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I’m on several scuba groups on FB, as well as a big forum. I’m always rather amused by the folks who are continually hitting people over the head about environmental issues, yet they are constantly flying off to Southeast Asia and elsewhere for diving trips. They don’t seem to get the disconnect. Some report flying away long weekends at closer destinations at least once a month.
I dive regionally and all my traveling is via car.
ApatheticNoMore
12-26-19, 5:38pm
The issues are bigger than any one person and systems are often set up to be not that sustainable (I don't mean that everyone has to fly, some do for work etc., but driving is harder to escape).
But if they are forever hammering on about people driving SUVs, and yet flying all over, yea you have to wonder. I guess we can be glad they don't fly every month, drive one person in an SUV, eat red meat every day, and have 4 kids, as that would be even worse than flying every month but ... :laff: I mean if they make efforts elsewhere at least that's good, though flying all the time is very unsustainable. Maybe a lot of it breaks down on income lines, the people who can fly internationally a few times a year, or locally every month, don't want to see how unsustainable that is because they are so used to it, and hey environmental destruction couldn't possibly impact them could it? It could, but at the same it's also bigger than them. Maybe they think they are pretty sheltered (this isn't necessarily true but they are used to money getting them out of problems).
Thank you for not flying.
I dislike flying in a major way. It’s just a miserable experience. A diving buddy is taking a job overseas for a couple of years and wants me to come over to dive the Red Sea with him. He doesn’t get that I really despise flying. Plus, I think the cost is just nuts.
The people I talked about in my post, yes, pound everyone about SUVs and everything else (especially plastic), yet off they go flying many times a year. They seem to mostly be European.
Teacher Terry
12-26-19, 7:54pm
I hate to fly but it’s a necessary evil to get to Europe. You can find great deals so it doesn’t have to be expensive.
The older I get the closer to home I like to travel. I have lived in the same area for over almost 50 years and am still finding new places to explore within a few hours drive. It helps to have varied interests.
I have a handful of friends who talk a strong climate crisis talk and have done some relatively major other things, like installing solar panels or going meatless. That I know of, none have made any effort to reduce frequent pleasure travel, whether it's driving or flying, and includes a fair amount of international travel. I consider it a disconnect, also.
frugal-one
12-26-19, 9:25pm
There comes a point where a person begins to realize they have a limited number of years left. I travel but am frugal and try to be conscious in other ways. If that is a disconnect, so be it!!
I think the most correct description to me is cognitive dissonance.
ToomuchStuff
12-27-19, 3:14am
It is just the age old saying......
Do as I say, not as I do.
I feel some people fetishize travel as some wonderful lifechanging experience. In terms of self-discovery, wherever you go or don't go, there you are. In terms of discovering other cultures, if you live in a nation of immigrants you can do that at home by widening your social circle.
rosarugosa
12-27-19, 6:58am
I guess I don't see a really big disconnect here. It reminds me of how some people are frugal in some areas so they have money to spend in other areas. Just for the sake of discussion, don't boats use a lot of fuel? I mainly walk for recreation, but if someone else wants to scuba dive or fly, maybe they are making less of an environmental impact than I am in some other areas, who knows. I agree with Jep on the local travel, but maybe that is because we both live in New England, which is so awesome. :) Seriously, for me it has been mainly a matter of simplicity and not using too much of my time in transit as opposed to having more time to spend at my destination (and of course the fact that there are so many great places to visit in this area).
catherine
12-27-19, 9:53am
I see the point in the disconnect between environmental concerns and flying for travel, but I don't generally agree with the judgmental way of looking at people who aren't 100% consistent with their behavior. I disagree with people calling out vegans who might own a leather belt. I disagree with my neighbor who criticized the previous owner of our house because "he claimed to be an environmentalist but he used a riding lawn mower." Or, what about me, who drives a Prius and doesn't turn down business travel.
