Sierra Club: To Have or Not to Have Children in the Age of Climate Change

[Ultralight]

I think that this is an interesting topic. Having kids is one of the things on the "don't do list" if you want to stop or reverse climate change.

Here is the link:
https://www.sierraclub.org/sierra/2019-6-november-december/feature/have-or-not-have-children-age-climate-change

[ApatheticNoMore]

I think it's irrelevant, it really has nothing to do with why you don't want kids. And any woman you meet who doesn't want kids because climate change is probably not going to be into a lot of other things either including international travel because climate change. I mean denying oneself is denying oneself.

Of course if they never wanted kids anyway having f all to do with climate change which they don't spend much time brooding about, that's another story.

[ToomuchStuff]

So is the link a save the planet, go kill yourself thing?

[Yppej]

Maybe international travellers could go to Ebola hot spots and spread germs that will wipe people out and help save the planet. Or maybe they could go to sex tourism destinations in southeast Asia and catch AIDS and spread that.

ETA: There's also the idea in Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal.

[Rogar]

Seemed like a reasonable article to me. Not so much about not having kids, but the thought process involved related to climate change. I suspect it is something a lot of the younger generations are thinking about.

[happystuff]

Interesting article. Kudos to the author for sharing herself and her personal thoughts on such a delicate - and personal - topic.

[Ultralight]

Maybe international travellers could go to Ebola hot spots and spread germs that will wipe people out and help save the planet. Or maybe they could go to sex tourism destinations in southeast Asia and catch AIDS and spread that.

ETA: There's also the idea in Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal.

This is one of my better Yppej memes.

3024

[JaneV2.0]

I know several young people who don't seem in any hurry to reproduce, or have declared themselves opposed to having children, and none of them have cited climate change. I think personal freedom and economics are more likely reasons; working full time while juggling child care is a daunting task, and the payoffs of parenthood are dicey.

[Ultralight]

I think it's irrelevant, it really has nothing to do with why you don't want kids. And any woman you meet who doesn't want kids because climate change is probably not going to be into a lot of other things either including international travel because climate change. I mean denying oneself is denying oneself.

Of course if they never wanted kids anyway having f all to do with climate change which they don't spend much time brooding about, that's another story.

I don't think most people approach their lifestyle choices regarding climate change as an all or none methodology.

For instance, a person may own a camper van and only take road trips for travel. And their reasoning may be because it is less costly to the planet (even though it is still costly compared to walking or biking).

One of the reasons I don't want kids -- and this has been the case since I was young and first thought about it -- is overpopulation. My parents talked to me about overpopulation when I was VERY young, and this made sense.

But I also think it is worth noting that climate change could be just one factor in a person's choice not to have kids. It could be one component in a pros and cons list.

Either way, it is an interesting idea.

Though I think that as the climate crisis worsens, those that choose not to have kids will not cite climate change as their reason, but things related to climate change, such as economic woes, societal instability, the world going to hell in a hand basket.

[Alan]

This is one of my better Yppej memes.

3024
Yes, but they show a trollish creativity rather than a witty one. Don't be a troll UL, we don't like trolls.

[iris lilies]

Maybe international travellers could go to Ebola hot spots and spread germs that will wipe people out and help save the planet. Or maybe they could go to sex tourism destinations in southeast Asia and catch AIDS and spread that.

ETA: There's also the idea in Jonathan Swift's A Modest Proposal.

boring.


Edited to add
ha, I posted same time Alan did, didn’t know that he posted.

[Ultralight]

Yes, but they show a trollish creativity rather than a witty one. Don't be a troll UL, we don't like trolls.

You too, Alan, our forum's stern institutionalist, I appreciate the way you so evenhandedly dole out critiques of others. Thanks for the input! Always helpful!

[ApatheticNoMore]

The article was somewhat interesting, although her description of how she would live life without kids made me think: "please, let me kill myself now". You will spend all your time fighting for political change. ugh please let me kill myself. I hate politics so much, I feel I have a moral duty to try to do stuff, but it's like thinking I have a moral duty to drink frog blood every breakfast, or to keep two dozen pet rats and 10 pet cockaroaches, and about as appealing ... No wonder having kids looks way better and she decided to go with it. The art sounded okish though.

[Teacher Terry]

I doubt climate change is most people’s motivation for why they don’t want children.

[iris lilies]

I doubt climate change is most people’s motivation for why they don’t want children.
Yep, it had nothing to do with why I didnt have children. I just didnt want any.

[Teacher Terry]

When my youngest son was 10 he announced that I had overpopulated the world, etc. I said to him well think about who wouldn’t be here lecturing me:)). I always knew I wanted kids and my sister was the opposite. My oldest son never wanted any. I am glad that people are putting thought into the decision as every child should be wanted.

[Rogar]

I doubt climate change is most people’s motivation for why they don’t want children.

”Most people” do not take climate change serious enough to make any significant lifestyle changes.

[ApatheticNoMore]

”Most people” do not take climate change serious enough to make any significant lifestyle changes.

there are lifestyle changes and there is changing the ENTIRE of what one thought one's life would be. And that's what is hard and frankly I think extremely rare.

