View Full Version : Trump's Tax Returns......
gimmethesimplelife
8-26-19, 6:14pm
What gives? Why do you think he's so reluctant to show them publicly? Rob
Teacher Terry
8-26-19, 6:20pm
I don’t think he is as rich as he says he is.
I strongly suspect there are "untruths" in them. Fear of all those people who know him, seeing his details probably scares him beyond his tolerance.
If he had nothing to hide, he would have given them upon request.
He probably borrowed money from Russia.
What gives? Why do you think he's so reluctant to show them publicly? Rob
Because there's no requirement for him to do so?
gimmethesimplelife
8-26-19, 8:38pm
Because there's no requirement for him to do so?There is now in California should The Unstable One of Orange wish to appear on the ballot in California in 2020. Rob
There is now in California should The Unstable One of Orange wish to appear on the ballot in California in 2020. RobYou know the Constitution is very clear on the requirements for someone to serve as President and Income Tax disclosure is not one of them. It seems odd that an individual state would try adding requirements on their own.
If this requirement survives a court hearing, I wouldn't be surprised to see California go the next step and require all Presidential contenders to be Democrats.
You know the Constitution is very clear on the requirements for someone to serve as President and Income Tax disclosure is not one of them. It seems odd that an individual state would try adding requirements on their own.
If this requirement survives a court hearing, I wouldn't be surprised to see California go the next step and require all Presidential contenders to be Democrats.
I think the CA law only applies to the primaries. Which aren't the election.
I don't even understand primaries for the parties - private political parties selecting their candidate...
Chicken lady
8-26-19, 9:01pm
I think states can set rules for getting on the ballot. But don’t worry. The constitution doesn’t require him to be on any ballots to win the electoral vote.
iris lilies
8-26-19, 9:30pm
His tax returns are the least of my concerns with this Prez.
gimmethesimplelife
8-26-19, 9:33pm
His tax returns are the least of my concerns with this Prez.It's going to snow in Phoenix tomorrow.....at least a foot. Just kidding. My point is that I somewhat agree with you here, IL. There are more pressing issues with this Prez for sure. Rob
iris lilies
8-26-19, 10:24pm
Some of that snow would be nice here to cool things off. Just for a day or two. Although
I will say we had several lovely days last week.
ToomuchStuff
8-27-19, 12:25pm
You know the Constitution is very clear on the requirements for someone to serve as President and Income Tax disclosure is not one of them. It seems odd that an individual state would try adding requirements on their own.
If this requirement survives a court hearing, I wouldn't be surprised to see California go the next step and require all Presidential contenders to be Democrats.
I would be interested in seeing how a state could require federal information, that is supposed to be protected. I can't even enter into the office a relative works at, to get a glass of water, use the facilities, wash my hands (took a jack to change a flat), etc.
I would expect they could legally require releasing California state taxes, if applicable.
But it doesn't even pass the constitutionality test, for that point to even become a thing.
The three most likely reasons he doesnt want them released are 1) they’ll show he’s not at all rich, 2) he’s laundering money for russians, or 3) he’s been significantly dishonest and there are people out there who can prove it. It’s anyone’s guess which of the 3 it is.
This tax thing is just yet another manifestation from this presidency where we are learning that much of our democracy is based on the honor system. Once the responsible adults boot the republicans they are going to have to pass a lot of laws to rectify that so that we don't have to go through this kind of BS again.
This tax thing is just yet another manifestation from this presidency where we are learning that much of our democracy is based on the honor system. Once the responsible adults boot the republicans they are going to have to pass a lot of laws to rectify that so that we don't have to go through this kind of BS again.
So, once the "responsible adults" remove honor and republicans from governance, the passing of lots of laws will be designed to do what exactly?
"Honor and Republicans?" Those are two words that have no business being juxtaposed. If there are any honorable Republicans left, they're keeping a very low profile.
We demand a lot of personal information from our political types. Over the years I have heard people wanting tax returns, birth certificates, medical histories, military records, college transcripts, even DNA sequences. We feel we have a right to know. But do we have a right to information we ourselves wouldn’t want to produce on demand? In an era where people attack other people by combing through the digital garbage of every past utterance?
I, for one, wouldn’t want to be held responsible for everything I thought or said decades ago. And if some troll demanded my SAT scores or immunization records or bank balance, I wouldn’t feel compelled to cough it up.
gimmethesimplelife
8-27-19, 2:08pm
"Honor and Republicans?" Those are two words that have no business being juxtaposed. If there are any honorable Republicans left, they're keeping a very low profile.Truer words rarely spoken. Rob
frugal-one
8-27-19, 4:05pm
It SHOULD be mandatory! It needs to be determined for conflicts of interests. Other members of the government have to disclose stocks, etc. I think the President should be held to a higher standard.
