View Full Version : Working vs Not Working on US Retirement
A fresh off the proverbial boat immigrant in my state aged 65 or older, even if perfectly healthy, receives SSI amounts below without having paid one penny into the Social Security system or any other taxes:
$885 per month if living alone
$601.58 if living with a relative
$1,125 if in assisted living
If I who have worked and paid taxes since I was a teen keep working until I am 62 I will get $1280 per month.
It seems that work is not rewarded. I support the plans of Bernie Sanders and others to increase Social Security benefits, but only for those who have paid into the system. I support the efforts of the Trump administration to end chain migration and to stop accepting economic immigrants who are not self-sufficient. I do believe there is a place here for refugees on humanitarian grounds.
The two Democrats who poll in double digits among those who voted for Trump are Sanders and Yang. Yang's UBI payments would only go to US citizens.
Teacher Terry
10-23-19, 7:46pm
In Massachusetts you must be either a qualified alien or the USA and their country of origin must have a totalization agreement for the person to qualify.
The people I know getting these welfare payments from what was supposed to be a contributory program are qualified aliens aka have green cards due to chain migration.
ETA: the income payments pale in comparison to their medical bills, picked up even before age 65 by Medicaid in other words you and me the taxpayer. Americans who work for a living are rationing their insulin and some of them are dying, but the green card people I know have no worries. One has diabetes, one a heart attack and other medical problems, a third leukemia.
I would much rather pay reparations to people whose families built this country with no pay than support people who have mooched off it from the day they set foot on its soil because it's too cold to leave my house except for medical appointments or I don't want to bother to learn English so I can get a job that I do not feel is beneath me.
JaneV2.0
10-24-19, 10:00am
I love how all of us down here at the bottom are jealously guarding our crumbs while robber barons at the top are stealing the country blind, and hardly anyone says a word.
I love how all of us down here at the bottom are jealously guarding our crumbs while robber barons at the top are stealing the country blind, and hardly anyone says a word.
Right? It's why I don't get involved in these types of conversations. Who is going to DC to fight this? Anyone here complaining headed there?
ApatheticNoMore
10-24-19, 11:45am
I love how all of us down here at the bottom are jealously guarding our crumbs while robber barons at the top are stealing the country blind, and hardly anyone says a word.
They could say a word but what good would it do. I don't want to discourage anyone doing actual work to improve things of course.
But we have whole posturing cities and states that are sanctuary states etc. but CAN'T house the homeless and the working class and middle class fears joining them and some have, CAN'T create affordable housing, CAN'T build decent public transit etc. etc.. They aren't all bad of course, and they have their legitimate obstacles but ... Ok, ok, so some blue (and some red) states in the U.S. are all screwed up, but what about Denmark? Ha, I have regular conversations about Denmark with someone originally from there. Denmark is one of the few places in Europe that is turning to the left not the right, probably partly because their Social Democratic party is NOT pro-immigration like so many left parties in Europe that have been losing. So the Social Democrats win there, and make climate change their top priority (because of course they don't have to spend decades figuring out something basic like how to provide healthcare either, so have the bandwidth to do so).
Right? It's why I don't get involved in these types of conversations. Who is going to DC to fight this? Anyone here complaining headed there?
I'd have to take a train or drive there, I signed a no-flying pledge. And like so many other working people, I don't actually have time off work now either of course. Uh and that's pretty laughable as a good use of one's time I think, why not just do something where one is? One can focus on local politics or there is a presidential campaign underway, congresspeople are up for election in 2020, some Senators ...
I'd have to take a train or drive there, I signed a no-flying pledge. And like so many other working people, I don't actually have time off work now either of course. Uh and that's pretty laughable as a good use of one's time I think, why not just do something where one is? One can focus on local politics or there is a presidential campaign underway, congresspeople are up for election in 2020, some Senators ...