I don't mean people who never wanted kids for a dozen other reasons otherwise, they never saw the course of their life consisting of raising kids particularly, at most they might have thought "well maybe ...", but I mean those who did. Some of them are ok maybe with being aunts or uncles but um that implies other family members ARE having kids! If more people would consider only having one kid that's population control too though.

[razz]

Climate change is just one reason to consider when examining having or not children. She appears to be very thoughtful in the article but having the baby is the easiest part. It is the rest of the story raising the child to be a confident healthy adult that is the challenge.

So many children are negatively impacted by drug and alcohol abuse that this alone will be a factor in available for adoption numbers. EG - fetal-alcohol children can be very challenging requiring enormous time and $$$.

Are potential parents prepared to avoid drugs to protect the unborn and remain committed to the child for the first 20 years?

[Rogar]

The next generations are going to have shape policy, study the sciences, and lead or just be solid responsible citizens, and someone is going to have to do it. I'd far rather have a responsible concerned person like the writer as a parent rather than someone who is not in the same position. Matter of fact my hope would be for her or similar people to have a child or two for those reasons. I suppose you never know how kids will turn out, but there are some things that shape the odds one way or another.

I don't have children, partly by chance and partly by choice so am somewhat unqualified on certain matters.

[Ultralight]

”Most people” do not take climate change serious enough to make any significant lifestyle changes.

I wish that they did though. I know the climate crisis informs in big ways the choices I make. Though I am no Rob Greenfield or Danial Suelo.

[Gardnr]

I doubt climate change is most people’s motivation for why they don’t want children.

When we were dating at 17 (and knew we'd end up married), hubby stated he never wanted children. End of discussion. Didn't matter why-he didn't want them. Since climate wasn't much of a concern back then, I seriously doubt that was his inner rationale.

[Teacher Terry]

Most people have always known if they don’t want kids. Did you feel the same? Sometimes people that don’t want kids have trouble finding a suitable partner.

[Gardnr]

Most people have always known if they don’t want kids. Did you feel the same? Sometimes people that don’t want kids have trouble finding a suitable partner.

I always thought I'd have a bunch of kids like Mom did. When he said that, I decided I really loved and wanted him so career it was for me. I never looked back to analyze or evaluate. By the time I was 1 year in, I knew it was right. I loved my career and knew I couldn't be the fulltime Mom that mine was-which would have made me crazy. The only angst I had, was all the people telling me I needed to have kids. "You have to do it, you don't know what you're missing". "Do it. He won't leave you". We were married 28y the last time I was asked when we were having kids........

We're 58, married 39y. Nothing is missing from our life.

[iris lilies]

I am 65 years old and I did not have an experience of everyone telling me I had to have children. I think there might of been an inquiry or two especially on DH’s side because my own side of the family knew my position pretty early on. But a general inquiry for talking about having kids doesn’t make it pressure. It makes a conversation.

[Teacher Terry]

Thanks for sharing G. My sister is 73 and knew when young she didn’t want kids and probably didn’t want to get married. By her 30’s she quit dating. People said many cruel things and made untrue assumptions. She was beautiful so it certainly wasn’t from a lack of willing potential partners. I am glad things are changing in this regard.

[Gardnr]

I am 65 years old and I did not have an experience of everyone telling me I had to have children. I think there might of been an inquiry or two especially on DH’s side because my own side of the family knew my position pretty early on. But a general inquiry for talking about having kids doesn’t make it pressure. It makes a conversation.

Ha! We had no gentle inquiries. We had instructive/directive statements as I have relayed above.

[Teacher Terry]

People should keep their mouths shut because what if the couple is struggling with infertility.

[Gardnr]

People should keep their mouths shut because what if the couple is struggling with infertility.

Right?

Met a Mormon 1st day of Family Nursing Class. "Do you have kids?" No. "I'm sorry". We don't want kids. "Well, then you are NOT a family".

Became quite an argument in class. To say I was pissed is putting it mildy. We're a family if we can't have kids but not if we choose? WTF.

[Teacher Terry]

G, that’s terrible! It’s amazing that you got married so young and still happy. That’s a real accomplishment. Being with the right person makes all the difference in life. Now that we are getting older I do think about how different my life would be if my husband died before me. I have lots of friends and kids but much of my life revolves around all the things we do together. We travel perfectly together and even with good friends being great travel buddies doesn’t always happen. The last 2 years my husband has went to visit his son for 2 weeks each which I am glad he did but it really hit home when he has done this.

[Rogar]

There are a lot of elderly mothers who are big into becoming grandmothers and revisiting the child rearing experience. There were some expectations in my family along those lines.

[sweetana3]

We got married at about 19 and 20 (married between our two birthdays). Never really wanted kids and talked about it for awhile. Hubby did not want me to stay on BC so he had the issue taken care of. Never had any issues with not having kids except that we have far fewer worries. Strange thing is none of my brothers had kids either and my husband is an only child so both lines stop with our generation. Not an issue with any of us either. WE are retired now.

Climate change and population concerns never had anything to do with our decision. I really think having kids is far to intimate and personal a decision to be determined by something so general. Note: not to start an argement since there are always the ones at the end of the spectrum that will use anything to base a decision on.