We demand a lot of personal information from our political types. Over the years I have heard people wanting tax returns, birth certificates, medical histories, military records, college transcripts, even DNA sequences. We feel we have a right to know. But do we have a right to information we ourselves wouldn’t want to produce on demand? In an era where people attack other people by combing through the digital garbage of every past utterance?
I, for one, wouldn’t want to be held responsible for everything I thought or said decades ago. And if some troll demanded my SAT scores or immunization records or bank balance, I wouldn’t feel compelled to cough it up.
Isn't it called "vetting?" Isn't it an investigation into whether someone is legally suitable for a position? Heck, I find it humiliating to have to go pee in a cup for a newsroom position, but I get it. I get why.My credit score gets checked if I want to buy a car. I get that. And I'm not running for presidency and I don't think you are either. So why hasn't he had to withstand commensurate vetting?
So, once the "responsible adults" remove honor and republicans from governance, the passing of lots of laws will be designed to do what exactly?
Remove honor and republicans? Hahahaha. There’s nothing honorable about the current crop of republicans. The new laws democrats will need to pass will reinstate honor. If they also remove republicans, well good riddance to bad rubbish. It’s kind of sad that we need to do so. But trump has made it necessary.
It SHOULD be mandatory! It needs to be determined for conflicts of interests. Other members of the government have to disclose stocks, etc. I think the President should be held to a higher standard.
Of course it should. And Alan did a great job of ignoring the three potential reasons the ugly fat turd has kept his tax returns secret because he has no answer to the likely reasons for them to be kept secret. Undoubtedly he’ll say ‘but you don't know that any of those is the case’ in classic republican style. After all, we don’t know there’s an issue, so why investigate. And to suggest an investigation is just a conspiracy theory. And to point out the catch 22 just makes one an asshole. Or so goes republican ‘logic’.
Of course it should. And Alan did a great job of ignoring the three potential reasons the ugly fat turd has kept his tax returns secret because he has no answer to the likely reasons for them to be kept secret. Undoubtedly he’ll say ‘but you don't know that any of those is the case’ in classic republican style. After all, we don’t know there’s an issue, so why investigate. And to suggest an investigation is just a conspiracy theory. And to point out the catch 22 just makes one an asshole. Or so goes republican ‘logic’.No, Republican logic says it's not required so there's no reason to do so. I point out that sort of thing for two reasons, one to point out the obvious and two to give several of you the opportunity to vent your hate in a safe space, where that Alan guy living in your head doesn't exist.
You're welcome. ;)
gimmethesimplelife
8-27-19, 5:16pm
Isn't it called "vetting?" Isn't it an investigation into whether someone is legally suitable for a position? Heck, I find it humiliating to have to go pee in a cup for a newsroom position, but I get it. I get why.My credit score gets checked if I want to buy a car. I get that. And I'm not running for presidency and I don't think you are either. So why hasn't he had to withstand commensurate vetting?I love your last sentence, KayLR, and I could not agree with your point more. Why hasn't he? Rob
Isn't it called "vetting?" Isn't it an investigation into whether someone is legally suitable for a position? Heck, I find it humiliating to have to go pee in a cup for a newsroom position, but I get it. I get why.My credit score gets checked if I want to buy a car. I get that. And I'm not running for presidency and I don't think you are either. So why hasn't he had to withstand commensurate vetting?
I love your last sentence, KayLR, and I could not agree with your point more. Why hasn't he? Rob
I think we learned a decade ago that vetting qualifications, personal history, etc., was racist. Nobody wants to be called racist again, do they?
Yes, and who was behind all that vetting? I do remember the haste by which Sarah Palin was vetted and how we paid for that.
Again, we are all vetted in our work and commerce lives---and we're only paeons. What are we asking for if we discontinue investigating the backgrounds of those who are running our country because we're simply afraid of being bullied? Shouldn't we care about what they've been up to and who exactly they are? The whole birth record thing was a joke and I don't think Obama lost too much sleep over it. How about Trump, though? What's he worried about?
I just read this morning about his Doral Country Club, where members are dropping out, not being replaced, club feeling the effects. This revealed after he offered to host the next G7 there---(nothing wrong with that *eye roll* )
Yes, and who was behind all that vetting?
Does it matter? Everyone attempting it paid for it in one way or another, and all official records prior to election to the Illinois Senate are still sealed from the public.
I wonder if it's because he is standing up for individual or presidential rights and isn't required by law, why he doesn't just say so instead of the line that he is being audited.
