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bae
10-31-19, 1:36pm
Setting aside for the moment dress code issues, procedural issues, and such:

*If* Trump did engage in the alleged behaviour that is claimed (by whistleblowers, direct witnesses, his own Chief of Staff on national TV, and perhaps from his own lips) - trading US aid to foreign powers the for personal benefit of having his political opponents investigated:

Should he be impeached? Convicted, if the evidence shows the claims? Thrown out of office on his ear?

Starting timer...

Teacher Terry
10-31-19, 1:45pm
All of the above:))

JaneV2.0
10-31-19, 1:47pm
I think proper procedures should be followed as laid out in the Constitution.

I'd like to see him escorted out of office in handcuffs by US Marshals because I believe that's what he deserves, but I doubt that will happen.

LDAHL
10-31-19, 1:58pm
Starting timer...

This isn’t Jeopardy and you aren’t Alex Trebek, but I think the process should proceed.

If the promised bombshells turn out to be squibs yet again. The Democrats will pay a price. If not, the President should pay some kind of price Given that in this case the House is a grand jury packed with sworn enemies and the Senate is a trial jury packed with friends, I would think that price will be more political than legal.

It looks like Joe Biden is already sustaining some collateral damage. Even if he wins out in the primary process, his enemies will play the video of him bragging about using loan guarantees to pressure Ukraine to fire a prosecutor. Sort of the way the swiftboat group kept playing John Kerry’s words over and over.

Alan
10-31-19, 2:11pm
I think the articles of impeachment need to be prepared and sent on to the Senate where that august body will find the means to conduct a fair and impartial trial. If the evidence fits the charges and he is convicted, he should be immediately removed from office, if there is any hint of political shenanigans in this attempt to remove him he should be promptly acquitted and let the voters decide if he deserves to remain in office a year from now.

It's the impartial trial that will be the tricky part.

catherine
10-31-19, 3:22pm
It's the impartial trial that will be the tricky part.

I found it interesting just how partisan the vote was, with ALL the House Republicans voting NO and ALL BUT TWO House Democrats voting YES.

jp1
10-31-19, 3:47pm
It's the impartial trial that will be the tricky part.

Indeed. Moscow Mitch has already made it clear that he will do whatever's necessary to insure that that won't happen.

Rogar
10-31-19, 4:09pm
I'm currently undecided about removal from office, but assuming all the evidence collaborates the existing stories, it would be in error to let him get away Scot free. Unfortunately I don't know of any other punitive measures available. Not only would it indicate a failure of our system of checks and balances, but it would set precedent for either party to seek personal gain by using the office of the president to bribe, intimidate, or extort favors from foreign countries.

I listened to the introductory remarks by both parties before the vote to proceed today and to expect this will have an unbiased and objective vote in the Senate is pure humor.

ETA: Changed impeachment to removal from office. Our republican senator replied to my email of concern today. Cory Gardner has been in the national news a couple of times since we are a swing state. Basically lip service, but he emphasized the severity of removal from office and that the senate has never removed a president from office. I pretty much know where that's headed barring the unforeseen.

JaneV2.0
10-31-19, 4:28pm
I'm currently undecided about impeachment, but assuming all the evidence collaborates the existing stories, it would be in error to let him get away Scot free. Unfortunately I don't know of any other punitive measures available. Not only would it indicate a failure of our system of checks and balances, but it would set precedent for either party to seek personal gain by using the office of the president to bribe, intimidate, or extort favors from foreign countries.

I listened to the introductory remarks by both parties before the vote to proceed today and to expect this will have an unbiased and objective vote in the Senate is pure humor.

Word is that all Trump's big money donors are already bribing Republican senators to vote "correctly."
https://www.newsweek.com/trump-committing-felony-bribery-giving-fundraising-cash-gop-senators-ahead-impeachment-trial-1468946
I hope this corrupt bunch of jackals is thoroughly routed in the 2020 elections. At least during Watergate, their were honorable Republicans. Such an idea seems quaint now.

Alan
10-31-19, 4:54pm
At least during Watergate, their were honorable Republicans. Such an idea seems quaint now.As I recall, during Watergate no one began preparation for impeachment before Nixon had a chance to assume the office. In this case the Impeach Trump Leadership PAC was created during his first month in office and was tasked with getting the job done. I've lost track since then but I believe there were at least 3 formal requests by honorable Democrats to begin impeachment proceedings before they were able to latch onto a reason that resonated with the public (after being given the proper buildup). Now we're on at least the 4th attempt and those pesky Republicans are not impressed enough with the Democrats honorable intentions to make it easy for them. Damn Republicans!

