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Ultralight
9-17-19, 8:46pm
What are the top three things that give your life meaning?

(I will not be commenting on anyone's lists(Except for Jeppy's, if they take petty cheap shots on an otherwise pleasant thread). Just curious, perhaps looking for ideas! haha)

Chicken lady
9-17-19, 9:35pm
My first instinct was to list my three biokids, but that didn’t work because it leaves out my other kids.

so, no help to you at all:
my kids
my relationship with my husband
other people’s kids

which is actually a really funny list for an introvert who would happily go a week without seeing or speaking to another human.

ApatheticNoMore
9-17-19, 10:19pm
is my life meaningful? is the question meaningful? Sure some things could be better and more meaningful probably (survival occupied a lot of my time last few years, until recently)

But what occupies my time and mind now voluntarily? (sure work takes time but it's just what I have to do and not meaningful).

- spending time with my bf
- political involvement (along with my bf)
- learning things and thinking about things. I'm INTP, i can't help it (yes sometimes with my bf as we read together)

Tammy
9-17-19, 11:20pm
Reading the theology of Walter Wink

Reading science fiction

Helping people that I cross paths with each day - by treating them kindly

catherine
9-18-19, 7:28am
#1: My family (kids, grandkids and husband)
#2: Curiosity about the world
#3: Finding beauty in the present moment

razz
9-18-19, 8:38am
#1: My family (kids, grandkids and husband)
#2: Curiosity about the world
#3: Finding beauty in the present moment

Ditto for me!

pinkytoe
9-18-19, 9:37am
Family
Nature
Making something better, ie being creative and resourceful in all that I do

Teacher Terry
9-18-19, 12:38pm
Family, friends, dogs.

JaneV2.0
9-18-19, 12:47pm
I don't know that my life needs meaning, but I'm happy to be here.

Yppej
9-18-19, 7:31pm
Family
Work
Living according to my values, including not expecting other people to pick up the tab for my debts

Ultralight
9-18-19, 7:38pm
...including not expecting other people to pick up the tab for my debts
Petty.

Yppej
9-18-19, 7:43pm
I will not be commenting on anyone's lists.
Dishonest.

Yppej
9-18-19, 7:44pm
Petty.

Commentary.

Ultralight
9-18-19, 7:47pm
Dishonest.

A bit.

Ultralight
9-18-19, 7:48pm
Commentary.

Just for you.

Ultralight
9-18-19, 7:53pm
What are the top three things that give your life meaning?

(I will not be commenting on anyone's lists(Except for Jeppy's, if they take petty cheap shots on an otherwise pleasant thread). Just curious, perhaps looking for ideas! haha)

Jeppy, see above. :cool:

Yppej
9-18-19, 7:54pm
Edited at 7:52 by Ultralight. Original promise reneged on.

Ultralight
9-18-19, 7:56pm
Edited at 7:52 by Ultralight. Original promise reneged on.

Serious question, Jeppy. What is your problem with me? Let's work it out. Let's talk.

Yppej
9-18-19, 7:58pm
You make more than me yet are sticking me and other taxpayers with your debts.

Ultralight
9-18-19, 7:58pm
You make more than me yet want me to pay your debts.

Let's assume, for a moment, that the premise of your argument is valid. Why does that bother you so much?

Yppej
9-18-19, 8:00pm
It's regressive, it's unfair, it's reverse Robin Hoodism.

Ultralight
9-18-19, 8:02pm
It's regressive, it's unfair, it's reverse Robin Hoodism.

Lots of things in this world fit those three (individually or in sum), so why does this particular issue with me bother you?

Yppej
9-18-19, 8:04pm
Because you are unrepentant. You brag about your international jet setting lifestyle. You insult people who dare to question your freeloading. You lack character.

Ultralight
9-18-19, 8:08pm
Because you are unrepentant.

Is this really true? Perhaps you are projecting something onto me. I regret every single day taking out so many student loans. Every day I go into my cubicle and do a job all day I really have no affinity for and I am only slightly above average at. I often think: "If I had not taken out those loans, maybe I could be doing something else, something I enjoy or derive meaning from."

But nope.


You brag about your jet setting lifestyle.

I do? Bragging? I am not sure what you are referring to.


You insult people who dare to question your freeloading lifestyle.

I will zing someone back if they zing me first. Can you really blame me? Turnabout is fair play.


You lack character.

Please explain more.

Yppej
9-18-19, 8:18pm
A person with character pays for his mistakes instead of expecting those less fortunate than himself to do so.

Ultralight
9-18-19, 8:22pm
A person with character pays for his mistakes instead of expecting those less fortunate than himself to do so.

Are you less fortunate than me?

Yppej
9-18-19, 8:25pm
There are many taxpayers who never had the opportunity to go to college. They work two or three jobs trying to cover housing, food, and other basics while you fly around the world. The fact that you cannot see the unfairness in them paying your debts shows that you are a narcissist lacking in character.

Ultralight
9-18-19, 8:28pm
Jeppy, here is something I want you to think about. Could it be that back in 2007 when the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program was created by congress and had strong bipartisan support that maybe these representatives thought something like this to themselves:

"Well, we really dropped the ball on a lot of these young college students. College and graduate school just aren't affordable, and part of that was because we failed them at the policy level. Maybe we should do something to make this right, to pay for our mistake as elected representatives of the people. Now, sure, some of these students went way overboard with their loans -- call it youthful indiscretions -- so we won't just forgive the loans outright. How about we make them do ten years of public service and make them pay monthly based on their income for those ten years? Yeah, that sounds like a good compromise!"

Then they passed the PSLF program into law.

Does that sounds as bad as you make it out to be?

Ultralight
9-18-19, 8:33pm
There are many taxpayers who never had the opportunity to go to college.

If someone in the US is intellectually capable of going to college then they can go. They can pay for it several ways -- some join the army or coast guard. Others do Americorps. Some work full time and go part time to college to pay as they go -- which can take a looooong time. Others take out loans. Some folks work low level jobs at colleges to get free tuition. Some employers, like UPS offer some tuition reimbursement.


They work two or three jobs trying to cover housing, food, and other basics while you fly around the world.

If they are working three jobs just to cover their food, housing, and basics, then they are simply doing it wrong. Perhaps you are romanticizing the working poor. Remember, I come from the working poor, the wrong side of the tracks.


The fact that you cannot see the unfairness in them paying your debts shows that you are a narcissist lacking in character.

Narcissist is a very strong label to apply to someone. Are you really sure it fits?

Yppej
9-18-19, 8:34pm
I could possibly support a loan forgiveness program for people living below the Federal poverty level only allowed to have minimal assets, as with other welfare programs - you can only have a car worth a few thousand dollars, no bank accounts over a minimal amount, etc.

Yppej
9-18-19, 8:44pm
If they are working three jobs just to cover their food, housing, and basics, then they are simply doing it wrong.

Blaming the victim.

Ultralight
9-18-19, 8:48pm
I could possibly support a loan forgiveness program for people living below the Federal poverty level only allowed to have minimal assets, as with other welfare programs - you can only have a car worth a few thousand dollars, no bank accounts over a minimal amount, etc.

How many people with one or more university degrees would qualify for this? Why should you be the arbiter of who qualifies for loan forgiveness and who doesn't?

Also, does it really help society to forgive the loans of people who have multiple degrees but for some inexplicable reason can't get a job making $15+ an hour? The people at Whole Foods and Amazon make that and they do not need degrees.

Or would it be more helpful to society to allow educated, skilled folks the opportunity to serve the public by working for the government or 501c3 non-profits for a decade while they make reasonable salaries, make monthly payments based on those salaries, and then be forgiven their remaining debt after those terms are met? This way people in my situation can, if they choose, engage in the economy in a mostly enfranchised way. If I was married, I could very easily buy a house. If I wanted to, I could afford to have a family. I was able to buy a car, rent an apartment, and -- yes, afford some luxuries. For me these are once or twice a year trips to foreign countries. I can afford these trips because I don't own a house or have kids and because I live frugally otherwise in a sparsely furnished apartment and so forth.

Ultralight
9-18-19, 8:52pm
Blaming the victim.

Explain to me how working three jobs just to cover the basics makes any sense to anyone. I grew up deep in the working poor. I have never seen someone have to work three jobs to cover their basics.

But you are digressing from the topic. So let's get back to that, if we can.

Yppej
9-18-19, 8:57pm
Explain to me how working three jobs just to cover the basics makes any sense to anyone. I have never seen someone have to work three jobs to cover their basics.

The cost of living is higher on the coasts, especially the cost of housing.
Some people have high out of pocket medical costs, the leading cause of bankruptcy.
Some people have dependents.

These people should not pay for what you admit are your "luxuries". But you are determined to justify your privileges gained at the expense of the less fortunate.

Ultralight
9-18-19, 9:14pm
The cost of living is higher on the coasts, especially the cost of housing.

Okay... I would suggest people who cannot afford to live there move to more affordable locations. Now you might say: "But they can't afford to move!"

What is more costly, a one-time expense of moving to a much lower cost of living area or a lifetime of paying out the wazoo to live on the coast?


Some people have high out of pocket medical costs, the leading cause of bankruptcy.

And as a liberal, I think that we should address this issue by creating a single-payer healthcare system like Canada has, for instance.

I also think these people should eat more vegetables and exercise.

What does this have to do with my Public Service Loan Forgiveness?


Some people have dependents.

How'd that happen?



These people should not pay for what you admit are your "luxuries".

People who are really poor don't pay much or any taxes. So they are not paying for my luxuries. If anything, I am paying for them as I pay taxes that go to many social programs.


But you are determined to justify your privileges gained at the expense of the less fortunate.

You seem oddly fixated on me and on my enrollment in the PSLF program. You seem to begrudge me for making merely $58k.

I went from making $50k to $58k by taking a job in a city/state where I know almost no one and to work for a university whose primary mission is socioeconomic uplift. 42% of our students have an Expected Family Contribution of $0. Over 90% of our students qualify for need-based aid. Over 50% are first generation college students -- the children of the working poor.

While I could have taken other jobs at more prestigious universities (such as the one I left) I chose this one for several reasons. One of this biggest reasons was that I wanted to empower students who come from the same socioeconomic milieu as me with a college education -- something that was absolutely life-changing for me, an unremarkable kid who grew up on the wrong side of the tracks.

Also, I get more money, more vacation time, some other good benefits, and I get to be the member of a union.

Yppej
9-18-19, 9:16pm
How did it happen that people land up with dependents? You tell me. How did you land up supporting a dog instead of paying more on your student loan debts?