It leaves one to suspect he is hiding something. Maybe he really isn't as rich as he claims or maybe he uses the tax laws to his advantage and pays fewer taxes than his greens keepers. Maybe there something that borders being illegal and he doesn't want any tax sleuths to uncover something. Maybe it's nothing and he's just being Trump.
I wonder if it's because he is standing up for individual or presidential rights and isn't required by law, why he doesn't just say so instead of the line that he is being audited.
It leaves one to suspect he is hiding something. Maybe he really isn't as rich as he claims or maybe he uses the tax laws to his advantage and pays fewer taxes than his greens keepers. Maybe there something that borders being illegal and he doesn't want any tax sleuths to uncover something. Maybe it's nothing and he's just being Trump.
I would expect the IRS to catch anything underhanded, at least that's been my experience. I received a notice from the IRS a couple of months ago telling me I'd made a mistake on my 2016 return and owed them an additional $1600 & change. They suggested I pay that right away or face consequences.
One month later my wife and I both received notifications from the same IRS, advising us that another mistake was found on our 2017 joint return resulting in our over payment of a small amount. Surprisingly they didn't give us any indication of when we would receive our individual $5 and change refund.
Back on subject, I think he's just being Trump.
He said he would release his taxes, then reversed himself. It's a recurring thing with him.
https://money.cnn.com/2017/04/17/news/donald-trump-tax-returns/index.html
He's apparently undervalued and overvalued his properties repeatedly for tax advantages--at least that is what the few publicly-available records show.
No, Republican logic says it's not required so there's no reason to do so. I point out that sort of thing for two reasons, one to point out the obvious and two to give several of you the opportunity to vent your hate in a safe space, where that Alan guy living in your head doesn't exist.
You're welcome. ;)
I suppose you’re right. The founders would not have cared if a tax cheat or someone laundering money for people from a foreign adversary became president so these laws that the dems ought to pass are pointless. Of course they would have expected the emoluments clause and the inpeachment part of te constitution to be sufficient to deal with this. But that’s probably because they had no idea how the legal industry would develop into the monster it’s become where the letter of the law is more important than the intent. Hence the reason we will have to codify everything that was accepted on the honor system prior to the current honor-free presidency.
Has a presidential campaign ever been derailed by a candidate’s 1040?
If a candidate didn’t list laundering cash for Slavic despots on his Schedule C, would that change the mind of perfervid conspiracy theorists?
Don’t people simply want to mine the information therein to confirm suspicions?
Have we taken transparency to the level of political porn?
If T considers it his right to privacy as president with no existing laws forcing him to do so, he should just say so. His weak reasoning that he is under audit leads one to think he is hiding something.
If T considers it his right to privacy as president with no existing laws forcing him to do so, he should just say so. His weak reasoning that he is under audit leads one to think he is hiding something.
I don’t doubt that, but suspicion someone is hiding some unspecified thing doesn’t override the right to privacy.
iris lilies
8-28-19, 10:08am
Has a presidential campaign ever been derailed by a candidate’s 1040?
If a candidate didn’t list laundering cash for Slavic despots on his Schedule C, would that change the mind of perfervid conspiracy theorists?
Don’t people simply want to mine the information therein to confirm suspicions?
Have we taken transparency to the level of political porn?
“Perfervid” is our LDAHL word of the day. There have been several of those lately!
If T considers it his right to privacy as president with no existing laws forcing him to do so, he should just say so. His weak reasoning that he is under audit leads one to think he is hiding something.
And given the importance of the voting public being confident that they aren’t electing a russian agent to be the most powerful person in the world this is exactly why we need to have a law requiring disclosure. In the past we relied on political norms to prevent this possibility. But now that we have the unfortunate experience of having a president who doesn't believe in norms it’s become apparent that we need to codify our norms into law.
And given the importance of the voting public being confident that they aren’t electing a russian agent to be the most powerful person in the world this is exactly why we need to have a law requiring disclosure. In the past we relied on political norms to prevent this possibility. But now that we have the unfortunate experience of having a president who doesn't believe in norms it’s become apparent that we need to codify our norms into law.
When I got my security clearance, they asked me if I was a foreign agent. I said “nyet”, but they insisted on a background check anyway. It’s hard to imagine a spy disclosing his activities on his tax return, but maybe we missed that part of the Steele dossier.
I don’t doubt that, but suspicion someone is hiding some unspecified thing doesn’t override the right to privacy.
Nor does fairly obvious deception inspire confidence in a leader's veracity and rectitude.
Nor does fairly obvious deception inspire confidence in a leader's veracity and rectitude.
I agree. But do you really need this particular leader’s tax return to make that determination?
When I got my security clearance, they asked me if I was a foreign agent. I said “nyet”, but they insisted on a background check anyway. It’s hard to imagine a spy disclosing his activities on his tax return, but maybe we missed that part of the Steele dossier.
