View Full Version : Impeachment?
It’s sounding like Nancy Pelosi has opened the door to impeachment hearings over Trump’s Ukraine idiocy. Is this a good thing or a bad thing for her party’s interests?
On the one hand, it could backfire if the public perceives it as mere partisan politics, which could especially hurt Democrats in the districts they turned over in 2018. It could also distract attention from the presidential candidates trying to get their message across. Unless they can turn up some really damning stuff, it seems unlikely they would get twenty Republican senators to vote to remove Trump before the next election.
On the other hand, it could give them a sort of reality show to beat up their opposition for thirteen months. They might even use it to shut down production at the judicial appointment factory for some period of time. If they managed to tar the whole GOP with the Trump brush, they could reap benefits for years to come.
I could see it going either way.
Interesting that some of the same people who bemoaned the special breaks given to George W. Bush because his daddy was president now are outraged about the spotlight being turned on Hunter Biden, who got $50,000 a month from his Ukrainian gig because his daddy was vice president.
I think this whole impeachment thing is interesting. Pelosi has successfully resisted the mistake of giving in to the radical elements of her party up till now, but then announces the impeachment inquiry the day before the transcript of the call it's based upon is released.
Didn't they learn anything from that whole Mueller report fiasco where they kept everyone's hopes up for so long only to have them bashed. If this whistleblower thing doesn't pan out the way they hope they may be sabotaging Warren's bid for the White House before it has a chance to be formalized.
There may be a chess game in play here but if so it must be multi-dimensional because the strategy is beyond me.
Did he announce he would release the transcript before she announced the inquiry?
I am confused--wouldn't the optics be better for her to have transcript out first in case it seems innocuous on hearing/reading it?
Did he announce he would release the transcript before she announced the inquiry?
I am confused--wouldn't the optics be better for her to have transcript out first in case it seems innocuous on hearing/reading it?
I totally agree... I am on the side of those who think that this could be a big mistake for the Democrats. UNLESS there is some egregious misuse of power--but even so, Trump voters will not care. He is right that he could kill someone in Times Square and get away with it. He can abuse women and get away with it. There's a whole long list of things that he's gotten away with--so colluding with a foreign leader for his own political interests is going to be a big "so what" in the minds of much of the country.
Did he announce he would release the transcript before she announced the inquiry?
Yes
flowerseverywhere
9-24-19, 9:59pm
You seriously think a sanitized release of the transcript is enough from this White House? Remember Nixon, “I am not a crook.” The actual tapes finally made the truth come out.
The whistleblower report plus tapes of the phone call is the only way to the truth. Whatever the truth is, the people are sick of this. Unfounded allegations should be put to rest. The law needs to be followed. Wasn’t the whistleblower required to be released to congress by law?
In the meantime, we are sending troops to SAUDI ARABIA??? Why? Trump is calling the Nobel prize committee rigged against him. Nuts.
frugal-one
9-24-19, 10:32pm
I think this whole impeachment thing is interesting. Pelosi has successfully resisted the mistake of giving in to the radical elements of her party up till now, but then announces the impeachment inquiry the day before the transcript of the call it's based upon is released.
Didn't they learn anything from that whole Mueller report fiasco where they kept everyone's hopes up for so long only to have them bashed. If this whistleblower thing doesn't pan out the way they hope they may be sabotaging Warren's bid for the White House before it has a chance to be formalized.
There may be a chess game in play here but if so it must be multi-dimensional because the strategy is beyond me.
The Mueller deal showed what a scumbag trump really is. The whistleblower is showing the same. I would rather see trump in prison. He is truly a bad actor.... literally and figuratively. We all know nothing will happen though. bill barr and the senate are in trump's pocket.
I don't think we know enough yet to pass judgement, so it does seem premature. If T actually did say explicitly or by some form of innuendo that Ukraine's financial aid was dependent upon them delving into dealings with Hunter Biden, then it hints at extortion and at the least abuse of presidential power. That seems pretty simple to me, but I'm not a legal expert.
flowerseverywhere
9-25-19, 5:08am
I doubt we have many attorneys here, but the senate has many, as well as the house. The Senate, who has been silent on much of the craziness and contradictions yesterday unanimously voted to release the whistleblower complaint to the intel committees. So that should be good enough for the rest of us.
If Trump would put down the tweeting machine, much of the craziness would have gone largely unnoticed as people go about their lives. Tweeting foreign policy changes, firings, policy and worst of all insults to our long cultivated allies does not seem to me to be a long term winning strategy for our country. All the tweets are archived and part of the public record so there is no denying some crazy stuff has gone out.
Is impeachment a good or bad thing? Time will tell. It didn’t seem to affect Clinton in the long run but of course the “boys will be boys” crimes are far treated differently than alleged treason or perjury type crimes.
The Mueller deal showed what a scumbag trump really is. The whistleblower is showing the same. I would rather see trump in prison. He is truly a bad actor.... literally and figuratively. We all know nothing will happen though. bill barr and the senate are in trump's pocket. I know its frustrating to have those folks fail to punish based upon lack of crime. Don't they know prison is justified because we just don't like him?
I find it refreshing that nobody seems to be talking about a special prosecutor this round. It looks like this will be more of a DIY project.
I know its frustrating to have those folks fail to punish based upon lack of crime. Don't they know prison is justified because we just don't like him?
It's my impression that a crime doesn't have to be committed to be impeached, as in Bill Clinton.
I know its frustrating to have those folks fail to punish based upon lack of crime. Don't they know prison is justified because we just don't like him?
It's my impression that a crime doesn't have to be committed to be impeached, as in Bill Clinton.
That's quite right, but frugal-one won't be satisfied with impeachment, she wants scumbags sent to prison. I wonder if she'd like to see Trump and Clinton share a cell?
The Mueller deal showed what a scumbag trump really is. The whistleblower is showing the same. I would rather see trump in prison. He is truly a bad actor.... literally and figuratively. We all know nothing will happen though. bill barr and the senate are in trump's pocket.
catherine
9-25-19, 11:54am
I just listened to the content of Trump's phone call. Trump is clever. His wording does NOT necessarily definitively seal quid pro quo and from what I can gather at this point, any good attorney will be able to establish that. I am afraid for this impeachment effort and the outcome for the Democrats.
It's my impression that a crime doesn't have to be committed to be impeached, as in Bill Clinton.
Right. Nothing wrong with a voluntary blow job. I was dumbfounded when those impeachment proceedings occurred.
Right. Nothing wrong with a voluntary blow job. I was dumbfounded when those impeachment proceedings occurred.Yeah, but it's the lying under oath part that was the problem.
I just listened to the content of Trump's phone call. Trump is clever. His wording does NOT necessarily definitively seal quid pro quo and from what I can gather at this point, any good attorney will be able to establish that. I am afraid for this impeachment effort and the outcome for the Democrats.
You could be right, depending on whether the public views the process as politically motivated rather than evidence based. That was one of Pelosi’s concerns all along.
If Biden had in fact “gone around bragging” about getting the Ukrainian prosecutor fired to protect his son, then I suspect that would be very helpful for the Warren campaign in the primaries.
If Biden had in fact “gone around bragging” about getting the Ukrainian prosecutor fired to protect his son, then I suspect that would be very helpful for the Warren campaign in the primaries.
Unfortunately, the media may not be able to find any evidence of him bragging about it, especially finding evidence of quid pro quo demands. That sort of damning evidence is soooo scarce.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=17&v=UXA--dj2-CY
Well, I just read the transcript, and it doesn't seem to contain the horrors that the news media promised me.
#disappointed
Yeah, but it's the lying under oath part that was the problem. I know. The stupid fact that he was being grilled about it, is what so annoyed me.
I wish I believe that our country will ever quit nit-picking our elected "servants" and let them do their work holding them ACCOUNTABLE for that rather than this busy body bullshit that has become this daily norm. I realize I am delusional and shouldn't hold my breath for I would die of asphyxiation.
I dunno. I still feel that if Nixon were Trump, he never would have resigned, and he wouldn't have needed to. To his fan base, Watergate would have been a case of sabotage by the media. It's really scary how one person can have that much charisma.
I know. The stupid fact that he was being grilled about it, is what so annoyed me.
Yeah, that precursor to the MeToo Movement couldn't have come at a worse time.
From move on to me too in a single generation.
It will be really interesting to see how this plays out.
I read through Politicos annotated account of the transcript. It wasn't quite a nothing burger, but any indications of extortion were cleverly veiled if at all. Unless something more comes forward, to me it comes down to whether asking a foreign leader to investigate issues related to a political opponent is illegal or abuse of power. I would like to see Trump gone, but this is starting to fall into just a slimy game of thrones ploy on both sides.
flowerseverywhere
9-25-19, 4:38pm
I just listened to the content of Trump's phone call. Trump is clever. His wording does NOT necessarily definitively seal quid pro quo and from what I can gather at this point, any good attorney will be able to establish that. I am afraid for this impeachment effort and the outcome for the Democrats.
It is not an exact transcript, just a memo about it. Crucial words could have very well been modified or left out. Similar to the Barr summary of the Mueller report. There are many questionable aspects of the Mueller report. Not sure about illegal but probably not the best ideas.
Anyone see the talking king points memo that someone sent to the democrats by mistake. Haha. Losers. Can’t even send a memo to the right people. It includes how to critique the democrats by referencing the deep state and other Fox News favorites.
In the meantime Rudy Colludy, Moscow Mitch and Leningrad Lindsey are trending on twitter. Payback is hell when you stand idly by and don’t call out Trumps disgraceful constant name calling and labels (even dead people). Moscow Mitch has been trending for weeks.
I read through Politicos annotated account of the transcript. It wasn't quite a nothing burger, but any indications of extortion were cleverly veiled if at all. Unless something more comes forward, to me it comes down to whether asking a foreign leader to investigate issues related to a political opponent is illegal or abuse of power. I would like to see Trump gone, but this is starting to fall into just a slimy game of thrones ploy on both sides.
It’s a sad commentary on how quickly trump has degraded expectations of our president when it doesn't seem blisteringly wrong that a president would call up a foreign leader and strongly pressure him to dig up dirt on a political opponent for an upcoming election.
And he didnt have to say ‘or i will withhold the defense aid you desperately need.’ Mob bosses don’t have to explicitly say such things. Of course maybe he actually did, since we’ve only seen the white house version of the transcript.
If only he had recounted his explicit threat on camera like Joe Biden did. Then there would be no need for all the dot-connecting.
Trump is known for rarely coming right out and stating the obvious; the threat is implied. Probably an old capo trick taught him as a youth.
I'm not a Trump fan but I swear you Democrats are going to guarantee his re-election. Up until now I thought Nancy Pelosi would keep you guys in line, but we can't count on that anymore.
At this point all we're doing is launching an investigation into whether impeachable offenses occurred. Investigations to determine if something untoward occurred are a key part of that whole "law and order" thing republicans claim to hold dear. I imagine the republicans in the house of representatives, however, will show how they really feel about law and order as this progresses. No doubt they will try to stymie the investigation at every turn in any way they can.
I can only imagine the howls from the right if Obama had called up the leader of a foreign country and pressured them to obtain dirt on his republican competitor in the 2012 election. Especially dirt for a "scandal" that has already been proven to be a nothingburger.
