View Full Version : Democratic Socialism Supports Robust Capitalism
Here's an interesting analysis of Scandinavian-style Democratic Socialism, and how, rather than undermining the free market economy, it actually supports and promotes growth. Personally, I'm not a huge fan of capitalism for the long run, but for people who look at Sanders-style socialism as a huge threat unseen since the Red Scares of the 50s, this could help explain how it would be a boon for personal freedom, rather than taking it away. The author argues that letting the government do the work of removing stressors, providing safety nets, and enabling people to be happy and healthy and well-educated, they go to work more productive and better able to perform at a high level, ultimately making the employers' lives better and the country's economic life more robust.
Capitalism works better if employees get paid decent wages and are supported by high-quality, democratically accountable public services that enable everyone to live healthy, dignified lives and to enjoy real equality of opportunity for themselves and their children.
It's a long article, but a really good one, written by an American who moved to Finland a year ago.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/07/opinion/sunday/finland-socialism-capitalism.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage
The Nordic model (which term probably over generalizes a group of countries with different practices) can provide a valuable example. In many ways. They outrank the US in some measures of economic freedom. They have also demonstrated the political will to pare back unaffordable programs where needed.
But the proposals being put forward by Sanders and some others often bear only a superficial resemblance to Nordic political economies. He minimizes or glosses over the new tax burden that would be borne by the general run of taxpayer, preferring instead to gloat over the new taxes imposed on billionaires. He, and to a greater degree Warren, also seeks to impose greater burdens of economic regulation than Scandinavian businesses must labor under.
In many ways, the “democratic socialism” he is looking to impose looks more like the French or Italian models, a bit more dirigiste and uneven . It will be interesting to see how the voters in the general election will respond to the promise of socialism, Democratic or otherwise. How will they think of disposing of (I think largely fictional) “unfettered capitalism” with a new regime of unfettered government?
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTTmhranRKfwGQqmY32PfbhrdT27SR85 yIW5EUT38O0p9T0cVzJ9A&s
What he said!
Teacher Terry
12-8-19, 12:17pm
I saw people interviewed in England and when they are told how our HC works they are shocked and the reactions are funny.
I agree with the venture capitalist friend: "Even a venture capitalist we knew in Silicon Valley who has three children sounded envious:'I’d move to Finland in a heartbeat.' "
I've become increasingly disenchanted with this country and its rampant, naked, uncaring greed. I could have emigrated right after I retired, but inertia worked its magic, and I'm way too old now. Pity.
I started reading The Little Book of Lykke: Secrets of the World's Happiest People yesterday.
Happiest country - Denmark
#2 Switzerland
#3 Norway
Also high on the list are Iceland, Finland, Canada, the Netherlands, Sweden
Higher than the US are Australia, New Zealand, Israel, Austria, Costa Rica
Maybe instead of trying to be the strongest country militarily, or have the world's wealthiest economy, we should take advice from that opponent of a standing military, and advocate of yeomen rather than big corporations, Thomas Jefferson, and engage in the pursuit of happiness. Serving the interests of the corporatist military fossil fuel for profit health care industries has not served us well.
Teacher Terry
12-8-19, 12:41pm
Some small towns in Italy are selling rundown houses for a buck trying to revitalize the towns. I love Europe but some countries won’t allow foreigners on their HC. Then you may have language barriers. In Poland in winter the days are short and gloomy with lots of bad air quality because they still burn coal. A friend of mine emigrated to Ireland but her dad was born there so she had dual citizenship.
ApatheticNoMore
12-8-19, 1:30pm
Comparing Bernie Sanders campaign proposals to actual policy elsewhere is a category error to begin with. I don't say that as a knock on Sander's or anything, but comparing proposals to actual policy IS an unlike comparison.
For instance the Social Democratic party in say Denmark did win most recently, HENCE an aside here, climate change can be their #1 priority as they have a functioning society (it can't be in a non-functioning society, I mean maybe it still should be of course, I understand that, but it's very difficult). But the Social Democratic party it's not the only political factor even in Denmark.
iris lilies
12-8-19, 1:48pm
What an excellent thing that the Swedes worked assiduously on the suicide rate in their own country to dramatically improve it over these last decades, bringing it right to—a par with the united States.