JaneV2.0
10-31-19, 5:02pm
Any of the charges against Trump will pale in comparison to lying about consensual sex. I'm pretty sure.

iris lilies
10-31-19, 5:21pm
If he really did do it then yes he should be removed from office.

I would prefer not to quibble here about what “it “is although that will be the stuff of news reports for weeks or months.For me an obvious quid pro quo offer from the president gets him the boot.I suppose we will have to endure endless parsings of things like what “is “is. Yay, us.

Edited to add: After reading Rogers post I agree that the Senate needs to be careful about removing a president from office and the people voted him in.

JaneV2.0
10-31-19, 6:14pm
The idea that everything he does leads back to Russia is bolstered by his withholding monies from beleaguered Ukraine, while Putin solidified his hold on Crimea and the eastern part of that country. But I don't believe it's all Russia--plenty of what he does is designed to profit himself and his fat-cat supporters. Doral G-7--bwahahah!

Teacher Terry
10-31-19, 6:17pm
As much as I hate him we must be careful to follow the laws because we don’t want to set a unfair precedent.

JaneV2.0
10-31-19, 6:52pm
As much as I hate him we must be careful to follow the laws because we don’t want to set a unfair precedent.

The idea "When they go low, we go high" hasn't worked too well for us. But really, it's all we've got.

The "unfair precedent" has been long since reached and surpassed, what with Merrick Garland and McConnell's stonewalling on nearly every bill sent to the Senate for a vote.

jp1
10-31-19, 6:52pm
The members of the senate also need to be careful to not accept bribes from the person whom they will be judging in the upcoming impeachment trial.

gimmethesimplelife
10-31-19, 9:57pm
Dress code issues? Rob

LDAHL
11-1-19, 7:32am
Any of the charges against Trump will pale in comparison to lying about consensual sex. I'm pretty sure.

How "consensual" is it when powerful people like Clinton or Katie Hill prey on young subordinates?

LDAHL
11-1-19, 7:35am
I see there is now a name being attached to the whistler. At least one is bubbling up from the internet and beginning to appear in more respectable sources.

LDAHL
11-1-19, 8:19am
The idea "When they go low, we go high" hasn't worked too well for us. But really, it's all we've got.


Can the people who commissioned the Steele Dossier and then used it as a pretext to spy on their opposition credibly claim the moral high ground?

Rogar
11-1-19, 8:54am
Can the people who commissioned the Steele Dossier and then used it as a pretext to spy on their opposition credibly claim the moral high ground?

Who commissioned the dossier and was it illegal, such as obstruction of justice or abuse of power? Pretty much ancient history now but maybe it's all in Hillary's missing emails.

Why is it relevant to Trump's impeachment?

LDAHL
11-1-19, 9:16am
Who commissioned the dossier and was it illegal, such as obstruction of justice or abuse of power? Pretty much ancient history now but maybe it's all in Hillary's missing emails.

Why is it relevant to Trump's impeachment?

Does 2016 count as ancient history? I don’t think the funding provided by the Clinton campaign and the Democratic National Committee was necessarily illegal, but using it to get FISA warrants seems aromatic of an abuse of power to me. The whole thing certainly doesn’t strike me as “we go high”.

Rogar
11-1-19, 9:41am
LDAHL, with due respect, if there was anything substantial to your issues I suspect the conservatives would love nothing more than another diversion from the real impeachment allegations. I've n ot heard it mentioned at all.

JaneV2.0
11-1-19, 10:15am
On the Steele dossier:

https://themoscowproject.org/tags/fusiongpssteeledossier/

LDAHL
11-1-19, 10:35am
LDAHL, with due respect, if there was anything substantial to your issues I suspect the conservatives would love nothing more than another diversion from the real impeachment allegations. I've n ot heard it mentioned at all.

I bring it up as a counter to the assertion that the Democrats are paragons of virtue who would never stoop to the vile tactics of the Republicans. I understand there is an ongoing investigation. I agree that any case against Trump should stand on its own merits, but admit that the virtue-signaling is somewhat rankling.

LDAHL
11-1-19, 10:45am
On the Steele dossier:

https://themoscowproject.org/tags/fusiongpssteeledossier/

Offering up a partisan web site as your authority is a bit like citing Fox News as an authoritative source.

The previous administration and the Mueller probe would have been delighted to use it to bludgeon Trump with it had there been anything they could have used.

bae
11-1-19, 12:19pm
Starting timer...

Well, that didn’t take long.

JaneV2.0
11-1-19, 1:08pm
What is the Fox/Republican take on the Steele dossier? I haven't paid attention, natch.

Seems to me it was just oppositional research into a political rival. But I could be wrong.

At any rate, it would be in a different category than international extortion by a sitting president, surely.

