Silly, but eye-opening info-graphic

[Ultralight]

My main source of protein (peanut butter) is apparently super low emissions! haha

3032

[happystuff]

I'm surprised that cow milk is as low as it it!

[Ultralight]

I'm surprised that cow milk is as low as it it!

I know! Very surprising. I was also surprised how high my beloved rice is. I thought rice would be below peanut butter.

[bae]

What's the source of the data represented in that graphic?

It seems unlikely that a fish I catch right off my back porch here, and cook up 5 feet from where I caught it, has a higher carbon footprint than tofu made Somewhere Else and shipped over here.

And that lamb in the field next door, which will be eaten soon, also seems a better deal than peanut butter dragged across the country and stocked in the market.

[Ultralight]

I believe it is based on this report by the Environmental Working Group.

https://www.ewg.org/meateatersguide/a-meat-eaters-guide-to-climate-change-health-what-you-eat-matters/climate-and-environmental-impacts/

You could trying calling them and explaining about the lamb next door to you, they might change the report.

[pinkytoe]

I can no longer eat lentils though I like them a lot. They put me in distress for days.

[Rogar]

It seems like the word is gradually working it's way into mainstream. There needs to be a shift in the way people think about food and it's effects on health, habitat, climate, and mainstream agricultural practices. Bill Clinton got at least one thing right.

[JaneV2.0]

It seems like the word is gradually working it's way into mainstream. There needs to be a shift in the way people think about food and it's effects on health, habitat, climate, and mainstream agricultural practices. Bill Clinton got at least one thing right.

And now he looks like death warmed over. Have a cheeseburger, Bill, please!
(Doing my part eating one meal a day and locally-sourced meat, but pretty sure my coconut milk habit isn't sustainable...)

[Rogar]

Bill claims that his diet saved his life. He may look better than actually being dead. Then again he's been reputed to commit perjury.

[JaneV2.0]

Bill claims that his diet saved his life. He may look better than actually being dead. Then again he's been reputed to commit perjury.

A friend of mine opined that modern medicine saved his life; then he died. Call me skeptical.

[JaneV2.0]

And coffee. How much does schlepping coffee beans around the world cost the environment?

Eating local would be horribly boring--no spices, nothing but various meats and fishes, vegetables, grains, dairy, some fruits. But really--no spices? Kill me now.

[catherine]

And now he looks like death warmed over. Have a cheeseburger, Bill, please!
(Doing my part eating one meal a day and locally-sourced meat, but pretty sure my coconut milk habit isn't sustainable...)

I agree about Bill--when I saw him on TV a few months after his vegan diet, it looked like he aged 15 years. BUT that's an aesthetic opinion--not a health one. I still believe that loading up on "real food" is best, minimizing red, factory-farmed meat--the Mediterranean diet for example.

As for the sustainability chart, I love all the things on the lower end of the chart, except for peanut butter! I hate peanut butter--lifelong aversion--but lentils and tofu and nuts--all that stuff is part of my normal diet. Haven't had lamb in decades, although I used to really love it.

As for coffee--you're right, and I try as hard as I can to buy free-trade, shade-grown coffee. Not easy to find. Trader Joe's has a brand.

[bae]

Eating local would be horribly boring--no spices, nothing but various meats and fishes, vegetables, grains, dairy, some fruits. But really--no spices? Kill me now.

I love herbs and spices.

Looking at my extensive collection, and looking at the volume, and my reorder times, and my supply line, I think if I compromised and ate locally-sourced food for most of my diet, and allowed the spice to still flow, I'd have solved the bulk of the problem.

The remaining ecological impact of the small weight/volume of spices I consume would be minor in comparison to other things that would still go on in my life because of the structure of our economy.

[JaneV2.0]

Yes--I suppose my spices could hitch a ride on a freighter without too much impact in our soon-to-be dystopian world. And I could surely grow my own herbs. A coconut palm, not so much (though maybe global warming would allow it).

Over the years, I've hoarded a lot of supplies that will make not buying new fairly easy for me (even legumes, which are not really a favorite), so I guess I'm ready for anything.

[bae]

Yes--I suppose my spices could hitch a ride on a freighter without too much impact in our soon-to-be dystopian world.

Windjammers may well come back into style for high-price/low-volume cargo, like spices and iPhones :-)

I don't quite understand today's economy, where I can Amazon Prime a $.25 electronics component, and have it arrive here on my doorstep on this remote island, drop-shipped directly from China, in a couple of days, with no shipping charge.

[catherine]

My happiest moments are running out to the back garden and snipping off fresh parsley, cilantro, mint, basil, dill, oregano, rosemary, and sage.

[JaneV2.0]

My happiest moments are running out to the back garden and snipping off fresh parsley, cilantro, mint, basil, dill, oregano, rosemary, and sage.

My list would include holy basil, lemon grass, chives, cilantro, dill, mint, and parsley.