Ah but you got my point. DO SOMETHING! Yes, I send letters to my Congressmen (yes, all men in my state dammit) regularly on topics of concern to me. Local politics won't change the SS rules-that's federal...but I know that you know that.
I am considerrng these issues in the 2020 elections. And it would not surprise me if Trump wins a second term, though I won't be voting for him. I get why some people do though. As ApatheticNoMore noted we should take care of our own first. How many of us run into a tax shirker like Jeff Bezos in our daily lives? But we do run into immigrants supposedly being sponsored but taking advantage of our system.
Yes, the people at the top should pay more too - to benefit their fellow US CITIZENS.
I wonder what would happen to these people who are over 65 if there were no federal assistance, possibly unable to have productive work and with health problems? Some things don't seem right, but I don't have a good solution and among all the problems we have it's not a high priority to me.
Could be worth verifying, but assuming they don't just "step off the boat at 65" and have had jobs here they would have paid something into social security.
Maybe they would not come here to begin but stay in their countries of origin Rogar. Instead of getting their healthcare in the most expensive place on earth on someone else's dime they could pay what medical tourists like Rob do, because people like Rob can't afford what it costs here since he works for a living and is not eligible for all the freebies.
It sounds like I should get a green card!
How many of us run into a tax shirker like Jeff Bezos in our daily lives? Probably not enough of us because we could probably use lots more Bezos types. People think of his operation as a tax shirker because he reinvests so much money into the business that the credits designed to incentivize that sort of thing come into play. What the federal government would normally claim as its own then goes to local workers/business partners and the like. Those credits actually create more opportunity in the areas in which they operate than the federal government could ever provide with the same money. Plus, Amazon pays over a Billion $ per year in state and local income taxes, further enhancing the areas in which they operate. I think we could use lots more tax shirkers like Bezos.
Maybe they would not come here to begin but stay in their countries of origin Rogar. Instead of getting their healthcare in the most expensive place on earth on someone else's dime they could pay what medical tourists like Rob do, because people like Rob can't afford what it costs here since he works for a living and is not eligible for all the freebies.
I actually think the majority of qualified aliens actually come here for work. Homeless citizens who could actually work is another can of worms. But like i said, there are bigger problems in my book.
ETA, My question is, what qualifications are required to be over 65, come to the country, and then become a qualified alien. How common is this and how much of an impact is it on costs to welfare systems.
How many of us run into a tax shirker like Jeff Bezos in our daily lives?
How precisely is he a "shirker"?
There is an alternative minimum tax, so everyone should be paying some taxes. Those who do not are shirkers.
Yes, you can come here under chain migration prior to age 65, never work, and collect at 65. Or you can come at 65 or older never work and collect if you are a chain immigrant. All you need is a relative already in the country who signs that they will sponsor you. Then despite that promise you can get some free government bennies like Medicaid immediately. Others like EBT you gave to wait 5 years for.
There is an alternative minimum tax, so everyone should be paying some taxes. Those who do not are shirkers.
That's not exactly how the AMT works...
Correction: everyone making over $191,100 a year should be paying taxes. I should not have written everyone should be paying taxes. It is only everyone rich who should be paying alternative minimum taxes. Bezos makes more than $191,100 a year.
It sounds like I should get a green card!
My take is that since your are a youngster in relative terms, you'd have to pay into the system and meet the same requirements as us citizen commoners to get SS? A green card might still come in handy, though.
My take is that since your are a youngster in relative terms, you'd have to pay into the system and meet the same requirements as us citizen commoners to get SS? A green card might still come in handy, though.
Find a relative who will support you until you are 65. Why work? Why leave your house when the weather is cold? Why learn English? You don't have to pay in, you can still collect.
Correction: everyone making over $191,100 a year should be paying taxes. I should not have written everyone should be paying taxes. It is only everyone rich who should be paying alternative minimum taxes. Bezos makes more than $191,100 a year.
Your theory is that Bezos shows $191,101 or more in AGI, and somehow doesn't pay any income tax?
