View Full Version : Expectations and demands and stepping away
Woke up this morning late--8:45. I think that's because I woke up in the middle of the night and couldn't sleep so I did a little reading of my most recent kindle purchase: Joyce Carol Oates' A Widow's Story. (Great book)
So my phone wakes me up and it's my brother--the one who always calls me relentlessly when drinking. He complained that I didn't answer his call last night. I texted him that I'll call him later after I have a cup of coffee
The first email I saw was a note from one of my market researcher colleagues who hired me to do about 5-6 projects this year. She sent me a schedule to approve last night at 9:47 and her email this morning (8:29) was coy--"I was having trouble with my email last night--did you get my email about the schedule?" suggesting that maybe between 10PM on a Sunday night and 8:30AM on a Monday morning if I hadn't gotten back to her something must be wrong.
'
I'm still shepherding DH though his health issues.
The other day he asked some people we met recently to dinner that night at our house without asking me first.
I pick up my son (who doesn't have a car) in Burlington to bring him back to G.I. twice a week.
My son in NJ calls me to remind me to pay this floor guy and that paint guy (he is overseeing work we agreed to do when he moved in).
My DD is putting an offer on a house and is asking for help uploading student loan records that I pay
I have the most active work year I've ever had, so that means I have 5 other clients breathing down my neck for things I'm working on.
I know that "there are no victims, only volunteers" and I've been a happy "volunteer" for this stuff all along, but suddenly I'm feeling an internal need to step away for a while--to either a physical retreat or to a wall of "no's" for a while (I can't really do that with my work, unfortunately).
How do you handle it when you feel the expectations and demands on your life get a little weighty?
rosarugosa
7-29-19, 9:57am
Catherine, that sounds like an awful lot of demands! I suspect I may be better at saying no than you are. My mom could not say no, and I think this is an instance where I learned from her how not to be. If it were me, I would have to step back and re-calibrate. What can be delegated? Where can you say no without serious repercussions? How can you set boundaries and manage expectations that are more reasonable going forward?
Well there is stuff you pretty much have to do, and stuff you want to do. I make a list of all the demands, and then put them into those two categories.
The optional/want to do items have to wait until there is more space/free time.
Husband's health is on the have to do, picking up an adult son who chooses not to have a car is on the want to do list. I'm not sure if this something you offered, or something that is an expectation on son's side. In any case, its a big load to drive from GI to Burlington and back twice a week. He needs to find another way to get there, if he wants to visit you twice a week. He should not be putting this burden on you.
Not sure why you are footing all the bills on the NJ house if your son is planning on taking it over. If the work is being done to suit HIS needs/wants, then perhaps HE should do the coordinating (and the paying IMO).
The daughter asking for student loan records that only you can access (I assume) is reasonable, but I would think that she should already have taken care of this in getting pre-approved before putting an offer on a house. It is NOT reasonable to demand this on a short time window with no warning.
And your colleague is just ridiculous. You can either completely ignore her implied tone and proceed however you would have or you could gently call her out and ask her expectations (and then tell her that the expectations are not reasonable if they are indeed unreasonable).
Just my opinions.
iris lilies
7-29-19, 10:06am
Prioitize, and put off the rest.
You are the financial engine of your household and family. Your clients come first. The health of your DH comes second.
I see other temp solutions to the other issues, but I wonder if you do? Those are down the list of priorities.
Anyway, here’s hoping you can find pockets of relief to this situation. I also hope you can remember this feeling of overwhelm to not overextend yourself in the future.
We in our household are loading up a lot of responsibilities and are running around carrying them out, but it is fun. we enjoy it. I do think about one of us getting sick and at that point some of it will grind to a halt.
rosarugosa
7-29-19, 10:47am
I think Herbgeek did a great job running down the list and prioritizing.
Teacher Terry
7-29-19, 10:53am
I totally agree with Herb. I would have a talk with DH that unless he intends to cook and clean no inviting people without asking you. I find as I get older I get tired easier. Does your son that’s buying the house realize that once you retire you will be living on SS only? I would be saving money and not giving it to my kids. You are too generous with time and money to your own determent.
How do you handle it when you feel the expectations and demands on your life get a little weighty?
I say NO. It's a word. A fabulous word. A word I use often. I highly recommend it.
As for the contract? I would kindly suggest that you do not work between Friday night 6PM and Monday morning 8AM. Gentle but firm.
If you don't set boundaries, this will go off the rails in your life.
Agree with everyone.
Husband can cook if he invites.
Email woman can just wait until normal work hours.
Everybody has made great suggestions, so I only have one to add. I'm a community college teacher, and regarding email, I tell my students I check school email between 9 and 5 Monday through Friday, so if they email me outside of those hours, they shouldn't expect an answer until those hours. Of course sometimes I check at other times, but I reserve the right not to, which takes a lot of pressure off. Maybe you could set a similar boundary with work colleagues? I've even seen people put a message that clarifies this under their email signature - e.g. "Work-related emails will be read and responded to Mondays through Fridays - thanks for your understanding" - or something like that.
Herbgeek is right.