[Rogar]

I agree about Bill--when I saw him on TV a few months after his vegan diet, it looked like he aged 15 years. BUT that's an aesthetic opinion--not a health one. I still believe that loading up on "real food" is best, minimizing red, factory-farmed meat--the Mediterranean diet for example.

My take is that the Mediterranean diet approaches ideal for most people. Even being vegan, I'm not sure I'd recommend it. It's hard to stick to, has a high recidivism rate, typically more prep time in the kitchen, and takes some study to get the proper nutrients. I don't know that the diet gurus have come up with the perfect fit for health and the environment that works for everyone and is not such a huge shift in eating habits.

Bill's quadruple by-pass, collapsed lung, then a heart attack and two stints back in his carnivore days and then losing 40 pounds may have taken a toll on his looks. It is interesting that Trump appears more robust at almost the same age.

My family always had a decent food garden with corn, tomatoes, squash, but no spices that I remember. One of my joys still is walking out the backdoor and cutting fresh spinach or lettuce, picking tomatoes, or what ever is in season during our short growing times. It seems like a very good thing for anyone who has the space and time. I suppose from a purely environmental perspective a small urban apartment might have a smaller carbon footprint, but maybe not as fun.

[Ultralight]

And coffee. How much does schlepping coffee beans around the world cost the environment?

Eating local would be horribly boring--no spices, nothing but various meats and fishes, vegetables, grains, dairy, some fruits. But really--no spices? Kill me now.

I don't like coffee.

Eating local could be boring. That is an interesting point. I love Indian food. And having some form of it, even if it is just some chana masala and basmati rice, is key to my happiness.
But maybe those spices and herbs could be grown in IL. I dunno...

[Ultralight]

My take is that the Mediterranean diet approaches ideal for most people. Even being vegan, I'm not sure I'd recommend it. It's hard to stick to, has a high recidivism rate, typically more prep time in the kitchen, and takes some study to get the proper nutrients. I don't know that the diet gurus have come up with the perfect fit for health and the environment that works for everyone and is not such a huge shift in eating habits.

The vegan diet is a tough one. I am in the third month of being vegan again. Everyday I yearn for proper Indian food with ghee and a dollop of yogurt in it! haha

Think about a regular vegetarian diet though -- one that includes dairy or dairy & eggs. That is so easy! 95% of restaurants have some good veggie stuff. But the win is huge for both the planet and the animals.
Huge win, small effort.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Think about a regular vegetarian diet though -- one that includes dairy or dairy & eggs. That is so easy! 95% of restaurants have some good veggie stuff. But the win is huge for both the planet and the animals.
Huge win, small effort.

for animals it may be a win, for the planet I've certainly seen stuff that says dairy is worse for the environment than chicken and then one may wonder why they keep ordering the veggie lasagna if what they really want is the roast chicken - for example (except out of concern for animals of course). I think any net win for the environment comes largely just from eliminating red meat, which is an automatic part of vegetarianism of course and not so automatic otherwise. Yes different sources seem to have somewhat different information.

[Ultralight]

for animals it may be a win, for the planet I've certainly seen stuff that says dairy is worse for the environment than chicken...
Link?

[JaneV2.0]

Bill Clinton wasn't a carnivore--he apparently was an omnivorous devotee of the Standard American Diet--as is Trump--without much thoughtful eating going on.

The Mediterranean diet was made up of whole cloth by Ancel Keys, who enjoyed holding nutritional conferences on the European coast (Big Fat Surprise, N.Teicholz). I guess you could cobble one together with fish, lamb, pasta, fruits and vegetables, and goat- and sheep's-milk dairy.

I found a vegan diet disastrous, personally, with its glaring nutritional deficiencies. Luckily, I felt ill effects after only a couple of months, so didn't do much damage. I enjoyed my vegetarian fare, and ate lots of eggs and cheese throughout.

Recent research in the field shows that individual gut biomes are key to each person's optimal nutritional profile. From what I can tell, omnivory suits me best--no one kind of food is problematic, with the possible exception of bread in large quantities. I plan to give carnivory a run, but I expect it to be rather boring for the long haul. Eventually, we'll have a "gut-check," :) and receive a personally-tailored eating plan, I predict.

[Ultralight]

The Mediterranean diet was made up of whole cloth by Ancel Keys, who enjoyed holding nutritional conferences on the European coast (Big Fat Surprise, N.Teicholz). I guess you could cobble one together with fish, lamb, pasta, fruits and vegetables, and goat- and sheep's-milk dairy.

I found a vegan diet disastrous, personally, with its glaring nutritional deficiencies. Luckily, I felt ill effects after only a couple of months, so didn't do much damage. I enjoyed my vegetarian fare, and ate lots of eggs and cheese throughout.

Recent research in the field shows that individual gut biomes are key to each person's optimal nutritional profile. From what I can tell, omnivory suits me best--no one kind of food is problematic, with the possible exception of bread in large quantities. I plan to give carnivory a run, but I expect it to be rather boring for the long haul. Eventually, we'll have a "gut-check," :) and receive a personally-tailored eating plan, I predict.

