I wish I'd never been born: the rise of the anti-natalists

[Ultralight]

This is an interesting article. I have felt similarly since I was a teenager.

"Adherents view life not as a gift and a miracle, but a harm and an imposition. And their notion that having children may be a bad idea seems to be gaining mainstream popularity."

Here is the link:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/14/anti-natalists-childfree-population-climate-change

[rosarugosa]

I am on board with this. I have a good life and will try to make the best of it while I am here, but life is definitely not a gift in my opinion and I am glad I have not inflicted it on anyone else. Interesting, I never knew there was a name or a movement for this.

[Ultralight]

I am on board with this. I have a good life and will try to make the best of it while I am here, but life is definitely not a gift in my opinion and I am glad I have not inflicted it on anyone else. Interesting, I never knew there was a name or a movement for this.

It is definitely interesting! I am child-free because I have been a little bit careful and a lotta bit lucky. haha

I think it is easier for me now, at age 40, to remain child-free than it was in my 20s.

[happystuff]

This is just initial reaction after reading the article, so I still have more thinking to do. But, my first thought was, "You are ALIVE and saying that being alive is bad; nothing/no one else should be bought to life." What about that life that comes and believes that life IS a gift? Wouldn't them NOT being born be denying them their beliefs? And, from another perspective, if life is so bad, why are you staying in it? While suicide always seems to be viewed negatively, what about personal/individual 'end of life/quality of life' decisions?

Again, these are my initial questions after one read of the article. It seems the viewpoint is somewhat narrow, to me. I look forward to other perspectives.

[iris lilies]

I think these people are depressed.

[Ultralight]

I think these people are depressed.

Don't you often caution me about diagnosing people?

[iris lilies]

Don't you often caution me about diagnosing people?
Haha, yep.

I am reading for the second time that classic book about a psychopath called “We need to talk about Kevin.” This is a novel of course, But I think the author is brilliant at giving insight into one of these nihilistic young men who commit mass murder at a high school. Anyway, she suggests that the core of Kevin is deep sadness for being alive.

He is just sad. He doesn’t want to be in the world. That feeling causes him to distrust The humans around him who do seem to enjoy life. He cannot understand any of his friends and family who develop passions for things in life.

[Ultralight]

I think a person can wish they were never born and, at the same time, not actively want to commit suicide.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Depressed in a psychologized culture implies there is a cure in the present. I think this is much more likely to indicate that childhood was hell, and so I rather doubt there is. I'm not sure there is any total escape from people who got that badly scarred in childhood.


What about that life that comes and believes that life IS a gift? Wouldn't them NOT being born be denying them their beliefs?

what if it is rather impossible to imagine them sharing one's DNA or possibly even having one as even an adoptive parent is the thing though.

I think it's much easier to go through life with the belief that life is a gift, otherwise it is pretty self-fulfilling, and since that's really all perspective, and life just is ... (of course if one is in chronic intense physical pain at that point, one's life can't be spun as some gift at that point likely, I'm not going to deny actual physical reality here, chronic intense pain and life may by all measures become not worth living).

[LDAHL]

This is an interesting article. I have felt similarly since I was a teenager.

"Adherents view life not as a gift and a miracle, but a harm and an imposition. And their notion that having children may be a bad idea seems to be gaining mainstream popularity."

Here is the link:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/14/anti-natalists-childfree-population-climate-change


As far as our species is concerned, this seems to be an issue that pretty much solves itself over time. The future belongs to the optimists who aren’t so frightened of what’s coming that they see non-existence as a preferable alternative.

I’m firmly in the gift camp, even though it’s not exactly what I might have bought for myself. I wouldn’t have traded the last several decades for oblivion even though I have been bruised and battered from time to time.

[oldhat]

I'm on the fence on this. My experience has been that life consists mostly of suffering with rare, fleeting episodes of joy. But I don't wish I'd never been born.

There's a Stephen Sondheim song, "Sorry-Grateful." (https://genius.com/Stephen-sondheim-sorry-grateful-lyrics) The context is one character asking another if he's sorry he got married, but the title pretty well sums up my attitude toward life.

Or, as Woody Allen said, "Life is filled with misery, suffering and loneliness--and it's all over much too soon."

[catherine]

I think it's much easier to go through life with the belief that life is a gift, otherwise it is pretty self-fulfilling,

I'm in the gift camp. There are two ways to see it:

Evolutionary: Nature gave us some inbred motivations for staying alive in order to propagate. If humans all decided to go anti-natalist, we would die out as a species, obviously. So it feels more natural in a sense to believe that our biological fulfillment is in progeny. But I also agree with ANM that it's so much more complex than that with legitimate pain and suffering that would lead one to wishing they'd never been born.