At this point all we're doing is launching an investigation into whether impeachable offenses occurred. Investigations to determine if something untoward occurred are a key part of that whole "law and order" thing republicans claim to hold dear. I imagine the republicans in the house of representatives, however, will show how they really feel about law and order as this progresses. No doubt they will try to stymie the investigation at every turn in any way they can.
I can only imagine the howls from the right if Obama had called up the leader of a foreign country and pressured them to obtain dirt on his republican competitor in the 2012 election. Especially dirt for a "scandal" that has already been proven to be a nothingburger.Dude, they've been investigating him for the past 3 years and have yet to come up with anything worthy of impeachment. I was actually surprised to hear yesterday that there were 6 different House committees engaged in full time investigation to that end.
This whole thing is political and it's going to hurt the Democrats more than help them as it becomes more and more obvious to the general populace. If you really want to get rid of Trump, vote him out of office, otherwise risk making him a martyr. Giving in to the far left of your party is likely to guarantee the latter.
Dude this Ukraine thing just came up this week. If it doesn't deserve investigation than we might as well admit that we have a ****ing imperial president with no constraints under the law and take the constitution out of the smithsonian and put it in the recycle bin. And trump has made clear that his administration is going to stonewall any investigation short of an impeachment investigation. At this point he's left congress no alternative other than completely rolling over and letting him do anything he damn well pleases.
Dude this Ukraine thing just came up this week. If it doesn't deserve investigation than we might as well admit that we have a ****ing imperial president with no constraints under the law and take the constitution out of the smithsonian and put it in the recycle bin. And trump has made clear that his administration is going to stonewall any investigation short of an impeachment investigation. At this point he's left congress no alternative other than completely rolling over and letting him do anything he damn well pleases.
Yes, it just came up and in a few days they can see the complaint and IG report regarding same. They jumped the gun for political purposes, not for investigative.
And the constitution is in the National Archives, or it was when I saw it a couple of years ago.
I didn't see any "pressure" really in the transcript I read, just two clowns ham-handedly congratulating each other and promising to help each other with their various issues.
Unless there's more here, I don't see how this will lead to Trump's Downfall.
Considering that all anyone has seen is what the white house has released it has about as much credibility as if defense attorney barr had written it.* Personally I'll wait to see what the whistleblower actually said. Perhaps that will be learned in, uh, an investigation into the matter.
*and if what was released was the best spin they thought they could put on the matter the truth is probably much worse. But only time, and an investigation, will confirm or refute that.
But on the plus side I guess now it's considered no big deal if the president uses his power of the office to encourage foreign countries to dig up dirt on political opponents. Is it time to start chanting USA! USA! USA! now since we're so awesome that we let the president have this freedom?
frugal-one
9-25-19, 8:40pm
I know its frustrating to have those folks fail to punish based upon lack of crime. Don't they know prison is justified because we just don't like him?
It is not a matter of just not liking him. There is plenty of evidence .. you and many other Republicans... just turn the other way. That is what is so frustrating. Or, barr the law so that trump is protected. It really is disgusting.
frugal-one
9-25-19, 8:44pm
I'm not a Trump fan but I swear you Democrats are going to guarantee his re-election. Up until now I thought Nancy Pelosi would keep you guys in line, but we can't count on that anymore.
HA HA HA. You are definitely a trump supporter! Your head is in the sand.
HA HA HA. You are definitely a trump supporter! Your head is in the sand.
I'm a Democrat, but I agree with Alan. Not because I want Trump to be re-elected, God knows, but the Democrats aren't listening, and they're making the wrong moves.
HA HA HA. You are definitely a trump supporter! Your head is in the sand.
LOL, I'm one of those law and order Republicans that jp1 likes to think no longer exists and you confuse as your ideological enemy (or maybe that's why, I'm not sure). We law and order types insist on factual evidence rather than wishful thinking before sending people off to jail.
Honestly, if someone in the intelligence community felt that the president had crossed a line blatantly enough that he or she felt they needed to file a whistleblower complaint against the president the only responsible action is to fully investigate the situation. One would assume that anyone who could potentially be in that position would have sufficient experience to know right from wrong and also know the ramifications for taking an action like filing that complaint.
One thing I find interesting is that Devin Nunes, not Schiff, was the one to announce that the house would be receiving the whistleblower report. I'm curious if that was him ignoring polite behavior, or if that was intended to signal that the republicans know what's coming out and won't be backing trump once the truth is exposed.
LOL, I'm one of those law and order Republicans that jp1 likes to think no longer exists and you confuse as your ideological enemy (or maybe that's why, I'm not sure). We law and order types insist on factual evidence rather than wishful thinking before sending people off to jail.
How do we know who to send to jail if we don't investigate potential crimes?
How do we know who to send to jail if we don't investigate potential crimes?
I'd say that if 3 years of investigation by multiple sources fails to provide valid charges to justify a trial, you either give up or admit that you're only engaging in political theater in hopes of swaying a gullible public. If I were you I'd be pissed to know that's what they thought of me.
Dude this Ukraine thing just came up this week. If it doesn't deserve investigation than we might as well admit that we have a ****ing imperial president with no constraints under the law and take the constitution out of the smithsonian and put it in the recycle bin. And trump has made clear that his administration is going to stonewall any investigation short of an impeachment investigation. At this point he's left congress no alternative other than completely rolling over and letting him do anything he damn well pleases.
I'd say that if 3 years of investigation by multiple sources fails to provide valid charges to justify a trial, you either give up or admit that you're only engaging in political theater in hopes of swaying a gullible public. If I were you I'd be pissed to know that's what they thought of me.
And I'd say you either didn't read or ignored my previous response.
Yes, it just came up and in a few days they can see the complaint and IG report regarding same. They jumped the gun for political purposes, not for investigative.
And I'd say you either didn't read or ignored my previous response.
No, we'd already covered it.
So the new information about the whistleblower complaint should have been investigated previously. Got it.
You have a future as the next kellyanne conway.
So the new information about the whistleblower complaint should have been investigated previously. Got it.
No you don't have it. It's not that it should have been investigated previously, it has been investigated and the IG report is forthcoming, probably by the end of this week. Congress should know by Friday whether or not they should do what they did yesterday. Wish them luck!
You have a future as the next kellyanne conway.
Incredibly enough, that zinger is remarkably painless. You can do better.
No you don't have it. It's not that it should have been investigated previously, it has been investigated and the IG report is forthcoming, probably by the end of this week. Congress should know by Friday whether or not they should do what they did yesterday. Wish them luck!
Incredibly enough, that zinger is remarkably painless. You can do better.
To be fair i think you’re too intelligent and honest to be the next guiliani.
But i doubt you can rock a silly faux revolutionary war costume as well as kellyanne.
You're right, but when I was younger I could do a bitchin Mark Lindsay. You're probably not old enough to know who he is, check him out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiZrrYRU3pM
Lindsay graham circa 1999:
… because impeachment is not about punishment. Impeachment is about cleansing the office. Impeachment is about restoring honor and integrity to the office.
https://m.dailykos.com/stories/1887836
The hypocrisy. It burns. It will take far more than impeachment to restore any level of honor or iintegrity to the office of president.
No you don't have it. It's not that it should have been investigated previously, it has been investigated and the IG report is forthcoming, probably by the end of this week. Congress should know by Friday whether or not they should do what they did yesterday. Wish them luck!
It looks to me like Congress got suckered.
Premature investigation or not, the Democrats would seem to have committed themselves at this point. They will need to follow through now whether or not the whistle blower was tootling on a dog whistle.
We can expect hours of fun for the whole family. Whether the voters perceive the coming reality TV as justice in action or malicious prosecution remains to be seen.
The hypocrisy. It burns.
Maybe you should stock up on aloe.
Nancy Pelosi circa 1998:
"Today the Republican majority is not judging the President with fairness but impeaching him with a vengeance......In the investigation of the President, fundimental principles which Americans hold dear - fairness, privacy, checks and balances - have been seriously violated and why? We are here today because the Republicans in the House are paralyzed with hatred for President Clinton....Until the Republicans free themselves of that hatred, our country will suffer."
"The current president of the United States seems to have no real commitment to the truth, the rule of law, American principles and institutions—or, for that matter, free and fair elections. And he has lots of supporters and enablers. That’s the heart of our constitutional crisis." --Bill Kristol, prominent conservative
"The current president of the United States seems to have no real commitment to the truth, the rule of law, American principles and institutions—or, for that matter, free and fair elections. And he has lots of supporters and enablers. That’s the heart of our constitutional crisis." --Bill Kristol, prominent conservative
Captured in a nutshell.
We can talk about truth and honor all we like, but what do the polls say? Will there be collateral damage to Biden and Democrats in chancier districts, or are we looking at a post-Watergate style plunge for the Republicans? Has Trump’s big mouth doomed us to government issue health care and punitive taxation, or is the next Reagan waiting in the wings after an appropriate period of penance?
We can talk about truth and honor all we like, but what do the polls say?
I think the polls will reflect whatever the media presents as truth in a complaint filled with 2nd and 3rd party allegations, so based upon what I'm seeing today its not looking good for Trump.
On the other hand, a discerning mind might wonder why the White House would assist the Democrats ongoing efforts by providing a transcript of the call and the declassification of the complaint and IG report which only serves to provide fresh blood to the feeding frenzy in the House. It feels to me like there must be a 'gotcha' waiting somewhere in the wings.
Personally, I enjoy an entertaining election season and this one is turning into a doozy.
iris lilies
9-26-19, 2:10pm
I think the polls will reflect whatever the media presents as truth in a complaint filled with 2nd and 3rd party allegations, so based upon what I'm seeing today its not looking good for Trump.
On the other hand, a discerning mind might wonder why the White House would assist the Democrats ongoing efforts by providing a transcript of the call and the declassification of the complaint and IG report which only serves to provide fresh blood to the feeding frenzy in the House. It feels to me like there must be a 'gotcha' waiting somewhere in the wings.
Personally, I enjoy an entertaining election season and this one is turning into a doozy.
I wish I had confidence that the Trump White House was strategic in any of their actions.
I never watched The Sopranos, so I expect this is as close as I'll get.
I can't wait for the perp walk.
Just read the whistle-blower complaint. The writer is purported to be a CIA analyst. I hope that's all we find out about him or her. If half of what is written is true, it's time for a new President.
Unfortunately, shortly after the president threatened the whistleblower with assassination the ny times provided enough details about them that the whistleblower will likely be identified shortly.
Especially now that Dear Leader is making veiled threats about assassinating the "leakers."
While speaking to an audience of staff from the United States’ Mission to the United Nations, Trump complained that “I want to know who’s the person who gave the whistle-blower the information because that’s close to a spy. You know what we used to do in the old days when we were smart with spies and treason, right? We used to handle it a little differently than we do now.”
Another implied directive to his cultists, undoubtedly.
To be fair, saying stupid stuff is sort of his thing.
Unfortunately, shortly after the president threatened the whistleblower with assassination the ny times provided enough details about them that the whistleblower will likely be identified shortly.
Oh the whistleblower will definitely be identified eventually. Various House Committee's are desperate to get him/her under oath in order to get names of sources and once they find out they'll do a Christine Blasey Ford on them because, well, that's what they do.
I never watched The Sopranos, so I expect this is as close as I'll get.
I can't wait for the perp walk.