Does evidence matter to you?

[ApatheticNoMore]

Well there's a lot of information out there and I'm not sure I can find that exact information, and there is some ambiguity.

this graphic is by kg of food and has butter and cheese as worse than pork and chicken but one presumably doesn't eat that many pounds of butter, cheese eh one can eat lot of cheese, I would know
https://www.nrdc.org/sites/default/files/10-common-climate-damaging-foods-infographic.pdf

this has cheese as worse than pork and chicken, although that one is by pound of protein and I really don't know how relevant a measure that is assuming one is getting enough protein to survive (anyone in the first world)
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth

[Ultralight]

Well there's a lot of information out there and I'm not sure I can find that exact information, and there is some ambiguity.

this graphic is by kg of food and has butter and cheese as worse than pork and chicken but one presumably doesn't eat that many pounds of butter, cheese eh one can eat lot of cheese, I would know
https://www.nrdc.org/sites/default/files/10-common-climate-damaging-foods-infographic.pdf

this has cheese as worse than pork and chicken, although that one is by pound of protein and I really don't know how relevant a measure that is assuming one is getting enough protein to survive (anyone in the first world)
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/may/31/avoiding-meat-and-dairy-is-single-biggest-way-to-reduce-your-impact-on-earth

I doubt down that cheese is worse than pigs or chickens. Thanks for the links! I always appreciate new info.

[Rogar]

Bill Clinton wasn't a carnivore--he apparently was an omnivorous devotee of the Standard American Diet--as is Trump--without much thoughtful eating going on.

Possibly semantics, but I'd call the standard american diet carnivorous.

[Ultralight]

Possibly semantics, but I'd call the standard american diet carnivorous.

Calling people who ate the standard American diet "carnivores" used to be easy to understand.

But now, Rogar, there are people who are literally carnivores. They eat meat and only meat. So I think the new slang term is "omni."

[Rogar]

The Mediterranean diet was made up of whole cloth by Ancel Keys, who enjoyed holding nutritional conferences on the European coast (Big Fat Surprise, N.Teicholz). I guess you could cobble one together with fish, lamb, pasta, fruits and vegetables, and goat- and sheep's-milk dairy.

I suppose some guy made some money by selling a book and promoting some sort of Med diet by his standards. Here's what the Mayo Clinic has to say, if you trust a degree of medical science and want a broader description.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/mediterranean-diet/art-20047801

[JaneV2.0]

Possibly semantics, but I'd call the standard american diet carnivorous.

I would differ--carnivorous diets, like those eaten by the Inuit and Masai and modern people emulating them, avoid plant-based foods entirely. Obligate carnivores like cats, do likewise.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Haven't humans been described as omnivores by nature since like forever? So no I don't think carnivore was ever a common term for it really. New slang, I bet you can find a 60 old biology textbook saying humans are natural omnivores.

[JaneV2.0]

I suppose some guy made some money by selling a book and promoting some sort of Med diet by his standards. Here's what the Mayo Clinic has to say, if you trust a degree of medical science and want a broader description.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-lifestyle/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/mediterranean-diet/art-20047801

Ancel Keys was the guy who started it all--touting low-fat foods and becoming a media darling (while dooming millions to inflammation and obesity). Probably some enterprising doctors glommed onto the idea, refined it, and are selling it now. Nothing wrong with whole foods, however they're presented, I suppose.

[Ultralight]

I found a vegan diet disastrous, personally, with its glaring nutritional deficiencies. Luckily, I felt ill effects after only a couple of months, so didn't do much damage. I enjoyed my vegetarian fare, and ate lots of eggs and cheese throughout.

Recent research in the field shows that individual gut biomes are key to each person's optimal nutritional profile. From what I can tell, omnivory suits me best--no one kind of food is problematic, with the possible exception of bread in large quantities. I plan to give carnivory a run, but I expect it to be rather boring for the long haul. Eventually, we'll have a "gut-check," :) and receive a personally-tailored eating plan, I predict.

Watch this:

I found an omnivorous diet disastrous, personally, with its glaring problems, like inflammation and atherosclerosis. Unfortunately, I thought the ill effects were just a normal part of life. It may have done some damage, even though I did enjoy eating the pigs and lambs throughout.

Recent research in the field shows that individual gut biomes are key to each person's optimal nutritional profile. From what I can tell, a vegetarian whole foods diet suits me best -- no one kind of food is problematic, with the exception of animals and probably their secretions. I plan to give vegan whole foods a run, but I expect it to be a little boring for the long haul. Eventually, we'll have a "gut-check," :) and receive a personally-tailored plant-based eating plan, I predict.

[Rogar]

Ancel Keys was the guy who started it all--touting low-fat foods and becoming a media darling (while dooming millions to inflammation and obesity). Probably some enterprising doctors glommed onto the idea, refined it, and are selling it now. Nothing wrong with whole foods, however they're presented, I suppose.

