What’s a TERF?

[LDAHL]

On my drive in this morning, I heard JK Rowling referred to as a “terf”. I have to admit I hadn’t heard that one before.

[iris lilies]

Dont know. If someone doesn’t come along soon in the know, we will look it up.

—wait—Don’t you have a teen in your household?

[LDAHL]

Dont know. If someone doesn’t come along soon in the know, we will look it up.

—wait—Don’t you have a teen in your household?

We’re not currently speaking. I vetoed a tattoo.

[razz]

When teens are out of sorts, you need support :~) I also had not heard the term before so went online. Seems sort of based on hating trans women but also 'anyone who doesn't follow gender ideology' - whatever that means as I am not sure what my gender ideology is due to my general tolerance of humanity.

Sounds like another way to hate, as if another was needed.

Urban Dictionary: TERF
Search domain www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=TERFhttps://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=TERF
TERF is usually thrown at any woman who express a female centered opionion or whose opinion is out of line with gender ideology. And of course, diversity of opinion is bad and liberals will silence you immediately with the term TERF to justify your harrassment , beating, and raping.

From:https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/04/16/what-is-a-terf-and-why-should-you-be-worried/
Trans-exclusionary Radical Feminism is a collective with a simple message of hate. It denies trans women basic rights such as access to health care, women’s support groups and bathroom facilities on the basis that it should be reserved for “real women”.

Some TERFs, more radical than Murray or Adichie, entirely deny trans womanhood and label trans women as “self loathing gay men”. This is problematic at best, and at worst it is dangerous.

2016 saw an unprecedented amount of violence against trans women, with a record number of 26 women being killed in the US. In Brazil last month a trans woman was forced to beg for her life before she was brutally murdered.

[LDAHL]

Since I have trouble picturing Rowling in a lynch mob, I assume this is one of those intersectional twitter storms that arise from time to time.

[bae]

Since I have trouble picturing Rowling in a lynch mob, I assume this is one of those intersectional twitter storms that arise from time to time.

Not really. It's apparently A Thing in feminism these days.

[JaneV2.0]

I'm disappointed that Rowling doesn't seem to be aware of the phenomenon of intersex.
I'm also disappointed that feminism has a lunatic fringe, apparently.

[bae]

I'm disappointed that Rowling doesn't seem to be aware of the phenomenon of intersex.
I'm also disappointed that feminism has a lunatic fringe, apparently.

Well, intersex isn't the same as trans.

But typically intersex gets left out in discussion of these issues at all, so there's also that.

[JaneV2.0]

Well, intersex isn't the same as trans.

But typically intersex gets left out in discussion of these issues at all, so there's also that.

I've long wondered if there isn't a connection between the two--endocrine or otherwise. There are a number of paths to intersex which may influence someone being transexual. I'm not sure enough research on these matters has been done.

[JaneV2.0]

Rowling seems to think sex is a binary construct, but it clearly isn't these days.

[iris lilies]

I was watching Piers Morgan fumble around in an interview yesterday, interviewing a parent about their children.

Do I have this right, intersex is the same thing as non-binary? If I am non-binary, am I also intersex? I ask because the subject of the interview kept referring to themselves as non-binary.

I hope everyone notices that I got the pronoun correct in the little ditty above. Yes the parent was “they.”

[JaneV2.0]

I was watching Piers Morgan fumble around in an interview yesterday, interviewing a parent about their children.

Do I have this right, intersex is the same thing as non-binary? If I am non-binary, am I also intersex? I ask because the subject of the interview kept referring to themselves as non-binary.

I hope everyone notices that I got the pronoun correct in the little ditty above. Yes the parent was “they.”

The more I read on the subject, the more my head swims:

https://interactadvocates.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/LavLaw-Trans-and-Intersex-Fact-Sheet.pdf

My theory is that much of it has to do with endocrine disruptors/plastics in the environment these days, but I could be wrong.

[JaneV2.0]

From the website:

• Both intersex and transgender people can identify as men, women, gender-fluid, non-binary, or in a
multitude of different ways.
• While transgender people may identify differently from how they were assigned, their biology at birth
typically conforms to a binary understanding of sexual and reproductive anatomy.
• Intersex people are generally assigned male or female despite their anatomical atypicality, but may
later identify differently and correspondingly identify as transgender.
• A person cannot transition to “become” intersex because having an intersex condition is defined as a
variation in reproductive anatomy present at birth.

This document uses “intersex” to mean those who are at risk for non-consensual surgery in infancy on the basis of medically observable intersex traits (sometimes called Differences of Sex Development).


Does chimerism play a role here? What about undiagnosed intersex conditions?

[ApatheticNoMore]

My theory is that much of it has to do with endocrine disruptors/plastics in the environment these days, but I could be wrong.

Your theory itself would probably bring the everlasting wrath of the P.C. police down on your head. Could be though, I don't know. Believe there is some link to autism.

But intersex is an entirely different thing than trans, it is biological, that's not debated. It seems like a hard life, but it's not a choice.

[bae]

But intersex is an entirely different thing than trans, it is biological, that's not debated. It seems like a hard life, but it's not a choice.

I'm intersex, and it isn't much bother at all really, and confers some useful benefits. Some folks are more impacted, of course.

They used to abort people with my particular condition due to superstition however, I'm glad my parents were more enlightened. The origin of my condition is apparently a cell division error very very early in the process, like when you are a couple of cells in size, and some wandering cosmic ray or teratogenic chemical hits the DNA at just the right instant.