Ultralight
9-18-19, 9:27pm
How did it happen that people land up with dependents? You tell me.

Somehow they found time and wherewithal between their three jobs, debilitating medical debts, horrible bankruptcies, lack of opportunity to go to college, payments for my luxuries, and all around hard luck to knock boots? :~)


How did you land up supporting a dog instead of paying more on your student loan debts?

Back when I was in graduate school, about ten years ago, I saw my future dog on Pet Finder. This was a dog in need of rescue! So I went and got my Harlan. The rest, as they say, is history!

Again, you are digressing from the topic we set out to work through. Could it be that you are starting to realize it is time for you to update your beliefs about me and about the PSLF program?

Yppej
9-18-19, 9:38pm
Somehow they found time and wherewithal between their three jobs, debilitating medical debts, horrible bankruptcies, lack of opportunity to go to college, payments for my luxuries, and all around hard luck to knock boots

It's free entertainment (pre-pregnancy).

Ultralight
9-18-19, 9:51pm
It's free entertainment (pre-pregnancy).

Yup, you know you lost this argument. That is why you quit addressing it.

Yppej
9-18-19, 10:14pm
I will never support a regressive program that funds your jet set lifestyle. Social programs should be for the needy not the greedy who have a sense of entitlement to let others pay for their overpriced educational mistakes. You claim to be a liberal but you support a regressive policy rather than a progressive one. $58K is a lot of money in the heartland. It's the average income for a household not an individual. There is nothing poor or deserving of a subsidy about it. But you have no shame and you keep wanting to re-argue the same points rather than admit you are a moocher.

Tammy
9-18-19, 10:18pm
Iíd like to note that my farming family over the years has taken in way more welfare in the form of farm subsidies than Ultralite will ever be able to borrow in student loans.

Many farmers who have done this are millionaires today.

If one is opposed to subsidies, then thereís a lot more than student loan repayment programs that needs to be addressed.

My dad always says he is no different than people on food stamps. He just doesnít have to deal with the social stigma.

Ultralite lives a pretty simple barebones life, other than a few vacations. I think youíre irritated with the wrong person.

Yppej
9-18-19, 10:25pm
Tammy, I appreciate your dad's honesty about the benefits he has received.

Ultralight
9-18-19, 10:34pm
I will never support a regressive program that funds your jet set lifestyle.

Listen to yourself, Jeppy. My jetset lifestyle? I take one or two vacations each year. And this has only been over the past 5 years. Before that it was like every five years. Do you even know what jetset means?


Social programs should be for the needy not the greedy who have a sense of entitlement to let others pay for their overpriced educational mistakes.

Are people who have more kids than they can afford who then send those kids to public K-12 schools greedy people with a sense of entitlement who feel entitled to making others pay for their "entertainment" mistakes?


You claim to be a liberal but you support a regressive policy rather than a progressive one.

Having fun with words, huh?


$58K is a lot of money in the heartland. It's the average income for a household not an individual.

How do you think I got this job? My daddy pulled some strings at the university? Despite going against my middle school and high school guidance counselors' advice, I went to college and did well by working hard, asking questions, actively trying to learn. Then I did well enough that I got into graduate school twice and got two advanced degrees, one of which is directly related to my field which qualifies me for this position. I also got experience in the field in two different organizations (not to mention some internships I did for free along the way).

I grew up in the Heartland on the wrong side of the tracks. I am from the working poor. Don't you understand that?


There is nothing poor or deserving of a subsidy about it.

Wait, what?


But you have no shame and you keep wanting to re-argue the same points rather than admit you are a moocher.

I can't help but laugh at this. LOL I just can't help it! LOL!!!

Ultralight
9-18-19, 10:41pm
Tammy, I appreciate your dad's honesty about the benefits he has received.

Wait, is that all it takes?

Jeppy I am thankful to have an opportunity to serve the public and get the remainder of my student loan debt forgiven. I know this is a program that is helping me and I am glad the elected officials in the government created it.

We cool now?

Teacher Terry
9-18-19, 10:55pm
The average family of 4 in Nevada makes 48k/year. My husband used the GI bill after Vietnam plus worked to get his degrees. We paid cash for mine by working. Our vacations were driving to visit family. My kids had one real vacation driving to DC for a week. On some of my forums people with lots of money tweek their income to get maximum ACA credits. We spend a fourth of our yearly income before taxes for healthcare. Yyeppi, I totally understand resenting people that donít have integrity. I do too but itís legal. I can look at myself and not be ashamed. I think it has a lot to do with how you were raised. My parents were big on integrity and less on what you can get for free. I am grateful for the values that they passed down to us.

Ultralight
9-18-19, 11:16pm
The average family of 4 in Nevada makes 48k/year.

That $48k would go a lot further if they were a family of three, or even two. Right? Darn that free entertainment!

Seriously though, living wage laws need to happen!


My husband used the GI bill after Vietnam plus worked to get his degrees.

Good for him!


We paid cash for mine by working.

How much was college back then?


Our vacations were driving to visit family.

You probably could have gone to Europe if you had chosen not to have kids. So no need to get so high and mighty with your humble-bragging.


My kids had one real vacation driving to DC for a week.

DC is a great destination!


On some of my forums people with lots of money tweek their income to get maximum ACA credits.

I can't blame them.


We spend a fourth of our yearly income before taxes for healthcare.

What health problems do you have? Could they have been prevented with diet and exercise?


Yyeppi, I totally understand resenting people that don’t have integrity.

Who are these some people you refer to? Get specific.


I do too but it’s legal.

What is legal?


I can look at myself and not be ashamed.

Humble-bragging again.


I think it has a lot to do with how you were raised.

Perhaps. I will be the first to admit I was not raised well. I grew up on the wrong side of the tracks by parents with multiple mental illnesses including stage 5 Compulsive Hoarding Disorder. My house had no heat upstairs or AC in the summer. Many nights I shivered myself to a fitful sleep or sweated all night with very little shut-eye. The carpets were soaked with cat and dog piss or caked with blotches of cat and dog feces or vomit. My parents taught me nothing in the way of financial literacy or how to act in professional situations. Every since I can remember as a child I had deep, difficult, long bouts of depression.

Maybe your parents did a really good job of raising you. And that is why you are such a successful person of integrity. Good for you!


My parents were big on integrity and less on what you can get for free.

See my last comment above.


I am grateful for the values that they passed down to us.

Humble-bragging.

Ultralight
9-18-19, 11:34pm
Jeppy, Teacher Terry... keep lobbing those pitches at me.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKCGB2O9lBY

Teacher Terry
9-19-19, 12:00am
No I have always exercised and ate well. My husband risked life and limb in Vietnam. We didn’t have AC and our bedrooms were upstairs. I laid awake many nights sweating. My parents had tough lives but loved us very much like I loved my kids. I have known people with horrible lives that turned out well. Justify all you want. I don’t care. Sorry you had a shitty childhood.

Teacher Terry
9-19-19, 12:01am
No I have always exercised and ate well. My husband risked life and limb in Vietnam. We didnít have AC and our bedrooms were upstairs. I laid awake many nights sweating. My parents had tough lives but loved us very much like I loved my kids. I have known people with horrible lives that turned out well. Justify all you want. I donít care. Sorry you had a shitty childhood.

Yppej
9-19-19, 5:44am
Teacher Terry, I appreciate your integrity and values. Do not let others blame you for high medical premiums which are a function of your age not your lifestyle.

Honesty is a large part of integrity.

Saying you will not comment on things but then doing so is dishonest. Going back and editing your post to cover up your lie is doubly dishonest. Signing papers that you will pay back a loan and then not doing so is dishonest. Acting like you are noble and helping poor students with your high overhead salary which drives tuition inflation is dishonest. Andrew Yang has a plan to cut off Federal financial add to institutions that don't reduce and control their ever spiralling administrative costs. Teachers are what adds value to educational institutions, not administrators who pay for expensive degrees to get expensive academic jobs in a pyramid scheme that is crushing students. Teachers add value the way doctors and nurses add value to medicine. Administrators don't add value the same way insurance companies don't add value in health care.

Yppej
9-19-19, 5:56am
People with kids do not just get to pass on those costs. I know people who have not paid their child support and gone to jail. When is the last time someone went to jail for defaulting on their student loans?

Ultralight
9-19-19, 7:55am
No I have always exercised and ate well.

Privileged.


My husband risked life and limb in Vietnam.

That was his choice.


We didnít have AC and our bedrooms were upstairs.

We have something in common. Except that my parents had an AC unit they put in the window unit of the room they slept in. So they slept fine. But again, not the end of the world. The tough part was those Ohio winters when I would shivering all night.


I laid awake many nights sweating.

Sucks, doesn't it?


My parents had tough lives but loved us very much like I loved my kids.

What does it mean to love one's kids?


I have known people with horrible lives that turned out well.

Do you think I turned out well?


Justify all you want. I donít care. Sorry you had a shitty childhood.

Spoken like a true social worker! LOL

Ultralight
9-19-19, 8:08am
Teacher Terry, I appreciate your integrity and values. Do not let others blame you for high medical premiums which are a function of your age not your lifestyle.

I would say her high premiums are probably because of our rigged profit driven privatized medical system and possibly her bad lifestyle choices, but I am not entirely certain about that. Just speculating.


Honesty is a large part of integrity.

When I was a kid my mom told me: "Integrity is when the person you are on the outside is the same as the person you are on the inside."

So I guess technically someone could be a petty, bitter, insulting person on the outside AND on the inside. What do you think Jeppy? Might be time for some introspection.


Saying you will not comment on things but then doing so is dishonest.

Think of it like a constitutional amendment. Sometimes they have to happen.


Going back and editing your post to cover up your lie is doubly dishonest.

That was to be funny! LOL


Signing papers that you will pay back a loan and then not doing so is dishonest.

I am your bogeyman. haha


Acting like you are noble and helping poor students with your high overhead salary which drives tuition inflation is dishonest.

I want to do some real public good. I am in public service, so why not do things that are good for the public? If I was not in this line of work, I would probably do some other government or non-profit work anyway, or work for a labor union again.

The work that I do has HUGE ROI.


Andrew Yang has a plan to cut off Federal financial add to institutions that don't reduce and control their ever spiralling administrative costs.

I will have to read about this, if what you say is factual (which I am always dubious about).


Teachers are what adds value to educational institutions, not administrators who pay for expensive degrees to get expensive academic jobs in a pyramid scheme that is crushing students.

You are uninformed. The work I do creates scholarships, research funding, etc. The ROI is massive.