If life imitates the Sopranos there will be no perp walk in the last episode. It was more of a business as usual life goes on sometimes the bad guys win thing.
To be fair, saying stupid stuff is sort of his thing.
To be fair, threatening anyone who dares cross him is sort of his thing.
Fixed it for you.
To be fair, threatening anyone who dares cross him is sort of his thing.
Fixed it for you.Oh he's all talk, it's not like he's a Clinton. :cool:
Oh he's all talk, it's not like he's a Clinton. :cool:
True. She’s a badass. I’ve read that she’s killed something like 600 people. Most with her bare hands.
He doesn't do his own dirty business; he just delivers vague ultimata and his henchmen scurry to do the deed. Like Giuliani and Barr and Cesar Sayoc.
ApatheticNoMore
9-26-19, 5:49pm
True. She’s a badass. I’ve read that she’s killed something like 600 people. Most with her bare hands.
sounds like a low estimate for the war in Libya really
frugal-one
9-26-19, 7:25pm
To be fair, saying stupid stuff is sort of his thing.
How do you justify that?
How do you justify that?
He's a renegade and stopped listening to me back in the late 70's. I suspect it was because Ivana didn't like me.
frugal-one
9-26-19, 8:12pm
He's a renegade and stopped listening to me back in the late 70's. I suspect it was because Ivana didn't like me.
Seriously? How can you justify that?
Seriously? How can you justify that?
I've always suspected it was jealousy, but I'm not sure.
I've always suspected it was jealousy, but I'm not sure.
It was probably that she didn't need your money anymore once she started calculating the future divorce settlement. You probably dodged a bullet...
frugal-one
9-26-19, 9:35pm
I've always suspected it was jealousy, but I'm not sure.
Obviously, you are a supporter. trump could kill someone and you would still stand by him.
After all of today's bombshells I think my most curious question at this point is this. How many more phone calls did trump and his crew of criminals hide on the super duper top secret server? And what will we learn from them? Apparently there was a chat between Trump and Putin about Ukraine in May. Considering what we now know about the situation in Ukraine it seems reasonable that the house should demand those transcripts as well.
Obviously, you are a supporter. trump could kill someone and you would still stand by him.
Obviously you're a reformed Marxist, are you also a conspiracy theorist? Did you just wink at jp1? Really, are you a conspiracy theorist? What was that wink all about? Were you in my yard today? How do you know where I live? How do you know so much about me you Marxist conspiracy theorist?
After all of today's bombshells I think my most curious question at this point is this. How many more phone calls did trump and his crew of criminals hide on the super duper top secret server?
I heard speculation today that possibly all phone calls go on the secure server after that spate of phone conversation leaks this past year. That seems likely to me since that's what I would have done.
I heard speculation today that possibly all phone calls go on the secure server after that spate of phone conversation leaks this past year.
He had that much to hide? No other president in recent history did. Hmmmm. Now I'm more curious than ever. And I suspect I won't be disappointed if your heard speculation is accurate.
He had that much to hide? No other president in recent history did.How do you know where other presidents stored their conversations? Being an old security guy I can tell you that shouldn't be public info.
How do you know where other presidents stored their conversations? Being an old security guy I can tell you that shouldn't be public info.
No one in washington can keep a secret. If any of our recent presidents had been trying this scam it would have become public knowledge.
I've gotta say, your sunny optimism regarding trump's intentions and actions is remarkable. Misplaced, but remarkable nonetheless.
I just read on facebook that the whistleblower is a fictitious non-person. If this is the best defense trump's supporters can come up with at this point then the obese woman backstage is done warming up.
No one in washington can keep a secret. If any of our recent presidents had been trying this scam it would have become public knowledge.
I've gotta say, your sunny optimism regarding trump's intentions and actions is remarkable. Misplaced, but remarkable nonetheless.Sunny optimism? I suppose in some circles lack of all consuming hate might be considered as such, but it reminds of how blessed I am not to live there. Thanks!
At the end of the day even archie bunker was a sad pathetic bitter loser supporter of nixon to the end. It's interesting how many republican senators are now shutting their traps regarding what's been revealed. A day or two ago they were all "THERE's NOTHING HERE!!!" Now most of them are all "..."
flowerseverywhere
9-27-19, 6:31am
LOL, I'm one of those law and order Republicans that jp1 likes to think no longer exists and you confuse as your ideological enemy (or maybe that's why, I'm not sure). We law and order types insist on factual evidence rather than wishful thinking before sending people off to jail.
i read this comment several days ago and have been thinking about it. What is law and order about the current administration that causes so many Republicans to stand behind it? I remember years of Republican leaders touting morality and being fiscally conservative. I’m not sure what happened that this is not the current mantra. I just find this so puzzling.
I did not like some of the things Bill Clinton did, or either Bush or Obama. Too many wars and troops on foreign soil, too much money spent and so on. I have voted Republican and Democrat depending on the big picture. But I just fail to see the big picture here. If you could summarize the overall goals of the current administration (a seemingly moving target), what would they be?
Current Republican goals. Tax cuts for rich people. Radical judges on the courts. Being mean to brown people. Undo as many protections for people and the environment as you can. Hang on to power by any means necessary. Own the libs.
Current Republican goals. Tax cuts for rich people. Radical judges on the courts. Being mean to brown people. Undo as many protections for people and the environment as you can. Hang on to power by any means necessary. Own the libs.
Don’t forget guns. You can’t hunt orphans without guns.
Current Republican goals. Tax cuts for rich people. Radical judges on the courts. Being mean to brown people. Undo as many protections for people and the environment as you can. Hang on to power by any means necessary. Own the libs.
Bears repeating.
I understand someone has publicly offered a reward for outing the whistle blower. I'm surprised anyone has the courage to do the right thing anymore.
I understand someone has publicly offered a reward for outing the whistle blower. I'm surprised anyone has the courage to do the right thing anymore.
The New York Times should submit a claim, based on what I read this morning.
What must Mike Pence be thinking right now?
frugal-one
9-27-19, 12:27pm
Obviously you're a reformed Marxist, are you also a conspiracy theorist? Did you just wink at jp1? Really, are you a conspiracy theorist? What was that wink all about? Were you in my yard today? How do you know where I live? How do you know so much about me you Marxist conspiracy theorist?
You obviously are delusional and cannot defend yourself. A supporter... no matter what! As trump said earlier... "people will continue to support me even if I kill someone" ... you are one of those people.
I heard Kasich (R-Ohio) today speak about all that is going on. He is the one Republican I would have voted for in the last election. He is rational and speaks common sense. At this point in time, I would vote for Mayor Pete B. He too, speaks rationally.
You obviously are delusional and cannot defend yourself. A supporter... no matter what! As trump said earlier... "people will continue to support me even if I kill someone" ... you are one of those people.
I'm not sure what I'm supposed to defend myself from. I do know your line of accusatory questioning confused me, reminding me of a recent line of questioning in Congress. I should have set up my response better for those with a more limited frame of reference. My bad!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD7_Ho_2Zr0
frugal-one
9-27-19, 12:47pm
:confused:
I understand someone has publicly offered a reward for outing the whistle blower. I'm surprised anyone has the courage to do the right thing anymore.
Not surprising since trump's spouting they should be handled as they would in the past... mafia style:confused:
He keeps blathering on about treason and its penalties like he's not the one committing it. Clumsy misdirection.
He keeps blathering on about treason and its penalties like he's not the one committing it. Clumsy misdirection.I've always believed shutting up was a skill he regretfully never mastered. But all that's sideline noise, if this entire impeachment process is based upon the Ukraine call, what happens when the quid pro quo thing dissolves?
I've always believed shutting up was a skill he regretfully never mastered. But all that's sideline noise, if this entire impeachment process is based upon the Ukraine call, what happens when the quid pro quo thing dissolves?
Didn't Nixon go down in flames for the coverup, not the crimes?
I hope if they’re going to somehow drive Trump out of office they do it soon enough so that the party can run Nikki Haley or Marco Rubio against whatever statist savior the other people decide on.
I've always believed shutting up was a skill he regretfully never mastered. But all that's sideline noise, if this entire impeachment process is based upon the Ukraine call, what happens when the quid pro quo thing dissolves?
The bench is deep. Deep.
They could start with the ten points of the Mueller Report.
I hope if they’re going to somehow drive Trump out of office they do it soon enough so that the party can run Nikki Haley or Marco Rubio against whatever statist savior the other people decide on.
If trump has to leave office before January 2025 for any reason other than death I guarantee that he will completely torch the republican party on his way out the door. There's no way his supporters are gonna get behind Haley or Rubio or anyone else if trump is removed or resigns.
If trump has to leave office before January 2025 for any reason other than death I guarantee that he will completely torch the republican party on his way out the door.
I think he torched it when he entered the building.
I hope if they’re going to somehow drive Trump out of office they do it soon enough so that the party can run Nikki Haley or Marco Rubio against whatever statist savior the other people decide on.
MSNBC reported this morning that The House would attempt to have the impeachment articles ready for a vote by Thanksgiving, after taking into account 4 weeks of recess during October and November. That's a pretty ambitious schedule so I'd guess the Democrats hope to have the House and Senate actions over by the first of the year to give as much time as possible for the public to forget. I'm sure both Pelosi and Schumer recall Bill Clinton's rise in the polls after impeachment so it's in their interest to do this thing quickly.
If trump has to leave office before January 2025 for any reason other than death I guarantee that he will completely torch the republican party on his way out the door. There's no way his supporters are gonna get behind Haley or Rubio or anyone else if trump is removed or resigns.
Oh, I think you're simultaneously right and wrong. I think the Republican party is ripe for a Phoenix like disintegration and immediate rise from the ashes in order to correct it's 20 or so years of waywardness. It may be forced rather than the relatively slow natural progression the Democrats made to Democratic Socialism, but it's an exciting prospect for conscientious conservatives to regain control of the party.
Oh, I think you're simultaneously right and wrong. I think the Republican party is ripe for a Phoenix like disintegration and immediate rise from the ashes in order to correct it's 20 or so years of waywardness. It may be forced rather than the relatively slow natural progression the Democrats made to Democratic Socialism, but it's an exciting prospect for conscientious conservatives to regain control of the party.
They have a core of "never Trumpers" they can start with.
But I don't see the Democrats progressing toward socialism at all--at least up until now. I can't think of a recent Democrat who wasn't "Republican light." I want a return to FDR-type governance, personally. You know the "I welcome their hatred" kind of thing.
Oh, I think you're simultaneously right and wrong. I think the Republican party is ripe for a Phoenix like disintegration and immediate rise from the ashes in order to correct it's 20 or so years of waywardness. It may be forced rather than the relatively slow natural progression the Democrats made to Democratic Socialism, but it's an exciting prospect for conscientious conservatives to regain control of the party.
I would see that as a schism between the more traditional conservatives and the more populist Trump rump.
In many ways, I would see that as a good thing for the conservative cause. They could offer a more coherent and realistic program after the voters get a taste of Democratic Socialism in practice.
Current Republican goals. Tax cuts for rich people. Radical judges on the courts. Being mean to brown people. Undo as many protections for people and the environment as you can. Hang on to power by any means necessary. Own the libs.
The thing I find slightly interesting is that after 18 hours none of the republicans here have chimed in to refute my perception of what their failing party's goals are. I guess I nailed it?