We can only do the best we can do and make reasonable compromises. We can't all be Greta and travel by wind-powered vessel to make a point. And, just like Derrick Jensen says, focusing on "taking shorter showers" dismisses and absolves the systemic, industrial causes of environmental degradation.
As for travel, local travel is fine. I do think international travel sharpens awareness of different cultures in a way that "armchair traveling" cannot. It can broaden your perspective and break down nationalistic myopia. I'm not saying everyone should travel, but I think there are valuable benefits.
Teacher Terry
12-27-19, 11:15am
I can’t explore castles, ancient ruins, churches that are thousands of years old by expanding my social circle or staying in the states. There’s something unique about a civilization much older than ours. The food is totally different than for instance what is considered Italian food in the states.
I can’t explore castles, ancient ruins, churches that are thousands of years old by expanding my social circle or staying in the states. There’s something unique about a civilization much older than ours. The food is totally different than for instance what is considered Italian food in the states.
In the specific example I’ve seen, there are people who are wailing about destruction of the environment, the condition of coral reefs, and marine species, yet they are ignoring the diving in their backyard and are going thousands of miles via plane.
We can only do the best we can do and make reasonable compromises. We can't all be Greta and travel by wind-powered vessel to make a point. Although her point may have been better taken if her handlers hadn't flown the captain to the US from Europe. Being an environmental scold while maintaining an environmentalist posture requires better logistics than we've seen so far.
Scold is a good way of putting it. I’m just getting rather sick of being scolded on environmental stuff by Europeans. We even get it at work with visitors from overseas going off on it.
catherine
12-27-19, 12:00pm
Although her point may have been better taken if her handlers hadn't flown the captain to the US from Europe. Being an environmental scold while maintaining an environmentalist posture requires better logistics than we've seen so far.
My DH was telling me about a town hall meeting with Bernie Sanders that took place in CA and one of the audience members chided Sanders on the air travel it took him to cross the country for the meeting. Sanders' response was just a simple "What did you want me to do--walk?" I liked that straightforward, pragmatic response. I think Greta is doing everything she can do within current constraints and her overall goal of raising awareness--yes, logistically it's almost impossible to achieve 100% consistency between belief and behavior, unfortunately.
ApatheticNoMore
12-27-19, 12:39pm
My DH was telling me about a town hall meeting with Bernie Sanders that took place in CA and one of the audience members chided Sanders on the air travel it took him to cross the country for the meeting. Sanders' response was just a simple "What did you want me to do--walk?" I liked that straightforward, pragmatic response. I think Greta is doing everything she can do within current constraints and her overall goal of raising awareness--yes, logistically it's almost impossible to achieve 100% consistency between belief and behavior, unfortunately.
I won't even put this in the same category as leisure and pleasure travel. It's travel to try to make an impact much bigger than abstaining from travel could, it's not comparable to traveling because you want to see Paris. Of course none of that may succeed, we're not exactly getting much success with the issue after all, and then one can wonder what good the travel is if it's just to make an impact that doesn't end up being made. But this requires an ability to predict the future and if one accepts it entirely it requires an 100% fatalistic attitude pretty much (which I understand but ...): which is nothing will ever get done no matter how bad it gets.
But I can't make the impact of some famous person trying to change the political and social circumstances by traveling all over all the time, it's not reality - duh. I'm likely to make more of an impact traveling to city hall if anything. Even if I became a politician - one starts local usually.
For me, it's balancing conservation with enjoying life. We don't travel abroad. We have a gorgeous country that needs to be seen and experienced 1 state at a time. We live in the West so out here, it's a lot of driving sometimes. We'll fly 1000 miles and then rent a car to experience the area. We are working our way east so there will be more flights in the future but we will stay/travel there for longer periods of time 10-20 days rather than long weekends. We've seen some pieces of the East via work trips during which we joined each other and added vacation days to take it in: DC, Atlanta, Philadelphia, Boston, NOLA, Nashville. So some history-rich locations have already been explored.