Teachers add value the way doctors and nurses add value to medicine.

Some of the work I do creates professorships and funds the research and teaching endeavors of professors.


Administrators don't add value the same way insurance companies don't add value in health care.

This is a laughable false equivalency.

Ultralight
9-19-19, 8:16am
Jeppy, Teacher Terry, I think I figured out what the real fundamental difference between you all and me is. And it comes down to values.

I am just more of a forgiving person than a punitive person, whereas you all are the opposite.

Like if someone has kids they cannot afford, I don't say: "You are a sleaze bag! Pay for your own dang kids!"

I say: "Hey, you should think about not having any more. But the ones that are here, I am cool with paying my taxes to help pay for their healthcare and education and such. People make bad choices sometimes. It is about making better choices in the future and about taking care of each other when we can."

That kind of forgiveness is really not your mentality. I get that. I just disagree with your punitive mentality.

iris lilies
9-19-19, 8:16am
Explain to me how working three jobs just to cover the basics makes any sense to anyone. I grew up deep in the working poor. I have never seen someone have to work three jobs to cover their basics.

But you are digressing from the topic. So let's get back to that, if we can.

Working three jobs is pretty common, but I suspect you have to expand the definition of ďjobĒ to make it apply.

Having a punch-a- time-clock job, a casual job, and a side hustle all at the same time is not at all unusual.

Now, is that effective use of time? Not always IMHO. Some of the side hustles are money -losing propositions like MLM sales. Some of the casual jobs are hit or miss such as raking Mrs. Brownís leaves and shoveling her snow. Helping a sister at her crafts sales booth. Babysitting the kids down the block 2 x per week. Etc.

Ultralight
9-19-19, 8:27am
Working three jobs is pretty common, but I suspect you have to expand the definition of “job” to make it apply.

Having a punch-a- time-clock job, a casual job, and a side hustle all at the same time is not at all unusual.

Now, is that effective use of time? Not always IMHO. Some of the side hustles are money -losing propositions like MLM sales. Some of the casual jobs are hit or miss such as raking Mrs. Brown’s leaves and shoveling her snow. Helping a sister at her crafts sales booth. Babysitting the kids down the block 2 x per week. Etc.

Duly noted. But I would also ask, how common?

From Census.gov:

"Even though the majority of workers held a single job in 2013, 8.3% of workers had more than one job..."

Also:

"While most of these multijob workers only had two jobs, a small percentage (6.9%) worked more than two jobs."

iris lilies
9-19-19, 8:38am
Duly noted. But I would also ask, how common?

From Census.gov:

"Even though the majority of workers held a single job in 2013, 8.3% of workers had more than one job..."

Also:

"While most of these multijob workers only had two jobs, a small percentage (6.9%) worked more than two jobs."
Well, the Census data is the most accurate data we can get. I wont demean it to say that people wouldn't always answer those questions truthfully especially if it came to unreported income, but that is something to consider.

Maybe my view is skewed by my demographic. A fair number of my friends are semi-retired, each with a couple of little jobs and side hustles. I have written here before about several people in their 80s who are still working. One couple, fairly close friends of ours, made so much money last year that they paid $20,000 in income tax, at least that’s what they said. Yikes that still seems super high to me. They also take expensive trips out of the country multiple times a year so the jobs fund their vacations. Getting off track…

catherine
9-19-19, 8:55am
In Vermont, I would guess that many people have more than one job, and could have 3 jobs. It's hard to make a living up here. Every time I've hired someone to fix a tire, or deliver wood, they wind up handing me a card for their carpentry business or landscape business. Cobbling together a string of jobs to make ends meet is very common up here. My son's ex-gf's father sold antiques, had a standing music gig at a local hotel, and taught bridge.

Tammy
9-19-19, 10:07am
There was a time I had three jobs if we stretch the definition. My 40 hour a week job was at a regional jail, my part-time job was consulting 8 to 10 hours a week for an outpatient mental health center, and my side hustle was picking up shifts a few times a month at a local hospital. That was when we needed a lot of money for those expensive teenagers. At the same time my husband had 3 part time gigs which totaled about 50 hrs a week.

There was a time when we were raising three little kids on less than 20,000 a year and did not have health insurance. Our values dictated that we did not accept any public assistance in spite of our near poverty status. We couldíve had full insurance for free for all three children and 400 a month in food stamps. But for four years we didnít accept any of that because of our values.

My values have since changed and Iím angry with my former self for not accepting some help so life could be easier for all of us. We were working and I was in college - it only would have lasted for 4 years but it sure would have helped. There were a few times we were down to two or three days worth of food in the house and almost no cash.

LDAHL
9-19-19, 10:08am
Supporting my family as we progress through life

Doing what I can where I can for other people.

Interesting ideas.

Tybee
9-19-19, 10:13am
That is so common in rural areas where we have lived, and we usually have two and sometimes three jobs because we are cobbling together. There are no "good" jobs with benefits readily available for us, for a variety of reasons, including disability and age. I have heard that Maine, where my son lives, is like Vermont that way, Catherine. Upstate NY was like that when we lived in the country there.

One reason I have two jobs now is that the same job I did when I was pregnant with my son, 38 years ago, paid 1900 then (adjunction a semester class at the the community college) and pays 1500 now (adjuncting at the community college.) So teaching at the college level, in real dollars, has been a disaster for just about everyone I know--add to that that now over half of all college courses are taught by non-tenured faculty and most often, adjuncts. Adjuncts usually cannot get health insurance through the job--I have never been able to, and have been teaching since 1979.

The lovely tenure track jobs that people tend to asociate with being a college professor--gone. According to insider.ed: "Between 2003 and 2013, the study finds, the share of faculty members who were off the tenure track increased from:


45 to 62 percent at public bachelor’s degree-granting institutions.
52 to 60 percent at private bachelor’s-granting colleges.
44 to 50 percent at public research universities.
80 to 83 percent at community colleges."

Anyway, I used to do retail with a PhD, along with teaching college, or as my ex husband used to mock me to the kids--"a PHD who folds towels for a living."

Folding towels paid health insurance, adjuncting does not. It bought groceries, braces and glasses for my kids, and gas for the car. Folding towels paid an $89,000 medical bill for me one year. A medical bill that had nothing to do with exercise or lifestyle and everything to do with genetics.

My husband has two jobs because he can't make it on 38,000 a year, which is what a full time college professor makes.

We have four jobs between us now and we are in our mid 60's.

Believe me, it was not what we expected when we were in our 20's-- or our 30's or 40's.

The world has changed for working people.

ETA: I am very grateful for both my jobs, and I am grateful to have the chance to work at my age. I am REALLY grateful my retail job paid out over $150,000 in hospital bills over the 5 years I worked there, and those were 20 years ago.

I actually really like working, and like my two jobs. And it was always very satisfying to be able to provide for my kids.

catherine
9-19-19, 10:34am
There was a time I had three jobs if we stretch the definition. My 40 hour a week job was at a regional jail, my part-time job was consulting 8 to 10 hours a week for an outpatient mental health center, and my side hustle was picking up shifts a few times a month at a local hospital. That was when we needed a lot of money for those expensive teenagers. At the same time my husband had 3 part time gigs which totaled about 50 hrs a week.

There was a time when we were raising three little kids on less than 20,000 a year and did not have health insurance. Our values dictated that we did not accept any public assistance in spite of our near poverty status. We could’ve had full insurance for free for all three children and 400 a month in food stamps. But for four years we didn’t accept any of that because of our values.

My values have since changed and I’m angry with my former self for not accepting some help so life could be easier for all of us. We were working and I was in college - it only would have lasted for 4 years but it sure would have helped. There were a few times we were down to two or three days worth of food in the house and almost no cash.

I had very similar experiences with our young family, and it's not easy. I have to say that I had a safety net--my MIL, who sometimes filled those terrifying gaps with no judgement although she herself would have met Jeppy's high bar of self-reliance (unless my MIL would be dinged for having her mother and father move in with her to help her when her husband died prematurely.)

My husband always says, "Everyone needs a little help sometimes" and he's right. Whether that help comes from family or the government, asking for help is not a personal failure. That's not easy for me to say--I hate asking for help. I want to know I can do it all myself. But that's not true.

ApatheticNoMore
9-19-19, 10:44am
Wow this thread has devolved in not all that interesting ways. Oh well carry on I guess.

The UL loan issue getting old though, he's paying his loans. I don't get living one's values from this, I get a need to demonstrate superiority.

And over what, aren't their bigger problems in the world, than someone defaulting on their student loans, which isn't even the case here anyway! And aren't there more important values to demonstrate in times like these than ability to pay one's loans? If you never feel the call to greater moral responsibility than that at all, in a world that needs so much, I can't help you. And I never pretend to be particularly good, but I reckon with it.

And let's get this straight politically I DON'T support universal debt forgiveness, or forgiveness of student loans (I do support the ability to declare bankruptcy on them). However there is a larger argument for this than just who gets ahead unfairly (and some might), like all debts have grown to unpayable at this point maybe ... on a society wide level so it's not even about "poor poor debtors", who often aren't all that poor, but whether its' all payable at all on a society wide level.

And you'd be surprised at how much of the debt people carry is medical debt, if ever there was a debt to forgive, people get sick, and no it's not it's not their fault in most cases (so stuff it with healthy diet and lifestyle, that's all good, but that doesn't explain why middle age people end up with medical debt usually). Medical debt first.

LDAHL
9-19-19, 10:48am
I wonder if it isnít time to reconsider whether our educational service delivery systems are serving us as well as they could. Is the four year degree still a reasonable outcome, or is it just a sort of obsolete vocational credential or status marker or means of extending childhood?

Are there better ways to build, measure and document educational attainment? Are effective scholars necessarily the most effective teachers? Are elite schools necessarily the best schools, or are are they simply a sort of barrier to entry?

Should we subsidize gender studies but not plumbing studies? Are some areas of study more in the public interest than others? Canít professional qualifications be established through exams and certifications? Can we accept education obtained over the internet as well as that obtained in lecture halls?

LDAHL
9-19-19, 10:55am
And aren't there more important values to demonstrate in times like these than ability to pay one's loans?

Not if youíre the lender.

Tybee
9-19-19, 11:09am
I wonder if it isn’t time to reconsider whether our educational service delivery systems are serving us as well as they could. Is the four year degree still a reasonable outcome, or is it just a sort of obsolete vocational credential or status marker or means of extending childhood?

Are there better ways to build, measure and document educational attainment? Are effective scholars necessarily the most effective teachers? Are elite schools necessarily the best schools, or are are they simply a sort of barrier to entry?