I don’t think he’s smart enough to be a spy. I do, however, think putin is smart enough to take advantage of him. The easiest way to do that would probably be to wildly overpay for real estate assets. Tax returns likely would show that.
I don’t think he’s smart enough to be a spy. I do, however, think putin is smart enough to take advantage of him. The easiest way to do that would probably be to wildly overpay for real estate assets. Tax returns likely would show that.
That leaves too much of a paper trail.
Easier still just to have him stay in a Russian hotel, provide him incredible hospitality, and threaten to release the video :-)
I've often wondered if Melania is a honeypot a'la Maria Butina.
That leaves too much of a paper trail.
Easier still just to have him stay in a Russian hotel, provide him incredible hospitality, and threaten to release the video :-)
Then you’d run the risk of him being so pleased with his performance that he’d insist on releasing it.
Or you could hire a has-been spook to make some stuff up.
I've often wondered if Melania is a honeypot a'la Maria Butina.
What did she ever do to you?
Or you could hire a has-been spook to make some stuff up.
What did he ever do to you?
Or you could hire a has-been spook to make some stuff up.
With the state of computer graphics these days, you could just hire some computer scientists!
What did he ever do to you?
He lied to me. He got my hopes up and disappointed me. He fabricated an excuse for a whole bunch of domestic spying and wasted some of my tax dollars that would have been better spent on bombs and rockets.
What did she ever do to you?
She wore that repulsive "I don't really care, do u?" jacket on an official visit. Isn't that enough? >:(
If she were a honeypot, it would be better for her image than if she married The Donald for the usual reasons.
frugal-one
8-28-19, 4:25pm
When I got my security clearance, they asked me if I was a foreign agent. I said “nyet”, but they insisted on a background check anyway. It’s hard to imagine a spy disclosing his activities on his tax return, but maybe we missed that part of the Steele dossier.
But his tax return may show that he has conflicts of interests in his business dealings or "presidential duties".
frugal-one
8-28-19, 4:28pm
I don’t doubt that, but suspicion someone is hiding some unspecified thing doesn’t override the right to privacy.
The president should have little right to privacy. He/she needs to be vetted more than the average agent or government worker. The prez is dealing with the most classified of information!
He lied to me. He got my hopes up and disappointed me. He fabricated an excuse for a whole bunch of domestic spying and wasted some of my tax dollars that would have been better spent on bombs and rockets.
We have unlimited money for bombs and rockets. Don’t worry. But if he had caused us to not spend money on education and healthcare i might also be upset. But since our decision to not spend on those things is based on the fact that we had to give tax cuts to the super wealthy and corporations i’m nit particularly concerned about any costs associated with the Steele dosier.
But his tax return may show that he has conflicts of interests in his business dealings or "presidential duties".
Given the nature of the job, I suspect any source of income a President reported would be construed as a conflict of interest by somebody.
She wore that repulsive "I don't really care, do u?" jacket on an official visit. Isn't that enough? >:(
If she were a honeypot, it would be better for her image than if she married The Donald for the usual reasons.
And I thought slut-shaming was a bad thing.
Given the nature of the job, I suspect any source of income a President reported would be construed as a conflict of interest by somebody.
I suppose the integrity of jimmy carter harks back to a long gone age.
I suppose the integrity of jimmy carter harks back to a long gone age.
I still remember the malaise speech, when he lectured America about our “crisis of confidence”, followed by decades of virtue signaling and preaching after the voters booted him out. But if you’re going to fail, it’s best to fail with integrity.
I still remember the malaise speech, when he lectured America about our “crisis of confidence”, followed by decades of virtue signaling and preaching after the voters booted him out. But if you’re going to fail, it’s best to fail with integrity.I was in the Air Force during the Nixon/Ford/Carter years. Nixon gets lots of bad press but Carter was by far the worse President.
I still remember the malaise speech, when he lectured America about our “crisis of confidence”, followed by decades of virtue signaling and preaching after the voters booted him out. But if you’re going to fail, it’s best to fail with integrity.
Clearly, Carter has integrity to spare--a virtue, you might say.
I guess "virtue signaling" is only despicable when progressives do it; conservatives have been beating the "holier than thou" drum for decades--mostly unsuccessfully, as their hypocrisy keeps getting exposed.
An increase in virtuous people--like Jimmy Carter, who walks his talk--would be a wonderful phenomenon to behold, IMO.
An increase in virtuous people--like Jimmy Carter, who walks his talk--would be a wonderful phenomenon to behold, IMO.
Sure would. But I’d prefer them to be competent and perhaps a tad less self-righteous. Reagan was a nice change.