[ApatheticNoMore]

My partner and I never wanted kids in decent parts because we had painful childhoods, we didn't like BEING kids, so that tends to not make one want to inflict eh childhood on anyone else and to come to this fairly early on - all before legal adulthood. I always got the feeling my own parents lives would have been so much happier without kids, and yes, sometimes this was verbalized, and I took it seriously, they told us how kids ruin your life. There are other reasons as well. But pretty much childhood was hell, hell is for children. 100% bad? Sheesh little is 100%, I'd be a psychotic in a ward, a runnaway on the streets, in prison, if it had been 100% bad, oh I'm a pretty determined person somtimes, but 100% bad noone survives that. But no, but bad enough to more than accentuate any tendencies to be pretty dark very early on. Oh I have a sibling living with my mom on permanent drug maintenance for opiates and if not for that they'd probably be dead from addiction by now. My bf is an only child. Not a lot of kids needless to say.

The thing about climate change is *everything* pretty much contributes to climate change. So one can decide what they can take and leave and to some extent I very well do based on what is most basic (commuting to work and other localish driving (hey I don't mean road trips, seldom do that) is that kind of basic to me, I know it's bad, but ..). But I don't always think having kids is on everyone's optional list either. And as for what the kids will experience, I think if people think about it at all, they make the bet that even if the kids just have 20, 30, 40 years before they are killed prematurely (prematurely at least by current average lifespans) by climate change say, that it's worthwhile. Noone lives forever.

[LDAHL]

I think there have always been reasons to believe the future will be bleaker than the present, especially for generations blessed by history with high relative levels of comfort and security. It’s probably a good thing that people so intimidated not raise children, which is a bit of a gamble and hardship even at the best of times.

[JaneV2.0]

My partner and I never wanted kids in decent parts because we had painful childhoods, we didn't like BEING kids, so that tends to not make one want to inflict eh childhood on anyone else and to come to this fairly early on - all before legal adulthood. I always got the feeling my own parents lives would have been so much happier without kids, and yes, sometimes this was verbalized, and I took it seriously, they told us how kids ruin your life. There are other reasons as well. But pretty much childhood was hell, hell is for children. 100% bad? Sheesh little is 100%, I'd be a psychotic in a ward, a runnaway on the streets, in prison, if it had been 100% bad, oh I'm a pretty determined person somtimes, but 100% bad noone survives that. But no, but bad enough to more than accentuate any tendencies to be pretty dark very early on. Oh I have a sibling living with my mom on permanent drug maintenance for opiates and if not for that they'd probably be dead from addiction by now. My bf is an only child. Not a lot of kids needless to say...

Your history resonated strongly with me; it was very similar to mine. I've long thought reincarnation would be fine if I could just skip the childhood part. I had far from a horrible childhood, but I, too, got the distinct impression there was little pleasurable about parenthood.

[LDAHL]

I, too, got the distinct impression there was little pleasurable about parenthood.

In my experience, the pleasures of parenthood more resemble the satisfaction that comes from accomplishing a difficult task than anything else. I think you need a certain sort of character and outlook to get the most out of it.

If comfort is the priority, parenthood doesn’t offer much, except perhaps fairly late in life; but there really is no guarantee of that. If someone is after unconditional love, they would be better advised to get a dog than raise a child. You can pretty much toss certainty out the window as well.

It’s like fly fishing in that it can be difficult and expensive and uncomfortable, but it offers certain moments unobtainable in any other way. And those moments can be so sublime as to dispel any thought that living isn’t worth the trouble.

[pinkytoe]

Hmmm...I seem to recall a similar mindset when I was young. It was not cool to over-populate and having one or none was best. Thus, I do get aggravated when I see so many moms at the park these days with four or more. I do think that is irresponsible in these times. I also have met quite a few couples who have decided that multiple dogs are their children. I liked the author's comment from her mom about so much "navel-gazing" as one can certainly overthink things. I don't regret having one child. It has been a life experience I am glad I experienced and I know she is very glad to be here.

[razz]

In my experience, the pleasures of parenthood more resemble the satisfaction that comes from accomplishing a difficult task than anything else. I think you need a certain sort of character and outlook to get the most out of it.

If comfort is the priority, parenthood doesn’t offer much, except perhaps fairly late in life; but there really is no guarantee of that. If someone is after unconditional love, they would be better advised to get a dog than raise a child. You can pretty much toss certainty out the window as well.

It’s like fly fishing in that it can be difficult and expensive and uncomfortable, but it offers certain moments unobtainable in any other way. And those moments can be so sublime as to dispel any thought that living isn’t worth the trouble.

This is stating the truth in a very profound manner.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I've never thought one should have kids in order to make one's life worth living, always struck me as not a good reason to have kids. Too much of a burden on the kid if nothing else.

As for whether it's too uncomfortable or not, that's a women's decision and always will be, never have I or will I believe that men bear the ultimate responsibility for taking care of a kid when it's born (heck they don't even bear the kid and that matters), although in some non-typical cases they end up raising them alone and good for them then.

[Teacher Terry]

I had a great childhood with loving parents and very involved grandparents that I adored. We were wanted and so were my kids. I loved parenting until the youngest 2 were teenagers. The first was a breeze the other 2 awful. We wanted 3 so had them. There were 2 little girls on my social work caseload that we would have adopted when the parents rights were terminated but grandma was young and a stable, loving person so she took the girls.