I remember Paul Erlich's book, and I obviously have not bought into zero population growth myself, having 4 kids, but I'll just assign two of mine to rosa or IL or UL and call it net neutral growth :).

My permaculture teacher considers the environmentalists who feel humans are a scourge and we should reduce our population to curb the ruination of the planet to be a red herring for the real issue of human over-consumption. I kind of agree with that. If we all could reduce our ecological footprint to 0, the population would sustain itself.

Spiritual: Is suffering really bad in itself? Most religious traditions see suffering as part of life and as sacred as any joy we could experience, if approached appropriately. Suffering can be transformative and redemptive. One of my favorite first lines in a book is from The Road Less Traveled: Life is difficult. Yeah, let's just lay it on the table and go on from there. First Noble Truth: Life is suffering. Can can you accept suffering and use it? Then you are likely to NOT be an anti-natalist.

The fact that we can feel joy arising is the gift of life to me.

[LDAHL]

I think a person can wish they were never born and, at the same time, not actively want to commit suicide.

But if life is truly a painful imposition, why come down on the affirmative side of Hamlet’s question? Is it simply fear of the transition process from living to dead? Concern for those left behind? Further, if living is such a miserable state of being, is killing another person (born or unborn or merely hypothetical) a potentially positive and moral act?

[iris lilies]

I think a person can wish they were never born and, at the same time, not actively want to commit suicide.
Yes, I agree with that somewhat.

I find some comfort in the null of non existence. If I had never been born, I guess that would be OK because I wouldn’t know it, would I? But since I am here there is enough downright joy as well as daily contentment and happiness that I appreciate the life I have.

My life is a scientific oddity, a “gift” from the universe if you will because it is not easy to propel a few cells into a fully grown human being, especially one that lasts 65 years as I have. We can take human life for granted but there are so many medical missteps along the way of creating humans – I mean all the ones that Do not start as viable sperm or egg,die in utero, die when coming through the birth canal, die at birth and are born with killing diseases, etc—that it is miraculous we are here.

[ApatheticNoMore]

My permaculture teacher considers the environmentalists who feel humans are a scourge and we should reduce our population to curb the ruination of the planet to be a red herring for the real issue of human over-consumption. I kind of agree with that. If we all could reduce our ecological footprint to 0, the population would sustain itself.

This is the kind of saying like if my grandmother had a @#$# she'd be my grandfather as I see it. There is no way for a population of 7 billion plus to reduce it's ecological footprint to zero. It isn't possible for a population of this size to all be hunter gatherers, they require a certain amount of viable acerage per person and the population is too big to allow that acerage per person. You can't make a population of 7+ billion all hunter gatherers. But agricultural societies have ecological impact and they require a certain amount of acerage per person to grow food and some for dwellings. That's acerage that can't be used for native habitats etc., the greater the population the less acerage can be left for other species. Technological society (acerage for what, solar panels?) is a whole other thing.


Spiritual: Is suffering really bad in itself? Most religious traditions see suffering as part of life and as sacred as any joy we could experience, if approached appropriately. Suffering can be transformative and redemptive. One of my favorite first lines in a book is from The Road Less Traveled: Life is difficult. Yeah, let's just lay it on the table and go on from there. First Noble Truth: Life is suffering. Can can you accept suffering and use it? Then you are likely to NOT be an anti-natalist.

I honestly wonder if people who say this have ever really experienced such suffering? I'm going to say no, and that they talk about what they have never experienced, and also that they frankly lack empathy to conceive of that which they haven't experienced. Suffering can be hopeless and meaningless, suffering from which one can no more derive meaning than one can get water from a stone just because one happens to be thirsty. One can say of such suffering that it may be temporary, and that is often the case, but one can't say it's transformative or redemptive. Suffering can be utterly completely meaningless. People think that no greater suffering exists than that which they may have experienced, but how would they know?

I guess there is a pretty good book that is a way of thinking about this is called "The Culture of Pain" by David Morris (never mind the title it's not a social critique, but about how philosophy approaches pain). It talks about a lot of philosophies of pain from stocism to sadism, but the more interesting stuff is probably about chronic often undiagnosable physical pain, how much chronic physical pain is undiagnosable (you can't just say "oh it's arthritis" etc. because unlike say arthritis noone really knows what is causing it) and he ruminates about how it alienates, how chronic pain is another world, another country, where communication breaks down, that you can't explain to people who don't experience it. I don't suffer from it, so mine is largely an outsider perspective looking in when I read this, I don't *know* (except when I am suffering physically or psychologically and even physically I have had chronic symptoms but never of extreme pain).