I still remember the malaise speech, when he lectured America about our “crisis of confidence”, followed by decades of virtue signaling and preaching after the voters booted him out. But if you’re going to fail, it’s best to fail with integrity.
Dang. Jimmy carter is a virtue signaler? Just wow. I hate to break it to you but i doubt your ability to judge character if that’s the opinion you’ve developed about him.
But since you’re part of the party of trumpian integrity i suppose i’m not really surprised.
Teacher Terry
8-28-19, 6:59pm
Jimmy Carter is one of the few rich people that walk their talk. He was building houses weeks after surgery. I can’t believe anyone would talk bad about him. Melania wearing that jacket was disgusting since she was going to visit immigrant children. She is as soulless as trump.
Oh please. After being tossed out of office by the voters, he dedicated his life to the proposition that those who can't do preach. He violated the tradition of close-mouthed ex-presidents to lecture us about the practical and moral failings of various world leaders and writing self-justifying books. I can't believe people were taken in by his hagiography.
ApatheticNoMore
8-29-19, 9:57am
Dang. Jimmy carter is a virtue signaler? Just wow. I hate to break it to you but i doubt your ability to judge character if that’s the opinion you’ve developed about him.
tip: if someone starts talking about virtue signaling ignore the rest of what they are saying, people who use meaningless terms aren't worth engaging. Now there are terms with meaning: hypocrisy, showing off (and with clear terms we so how minor these things are in the scheme of things). And there are actions that are ineffective. And if that's what they meant, well I don't know is this stuff ever sincere, but fine they have poor communication skills.
virtue signalling
noun [ U ] (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/help/codes.html)
uk (us virtue signaling) UK
an attempt (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/attempt) to show other people (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/people) that you are a good person (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/person), for example (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/example) by expressing (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/express) opinions (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/opinion) that will be acceptable (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/acceptable) to them, especially (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/especially) on social (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/social) media (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/media):
Virtue signalling (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/signalling) is the popular (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/popular) modern (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/modern) habit (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/habit) of indicating (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/indicate) that one has virtue (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/virtue) merely (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/merely) by expressing (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/express) disgust (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/disgust) or favour (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/favour) for certain (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/certain) political (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/political) ideas (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/idea) or cultural (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/cultural) happenings (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/happening).
(Definition of “virtue signalling” from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary & Thesaurus (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/) © Cambridge University Press)
Many observers point out the act of refuting virtue signaling is itself a form of virtue signaling. I'll have to think about that one.
Sure would. But I’d prefer them to be competent and perhaps a tad less self-righteous. Reagan was a nice change.
Reagan was an actor who acted. He's famous for his tale of a non-existent "welfare queen in a Cadillac," union-busting, Iran-Contra, and more recently "UN monkeys who aren't used to wearing shoes." His stroke of luck was meeting Nancy and her right-wing father who informed his career trajectory. He apparently had no qualms about dropping his pro-union "values" to follow the money. The best thing he did in life, IMO, was to father Ron.
Reagan was an actor who acted. He's famous for his tale of a non-existent "welfare queen in a Cadillac," union-busting, Iran-Contra, and more recently "UN monkeys who aren't used to wearing shoes." His stroke of luck was meeting Nancy and her right-wing father who informed his career trajectory. He apparently had no qualms about dropping his pro-union "values" to follow the money. The best thing he did in life, IMO, was to father Ron.
He also ranks in the top 10 of every historian or scholar list of best presidents, though leftists didn't like him for some reason.
iris lilies
8-29-19, 10:37am
tip: if someone starts talking about virtue signaling ignore the rest of what they are saying, people who use meaningless terms aren't worth engaging. Now there are terms with meaning: hypocrisy, showing off (and with clear terms we so how minor these things are in the scheme of things). And there are actions that are ineffective. And if that's what they meant, well I don't know is this stuff ever sincere, but fine they have poor communication skills.
I straight up disagree with you which is why I am speaking baldly.
I think the phrase “virtue signaling” is perfect for so much of what I encounter on the Internet. So much of the blather I run into, not necessarily here that is true, is knee jerk scolding.
Teacher Terry
8-29-19, 11:10am
Ldahl, the world would be a much better place if everyone was as horrible as jimmy Carter. People criticize him as a president but you are the first person I have ever known to criticize him as a human being. If it wasn’t so sad I would be laughing. Carry on and vote again for your idol the Orange Idiot.
To be fair ldahl doesnt idolize, or even like trump. He just doesn’t seem to think that any other person is any better and that anytime anyone speaks out for somerhing they believe in they are only doing it as a way to prove that they are better than someone like trump, not because they may actually BE better than him.