I could drivel on forever about seeing our country so I'll just go ahead and stop now.:)
Teacher Terry
12-27-19, 1:22pm
We have been to most of the states. The US is accessible and most of Europe is not so the time to go is when you are physically able. I went to Thailand 20 years ago and it’s like a different world. You can’t get that experience here. After our upcoming trip we will have been to 7 countries. My son has been to 28 and my DIL 43. They live and work to travel.
Because of fossil fuel use, the climate has been negatively impacted with carbon emissions from power generation, motorized transport, advanced agriculture with machinery...
BUT
Because of fossil fuel, many, many more people are traveling, seeing and valuing the diversity of other countries and cultures, more food is being produced, electricity is readily available, technology has advanced so rapidly with computers, exploration, development...
It seems that a balance of both points of view are required, rather than an either/or.
I do agree with Tradd that if one makes a big deal of the negative impact of another's activities on climate change in one aspect of our world but ignores the impact of climate change from one's own actions on another aspect, it does seem hypocritical.
The bottom line is we all need to cut back on our use of fossil fuels in whatever way we live our lives. The trick is choosing what changes we ought to make and then actually doing it.
ApatheticNoMore
12-27-19, 1:56pm
I believe the climate crisis is not only real but catastrophic, and that we will see unimaginable horrors from it, the living may envy the dead (the old will die of old age, the young may die of climate change). It's already reality, is anyone following the fires on Austalia? Billions will die of climate change. The house is on fire.
And there is very little that feels like effective action maybe, and surprise, surprise, one lives in industrial civilization. But there is no way I'm going to participate in it even more in order to take a vacation. Live simply that others may simply live :). I don't fly, there are of course hypothetical circumstances in which I would, but not being present concerns I'd cross that bridge if I came to it.
There are a ton of people in the U.S. who either don't think man man climate change is real, or do but are unwilling to make any lifestyle changes. The rest of us are at least trying in our own ways, but any real shame belongs in the other categories of climate change attitudes. I suspect there are other lifestyle changes that would have a bigger impact than air travel, it's just one of the things on the list of things a person can do.
I traveled enough for work that the ordeal of airports, restaurant food, motel beds, and standing in lines to gawk at tourist attractions has absolutely no appeal any more. I still do some limited travel to see family and friends, but like others I don't think I'll tire or run out of local wonders to see and experience.
I believe what the IPCC is saying is a 50% reduction in global carbon emissions by 2030 and net zero by 2050. And that is just to keep things from going from bad to really bad. That's not going to come without some sacrifices.
We had a guy from the UK going on and on about all the SUVs in our parking lot, why weren’t we taking public transit, car pooling, etc.? Mind you, this is a business visitor from one of our UK offices. It was highly inappropriate for him to be going on like he was. We had to explain that there is little public transit outside the boundaries Chicago. The nearest bus stop is about a half mile away and only goes to a transit center that feeds into Chicago. When you go suburb you suburb, there is almost no public transit.
Later I was talking to someone else from that UK office and I was asked if so and so had visited. After I replied yes, I was told the guy who visited drives a big Land Rover, without saying saying anything about the visit.
Some trips I burn less gas flying than driving. Since I can fly somewhat direct to key west I burn less than 30 gal of fuel round trip, and it only takes me a little over a hour. The Drive is 5 1/2 hour and I would use around 35 in my jeep.
i can get around 14-15 mpg going 175 mph in the plane. I can do better if I slow down a little. The jeep gets 18 going 70.
At the prices It cost to fly these days on commercial flights, I have to think the fuel used per mile is not that bad. Most flights of any distance i spend a little more on fuel than what two tickets would cost. I would assume most flights are full with what they charge. So fuel used per mile/ per person has to be figured in.
whats awful is how much fuel some boats use. I’m looking at boats that are only around 30’ and they get around 1 mile per gallon. And they are not that fast, 30-40 mph cruise.
Teacher Terry
12-27-19, 4:19pm
Our RV only gets 10 mpg. If you don’t go a long distance no big deal but the point for us was long trips. With any luck it will be sold by spring.