[LDAHL]

I've never thought one should have kids in order to make one's life worth living, always struck me as not a good reason to have kids. Too much of a burden on the kid if nothing else.


It’s not the sole reason anymore than winning first place is the sole reason for entering a race. And I would contend that if you don’t get some level of fulfillment from it you probably shouldn’t do it.

[Alan]

We have one child, a daughter, who is now 41 years old. Other than a period of time, roughly 14 years of age to 18 years of age, she's been an absolute treasure, and her two children have been the greatest blessing I could ever hope to receive. I think that when people like me ask people like some of you about your child rearing plans, we're just hoping to share some of the joy with you.

[JaneV2.0]

Most of us here are far beyond parenting age, it seems, but I still hold that pressuring people to reproduce is rarely a Good Thing.

[Ultralight]

A pessimist is what the optimist calls a realist.

[ApatheticNoMore]

If people had kids when half of the kids died in childbirth and they did, AND when massive quantities of women died in childbirth as well (!), I don't expect them to stop because of what might happen to a kid down the road with climate change. And no way any kid born now is going to live an average lifespan and not be badly effected.

But we have better birth control? Well yes (most with side effects, but more options etc.). However women have always availed themselves of abortions etc. it seems to me, even when it was herbs, they had some effectiveness (maybe not modern levels but nontheless).

[LDAHL]

A pessimist is what the optimist calls a realist.

“A pessimist is a man who thinks everybody is as nasty as himself, and hates them for it.”
- George Bernard Shaw

[catherine]

I agree with ANM: with all the troubles of the world all throughout history, why is climate change the non-starter for bringing children into the world? One of those children may be the one or two that solve the climate dilemma.

And UL, I'm an optimist, and a pessimist is not a realist.

[Ultralight]

“A pessimist is a man who thinks everybody is as nasty as himself, and hates them for it.”
- George Bernard Shaw

George was such an optimist!

[Ultralight]

I agree with ANM: with all the troubles of the world all throughout history, why is climate change the non-starter for bringing children into the world? One of those children may be the one or two that solve the climate dilemma.



Should we outlaw abortion then, as one of those embryos could grow into a fetus and then eventually be born a baby who might grow up to solve the climate crisis? Heck, maybe we should outlaw birth control and condoms for the same reasons?

This is actually what the nuns told me in CCD when I was a kid, but they used curing cancer as the reason, not solving the climate crisis.

[catherine]

This is actually what the nuns told me in CCD when I was a kid, but they used curing cancer as the reason, not solving the climate crisis.


Hmm, maybe that was an argument I picked up from the nuns in Catholic school and I subconsciously used it here, but it certainly doesn't mean we try to increase population to win the Einstein/Messiah jackpot for the next genius to cure the world's ills. It's just an argument against assuming the world is too bad to subject a human being to. My parents may have believed the same thing, but I don't think the world is that bad, and I'm glad I'm here. I'm glad my children are here. I'm glad my grandchildren are here, although I'm less certain my grandchildren's generation will have a healthy planet to live in. At the same time, I feel they are smarter about and more aware of climate issues than my generation, so I remain hopeful.

[Rogar]

I agree with ANM: with all the troubles of the world all throughout history, why is climate change the non-starter for bringing children into the world? One of those children may be the one or two that solve the climate dilemma.

Part of the rationale behind limiting children is related to population growth and the fact that each additional person will be a source greenhouse gasses through their lifetime. So it's not so much bringing kids into a troubled world, but that it contributes to the problem. Not that I totally buy into that. There's always adoption.

[LDAHL]

...so I remain hopeful.

I think that if hope isn’t one of your default settings you probably shouldn’t have kids.

Ultimately everyone will make their own choice and let Darwin keep score.

[JaneV2.0]

If my family is any indicator, our birthrate is plummeting anyway. My grandmother (a devout Catholic) had five children and seventeen grandchildren. My mother had one grandchild. Among the five female cousins, we produced exactly four offspring--only because one of us was an overachiever. :D Of my friends' children, none have reproduced yet.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I think that if hope isn’t one of your default settings you probably shouldn’t have kids.

Ultimately everyone will make their own choice and let Darwin keep score.

evolution didn't start today, if pessimism didn't have some evolutionary value, it wouldn't be so deeply wired in the human nervous system, but it actually is (not just some people's either. There are a lot of biases that way that are UNIVERSAL in how people think (I know it goes against slicing and dicing everything into me/them to say anything is universal and not just a wretched property of the others). But sure maybe some people are more so than others, and this as well probably had evolutionary uses. Heck if those more alarmed by climate change etc. ran the world 30 years ago ... there would be a lot more REALISTIC hope now!).

[LDAHL]

evolution didn't start today, if pessimism didn't have some evolutionary value, it wouldn't be so deeply wired in the human nervous system, but it actually is (not just some people's either, there are a lot of biases that way that are universal. But some people are more so than others and probably had evolutionary uses. Heck if those more alarmed by climate change etc. ran the world 30 years ago ... there would be a lot more hope now).