Dear Catherine, you need to set some boundaries. As long as everything is loosey=goosey and continues to be, you will feel overwhelmed. That will not resolve itself. When I had a near death experience, I realized that the world went on just fine without me. My role then became ensuring that each loved one knew and learned to thrive without me. This happened a long time ago and I still have to remind myself to step back and let go. Try that approach to give yourself some inspiration.
There are other means of supporting your DH, find them as it is not all up to you. You have family and agencies at hand to assist. Your NJ home is NOT now your responsibility. Reduced rent which, no doubt, you are charging means the tenant, your son and family, picks up the simple maintenance. If this was not outlined in writing, it needs to be.
Hugs to a good heart who is feeling overwhelmed.
catherine
7-29-19, 12:40pm
Thanks, everyone. I'm in a somewhat better frame of mind now that I had my two cups of coffee. I called my brother and he apologized for harassing me. My colleague with the "email problem" was also apologetic--and since she was my original market research mentor and I LOVE her I'll forgive her this once, but I love the suggestion to put an "out of office" reply stating certain email boundaries.
DH is the cook in the family, and he did a great job with smoked chicken. I made the corn and he picked up deli salads to save me that work, and everyone had a great time, but I confronted him about asking me and he said, with honesty, "It didn't even occur to me to ask you." He is having the time of his life up here. He's very gregarious and he was raised on Scottish parties and he LOVES being able to bring people together at his (our) house. Ironically, my MIL used to tell my how mad she used to get at DH's father for the same reason--he never wanted to go anywhere, but would always invite people to their house. Because he was alcoholic, it might have had something to do with not having to go anywhere after a night of partying, who knows.
I have a certain number in mind that I want to give my kids before I retire (kind of a "die broke" philosophy) and I'm working towards that. So that's why I agreed on the repairs to the house (plus, any landlord would fix what we had to fix). I'm about half way there. I have not been hurt or disadvantaged by any sum of money I've given my kids so far. And my son knows (and he confirmed this just last weekend) that he knows that ANY time we have to pull the plug and sell the house, he's fine with it--and he has to "sh*t or get off the pot" by 2022.
I am going to work on "NO" for all those other irritating expectations. I agree that I need to just collect what I can from my clients. I'm lucky to be able to work here and make a decent income at my age.
The essence of simple living for me, is eliminating unnecessary work/entanglements/obligations, not self-denial or "anorexic living." as a friend calls it. I would agree with everything others have said--publish your email hours, delegate, and what's with the (free?) Uber service for your son?
SteveinMN
7-29-19, 12:53pm
I, too, think Herbgeek is on the right track.
I'm in a somewhat similar position. What has worked for me has been to figure out whose problem it really is. That governs my response.
As an example, there will be a much-needed bathroom remodel done soon at my rental property; one that will improve the safety and quality of life for both occupants of the house (relatives). The ideal would be for both of them (and the dog) to find other accommodations for the couple of weeks needed for the work. But the dog severely restricts their options. It's not my dog (in fact, I lobbied against this particular dog as it's a handful for my relative to manage) so I'm not going to worry about the choices they could make that they have eliminated because of the dog. They'll have to find a place to be or they'll live among the noise and the dust for a couple of weeks and keep the dog penned up while the tradespeople move in and out all day. They made the choice; they bear the consequence(s).
catherine, your son's choice to go carless has a consequence: he either can find an alternate way to visit or he can go without visits if you cannot provide the transportation. His choice, his consequence. Your daughter needing help with financial records? Surely she should have access to records about loans she incurred; is there someone else at school or the loan company or such who she could ask first for help before dumping it in your lap?
As for work, I'd either add a .sig file to my email stating your usual work hours and that you're happy to respond as soon as possible during those hours to emails you receive, or set an auto-responder for your usual non-work hours that indicates you received the email and will respond as soon as possible during your regular work hours. If you happen to look at email at other times, great; otherwise, you have set hours and you're going to stick to them. Nip their expectation in the bud by setting yours as soon as the email is sent.
Teacher Terry
7-29-19, 1:44pm
What if something happened and tomorrow you were done working forever? Imagine collecting a reduced SS and needing to live on that for live. Is there travel or other experiences you want to have while both you and your husband can? Just some questions that I think you guys need to discuss. You paid for your kids college and that’s a great gift.
I ran across this somewhere on the internet recently and love it so much I keep sharing it -- for those of us who struggle with what healthy boundaries look like and how to set/maintain them, it is such a useful reminder:
2876
Teacher Terry
7-30-19, 12:38pm
I, it’s all blurry and can’t be read.
I looked lhamo's post up and found it here.
https://lilomm.com/what-do-boundaries-feel-like/
What do boundaries feel like?
It is not my job to fix others.
It is okay if others get angry.
It is okay to say no.
It is not my job to take responsibility for others.
I don’t have to anticipate the needs of others.
It is my job to make me happy.
Nobody has to agree with me.
I have a right to my own feelings.
I am enough.
Very wise in fact.
Teacher Terry
7-30-19, 1:52pm
Thanks Razz!
Yes, thanks, lhamo and razz! I know I have to work on boundaries.