Our RV only gets 10 mpg. If you don’t go a long distance no big deal but the point for us was long trips. With any luck it will be sold by spring.We were getting 9-10 mpg in ours as well. Now that it's been replaced we're getting about 13 mpg in the diesel pickup while towing the camper. Surprisingly, we're also getting about 28 mpg when not towing.
I'm not gonna get too distressed about our carbon footprint and I promise not to give anyone else a hard time about theirs as long as they don't get all preachy.
The food is totally different than for instance what is considered Italian food in the states.
I've eaten in the North End in Boston and I - and people who've been to Italy - disagree.
I've eaten in the North End in Boston and I - and people who've been to Italy - disagree.
Oh yes, the food there was AMAZING!!!!
Teacher Terry
12-27-19, 8:12pm
I only have one life which is getting shorter by the minute so intend to do the things that I really value. My DIL’s Polish family is throwing a big party for us.
ApatheticNoMore
12-28-19, 1:35am
I've eaten in the North End in Boston and I - and people who've been to Italy - disagree.
also things called cookbooks, youtube cooking demos, italian food websites (I admit for some it might be better to speak the language but google translate may suffice). True one may never have access to 100% of the ingredients but oh well, if so it's nothing one will ever be able to replicate here anyway, which I find the whole point of learning about food, to add such knowledge and recipes to my cooking.
Teacher Terry
12-28-19, 11:07am
Alan, definitely no preaching from me. For us it was the cost because we could take our car, get there faster and spend less money on gas and stay in a motel. We found that to be more enjoyable.
frugal-one
12-28-19, 8:29pm
I think the most correct description to me is cognitive dissonance.
Had to look that up.....and ,NO! I have no anxiety or mixed feelings about flying.
frugal-one
12-28-19, 8:35pm
I feel some people fetishize travel as some wonderful lifechanging experience. In terms of self-discovery, wherever you go or don't go, there you are. In terms of discovering other cultures, if you live in a nation of immigrants you can do that at home by widening your social circle.
It IS A WONDERFUL LIFE CHANGING experience! You, obviously have not traveled or you would realize this. Seeing immigrants in this country is not comparable! I realize some people are not willing to go outside their comfort zone.
I have travelled abroad when I was younger. It was fun but seeing tourist sites is not a wonderful life changing experience, and quick tours where your interactions with the locals revolve around them earning a living off your tourist dollars are shallow. It is different if you are living abroad for an extended period of time, or if you get to know immigrants and their culture in your home country for an extended period of time.
Reverse the situation. Do you think a tourist hanging out in Times Square and other tourist traps for a week or two, especially one whose English is limited to non-existent, would have a wonderful, life changing experience of American culture?
I only have one life which is getting shorter by the minute so intend to do the things that I really value. My DIL’s Polish family is throwing a big party for us.
A wholly different experience. When 18, I spent 31 days in The Netherlands. We emigrated from there when I was just 5 months old. The trip was full immersion. Family to take me places and see the real country-not the tourist trap country. Seeing and experiencing what was important to my cousins. Staying with family all but 2 nights.
Not at all the "1000 places to see before you Die" version of travel abroad.
I've traveled just enough to realize I don't really like to. I've opined before that if I could be magically teleported to a faraway location where I could live long enough to hone my language skills, I'd probably enjoy myself--but that's not going to happen.
iris lilies
12-28-19, 9:52pm
I love certain travel experiences, not so much others. I dont find travel “ life changing” but the good experiences are fun and interesting. I leave those place with great visual memories. I like architecture and cityscapes, local history, local foods. I like the variety of those things you get in Europe and Asia.
When it comes to natural landscapes, I would just as soon sit back and look at videos and slides. I don’t need to be there with my feet on the ground to experience them, a screen is fine.