Happy, indeed.
Dare I mention that the Mecca of Wonderful, Austria, is quite a bit higher in suicide rate?
http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/suicide-rate-by-country/
I will say that this chart is probably only somewhat believable. For instance, how would anyone get accurate statistics on suicide from North Korea? Yet North Korea is on the chart. That’s bs.
Our happy and productive Swiss relatives bitch and moan about health care in Germany and how it is so much better. That green grass...
Well if the unhappy people remove themselves from the population the happiness score for their country could go up, if it is not offset by increased unhappiness due to the grief of their surviving loved ones.
Kind of like how as abortions went up crimes went down 20 years later as there were fewer unwanted, abused and neglected kids around who grew up and acted out.
Suicides, except in the most egregious cases, are probably unconnected to politics. Genetics, climate, SSRIs and similar drugs, and despair over being unhappy in a place where most of the population isn't, is more likely.
I’ve often wondered if those happiness surveys are at least in part a measure of a culture’s willingness to complain. Some may feel more pressure than others not to express negative views. Say what you will about Americans, but they have never been reticent on that count.
Although I might probably assume making it easier to euthanize the sickest and unhappiest members of the population might have an impact over time.
ApatheticNoMore
12-8-19, 5:06pm
Noone should be unhappy because their basic needs aren't met. But beyond that much of happiness is their own business. IOW the Nordic countries have it entirely right. The happiness measures may be dubious, but you can't make people be happy, you can only remove some unnecessary misery, that is all.
And no she does not at all convince me I'd like the winter there, when a few days of rain, and I realize a lot of that is all it would take for me to be chronically depressed.
I’ve often wondered if those happiness surveys are at least in part a measure of a culture’s willingness to complain. Some may feel more pressure than others not to express negative views. Say what you will about Americans, but they have never been reticent on that count.
Although I might probably assume making it easier to euthanize the sickest and unhappiest members of the population might have an impact over time.
While it's true they ask a simple question about happiness as a large part of the survey, other factors are:
GDP per capita
Social support
Healthy life expectancy
Freedom to make life choices
Generosity
Perceptions of corruption
Unexplained happiness
Teacher Terry
12-8-19, 6:02pm
When we were in Norway the older women were grumpy but the men were friendly.
iris lilies
12-8-19, 6:55pm
When we were in Norway the older women were grumpy but the men were friendly.
Maybe they thought you were a hot babe? :)
Teacher Terry
12-8-19, 7:08pm
Even the younger men were nice and helped my girlfriend and I get our luggage down from a overhead rack. I doubt that as it was 5 years ago and we were 60. A young guy even overheard our conversation about getting to our hotel and walked us there.
While it's true they ask a simple question about happiness as a large part of the survey, other factors are:
GDP per capita
Social support
Healthy life expectancy
Freedom to make life choices
Generosity
Perceptions of corruption
Unexplained happiness
I wonder how you quantify “unexplained happiness”?
If you add the cost of U.S. health insurance to the average family's taxes paid per year, I think it would probably exceed the tax rate of the Scandinavian countries. Then add the cost of daycare, extra time off work, etc. for a complete comparison.
I agree with ANM: the Nordic countries have their priorities straight. Much better to adopt a purpose of making people have good, happy lives than to have a purpose of making the rich even richer.
If you add the cost of U.S. health insurance to the average family's taxes paid per year, I think it would probably exceed the tax rate of the Scandinavian countries. Then add the cost of daycare, extra time off work, etc. for a complete comparison.
Exactly--I did a back-of-the napkin calculation at how much 20 years of self-employed healthcare premiums/college education for my four kids/4 years of daycare for 2 children comes out to, and it was three-quarters of a million dollars. Of course, most people have employer-based healthcare, so that number would be a lot less even though employees are carrying more of the burden of cost these days.