[iris lilies]

ANM, I agree that suffering can be meaningless. It can also be transformative. Should it be transformative? Not really, it is what it is.

[catherine]

I honestly wonder if people who say this have ever really experienced such suffering? I'm going to say no, and that they talk about what they have never experienced, and also that they frankly lack empathy to conceive of that which they haven't experienced. Suffering can be hopeless and meaningless, suffering from which one can no more derive meaning than one can get water from a stone just because one happens to be thirsty. One can say of such suffering that it may be temporary, and that is often the case, but one can't say it's transformative or redemptive. Suffering can be utterly completely meaningless. People think that no greater suffering exists than that which they may have experienced, but how would they know?



How do you quantify pain and suffering? I read once that suffering is like gas in a room. It's not like if you haven't suffered much there's a little pile of baggage in the corner, whereas if you've suffered a lot there's a lot of baggage filling up the space... it's a gas that infiltrates everywhere. I am certainly not saying that one person's bee sting is the same as another person's childhood abuse, but it points to the fact that suffering is impossible to "grade." And it speaks to how it is processed by the sufferer.

[rosarugosa]

I should mention that I am a consistently upbeat and cheerful person. Just because life sucks and then you die doesn't mean I'm going to let that ruin my good mood for today. :) But seriously, I am enjoying my life on any given day. I've already paid the price of admission and it is non-refundable, so I'm going to squeak as much joy out of this existence that I can (which is quite a bit actually). Still, if I step back and look at the bigger picture, I think the price of admission makes it a bad deal, the price being that once born, you will suffer and die and you will watch those you love suffer and die. Now if you are religious, you will probably have a much different take on all this, and will no doubt look forward to the cheerful reunion in the afterlife. I do not hold such beliefs. However, I am happy, I had a great childhood, and I have a really good life.

[ApatheticNoMore]

How do you quantify pain and suffering? I read once that suffering is like gas in a room. It's not like if you haven't suffered much there's a little pile of baggage in the corner, whereas if you've suffered a lot there's a lot of baggage filling up the space... it's a gas that infiltrates everywhere.

I don't know, if you really find suffering everywhere you might question if being born is worth it. But I really think there are strong childhood factors that figure in, if you were strongly programmed to have kids you have kids and it's programming, it's just what you were raised to do, that's all. If you were a kid who noone ever wanted (how many times was I told I ruined my parents lives growing up), or who found anti-natalism striking (my partner the child of an extremely bitter and very early divorce) maybe you don't etc..


I am certainly not saying that one person's bee sting is the same as another person's childhood abuse, but it points to the fact that suffering is impossible to "grade." And it speaks to how it is processed by the sufferer.

I don't think people always have some ability to process suffering however they want to though, sometimes they *might* have some ability is the most anyone can say. If it's impossible to grade, it speaks to *humility* in the face of pain, in my view. Humility rather than lecturing people on how they ought to process pain. Maybe they can learn from someone elses pain and how they dealt with it and there is no arrogance to merely sharing one's own experience of course, and maybe they can't.

It speaks to how it's processed, yes physical pain with no known cause often exists solely in the nervous system, it doesn't mean there is any psychological trick to eliminate it, there isn't really. Someday maybe they find a cure, shrug.

[catherine]

Now if you are religious, you will probably have a much different take on all this, and will no doubt look forward to the cheerful reunion in the afterlife.

First of all, I am "religious" in a certain sense, but I am extremely heaven-agonistic. I am more of the "heaven is here and now" mindset--taught to me by the Zen Buddhist Thich Nhat Hahn. But I'm open to any possibility.

Second, I actually remembered where I saw that "suffering is like gas" quote--it was from Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. He of all people has suffering street cred, so I stand by that point of view:


“To draw an analogy: a man's suffering is similar to the behavior of a gas. If a certain quantity of gas is pumped into an empty chamber, it will fill the chamber completely and evenly, no matter how big the chamber. Thus suffering completely fills the human soul and conscious mind, no matter whether the suffering is great or little. Therefore the "size" of human suffering is absolutely relative.”

[ApatheticNoMore]

Second, I actually remembered where I saw that "suffering is like gas" quote--it was from Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. He of all people has suffering street cred, so I stand by that point of view:

but he is NOT all people

[catherine]

but he is NOT all people

It's just his opinion about suffering--not just his own.