Alan
11-1-19, 1:13pm
At any rate, it would be in a different category than international extortion by a sitting president, surely.
What if the sitting president being extorted says he's not?

JaneV2.0
11-1-19, 1:18pm
What if the sitting president being extorted says he's not?

Of course he does--he wants support from the U.S., and/or he doesn't want to be on the receiving end of Putin-style retribution. Kind of like the battered wife who insists she's just clumsy. Fortunately, there are transcripts.

JaneV2.0
11-1-19, 1:22pm
"Contrary to repeated assertions by Trump,[26] Fox News,[27] and many of his supporters, the dossier was not the impetus for the opening of the FBI's "Crossfire Hurricane" counterintelligence investigation into the Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election campaign.[28]"

From Wikipedia:(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump%E2%80%93Russia_dossier)

LDAHL
11-1-19, 1:55pm
"Contrary to repeated assertions by Trump,[26] Fox News,[27] and many of his supporters, the dossier was not the impetus for the opening of the FBI's "Crossfire Hurricane" counterintelligence investigation into the Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election campaign.[28]"

From Wikipedia:(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump%E2%80%93Russia_dossier)

That’s true. The impetus was in large part political, but “source1” cited in several FISA hearings was the Steele document. Now that Durham has subpoena power, more light will hopefully be shed on what happened.

LDAHL
11-1-19, 1:58pm
What if the sitting president being extorted says he's not?

You have to feel sorry for the Ukrainians. First Biden and then Trump pushing them around. Not to mention Putin’s little green men.

Rogar
11-1-19, 3:49pm
I bring it up as a counter to the assertion that the Democrats are paragons of virtue who would never stoop to the vile tactics of the Republicans. I understand there is an ongoing investigation. I agree that any case against Trump should stand on its own merits, but admit that the virtue-signaling is somewhat rankling.

No argument from me. The sword of subversive politics cuts on both edges of the blade.

Rogar
11-1-19, 4:23pm
Well, that didn’t take long.

Care to offer your opinion? There are a few sands left in the hour glass.

Alan
11-1-19, 5:10pm
Care to offer your opinion? There are a few sands left in the hour glass.
Never trust an hour glass, mine was nearly 3 minutes slow!

https://scontent-ort2-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16142576_10208754060874999_4786329114680902612_n.j pg?_nc_cat=110&cachebreaker=sd&_nc_oc=AQm32dFlY5615XdFeYrrgFFHhd3bh3sFIzL6FU4gRzU YYqfsyt3NXIsrddKX66RP8SSEVkCQ7f6oGVCJgi2o1eD5&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-2.xx&oh=e5f4880f4b16cd705c0b93114139fc70&oe=5E1D6304

bae
11-1-19, 7:27pm
Care to offer your opinion? There are a few sands left in the hour glass.

Oh, I was simply measuring how long it would take for the smoke and confusion to be thrown into the thread.

I have a Bingo version of it with the keywords too, if you want to play at home.

Rogar
11-1-19, 7:52pm
Oh, I was simply measuring how long it would take for the smoke and confusion to be thrown into the thread.

I have a Bingo version of it with the keywords too, if you want to play at home.

Glad we could entertain you.

Alan
11-1-19, 8:04pm
Oh, I was simply measuring how long it would take for the smoke and confusion to be thrown into the thread.
Well to be fair, when you start planning an impeachment and spend nearly 3 years trying to find a viable basis, all the various pieces are understandably murky.

jp1
11-2-19, 12:53am
To be fair, when you ignore all the evidence and call the impeachment a witchhunt it shouldn’t be a surprise that people think you’re as big of a clown as the joker who currently lives in the Whitehouse.

Alan
11-2-19, 5:03am
To be fair, when you ignore all the evidence and call the impeachment a witchhunt it shouldn’t be a surprise that people think you’re as big of a clown as the joker who currently lives in the Whitehouse.
I think I see where you're going with that and I'd prefer you think of me as a jester in your mental panorama of stooges if you please. Thanks in advance.

Rogar
11-2-19, 8:26am
Well to be fair, when you start planning an impeachment and spend nearly 3 years trying to find a viable basis, all the various pieces are understandably murky.

It took years to get Capone. He was known for getting his men to do the dirty work for him. Then they could only get him on tax evasion in spite of other corruptions. They said about Gotti, he would never say hit that guy, he would say something like, do me a favor, get rid of that stone in my shoe.

Alan
11-2-19, 9:53am
It took years to get Capone. He was known for getting his men to do the dirty work for him. Then they could only get him on tax evasion in spite of other corruptions. They said about Gotti, he would never say hit that guy, he would say something like, do me a favor, get rid of that stone in my shoe.Well I suppose that justifies it then. I've only just recently begun seeing this impeachment effort as an attempt to achieve an end by any means possible and hadn't really considered the methods past successes.