Terry, you raise good points, of course. I'm just going to plug away and try to not compromise on my financial goals. If my world collapses, I'll have to adjust things, but I don't think I'll be that bad off. My SS is pretty good, actually. I've run those numbers and if I live frugally and pay off the GI house with proceeds of my NJ house (either from my son or a stranger buying it), I can definitely make ends meet, not livingly lavishly, but living simply and well.
If I keep plugging away until I meet my financial goals, I should have enough in the bank to give me another few hundred dollars a month.
I'm not into cruises. My DH doesn't even want to leave the island for weekends away, never mind for a long, expensive trip. I've done a lot of traveling for business domestically and abroad, so while travel would be nice, it's not a burning desire. I'd rather contribute to family vacations here in the US with the grandkids.
I reject the notion that you need a lot of money to be happy or a huge portfolio to be safe. I'm not into jewelry, clothes, big houses, new cars or expensive hobbies. I'm not even that much into food. I know I could eat on $400 a month easy. DH can't, but that's what HIS SS check is for :)
I'll be fine.
Like a snail, I carry my humble zendō with me.
It is not as small as it looks
For the boundless sky joins it
When I open a window.
If one has no idea of limitation,
He should enjoy real freedom.
A nameless monk may not have the New Year callers to visit him,
But the morning sun hangs above the slums.
It will be honorable enough to receive the golden light from the east.
flowerseverywhere
7-30-19, 2:52pm
Once I realized people treated me exactly how I trained them I have had few problems. My kids have always been independent but sometimes I did not set clear enough boundaries for others. Be good to yourself so you can be there for others during a true emergency.
Teacher Terry
7-30-19, 3:15pm
Catherine, we are not living a lavish retirement either:)). At this point we don’t want to use our savings so living on 47 gross/year. Our food budget is 400 and it’s easily doable. Our biggest expense is HC between 9-12k/year. In 5 years when DH is 65 maybe it will go down. We go to $5 movies and happy hour food and drinks which are really cheap. I am the Queen of good deals. Our pets have been another big expense because we had 4 old dogs. Now we have 2 young ones. Money is the main reason we are down to 2.
iris lilies
7-30-19, 4:33pm
I think the best financial gift one can give adult children is parental financial independence. If there is money left in an estate after we die, good for our kids! But if we give the money away, and then health problems dictate need, it is burdensome for kids to contribute before they really have to. And that causes problems between the siblings because some have more money than others to give toward parental support.
There has been more than one story on the Mr. Money Mustache website about parents who throw around money, only to be in need later due to health crises. It has nothing to do with blowing money on cruises and jewelry, it has to do with realistic assessment of two seniors entering the last stage of life where health issues are $$$.
Out of curiosity: catherine, would your DH qualify for a VA nursing home if it came to that?I know he is a veteran, but I also know there are limitations in the VA health system for who qualifies and for what services. And, the VA is notoriously poor (depends on the facility.)
Both DH and I were lucky because our parents had enough money to pay for all necessary healthcare in nursing homes AND ALSO leave a stash to their kids. My mother was in a nursing home for several years. That depleted her stash, but she died before it was all gone. DH’s father had enough money to pay a nursing home and still leave a big estate. Few have that luxury, but that is ok, just knowing we didnt have to chip in for end of life health care costs was a great thing.
I dont think it is realistic to assume out of two seniors, neither will need expensive health care services at some point.
My kids are financially independent. They all work at good jobs, and they never ask me for anything, even my son who doesn't have a car.
In terms of health care needs, my mother wound up in a nursing home and I was not responsible for anything. It's certainly a possibility that we'll be impoverished by health care issues, but it's not a certitude. And it's certainly not a given that my kids will have to pick up slack. DH can possibly qualify for VA healthcare but you are right--it depends on our household assets at that time.
What happened a hundred years ago?? Did people have to amass a million dollars to pay for end-of-life expenses? How much do you need to save? How many people in America today can save enough to pay for our ridiculous healthcare system? What happens in other countries today? I'm not anti-savings--but I am anti-assuming that everyone HAS to have a million dollars to get by in old age. My cavalier attitude towards my financial situation, and my desire to "die broke" is based on a rejection of a reality that is bogus. If I get dementia, please, just warehouse me in any Medicaid-eligible place and let me die. I am not going to live in fear that I'm f*cked if I don't have 1M dollars. I want to give my money away now, to help my children now, and that is my right.
As lhamo's post suggested, not one of us is responsible for another's choice . You are absolutely correct that you have the right to make your own decisions and we do have the obligation to respect that right.
Wishing you well as always!
The notion that one cannot retire unless one has a million dollars in assets is right up there with the DeBeers pricing guide for diamond rings: a really marketable idea but far too general to be actually useful. Yes, I know how they derived the number. But people adapt.
At my corporate job, lots of over-50s got caught up in "job elimination" layoffs. The company sweetened the offer with a bridge to Rule of 92, offered severance of $1,000 for each year of service, and assisted in post-employment medical coverage for a few years. Many people who left were not ready to retire in the traditional sense yet you knew they were too old to get hired anywhere else. But when you'd meet them for lunch or other retirements years after they left, they were doing okay in retirement even without a million in the bank.