So here's the other version by the Mayo:
Interest in the Mediterranean diet began in the 1960s with the observation that coronary heart disease caused fewer deaths in Mediterranean countries, such as Greece and Italy, than in the U.S. and northern Europe. Subsequent studies found that the Mediterranean diet is associated with reduced risk factors for cardiovascular disease.

The Mediterranean diet is one of the healthy eating plans recommended by the Dietary Guidelines for Americans to promote health and prevent chronic disease.
It is also recognized by the World Health Organization as a healthy and sustainable dietary pattern and as an intangible cultural asset by the United National Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization.

The foundation of the Mediterranean diet is vegetables, fruits, herbs, nuts, beans and whole grains. Meals are built around these plant-based foods. Moderate amounts of dairy, poultry and eggs are also central to the Mediterranean Diet, as is seafood. In contrast, red meat is eaten only occasionally.

[happystuff]

My happiest moments are running out to the back garden and snipping off fresh parsley, cilantro, mint, basil, dill, oregano, rosemary, and sage.

I do NOT have a green thumb at all! But I hope to someday reach this point. Kudos to you!

[happystuff]

It is interesting that Trump appears more robust at almost the same age.

Really? Any picture I have ever seen of him is of an un-smile, sad, orange man. Maybe I don't see enough pictures of him?

[Ultralight]

So here's the other version by the Mayo:
Interest in the Mediterranean diet began in the 1960s with the observation that coronary heart disease caused fewer deaths in Mediterranean countries, such as Greece and Italy, than in the U.S. and northern Europe. Subsequent studies found that the Mediterranean diet is associated with reduced risk factors for cardiovascular disease.

The Mediterranean diet is one of the healthy eating plans recommended by the Dietary Guidelines for Americans to promote health and prevent chronic disease.
It is also recognized by the World Health Organization as a healthy and sustainable dietary pattern and as an intangible cultural asset by the United National Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization.

The foundation of the Mediterranean diet is vegetables, fruits, herbs, nuts, beans and whole grains. Meals are built around these plant-based foods. Moderate amounts of dairy, poultry and eggs are also central to the Mediterranean Diet, as is seafood. In contrast, red meat is eaten only occasionally.

How can I put this tactfully? For a person to change their mind they have to be open to new information and evidence. If they don't think evidence matters or if they think new information is something to pathologically avoid, then no new info or evidence has a chance of changing their mind. Just something to think about, not referring to anyone specific here. ;)

[Rogar]

Really? Any picture I have ever seen of him is of an un-smile, sad, orange man. Maybe I don't see enough pictures of him?

I don't know, maybe it's a tie. Bill does look a little rough these days.

[JaneV2.0]

So here's the other version by the Mayo:
Interest in the Mediterranean diet began in the 1960s with the observation that coronary heart disease caused fewer deaths in Mediterranean countries, such as Greece and Italy, than in the U.S. and northern Europe. Subsequent studies found that the Mediterranean diet is associated with reduced risk factors for cardiovascular disease.

The Mediterranean diet is one of the healthy eating plans recommended by the Dietary Guidelines for Americans to promote health and prevent chronic disease.
It is also recognized by the World Health Organization as a healthy and sustainable dietary pattern and as an intangible cultural asset by the United National Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization.

The foundation of the Mediterranean diet is vegetables, fruits, herbs, nuts, beans and whole grains. Meals are built around these plant-based foods. Moderate amounts of dairy, poultry and eggs are also central to the Mediterranean Diet, as is seafood. In contrast, red meat is eaten only occasionally.

Ancel Keys kicked it off with his Seven Countries "study," where he eliminated the countries that didn't fit his narrative, and we've lived with the result for decades.

[Ultralight]

Ancel Keys bad. Ancel Keys bad. Ancel Keys bad.

LOL

[happystuff]

How can I put this tactfully? For a person to change their mind they have to be open to new information and evidence. If they don't think evidence matters or if they think new information is something to pathologically avoid, then no new info or evidence has a chance of changing their mind. Just something to think about, not referring to anyone specific here. ;)

Oops - responded to the wrong post. Sorry!!! LOL.

[happystuff]

I don't know, maybe it's a tie. Bill does look a little rough these days.

I will be honest and say that I haven't seen a recent picture of Bill Clinton.

[Rogar]

Ancel Keys kicked it off with his Seven Countries "study," where he eliminated the countries that didn't fit his narrative, and we've lived with the result for decades.

I put Keys criticism into the same category as conspiracy theory, but diet and nutrition are not a hard a science and there are fringe groups. There apparently are carnivores who eat nothing but meat, fruictarians, and breathairians and I suppose they all claim some sort of psuedo science. We have choices, at least. How people deal with their own personal health and diet is of little concern to me other than wanting people to be healthy. When it comes to what is a more sustainable diet for the environment, I do have some strong opinions. A brief from wiki.