[pinkytoe]

None of us choose to be here (unless one believes in karma/new age beliefs); the bad/sad thing is when the circumstances into which one is born are not conducive to helping one have a satisfying life. I guess I am more in the camp of believing that our very existence is sort of miraculous. Just think of all your ancestors who survived long enough to produce the human that is uniquely you. The world is full of darkness and misery with glimmers of light and beauty. I remain in awe and fascinated by all of it.

[Geila]

Viktor Frankl also said this:

“On the average, only those prisoners could keep alive who, after years of trekking from camp to camp, had lost all scruples in their fight for existence; they were prepared to use every means, honest and otherwise, even brutal force, theft, and betrayal of their friends, in order to save themselves. We who have come back, by the aid of many lucky chances or miracles - whatever one may choose to call them - we know: the best of us did not return.”

And it's this quote that has resonated with me since I read it years ago

[razz]

I have to confess that I don't understand the view in the OP unless one is in utterly desperate circumstances. Otherwise, if one thinks in terms of "oh, poor me", life will reflect that.

It is not about 'me' at all, IMO, it is about how I can serve and utilize my life and skills to benefit others . I have a rescue puppy that is now safe and content, a friend who can safely vent when life gets in the way, a little boy with challenges that I mentor weekly, flowers that I grow and beautify a neighbourhood, paintings that I create that bring joy, car rides for those who are not as able to do so...
Add in gorgeous music, art like the Rubens exhibit at the Art Gallery of Ontario at present, Metopera HD productions, great theatre, - so much to enjoy.

[iris lilies]

I have to confess that I don't understand the view in the OP unless one is in utterly desperate circumstances. Otherwise, if one thinks in terms of "oh, poor me", life will reflect that.

It is not about 'me' at all, IMO, it is about how I can serve and utilize my life and skills to benefit others . I have a rescue puppy that is now safe and content, a friend who can safely vent when life gets in the way, a little boy with challenges that I mentor weekly, flowers that I grow and beautify a neighbourhood, paintings that I create that bring joy, car rides for those who are not as able to do so...
Add in gorgeous music, art like the Rubens exhibit at the Art Gallery of Ontario at present, Metopera HD productions, great theatre, - so much to enjoy.

On the contrary, I think my life IS completely about me. It’s my job as a living person to make the most of it. I get to define what “make the most of it” is, I get to define what is meaningful.

I think it is entirely reasonable to weigh the suffering vs. joy/contentment in your life ( the generic you) and come up with a negative number. In that case, if you arent up for suicide, you need to try harder to live a life that IS meaningful.
I think of Mother Teresa powering through her years of religious doubt. She probably wasn’t joyful about much of it in the dark days when she lost her faith.

[Geila]

I have to confess that I don't understand the view in the OP unless one is in utterly desperate circumstances. Otherwise, if one thinks in terms of "oh, poor me", life will reflect that.

It is not about 'me' at all, IMO, it is about how I can serve and utilize my life and skills to benefit others . I have a rescue puppy that is now safe and content, a friend who can safely vent when life gets in the way, a little boy with challenges that I mentor weekly, flowers that I grow and beautify a neighbourhood, paintings that I create that bring joy, car rides for those who are not as able to do so...
Add in gorgeous music, art like the Rubens exhibit at the Art Gallery of Ontario at present, Metopera HD productions, great theatre, - so much to enjoy.

Many people who have suffered, particularly long-term trauma and especially childhood trauma during developmental stages, lose the ability to experience the joy and contentment that you describe and are lucky enough to enjoy. Imagine living at the bottom of a dark well, where you are cut-off, and from which there is no escape.

It's easy enough to say that it's simply a choice, when you are able to make that choice. But when you can't make that choice, no matter how hard you try, it's a different thing altogether.

[iris lilies]

Many people who have suffered, particularly long-term trauma and especially childhood trauma during developmental stages, lose the ability to experience the joy and contentment that you describe and are lucky enough to enjoy. Imagine living at the bottom of a dark well, where you are cut-off, and from which there is no escape.

It's easy enough to say that it's simply a choice, when you are able to make that choice. But when you can't make that choice, no matter how hard you try, it's a different thing altogether.
Yes, I can see that for severe trauma and brain chemicals that influence thinking that way.

[JaneV2.0]

I'm happy to be here. My life has been mostly a waste of time and flesh, and I would rather have been born a bit later, but all in all, it hasn't been awful. I hope I remember all the mistakes I've made--and don't revisit them--if I get another go-round.

[Teacher Terry]

I have had a few friends lose children and although the suffering never goes away they are glad to be alive and glad that they had those children while they did. I have seen people struggle to live and want it with every fiber of their being. I think in general in this country it's a gift. In a very poor war torn country probably not so much.