DW's mom just moved to assisted living. She has a meager SS income and the survivor's benefit to the pension her husband left her. It's not a pile of money -- certainly not a million dollars -- but between that income and the proceeds of selling her place she'll be able to afford living there likely way longer than she'll live (she's 87).
Planning is smart. But postponing a comfortable life until some marketing-ordained goal has been reached? Not a good move IMHO.
MIL is using up her stash paying around $8000 a month for pretty basic assisted living accommodations. Kind of looks like a cheap hotel that serves food service meals which are awful IMO. I assume costs will go way up when she goes to the next stage of care. No one expected her to live so long with so many health problems but she always says "sorry, kids...it's my money and I'm sticking around." And there is still her house to sell currently being rented to a relative if that money is needed.
Teacher Terry
7-30-19, 11:32pm
There is actually a syndrome for people that have to give all their money away even to strangers if they don’t have family. My secretary had this.
There is actually a syndrome for people that have to give all their money away even to strangers if they don’t have family. My secretary had this.
Hmmm, so generosity is a DSM code. Not surprised. I'm sure there are lots of people who think St. Francis, Peace Pilgrim, and even Andrew Carnegie, who said "The man who dies rich dies disgraced" were nuts. As Krishnamurti said, “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.” If we lived in culture in which people--not vast sums in 401k plans--were each other's safety nets we could probably eliminate some of the other DMS codes like depression and overeating. Our rugged individualism and rejection of community has not paid big dividends, IMHO.
Hmmm, so generosity is a DSM code. . No, generosity is not a DSM. I think many of us are surprised because you've struggled a bit on expenses, you're working longer than originally intended...all discussions from the past few years. So yes, we're surprised you're giving away instead of saving.
Herein is the descriptions for the disorder:
Just about everyone has a complicated relationship with money. Studies show that money is the no. 1 reason for divorce (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/divorce) in the early years of marriage (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/marriage) and a common area of conflict for couples. Even before the recession, 3 out of 4 Americans identified money as the no. 1 source of stress (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/stress) in their lives. Financial strain has been found to reduce relationship satisfaction, worsen depression (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/depression), and lead to emotional problems, health difficulties, and poor work performance. With record high debt and record low savings rates in the years leading up to the economic crisis, the average American seemed to suffer from a money disorder.
Money disorders (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/25/health/25iht-25money.16472259.html) are persistent patterns of self-destructive and self-limiting financial behaviors. They result from distorted beliefs about money we develop from our financial flashpoint experiences. Financial flashpoints are painful, distressing, and/or dramatic life events associated with money that are so emotionally powerful, they leave an imprint that lasts into adulthood. Financial flashpoints become the foundation of our financial struggles.
Whether it's a childhood of poverty or want, a message about money subconsciously internalized from a parent, a nest egg lost to an economic downturn later in life, or someone rushing in at the last moment to save the economic day, everyone has experienced a financial flashpoint in their lives. Recognizing them is the first step in stripping them of their power, and overcoming our money disorders. Then we can learn to identify our money beliefs, spot them when they are creeping into our minds, and revise them into healthier, more productive ones.
In Mind Over Money (http://www.amazon.com/Mind-over-Money-Overcoming-Disorders/dp/038553101X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1264841937&sr=8-1), we describe 3 categories of money disorders:
1. Money Avoidance Disorders (also includes Underspending and Excessive Risk Aversion):
Financial Denial: When, rather than face financial reality, we try to minimize money problems by refusing to think about them all together (e.g. avoiding looking at a bank statement or paying a credit card bill).
Financial Rejection: The experience of guilt (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/guilt) whenever money, of any amount, is accrued. People with low self-esteem (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/self-esteem) are particularly prone to this disorder, and it leads to a whole host of financial and psychological troubles.
2. Money-Worshipping Disorders (also includes Pathological Gambling, Workaholism, and Overspending):
Hoarding (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/conditions/hoarding-disorder): When stockpiling objects or money provides a sense of safety, security, and relief of anxiety (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/anxiety).
Compulsive Buying: Compulsive buying is overspending on steroids. Compulsive shoppers are consumed by their money worries. They often learned, early in life, that the ritual of shopping provides a temporary escape from worry and anxiety. When they think about and anticipate the pleasure they will feel when they shop, dopamine (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/dopamine), a "feel good" chemical, floods their brains-only to wear off quickly, leaving them craving another fix.
3. Relational Money Disorders (also includes Financial Dependence and Financial Incest):
Financial Infidelity (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/infidelity): Telling "little green lies" about one's spending or finances to one's partner, like making purchases outside an agreed-upon budget or lying (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/deception) about the cost of a big-ticket item. Extreme examples might include taking out a second mortgage behind your partner's back or opening a secret bank account.
Financial Enabling: Giving money to others whether you can afford it or not; giving when it is not in the other's long-term best interest; having trouble or finding it impossible to say no to requests for money; and/or even sacrificing one's own financial wellbeing for the sake of others. A common example is when parents (https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/parenting) support adult children who should be able to support themselves. Financial Enabling becomes increasingly common among family members in a down economy, when there is sense of guilt about less fortunate relatives.