The thing I find slightly interesting is that after 18 hours none of the republicans here have chimed in to refute my perception of what their failing party's goals are. I guess I nailed it?
I think you posed them with a "have you stopped beating your wife?" structured question, so I can't imagine any of them would engage in a serious conversation from that point.
I think you posed them with a "have you stopped beating your wife?" structured question, so I can't imagine any of them would engage in a serious conversation from that point.
Fair enough. I can see why no one would want to engage if they viewed it from that perspective. But to be honest, i am seriously curious what the republican agenda is because i really don’t see that they have one.
Fair enough. I can see why no one would want to engage if they viewed it from that perspective. But to be honest, i am seriously curious what the republican agenda is because i really don’t see that they have one.
I think a lot of their agenda is to strengthen the economy by tax cuts, deregulation of the financial and fossil fuel industries, and improving the nation's positions on international trade. Not that I agree, but that seems obvious to me. Whether it is cause and effect or coincidence the economy on the whole seems to have done well, at least until recently.
As the intro for The Apprentice goes "money, money, money."
We have sadly become an oligarchy, and the citizenry has been intentionally marginalized. People's lives, and freedoms, and well-being are irrelevant.
"People are dying. Entire ecosystems are collapsing. We are in the beginning of a mass extinction, and all you can talk about is money and fairy tales of eternal economic growth. How dare you!" --Greta Thunberg
Without indulging in cartoonish straw men of each side’s motivations and positions, I think the essential difference between the two parties for the last century or so is over the the proper size of the public sphere in citizens’ lives. In general, and there are exceptions, Democrats would enlarge it and Republicans would limit it.
From the health care industry to wedding cakes, the argument is over which decisions should be made collectively and which should be made individually. When government should mobilize people and their property for some purpose or other, and when individuals should be left to their own devices. When decisions should be taken at a central level, and when decisions are best made at the state or local level. Whether enforcing justice should apply based on some larger categories or based on the actions of individuals.
Strip out the self-interest, fear, and immature outrage addiction found in good measure up and down the political spectrum, and I think that is the basic difference we see today.
flowerseverywhere
9-28-19, 8:07pm
So true LDAHL. However this leads to so many inconsistencies. For instance, many people want to ban abortion in any circumstance, are for the death penalty and want no controls at on on our god-given right to own any guns in any circumstances. People want their religious beliefs respected yet don’t want to respect others beliefs. Many get all upset about taxes, yet want 911 to show up when they call, want great schools and roads. They want the federal government out of their beliefs but want to intrude on others beliefs.
We are a complicated species, but I think the 24/7 media and internet has been awful. To much information too fast, much of it dubious or untrue.
And then there is the wayback machine. Lindsey Graham is upset about the impeachment inquiry but said something to the effect of “you don’t even have to be convicted of a crime if you are out of bounds in your role ” About Clinton in 1999. He also said the whistleblower was all heresay, but had no Problem when the hearsay by Linda Tripp was used to go after Clinton.
Talk and selective memory is cheap but integrity and honesty is priceless.
I think either side (which may be a misnomer in that there are multiple factions within each) could point out the hypocrisy of the other until doomsday. Which party was for the Iraq war, the filibuster, the traditional definition of marriage and slavery before they were against it? Do such points accomplish anything beyond some kind of emotional benefit.
iris lilies
9-29-19, 12:20pm
I think a lot of their agenda is to strengthen the economy by tax cuts, deregulation of the financial and fossil fuel industries, and improving the nation's positions on international trade. Not that I agree, but that seems obvious to me. Whether it is cause and effect or coincidence the economy on the whole seems to have done well, at least until recently.
of course! One can argue that this POV is short term gain and long term detriment to our country, but I wouldn't make that case necessarily.I simply dont know.
Last week DH was poking me about spending and said “I am going to make you pay for that shiny red car you bought” and
I reminded him “Donald J. Trump paid for that car, buddy!” I give The Donald all the credit in the world for providing me with a frivolous car, purchased with stock market gains.
I think either side (which may be a misnomer in that there are multiple factions within each) could point out the hypocrisy of the other until doomsday. Which party was for the Iraq war, the filibuster, the traditional definition of marriage and slavery before they were against it? Do such points accomplish anything beyond some kind of emotional benefit.
I think you and I have a different definition of hypocrisy. I personally don't include changing one's mind when new information becomes available in the definition of hypocrisy. Nor is it hypocrisy if one acknowledges their past opinion and can explain why they have changed it. I doubt Lindsay Graham has suddenly changed his mind on impeachment. I'm sure he'd still be against impeaching trump even if trump did the worst imaginable thing which we all know is lying under oath about a blow job.
I'm sure he'd still be against impeaching trump even if trump did the worst imaginable thing which we all know is lying under oath about a blow job.Is there a definitive list of when it's ok to lie under oath?
Is there a definitive list of when it's ok to lie under oath?
I'll check with Brett Kavanaugh and get back to you.
I'll check with Brett Kavanaugh and get back to you.
I understand the next Supreme Court candidate will be a child molester and everything he/she says that doesn't confirm that portrayal will be considered perjury. I feel for that as of yet unknown person.
I understand the next Supreme Court candidate will be a child molester and everything he/she says that doesn't confirm that portrayal will be considered perjury. I feel for that as of yet unknown person.
They're bound to be as third-rate as every other Trump appointee.
I understand the next Supreme Court candidate will be a child molester and everything he/she says that doesn't confirm that portrayal will be considered perjury. I feel for that as of yet unknown person.
Funny you'd feel that way. It didn't happen to the immediately previous supreme court candidate.
I see Trump is recirculating tweets about civil war if he is impeached. Somehow I find that about as reasonable as all those Third Reich analogies and conspiracy daydreams equally silly people have been making.
I look forward to the coming orgy of hearings, leaks and punditry beginning and ending as soon as possible. I hope it’s enough to get the voters to start punishing ridiculously overwrought rhetoric.
Accusing a member of Congress of "treason" was a bit much too, don't ya think?
Teacher Terry
9-30-19, 3:35pm
I am not looking forward to all the drama.
I am not looking forward to all the drama.
+1
I was reading where if they removed Trump, and if Pence somehow had gotten tied into the mess and he also left office, then it would be President Pelosi. That's a thought to entertain, although a slight fantasy.
I was reading where if they removed Trump, and if Pence somehow had gotten tied into the mess and he also left office, then it would be President Pelosi. That's a thought to entertain, although a slight fantasy.
I have no doubt some of the best minds in the muck production industry are even now seining through his high school years for usefully smelly nuggets.
I was reading where if they removed Trump, and if Pence somehow had gotten tied into the mess and he also left office, then it would be President Pelosi. That's a thought to entertain, although a slight fantasy.
Indeed. And probably one of the many reasons the republicans very much don't want to go through with this. If Pence is deep enough in this to warrant being taken out I imagine they would do like with nixon. Get Pence out first, get a new placeholder VP, and then take trump out.
Article #10 of Andrew Johnson's impeachment: Making three speeches with intent to "attempt to bring into disgrace, ridicule, hatred, contempt and reproach, the Congress of the United States". Trump has obviously done this multiple times against various members of congress, most recently accusing a member of treason.
Article #10 of Andrew Johnson's impeachment: Making three speeches with intent to "attempt to bring into disgrace, ridicule, hatred, contempt and reproach, the Congress of the United States". Trump has obviously done this multiple times against various members of congress, most recently accusing a member of treason.
Not enough votes in the Senate to toss him out, though.
Werent enough back in the day either apparently.
Werent enough back in the day either apparently.
That’s who I was referring to.
flowerseverywhere
10-1-19, 6:50am
Indeed. And probably one of the many reasons the republicans very much don't want to go through with this. If Pence is deep enough in this to warrant being taken out I imagine they would do like with nixon. Get Pence out first, get a new placeholder VP, and then take trump out.
keeping my fingers crossed it’s Kasich.
gimmethesimplelife
10-3-19, 9:40am
Apparently The Thug Of Orange had a meltdown (and provided quite the photo op for the world to see once more what Americans are being expected to endure) with the President of Finland, a much better country in many ways.
This to me alone and in of itself should be sufficient grounds for removal from office. I am no fan of Mike Pence but at least Pence would behave much more appropriately in such situations and not embarrass an already humiliated nation further for no real gain nor reason. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-3-19, 9:44am
keeping my fingers crossed it’s Kasich.I'm no conservative as you all know.....but if we have to have a Rrpublican at the helm, I'd much rather have Kasich than Trump or Pence. Rob
frugal-one
10-3-19, 4:03pm
trump now IN PERSON for all the world to see asked China and Ukraine to investigate Biden and son. Looks like the whistleblower is no longer necessary. trump also threw Pence under the bus and Pence agreed with trump. Wouldn't it be funny for trump to have to say President Pelosi????
trump now IN PERSON for all the world to see asked China and Ukraine to investigate Biden and son. Looks like the whistleblower is no longer necessary. trump also threw Pence under the bus and Pence agreed with trump. Wouldn't it be funny for trump to have to say President Pelosi????
Underpants Gnome Plan:
1) Trump resigns before conviction
2) Pence becomes President
3) Pence appoints Trump as VP
4) Pence resigns
5) Trump becomes President
6) Profit
frugal-one
10-3-19, 5:04pm
Underpants Gnome Plan ... whatever that means? Even if goes as you say... trump is done for 2020.
Underpants Gnome Plan ... whatever that means?
I had to look it up, but enjoyed reading about it. It's from South Park, the cartoon.
iris lilies
10-4-19, 10:11am
Underpants Gnome Plan:
1) Trump resigns before conviction
2) Pence becomes President
3) Pence appoints Trump as VP
4) Pence resigns
5) Trump becomes President
6) Profit
That would be some crazy chit there man.
Teacher Terry
10-4-19, 11:50am
His meltdown was funny to watch.
His meltdown was funny to watch. +1
He's losing his mind as he cannot control this country after all. News clip I saw this morning, he couldn't remember Ukraine in his rant about China needing to investigate Biden.
ApatheticNoMore
10-4-19, 12:05pm
He's losing his mind as he cannot control this country after all. News clip I saw this morning, he couldn't remember Ukraine in his rant about China needing to investigate Biden.
yes I heard that, but Biden literally seems to think it's a reasonable thing to say that "noone's copays will be more than $1000".. stumbling over the word Ukraine (uh the entire of the scandal) starts to look "with it" compared to talking about $1000 copays ...my heavens ... >8) Yea I really can't wait for that healthcare plan - not.
Anyone but those two (Trump and Biden), would be better and probably mentally all there as well. Problem is we really genuinely need a heck of a lot more than that but ..
Now that Volker brought the quid pro quo receipts and trump solicited election aid from a foreign adversary on national tv yesterday is it finally time to impeach and remove or do we still have to wait for him to lie about a blow job?
gimmethesimplelife
10-5-19, 11:29am
Ay carumba, impeachment? Surprise, surprise, folks. I'm against a Trump impeachment and on this one I have zilch or close to it support in my infamous zip code. Whatever. I've always had the strength to stand alone provided I believe in said stand.