[ToomuchStuff]

But if life is truly a painful imposition, why come down on the affirmative side of Hamlet’s question? Is it simply fear of the transition process from living to dead? Concern for those left behind? Further, if living is such a miserable state of being, is killing another person (born or unborn or merely hypothetical) a potentially positive and moral act?


Does it have to be just one reason?
Life can be a lot more complex then that.

I can wish I had never been born, based on things such as being told that I am here, because of rape and a failed abortion attempt, long before legal abortion, and how I shouldn't be here. (by some parts of family) Then told how much I remind them of criminal elements in the family, that they taught you the skills to kill if it ever came to it, yet those same skills, they then compare you to what they taught you to fear. I see no reason to have kids that your going to horsewhip the evil out of them, yet still tell them they will always be evil? I only saw the need for self removal, if I ever actually became the danger, that family has told me I would be. That wouldn't even deal with the fact most suicides, tend to leave stuff that the family will have to deal with, such as clean up, etc (emotional scars on them, certainly, there are those that are innocent in this)

[catherine]

I think IL said it.. when it comes to life, it is what it is. It kind of gets to my avatar: "This is it." Now that I think about it, that's exactly how I look at life in 3 words. That's why I chose that saying.

[happystuff]

Finally able to get back to this and all the comments are so interesting and thought-provoking. I think, personally, I'm in the camp of "Life is change". I change, my situation changes, people around me change, the world changes. I have been fortunate enough to adapt and adjust as best I can for myself to keep living this life.

pinkytoe said above, "The world is full of darkness and misery with glimmers of light and beauty. I remain in awe and fascinated by all of it."

While I don't totally disagree with this, I prefer to try to keep the perspective of, "The world is full of light and beauty with glimmers of darkness and misery." I, too, remain in awe and am fascinated by all of it.

[JaneV2.0]

That fewer people are reproducing seems like good news, but society will have to deal with the fallout from that until AI obviates the need for workers. I certainly can't get all hand-wringy about the prospect of fewer people, not that I'll be here to experience such (or will I?)

I've known a few people whose default setting is that the world is an irredeemably terrible place. I try not to spend too much time around habitual crepe-hangers, or even the less dramatic pessimists, because I don't want to be dragged into that world. Depression or not, I'd rather spend my time in the light.

[LDAHL]

Does it have to be just one reason?
Life can be a lot more complex then that.


It can. Spite or defiance can be perfectly legitimate if not particularly pleasant reasons to go on living.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I think IL said it.. when it comes to life, it is what it is. It kind of gets to my avatar: "This is it." Now that I think about it, that's exactly how I look at life in 3 words. That's why I chose that saying.

That's what I think, only I can't see why that's not perfectly compatible with not having kids including for anti-natalists reasons among others (such belief one would be a bad parent etc.)

[JaneV2.0]

I've never understood pressuring others to have children. I would think the best-case scenario would be that every child born was very much wanted by their parents. The world would certainly be a less fraught place if this were so.

[Teacher Terry]

Jane, I totally agree. Some people want to be grandparents and pressure their kids. It’s so wrong.

[happystuff]

I've never understood pressuring others to have children. I would think the best-case scenario would be that every child born was very much wanted by their parents. The world would certainly be a less fraught place if this were so.

I never could understand why it was anyone else's business who had children and who didn't, and why or why not.

Being an adoptive parent, I would change your best-case scenario just a little - that every child born was very much wanted - be that by birth parents or not.

[catherine]

I don't want to stay stuck on suffering, because ANM and Geila are right.. suffering ruins lives and creates despair and hopelessness--the same hopelessness that leads people to believe people shouldn't even be born. I don't want to minimize that horrible experience, which is real.

But it so happens that I've been watching Finding Joe (http://findingjoethemovie.com), about Joseph Campbell. He was so amazing at overlaying the "hero's journey" mythology over all of our lives.

One of the speakers in the films said this:

"I think it's tricky to afford a proof in our life. The proofs exist in our ability to transcend the worst thing that has happened to us. My proof is I was abused as a little boy. It was the worst thing ever. It went on for a very long time. I was very young. And, uh, I'm who I am because of that. I had to accept that, and acknowledge that, and forgive, and all the terrible things that come with that, I had to tell my parents and all that that comes from that....but from that most difficult thing came a kind of understanding. I get high marks on compassion. I wouldn't wish it on anybody, but it's part of what made me me. So the truth is, it's not what happens to us, it's what we do with it."

"No death, no life. No death, no transformation."
"You will learn to keep dying."

It's such a great movie, if you like Joseph Campbell.

"Follow your biiss."