The basics of financial health aren't complicated, and we are all capable of mastering them, no matter who we are, or our level of wealth. When we identify our financial flashpoint experiences, challenge our distorted money beliefs, and practice healthy financial behaviors (e.g. maintain reasonable and low debt, have an active savings plan, as well as following a spending plan), we don't just become materially richer-we become emotionally wealthier as well.
iris lilies
7-31-19, 9:28am
Oh we all have our demons with money! Thats for sure.But we arent pathological in those peculiarities.
Hmmm, so generosity is a DSM code. Not surprised. I'm sure there are lots of people who think St. Francis, Peace Pilgrim, and even Andrew Carnegie, who said "The man who dies rich dies disgraced" were nuts. As Krishnamurti said, “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.” If we lived in culture in which people--not vast sums in 401k plans--were each other's safety nets we could probably eliminate some of the other DMS codes like depression and overeating. Our rugged individualism and rejection of community has not paid big dividends, IMHO.
I generally agree with this. I also think the DSM is largely a bunch of self-reverential twaddle, but that's how i regard psychology in general.
I suppose it's human nature to find everyone else wanting and then sort them into categories--we all do it--but codifying the results and making far-reaching decisions based on these largely subjective judgments troubles me. Remember, it was only a few years ago that it was pathological to be gay, according to the DSM. Now, apparently, it's generosity.
So yes, we're surprised you're giving away instead of saving.
Financial flashpoints are painful, distressing, and/or dramatic life events associated with money that are so emotionally powerful, they leave an imprint that lasts into adulthood. Financial flashpoints become the foundation of our financial struggles.[/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR]
Financial Enabling: Giving money to others whether you can afford it or not; giving when it is not in the other's long-term best interest; having trouble or finding it impossible to say no to requests for money; and/or even sacrificing one's own financial wellbeing for the sake of others.
Here are some of my financial flashpoints:
My father expressing ire when he saw what I was wearing to church--an ill-fitting hand-me-down from my cousin--because my mother had "a closetful of new clothes"
Being petrified, after my parents' divorce, that my brother would tell my mother how I had given 3 Saltine crackers to my best friend, because we weren't allowed to have snacks at all--never mind give them away--during that period of our lives before my mother remarried.
Watching my stepfather descend into drugs and alcohol immediately after inheriting 80k (in 1970 money), which ruined his life and my mother's.
Watching my mother lose everyone she owned: health, husband, home and all personal possessions in one event. Her husband walked because she didn't put anything in her will for him.
Navigating my own family poverty. Being chronically in the crapper--not being able to give kids lunch money, having the phone and electricity shut off, having to go to family for help, losing my home to foreclosure at age 33.
Being surprised and delighted that I was able to achieve material success and earn a good living, and backtrack on the prior poverty of my young family's life.
Watching money burn as the recession destroyed my savings.
Yes, these were financial flashpoints, and there were more. Yes, I have enabled where I didn't have to, or shouldn't have. Mea culpa.
On the positive side of my "disorder" I have learned that I don't have to be afraid. My life has gone pretty much as I've hoped for. I am not retiring much later than I hoped. I always planned to work until 70. I may work longer, but that can be at a much reduced timeline, and I like my job. It's not as if I have to punch a clock in a factory until I'm 80.
I feel very blessed to have been able to buy two houses, send my kids to college, help out when I choose to, and be surrounded by people I love. My life is very full.
I also still believe, disordered thinking or not, that money is not a big deal. And I think that a system that uses money as the only measure of well-being is incredibly dysfunctional.
That's the appeal of the simple life for me. I don't have to worry about stuff and I don't. My heroes have always been people who don't subscribe to the mainstream culture--the Nearings, Thoreau, Dorothy Day.
I appreciate the love I feel from my friends here and I appreciate your gentle questions and concerns. I truly believe I've come out the other side of my financial flashpoints, and I am satisfied with my own learnings about money--and that is, it's a crude substitute for true security.
iris lilies
7-31-19, 10:09am
I also still believe, disordered thinking or not, that money is not a big deal. And I think that a system that uses money as the only measure of well-being is incredibly dysfunctional.
That's the appeal of the simple life for me. I don't have to worry about stuff and I don't. My heroes have always been people who don't subscribe to the mainstream culture--the Nearings, Thoreau, Dorothy Day....
I think this is an admirable and mentally healthy point of view. I wouldn’t be surprised if, when stacked up against you, an outside shrink would label me a little more “disordered “in my thinking about money. I am a little bit of a Simon LeGree Silas Marner*.I like the hoarding!!! On the other hand I don’t care much about the things money buys because I don’t buy high-end things that must be cared for carefully. With the exception of a couple antiques that I feel an obligation to preserve, my stuff is just stuff. It is easily expendable. But the $$$ in the bank—that’s where my power sits! What me, disordered? Nah, not a bit. Haha.
yesterday I bought a red sports car with cash. For some reason I felt, starting out on this buying journey, that I had to keep it to around $10,000. That was entirely arbitrary. Who said the price had to be $10,000 ish? No one.