Should we subsidize gender studies but not plumbing studies? Are some areas of study more in the public interest than others? Can’t professional qualifications be established through exams and certifications? Can we accept education obtained over the internet as well as that obtained in lecture halls?

These are really good questions.

JaneV2.0
9-19-19, 11:09am
I wonder if it isn’t time to reconsider whether our educational service delivery systems are serving us as well as they could. Is the four year degree still a reasonable outcome, or is it just a sort of obsolete vocational credential or status marker or means of extending childhood?

Are there better ways to build, measure and document educational attainment? Are effective scholars necessarily the most effective teachers? Are elite schools necessarily the best schools, or are are they simply a sort of barrier to entry?

Should we subsidize gender studies but not plumbing studies? Are some areas of study more in the public interest than others? Can’t professional qualifications be established through exams and certifications? Can we accept education obtained over the internet as well as that obtained in lecture halls?

I couldn't agree more. We need more tradespeople, and a solid apprenticeship structure.

All this wrangling about college loans is probably moot--only about one percent of such are forgiven, if news reports are accurate.

LDAHL
9-19-19, 11:22am
I couldn't agree more. We need more tradespeople, and a solid apprenticeship structure.


You know we have an imbalance when itís easier to find a cardiologist than a finish carpenter.

LDAHL
9-19-19, 11:53am
These are really good questions.

I donít have any decent alternatives, but the current system seems to be based on a medieval organizational platform with elements of the hospitality and consumer finance industries bolted on, and staffed largely through a sort of piece work arrangement.

Maybe we should turn the whole thing over to Amazon or Uber to figure out.

Tybee
9-19-19, 12:02pm
I don’t have any decent alternatives, but the current system seems to be based on a medieval organizational platform with elements of the hospitality and consumer finance industries bolted on, and staffed largely through a sort of piece work arrangement.


Very true, especially the hospitality industry and consumer finance industries!! You should see the townhouse dorms the upstate NY college I worked at was putting in back in 2008. They were real townhouses, gorgeous. And way beyond what anyone in the community could afford to live in, and they were being transplanted into this rural community to attract students from NYC (I think!)

Lots of development aimed at getting international students, because they could pay the freight.

Teacher Terry
9-19-19, 1:02pm
First of all it was not my husband’s choice to go to Vietnam. He was drafted. A good friend of mine spent a year in the hospital after being shot 4 times and being one of the few survivors of a battle in Vietnam. He died 4 years ago from a rare cancer caused by agent orange. My retiree insurance cost are based on a formula relating to years of service. I only had 15 years so pay the full cost. When working it was subsidized. Health has NOTHING to do with my cost. I believe in people taking care of themselves if necessary and a strong safety net for the less fortunate. People in my town now need a income of 80k to qualify for a loan to buy a house. Rents have skyrocketed and unaffordable for many.

Gardnr
9-19-19, 1:25pm
Oh my how this has devolved into dirt throwing:(

How does my life have meaning?

I am an independent and interdependent woman-raised to take care of myself. Raised to set a goal AND hit it no matter the ups and downs! Raised to get through hard times and turn crap around. I am forever grateful to my parents for showing me that life can be good when there is not an extra penny to be had and I learned NO doesn't mean they don't love me.

I have a wonderful relationship with my husband and approaching 40 years married.

I am connected to my family that is sprinkled across 4 states. We all attend major family events and have a 1week reunion every 5 years for that face time!

I love growing our food and making wonderful meals from it as well as sharing the bounty in the 'hood and at my now prior workplace.

I am a creative soul. Giving handmade gifts and donating quilts to local charity to fill warm hug needs makes me happy.

I'm a RN and had a wonderful career of nearly 39 years in the OR. It gave me great happiness to make a positive difference in the lives of my many patients. And when they died in my care, to be gentle and respectful in their care until my role was finished. I worked with many amazing providers and peers. A wonderful career of which I am very proud.

pinkytoe
9-19-19, 2:55pm
what a full time college professor makes
Tenured professors at the state university where I worked before retiring made no less than $160K per year - many were closer to $250K not to mention all the bennies. During the last five years of my employment, tuition/fees doubled. The old student co-ops and dorms were demolished and replaced with luxury dorms and apartments for the students. I would have nothing against some sort of national trade or infrastructure rebuild program to employ/educate all the lost, homeless youth out there.

LDAHL
9-19-19, 3:03pm
Tenured professors at the state university where I worked before retiring made no less than $160K per year - many were closer to $250K not to mention all the bennies. During the last five years of my employment, tuition/fees doubled. The old student co-ops and dorms were demolished and replaced with luxury dorms and apartments for the students. I would have nothing against some sort of national trade or infrastructure rebuild program to employ/educate all the lost, homeless youth out there.

One of the things the nonprofit I work for does is to work with kids aging out of the foster care system to adapt to life on their own. So many of them have no resources at all to make the transition to self support. Something like you describe would be life-changing for them.

catherine
9-19-19, 3:24pm
This is in the NYT today--people weighing in on their college experiences related to being able to afford it... or not.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/09/19/opinion/paying-college-tuition.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

rosarugosa
9-19-19, 4:53pm
I have no issue with UL making use of the student loan forgiveness program. If I were inclined to be concerned about that sort of thing, I would be far more concerned with the many FI people (some quite affluent) who are using the ACA to subsidize their health insurance. But I'm not too concerned about them either. These programs are in place and of course people are going to use them. If something feels unethical to me, then I won't do it, but I think we each get to make this decision for ourselves when we are talking about using a program legally. I will save my ire for Amazon not paying any federal taxes or our public leaders who enjoy benefits and pensions beyond what most of us can imagine. UL seems to live very simply and frugally so that he can travel, so good for him! I suspect he travels rather frugally too. I wouldn't be surprised if our week in Niagara cost more than one if not both of his international trips; it just doesn't sound as exotic.
So back to the original topic. What gives my life meaning? I am not religious so I have 3 broad categories:
Finding happiness for myself
Extending kindness to others (who are likewise seeking personal happiness)
Demonstrating good stewardship of the planet, its resources and the other creatures sharing the planet

Yppej
9-19-19, 7:13pm
Andrew Yang spoke about administrative costs of higher education in Plaistow NH. It is sad that adjuncts are so undercompensated and they are the ones actually educating students, not the administrators who are much better paid.

Ultralight
9-19-19, 7:34pm
That is so common in rural areas where we have lived, and we usually have two and sometimes three jobs because we are cobbling together. There are no "good" jobs with benefits readily available for us, for a variety of reasons, including disability and age. I have heard that Maine, where my son lives, is like Vermont that way, Catherine. Upstate NY was like that when we lived in the country there.

So my sincere question is: Why not move somewhere that you can get a good job?

Ultralight
9-19-19, 7:37pm
I wonder if it isnít time to reconsider whether our educational service delivery systems are serving us as well as they could. Is the four year degree still a reasonable outcome, or is it just a sort of obsolete vocational credential or status marker or means of extending childhood?

Are there better ways to build, measure and document educational attainment? Are effective scholars necessarily the most effective teachers? Are elite schools necessarily the best schools, or are are they simply a sort of barrier to entry?

Should we subsidize gender studies but not plumbing studies? Are some areas of study more in the public interest than others? Canít professional qualifications be established through exams and certifications? Can we accept education obtained over the internet as well as that obtained in lecture halls?

I think a journeyman's card is as good as a college degree. Some people frown on trades, I don't. That is valuable work. I used to work for a trade union.

Ultralight
9-19-19, 7:43pm
First of all it was not my husband’s choice to go to Vietnam. He was drafted.

He had a choice and you know it. He could have:
-Told the guys at the induction center he was gay
-Went to Canada
-Been a conscientious objector
-Enlisted in a branch and got a MOS that kept him away from Vietnam and in the rear with the gear

Saying he did not have a choice is a BS answer.


A good friend of mine spent a year in the hospital after being shot 4 times and being one of the few survivors of a battle in Vietnam.

That would not have happened to him in Montreal.


He died 4 years ago from a rare cancer caused by agent orange.

My dad had Agent Orange poisoning too. He was a medic.


My retiree insurance cost are based on a formula relating to years of service. I only had 15 years so pay the full cost. When working it was subsidized. Health has NOTHING to do with my cost. What?


I believe in people taking care of themselves if necessary and a strong safety net for the less fortunate.

Yeah, me too. So?


People in my town now need a income of 80k to qualify for a loan to buy a house. Rents have skyrocketed and unaffordable for many.

Then find a new town. Why do people think they are entitled to live in the part of the country they want AND to get a great job there?

Ultralight
9-19-19, 7:43pm
Andrew Yang spoke about administrative costs of higher education in Plaistow NH. It is sad that adjuncts are so undercompensated and they are the ones actually educating students, not the administrators who are much better paid.

Adjuncts should be paid more. Some unionize and do get better pay and benefits.

Ultralight
9-19-19, 7:54pm
Jeppy (and maybe Teacher Terry), here is my question for you. What kind of punishment would I have to endure to satisfy you all?

Here is one possible scenario:

I could opt-out of the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Plan and the Income-based Repayment. This would make my monthly payment go from about $250 to roughly $1,600 a month. After taxes and deductions I take home about $3,200 a month (give or take). So I could pay the $1,600 loan payment each month. But how would I live on $1,600 a month? And my loan would probably never get paid down because of compounding interest (I owe about $170,000). So I would have to pay $1,600 until I die. And if I could live on the $1,600 a month left after my loan payment I could not save for retirement. I'd literally work until I die and live on the very verge of financial collapse if something went wrong or there was an accident. Life would get more and more risky as I got older. My life would be toil and joylessness. I could never buy a house. I could not help family members if they needed it. I could never buy another car, and I would probably have to sell the one I have at some point to cover an emergency. I would have to give up my dog (I think Jeppy suggested this before), maybe give him away or have him euthanized if I could not re-home him.

So Jeppy, Teacher Terry, if I went this route, would that satisfy your punitive inclinations? I ask seriously.

Yppej
9-19-19, 7:55pm
High administrative costs drive up the price of college. So colleges hire fundraisers to get money for scholarships. Of course those fundraisers cost money, further driving up tuition and fees, necessitating more scholarships. It is great for the administrators and terrible for the students with tuition inflation well above normal inflation rates and with no end in sight.

Ultralight
9-19-19, 8:04pm
High administrative costs drive up the price of college. So colleges hire fundraisers to get money for scholarships. Of course those fundraisers cost money, further driving up tuition and fees, necessitating more scholarships. It is great for the administrators and terrible for the students with tuition inflation well above normal inflation rates and with no end in sight.