Ancel Benjamin Keys (January 26, 1904 – November 20, 2004) was an American physiologist who studied the influence of diet on health. In particular, he hypothesized that dietary saturated fat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat) causes cardiovascular heart disease and should be avoided. Modern dietary recommendations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturated_fat#Dietary_recommendations) by health organizations,[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancel_Keys#cite_note-aha2017-1)[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancel_Keys#cite_note-2) systematic reviews,[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancel_Keys#cite_note-Hooper2015-3) and national health agencies[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancel_Keys#cite_note-4)[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancel_Keys#cite_note-5)[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancel_Keys#cite_note-6)[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancel_Keys#cite_note-7)[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancel_Keys#cite_note-8)[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancel_Keys#cite_note-9)[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancel_Keys#cite_note-10)[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancel_Keys#cite_note-11) corroborate this.

[Ultralight]

I put Keys criticism into the same category as conspiracy theory, but diet and nutrition are not a hard a science and there are fringe groups. There apparently are carnivores who eat nothing but meat, fruictarians, and breathairians. Even vegans like me. We have choices, at least. A brief from wiki.

Ancel Benjamin Keys (January 26, 1904 – November 20, 2004) was an American physiologist who studied the influence of diet on health. In particular, he hypothesized that dietary saturated fat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat) causes cardiovascular heart disease and should be avoided. Modern dietary recommendations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturated_fat#Dietary_recommendations) by health organizations,[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancel_Keys#cite_note-aha2017-1)[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancel_Keys#cite_note-2) systematic reviews,[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancel_Keys#cite_note-Hooper2015-3) and national health agencies[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancel_Keys#cite_note-4)[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancel_Keys#cite_note-5)[6] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancel_Keys#cite_note-6)[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancel_Keys#cite_note-7)[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancel_Keys#cite_note-8)[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancel_Keys#cite_note-9)[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancel_Keys#cite_note-10)[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancel_Keys#cite_note-11) corroborate this.

You read Blue Zones 2, right? It is the sequel to Dan Buettner's first book, Blue Zones, about the longest living people in the world. In the first Blue Zones Dan profiled several communities of people who live to be 100 and explained that their diets were largely vegetarian.

But then he went back and found even more communities in other parts of the world that eat the carnivore diet, or a close approximation of it, like keto-style or extreme low carb diets. And he found that in these "ultra blue zones" people actually live to 110 or even 120! Pretty amazing stuff. Right!?!!?

[happystuff]

You read Blue Zones 2, right? It is the sequel to Dan Buettner's first book, Blue Zones, about the longest living people in the world. In the first Blue Zones Dan profiled several communities of people who live to be 100 and explained that their diets were largely vegetarian.

But then he went back and found even more communities in other parts of the world that eat the carnivore diet, or a close approximation of it, like keto-style or extreme low carb diets. And he found that in these "ultra blue zones" people actually live to 110 or even 120! Pretty amazing stuff. Right!?!!?

I haven't read either one of these so maybe I should just stay out of this but.... what if the longevity is not due to diet? What if it is attitude, genes, stress levels, happiness levels, etc? Something other than diet or something greater than, but in addition to, diet.

Just a thought.

[JaneV2.0]

The anti-saturated fat battleship is turning slowly, probably due to the profitability of industrial seed oils.

https://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/news/20140320/dietary-fats-q-a#1

IMO, "nutrition science" has little to do with science, and lots to do with marketing. And I'm far from the only one who thinks so.

The bottom line is different people have differing responses to food, and whole unadulterated natural foods in some combination are best for most of us.

ETA: From the article:

Researchers looked at 72 published studies on fats and heart disease. The studies involved more than 600,000 people from 18 countries. Some people already had heart disease, while others did not. The researchers reanalyzed the results, an approach called a meta-analysis.

They looked at whether different fats helped or hurt your heart. The different fats included:

Saturated fats (found in meats, whole-fat dairy products, and baked goods)

Polyunsaturated fats, such as omega-3 and omega-6 (found in fish, nuts, seeds, and vegetable oils)

Monounsaturated fats (found in olive and canola oils)

Trans fats (found in fried foods and baked goods, and being phased out of the food supply)

The surprise? Saturated fats, long thought to raise heart disease risks, had no effect. Neither did monounsaturated fats, which are thought to help the heart, says study researcher Dariush Mozaffarian, MD, at the Harvard School of Public Health.

Which fats did have an effect? Trans fats, known to raise bad cholesterol and lower good cholesterol, were linked with a higher risk of heart disease, as expected. Omega-3s from food helped. Omega-6s appeared to help.

Then the defenders of the decades-long lie that saturated fats cause heart disease (instead of widespread inflammation as current research seems to show), jump in to defend the status quo. After all, they've been spouting this foolishness for years, and don't want to lose funding at this late date.