I'm not morphing into a Trump supporter. Nope, no can do. I do however question the impact of an impeachment in a primarily service economy with such income equality as we face in America. Many of those screaming for impeachment in the 85006 could well find themselves out of work. I would personally be down with his finishing out his term only.to suffer the humiliation of an embarrassing election loss. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-5-19, 11:31am
Now that Volker brought the quid pro quo receipts and trump solicited election aid from a foreign adversary on national tv yesterday is it finally time to impeach and remove or do we still have to wait for him to lie about a blow job?I don't disagree with your take per se, jp1. Matter of fact I mostly agree with it. I just am against impeachment as I believe the economy isn't fundamentally healthy enough to withstand it without millions being thrown out of work. Rob
Why, exactly, do you think removing a corrupt president from office will be bad for the economy.
gimmethesimplelife
10-5-19, 12:08pm
Why, exactly, do you think removing a corrupt president from office will be bad for the economy.Fair question, jp1. Right now hiring is slowing down, the stock market is showing volatility (wide swings in short amounts of time), the trade war with China continues unabated, and large US corporations have quietly revved up layoffs. I'm no Trump supporter....that has not changed one iota. I just worry that a Trump impeachment may be a big enough domino to bring the house of cards down. That's all....no GOP support meant in this but only concern for the lowly paid service workers who make up the bulk of the current US economy. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-5-19, 12:30pm
His meltdown was funny to watch.Funny yes but scary too in an utterly flabbergasting way. I expected Rod Serling to materialize and begin his 60's Twilght Zone sthick/narration. As in You Have Now Entered The Twilight Zone....next stop witnessing the meltdown of an unstable man bizarrely elected as President of the largest economy on Earth. Or something along those lines. What's even scarier is that Trump supporters continue to ignore/excuse this behavior away. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-5-19, 12:34pm
+1
He's losing his mind as he cannot control this country after all. News clip I saw this morning, he couldn't remember Ukraine in his rant about China needing to investigate Biden.SO told me about this this morning and was like.....you can't be serious that you don't want this pinched pendejo (not exactly flattering if you translate this) impeached. He is becoming obviously more unhinged by the day. Let's hope it doesn't lead to irrevocable tragedy before his term is up. I can't even fathom the concept of his being reelected. Rob
ApatheticNoMore
10-5-19, 12:35pm
We can't cower in terror all day long about when the economy might deliver a recession. It's ridiculous.
It will eventually by the business cycle anyway. It's inevitable, we aren't going to outrun this one indefinitely. And it doesn't just matter what the U.S. does because while those things have some influence recessions are truly global in nature. And if we get a recession and that recession gets rid of Trump ... I want him gone.
But a recession is inevitable at some point anyway. If people have to take into account, I would much rather people just vote for someone who would make a decent president in a recession that we will inevitably get anyway.
And if we keep having to vote based on what the stock market wants, ugh no, nothing good is ever going to happen that way. We will never get good policies that way.
I also see about ZERO PROBABILITY, that the impeachment of a President will still can't remove from office that way will lead to a recession. I'm just tired of being told to vote for whatever the stock market wants today.
gimmethesimplelife
10-6-19, 8:53am
I just went to YouTube and keyed in Trump meltdown with Finnish President. The first video that popped up.was from an Australian news program, featuring two female reporters. This is not a mgtow/men's right post.....I'm just stating the two reporters handling this story were female. And they did not like Trump - they seemed to glow a bit at the prospect of a Trump impeachment. Understandable as Trump had not spared Australia from his sthick/regularly scheduled insanity.
I post this as this Australian news outlet gave me hope that much of the world beyond the US is seeing Trump as I do, and not only Austria. I'm still against an impeachment as I don't want the 85006 or any of you or America at large to suffer from another Great Recession or worse. But I do take hope that the prospect of a Trump impeachment is spreading some joy beyond US borders. Rob
Fair question, jp1. Right now hiring is slowing down, the stock market is showing volatility (wide swings in short amounts of time), the trade war with China continues unabated, and large US corporations have quietly revved up layoffs.
We are experiencing the lowest unemployment rate in fifty years, and the highest wage growth is occurring in the bottom quartile among your lowly paid service workers. If Mrs. Clinton were in office right now, you’d be singing “Happy Days are Here Again”.
That being said, I don’t understand the superstition that President’s somehow control and are accountable for the state of the economy. It’s too large and complex to be centrally managed, no matter how many “plans” are stuffed into some political hack’s portfolio.
We are experiencing the lowest unemployment rate in fifty years, and the highest wage growth is occurring in the bottom quartile among your lowly paid service workers. If Mrs. Clinton were in office right now, you’d be singing “Happy Days are Here Again”.
That being said, I don’t understand the superstition that President’s somehow control and are accountable for the state of the economy. It’s too large and complex to be centrally managed, no matter how many “plans” are stuffed into some political hack’s portfolio.
To complete the picture, the stock market has basically been flat for the last two years, mining and manufacturing jobs have barely grown, family sized farms are not able to compete and stay profitable, interest rates are so low that those of us wishing to invest conservatively can barely keep up with inflation if at all, any growth due to deregulation of the oil and gas industry has come about partially at the cost of increased greenhouse gasses, and the gap between the higher paying and lower paying jobs continues to grow. And a growing number of financial analysts think were are on the verge of a recession, which may or may not come to be. It's not all rosy but certainly not all bad either.
No doubt the president cannot totally control the economy, but the two are not independent, either.
I’m not saying it’s all rosy. It’s never all rosy. There surely will be another recession You don’t need experts to predict that. The trick is knowing when.
But I think the voters and the people who pander to them and try to frighten them suffer from a certain illusion of control. I certainly think that in the long run government can have some impact, often unintended and often for the worse.
One of my biggest grievances with Trump is that his fall may open the door to a new generation of economic witch doctors who think they can bend markets to their will or even eliminate the need for markets altogether by allocatingresources by fiat of a credentialed elite. I think we can expect to hear a lot more about modern monetary theory, and how deficits can be rendered irrelevant by skillfully debasing the currency.
I think it would be fair enough to say that the economy is doing ok, but maybe not as great as the unemployment figures might indicate, and it is showing signs of slowing. Some of the sectors Trump has promised to help really haven't done much.
MMT is crazy enough of a proposition that any fear of it becoming reality is distant if not remote, in my humble opinion. I think some its basis comes from the fact that there doesn't seem to but a ceiling to how much debt we can incur and that fiat currency is really nothing new. The fact that debt has increased so much under T is risky enough in itself.
SO told me about this this morning and was like.....you can't be serious that you don't want this pinched pendejo (not exactly flattering if you translate this) impeached. He is becoming obviously more unhinged by the day. Let's hope it doesn't lead to irrevocable tragedy before his term is up. I can't even fathom the concept of his being reelected. Rob
I think you meant "pinche pendejo." At least that's how I read it. :D And I couldn't agree more.
gimmethesimplelife
10-6-19, 4:59pm
I think you meant "pinche pendejo." At least that's how I read it. :D And I couldn't agree more.LOL As usual, Jane, you are dead on. I did mean pinche pendejo....damn autocorrect on this phone! And these two words are indeed an accurate description of Donald J Trump. Rob
The first video that popped up.was from an Australian news program, featuring two female reporters.
This is not a mgtow/men's right post.....
I'm just stating the two reporters handling this story were female.
Where to even begun unpacking that...?
I am having trouble understanding the ethics of someone who wouldn’t hold an elected official responsible for their high crimes and misdemeanors because of concern over the stock market and a possible recession.
If Trump shot someone on the street in front of the White House, heck, looks like some people would be lining up to comfort him... You know, for the economy’s sake....
gimmethesimplelife
10-6-19, 8:57pm
Where to even begun unpacking that...?? Otra vez, no comprende Senor? Care to illuminate your meaning? Rob
iris lilies
10-6-19, 9:03pm
? Otra vez, no comprende Senor? Care to illuminate your meaning? Rob
Why was the gender of the reporters of prime importance in your mind in your reporting here Rob?
I also question that whatever influence a president does have whether this one provides a net positive. He’s generally erratic and has taken a seemingly failed approach of economic isolationism. The manufacturing jobs haven’t returned and farmers are hurting. If anything the economy seems to be as good as it is despite him not because of him.
iris lilies
10-6-19, 9:07pm
I also question that whatever influence a president does have whether this one provides a net positive. He’s generally erratic and has taken a seemingly failed approach of economic isolationism. The manufacturing jobs haven’t returned and farmers are hurting. If anything the economy seems to be as good as it is despite him not because of him.
Business likes the regulatory environment emanating from the White House.
gimmethesimplelife
10-6-19, 9:14pm
I am having trouble understanding the ethics of someone who wouldn’t hold an elected official responsible for their high crimes and misdemeanors because of concern over the stock market and a possible recession.
If Trump shot someone on the street in front of the White House, heck, looks like some people would be lining up to comfort him... You know, for the economy’s sake....Let me be clear, then, bad. It's not so much the stock market I'm worried about....I'm worried about automation creep in the next recession destroying lives in the 85006 and every other American zip code in America save the most wealthy. I'm worried over lack of access to affordable health care for those not situated in a border state such as myself.....if things get really bad, Medicaid will likely be cut. I'm worried about hunger in the 85006 and once again, across America save for the most wealthy. You can take Rob out of poverty and perch me at the edge of middle class.....but you will never take the poverty out of me. I know America too well for that ever to happen.and
I'm not worried about trite things here, bad, but rather basic survival. You live in Washington, quite an expensive state, right? Look at the homeless problem in metro Seattle and factor in automation creep and maybe, just maybe you'll begin to grasp my meaning?
So - where does Trump fit into all of this? My take is that his impeachment may be a big enough domino to bring the house of cards that is the American economy crashing down. Though I despise Donald J.Trump, I care about the 85006 - and beyond my.neighborhood, too. I don't wish hunger/lack of access to health care/homelessness on anyone. Should the house of cards that is the American economy come crashing down, there will be much more of this unfortunate trifecta spreading throughout society.
My take is actually quite kind, decent, and humane. I'd rather have Trump finish out his term than have more Americans hungry and homeless and without health care. That's all. This goes way above surface morals and ethics and strikes at the heart of the very truth about America. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-6-19, 9:17pm
Why was the gender of the reporters of prime importance in your mind in your reporting here Rob?It wasn't, not one iota. I only mentioned this as I have in the past made red pill/men's rights posts and I wanted to be clear that this was not such a post. That was the extent of my agenda here, IL. Quite harmless. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-6-19, 9:19pm
Business likes the regulatory environment emanating from the White House.Don't drop dead of shock here IL, but I agree with you here. American business does prefer a climate of minimal regulation. True that. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-6-19, 9:22pm
Let me be clear, then, bad. It's not so much the stock market I'm worried about....I'm worried about automation creep in the next recession destroying lives in the 85006 and every other American zip code in America save the most wealthy. I'm worried over lack of access to affordable health care for those not situated in a border state such as myself.....if things get really bad, Medicaid will likely be cut. I'm worried about hunger in the 85006 and once again, across America save for the most wealthy. You can take Rob out of poverty and perch me at the edge of middle class.....but you will never take the poverty out of me. I know America too well for that ever to happen.and
I'm not worried about trite things here, bad, but rather basic survival. You live in Washington, quite an expensive state, right? Look at the homeless problem in metro Seattle and factor in automation creep and maybe, just maybe you'll begin to grasp my meaning?