What makes you an expert in the field of higher education budgets and university fundraising? I ask because it is blatantly obvious you have no clue what you are talking about.

Yppej
9-19-19, 8:04pm
Jeppy (and maybe Teacher Terry), here is my question for you. What kind of punishment ... how would I live on $1,600 a month? ... I could not save for retirement... My life would be toil and joylessness.

It is not a punishment. It is the consequences of your choices. If this program did not exist would you claim you are being punished?

Get roommates or get a second or third job.

There are many, many people whose sole source of retirement income is Social Security.

It is sad if money is your only source of joy.

You feel as a college educated person you are entitled to a certain lifestyle now and in retirement. If you were doing it on your own fine, but you are not entitled to live above your means with subsidies from people less fortunate than you. Only a narcissist would have the entitlement mentality you have.

Ultralight
9-19-19, 8:06pm
Jeppy, there is something very personal in your dislike of me. Others on here have alluded to it in their posts from time to time.

I think maybe you have some regrets or resentment in your life and it made you petty, bitter inside. And for this reason you need to lash out at someone. That someone seems to be me.

Your behavior is kind of obsessive and creepy in its own way.

Yppej
9-19-19, 8:08pm
Don't post questions asking for feedback, and promising not to criticize it, if you can't handle the answers.

Yppej
9-19-19, 8:10pm
Jeppy, there is something very personal in your dislike of me. Others on here have alluded to it in their posts from time to time.

I think maybe you have some regrets or resentment in your life and it made you petty, bitter inside. And for this reason you need to lash out at someone. That someone seems to be me.

Your behavior is kind of obsessive and creepy in its own way.

I see you called me names instead of responding to my points on supposed punishment, living within a budget, retirement savings and sources of joy.

Ultralight
9-19-19, 8:14pm
It is not a punishment. It is the consequences of your choices. If this program did not exist would you claim you are being punished?

So let me change my wording. Would the "consequences" I outlined above be enough to satisfy you?

Do you think that people who use tobacco or alcohol and then suffer illnesses from those habits should be refused healthcare? Like for lung cancer for instance? Do you think that people who have kids they cannot afford should face the consequences of their actions and they should have their kids become wards of the state or some such? How consistent are you in this principle of yours that people should pay the consequences of their actions in full?


Get roommates or get a second or third job.
For life? I would already have to do that if I chose the aforementioned scenario.


There are many, many people whose sole source of retirement income is Social Security.

That is a horrible fate.


It is sad if money is your only source of joy.

You are the one who is so bitter about me making more money than you (and being more successful in every way with my life). You are the one obsessed with having to "pay" for my "jetset lifestyle." You seem to be the one fixated on money. And it has turned you into a rather bitter person, judging by your twisted obsession with me.


You feel as a college educated person you are entitled to a certain lifestyle now and in retirement. If you were doing it on your own fine, but you are not entitled to live above your means with subsidies from people less fortunate than you. Only a narcissist would have the entitlement mentality you have.

LMAO!

You keep telling me how I feel.

Ultralight
9-19-19, 8:15pm
Don't post questions asking for feedback, and promising not to criticize it, if you can't handle the answers.
I am handling the answers. LOL. In fact, I am trouncing you in this argument and it stings, doesn't it?

Ultralight
9-19-19, 8:19pm
I see you called me names instead of responding to my points on supposed punishment, living within a budget, retirement savings and sources of joy.
Did I call you names or did I apply adjectives to your behavior?

Yppej
9-19-19, 8:28pm
Teacher Terry seems happy with her life and I am happy with mine.

I have a job I like. There are numerous people in my life who love and value me. I am not desperate for a date as I have many interests in life including in the wonderful local area where I live.

That doesn't mean I like able-bodied adults who mooch off others.

Ultralight
9-19-19, 9:14pm
Teacher Terry seems happy with her life and I am happy with mine.

Maybe Teacher Terry is. But you... I doubt that. Otherwise you would not have this creepy obsession with me.


I have a job I like.

How do you feel about it paying so much less than mine, especially since I am much younger and earlier in my career than you? (See how it feels when someone lobs petty, passive-aggressive insults at you? Not fun, right? Maybe time you stop doing it now that you know how it feels.)


There are numerous people in my life who love and value me.

Doubt it. LOL


I am not desperate for a date as I have many interests in life including in the wonderful local area where I live.

Keep telling yourself that.


That doesn't mean I like able-bodied adults who mooch off others.
Who are you referring to?

jp1
9-19-19, 10:22pm
I wonder if it isnít time to reconsider whether our educational service delivery systems are serving us as well as they could. Is the four year degree still a reasonable outcome, or is it just a sort of obsolete vocational credential or status marker or means of extending childhood?



It's just another way of keeping poor people down. I got my 4 year credential almost 30 years ago. In the entire time since then I have had precisely zero potential employer express any interest in it beyond the fact that I have it. No interest in what I studied. No interest in how good or poor my grades were. No interest in what institution it came from, beyond the fact that said institution used to have a kick-ass football program. But that degree has helped me obtain a steadily rising resume of "4 year degree required" jobs that did not utilize any particular aspect of the education I got from that institution.

Teacher Terry
9-19-19, 10:41pm
Here’s the deal. Many of the items you mentioned to avoid Vietnam are dishonorable. When you are called to service it’s important to serve. Because his draft number made it inevitable he did the best thing he could by joining the marines and going in with a job guarantee so he wasn’t fighting in the jungle. He was repairing aircraft engines and also trained to do AC/heating repair. Still sent there and people were murdered on base and traveling between bases. I have no reason to move as I moved here when things were cheaper and we own our house. I feel sorry for younger people. I think there is a more reasonable payment between what you are paying and that huge payment. However, it’s legal. But there are so many inequalities with rich people getting breaks they don’t deserve. I would never want you to give up Harlan. That’s a tiny expense in the big scheme of things. Yes I think your debt should come before owning a home. I also think kids have no counseling before borrowing such huge amounts of money for degrees that will never pay off. Lenders are to blame also. I am not queen of the world so it doesn’t matter what I think. I just try to live my values. Everyone is different. What is so hard to understand about my HC cost. Based on years of service. Every year past 15 would have made my premium less.

Ultralight
9-19-19, 11:14pm
Here’s the deal.

Sounds like a bad deal to me.


Many of the items you mentioned to avoid Vietnam are dishonorable.

Who defines what honor is? Who believes it?

Civil Disobedience (going to Canada) seems fine to me. Being a conscientious objector seems plenty honorable to me.

I remember when I was 12 my dad and I were talking about Vietnam. He was a medic there with the Marines (though he originally joined the Navy). I remember I said: "If there was another war like Vietnam, I would go to Canada."

He flipped out on me! He was very angry. But I stood up for my beliefs. Now, when I was actually military age my beliefs were more that I would just go to jail, like: "I am opposed to unjust wars and I will not take part. Go ahead and prosecute me. I will go to jail."

To me, that feels much more honorable than engaging in an unjust war.


When you are called to service it’s important to serve.

Is it? Lots of cops in Alabama got called to serve in the 1960s. They put attack dogs and fire hoses on children. But it is important that they served when called by Bull Connor, right?


Because his draft number made it inevitable he did the best thing he could by joining the marines and going in with a job guarantee so he wasn’t fighting in the jungle.

That may have been the best thing he thought to do. But again, he probably would have had a lot more fun in Montreal.


He was repairing aircraft engines and also trained to do AC/heating repair.

My dad joined the Navy when he was 17 in 1964. From 65-66 he volunteered to go to Vietnam, though he could have just stayed on a boat and gone to Japan again.

I feel my father made the wrong choice.


Still sent there and people were murdered on base and traveling between bases.

Murdered by whom?


I have no reason to move as I moved here when things were cheaper and we own our house.

Wait, so you moved to a place that was affordable? Thanks for proving my earlier points.


I feel sorry for younger people.

So long as they are not in the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program, right? Those PSLF younger people have no integrity and were raised by bad parents. Gotcha!


I think there is a more reasonable payment between what you are paying and that huge payment.

There is. It would be to stay on the Income Based Repayment plan (my payments are about $225 a month). But here is the thing. I could pay this until I was 200+ years old and never pay the debt off. Compound interest would mean I stay in debt until I die. Then I would be a dead moocher for eternity.

But here is the catch. For everyone who has government student loans the longest they can pay is 25 years. So everyone becomes a freeloading mooch if they cannot pay off their debt in 25 years.


However, it’s legal.

Legal does not make something right or wrong. Transporting slaves on the underground railroad was illegal. Segregation was legal. You do the math.


But there are so many inequalities with rich people getting breaks they don’t deserve.

Yeah, which is exactly why you should be so darned upset about people on the Public Service Loan Forgiveness plan. They are horrible beyond description.


I would never want you to give up Harlan.

Thanks. You love dogs too.


That’s a tiny expense in the big scheme of things.

Tell that to your best friend Jeppy.


Yes I think your debt should come before owning a home.

I have almost zero interest in buying a house.


I also think kids have no counseling before borrowing such huge amounts of money for degrees that will never pay off.

I was one of those kids who had no counseling.


Lenders are to blame also.

Agreed.


I am not queen of the world so it doesn’t matter what I think.

I think you are walking back some of your earlier statements because I called you out for sounding downright anti-social work.


I just try to live my values. Everyone is different.

I just try to live my values. Everyone is different. Uh... yeah.

Teacher Terry
9-20-19, 12:00am
Murdered by the Vietnam people. The soldiers always only half slept. My husband said that the people on base that were working were killing people at night. When we married he warned me to wake him up from nightmares at a distance. He is 73 and still has issues. It would certainly be your right to be a objector. Seriously I try not to focus on the injustices of the world. Plus we all have our own world view. I admire your dedication to your dog and I would live in my car before I would desert my babies. I hate it when people act like animals are disposable. I have people that will take ours if we both die. It’s one reason we have downsized from 4 to 2 by natural attrition. You could comfortably pay 500/month. Doing the math this would come closer to paying off your debt. But again it’s a individual decision.

jp1
9-20-19, 12:23am
Looking back at my dad's life I can remember having a discussion with him that is somewhat related. He had been drafted during the Korean war. He ended up going to Germany as part of the "peace-keeping force" No serious risk to his life, other than sleeping in a tent for 15 months in Germany's climate. He came back to the US after and applied to the post office to be a rural mail carrier. He was granted extra points on the civil service test because he was a veteran. Eventually he was offered a job by the post office but by then he had made other life plans so he (thankfully in my opinion) didn't take the rural carrier job. I was a teen when he told me this and I asked "why should you have gotten extra points?" His response: "because I served my country when they needed me."