Ldahl, the world would be a much better place if everyone was as horrible as jimmy Carter. People criticize him as a president but you are the first person I have ever known to criticize him as a human being. If it wasn’t so sad I would be laughing. Carry on and vote again for your idol the Orange Idiot.
I don’t think Carter is a horrible person, just horribly annoying. The late Christopher Hitchens wrote some hilarious stuff on that subject.
And you’re throwing in some other assumptions at no extra charge. I didn’t vote for Mr. Trump, and never thought much of him. You don’t seem to have read or comprehended many of my posts on the topic.
Why bring Trump into every discussion as a sort of shibboleth?
To be fair ldahl doesnt idolize, or even like trump. He just doesn’t seem to think that any other person is any better and that anytime anyone speaks out for somerhing they believe in they are only doing it as a way to prove that they are better than someone like trump, not because they may actually BE better than him.
I think there are plenty of better people than Trump, and some even worse. I wish that right now we were arguing about President Rubio or Walker or Cruz. I’m grateful we are not arguing about President Clinton or Sanders.
Why bring Trump into every discussion as a sort of shibboleth?I think for two reasons:
1. Accusing someone of being a Trump lover is the most severe accusation they can think of, proving that imagination or innovation are not necessary components of liberal arts graduate degrees.
2. They think it separates the woke from the deplorables in a virtue signaling kinda way.
If we’re going to go down the virtue signaling path perhaps we should discuss the most traditional style of virtue signaling known to Americans, waving or otherwise displaying the flag.
If we’re going to go down the virtue signaling path perhaps we should discuss the most traditional style of virtue signaling known to Americans, waving or otherwise displaying the flag.
I think that's more cultural for many of us. You've probably never taken a solemn oath while facing a flag or engaged in Reveille and Retreat ceremonies or received a folded flag from the Office Of The President upon the death of a service member or veteran or been involved in flag protocol logistics wherever they are officially displayed. In that case I can see how you might think treating it respectfully is nothing more than misplaced virtue theatrics.
You’re correct. I didnt receive the flag at the death of a service menber because i knew that my father’s sister would be very appreciative to be the recipient of it. While i have respect for the flag, and acknowledge that my dad thinks that being drafted for the korean war ended up being one of the best things that ever happened to him I also think there are a lot of examples readily available where displays of the flag are not out of any particularly honorable or mindful intention and is the visual equivalent of people shouting ‘USA! USA! USA!’ At international sporting events. If that isn’t virtue signaling i don’t know what is.
iris lilies
8-29-19, 1:11pm
If we’re going to go down the virtue signaling path perhaps we should discuss the most traditional style of virtue signaling known to Americans, waving or otherwise displaying the flag.
Umm “the flag.”
I see a whole hellova lotta displays of the rainbow flag, not only around here. We talked about that with my friend in her tiny town pop. 400 in New Hampshire where they lined the two lane hghway.
And what of all the confederate battle flags. If we’re going to label everything virtue signaling that would certainly qualify as well.
Or catholics who walk around on ash wednesday with a dirty forehead. The list is potentially endless.
At the end of the day almost everyone considers various things/organizations/whatever to be worth supporting and may display support of same. If one happens to also support it one doesn’t consider it virtue signaling. And if not then one will view it as proof of some flaw in that person. Calling that ‘flaw’ virtue signaling is just adding a fancy-pants name to that reaction.
There are all kinds of flags; personally, I like the Cascadia fir and the Canadian maple leaf.
Scoundrels have traditionally wrapped themselves in a national flag, or in the case of our Dear Leader, wrapped himself around it.
I'm not sure how the stars and stripes conflate with a secular gay pride banner; I'd opine they are two different--though not opposing--symbols. I've seen them flown together.
I'm not sure how the stars and stripes conflate with a secular gay pride banner; I'd opine they are two different--though not opposing--symbols. I've seen them flown together.We've settled the argument of whether or not it's a hate crime to burn the American flag, it's actually a civil right which must be celebrated. I wouldn't make any assumptions on the rainbow variety.
when a gay person displays the gay pride flag it hasnt been about some sort of ‘virtue signaling’ it’s been a repudiation/rejection of the once widely held view that gay people were somehow deficient. Perhaps one could argue that a straight person displaying it was/is ‘virtue signaling’ but for gay people that’s simply not the case. Someone burning it is a pretty clear indication of their hate of gay people. The difference between burning a gay pride flag versus burning an american flag (in america at least) is that the american flag represents a broad majority of the population but the gay pride flag doesn’t.
I would say that--considering that many, many straight persons have gay friends and relatives--flying the rainbow flag may simply be a declaration of solidarity.
Certainly people have the right to burn any and all flags as an expression of protest.