I see pessimism as one of those luxuries indulged in by the comfortable. Most of our history as a species has been a struggle for survival that allowed little scope for inessential cultural artifacts like pessimism.

[iris lilies]

There is a high level of non-reproduction amoung my cousin group, REALLY high when I think about it. i mean, the group of cousins I hung out with. Let me count:

S,S, T, L, P, B, M

J has one child.

my brother and I have 0.

so out of 10 in our cousin social group there is one offspring.

My older cousins had children but they were not in my friend group. One of these was busy being an alcoholic, so it is a good thing he did not reproduce, but everyone else is whole and hearty. One of the women wanted children but couldnt have them and didn't have the $ to pursue medical means.

DH’s family reproduces to cover us, tho.

[Teacher Terry]

Roger, there are not enough kids in the states for everyone that would like to adopt because people want babies not teens.

[Rogar]

I did not know that. I imagine adopting internationally has it’s own barriers,too.

[Teacher Terry]

Some countries have stopped international adoptions and it’s expensive. Plus sometimes it involves spending a significant amount of time in their country so you have to be able to be off work. Lots of barriers.

[Ultralight]

“A pessimist is a man who thinks everybody is as nasty as himself, and hates them for it.”
- George Bernard Shaw

The thing that irks me about George's statement is his assumption that pessimists/realists are nasty and hateful. I know a lot of pessimists/realists. They don't get their kicks watching the world burn.
To the contrary they are often activists trying to put the fires out or contain them or treat the burns.

[Ultralight]

We have one child, a daughter, who is now 41 years old. Other than a period of time, roughly 14 years of age to 18 years of age, she's been an absolute treasure, and her two children have been the greatest blessing I could ever hope to receive. I think that when people like me ask people like some of you about your child rearing plans, we're just hoping to share some of the joy with you.

Probably. And I don't even mind when people "bingo" me.

But I don't like when folks get offended when I say I don't want kids.

[catherine]

But I don't like when folks get offended when I say I don't want kids.

I don't get offended by people not wanting to have children at all! Makes me feel less guilty for doubling my/DH's replacement rate.

Raising kids isn't for everyone, that's for sure.

[Ultralight]

I see pessimism as one of those luxuries indulged in by the comfortable. Most of our history as a species has been a struggle for survival that allowed little scope for inessential cultural artifacts like pessimism.

Do you think that pessimism and optimism can be based on the best evidence rather than on someone's gut feeling?

For instance, should someone with cancer of the everything remain optimistic? Or should they be realistic/pessimistic?

When it comes to the climate crisis I am a pessimist/realist because of the evidence. When it comes to lunch at Chipotle tomorrow being good, I am an optimist/realist, because of the evidence.

See how this works?

[Ultralight]

Some countries have stopped internally adoptions and it’s expensive.

Having kids biologically is also rather expensive.

[ApatheticNoMore]

To the contrary they are often activists trying to put the fires out or contain them or treat the burns.

yes meanwhile while others let Darwin sort it out, some just fight for the chance that there might be a remotely non-terrible future for anyone who happens to be born now or anytime recently (whatever recently means in this context)

Honestly though George Bernard Shaw, are we really talking the opinions of a late 19th century, early 20th century Fabian socialist, as some kind of take on climate change? Yea I was raised seeing such plays, but really relevance ..

[happystuff]

Re: adoption - there are a number of ways to and types of adoption. It's so much more complex than simply saying "it's expensive" or "everyone just wants babies", etc. There are also way more people involved in building a family by adoption than by birth. It's not for everyone.

[catherine]

Do you think that pessimism and optimism can be based on the best evidence rather than on someone's gut feeling?

For instance, should someone with cancer of the everything remain optimistic? Or should they be realistic/pessimistic?

When it comes to the climate crisis I am a pessimist/realist because of the evidence. When it comes to lunch at Chipotle tomorrow being good, I am an optimist/realist, because of the evidence.

See how this works?

This is the interesting thing. The duality are optimism an pessimism--two different attitudes about how you approach reality. Why is optimism the opposite of reality, but pessimism is reality? Why is pessimism more "real" than optimism. Pessimism an optimism are outlooks--by definition, not necessarily "reality." And frankly, what is reality? Everyone has their own subjective experience of what is "real." But you are claiming that because you are a pessimist you are a realist, which is not the case.

[Ultralight]

This is the interesting thing. The duality are optimism an pessimism--two different attitudes about how you approach reality. Why is optimism the opposite of reality, but pessimism is reality? Why is pessimism more "real" than optimism. Pessimism an optimism are outlooks--by definition, not necessarily "reality." And frankly, what is reality? Everyone has their own subjective experience of what is "real." But you are claiming that because you are a pessimist you are a realist, which is not the case.

I really think you should go back and read what I said again, the part you are commenting on.

I did not say that optimism is always the opposite of reality (though I sometimes joke about that!). See above where I said I was optimistic that my lunch at Chipotle will taste good because it always has in the past. Lots of evidence!

For me, pessimism or optimism are outlooks I take on based on the best evidence.
The climate crisis looks really bad -- this is the overwhelming scientific near-consensus. Like 2% of scientists are skeptical of the climate crisis. The other 98% are like: "We are booed, screwed, and tattooed! Here is my mountain of evidence!"
So I am pessimistic about it.

