View Full Version : Happy Indigenous People Day
I understand there is a trend to replace Columbus Day with Indigenous Peoples Day. I am all in favor.
It might have gotten past me at another time, but I just finished reading a book on Manifest Destiny and the settling of the west. It's not a bad thing to have a few reminders of the peoples we abused, besides African American slavery, to give us what ever we have today.
I agree. And the other explorers who landed here never get any credit (Chinese, Northern Europeans, possibly Africans)--maybe because they didn't wreak as much mayhem on earlier inhabitants.
happystuff
10-14-19, 4:36pm
I could see an Indigenous Peoples Day.
catherine
10-14-19, 4:50pm
In honor of Indigenous People Day:
Indigenous people believe that Man belongs to the World; civilized people believe that the World belongs to Man.
Daniel Quinn
A great deal of anthropological/ethnological literature describes indigenous peoples who live in oneness with the natural world and one another. Survival itself necessitates a borderlessness between inner and outer worlds. At times we still feel a return to that unified state. T.S. Eliot’s designation of our return is ‘through the unknown remembered gate.'
John Zerzan
“The truth is nobody can own anything. That was an unheard-of concept among indigenous people. We invented that.” » Tom Shadyac
“The forest is not a resource for us, it is life itself. It is the only place for us to live.” » Evaristo Nugkuag Ikanan
“Since the beginning, Native Peoples lived a life of being in harmony with all that surrounds us. It is a belief that all humankind are related to each other. Each has a purpose, spirit and sacredness. It is an understanding with the Great Spirit or Creator that we will follow these ways. And in this understanding we believe we are related to all other living species.” » Dennis Banks
happystuff
10-14-19, 5:21pm
Indigenous people believe that Man belongs to the World; civilized people believe that the World belongs to Man.
Daniel Quinn
Ahhh... Daniel Quinn is a definite favorite of mine. One of the first to really get me thinking about... well, everything!
ApatheticNoMore
10-14-19, 6:53pm
I understand there is a trend to replace Columbus Day with Indigenous Peoples Day. I am all in favor.
I think this being the U.S. there is probably a trend to replace it with not getting the day off at all.
Although most of us don't anyway, I think I have worked one job ever where I had it off (yes that's right, it was for a bank). And if you don't get it off, there is a tendency to notice it about as much as you you notice GO BALD DAY!!! Traffic was light today though, I needed that grace. Indigenous people, I think it might be nice if they just weren't treated like @#$# in the here and now, which I don't actually think we as a country and a world have evolved beyond at all. But that would be too much to ask. But there is always symbolism to be had. I'm not indigenous, opinions expressed are purely my own.
And the Monster Slayer said, "Some things should be left as they are. Perhaps it is better for all of us in the long run that certain enemies endure." From the Navajo Creation Story.
I'm not indigenous, opinions expressed are purely my own.
Technically, no one is. This continent's original homesteaders simply invaded first.
Technically, no one is. This continent's original homesteaders simply invaded first.
I think migration is the more commonly accepted term. The mammoths and ground sloths might differ.
I think migration is the more commonly accepted term.
I think it applies to those crossing the land bridge from the west, but I'm pretty sure it goes against popular culture to say the same about those who came by ship from the east. Mayhem and abuse are not migratory qualities.
I think it applies to those crossing the land bridge from the west, but I'm pretty sure it goes against popular culture to say the same about those who came by ship from the east. Mayhem and abuse are not migratory qualities.
Perhaps I took your comment out of context, when you said this continent's original homesteaders were invaders. My apologies.
I think it applies to those crossing the land bridge from the west, but I'm pretty sure it goes against popular culture to say the same about those who came by ship from the east. Mayhem and abuse are not migratory qualities.
Just recently was reading that more info has come to light that is questioning the wisdom of land bridge. Seems that some DNA is not compatible with that thinking and much reconsideration is going on.