I think virtue signaling can be a real if somewhat subjectively determined thing. As opposed to the simple exercise of a particular version of virtue. I think you need to look at it in terms of sincerity and smugness. Harvey Weinstein vowing to give the NRA sleepless nights to distract from his sexual harassment issue. Jussie Smollett defying his imaginary attackers. Pretty much any entertainment industry awards show for the last decade or so. The mob demanding that Kramer wear the ribbon.
Like pornography, you know it when you see it.
Like pornography, you know it when you see it.
That may be the best definition of virtue signaling I've seen to date.
when a gay person displays the gay pride flag it hasnt been about some sort of ‘virtue signaling’ it’s been a repudiation/rejection of the once widely held view that gay people were somehow deficient. Perhaps one could argue that a straight person displaying it was/is ‘virtue signaling’ but for gay people that’s simply not the case. Someone burning it is a pretty clear indication of their hate of gay people. The difference between burning a gay pride flag versus burning an american flag (in america at least) is that the american flag represents a broad majority of the population but the gay pride flag doesn’t.
So, you're essentially saying that I (the generic I) must respect your cherished symbols but you (the generic you) have no such obligation towards me and mine. Personally, I don't think the generic you is that special.
No. I’m saying that if you burn a gay flag you probably hate gay people. And if you can’t understand the difference between the symbol of a long oppressed minority and that of a broad majority of the people i probably can’t say anything to help you understand the difference.
I would say that--considering that many, many straight persons have gay friends and relatives--flying the rainbow flag may simply be a declaration of solidarity.
.
I would agree with you. But others will call it virtue signaling because either 1) how could straight people actually care about gay people or 2) even if they do, it’s unseemly that they would make those straight people that dont also support the right of gay people to openly exist look like assholes. The nerve....
I would agree with you. But others will call it virtue signaling because either 1) how could straight people actually care about gay people or 2) even if they do, it’s unseemly that they would make those straight people that dont also support the right of gay people to openly exist look like assholes. The nerve....
You're battling straw men again.
You're battling straw men again.
And you’re showing your lack of empathy again.
Please feel free to explain what those straw men are.
And you’re showing your lack of empathy again.
Please feel free to explain what those straw men are.
Those nameless/faceless folks in examples 1 and 2.
Those nameless/faceless folks in examples 1 and 2.
So is it that you believe that there are no straight people who care about gay people or the idea that there are straight people who hate gay people that you reject?
Asking for a friend who got repeatedly called faggot during his teenage years.
So is it that you believe that there are no straight people who care about gay people or the idea that there are straight people who hate gay people that you reject?
Asking for a friend who got repeatedly called faggot during his teenage years.
It was the local "virtue signalers" limited to your examples.
I'm sorry you were called names during your teenage years, so was I, just different names. If you don't let mean kids of your youth color your outlook I'll try to do the same with the mean adults here who feel obligated to act like them.
frugal-one
8-29-19, 4:29pm
I cannot think of a worse person than trump... that says a lot. He is not respected as a president or as a person by most of the world (albeit the Russians and probably Rocket Man like him because they have something on him or can easily outwit him). The list of his transgressions are innumerable. Every day something else is added to the list. Today his wanting deforestation of Alaska for the logging companies. Also, documentation of trump's buddy, Epstein, using young girls at Mara lago. Just wish he were GONE!
I cannot think of a worse person than trump... that says a lot. He is not respected as a president or as a person by most of the world (albeit the Russians and probably Rocket Man like him because they have something on him or can easily outwit him). The list of his transgressions are innumerable. Every day something else is added to the list. Today his wanting deforestation of Alaska for the logging companies. Also, documentation of trump's buddy, Epstein, using young girls at Mara lago. Just wish he were GONE!
I know. I find myself reeling from his unspeakably cruel policies to his insane proclamations to his crude insults to his incessant lying to his transparent self-aggrandizement. I'm embarrassed that this country that once showed promise has sunk to this. And it's not over.
It was the local "virtue signalers" limited to your examples.
I'm sorry you were called names during your teenage years, so was I, just different names. If you don't let mean kids of your youth color your outlook I'll try to do the same with the mean adults here who feel obligated to act like them.
And here I thought we were having an amazingly polite conversation, given the subject matter. I keep waiting for "Jane, you ignorant slut!"
Anyway, sorry for anyone whose feelings were hurt by my expressed opinions.
I keep waiting for "Jane, you ignorant slut!"
Ha, I can't tell you how many times I've begun to type that but I always delete it for fear of those with no sense of humor who'll take offense for you.
Ha, I can't tell you how many times I've begun to type that but I always delete it for fear of those with no sense of humor who'll take offense for you.