Would I accept a 50%+ increase in my tax rate to avoid paying $750k out of my own pocket? What a silly question.
ToomuchStuff
12-10-19, 2:20am
Suicides, except in the most egregious cases, are probably unconnected to politics. Genetics, climate, SSRIs and similar drugs, and despair over being unhappy in a place where most of the population isn't, is more likely.
AKA, Epstein didn't kill himself?
Exactly--I did a back-of-the napkin calculation at how much 20 years of self-employed healthcare premiums/college education for my four kids/4 years of daycare for 2 children comes out to, and it was three-quarters of a million dollars. Of course, most people have employer-based healthcare, so that number would be a lot less even though employees are carrying more of the burden of cost these days.
Would I accept a 50%+ increase in my tax rate to avoid paying $750k out of my own pocket? What a silly question.
If it’s such a no-brainer, why aren’t any of the Democratic candidates making that argument? Why is Warren, for instance, squirming on the hook of M4A to the extent she is?
You would think it would be an easy sell, promising to ease all sorts of financial burdens in exchange for a higher tax on income and a ramped up deficit. Could there perhaps be some skepticism, even among Democrats, that these promises could be delivered on to the extent that the cost would be justified?
They haven't presented it in that way, have they? "Pay for your health insurance on your tax bill. It will cost you less in the long run." Why haven't they? First, "tax" has been turned into the foulest, dirtiest of words. And second, it's pretty rare for any politician to present a simple bill with columns of numbers. Maybe it's time for someone to do so...
iris lilies
12-10-19, 9:27am
...Would I accept a 50%+ increase in my tax rate to avoid paying $750k out of my own pocket? What a silly question.
I know! Daycare and private college costs and etc. all shared with other taxpayers! A better deal!
...for you.:)
I know! Daycare and private college costs and etc. all shared with other taxpayers! A better deal!
...for you.:)
i have two kids and the math doesn’t work for me either. But they went to state schools. And unlike taxes, the cost eventually ended.
We should probably close the public elementary and high schools as well. Why should I have to pay for other people’s kids to get educated?
JaneV2.0
12-10-19, 10:46am
We should probably close the public elementary and high schools as well. Why should I have to pay for other people’s kids to get educated?
Every man for himself; sink or swim; so proud to live in DogEatDogistan.
iris lilies
12-10-19, 10:57am
We should probably close the public elementary and high schools as well. Why should I have to pay for other people’s kids to get educated?
Thank you for playing, you brought up the obvious rejoinder. So, here is my response:
I think that publicly subsidized education for all is one of three main tenets that made this country great. (The other two are natural resources and a clearly written, strong, constitution.) I won’t go into all of the reasons why publicly funded education is great and even necessary for a free society because we agree on that point.
But—
* publicly funded education doesn’t have to look like it does now, devolving into various problems that likely will not be solved with more money
* publicly funded education cannot be all things to all people, so stop pretending only more money will make it Mecca
* publicly funded education will never level the playing field of outcomes, so stop pretending it will
* publicly funded education is the growing beast that eats increasing tax dollars for disproportionate gain (not necessarily the fault of educators! parents and societal values get my blame)
* publicly funded education already over reaches in some ways: adding post secondary offerings just pushes that trend onward
*publicly funded post secondary education is not for everybody, in fact, it is for many fewer than now attend, and there is NO WILL among the American electorate to put stringent entry requirements in place to remedy that
These are just a few of my problems with publicly funded education.
That which someone works for is more valued by that person.It can be and often is a maturing process for young people to figure out how to pay for their college educations while also working to earn money for that experience.
Every man for himself; sink or swim; so proud to live in DogEatDogistan.
Isn’t there a middle ground between Dogeatdogistan and the People’s Republic of Coercia?
Can’t someone express doubts about the wisdom of effectively nationalizing health care or higher education without being some kind of rabid survivalist? I think government is like aspirin. The right dose can relieve suffering, but it can be poison if taken in excess.
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