Perhaps I took your comment out of context, when you said this continent's original homesteaders were invaders. My apologies.No worries, it wouldn't be the first time only I knew what I was trying to say.
Which indigenous people are we to celebrate? The deep ecologists or the imperialist human sacrifice folks? Or are we simply meant to feel a twinge of guilt for being here?
Or are we simply meant to feel a twinge of guilt for being here?
Not for just being here, but for the way we got wealth, carried from one generation to the next, by our ancestors/our government swindling people out of their land, giving them smallpox infected blankets, and massacreing them in places like Sand Creek, among other things.
Not for just being here, but for the way we got wealth, carried from one generation to the next, by our ancestors/our government swindling people out of their land, giving them smallpox infected blankets, and massacreing them in places like Sand Creek, among other things.
Well, feel free to pay back whatever you think you owe to whoever you think you owe it to. Even if payment only takes the form of a little handwringing.
For myself, I don’t see the necessity of keeping historical moral debt ledgers.
Which indigenous people are we to celebrate? The deep ecologists or the imperialist human sacrifice folks? Or are we simply meant to feel a twinge of guilt for being here?
And what were we to celebrate on Columbus Day?
I don't know that there is a single answer, but we could always honor them for discovering the Americas. Or for leaving a nice pristine environment for us to occupy.
Well, feel free to pay back whatever you think you owe to whoever you think you owe it to. Even if payment only takes the form of a little handwringing.
For myself, I don’t see the necessity of keeping historical moral debt ledgers.
I would start with giving back the Black Hills. No treaty was ever signed, we just took it.
I would start with giving back the Black Hills. No treaty was ever signed, we just took it.
And now we're taking native land to pillage the oil on it. Some things never change.
And now we're taking native land to pillage the oil on it. Some things never change.
Heck, we basically took everything and left them with some relatively hardscrabble parcels of typically worthless land. And treaties were basically worthless pieces of paper anyway.
I would choose to celebrate a noble people who are part of our national history.
I would start with giving back the Black Hills. No treaty was ever signed, we just took it.
So buy some land and give it to whoever you think deserves it. Just keep me out of it.
Everyone is where they are because “we just took it”. Native American tribes displaced one another with the same vigor the great barbarian tribes of Europe did. Why pick and choose certain historical instances as more deserving of our remorse than others?
So buy some land and give it to whoever you think deserves it. Just keep me out of it.
Everyone is where they are because “we just took it”. Native American tribes displaced one another with the same vigor the great barbarian tribes of Europe did. Why pick and choose certain historical instances as more deserving of our remorse than others?
Would you choose to eliminate certain other Eurocentric reminders of guilt, like say, Holocaust Museums?
Tribes displaced others LDAHL? At least some absorbed others, and adopted captives as full fledged members of the tribe. It's quite different from genocide.
JaneV2.0
10-15-19, 10:07am
There's conjecture that Columbus was glad to remove himself from Europe because he was a crypto-Jew at a time when the Inquisition loomed large, and people were told by the almighty Church to convert or die (later changed to "just die.") The West has a long history of persecution and genocide.
Would you choose to eliminate certain other Eurocentric reminders of guilt, like say, Holocaust Museums?
No. I don’t wish to “eliminate” anything. People should be free to memorialize whatever they wish. I’m happy to leave the cancel culture stuff to others.
I just decline to participate in picking certain historical periods to be outraged over. History is too complicated to be of much use as a morality tale, however attractive that may be to grievance politics.
The West has a long history of persecution and genocide.
The West is hardly alone in that.
I just decline to participate in picking certain historical periods to be outraged over. History is too complicated to be of much use as a morality tale, however attractive that may be to grievance politics.
LDAHL, I respect you personal choices, but with due respect I think you are not seeing this in it's true perspective. In the past, we have memorialized Native Americans on our currency along with buffalo, bald eagle, and the slave owners, Jefferson and Washington. The Dakotas have huge rock sculptures of of presidents and also one of Crazy Horse. Western art has portrayed Native Americans both romantically and realistically. They are a part of our national heritage, some good and some bad, but each worthy of recognition for their own reasons. I favor a specific day to remember these things and find more value in that than Columbus, who really was never an American by any respect.