So - where does Trump fit into all of this? My take is that his impeachment may be a big enough domino to bring the house of cards that is the American economy crashing down. Though I despise Donald J.Trump, I care about the 85006 - and beyond my.neighborhood, too. I don't wish hunger/lack of access to health care/homelessness on anyone. Should the house of cards that is the American economy come crashing down, there will be much more of this unfortunate trifecta spreading throughout society.
My take is actually quite kind, decent, and humane. I'd rather have Trump finish out his term than have more Americans hungry and homeless and without health care. That's all. This goes way above surface morals and ethics and strikes at the heart of the very truth about America. RobGrrrrr.....autocorrect on this phone really rankles me to the 85008 (a neighborhood expression of annoyance). It turned my typing bae into bad.....no hidden meaning there for bae....just annoying autocorrect on.my phone. Is there a way to turn it off? Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-6-19, 9:28pm
Amazing.Que que? Rob
I am having trouble understanding the ethics of someone who wouldn’t hold an elected official responsible for their high crimes and misdemeanors because of concern over the stock market and a possible recession.
If Trump shot someone on the street in front of the White House, heck, looks like some people would be lining up to comfort him... You know, for the economy’s sake....
People's motives don't always make sense to me. I suspect financial well being rates higher than "high crimes" that are not purely black and white for a lot. Trump knows this and has plied on peoples paranoia by predicting civil war and also some sort of financial crash if he's impeached. There are also people who think Trump is a corrupt idiot and would be in favor of impeachment regardless of any due process of law. I have friends who have said they would be willing to take a financial hit if it would mean Trump leaving office. They can probably afford some losses.
gimmethesimplelife
10-6-19, 9:44pm
People's motives don't always make sense to me. I suspect financial well being rates higher than "high crimes" that are not purely black and white for a lot. Trump knows this and has plied on peoples paranoia by predicting civil war and also some sort of financial crash if he's impeached. There are also people who think Trump is a corrupt idiot and would be in favor of impeachment regardless of any due process of law. I have friends who have said they would be willing to take a financial hit if it would mean Trump leaving office. They can probably afford some losses.Rogar....wow!!!!! You have hit on what I consider real truth here. Some people can take the financial hit should a Trump impeachment bring the house of cards that is today's American economy down. And some can't. I live in an area where most can't (with some exceptions such as new people who have moved into the neighborhood and overpaid for houses).
My comfort zone and basic understanding if my life will likely always be from a perspective of someone who can't take the financial hit.....though it IS true I am doing better these days than I have for years. Rob
Business likes the regulatory environment emanating from the White House.
Several automakers would probably disagree with that statement.
Teacher Terry
10-6-19, 9:58pm
I will be so glad when the election is over and really hope we have a new president.
gimmethesimplelife
10-6-19, 10:05pm
I will be so glad when the election is over and really hope we have a new president.TT, you and me both. On this I concur 100%. Now that I know more about the future of AI/automation, in.my.perfect world Trump would finish his term and suffer a humiliating election loss to Elizabeth Warren. Rob
I also question that whatever influence a president does have whether this one provides a net positive. He’s generally erratic and has taken a seemingly failed approach of economic isolationism. The manufacturing jobs haven’t returned and farmers are hurting. If anything the economy seems to be as good as it is despite him not because of him.
And now, he's apparently leaving the Kurds in Syria--among our most steadfast allies--to fend for themselves. Every day, a new outrage. But Putin will be happy, and that's all that matters.
iris lilies
10-7-19, 9:49am
.....though it IS true I am doing better these days than I have for years. Rob
yay for the Trump economy!
gimmethesimplelife
10-7-19, 9:56am
I just went to youtube and watched The Orange Thug Of Complete And Utter Instability during his meltdown at the press conference with Sauli N of Finland. I feel guilt and a little shame for doing a 180 on my.impeachment stance. It is true that I do a somewhat matching outfit with SO to wear for such that is above my station in life. And I truly despise the man.
That all said.....if his impeachment causes a recession. US business will cold bloodedly ruin untold numbers of US lives by implementing all kinds of AI and automation. I have to vote for human life and ironically enough, this means letting Trump finish his term to avoid economic fallout/drastically increased hunger and rapidly expanding shantytowns/tent cities. American business will do this to America without blinking as money is all that matters.
I will never forgive America for forcing me into this stance. This one truly goes too far. Rob
I am having trouble understanding the ethics of someone who wouldn’t hold an elected official responsible for their high crimes and misdemeanors because of concern over the stock market and a possible recession.
If Trump shot someone on the street in front of the White House, heck, looks like some people would be lining up to comfort him... You know, for the economy’s sake....
I don't understand that either. Mr. Pinche Pendejo will probably end up driving the economy into the ground anyway--with his ill-advised tariffs and targeted tax cuts--but is it too much to ask that the putative leader of the country follow the Constitution, honor the rule of law, and not openly pander to our enemies?
ApatheticNoMore
10-7-19, 10:48am
I would gladly lose my job to get rid of Trump I've said it, I've said it when the contract was ending and I didn't know where my next paycheck was coming from. I have no power to make that happen of course, wishes aren't horses and I can't trade Trump for a bad economy even if I think "whatever as long as he's gone". Could I survive it? Yes. I'd likely not be homeless or hungry if that's what is meant, the rent would get paid, the food would get bought, I may or may not be able to afford a garbage ACA plan, probably but with what they cost who knows, more expensive all the time, so I don't count on it, but rent, food, and utilities, yea if I find work eventually. It takes an incredible PSYCHOLOGICAL toll to be long term unemployed but ...
So I won't be supporting Trump because of the economy. I'm doing ok. I'm glad, and I don't think everyone (not any every most upstanding employee) does ok just because the economy is "good". no way, no way, no way.
By the way the assumption that a recession would hasten automation seems to be completely whack. If anything a tight job market with somewhat higher wages (haven't increased that much but) would lead to more automation, a recession when workers can be had for the cheap for almost any job just because they are desperate, I don't think so.
I remember when the What’s-the-Matter-With-Kansas crowd used to scold the voters for not “voting their interests”. That attitude may in fact have had a significant impact on the rise of Trump when the people being scolded took offense.
While I doubt a second Trump administration would be all that beneficial or harmful to my best financial interests, I’m pretty convinced some of the plans his opposition have for me would definitely be harmful.
So what am I to do? Vote Libertarian again?
iris lilies
10-7-19, 12:13pm
I remember when the What’s-the-Matter-With-Kansas crowd used to scold the voters for not “voting their interests”. That attitude may in fact have had a significant impact on the rise of Trump when the people being scolded took offense.
While I doubt a second Trump administration would be all that beneficial or harmful to my best financial interests, I’m pretty convinced some of the plans his opposition have for me would definitely be harmful.
So what am I to do? Vote Libertarian again?
Yes.
gimmethesimplelife
10-7-19, 12:19pm
I don't understand that either. Mr. Pinche Pendejo will probably end up driving the economy into the ground anyway--with his ill-advised tariffs and targeted tax cuts--but is it too much to ask that the putative leader of the country follow the Constitution, honor the rule of law, and not openly pander to our enemies?Jane, yes, it does seem like too much to ask from Senor Pinche Pendejo. Rob
I think a lot of ethical Germans supported an unethical politician in the 1930s because they valued economic performance over morals.
Good luck with that approach, Rob.
gimmethesimplelife
10-7-19, 12:50pm
I think a lot of ethical Germans supported an unethical politician in the 1930s because they valued economic performance over morals.
Good luck with that approach, Rob.Color me flabbergasted, Bae. You raise a very good and valid point. I can't argue this point....you are right. I will revisit my stance, painful though doing so will be. Rob
Teacher Terry
10-7-19, 12:54pm
Good idea L and IL to keep throwing away your vote.
Good idea L and IL to keep throwing away your vote.
If the choice is between an unprincipled buffoon and the likely commissar-in-chief the Democrats seem ready to field, I would treat my vote the same way I would treat an expired dairy product.
iris lilies
10-7-19, 1:21pm
Good idea L and IL to keep throwing away your vote.
it isn’t throwing away my vote. My vote for a third party candidate demonstrates in the clearest way possible that major parties didn't offer a choice I could endorse.
My real problem comes when the third party candidates are flakes. Then, I risk throwing away my vote by not voting at all for the position at the top of the ticket. That is a possibility. I never missed an election but there are some ballot issues or positions I do not vote for.
ApatheticNoMore
10-7-19, 1:23pm
Good idea L and IL to keep throwing away your vote.
yes they should vote for Trump instead, because a vote for Trump is not a vote wasted, it's a noble vote cast for a guy who can actually win (and sadly might, he probably has pretty good odds). For a winner, in Trump's worldview where the world consists of winners and losers.
Of course noone seems to understand basic things like how electoral college votes are allocated either, and that in a deep red or blue state in the general our votes are mostly purely message sending. Now, I don't even mind if my message is "anyone but orange guy" (depending), maybe I'm going to try to make him lose the popular vote by an even bigger margin than before but ...
It's all moot if Russia hacks our voting machines again anyway.
"The Trump family is so far and away the most corrupt in American presidential history that you really can't think of who's in second place." --David Frum, Republican speechwriter
It's all moot if Russia hacks our voting machines again anyway.
"The Trump family is so far and away the most corrupt in American presidential history that you really can't think of who's in second place." --David Frum, Republican speechwriter
Which states did they manage to hack? How many votes were changed?
ApatheticNoMore
10-7-19, 3:23pm
Which states did they manage to hack? How many votes were changed?
not enough to change the outcome. Don't the states have a lot of leeway over this. And the state might be Republican, ok but the problem then is not the Russians.
What did the Obama administration do about it?
What did the Obama administration do about it?
https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/02/politics/fact-check-trump-claims-obama-did-nothing-russia/index.html
Which states did they manage to hack? How many votes were changed?
Illinois, Florida. They attempted to encroach on all fifty states.
https://www.rollcall.com/news/whitehouse/barrs-conclusion-no-obstruction-gets-new-scrutiny
I think the narrative of "Russia hacking our voting machines" is sufficient to serve Russia's interests in destabilizing our democracy. They don't actually have to hack anything, just disrupt and sow distrust.
Go Team!
Illinois, Florida. They attempted to encroach on all fifty states.
https://www.rollcall.com/news/whitehouse/barrs-conclusion-no-obstruction-gets-new-scrutiny
That’s certainly bad, but it provides no evidence that any votes were affected. Nor, as Mueller said, is it evidence of collusion
https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/02/politics/fact-check-trump-claims-obama-did-nothing-russia/index.html
Expelling a few more spies is always an excellent idea.
I think the narrative of "Russia hacking our voting machines" is sufficient to serve Russia's interests in destabilizing our democracy. They don't actually have to hack anything, just disrupt and sow distrust.
Go Team!
Don’t those fools realize we have plenty of volunteers for that already? Or at least the resources to hire washed out agents to compile bogus dossiers?
Wouldn’t their resources be better utilized coming up with exotic ways to murder dissidents and defectors?
That’s certainly bad, but it provides no evidence that any votes were affected. Nor, as Mueller said, is it evidence of collusion
All Putin has to do is sprinkle a little distrust, and watch us destroy ourselves. He doesn't actually *have* to collude or do much more than green-light the well-documented factories churning out increasingly-sophisticated and targeted Internet disinformation.