Then the Trump economy gave me a gift of $20,000 in one of my retirement accounts. So I thought, why not spend this much? And thenI saw a car I did not even know existed—a Fiat built in a Japanese factory. Euro styling, Japanese engineering. And by any measure it is still a low to mid level car, not an expensive one, so any money guilt I have is not reasonable.
But now I have this shiny THING that needs to be cared for. We shall see if it is worth it.
* oops, wrong literary figure. Edited to correct.
If I were going to buy a sports car, it would likely be red--I approve!
I've always spent money pretty freely--even when I didn't have much. I don't think I have had any "flashpoints," per se.
Teacher Terry
7-31-19, 12:08pm
Gard, explained what I was trying to say. We all have a complicated relationship with money. Growing up my family was generous but not to their own determent. We did the same and also made a few costly financial mistakes. We helped our kids when they were younger and needed it like ours did for us. 4 years ago my oldest and his wife moved in for 18 months even though they were in their early 40”s so my son could finish his college degree. They bought their own food. We have 5 kids between us and always paid if we went out to eat. That stopped when my job ended and everyone understood. My mom died practically broke but it didn’t matter because she was almost 90, had paid for her funeral and the town she lived in has nice Medicaid facilities if needed. We encouraged her to travel and enjoy her money which she did. She told us to take everyone that came to her funeral a specific place for lunch and sell her car to pay for it. It was very important to her to pay her own way.
It didn’t work out so well for my secretary. She got primary progressive MS at 58, had planned to always work yet had to retire by 62, lived in a inaccessible apartment and getting her needed services fell to me and another good friend because family was dead. She got caught between not being quite poor enough but not having enough either. It took 2 of us 2 years to get her into a accessible apartment she could afford and countless hours helping her in the meantime. All of that could have been avoided.
We see the money in our house as insurance because we could sell and buy a older, smaller condo and have that money for other things we may need as we age. We also have left our pensions 100% to the other if one of us die. You can’t do that with SS. You may get a slightly bigger check but still a significant cut in income. Some friends of ours are still working in their 70’s. They work from home. They inherited 300k 7 years ago and it’s all gone except for the 60k they put in the new house they built despite having a decent home they lived in. They now have CC debt again.
catherine
7-31-19, 12:24pm
TT:
1) I, personally, am not extravagant like your friends. I downsized. I don't need much.
2) I'm like my MIL, who always used to say, when people would mention chronic disease, "I'll no' hae it." (I won't get it--actually more accurately interpreted as "I refuse to get it."). JK of course--Of course I can suffer a fate like my mother did at age 50, but I want to know, what is the number that gives you the best life if you are sick? What number makes you feel safe? Incidentally, my MIL never had any chronic disease--worked until she was 75, by choice because she loved her job, humping from the train from Westchester County through two subway lines to her job as Vice President of the Retail Workers Union every day. She hated retirement. She died at 85 of an acute illness while on vacation with us in VT. She left about $160k, and lived on $3k a month, but I don't see that she had a bad life at all. And she did plenty of financial enabling.
3) If we are lucky enough to get a Democrat in office maybe we'll finally get a healthcare system that's like the systems of every other civilized country on the planet. One that doesn't require you to work yourself to the bones for protection against some future possible catastrophe. Again, what did we do 100 years ago? Why is several hundred thousand dollars now considered prudent or even necessary? I don't buy it. If we had a life-affirming culture in this country, we wouldn't be so worried about long protracted debilitating and devastating illnesses.
If we don't make it to the promised land of decent healthcare, and I wind up chronically ill and too poor for decent living quarters, I will stand in solidarity with the hundreds of millions in the United States that will be in that same position.
I'll be fine.
Teacher Terry
7-31-19, 1:03pm
What happened 100 years ago is that when people were old and broke they moved in with their kids and it wasn’t all roses. My mom said when they took in her grandpa it was a real financial hardship in addition to the house being small and some inter generational conflict. Because my grandma was orphaned and boarded out to farm families like a slave at the age of 12 she never turned anybody away. I don’t want to ever be a burden to my kids or live with them. The money in our house and our small savings makes me feel better. I have no illusions that it couldn’t all be wiped out by a major illness. We don’t have expensive taste or habits either. I agree that this country needs to work out HC for everyone. The cost of ours is a fourth of our gross income. Catherine, I wasn’t trying to insult you but was merely worried.
Catherine, I wasn’t trying to insult you but was merely worried.
I know. I appreciate it. But Hakuna Matata has pretty much been my attitude throughout life and is amplified now that I have no family responsibilities and I wake up every day and smile in gratitude to my Maker, so if I'm not worrying, don't feel you have to worry for me. I'll be fine. ;)
iris lilies
7-31-19, 3:31pm
We know several people in their 80’s still working for money. It shocks me! I just cannot grok that.
But one couple who we know pretty well does enjoy their part time jobs, professional level stuff. One has no responsibilities outside of the on-site/ paid hourly work. The other is a fill-in minister who is paid for the Sunday sermon, so he has to write it as well as deliver it, but there are no additional church duties. They can turn down work assignments if they like.