JaneV2.0
10-15-19, 11:07am
The West is hardly alone in that.
That's very true, but Western culture is the only one I have to apologize for.
That's very true, but Western culture is the only one I have to apologize for.
How far back in history do you feel your apology for the West needs to extend? The Thirty Years War? The Norman Conquest? The destruction of Carthage? The massacre at Melos?
I will take responsibility for my own actions, but I feel no need to take on the guilt of my bloodline or the culture I was born to. I view whatever wealth or privilege you may think I acquired through the sins of the past as mere luck of the draw. My realm of moral responsibility is limited to my conduct in the present and future. I don’t believe in inherited guilt.
JaneV2.0
10-15-19, 12:00pm
How far back in history do you feel your apology for the West needs to extend? The Thirty Years War? The Norman Conquest? The destruction of Carthage? The massacre at Melos?
I will take responsibility for my own actions, but I feel no need to take on the guilt of my bloodline or the culture I was born to. I view whatever wealth or privilege you may think I acquired through the sins of the past as mere luck of the draw. My realm of moral responsibility is limited to my conduct in the present and future. I don’t believe in inherited guilt.
That was said mostly in jest. I find my progenitors' crimes interesting, but not heritable.
That was said mostly in jest. I find my progenitors' crimes interesting, but not heritable.
That’s a relief. Although it might be an interesting actuarial challenge to price out our share of the Potato Famine or the Siege of Acre.
That’s a relief. Although it might be an interesting actuarial challenge to price out our share of the Potato Famine or the Siege of Acre.
I'm just hoping curses handed down at the Salem witch trials don't persist...
I'm just hoping curses handed down at the Salem witch trials don't persist...
That might explain Mr Trump.
There is a huge racial wealth gap in this country. It didn't come about by chance or luck.
dado potato
10-15-19, 7:58pm
The "Father of Wisconsin" was Charles Michel de Langlade (b. 1729). He led armed Indigenous People against revolutionaries during the American Revolution. His base was a trading post now known as Green Bay, WI. He owned slaves.
There is a huge racial wealth gap in this country. It didn't come about by chance or luck.
And you are free to feel as personally guilty over that as you like. I just decline to join you in whatever penance you feel is appropriate.
That might explain Mr Trump.
Hmmm...much more troublesome than "may a thousand sand fleas inhabit your shorts!"
Teacher Terry
10-16-19, 11:39am
History has shown that a large income inequality is bad for a country as a whole.
History has shown that a large income inequality is bad for a country as a whole.
I've never seen income inequality addressed in my studies of history, I have seen extreme poverty addressed although that has pretty much been eliminated in this country. I've never seen wealth and prosperity recorded as a societal negative until this country became prosperous enough to be 'progressive'.
catherine
10-16-19, 12:02pm
I've never seen income inequality addressed in my studies of history, I have seen extreme poverty addressed although that has pretty much been eliminated in this country. Wealth has never been seen as a negative that I'm aware of.
Ask the Bolsheviks, the Jacobins if they thought a few people sopping up all the wealth was a negative.
Ask the Bolsheviks, the Jacobins if they thought a few people sopping up all the wealth was a negative.
Their solutions certainly were.
catherine
10-16-19, 1:18pm
Their solutions certainly were.
That's what we have to look forward to, if the poor are squeezed out so the wealthy can get wealthier. You thought Occupy Wall Street was bad. As they say, "Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it."
That's what we have to look forward to, if the poor are squeezed out so the wealthy can get wealthier. You thought Occupy Wall Street was bad. As they say, "Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it."
I don’t think Occupy was all that scary, except perhaps in the esthetic sense. Nor do I think we are anywhere near a starving peasant phase.
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