Everyone has their own reality? Really? Explain.

[Ultralight]

Re: adoption - there are a number of ways to and types of adoption. It's so much more complex than simply saying "it's expensive" or "everyone just wants babies", etc. There are also way more people involved in building a family by adoption than by birth. It's not for everyone.

When people are all like: "Adoption is expensive" or "You have to jump through so many hoops to adopt!"

I am like: If you have to worry about expense and hoop-jumping, then having kids is not for you. Raising children is all about expenses and hoop-jumping.

Queue up the haters to throw zings at me for this...

1...

2...

3...

Go!

[Tybee]

This is the interesting thing. The duality are optimism an pessimism--two different attitudes about how you approach reality. Why is optimism the opposite of reality, but pessimism is reality? Why is pessimism more "real" than optimism. Pessimism an optimism are outlooks--by definition, not necessarily "reality." And frankly, what is reality? Everyone has their own subjective experience of what is "real." But you are claiming that because you are a pessimist you are a realist, which is not the case.

I agree. In this example, "should someone with cancer of the everything remain optimistic? Or should they be realistic/pessimistic" there is a very limited and solipsistic viewpoint. My uncle who died at 23 when his plane was shot down over Normandy--he was part of something larger, and his courage and his actions helped to liberate the Concentration Camps, to free France from the Nazis. You could look at his sacrifice from a limited standpoint and say, see, you die at 23, it's a horrible thing, life--or you could say that his life has value, that all life has value, and that we are part of something larger.

As I get older, I am very drawn to people with a positive mindset, and I see every day how that makes life better for them and for those around them. People who choose to be optimists and be positive people have a magnetic effect; I truly believe they multiply good.

[LDAHL]

Do you think that pessimism and optimism can be based on the best evidence rather than on someone's gut feeling?

For instance, should someone with cancer of the everything remain optimistic? Or should they be realistic/pessimistic?



I think you’re conflating pessimism with realism. I think you can make a reasonable assessment of your chances and still pursue the more favorable outcome.

Cancer is bad. Extinction (at least as far as I’m concerned) is bad. Dying is bad. But even if it’s inevitable, which it ultimately is, I would prefer the more optimistic range of actions on the assumption that you aren’t truly beaten until you can’t fight anymore. Because sometimes you win. And even when you lose, the optimistic outlook makes for a less miserable life.

It’s a sort of a high school gym teacher philosophy. You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.

[razz]

I agree, Tybee. The optimist and/vs pessimist argument will not be resolved just discussed. Individuals are free to choose their perspective at all times and live with the consequences in their own lives.

Where there is confrontation is when one's perspective is promoted as the right one. Not a single one of us has that authority or right.

[happystuff]

When people are all like: "Adoption is expensive" or "You have to jump through so many hoops to adopt!"

I am like: If you have to worry about expense and hoop-jumping, then having kids is not for you. Raising children is all about expenses and hoop-jumping.

Queue up the haters to throw zings at me for this...

1...

2...

3...

Go!

I don't disagree that having kids and worrying often go hand-in-hand. That said, there are people who accept the worry, the expense, the hoop-jumping and everything else that goes along with raising kids - all the positives as well as all the negatives.

No hating, no zings. Kids are a "no" for you and that's fine!

I don't think anyone should have to defend their choice to not have kids any more than someone needs to defend their choice to have kids.

[Ultralight]

I think you’re conflating pessimism with realism. I think you can make a reasonable assessment of your chances and still pursue the more favorable outcome.

Cancer is bad. Extinction (at least as far as I’m concerned) is bad. Dying is bad. But even if it’s inevitable, which it ultimately is, I would prefer the more optimistic range of actions on the assumption that you aren’t truly beaten until you can’t fight anymore. Because sometimes you win. And even when you lose, the optimistic outlook makes for a less miserable life.

It’s a sort of a high school gym teacher philosophy. You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take.

I think you are conflating statistically positive likelihoods with optimism.

[catherine]

Everyone has their own reality? Really? Explain.

Well, we can use the subject of the OP: climate change. You and I believe it is "real" because we read the evidence of 95% of all the scientists, and it makes sense to us, and we believe it, so climate change is real. My husband's "reality" is that there are always shifts in climate over time and that it doesn't matter how many carbon emissions there are, the climate change issue is a case of "The sky is falling" propaganda. So whose "reality" is the right one? Of course you are going to say "my reality is the right one" but do you ABSOLUTELY KNOW THAT for a fact?

Byron Katie is great at challenging attitudes. If you're interested, read "Loving What Is"--it stands "reality" on its head.

[LDAHL]

I think you are conflating statistically positive likelihoods with optimism.

I don’t see it that way. I think that you can approach near-hopeless situations as if you could succeed. If you fail, you’ve lost nothing over a hand-wringing strategy. And you might win. If we all allowed ourselves to be paralyzed into inaction by the potential bad outcomes, we would never have left the trees.

Besides, I think a positive outlook makes for a happier life until your inevitable doom.