I'd consider it a compliment.
After all, I had a distant cousin who answered to "Dummy." :~)
frugal-one
8-29-19, 5:29pm
Today trump stated that military overseas and diplomats who have children born there.... the children may not automatically be American citizens ... WTH!
IMO, trump's son, Baron, should not be an American citizen. Melanie was not a citizen at the time she gave birth to HIM. Also, what did Melania's parents do to warrant citizenship... other than to have trump as president and get them through the system?
ETA... Don't know how trump could pull this off??? Just checked the 14th Amendment. It can't be just changed by executive order. His way of just causing more drama. Sick.
Teacher Terry
8-29-19, 5:41pm
I loved SNL back in the day when it was funny:)). Every time you think Trump has done the worst thing you can think of short of murder he tops himself. Ugh!
I loved SNL back in the day when it was funny:)). Every time you think Trump has done the worst thing you can think of short of murder he tops himself. Ugh!
Right? He never ceases to amaze me:|(
Thinking more about this virtue signaling thing I’m still stuck on a certain point. Once i have established that i don’t like someone’s opinion on a topic and want to call them a virtue signaler do i also need to establish that they don’t believe what they are saying or does that not matter? For instance, if i don’t like jimmy carter Can i call him a virtue signaler because he has spent decades volunteering to build houses for poor people (which they hypothetical I in this example doesn’t like) or do i have to consider that he might actually care about housing poor people and not actually be attempting to signal his virtue when he does this?
Thinking more about this virtue signaling thing I’m still stuck on a certain point. Once i have established that i don’t like someone’s opinion on a topic and want to call them a virtue signaler do i also need to establish that they don’t believe what they are saying or does that not matter? If I were you I'd approach it in the same manner typically used to declare people who's opinion you don't like as racists, homophobes , misogynists or Trump supporters. That should do it.
Thinking more about this virtue signaling thing I’m still stuck on a certain point. Once i have established that i don’t like someone’s opinion on a topic and want to call them a virtue signaler do i also need to establish that they don’t believe what they are saying or does that not matter? For instance, if i don’t like jimmy carter Can i call him a virtue signaler because he has spent decades volunteering to build houses for poor people (which they hypothetical I in this example doesn’t like) or do i have to consider that he might actually care about housing poor people and not actually be attempting to signal his virtue when he does this?
Houses, houses, houses. I work for Habitat too, although without the cameras and microphones. But I think we can agree I’m a still a deplorable excuse for a human being.
My beef with Carter is his decades of lecturing others where they went wrong as if he was some kind of font of wisdom and moral authority. There’s a reason for the tradition of ex- presidents not quarterbacking from the sidelines.
iris lilies
8-30-19, 9:23am
Houses, houses, houses. I work for Habitat too, although without the cameras and microphones. But I think we can agree I’m a still a deplorable excuse for a human being.
My beef with Carter is his decades of lecturing others where they went wrong as if he was some kind of font of wisdom and moral authority. There’s a reason for the tradition of ex- presidents not quarterbacking from the sidelines.
You just know that President Donald Trump, when he reaches “former President” status, will not honor that tradition.
Teacher Terry
8-30-19, 11:13am
L, yes you volunteer without a microphone or camera because let’s face it neither you or I are worthy of the attention just for volunteering. Carter was President and has spent decades helping others. He is worthy of the attention. He could have just partied, golfed and lived the high life like most of the ex-presidents. Instead his entire life has been to lead by example.
You just know that President Donald Trump, when he reaches “former President” status, will not honor that tradition.
Unless he moves to a country that we don’t have an extradition treaty with.
My beef with Carter is his decades of lecturing others where they went wrong as if he was some kind of font of wisdom and moral authority. There’s a reason for the tradition of ex- presidents not quarterbacking from the sidelines.
Since i was only 13 when carter left office i had not yet learned the joys of vigorously following politics so i don’t remember this. However, i doubt he did it from a position of virtue signaling but instead did it from a belief that he honestly had something to offer. Whether he did in fact have anything meaningful to offer or not is undoubtedly debatable.
frugal-one
8-30-19, 7:12pm
You just know that President Donald Trump, when he reaches “former President” status, will not honor that tradition.
no surprise... he honors no traditions now.
frugal-one
8-30-19, 7:23pm
Given the nature of the job, I suspect any source of income a President reported would be construed as a conflict of interest by somebody.
The only somebody that matter are those who scrutinize government employees. The rest don't matter. All other presidents were scrutinized because they put their cards on the table. The current prez obviously is using the presidency for his own personal interests. Now trump wants to use his resort in Miami for the G7 meeting next year. This he is talking about openly. Talk about conflict of interest!
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