[Rogar]

I read the first one but have never heard of the other Blue Zone. I think he weighs pretty heavily on lifestyle, along with diet, like sense of community and staying active. It's not just diet. It's probably no secret that a diet heavy in carbs is not good. I suspect people who are especially physically active burn fat rather than store it and in those cases maybe the mainstream rules don't follow, but I really don't know.

[Ultralight]

I read the first one but have never heard of the other Blue Zone. I think he weighs pretty heavily on lifestyle, along with diet, like sense of community and staying active. It's not just diet. It's probably no secret that a diet heavy in carbs is not good. I suspect people who are especially physically active burn fat rather than store it and in those cases maybe the mainstream rules don't follow, but I really don't know.

There is no Blue Zones 2 about carnivores. I made that up. A little satire. :)

[happystuff]

The bottom line is different people have differing responses to food, and whole unadulterated natural foods in some combination are best for most of us.

I agree.

But I do think that "whole unadulterated natural foods in some combination" are not always that easy for everyone to obtain.

[Ultralight]

I agree.

But I do think that "whole unadulterated natural foods in some combination" are not always that easy for everyone to obtain.

Not easy, but also not impossible. And it is far more accessible than people think for the vast majority of Americans.

[JaneV2.0]

I agree.

But I do think that "whole unadulterated natural foods in some combination" are not always that easy for everyone to obtain.

Aye, there's the rub.

[happystuff]

Not easy, but also not impossible. And it is far more accessible than people think for the vast majority of Americans.

Accessible maybe, but I think cost plays a huge part for a lot of folks. I often find myself choosing the "cheaper" over the "healthier" due to finances.

[NewGig]

One thing i read recently is that if you’re going to shift the kind of food you eat, you need to start small and give your gut flora a chance to adjust. So, changing to a vegan or other diet tomorrow might be guaranteed to give you stomach issues!

[Ultralight]

Accessible maybe, but I think cost plays a huge part for a lot of folks. I often find myself choosing the "cheaper" over the "healthier" due to finances.

I have lived on a fairly healthy diet on $1.50 a day for week. I have done this like five times. And I have done it with other people (friends, girlfriends).

My diet was rice, lentils, cabbage, carrots, bananas, peanut butter, eggs, and bread.

It is called The Live Below The Line Challenge.


But...

Let's say I went with Ohio's Food Stamp allowance. That is a little over $4 a day per person. I could eat very well on this. I think most everyone could in the US.

[JaneV2.0]

One thing i read recently is that if you’re going to shift the kind of food you eat, you need to start small and give your gut flora a chance to adjust. So, changing to a vegan or other diet tomorrow might be guaranteed to give you stomach issues!

That seems like good advice. I see a lot of commentary to that effect on FB; lots of digestive issues. I've pursued practically every dietary plan known to humankind (though not carnivore yet), and I've never had this problem. I segued right from vegetarianism to a double bacon cheeseburger one day--maybe because I'm lucky enough to have avoided antibiotics, which wreak havoc with one's gut biome, for the most part.

[JaneV2.0]

I read the first one but have never heard of the other Blue Zone. I think he weighs pretty heavily on lifestyle, along with diet, like sense of community and staying active. It's not just diet. It's probably no secret that a diet heavy in carbs is not good. I suspect people who are especially physically active burn fat rather than store it and in those cases maybe the mainstream rules don't follow, but I really don't know.

That's a good point, and correlates to Dean Ornish's life style plan--smoking cessation, stress relief, an exercise program, social outlets, etc. (He always gives the credit to his vegan-ish diet, but I agree with you--all those other factors mean as much or more.)

There's the famous Roseto Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roseto_effect

Wherein the subjects do everything "wrong," but still live long, healthy lives.

[happystuff]

I have lived on a fairly healthy diet on $1.50 a day for week. I have done this like five times. And I have done it with other people (friends, girlfriends).

My diet was rice, lentils, cabbage, carrots, bananas, peanut butter, eggs, and bread.

It is called The Live Below The Line Challenge.


But...

Let's say I went with Ohio's Food Stamp allowance. That is a little over $4 a day per person. I could eat very well on this. I think most everyone could in the US.

If it was just me, I believe I could do likewise. Not speaking for others, but I think it may not be a matter of "could" so much as "would".

Also, crunching the numbers, $4 per day per person results in a larger per week grocery bill than I normally budget/spend.

It makes me laugh sometimes that people on food stamps get to spend more on groceries than I normally spend. Funny how things work out.

[catherine]

I found this article from The Guardian interesting. I think that people can live healthy lives cheaply. You don't have to spend a fortune on out-of-season blueberries or daily avocados (the article states that avocado sales outdo orange sales in the UK). And I do think our obsession with food trends is fueled by marketing, particularly the latest dietary "expert's" book.