[catherine]

My belief is that 100% of us operate within the confines of "partial reality":

https://mythgyaan.com/blind-men-and-the-elephant/

[ApatheticNoMore]

Does optimism and pessimism even matter, even if one was near 100% that we were going off a climate cliff, some will take the position that having kids even if they only have x good years is worth it, and some won't (and yea assuming either even wanted kids to begin with). And what does optimism or pessimism really have anything to do with that? Nothing really, you can't get there from here.

Adoption is not a viable option as many people who want to adopt can't as it's too hard to find kids to adopt. Yes if one has reasons not to have biological kids and wants to raise kids and is well equipped to raise them, it's worth trying, but one may never find a kid to adopt.

[catherine]

Does optimism and pessimism even matter, even if one was near 100% that we were going off a climate cliff, some will take the position that having kids even if they only have x good years is worth it, and some won't (and yea assuming either even wanted kids to begin with). And what does optimism or pessimism really have anything to do with that? Nothing really, you can't get there from here.



Agreed.

[Teacher Terry]

I had a friend that was diagnosed with stage 4 ovarian cancer 20 years ago. After 10 hours of surgery the doctor said she had 6 months to live. My friend said I am too young to die and refused to believe it. She did chemo and went into remission. It came back 8 times and she had more surgeries and chemo then anyone I know. She was the happiest most upbeat person I have ever known. Her oncologist said he wished he knew what was different about her body chemistry that made it possible to save her when others died. I think her attitude and strong belief contributed.

[Alan]

http://wearehumanity.com/gifs/The%20Earth,%20the%20Moon%20and%20Mars%20talking%2 0about%20humans..gif?fbclid=IwAR39zBb4lLXw2uxKDlMl 4r5j8TfdLhQXumEUFSVsAPwE0sG1PwCpYhmn8C4

[happystuff]

http://wearehumanity.com/gifs/The%20Earth,%20the%20Moon%20and%20Mars%20talking%2 0about%20humans..gif?fbclid=IwAR39zBb4lLXw2uxKDlMl 4r5j8TfdLhQXumEUFSVsAPwE0sG1PwCpYhmn8C4

ROFLOL. Cute!

[happystuff]

Adoption is not a viable option as many people who want to adopt can't as it's too hard to find kids to adopt. Yes if one has reasons not to have biological kids and wants to raise kids and is well equipped to raise them, it's worth trying, but one may never find a kid to adopt.

Really not intending to be argumentative here, but "many people who want to adopt can't as it's too hard to find the kids THEY WANT to adopt.". There are plenty of kids that need and want homes, but adoption allows the adoptive parents to be more "selective" about the child they choose than they would be with a birth child. And that is their right! But there are children ready and waiting to be adopted. In my opinion, lack of children is not a viable excuse.

[Teacher Terry]

Happy, you give birth to a baby and not a teen. There’s a lack of babies and small children. Also kids can be very damaged by age 5 if abused enough. I had a 5 year old boy on my caseload that I would have been afraid to live with in the same house. He started a fire in the back seat of another social worker’s car. After that we always put him in the front seat. He was severely physically abused and when his mom crossed the street in front of my car he asked me to run her over. He was hurting his sisters that were older than him. Obviously not his fault but you never know what you are getting with a older child and agencies don’t always reveal everything.

[happystuff]

Happy, you give birth to a baby and not a teen. There’s a lack of babies and small children. Also kids can be very damaged by age 5 if abused enough. I had a 5 year old boy on my caseload that I would have been afraid to live with in the same house. He started a fire in the back seat of another social worker’s car. After that we always put him in the front seat. He was severely physically abused and when his mom crossed the street in front of my car he asked me to run her over. He was hurting his sisters that were older than him. Obviously not his fault but you never know what you are getting with a older child and agencies don’t always reveal everything.

And I'm not disagreeing with you here. A birth child staying in his/her birth family can be just as disruptive physically, mentally, emotionally; and can also be damaged by the age of 5.

You are actually proving my point that adoptive parents get to select, and if someone only wants "babies and small children", then they are eliminating some avenues towards adopting a child. If an adoptive parent wants a baby from the moment of birth, yes, it makes it much harder to find a child to adopt. But, again, there is no lack of children for adoption.

Pretty much every parent I have ever spoken with has said - in one way or another - there are no guarantees when it comes to kids - period. ;)


Edited to add: It is also extremely difficult (but not impossible) to adopt a baby soon after birth because of laws/rules/regulations at various levels concerning the relinquishment of birth parent rights. I know, going back some years, a birth parent had a set amount of time (3-6 months???) in which to change their mind and could choose to parent their birth child. So while prospective adoptive parents may obtain custody shortly after birth, the legal adoption won't take place until that period has passed. This period exists pretty much across the board with a lot of adoptions today - domestic, private, international, etc.

[catherine]

And I'm not disagreeing with you here. A birth child staying in his/her birth family can be just as disruptive physically, mentally, emotionally; and can also be damaged by the age of 5.

You are actually proving my point that adoptive parents get to select, and if someone only wants "babies and small children", then they are eliminating some avenues towards adopting a child. If an adoptive parent wants a baby from the moment of birth, yes, it makes it much harder to find a child to adopt. But, again, there is no lack of children for adoption.