Where is your support for this? Do you have one of his tax returns to show us how he performs this magic trick?
(Some years I have "made" more than $191,101, and paid $0 in Federal income tax, but....that wasn't because I was "shirking". That income also didn't make it down to line XX on the 1040...)
Shirking is by definition neglecting a duty or responsibility.
Tax loopholes written by lobbyists for the wealthy may be legal, but they are immoral and unfair. The rich often pay nothing, people who are not even citizens collect while doing nothing, and the working and middle class citizens worry about medical bills and other financial problems all the time. No wonder populists are doing so well.
Shirking is by definition neglecting a duty or responsibility.
Tax loopholes written by lobbyists for the wealthy may be legal, but they are immoral and unfair. The rich often pay nothing, people who are not even citizens collect while doing nothing, and the working and middle classes worry about medical bills and other financial problems all the time. No wonder populists are doing so well.
So you are just making stuff up. Mere cant.
"Any one may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes."
Judge Learned Hand, Helvering v. Gregory, 69 F.2d 809, 810-11 (2d Cir. 1934).
Build your business from the educational system that trains your workforce, the infrastructure that allows you to get your products to market, and the legal system that allows you to operate without your profits being stolen or confiscated but don't pay any taxes. The immigrants paying nothing in but collecting benefits aren't the only freeloaders.
Foolishness. You are casting moral shade on people who are simply following the legal guidelines our society has set up, and who are structuring their operations to conform with the policies promoted by our elected representatives and cast into law.
And you have not yet backed up your claim that Jeff pays no taxes.
So, yes, mere cant.
So you are just making stuff up. Mere cant.
"Any one may so arrange his affairs that his taxes shall be as low as possible; he is not bound to choose that pattern which will best pay the Treasury; there is not even a patriotic duty to increase one's taxes."
Judge Learned Hand, Helvering v. Gregory, 69 F.2d 809, 810-11 (2d Cir. 1934).
1934. Great advice if you are a have and don't want to help out the have-nots during the middle of the Great Depression. Remind me, which social class's Wall Street speculation got us into the Great Depression to begin with? And which populist president pushed reforms to get us out of it?
Foolishness. You are casting moral shade on people ... with the policies promoted by our elected representatives and cast into law.
.
It was legal to make money off slaves in this country for a couple hundred years. I have every right to cast moral shade on people who through lobbyists and outsize donations aka bribes twisted our government to benefit their special interests. Legality does not equal morality.
catherine
10-24-19, 8:50pm
Foolishness. You are casting moral shade on people who are simply following the legal guidelines our society has set up,
Exactly. So maybe the "legal guidelines" should be changed. I'm up for suggestions.
I happen to agree with Yppej that it sucks that people who pay into a system their whole lives should benefit equally with those who cross the border today, if that's what is happening. But if you are in tune with Biblical stories, unfairness is to be expected. Look at Job, and the Prodigal Son's brother. Both could say, WTF??
But from a political perspective, how do you account for injustice? Which system of government reduces injustice? Probably none. Not capitalism. Not socialism. Not libertarianism. We should probably just agree that life isn't fair. Maybe we shouldn't expect the government to make it fair. But I would like a government that tries to make it fair for most of its citizens. If that means raising taxes on those who have benefited from this system, so be it. If it means making sure that Yppej is compensated for years of service to the country, so be it. Not an easy task to make everyone feel they're in the same boat, but what we have now isn't cutting it.
Teacher Terry
10-24-19, 9:06pm
I am shocked that sponsored immigrants can qualify for benefits. Their family should support them. But I am much more disturbed by the wealthy evading taxes legally and not paying their fair share either. Lots of blame to go around. Like usual the people in the middle class will suffer.
I am shocked that sponsored immigrants can qualify for benefits. Their family should support them. But I am much more disturbed by the wealthy evading taxes legally and not paying their fair share either. Lots of blame to go around. Like usual the people in the middle class will suffer.