For better or for worse congress decided that we needed to incentivize people to work in certain areas and offered student loan forgiveness as that incentive. Ultralight is taking advantage of that legal incentive. I don't see how it's any different than the incentive offered to my father when he got done serving in a non-war-zone in 1952.

Teacher Terry
9-20-19, 12:40am
Everyone in my family served in WW 2. My dad was in Europe. We Anything that they receive they deserved. Tomorrow I am going to a funeral for my BF’s dad that at 19 was trapped behind enemy lines in Korea because he was sent up a mountain to repair a communications line and left behind when they encountered fire. He survived by putting on a Korean soldiers uniform and marching with them at night and falling out of line in the morning. He was small and the koreans never looked each other in the eye. He had a 80% disability and still worked his entire life. Yes we are taking advantage of free burial for my husband in a veterans cemetery and paying 400 for me. Veterans earned it. They deserve to be hired first for government jobs.

jp1
9-20-19, 12:42am
And honestly, there are all sorts of things in life that just aren't fair. Thinking more about my father, he retired in 1992 with approximately $200,000 in assets invested in the stock market. He never touched those assets again for the rest of his life. He died 25 years later and they were valued at roughly $700,000. Thanks to the US tax code my sister and I paid $0 tax on that capital gain. Multiply that out over the top 0.1%'s various death capital gains resets and now you might start to figure out who you need to be angry at. And it ain't Ultralight.

ApatheticNoMore
9-20-19, 2:01am
He never touched those assets again for the rest of his life. He died 25 years later and they were valued at roughly $700,000. Thanks to the US tax code my sister and I paid $0 tax on that capital gain. Multiply that out over the top 0.1%'s various death capital gains resets and now you might start to figure out who you need to be angry at. And it ain't Ultralight.

So you want us to be angry at you? That is a heck of an inheritance.

Yppej
9-20-19, 5:45am
With his family connections Al Gore could have gotten out of going to Vietnam, but he went because if he didn't someone else from his small town in Tennessee would have been drafted to go instead. He is honorable.

There are many dishonorable people not just UL. For instance, I see able-bodied panhandlers in my city although there is a labor shortage in the area. They like to mooch off others.

Ultralight
9-20-19, 7:48am
Murdered by the Vietnam people.

I don't think it is considered murder during war. In war the opposing countries' soldiers kill each other. Those are not considered murders, they are considered casualties.

And "the Vietnam people" are called Vietnamese.


It would certainly be your right to be a objector.

Is that dishonorable?


Seriously I try not to focus on the injustices of the world.

Why?


I hate it when people act like animals are disposable.

Then talk to your best friend Jeppy about that.


I have people that will take ours if we both die.

I wish my parents would think about this issue. I worry for their dogs.


You could comfortably pay 500/month. Doing the math this would come closer to paying off your debt. But again itís a individual decision.

What?

Ultralight
9-20-19, 7:54am
With his family connections Al Gore could have gotten out of going to Vietnam, but he went because if he didn't someone else from his small town in Tennessee would have been drafted to go instead. He is honorable.

So you are saying Gore literally saved someone else from being drafted by volunteering for the military? What is the name of the man Gore saved?

Do you even know how conscription worked during the Vietnam Era?


There are many dishonorable people not just UL. For instance, I see able-bodied panhandlers in my city although there is a labor shortage in the area. They like to mooch off others.

There are lots of internet bullies who have creepy obsessions with people, not just Yppej.

jp1
9-20-19, 9:05am
So you want us to be angry at you? That is a heck of an inheritance.

Yeah. If someone is going to be angry at ultralight for taking advantage of the student loan forgiveness program they should be angry at me and my sister for getting a $75k tax break just for being born to the right parent.

LDAHL
9-20-19, 9:41am
And honestly, there are all sorts of things in life that just aren't fair. Thinking more about my father, he retired in 1992 with approximately $200,000 in assets invested in the stock market. He never touched those assets again for the rest of his life. He died 25 years later and they were valued at roughly $700,000. Thanks to the US tax code my sister and I paid $0 tax on that capital gain. Multiply that out over the top 0.1%'s various death capital gains resets and now you might start to figure out who you need to be angry at. And it ain't Ultralight.

If you find the step-up in basis on inherited securities to be ethically problematic, you can always send the Treasury Department a check.

LDAHL
9-20-19, 10:06am
It's just another way of keeping poor people down. I got my 4 year credential almost 30 years ago. In the entire time since then I have had precisely zero potential employer express any interest in it beyond the fact that I have it. No interest in what I studied. No interest in how good or poor my grades were. No interest in what institution it came from, beyond the fact that said institution used to have a kick-ass football program. But that degree has helped me obtain a steadily rising resume of "4 year degree required" jobs that did not utilize any particular aspect of the education I got from that institution.

I suppose at minimum it establishes the holder showed up for classes and was able to please professors to the extent that they granted him a degree. I would suspect there are more efficient ways to document a personís ability to show up and perform basic tasks, however.

ApatheticNoMore
9-20-19, 10:27am
I suppose at minimum it establishes the holder showed up for classes and was able to please professors to the extent that they granted him a degree. I would suspect there are more efficient ways to document a person’s ability to show up and perform basic tasks, however.

and the job market in it's infinite wisdom (ha), is not much interested in those other ways, however efficient they may be. And are they really efficient? I mean the degree thing is as lazy as you can get for an employer, it's pre-screening based on a check box (actual screening is the interview process etc.). If you are making an argument it's not efficient for the job seeker to get education that is many cases ends up not even applying to the work they actually end up doing, well ok but that probably doesn't matter. It is as low effort as possible for the companies looking for employees and that's what matters. So job seekers live in the real world and act accordingly, chase after the degree or even advanced degrees etc.

Seeing employers as basically "lazy" (or seeking the least effort possible) when seeking an employee is probably a pretty accurate and useful way to view the job market (such might be human nature but truthfully they are busy and finding an ideal employee isn't their main task either). Not that it provides the magic solution if caught in non-fruitful job hunting, nah there often is no such thing, just keep keeping on but ...

catherine
9-20-19, 10:29am
I feel there is such a stigma against people who are not college educated. I remember when my high-school drop-out son became a teaching golf pro and followed the sun all year working hard from sunup to sundown teaching the college-educated folk how to play golf.

I ran into one of his elementary-school friends in the supermarket during that time and she asked me how he was doing. I told her, with pride, that he was a PGA teaching pro teaching golf in Vermont, Florida, and Arizona, and she went "Meh. I guess it's better than working at McDonalds." He subsequently wound up getting a job at Rutgers so he could get tuition remission and go to Rutgers Law School, and he worked at his job during the day and went to school nights and weekends, and graduated with a law degree with no debt.

I have another son with no debt who decided not to go to college at all. He serves tables so he can live out his passion as a singer/songwriter. But he is so self-conscious when people ask him what he does, and he is sure his lack of college degree is why he has been "between girlfriends" for a while now. Yet, today, his boss sent him a review on the restaurant he works in where the reviewer gave the restaurant 5 stars and called out my son's service specifically as being a reason for the high rating.

I LOVE an MLK quote that speaks to the honor in any work, and I've taught this to my kids:

"Whatever your life’s work is, do it well. Even if it does not fall in the category of one of the so-called big professions, do it well. As one college president said, 'A man should do his job so well that the living, the dead, and the unborn could do it no better.' If it falls your lot to be a street sweeper, sweep streets like Michelangelo painted pictures, like Shakespeare wrote poetry, like Beethoven composed music; sweep streets so well that all the hosts of Heaven and earth will have to pause and say, 'Here lived a great street sweeper, who swept his job well.'”

This feels off-topic, but it speaks to the issues around education supporting (or not supporting) a life well lived.

razz
9-20-19, 11:08am
There sure is a lot of snarkiness in this thread. Why can't people simply be grateful for the benefits each of us has received that the rest of the world is striving to obtain? I have been really poor and hungry at times, and, struggling with challenges but was glad to be alive and overcoming them, albeit gradually. Now I am more secure and comfortable but have the same sense of gratitude. Just don't understand the snarkiness.

LDAHL
9-20-19, 11:18am
In terms of the working world, I donít know what the good alternatives might be. Some professions like law and public accounting require exams and continuing education. The IT industry has many different certifications with differing levels of acceptance.

I donít know if AI will make things better or worse. Making people take job entrance exams will probably create a lot of questions about the tests fairness and cultural biases.

I think to a large degree we use degrees as a sort of status signal. Iím thinking of those stickers people like to put in the rear windows of their cars to advertise their college affiliation.

jp1
9-20-19, 11:42am
It's interesting. After all those years where employers wanted to know that I had a degree before they would even discuss a job opportunity with me my current boss never asked or cared during the interview process. He was only concerned with what skills and accomplishments I had from my last job. We had several conversations about my thoughts and opinions relating to the job at hand and how I would handle various different account issues that are likely to come up in the day to day work activities and my responses revolved around real examples from my last job. It was only after I'd been offered the job that HR got involved, asked for a copy of my resume and went about verifying that the 4 year university credential on my resume was one that I'd actually obtained. But I couldn't have gotten the previous job which gave me the relevant experience for my current job without the degree, despite the degree having nothing to do with the work at hand at that job or the current one.

Alan
9-20-19, 11:47am
I have a college degree and a DD 214. Guess which one provided me the greatest value.

LDAHL
9-20-19, 12:05pm
I have a college degree and a DD 214. Guess which one provided me the greatest value.

I only put in seven years, so my DD214 gets me half off on a pizza every Veterans Day and a flag for my coffin. Of course, I couldnít have gotten a commission without the degree.

As to potential employers, maybe 60% viewed being a USAF officer as a positive and 40% saw it as a delay to the start of my ďrealĒ career. Some few seemed to have a visceral contempt for all things military, but that seems to have declined over time.

jp1
9-20-19, 12:11pm
If you find the step-up in basis on inherited securities to be ethically problematic, you can always send the Treasury Department a check.

That wasn't my point. My point was that if Jeppy wants to be angry about government giveaways there are plenty of more worthy causes than the student loan forgiveness program, which at least has reasonable intentions behind it. Me getting a big tax break because I won the birth lotto probably doesn't benefit society nearly as much as student loan forgiveness.

frugal-one
9-20-19, 12:30pm
I have a college degree and a DD 214. Guess which one provided me the greatest value.

If you worked for the government, both. You get more for pension as military service counts.