Reminds me of this Twilight Zone episode:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monsters_Are_Due_on_Maple_Street
Which, oddly, was written about a similar thing...
The closing narration is both timely for the era the episode released in, and still applies today:
"The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices...to be found only in the minds of men. For the record, prejudices can kill...and suspicion can destroy...and a thoughtless, frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all of its own – for the children and the children yet unborn. And the pity of it is that these things cannot be confined to the Twilight Zone."
Which states did they manage to hack? How many votes were changed? The electoral college did not represent the popular vote as noted here:
In the final count, Hillary Clinton’s (https://time.com/4607933/clinton-trump-faithless-electors-precedent/) lead in the popular vote of the 2016 presidential election was nearly three million votes.
According to the independent, non-partisan Cook Political Report (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/133Eb4qQmOxNvtesw2hdVns073R68EZx4SfCnP4IGQf8/htmlview?sle=true#gid=19), Clinton’s final tally came in at 65,844,610, compared to Donald Trump’s 62,979,636, with a difference of 2,864,974. The total number of votes for other candidates was 7,804,213.
The electoral college did not represent the popular vote as noted here:
The electoral college votes not matching the popular vote is not evidence of "hacking".
frugal-one
10-7-19, 4:27pm
Business likes the regulatory environment emanating from the White House.
You mean no regulatory oversight?
frugal-one
10-7-19, 4:32pm
I remember when the What’s-the-Matter-With-Kansas crowd used to scold the voters for not “voting their interests”. That attitude may in fact have had a significant impact on the rise of Trump when the people being scolded took offense.
While I doubt a second Trump administration would be all that beneficial or harmful to my best financial interests, I’m pretty convinced some of the plans his opposition have for me would definitely be harmful.
So what am I to do? Vote Libertarian again?
So, where did that get you?
frugal-one
10-7-19, 4:33pm
I think a lot of ethical Germans supported an unethical politician in the 1930s because they valued economic performance over morals.
Good luck with that approach, Rob.
As with current Republicans!
We'll probably never know how many votes were changed, because Republicans got their candidate elected, so would have no reason to investigate. They've been gerrymandering and suppressing votes and voters for years with this goal in mind. If Russia wanted to help out, it was A-OK with them.
The Mueller report suggested Congress would enact subpoenas and otherwise find the evidence necessary to hold this administration culpable of obstruction of justice. If the evidence they had had been presented to a fair-minded jury, it would certainly have convicted--and that's with all the lying and stonewalling that made up Trump regime "testimony." It's all there in print, if anyone had read it.
I wonder if, theoretically speaking, a sitting president would be immune from prosecution if he did shoot some one in front of the White House. At least until he was removed from office.
I might have thought earlier that any comparison between now and Nazi Germany would be something of a false analogy. However, I look at the Breitbart web site every few months and just happened to this morning. Some of the deep state articles are at least disturbing and they will get hundreds or thousands of comments. Most disturbing today was a transcript of a Stephen Miller interview on executive power. There are some scary people out there and some of them are in the drivers seat. I don't doubt that the hate fest of comments is fueled or seeded by Russians.
Stephen Miller makes my blood run cold.
In a work of fiction, he would be the reincarnation of Adolf Eichmann or Oskar Dirlewanger.
So, where did that get you?
Clean.
We'll probably never know how many votes were changed, because Republicans got their candidate elected, so would have no reason to investigate. They've been gerrymandering and suppressing votes and voters for years with this goal in mind. If Russia wanted to help out, it was A-OK with them.
The Mueller report suggested Congress would enact subpoenas and otherwise find the evidence necessary to hold this administration culpable of obstruction of justice. If the evidence they had had been presented to a fair-minded jury, it would certainly have convicted--and that's with all the lying and stonewalling that made up Trump regime "testimony." It's all there in print, if anyone had read it.
Accusations and innuendo are not evidence except in the minds of the already convinced.
All Putin has to do is sprinkle a little distrust, and watch us destroy ourselves. He doesn't actually *have* to collude or do much more than green-light the well-documented factories churning out increasingly-sophisticated and targeted Internet disinformation.
Reminds me of this Twilight Zone episode:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Monsters_Are_Due_on_Maple_Street
Which, oddly, was written about a similar thing...
The closing narration is both timely for the era the episode released in, and still applies today:
"The tools of conquest do not necessarily come with bombs and explosions and fallout. There are weapons that are simply thoughts, attitudes, prejudices...to be found only in the minds of men. For the record, prejudices can kill...and suspicion can destroy...and a thoughtless, frightened search for a scapegoat has a fallout all of its own – for the children and the children yet unborn. And the pity of it is that these things cannot be confined to the Twilight Zone."
Then it’s more on us than on him.
Then it’s more on us than on him.
Exactly so.
gimmethesimplelife
10-8-19, 1:11pm
Never let it be said that I don't at least consider the views of others here. Bae's last post in reply to one of mine was so powerful and so dead on that I had to revisit my stance if I were to live with myself. My conclusion is that America is so twisted these days that we are BOTH right......but also that other factors beyond a Trump impeachment could just as easily bring the house of cards of the US economy.crashing down.
I have changed my.mind. with misgivings I now support a Trump impeachment. It was bae's dead on post plus pleadings of.a few folks I know in the 85006 who have been hassled by Trump's US CBP, though they are in the US legally. Rob
Yes--that Twilight Zone quote was perfect.
iris lilies
10-8-19, 1:35pm
Never let it be said that I don't at least consider the views of others here. Bae's last post in reply to one of mine was so powerful and so dead on that I had to revisit my stance if I were to live with myself. My conclusion is that America is so twisted these days that we are BOTH right......but also that other factors beyond a Trump impeachment could just as easily bring the house of cards of the US economy.crashing down.
I have changed my.mind. with misgivings I now support a Trump impeachment. It was bae's dead on post plus pleadings of.a few folks I know in the 85006 who have been hassled by Trump's US CBP, though they are in the US legally. Rob
wow. That change of mind must merit a press release. I am sure CNN and MSNBC and etc are lining up in front of your door for an interview. /snark
Seriously Rob, do ya really think the fact that you “support” impeachment of the President news to anyone? You started a post with that topic 6 months ago.
gimmethesimplelife
10-8-19, 2:25pm
wow. That change of mind must merit a press release. I am sure CNN and MSNBC and etc are lining up in front of your door for an interview. /snark
Seriously Rob, do ya really think the fact that you “support” impeachment of the President news to anyone? You started a post with that topic 6 months ago.Ouch, IL....Ouch. FYI, my change of heart regarding my original support for a Trump impeachment? You may lay the blame for that at the doorstep of Conservatives. I still believe American business is waiting for the next economic meltdown with glee.....too many Americans will then be powerless to stop the replacement of jobs we hold today with AI and automation. This is what led to my change of heart and being the 85006 public exception.....I e. let the pinche pendejo finish his term.
Bae and several Guatemalans I know entirely legally present in the US but harrassed by US CBP regardless in Trump's America changed this. I still have misgivings due to my complete and utter distrust of US business, but bae's point was dead on and extremely real and powerful, as was the testimony/personal experience of these Guatemalans in Trump's America... ..I rejoin the 85006 in supporting impeachment....though with some misgivings as I do understand America. Rob
...too many Americans will then be powerless to stop the replacement of jobs we hold today with AI and automation.
This is how the world works. We used to have millions of peasants working in the fields, now machines do much of that work.
Jobs that AI and automation can replace are likely not the highest, best use of a human life. If robots can pull packages at the Amazon Prime warehouse and pack the boxes, and drones deliver the boxes, then all those people working terrible jobs can do jobs that are perhaps more meaningful.
We should celebrate those human minds and bodies being freed.
gimmethesimplelife
10-8-19, 3:45pm
Freed to what exactly? How do we know that life for the lower social classes won't resemble life as it is for the Untouchable Caste in India? You propose nothing to minimize the evil side of turbo charged capitalism. Rob
Freed to what exactly?
Write poetry. Sing songs. Think deep thoughts. Love their family. Have dinner with friends. Research on the frontiers of human knowledge. Document the past. Fight evil. Clean up the Earth.
You propose nothing to minimize the evil side of turbo charged capitalism. Rob
You are moving the goalposts here. I was unaware it was my job to "propose something to minimize the evil side of turbo charged capitalism". Is working in an Amazon shipping warehouse a relaxing and rewarding use of one's life, or is it in fact already the evil side of turbo charged capitalism? By pointing out that robots could shortly do that job, thus freeing people for more rewarding pursuits, why do you assign me the burden of Fixing All The Things?
How many buggywhip makers are out there today? What happened to them?
If you want my proposals though, look to Derrick Jensen.
iris lilies
10-8-19, 4:11pm
To Rob:
If the monolithic American Business community of your nightmares wishes to automate, they will automate. They hardly need an environment where money to buy automation equipment is scarce and expensive, their profits are low because people are not buying their wares, and their stockholders/backers/supporters are running scared.
Any logic is stunningly absent from your argument.
Any logic is stunningly absent from your argument.
Perhaps you meant to respond to Rob.
Write poetry. Sing songs. Think deep thoughts. Love their family. Have dinner with friends. Research on the frontiers of human knowledge. Document the past. Fight evil. Clean up the Earth.
You are moving the goalposts here. I was unaware it was my job to "propose something to minimize the evil side of turbo charged capitalism". Is working in an Amazon shipping warehouse a relaxing and rewarding use of one's life, or is it in fact already the evil side of turbo charged capitalism? By pointing out that robots could shortly do that job, thus freeing people for more rewarding pursuits, why do you assign me the burden of Fixing All The Things?
How many buggywhip makers are out there today? What happened to them?
If you want my proposals though, look to Derrick Jensen.
I've read Derrick Jensen (Endgame Parts I and II) and I love him--but can you recap for me his vision of the future, and how it aligns with yours? I'm just curious. I agree with getting rid of mind-numbing, soul-sucking jobs by any means necessary, especially those prone to exploitation. My idea of a great next step would be to approach the Nearings' 4 hours of "bread labor," 4 hours of community work and 4 hours of leisure.
gimmethesimplelife
10-8-19, 6:04pm
Write poetry. Sing songs. Think deep thoughts. Love their family. Have dinner with friends. Research on the frontiers of human knowledge. Document the past. Fight evil. Clean up the Earth.
You are moving the goalposts here. I was unaware it was my job to "propose something to minimize the evil side of turbo charged capitalism". Is working in an Amazon shipping warehouse a relaxing and rewarding use of one's life, or is it in fact already the evil side of turbo charged capitalism? By pointing out that robots could shortly do that job, thus freeing people for more rewarding pursuits, why do you assign me the burden of Fixing All The Things?
How many buggywhip makers are out there today? What happened to them?
If you want my proposals though, look to Derrick Jensen.I love your first paragraph and would personally welcome such....with one caveat. On what money? Where is the money for food and lodging coming from? You could talk of universal basic income but in some US cities that will not be enough to buy you a group rental situation and food, let alone a bus pass. I can only see universal income working if Americans exported themselves to lower costs - and how realistic is this? Witness the blockback my posts regarding such have received in the past.