JaneV2.0
11-2-19, 12:04pm
Trump has been a low-rent mob boss for decades. He even had the notorious Roy Cohn on retainer. Maybe he'll eventually be called to account for his lying, cheating, grifting behavior; it's a long time coming.

"Trump’s behavior and language have also been likened to that of mobsters by several news outlets, who have noted that his speech is often peppered with terms typically used by members of the mob, like late Gambino family boss John Gotti. The president’s former attorney, Michael Cohen, who is currently serving a three-year sentence in federal prison for tax evasion and campaign finance violation, has also remarked that Trump operates “much like a mobster would do,” in February, while testifying before the House Oversight and Reform Committee. And Cohen should know – he has alleged mob connections himself.

Perhaps it’s common when working as a major real estate developer and landlord in New York City to brush up against mob-connected figures. The Five Families of New York have historically been influential in the city’s construction unions and private waste management companies, for example. Even so, Trump’s history of friendly – and sometimes ethically dubious – interactions with mobsters is remarkably long and complex. "

From https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/politics/news-politics/trumps-mob-connections.html

Rogar
11-2-19, 1:33pm
There is a movie out or coming out called, Where's My Roy Cohn. It's about Roy and also Donald's early mentoring by him. The quote, Where's My Roy Cohen, is something Donald said around the firing of Sessions. One commentary said if you were in the same room as Roy you knew you were in the presence of evil.

I suppose the Senate vote is showing signs of being predetermined, but along the lines of entertaining thought alternatives, what if the Republicans acknowledge something like quid pro quo but say there is nothing wrong with it? I could see it.

LDAHL
11-2-19, 1:58pm
Trump has been a low-rent mob boss for decades. He even had the notorious Roy Cohn on retainer. Maybe he'll eventually be called to account for his lying, cheating, grifting behavior; it's a long time coming.

"Trump’s behavior and language have also been likened to that of mobsters by several news outlets, who have noted that his speech is often peppered with terms typically used by members of the mob, like late Gambino family boss John Gotti. The president’s former attorney, Michael Cohen, who is currently serving a three-year sentence in federal prison for tax evasion and campaign finance violation, has also remarked that Trump operates “much like a mobster would do,” in February, while testifying before the House Oversight and Reform Committee. And Cohen should know – he has alleged mob connections himself.

Perhaps it’s common when working as a major real estate developer and landlord in New York City to brush up against mob-connected figures. The Five Families of New York have historically been influential in the city’s construction unions and private waste management companies, for example. Even so, Trump’s history of friendly – and sometimes ethically dubious – interactions with mobsters is remarkably long and complex. "

From https://www.cityandstateny.com/articles/politics/news-politics/trumps-mob-connections.html

There is a long history of links between New York Democrats and criminal organizations like the Mafia and the KKK. As a former Democrat, it would be easy to believe Trump may have had some exposure.

Rogar
11-2-19, 2:16pm
There is a long history of links between New York Democrats and criminal organizations like the Mafia and the KKK. As a former Democrat, it would be easy to believe Trump may have had some exposure.

"The Mafia are very nice people, just don't owe them money" Donald T.

LDAHL
11-2-19, 2:21pm
"The Mafia are very nice people, just don't owe them money" Donald T.

Wise advice. Also applicable to the Chinese and Mastercard

Rogar
11-2-19, 2:31pm
The Mafia are not nice people.

JaneV2.0
11-2-19, 3:27pm
I'm pretty sure Trump has no loyalty to any party; just show him the money.

jp1
11-2-19, 5:35pm
I suppose the Senate vote is showing signs of being predetermined, but along the lines of entertaining thought alternatives, what if the Republicans acknowledge something like quid pro quo but say there is nothing wrong with it? I could see it.

That’s almost a given. Originally the defense was ‘THERE WAS NO QUID PRO QUO’ But now that it’s quite clear there was quid pro quo they have to pivot. Rational people, and history, will view them harshly. Russiapublicans will be cool with it.

Rogar
11-2-19, 7:07pm
Well, it will be interesting. Since Donald has said a dozen or two times, No Quid, he may not find that acceptable. He's not one to back down and his devotees will have to decide. But that's a couple more levels into possibilities.

ToomuchStuff
11-3-19, 10:26am
The Mafia are not nice people.


Don't ever let them know, your learning Italian! And remembrances of being told I had no business with ones daughter, because I was not a good Italian boy, come to mind. (two weeks before he was executed in the street, in daylight)