LDAHL
9-20-19, 12:41pm
If you worked for the government, both. You get more for pension as military service counts.

In my case, the state pension plan didnít count military service, but did allow me to buy those seven years at the current value of what contributions plus investment earnings would have been. Whether that turns out to be a good deal will depend on how long my wife and I live.

Teacher Terry
9-20-19, 12:46pm
Ul, my last comment on the Vietnam war. It’s called murder because they weren’t killed by soldiers. They were murdered on their own base by civilians that they employed to work on the base. Try and go 13 months only half sleeping.

Ultralight
9-20-19, 1:18pm
Ul, my last comment on the Vietnam war. It’s called murder because they weren’t killed by soldiers. They were murdered on their own base by civilians that they employed to work on the base. Try and go 13 months only half sleeping.

I think that is called guerrilla warfare. That was what Vietnam was. Were they Civilians or were they Viet Cong? Also, if those attacks were so rampant that no one on base could sleep, then why would the US Military continue to employ them? This story of yours is fishy.

Ultralight
9-20-19, 1:19pm
That wasn't my point. My point was that if Jeppy wants to be angry about government giveaways there are plenty of more worthy causes than the student loan forgiveness program, which at least has reasonable intentions behind it. Me getting a big tax break because I won the birth lotto probably doesn't benefit society nearly as much as student loan forgiveness.

Be careful. Seriously. Jeppy could develop a creepy obsession with you too.

Ultralight
9-20-19, 1:29pm
Jeppy: Here is something I want you to mull over.

You have called me "lacking in character" and "dishonest" and "dishonorable," a "moocher" and a few other things.

Why? Because I am in the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program.

So my question to you is this: Is this how you assess everyone's character? On one particular issue while ignoring all the other attributes that make a person who they are?

I am many other things besides a participant in the PSLF program.

I am:
-A rescue dog enthusiast
-A vegetarian
-A brother, a friend, an uncle
-A son
-A black belt in Ju Jitsu
-A former activist for GLBTQ rights and marriage equality
-A union member
-A state university employee
-An avid reader

And so on.

ApatheticNoMore
9-20-19, 2:18pm
I have a college degree and a DD 214. Guess which one provided me the greatest value.

considering veterans have higher homeless rates than the general population (of course this has many causes, they usually start out poorer and minority and that means life is hard) and college grads probably lesser, i'm going with better to go to college.

Alan
9-20-19, 2:29pm
considering veterans have higher homeless rates than the general population (of course this has many causes, they usually start out poorer and minority and that means life is hard) and college grads probably lesser, i'm going with better to go to college.
I can't show any evidence of my degree contributing to a moderately successful career, I didn't earn the degree until the career was well on its way. My DD 214 though, that made all the difference.

LDAHL
9-20-19, 2:59pm
considering veterans have higher homeless rates than the general population (of course this has many causes, they usually start out poorer and minority and that means life is hard) and college grads probably lesser, i'm going with better to go to college.

One caution: many of the stats various groups compile about homeless vets are base on self-reporting by the homeless. It is fairly common for them to lie in order to appear more sympathetic. The groups are happy to use that information because itís easier to raise funds for troubled veterans than the common run of drug addict.

frugal-one
9-20-19, 4:00pm
My college degree made ALL the difference in the world for me getting a good job. I got into the government based on "merit scholar"... meaning you had to have at least a 3.85 GPA. My degree cost me around $5,000. I wrote a proposal for each position I held at any job telling them how a class would help me do the job there. I figured the worse they could say to me was no. So, many times classes, as well as, books were paid in full.

JaneV2.0
9-20-19, 4:34pm
I had only one job that required a degree, and I'm not sure even of that one. My silly little Arts and Letters degree wasn't and isn't worth much, which is, coincidentally, what I paid for it. I'll do it differently next time around.

catherine
9-20-19, 4:49pm
I mentioned my two sons: my third son works for a public community college and he, like UL, will benefit from the student debt forgiveness program when he hits 10 years. He earns very little, and it's difficult for him and his wife to support the two children they probably "couldn't afford", so he is a target for both Jeppy and UL. He, like Jeppy and UL, is a REALLY GOOD HUMAN BEING. We all do the best we can. We all benefit from living in this country, and sometimes things work against us. It all works out in the end. Just like in a marriage, sometimes you have to give 80% and one day you'll have to accept 80% in help but most of the time it's 50/50.

Yppej
9-20-19, 5:00pm
Catherine your third son is the sort of person deserving of loan assistance. He isn't using taxpayer subsidies to jet around the world every 6 months. It sounds like the loan forgiveness program could benefit from means testing. Some schools like Yale have loan forgiveness programs for their graduates but they are only for low earners, not middle or upper class folks.

Teacher Terry
9-20-19, 5:50pm
I needed both my masters to work in the 2 fields that I did. They were a requirement and I had to be licensed. Catherine’s son is the type of person that loan forgiveness is for.

Ultralight
9-20-19, 6:09pm
Catherine your third son is the sort of person deserving of loan assistance.

Jeppy, how is it that you are the expert on who deserves loan forgiveness and who doesn't?


He isn't using taxpayer subsidies to jet around the world every 6 months.

But he is using tax payer subsidies to have kids he could not afford. Is having kids you can't afford a luxury enshrined in a protective bubble? Is one luxury you cannot afford any different than another luxury you cannot afford?

Here is the difference: I think Catherine's son should definitely get the benefits from the PSLF program! Sure, I think it was a bad idea to have kids he could not afford. But should that bad idea, that one thing he did, prevent him from having an opportunity to better his life? Should it condemn him to a life of toil and misery? My answer is no.


It sounds like the loan forgiveness program could benefit from means testing.

Explain.


Some schools like Yale have loan forgiveness programs for their graduates but they are only for low earners, not middle or upper class folks.

What is your point here?

Ultralight
9-20-19, 6:18pm
Catherine’s son is the type of person that loan forgiveness is for.

I agree.

I would add that he is not the only person it was made for.

Here is what is so frickin' wacky about TT and Jeppy's anti-logic.

They are upset that I am not poor enough for their standards for the PSLF program.

So they want me to pay so much more back each month that I would then become poor enough to qualify (in their minds) for PSLF.

LMAO!

But wait, there is more TT/Jeppy lunacy here.

Since I was thereby made poor by being in student loan debt and not by any other bad choice I would deserve my poorness and be disqualified from any form of assistance.

Makes perfect sense. LOL

Ultralight
9-20-19, 6:20pm
Regarding Catherine's 3rd son, my question to TT/Jeppy is this:

How much of a raise would he have to get to become a dishonorable moocher? What would it take for you all to attack the character of Catherine's son? $10,000 more in salary? $5,000? $15,000? Where is the line?

Come on. Speak up. Cast some stones.

catherine
9-20-19, 6:20pm
Here is the difference: I think Catherine's son should definitely get the benefits from the PSLF program! Sure, I think it was a bad idea to have kids he could not afford. But should that bad idea, that one thing he did, prevent him from having an opportunity to better his life? Should it condemn him to a life of toil and misery? My answer is no.



I never said he couldn't afford them (that's why I put it in quotes). I really don't know why I put my son in the firing squad. I wasn't asking for adjudication on my son's decision to work for a low-paying public institution, and I certainly didn't ask for judgement on his family choices (and there are circumstances that I did not and will not elaborate on). My point is that once we become taxpayers, we buy in, as citizens, to the administration of policies that we hope will better the lives of other citizens. We could go from house to house of people on food stamps and beat them up for buying soda or Tastycakes, but that's not going to happen. If you don't like the policy, vote the people who voted for it out of office.

Ultralight
9-20-19, 6:24pm
I never said he couldn't afford them (that's why I put it in quotes). I really don't know why I put my son in the firing squad. I wasn't asking for adjudication on my son's decision to work for a low-paying public institution, and I certainly didn't ask for judgement on his family choices (and there are circumstances that I did not and will not elaborate on). My point is that once we become taxpayers, we buy in, as citizens, to the administration of policies that we hope will better the lives of other citizens. We could go from house to house of people on food stamps and beat them up for buying soda or Tastycakes, but that's not going to happen. If you don't like the policy, vote the people who voted for it out of office.

For the record: I am defending your son. He sounds like a good guy.

catherine
9-20-19, 6:25pm
For the record: I am defending your son. He sounds like a good guy.

Thank you. I think you'd like him and vice versa.

Yppej
9-20-19, 7:30pm
It is easy to means test. A multiple of the Federal poverty level is commonly used, which takes into account family size and the fact that children benefit society. Countries with birthrates below death rates suffer economically unless they have significant immigration. Some countries give a child allowance to all parents to encourage procreation. My grandmother got this for her kids in underpopulated rural Saskatchewan.

Ultralight
9-20-19, 8:19pm
It is easy to means test. A multiple of the Federal poverty level is commonly used, which takes into account family size and the fact that children benefit society.

Hmmm... you don't know much about the PSLF program do you? Man, I just keep taking you to school! LOL Maybe you should call me professor.

The PSLF program already does this type of thing. Catherine's 3rd son, because he makes a very low salary and is married with kids, probably pays little to nothing each month. The lower your salary the less you pay in the PSLF program. The higher your salary, the more you pay. For instance, since I went from making $50,000 to making $58,500 I will have to pay more each month.

If you have kids and you make very little salary you can literally make $0 payments each month for ten years and have the entirety of your loan and interest forgiven.


Countries with birthrates below death rates suffer economically unless they have significant immigration.

What does this have to do with this discussion?


Some countries give a child allowance to all parents to encourage procreation.

What does this have to do with this discussion?


My grandmother got this for her kids in underpopulated rural Saskatchewan.

It feels like you are changing the subject because you realize how badly you keep losing this argument but you are afraid to admit that and simply update your beliefs about the PSLF program and about me.

Also: You don't answer any of my questions to you because you know I have you trapped into looking foolish because your ideas on this topic are utterly foolish.

Yppej
9-20-19, 9:58pm
You have bashed Catherine's son and numerous other people for having children you think they cannot afford. You do not recognize the benefits of children to society.

Ultralight
9-20-19, 10:05pm
You have bashed Catherine's son and numerous other people for having children you think they cannot afford.

You are lying. I defended him. I even told Catherine I was defending him. And I will continue to defend people like him.


You do not recognize the benefits of children to society.

You are really feeling the squeeze, huh? The constricting feeling of being caught in your own bad idea that you just won't disavow.

This is why you are afraid to actually address my points and answer my questions.

At least Teacher Terry bowed out of this conversation. I can respect that.