Pretty much every parent I have ever spoken with has said - in one way or another - there are no guarantees when it comes to kids - period. ;)

So sad to hear how difficult it is for children who are already "damaged." It truly is better for some people to never become parents. Heartbreaking. TT, it must have been so difficult for you to witness that stuff.

[happystuff]

So sad to hear how difficult it is for children who are already "damaged." It truly is better for some people to never become parents. Heartbreaking. TT, it must have been so difficult for you to witness that stuff.

The sad part is that a lot of folks often believe any child available for adoption above the age of 1-3 is considered "damaged".

The truth is, they have a history, just like every other person in the world.

[Ultralight]

The sad part is that a lot of folks often believe any child available for adoption above the age of 1-3 is considered "damaged".

The truth is, they have a history, just like every other person in the world.

The way human development works though... kids can tragically be totally messed up that early in life, and never be able to recover. Heart wrenching.

[Ultralight]

I had a friend that was diagnosed with stage 4 ovarian cancer 20 years ago. After 10 hours of surgery the doctor said she had 6 months to live. My friend said I am too young to die and refused to believe it. She did chemo and went into remission. It came back 8 times and she had more surgeries and chemo then anyone I know. She was the happiest most upbeat person I have ever known. Her oncologist said he wished he knew what was different about her body chemistry that made it possible to save her when others died. I think her attitude and strong belief contributed.

If things worked out well for her, great!

It is important to acknowledge though, this is an anecdote, not evidence.

One thing I found disconcerting in my year of social work school was how evidence was not really a priority among aspiring social workers or even the majority of instructors and professors. Most lacked that level of information/science literacy and, disturbingly, they had no desire to acquire it.

[Teacher Terry]

Happy, it’s one reason I only lasted as a social worker for 4 years. I was much happier working with adults with disabilities helping them go to work. In fact, birth parents have a year to change their minds. That must be one long year for the parents.

[Tammy]

Adoption through the foster care system costs nothing, daycare is free, Medicaid until age 18, and you get a stipend monthly (~500) until child is 18. My grandson was adopted this way. Money stops very few from adopting.

But wanting a straight from the hospital newborn healthy white baby with no fear that the foster situation will end with the birth family getting the child back us —- that is what stops people from adopting because that route is expensive. Foster to adopt has more uncertainty but it is not expensive and nearly all costs are covered.

[Tammy]

And giving birth is also uncertain but we dont like to admit it. We like to feel in control of our lives.

My brother has a special needs child who spent his first 4 months in the hospital and nearly died many times. He continues with ongoing medical care at age 2.5 and it has cost millions I believe. Out of pocket is ~100,000 by this time.

[Teacher Terry]

Tammy, that’s interesting that in your state they have made it free. That probably encourages adoptions.

[Alan]

Tammy, that’s interesting that in your state they have made it free. That probably encourages adoptions.
It has been my understanding that the only costs associated with adopting from the foster care system in any state are the initial fees for training materials to become a foster care provider and possible agency fees if you use a private agency to interact with the state child welfare agencies. I'd be curious to know what state expenses you've encountered?

[sweetana3]

Here is more info but it is necessary to really check each state. https://www.adopting.com/adoption-blog/state-adoption-costs

[sweetana3]

Here is more info but it is necessary to really check each state. https://www.adopting.com/adoption-blog/state-adoption-costs.

And please be aware that fostering most often means the baby will go back to the family or has a high chance of going back. This has been true for decades (happened to my in laws over 50 years ago.)

[Teacher Terry]

I have been out of child welfare for decades so much has changed it appears.

[happystuff]

Here is more info but it is necessary to really check each state. https://www.adopting.com/adoption-blog/state-adoption-costs.

And please be aware that fostering most often means the baby will go back to the family or has a high chance of going back. This has been true for decades (happened to my in laws over 50 years ago.)

Agree. However, I personally know two foster-adoptions of infants - again, many years ago - but it's not totally unheard of.

[happystuff]

I have been out of child welfare for decades so much has changed it appears.

You are right; there have been a lot of changes through the years and things are continuing to change.

[Alan]

Agree. However, I personally know two foster-adoptions of infants - again, many years ago - but it's not totally unheard of.I know of one last year. A friend of my wife fostered a drug addicted toddler and after a few months also fostered the toddlers newborn sister who was born in jail. They successfully adopted both girls within a year.

[happystuff]

I know of one last year. A friend of my wife fostered a drug addicted toddler and after a few months also fostered the toddlers newborn sister who was born in jail. They successfully adopted both girls within a year.

That IS fast! Congrats to them all!

[Tammy]

Of 3 foster grandkids (all with our family for a year or more so we really bonded) only 1 ended up adopted. It’s hard. But we gave those kids the best chance we could to recover and grow while the birth families got their lives together.

[happystuff]

Of 3 foster grandkids (all with our family for a year or more so we really bonded) only 1 ended up adopted. It’s hard. But we gave those kids the best chance we could to recover and grow while the birth families got their lives together.

It is hard. Congrats to you all as well - on all 3 grandkids.

[happystuff]

And - Happy National Adoption Day!

[Tammy]

Cool! I didn’t know it was today.

[happystuff]

November is actually National Adoption Month. :)