Anyway, this is more to do with perceptions of clean eating than sustainability, but it's still interesting. I do think by paring down the need to go outside our local biome searching for the miracle food that will keep us young and healthy, we can be more sustainable in our eating practices.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/aug/11/why-we-fell-for-clean-eating?fbclid=IwAR3tknSkzAKg53TQdqu_rmDTmBr4RLph-X2sGNu23E_1uWzYA8U2Rhh6TEM

[ApatheticNoMore]

I found this article from The Guardian interesting. I think that people can live healthy lives cheaply. You don't have to spend a fortune on out-of-season blueberries or daily avocados (the article states that avocado sales outdo orange sales in the UK).

Regardless of season, unless you can harvest them wild somewhere, I'm quite sure you can't have blueberries and a $4 a day diet, if organic, they can near $4 just by themselves :).

[JaneV2.0]

I found this article from The Guardian interesting. I think that people can live healthy lives cheaply. You don't have to spend a fortune on out-of-season blueberries or daily avocados (the article states that avocado sales outdo orange sales in the UK). And I do think our obsession with food trends is fueled by marketing, particularly the latest dietary "expert's" book.

Anyway, this is more to do with perceptions of clean eating than sustainability, but it's still interesting. I do think by paring down the need to go outside our local biome searching for the miracle food that will keep us young and healthy, we can be more sustainable in our eating practices.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/aug/11/why-we-fell-for-clean-eating?fbclid=IwAR3tknSkzAKg53TQdqu_rmDTmBr4RLph-X2sGNu23E_1uWzYA8U2Rhh6TEM

I skimmed the article. and didn't much like its snarky tone (And I'm probably not the target audience for their message, having just spent a few minutes browsing Italian made pastas on Amazon...)The first woman described should have expected her hair to fall out; it's made of protein after all.

I firmly believe people should (if they so desire) do their own research and experimentation (n=1) and use common sense to arrive at an idea of what they want to eat. It's a minefield because all the food manufacturers put out an unending barrage of ads designed to seduce and confuse. (No, HFCS is not "just like sugar," it's metabolized--like all fructose--by the liver, leading to non-alcoholic fatty liver disease if too much is eaten.) I don't buy into "miracle foods" per se, but I do believe there are healthier--and less healthy--ways for each individual to eat.

In a perfect world, that would probably be simple, locally-grown, mostly whole foods. "Sustainable." That sounds deadly dull, but I suppose one could make it work. With enough spices and a few good cookbooks...

[catherine]

Regardless of season, unless you can harvest them wild somewhere, I'm quite sure you can't have blueberries and a $4 a day diet, if organic, they can near $4 just by themselves :).

Exactly. I think of the Nearings who died very old (100 for Scott who self-exterminated through starving and Helen, who had a car "accident" at age 92). They didn't have to eat quinoa from Peru to stay healthy, but they did live off their own land. In that there is physical exercise, discipline, purpose, and restraint.

[Tybee]

I liked the article, thank you, Catherine. This quote:

"She lost followers “by the thousands” and received a daily raft of angry messages, including death threats. Some responded to her confession that she was suffering from an eating disorder by accusing her of being a “fat piece of lard” who didn’t have the discipline to be truly “clean”."

sums up everything that is wrong with social media.

[JaneV2.0]

I liked the article, thank you, Catherine. This quote:

"She lost followers “by the thousands” and received a daily raft of angry messages, including death threats. Some responded to her confession that she was suffering from an eating disorder by accusing her of being a “fat piece of lard” who didn’t have the discipline to be truly “clean”."

sums up everything that is wrong with social media.

Author Lierre Keith was attacked at a talk she was giving on her book The Vegetarian Myth by angry vegans wielding a cream pie laced with capsicum, after which she was temporarily blinded--all because they didn't agree with her premise.

[catherine]

Author Lierre Keith was attacked at a talk she was giving on her book The Vegetarian Myth by angry vegans wielding a cream pie laced with capsicum, after which she was temporarily blinded--all because they didn't agree with her premise.

I like Lierre Keith. I haven't read her book, but now you make me interested in doing so.

[Ultralight]

I like Lierre Keith. I haven't read her book, but now you make me interested in doing so.

She and her whole premise were totally debunked. Turns out she was never even vegan. She said while she "was vegan" she "binged on eggs and dairy every chance" she got. In other words, she wasn't vegan. haha

This gent exposes her nonsense here. Worth a watch.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMuxgAbHgJA

[Rogar]

Author Lierre Keith was attacked at a talk she was giving on her book The Vegetarian Myth by angry vegans wielding a cream pie laced with capsicum, after which she was temporarily blinded--all because they didn't agree with her premise.

I wonder what her co-hort, Jensen, would say about this since he seems to promote activism and revolution as the best means for change?

I assume the guilty party was tried in a court of law?

[Ultralight]

Author Lierre Keith was attacked at a talk she was giving on her book The Vegetarian Myth by angry vegans wielding a cream pie laced with capsicum, after which she was temporarily blinded--all because they didn't agree with her premise.
Link?