I'm not saying you propose bad ideas, and I"m actually down with them. I just question how realistic they are is all. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-8-19, 6:06pm
Came back to add that I will look into this Derrick Jensen. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-8-19, 6:11pm
If the monolithic American Business community of your nightmares wishes to automate, they will automate. They hardly need an environment where money to buy automation equipment is scarce and expensive, their profits are low because people are not buying their wares, and their stockholders/backers/supporters are running scared.
Any logic is stunningly absent from your argument.And here's a heaving helping of logic for you, IL. Less pushback/blowback from the general public if AI and automation are held off until th he next nasty downtown....an economically.fearful population is more likely to accept job losses due to technology without revolt. Why do you think Kroger's and Wal Mart still have cashiers, though the technology exists already to replace them? Next recession many such jobs will be permanently gone with the wind, minus any Civil War being necessary. Rob
I don’t think there’s much danger of a Luddite rebellion in any case, but I suspect you will see more technology investment when times are good. There’s more capital available, competing labor is more expensive and a more optimistic view of the potential return on investment prevails.
iris lilies
10-8-19, 6:47pm
Perhaps you meant to respond to Rob.
oh yes! I fixed it.
iris lilies
10-8-19, 6:56pm
And here's a heaving helping of logic for you, IL. Less pushback/blowback from the general public if AI and automation are held off until th he next nasty downtown....an economically.fearful population is more likely to accept job losses due to technology without revolt. Why do you think Kroger's and Wal Mart still have cashiers, though the technology exists already to replace them? Next recession many such jobs will be permanently gone with the wind, minus any Civil War being necessary. Rob
I agree with you that there is some public relations pushback about automating jobs for places like Walmart, where the American public sees and touches the automation. That isn’t the case for many many other businesses that have grounds never trodden by the American public. It all can go on behind closed doors.
I love your first paragraph and would personally welcome such....with one caveat. On what money? Where is the money for food and lodging coming from?
What is "money"?
gimmethesimplelife
10-8-19, 7:58pm
I agree with you that there is some public relations pushback about automating jobs for places like Walmart, where the American public sees and touches the automation. That isn’t the case for many many other businesses that have grounds never trodden by the American public. It all can go on behind closed doors.IL, I agree with you that some automation will go on behind closed doors as you say. Where I differ with you is in my assessment of human nature under such a circumstance. In other words, enough such automation coupled with dire economic consequences? An economically fearful population will put up with this to some degree but a line will eventually be crossed with automation victims taking it to the streets ala Hong Kong. There will be pushback - likely not until there a large numbers of automation victims - and things won't be pretty. I would not be surprised if such arrives in America within the next ten years, especially if the GOP retains power - a fate not especially wise for a rough economic period of technology causef job loss. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-8-19, 8:00pm
What is "money"?Paper currency and coins accepted by society as having some measure of worth in the marketplace. Rob
Paper currency and coins accepted by society as having some measure of worth in the marketplace. Rob
Why would "money" be a determining factor in how a society functions, especially after the robots and AI take over all of the boring dehumanizing work? (And where does "money" come from? Who decides?)
Why let that limit your thinking?
gimmethesimplelife
10-8-19, 8:07pm
Why would "money" be a determining factor in how a society functions, especially after the robots and AI take over all of the boring dehumanizing work? (And where does "money" come from? Who decides?)
Why let that limit your thinking?What replaces the concept of money then? Proposals for universal basic income all seem to incorporate the concept of money, and to date these proposals are the only proposed solution(s) I have heard if for the coming AI/automation onslaught. Rob
Paper currency and coins accepted by society as having some measure of worth in the marketplace. Rob
Most of my money is not in this form. I am paid via direct deposit and many of my expenditures are via check or credit card. Can money be electrons transmitted from one entity's account to another's?
gimmethesimplelife
10-8-19, 8:21pm
Most of my money is not in this form. I am paid via direct deposit and many of my expenditures are via check or credit card. Can money be electrons transmitted from one entity's account to another's?True. I mostly live off a credit union debit card myself, with cash not often touching my hands. That said, given that I reside on US soil, as does my credit union, the units of value in my accounts are referred to as x number of dollars and cents. Should I close out my accounts, whatever is left in them will be handed back to me in US dollars and cents. My point? My accounts are not completely removed from the concept of money/currency referred to as the US dollar. Should Razz be reading this, out of respect for our neighbors to the North, in Razz's case such would be referred to as CDN, or Canadian dollars. Rob
IL, I agree with you that some automation will go on behind closed doors as you say. Where I differ with you is in my assessment of human nature under such a circumstance. In other words, enough such automation coupled with dire economic consequences? An economically fearful population will put up with this to some degree but a line will eventually be crossed with automation victims taking it to the streets ala Hong Kong. There will be pushback - likely not until there a large numbers of automation victims - and things won't be pretty. I would not be surprised if such arrives in America within the next ten years, especially if the GOP retains power - a fate not especially wise for a rough economic period of technology causef job loss. Rob
Don’t worry. I’m sure the robot police will be able to handle any problems that crop up.
gimmethesimplelife
10-8-19, 8:47pm
Don’t worry. I’m sure the robot police will be able to handle any problems that crop up.Scary thought! Rob
flowerseverywhere
10-9-19, 6:20am
So getting back to impeachment, what do you think of the WH ordering people not to testify or cooperate, calling the proceedings a Kangaroo court etc?
One thing I keep thinking is as the political tides shift, how will future presidents, congress act? What is acceptable to say and do as a president and cabinet and what are the limits? Who will enforce them?
So getting back to impeachment, what do you think of the WH ordering people not to testify or cooperate, calling the proceedings a Kangaroo court etc?
One thing I keep thinking is as the political tides shift, how will future presidents, congress act? What is acceptable to say and do as a president and cabinet and what are the limits? Who will enforce them?
I think it's part of the normal operating strategy for the Trump administration. Push things into the court system and count on things being so slow it won't seem as relevant, if the courts ever do get around to ruling on things. Or with a little luck the courts will rule in his favor. That was part of the Mueller investigation, too.
I wrote our republic Senator on the impeachment issue under the assumption it will eventually reach the senate. Our state is a swing state and they say it might only take a few republicans senators to start a movement. Probably won't do much good at all other than making me feel a little better.
I agree, T has pushed the limits of executive power so far it seems to endanger the system of checks and balances set up by the constitution. And he's finding enough loopholes to get away with it. I think people said something similar about Obama, but Trump is taking it to new depths.
So getting back to impeachment, what do you think of the WH ordering people not to testify or cooperate, calling the proceedings a Kangaroo court etc?
I think the Democrats are screwing this thing up by not scheduling a vote. I know it's not a necessary component of impeachment but without a majority vote of authorization it comes off seeming like a collection of petulant fascists trying to impose their will. Of course it didn't help that some of them began talking impeachment before Trump even took office.
This foolishness might very well guarantee Trump a second term, and it will serve all of you right.
gimmethesimplelife
10-9-19, 12:32pm
I think the Democrats are screwing this thing up by not scheduling a vote. I know it's not a necessary component of impeachment but without a majority vote of authorization it comes off seeming like a collection of petulant fascists trying to impose their will. Of course it didn't help that some of them began talking impeachment before Trump even took office.
This foolishness might very well guarantee Trump a second term, and it will serve all of you right.Came back to add - Alan as into the rule of law you are and how you have repeatedly auto-sided with US police even in the face of mountains of evidence damning them, I must say I'm surprised. May I ask why the free pass for Donald Trump when he's clearly broken the law? (Seeking the assistance of a foreign government to influence the outcome of an election in any way). Why is Trump in your mind not accountable to the rules of law? Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-9-19, 12:35pm
I think the Democrats are screwing this thing up by not scheduling a vote. I know it's not a necessary component of impeachment but without a majority vote of authorization it comes off seeming like a collection of petulant fascists trying to impose their will. Of course it didn't help that some of them began talking impeachment before Trump even took office.
This foolishness might very well guarantee Trump a second term, and it will serve all of you right.Realistically, and I'm far from alone in this, I doubt that there will be a second term. The Ukranian phone call sunk that, much as Bernie Sanders recent heart attack essentially sank his candidacy. Rob
Came back to add - Alan as into the rule of law you are and how you have repeatedly auto-sided with US police even in the face of mountains of evidence damning them, I must say I'm surprised. May I ask why the free pass for Donald Trump when he's clearly broken the law? (Seeking the assistance of a foreign government to influence the outcome of an election in any way). Why is Trump in your mind not accountable to the rules of law? Rob
I'm not giving him a free pass, I'm disappointed in your side because the democrats are acting like a mob. The very basis of democracy is mob rule, that's why we're a republic.
The House democrats are only interested in influencing people like you who are ok with mob rule. Who is President for any given term in immaterial if we allow our government to work this way.
iris lilies
10-9-19, 12:54pm
Came back to add - Alan as into the rule of law you are and how you have repeatedly auto-sided with US police even in the face of mountains of evidence damning them, I must say I'm surprised. May I ask why the free pass for Donald Trump when he's clearly broken the law? (Seeking the assistance of a foreign government to influence the outcome of an election in any way). Why is Trump in your mind not accountable to the rules of law? Rob
What law did Trump break, Rob?
gimmethesimplelife
10-9-19, 1:14pm
I'm not giving him a free pass, I'm disappointed in your side because the democrats are acting like a mob. The very basis of democracy is mob rule, that's why we're a republic.
The House democrats are only interested in influencing people like you who are ok with mob rule. Who is President for any given term in immaterial if we allow our government to work this way.Whoah....hold your horses, Sir. Mib rule? Please go back a few pages and read of my take regarding not impeaching Trump due to my concerns such would sink the economy and lead to widespread AI and automation, leading to who knows how many Americans hungry and forced into tent cities. Bae posted something about how Germany once faced a situation of economics vs. the most basic of human rights. I refer to the Holocaust of course. Bae's post and the pleadings of some Guatemalans I know who are legally in the country but who have been harrassed by US CBP regardless led me to change my mind. For awhile I was a lone 85006 holdout not screaming for impeachment. True story.
Point? I did indeed think for myself in spite of pressures not to do so. Surprise! Mob rule does not apply to me in this instance. Sorry. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-9-19, 1:17pm
What law did Trump break, Rob?Seeking assistance from a foreign government to influence a US election in any way, shape, or form. In this case, seeking the assistance of the Ukranian President to dig up dirt on Joe Biden and son. Impeachable offense here any way you slice it. Rob
Mob rule does not apply to me in this instance. Sorry. RobSure it does, every aspect of life you share here reflects as much. You just don't recognize it as such.
Obstruction of justice, conspiring with our enemies to influence an election (hell, conspiring with anyone who will cooperate to influence an election)...Trump makes Nixon look like an amateur. Russia is running the show--from Trump shunning the G7, to holding up aid to Ukraine, to allowing Erdogan to slaughter our Allies in Syria, and probably some s*** I've forgot.
"The day Richard Nixon failed to answer that subpoena is the day he was subject to impeachment because he took the power from Congress over the impeachment process away from Congress and he became the judge and jury." --Lindsey Graham, 1998
gimmethesimplelife
10-9-19, 4:19pm
Sure it does, every aspect of life you share here reflects as much. You just don't recognize it as such.OK, Alan, I'll bite. How does taking a stance against the 85006 qualify as participating in mob rule? My take? This time I don't fit in nearly to the space in which you have pigeonholed me. Rob
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