[bae]

Does chimerism play a role here? What about undiagnosed intersex conditions?

A lot of intersex folks are indeed never diagnosed as such. I didn't find out until my late 40s, when I was trying to track down some wacky problems with my endocrine system. Oddly, while not a chimera, I have mosaic DNA.

Fascinating what science can tell us these days.

[LDAHL]

In talking about issues like this, is the term "sex" interchangeable with "gender", or do they carry different meanings? Can we take one to be about biology and the other about identity? I would think in both cases you can see more significant variation than a simple binary can account for. I in fact can't think of any perfect binaries that occur in nature, except maybe in quantum theory.

But of course ideology isn't natural. From what I'm hearing Rowling's crime was siding with someone who was fired from a job for expressing the belief that sex is immutable. That strikes me as different from saying it is unfair for trans women to compete in women's sports or that trans women lack the physical or experiential background to be categorized as women in feminist theory. Some of these people could give Medieval theologians a run for their money.

[iris lilies]

I have been schooled that sex and gender are different concepts.

[Simone]

The situation is significantly more complicated for Rowling and me than is being represented on this thread.

Try considering some of the points raised in this article
https://www.economist.com/open-future/2018/07/05/trans-rights-should-not-come-at-the-cost-of-womens-fragile-gains

or the validity of these arguments:
https://ctmirror.org/2019/07/22/transgender-issues-polarizes-womens-advocates-a-conundrum/

https://blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics/2019/08/12/transwomen-in-elite-womens-sport-clarifying-the-nuances-of-our-approach/

Finally, are women like Rowling and Greer being silenced? Why? Is is transphobia or just another manifestation of misogyny? (N.B. Some women have been physically attacked for expressing their opinions):

https://fairplayforwomen.com/misogyny_hate_silencing/#a5.1

[razz]

Wow, Simone, is all I can say to the links that you shared. I had no idea that all this was going on. I have believed that gender orientation was male, female or gay. Is it the trans that makes all the difference?

[iris lilies]

I knew about Germaine Greer getting dissed. I watched an interview with her. I remember when she was in the far left of feminism, now she on the “other side” or perhaps not.maybe she is just an outlier to the core.

[iris lilies]

Wow, Simone, is all I can say to the links that you shared. I had no idea that all this was going on. I have believed that gender orientation was male, female or gay. Is it the trans that makes all the difference?

In any movement for change there always factions with different points of view. The women’s movement is huge and there are many aspects to it. Remember when, just a few years ago, there was a march on Washington? That effort was clouded by infighting of major proportions having to do with women of color being shut out of planning and execution of the event.

[catherine]

Wow, Simone, is all I can say to the links that you shared. I had no idea that all this was going on. I have believed that gender orientation was male, female or gay. Is it the trans that makes all the difference?

"Gender orientation" is actually two different things: Sexual orientation (heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, asexual, etc) is different than gender identity (identify as male vs female). Then queer bridges gender identity/sexual orientation (I believe).

I think these issues are really complex, and I understand the feminist perspective. I remember a post here on this forum a couple of years ago (the one that's still kicking around--2020 Candidates) and when we had a discussion about what woman would make the best president, interestingly a couple of men on this board picked trans women (I remember Chelsea Handler was one--can't remember the other)--that really struck me. Did the male traits carry over somehow as desirable leadership traits? Or is there some subliminal aspect of believing that once-male people would have to be better presidents than cisgender females? Why would only once-male candidates come to mind as great leaders? Following that discussion, no one could even pinpoint any female candidates--there were very few women who came to mind.

I agree with the writer of the Economist article that Simone posted. So now, we are in danger of transfemales appropriating feminist issues, and somehow elevating their own issues that could drown out the issues all women still need to keep upfront in the public discourse.

SIDEBAR: This topic also reminds me of my experience at an all-women's college in the 70s. Back then, the direction was that women should break into male institutions and male-dominated occupations to advance the feminist agenda; my college stuck resolutely to the idea that being educated without male influence allowed women to not be silenced and trained us to speak out without "asking for forgiveness" (reference to Yppej's observation that the two female candidates in last night's debates asked for forgiveness), or being intimidated by males in the classroom, or having fewer leadership opportunities on campus. It was a great idea, but it didn't sell. Today there are only 34 women's colleges in the US. My college is not one of them-- unfortunately it didn't survive (Marymount College, Tarrytown, NY)

[LDAHL]

I found it fascinating that the Green Party considered “non-men” to be a more inclusive term than “women”.

All the linguistic and political struggle between subsets of humanity over which group is appropriating which group’s issues makes me wonder if this isn’t more about power than justice.

[iris lilies]

Do you all remember the pussy hat controversy? The one where trans women made a stink about pussy hats because they could be/might be/are in fact a symbol inherently disrespectful to women without pussys?

That’s when I figured the lunatics are making too much noise and I don’t have time to pay attention to that level of ridiculousness. They are marginalizing themselves, they dont need the patriarchy to do it.

[JaneV2.0]

Good grief--that last article was hair-raising! Rowling has waded into a firestorm.

I don't believe that a glance at someone's external parts is sufficient these days to determine gender, but I think there's room for rational discourse on the subject. Apparently, there is an army of thuggish social media types who disagree.