They use this money for extensive travel and they DO take fancy vacations (Viking cruises in Europe)
Teacher Terry
7-31-19, 6:19pm
If my teaching job hadn’t ended I would have kept doing it until I got sick of it. I can see doing part time work if you really enjoyed it. My friends have to work at 73.
I'm reading "A Widow's Story" by Joyce Carol Oates and she talks about how her husband died, unexpectedly, so he had work that was sitting there--as an editor, that meant galley proofs to go over and approve, etc. He was 77.
If you love you're work, you'll keep doing it as long as you can. If you don't, hopefully you can retire early. It's as simple as that.
If you love you're work, you'll keep doing it as long as you can. If you don't, hopefully you can retire early. It's as simple as that.
I disagree with this. I love being a Registered Nurse. I love surgery. I love caring for patients and seeing that I could calm a fear, hold a hand, assure a patient that yes, this is scary stuff and I am here with you the whole time. I love building teams with a common goal. I love the fantastic surgeons I've had the privilege of working with over the decades.
You may have no idea how grueling healthcare can be.
After 38+ years of serving my patients, surgeons and staff, it is time to put myself first. Hence my retirement this week.
I disagree with this. I love being a Registered Nurse. I love surgery. I love caring for patients and seeing that I could calm a fear, hold a hand, assure a patient that yes, this is scary stuff and I am here with you the whole time. I love building teams with a common goal. I love the fantastic surgeons I've had the privilege of working with over the decades.
You may have no idea how grueling healthcare can be.
After 38+ years of serving my patients, surgeons and staff, it is time to put myself first. Hence my retirement this week.
Gardnr, as someone who has made her living on the periphery of healthcare, I completely understand how grueling it is, and I am so happy for you that you are retiring this week!!!
I'm only saying that there is no law that people have to retire at 65, and if they don't, they must be miserable, poor, sad sacks. Some people keep working and others don't by choice.
But truly--congratulations on your retirement!
Teacher Terry
7-31-19, 10:17pm
Nursing is hard physical work. My college teaching and vocational expert work is not which is why I continue to do both. That’s a big difference.
Yes, I've definitely had jobs evade me over the years due to physical issues. That is actually how I got to working remotely, teaching online, since at the time, it was all I could do; I couldn't walk or drive.
I loved some of the things I used to do more than teaching online, but I'm happy to have work.
You just change and adapt, I guess.
In 1919 average life expectancy in the US was 53.5 for males and 56 for females.
https://u.demog.berkeley.edu/~andrew/1918/figure2.html
No antibiotics or vaccines. Probably higher rates of death from accidents as well. And very high infant/child mortality. The flu epidemics took whole families out.
We have also developed a very unrealistic/unhealthy attitude toward death and dying in this country. My mom's heart specialist was pushing her pretty hard to have a second heart surgery at 86. The one she had at 70 gave her 17 more years with us, and I am grateful she had that choice. But she was still really robust at that age, and wanted the extra time. At 86-87 she was worn out and ready to go, and we supported her choices and helped her get into hospice when the time came. Not all families do, and that is one reason why healthcare spending is massive in the last few weeks of life. Everybody dies at some point, and it would be better for us as individuals and society if there was more focus on quality of life issues.
Stepping off my soapbox now.....
Teacher Terry
8-3-19, 10:13pm
My grandparents were born in the 1800’s and lived until their 80’s. My mom had 3 bouts of cancer between 78-84. She should not have treated the last one but the doctors talked her into it. I hope I can be brave enough to realize when it’s my time.
My family is probably fairly typical of Americans. When my dad was a kid my grandfather was the sole breadwinner for seven people. Himself, his wife who was in a state hospital for tuberculosis, his three kids and his inlaws, one of whom was incapacitated by polio. He supported everyone with a job at a foundry making bricks during the great depression. But their life was pretty basic. No indoor plumbing, no luxuries of any sort, clothes only purchased when the old ones were literally falling apart.
Fast forward to when my dad got old. He moved himself to an assisted living facility about 4 years before he died. He had ample assets/pension to pay the $4k/month rent. The last six months of his life were spent in hospitals gradually getting sicker until he finally transitioned to hospice care and $12,000 for a month in a skilled nursing facility before he finally passed away. I'm thankful that he had enough assets that my sister and I could move him out of the shared room to a private room when he didn't get along with his roommate. Even at that late stage of his life he was worried about how much it cost. It was obvious that he wasn't going to be around long so it was a no brainer to spend his money giving him a little bit better life at the very end.
Dad's brother and sister retired with much less assets than dad. Uncle J died broke, as was his plan. Aunt E is broke and still alive. Both relied/rely upon their kids. Not so much financially, but with managing the details of day to day life. Both my uncle and aunt were/are dependent on medicare and seem to have been/are ok.
My impression is that we as a country still seem to care for our elderly. Hopefully that will continue to be the case, and perhaps we'll start caring about younger people too.
Catherine: I just have one thing to add about gifting money to children. You are relatively young, so this probably won't be an issue, but it's important to at least be aware of medicaid eligibility look-back periods and gifting. Your kids also deserve to be aware that there are potential strings attached to gifts they accept from you and DH, even though those strings would be attached by the government and not by you.