[ApatheticNoMore]

This is the source I guess, it seems somewhat credible as sources go, but it's based on complaints to the police and a youtube.
https://www.sfgate.com/default/article/Pies-in-face-attack-roils-anarchist-vegan-world-3196299.php


I wonder what her co-hort, Jensen, would say about this since he seems to promote activism and revolution as the best means for change?

probably the statement made in the article, that they should direct their attacks at the powerful, which is a pretty typical perspective, but doesn't really work for the vegan issue as you can't blame people eating animals and their products on a particular social structure I don't think, you can at most say they eat more than otherwise due to advertising or fast food franchises .. or something ...

The book seems like a radical tract against much of the same as Jensen, that is probably mostly being quoted lifted out of that context (no I have not read it)

[Ultralight]

This is the source I guess, it seems somewhat credible as sources go, but it's based on complaints to the police and a youtube.
https://www.sfgate.com/default/article/Pies-in-face-attack-roils-anarchist-vegan-world-3196299.php



probably the statement made in the article, that they should direct their attacks at the powerful, which is a pretty typical perspective, but doesn't really work for the vegan issue.

For those that believe animals have rights Ms. Keith is the powerful.

[Rogar]

probably the statement made in the article, that they should direct their attacks at the powerful, which is a pretty typical perspective, but doesn't really work for the vegan issue as you can't blame people eating animals and their products on a particular social structure I don't think, you can at most say they eat more than otherwise due to advertising or fast food franchises .. or something ...


I'd probably say that the protest was not against meat eaters, but against the author of a book dissing what they strongly believe in and was promoting the opposite. In terms of protesting against a person or people of power, I'd say that words have power and the words in her book could be significant in some ways, albeit a small audience of subscribers.

But I'm not a big subscriber to activism. It just seemed like a bit of getting a dose of the same medicine a Keith supporter has promoted. The pie throwing seemed to get enough media attention to publicize their issue, but in some ways probably backfired as portraying them as cult radicals.

[Rogar]

For those that believe animals have rights Ms. Keith is the powerful.

From my cursory scans of Ms. Keith, I got the strong impression that she believes plants and seeds are sentient beings with a conscious and also have rights similar or the same as animals. (Enjoyed your video, UL).

[Ultralight]

From my cursory scans of Ms. Keith, I got the strong impression that she believes plants and seeds are sentient beings with a conscious and also have rights similar or the same as animals. (Enjoyed your video, UL).

Which runs contrary to all the research on plants. No brain. No central nervous system.

But even if plants were sentient, it still makes much more sense to be vegetarian/vegan to reduce environmental destruction and animal/plant cruelty.
Most of the plants we grow to feed animals. If we simply ate those plants then fewer "sentient" plants would have to suffer at the mouths of humans and/or animals.

LOL

Ms. Keith is a total ass-clown.

[ApatheticNoMore]

What we're talking about here is not activism but violence as almost all activism from campaigns to protest, even civil disobedience, is explicitly non-violent. But yes it makes a case for non-violence.

I suspect Keith etc. ARE cult radicals, though perhaps with some interesting points to make. I mean saying that veganism is bad, because the population should be reduced by 90% (through birth control I assume) and everyone be hunter gathers doesn't give ANYONE useful guidance about what to have for dinner tomorrow.

[Rogar]

Which runs contrary to all the research on plants. No brain. No central nervous system.

I know, it does seem a little crazy. Plants obviously have a lower level of processing than anything in the animal realm, but there have some mysterious phenomena that makes a person wonder. I remember some lab tests with plants from Jensen's first book (and the last I could read with any interest) and the popular book, The Hidden Life of Trees, which is a short and easy read. They might have a little more going on than we think.

[Ultralight]

I know, it does seem a little crazy. Plants obviously have a lower level of processing than anything in the animal realm, but there have some mysterious phenomena that makes a person wonder. I remember some lab tests with plants from Jensen's first book (and the last I could read with any interest) and the popular book, The Hidden Life of Trees, which is a short and easy read. They might have a little more going on than we think.

I am open to more evidence.
Though I have read some of Jensen's work, he is kinda"anti-scientific method." lol

I do agree with him on some points, such as the only level of technology that is ecologically sustainable is stone age technology.

And that dismantling dams would be a good idea.

[catherine]

I know, it does seem a little crazy. Plants obviously have a lower level of processing than anything in the animal realm, but there have some mysterious phenomena that makes a person wonder. I remember some lab tests with plants from Jensen's first book (and the last I could read with any interest) and the popular book, The Hidden Life of Trees, which is a short and easy read. They might have a little more going on than we think.

I'm in the middle of reading that book now! I'm halfway through the audio version. Very interesting stuff!! I found it interesting that beech trees have a community and they grow for the purpose of supporting all members of the community, to promote the wellbeing of all the trees, not just their own growth. Kind of like Democratic Socialists. ;)

From what I understand, the source of these "emotional" impulses is unknown, but they suspect the root system may play a part with help from the mycorrrihizea.