in accord with SteveMN re LDL, but I'm generally a cholesterol skeptic who believes the key factor in heart disease is inflammation.

What do you think causes the inflammation?

[SteveinMN]

Are we talking about high LDL being bad for you or about statins being bad for you?
High LDL can occur for a number of reasons unrelated to impending cardiovascular disease. People on low-carb or ketogenic eating plans typically have a lot more fat moving through their bodies because their bodies are burning fat, not carbohydrates, for the bulk of their energy needs. So, naturally, their LDL cholesterol measurement will be higher. In fact, it is fairly standard advice for people actively losing weight on LC/keto diets to wait until their weight has stabilized before reacting strongly to LDL levels that are considered "high" according to the typical standard of care (LDL of 100 or higher).

I think the point being missed here is that the LDL number by itself is a poor measure of adverse potential cardiac outcomes. Medical science does not know fully why LDL levels increase. Several studies (not paid for by The National Egg Yolk Council ;)) now show that LDL levels are not tied to the amount of saturated fats or high-cholesterol foods people eat. There are studies showing that temporary high levels of blood glucose (even postprandial levels in people otherwise without issues like diabetes, metabolic syndrome, PCOS, etc.) seem to correlate with increased incidence of cardiovascular disease. And then there's the conundrum of why cardiovascular disease and high blood pressure and the like are on the rise despite the virtual eradication of trans fats and the continued presence of 100-calorie packets of carbohydrates -- maybe there's a causality but it sure doesn't look like fats are the bad guys there.

Properly assessing the risk of heart disease, atherosclerosis, etc., requires looking at HDL levels and triglyceride levels at a minimum. In fact, current studies show that the ratio between LDL and triglycerides is a very good indicator of future cardiac problems -- much better than reacting to LDL levels alone. I believe that's why so many of us are advising caution in following medical advice that seems to be applied to blocks of people meeting very broad criteria (over 50 or with high blood pressure or with LDL levels above 100 or whatever). It seems unlikely that one factor is affecting the health of so many people so why key on that as a response?

[Ultralight]

I am skeptical of the keto diet. But as for high LDL. I am only a a few points over the mark. So not terrible.

And if I ate oatmeal more often or choked down more veggies I would probably be okay. Heck, if I just put down the fork a little earlier I'd likely drop a few elbeez and the LDL would be fine.

But this is not science. I am not a nutritionist.

I will be seeing a nutritionist again.

My diet is not extreme in any way -- I still eat fish (oysters a couple times a month, maybe some other fish here and there). I get some dairy, like in Indian food, but only as an ingredient, not anywhere near the main attraction (unless I am on vacation, then I eat pizza, yeah!).

I do struggle with overeating and with binges sometimes. But not eating meat and cutting out most dairy makes the overeating lesser and the binges less frequent.

[rosarugosa]

I think pizza every day for 16 days is a bit extreme and not very healthy. That might have skewed your numbers, and perhaps once you get back to a more balanced diet your numbers will improve.

[Ultralight]

Woke up to and email from old sawbones. He is actually about 30 years old.

Anyway, he said my numbers look good and not to worry about the slightly elevated LDL. He said to stick to my mostly plant-based diet and that it seems to be good for me.

[frugal-one]

Wait until you get over 65. Then they will tell you to be on BP and cholesterol meds.... no matter what your numbers are. I think it is mostly a money making racket!!!!

[Gardnr]

The total cholesterol picture is important.
TOTAL=
HDL=
VLDL=

When you get to see the actual report, it still gives the normal range to 240. And no, docs don't want to tell you that.

Food intake over time affects cholesterol. What you ate in the prior 6-8 weeks before the blood draw. Some say up to 3 months. I always encourage people to wait 90 days for a blood draw after a lifestyle change.

Exercise can impact as well so yes, the additional recommended walking can help.

BP of 120/80 is still on the scale. More importantly the 80 unless your upper # is well over 140. Exercise, fish oils impact BP as well as CoQ10. This is a comprehensive Meta-study. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17287847

I agree with no Statins for sure! The side effects are terrible. And the value? Hmmmmmm....and always remember, Dr Adkins himself: "details from Dr. Atkins's confidential medical report. The report concludes that Dr. Atkins, 72, had a history of heart attack and congestive heart failure and notes that he weighed 258 pounds at death."

[Ultralight]

Wait until you get over 65. Then they will tell you to be on BP and cholesterol meds.... no matter what your numbers are.
While I appreciate your cynicism I am dubious of your claim.

[herbgeek]

I recognize an anecdote is not data but, my spouse just turned 65 and his cholesterol is 147, and the doctor wanted to put him on a statin, just because of age (no family history, healthy weight, vegetarian).

[JaneV2.0]

The total cholesterol picture is important.
TOTAL=
HDL=
VLDL=

When you get to see the actual report, it still gives the normal range to 240. And no, docs don't want to tell you that.

Food intake over time affects cholesterol. What you ate in the prior 6-8 weeks before the blood draw. Some say up to 3 months. I always encourage people to wait 90 days for a blood draw after a lifestyle change.

Exercise can impact as well so yes, the additional recommended walking can help.

BP of 120/80 is still on the scale. More importantly the 80 unless your upper # is well over 140. Exercise, fish oils impact BP as well as CoQ10. This is a comprehensive Meta-study. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17287847

I agree with no Statins for sure! The side effects are terrible. And the value? Hmmmmmm....and always remember, Dr Adkins himself: "details from Dr. Atkins's confidential medical report. The report concludes that Dr. Atkins, 72, had a history of heart attack and congestive heart failure and notes that he weighed 258 pounds at death."

I saw Dr. Atkins on the Larry King show not long before he died; he looked very good for a man his age. At death, it was found he had some damage to his heart due to a viral infection; before death, he had been pumped full of steroids because of his brain injury, causing fluid retention, erroneous vegan propaganda to the contrary. He played singles tennis regularly, and weighed about 200 at 6' or so, IIRC.

[Ultralight]

I recognize an anecdote is not data but, my spouse just turned 65 and his cholesterol is 147, and the doctor wanted to put him on a statin, just because of age (no family history, healthy weight, vegetarian).

I would ask the doctor a lot of critical questions and then politely decline the statin.

[Teacher Terry]

As soon as you hit 65 doctors attitudes change. I just say prescribe whatever you want but I am not taking it.