Catherine: I just have one thing to add about gifting money to children. You are relatively young, so this probably won't be an issue, but it's important to at least be aware of medicaid eligibility look-back periods and gifting. Your kids also deserve to be aware that there are potential strings attached to gifts they accept from you and DH, even though those strings would be attached by the government and not by you.
Hmm..
The annual exclusion applies to gifts to each donee. In other words, if you give each of your children $11,000 in 2002-2005, $12,000 in 2006-2008, $13,000 in 2009-2012 and $14,000 on or after January 1, 2013, the annual exclusion applies to each gift. The annual exclusion for 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017 is $14,000. For 2018 and 2019, the annual exclusion is $15,000.
Believe me--my gifts to them fall far under these limits, and will never exceed them. Even the "gifts" of fixing up the house for my son are not gifts--I would do that as any landlord would to protect value of the investment, and in fact plan on treating those repairs as a rental expense. If I sell my house to my son, I plan on getting 2-3 independent appraisals and then charging them 92% of that (that's seemingly the average delta between the listing price and the asking price. Well, I may throw in 1-2k extra if I have it at the time).
rosarugosa
8-4-19, 10:19am
I believe those exclusions might be for tax purposes and not for medicaid eligibility.
I believe those exclusions might be for tax purposes and not for medicaid eligibility.
Here's what I found on this question:
https://www.elderlawanswers.com/how-gifts-can-affect-medicaid-eligibility-10006
But you are talking about the lookback period 5 years back from applying for medicaid, and one would have to exhaust one's assets to be applying for medicaid, which would actually argue for making the gifts now while one still has assets, I think. So one would have to have spent all one's assets and probably sold the non main residence and then gone through those assets, right?
I believe those exclusions might be for tax purposes and not for medicaid eligibility.
Why would I need Medicaid? Really, I'm asking. I have Medicare plus a supplemental plan. If Medicare has lifetime caps, and I wind up exceeding that, then I'll worry about Medicaid. Or I'll do what animals do and slink off the the woods and die under a bush. Or at least do what Scott Nearing did and just stop eating. This healthcare stuff can be so aggravating and I refuse to let our "civilized" way off approaching death take me down a fear-based, scarcity mindset.
rosarugosa
8-4-19, 10:49am
It would only be relevant if you needed Medicaid funding for nursing home care within 5 years of making the gifts, so probably not very likely if you make the gifts while you are relatively young.
I'm not saying this info would or should change your plans in any way. I just think it's better to be aware than potentially blindsided. You had said earlier that if you developed dementia, you would want to just be warehoused in a Medicaid-eligible facility. To Tybee's point, gifting when you are younger rather than older is more likely to be the safer bet, but it's still a bet.
It would only be relevant if you needed Medicaid funding for nursing home care within 5 years of making the gifts, so probably not very likely if you make the gifts while you are relatively young.
I'm not saying this info would or should change your plans in any way. I just think it's better to be aware than potentially blindsided. You had said earlier that if you developed dementia, you would want to just be warehoused in a Medicaid-eligible facility. To Tybee's point, gifting when you are younger rather than older is more likely to be the safer bet, but it's still a bet.
I'm definitely doing any gifting while I have work income coming in.
Teacher Terry
8-4-19, 1:02pm
My friend was on Medicaid after using her money. I can tell you that they want a accounting of every penny that is spent. I had to keep receipts for anything I bought her. She was in a nursing home by 63. My dad would have been in one at 59 if he didn’t have my mom to care for him. Someone we know is in critical condition in the hospital from a massive stroke at 55. Life is unpredictable.
It is unpredictable. My parents have lived much longer than I would have thought, and in retrospect, could have given their kids money over the years and still not have been in any danger of running out of money. I think if my mom had her wits about her and could go back in time, she would have done that with her property, so that it would have gone to whom she wanted it go to.
Seeing it has made me very glad I gave my kids the small house downpayment that I did when I did. Now that I no longer have my full time job and money is very tight, I will not be giving anything any more like that, but it has helped them to build better lives, and is much more valuable to the family than it would be if they were getting the same amount in their 60's.
iris lilies
8-4-19, 5:00pm
I believe those exclusions might be for tax purposes and not for medicaid eligibility.
yes. Often People think one is the same as the other But they are not.
A scenario where Medicaid is in your life? The health of your husband goes kaput he has a stroke he needs nursing care around the clock. Medicare does not pay for nursing home care.
Or, you have a debilitating illness that requires round-the-clock nursing care— Even optimistically one that you could theoretically recover from. But after two years at $100,000 per year in a nursing home do you have any money left? If you don’t, Medicaid that paid for your nursing home is going to come after that money that you gave to your kids. That is what “look back” is.
Teacher Terry
8-4-19, 6:37pm
My parents needed their money even though neither went to a nursing home. They got to do some traveling before my dad got sick and my mom traveled until about 3 years before she died. We don’t have a ton of money and are keeping what we have:)). We have helped the kids in small ways and they have all lived with us as adults for awhile for various reasons. We have 5 kids between us.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.