You can thank the highly beloved Ron Reagan for this. His tax changes nearly bankrupted us but I was too damn stubborn to file.
The tax codes don't always seem fair. There have been alternate tax systems that various politicians have proposed, but the people who vote seem not to have opted for those folks. A flat tax has some appeal to me. There will be more opportunities.
If I were wealthy or uber-wealthy I'd rather direct where my funds go rather than have the government determine that through taxation and their budget. There have been a lot of philanthropists and wealthy foundations that have supported various good causes. Unfortunately there are others who only value an accumulation of wealth, which I don't quite get.
1934. Great advice if you are a have ...
Do you know who Learned Hand was?
It was legal to make money off slaves in this country for a couple hundred years.
Come now.
Find a relative who will support you until you are 65. Why work? Why leave your house when the weather is cold? Why learn English? You don't have to pay in, you can still collect.
Sounds like a few of my friends with 35 year old children living in their basement, although they seem to know English and are citizens.
Sounds like a few of my friends with 35 year old children living in their basement, although they seem to know English and are citizens.
And their parents probably are not claiming them as dependents on their income taxes either, unlike these supposed sponsors of immigrants who don't fully support their relatives yet claim them come tax time. If people want to support their relatives fine, or if the country their relatives worked and paid taxes into wants to support them, fine. I just don't want to. There are enough needy US citizens my tax dollars should be helping. And Bezos and others of his ilk are not among those needy. I oppose all corporate welfare as well as welfare programs for non-citizens.
There are US citizens who retire in other countries where the cost of living is lower. They do it because their US Social Security dollars will go further there, not so the other country will support them. This is the way it should be with people coming here.
Do you know who Learned Hand was?
Learned Hand was a judge. Judges have above average incomes. He was a have.
catherine
10-25-19, 8:46am
If I were wealthy or uber-wealthy I'd rather direct where my funds go rather than have the government determine that through taxation and their budget. There have been a lot of philanthropists and wealthy foundations that have supported various good causes.
According to research, philanthropy is skewed toward those charitable causes that support elite foundations like universities and museums and never "trickle down" (to use Reagan's term) to people that need it most. If you're at a poker game would you want the dealer out of the picture, and leave it to the high roller to decide who gets what cards?
I like the idea that "charity" is not all that charitable--the need for charity, systemic or otherwise, represents a system where charity is needed, and it would be better to have a system where charity is not needed because people are getting what they need.
There are US citizens who retire in other countries where the cost of living is lower. They do it because their US Social Security dollars will go further there, not so the other country will support them. This is the way it should be with people coming here.
I think you are assuming that significant numbers of qualified aliens come here just to play the system. And that they are a lazy lot less motivated to work than us regular citizens. That's just opinion. My opinion is that they come here to work a particular job, because they are a refugee, or to be near close family. There are obviously exceptions.
I like the idea that "charity" is not all that charitable--the need for charity, systemic or otherwise, represents a system where charity is needed, and it would be better to have a system where charity is not needed because people are getting what they need.
It sounds to me like you are describing a system of income re-distribution that has failed to meet the needs of the people and that government could be improved to eliminate the need for charity giving? I like the idea also, but it's rather utopian.
catherine
10-25-19, 9:50am
I like the idea also, but it's rather utopian.
True. I'm always searching for Utopia.
Teacher Terry
10-25-19, 11:01am
My friends spent a year in Europe and Ireland in particular made sure that they had enough money to support themselves and that they didn’t qualify for any benefits. The system needs to change so it’s the same here for older immigrants.
My friends spent a year in Europe and Ireland in particular made sure that they had enough money to support themselves and that they didn’t qualify for any benefits. The system needs to change so it’s the same here for older immigrants.
Exactly. TT. Most immigrants who come here and start a chain are hardworking and not gaming the system as Rogar notes. The problem is with their freeloading relatives. Trump is correct that migration should be based on merit, not connections.
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