You keep flailing and flopping around, uninformed, seemingly incapable of making a coherent point.

Ultralight
9-20-19, 10:05pm
Jeppy, your passive-aggressiveness has the watermark of a powerless person.

Ultralight
9-21-19, 8:41am
You have bashed Catherine's son and numerous other people for having children you think they cannot afford. You do not recognize the benefits of children to society.

Hey Jeppy, I thought more about this comment of yours. What is really striking is how much it reveals about you.

Just go above and read my statements of support for Catherine's son. Read her responses.

It is also obvious how you are trying to do that very passive-aggressive thing where you try to turn others against me with your little lies. Again, the watermark of a powerless person.

And the way you are relentlessly moving away from the topic that you originally tried to put front and center because you realized how wrong you are.

What really dawned on me this morning is that the reason you lie and are passive-aggressive and why you have this creepy obsession with me is that you are probably mentally ill or possibly emotionally sick in some way. Maybe you had a really bad romance with a man decades ago and it left you so psychologically damaged or maybe you just have some kind of mental illness from genetics. I don't know what the cause is, but after trouncing you in this argument over and over and over I started to feel like sad for you, like pity. Yes, I felt pity for you.

So look, say whatever you want about me. Say whatever you want about the PSLF program. If that opens up the valve and releases steam for you -- great! Maybe it keeps you from losing it mentally/emotionally and doing something potentially dangerous.

Once I realized this about you, I just don't feel right about arguing with you anymore. It doesn't feel ethical for me to argue this way with someone who has some sort of mental/emotional condition that makes them say and behave in anti-social, creepy, obsessive ways.

So when you insult me or start grinding your ax against me in the future, I am simply going to wish you well. Because I do wish you well and I hope you can eventually overcome whatever mental/emotional condition you have.

Take care.

iris lilies
9-21-19, 8:55am
Gee, that is a whole lotta speculation about yppejís mental status. I wouldnt take that to the bank.

But by all means, stop Responding to her, UL, for whatever reason because that would be a good thing.

Ultralight
9-21-19, 9:10am
Gee, that is a whole lotta speculation about yppej’s mental status. I wouldnt take that to the bank.

But by all means, stop Responding to her, UL, for whatever reason because that would be a good thing.

Yes, it is speculation. I am not and did not try to diagnose her with anything specific. But her behaviors I noted in there -- accurate! The passive-aggressiveness, the creepy obsession with me, etc. But I could have said:

"Jeppy, you seem like a mentally and/or emotionally unstable person. So I feel bad for you and don't intend to argue with you anymore."

NewGig
9-21-19, 4:02pm
My relationships: husband, his family, friends and neighbors. The beautiful place I live. The work I've done emotionally. In short, where I am, now.

catherine
9-21-19, 4:13pm
My relationships: husband, his family, friends and neighbors. The beautiful place I live. The work I've done emotionally. In short, where I am, now.

Thank you for getting this train back on track :)

herbgeek
9-21-19, 5:29pm
I am not and did not try to diagnose her with anything specific. But her behaviors I noted in there -- accurate! The passive-aggressiveness, the creepy obsession with me, etc. But I could have said:

How is continuing to argue the same points with the same person over and over and over for many months not also a creepy obsession?

Ultralight
9-21-19, 6:18pm
How is continuing to argue the same points with the same person over and over and over for many months not also a creepy obsession?

Again, Jeppy pokes me and that is cool, right? But I poke back and it is some heresy? Come on.

herbgeek
9-21-19, 6:34pm
Again, Jeppy pokes me and that is cool, right? But I poke back and it is some heresy? Come on.

My point being that you call her engaging with you a "creeepy obsession" but you also do the same thing back. You could choose to not engage. But you don't. Not sure why. I think she is being petty and passive aggressive, but your behavior is not much better.

Ultralight
9-21-19, 6:34pm
Then when Jeppy harshed the mellow of this cool thread, no one said anything to her. When she insulted my character on here, no one said anything to her. So I figured I had a right to argue back. Is that not accurate?

Ultralight
9-21-19, 6:38pm
My point being that you call her engaging with you a "creeepy obsession" but you also do the same thing back. You could choose to not engage. But you don't. Not sure why. I think she is being petty and passive aggressive, but your behavior is not much better.

So why are you not vocally criticizing her? Instead, you come after me for arguing back at her, literally in defense of my own character which she attacked.
Makes perfect sense.

Herbgeek, also, let this be known. I have no idea if you are male or female or how you self-identify. But I am arguing with you and picking apart your critical posts of me. Why? Because I disagree with you. See how that works?

Teacher Terry
9-21-19, 8:37pm
Arguing with a pig is like wallowing in the mud. Both get dirty but the pig enjoys it.

JaneV2.0
9-22-19, 11:40am
Arguing with a pig is like wallowing in the mud. Both get dirty but the pig enjoys it.

That pretty much sums it up.

Yppej
9-22-19, 12:02pm
In keeping with the pig metaphor, can PLSF be considered pork barrel politics?

ApatheticNoMore
9-22-19, 2:40pm
In keeping with the pig metaphor, can PLSF be considered pork barrel politics?

no it's a very narrow program that in no real way can be considered pork barrel politics I don't think. Universal student loan forgiveness would be a form of pandering (not actually universal of course as not everyone has student loans) but even then that's not the definition of pork barrel politics.

And pork barrel politics is better than what we have now anyway. It's "you vote for a bridge in my district and I'll vote for a highway in yours", possibly wasteful but at least ALLOWING some sensible legislation if the right trades were made. Now we can't even pass an infrastructure bill. We have hard partisanship (not ideology as only a few really seem to have principles, so much as just raw partisanship) plus extreme corporate influence. It's a mess.

happystuff
10-12-19, 5:15pm
This has been a tough one for me to answer as I initially had no clue. Now I think that the top three things definitely change as time and as I change. But right now, I think my top three are:

1- my family - both immediate, extended and dragged in (lol) and my friends - new and old
2- actually living and behaving in a manner consistent with my spiritual beliefs as often as possible
3- being kind to others. I often forget that I am not so busy that I can't go out and help my elderly neighbor bring in her groceries or call the recent widower down the street just to say "hi".

pony mom
10-28-19, 8:48pm
1-Learning constantly

2-My animals

3-Appreciating everything/everyone around me.

Ultralight
11-7-19, 8:00am
It is not a punishment. It is the consequences of your choices. If this program did not exist would you claim you are being punished?

Get roommates or get a second or third job.

There are many, many people whose sole source of retirement income is Social Security.

It is sad if money is your only source of joy.

You feel as a college educated person you are entitled to a certain lifestyle now and in retirement. If you were doing it on your own fine, but you are not entitled to live above your means with subsidies from people less fortunate than you. Only a narcissist would have the entitlement mentality you have.

Okay, boomer.

Ultralight
11-7-19, 8:01am
The average family of 4 in Nevada makes 48k/year. My husband used the GI bill after Vietnam plus worked to get his degrees. We paid cash for mine by working. Our vacations were driving to visit family. My kids had one real vacation driving to DC for a week. On some of my forums people with lots of money tweek their income to get maximum ACA credits. We spend a fourth of our yearly income before taxes for healthcare. Yyeppi, I totally understand resenting people that donít have integrity. I do too but itís legal. I can look at myself and not be ashamed. I think it has a lot to do with how you were raised. My parents were big on integrity and less on what you can get for free. I am grateful for the values that they passed down to us.

Okay, boomer.

iris lilies
11-7-19, 10:19am
I think $58,000+ is a nice salary, tho the State of Illinois will do everything they can to take it from you.

In Chicago, there is a moving tax.When you move from one place to another, tax ya!

my current 3 things giving my life meaning besides Dh is, as always,

1) creative endeavers with flowers, growing and using them

2) communing with bulldogs

3) community centered around old buildings and flowers

sweetana3
11-7-19, 5:58pm
IL, is this the moving tax you are referring to: https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/verify-can-illinois-tax-you-for-moving/63-565e1f64-6e65-4576-a234-93e7d41c1325

Tammy
11-7-19, 10:31pm
Ultralight!!!

iris lilies
11-7-19, 11:22pm
IL, is this the moving tax you are referring to: https://www.ksdk.com/article/news/verify-can-illinois-tax-you-for-moving/63-565e1f64-6e65-4576-a234-93e7d41c1325

that may be it. Thanks for pointing out it is bogus.

my friend who has a brother in Chicago told me about it. I figured it wasn't so much a ďmoving taxĒ as a fee they slapped on for occupancy inspection, or a fee for registering an address with the City, or some such thing.

herbgeek
11-8-19, 8:01am
Only one thing gives your life meaning and he's it? Maybe you two could get together.

This attack on Tammy was unwarranted and petty. We all understand your distaste for UL, but no need to insult/attack other people because they express surprise that he's posting.

Alan
11-8-19, 6:26pm
There is no recent post from Ultralight in this thread to express surprise at.Yesterday was pretty recent.

Yppej
11-8-19, 6:36pm
My bad. I missed it because his avatar changed. I will remove those posts.

FYI am not a boomer. I am younger than that. But a troll would not know that.

Ultralight
11-8-19, 6:45pm
My bad. I missed it because his avatar changed. I will remove those posts.

FYI am not a boomer. I am younger than that. But a troll would not know that.

Wait for it... wait for it... Okay, boomer.

Ultralight
11-8-19, 8:50pm
Ultralight!!!

Hey, hope all is well! :)

Ultralight
11-8-19, 8:52pm
This attack on Tammy was unwarranted and petty. We all understand your distaste for UL, but no need to insult/attack other people because they express surprise that he's posting.

3003

Tammy
11-8-19, 9:09pm
Yes things are good. We native Ohioans are perhaps a bit too friendly when we havenít seen each other in a while, eh? 😄 Iím glad youíre back.

Tammy
11-8-19, 9:10pm
No problem - it did appear that ultralight gave my life meaning. Sort of humorous. 😄

Ultralight
11-8-19, 9:14pm
Yes things are good. We native Ohioans are perhaps a bit too friendly when we haven’t seen each other in a while, eh?  I’m glad you’re back.
Ohio diaspora forever. :)

klunick
1-10-20, 10:12am
I would define "give your life meaning" as what I think defines me as Me!

1 my family- they love me no matter what and are truly the only people in this world that I know will have my back no matter what.
2 my career- I think what I do for a living made me the person I am today and gave me the self-esteem I never had and something to be proud of.
3 my town- I went from a big city girl to a small town girl and the small town life fits me perfectly and being there gives me peace in my life.

izzy95
4-24-20, 4:30pm
Music, sports, family