I love to travel but I have no interest in other cultures, I figure that I don't necessarily represent whatever culture people may associate me with any better than the average citizen of somewhere else does. I've found that most people who speak of loving other cultures also spend a great deal of time banning statues and monuments, canceling otherwise classical literature and re-naming things to accommodate their interests of the moment, so I don't necessarily want to learn more about the things they allow to remain. I do like history and unique and interesting places and things, the more the better.
Teacher Terry
12-28-19, 11:01pm
I loved to travel when I didn’t have relatives in Europe. We will only be with them for 3 days out of 31. We aren’t into 5 countries in 10 days. We have spent 2 weeks in Tuscany and 2 weeks in Rome. We like to explore smaller places for longer periods of time.
frugal-one
12-28-19, 11:08pm
I have travelled abroad when I was younger. It was fun but seeing tourist sites is not a wonderful life changing experience, and quick tours where your interactions with the locals revolve around them earning a living off your tourist dollars are shallow. It is different if you are living abroad for an extended period of time, or if you get to know immigrants and their culture in your home country for an extended period of time.
Reverse the situation. Do you think a tourist hanging out in Times Square and other tourist traps for a week or two, especially one whose English is limited to non-existent, would have a wonderful, life changing experience of American culture?
You said you traveled over 50 years ago. I have traveled to over 40 countries and have been to some places where they have never seen a white person. They asked to take my picture. I said yes, if I could take theirs. I have not been a “tourist” but more like an advocate for the USA. And yes, traveling IS a life altering experience. Even visiting the natural sites of our national parks is life altering!
Teacher Terry
12-28-19, 11:43pm
Wow frugal that’s a lot of countries. People get it or they don’t.
ApatheticNoMore
12-29-19, 7:58am
One can study a culture without traveling and probably learn just as much about it as by traveling to tourist destinations. I suppose it's more work. Tell me can 6-7 BILLION or more people (and believe me I'm for zero population growth) take international vacations every year or even every few years and that is somehow expected to work? It won't!
Neither would other things like all those people driving, sure but they are much harder to change somewhere where everything is built around cars is the thing (anyone who doesn't drive at all and flies though I can kind of see how this would offset. If one is willing to put up with bus service the other hundreds of days a year to fly I really think it is no higher carbon usage. I don't doubt that a few who fly live that way. But unfortunately this is very rare, most people who fly also drive and everything else and the whole combination ..). There is low hanging fruit and stuff that's really hard to change. The low hanging fruit is the easy stuff like not flying IMO.
You said you traveled over 50 years ago. I have traveled to over 40 countries and have been to some places where they have never seen a white person. They asked to take my picture. I said yes, if I could take theirs. I have not been a “tourist” but more like an advocate for the USA. And yes, traveling IS a life altering experience. Even visiting the natural sites of our national parks is life altering!
I never said I travelled over 50 years ago.
Interesting that you equate having your picture taken since you are white and a novelty as being an "advocate for the USA." If you were African-American, Latinx, Native American or Asian-American would you still have been an advocate?
iris lilies
12-29-19, 10:12am
We have stayed with relatives many times in Switzerland and in Scotland. A few years ago DH traveled to Switzerland with his sister for about two weeks and spent less there than I spent in a long weekend in Florida. Switzerland is EXPENSIVE but his relatives loaned him a car and put him up at night and fed him several times.
There are not the bed and breakfast Inns in Switzerland all over that one finds in the UK, although Air b n b. May have changed that Swiss scene. Their houses are big there so they would have room for guests.
Teacher Terry
12-29-19, 11:43am
IL, anything you recommend we see in Scotland? APN, not flying is not low hanging fruit. When we worked we didn’t get enough vacation to drive across the country to see my mom. Now retired we sometimes drive but it’s exhausting and usually cheaper to fly with gas, motels, etc plus safer. Many more people are flying internationally than ever because the price of tickets have gotten so cheap. A a bunch of people on a plane probably is better than everyone of them driving. I would love for us to have high speed trains like Europe does.
rosarugosa
12-29-19, 12:00pm
I don't think everyone's low hanging fruit is the same, and I think travel can be life-changing for some folks but not everyone. We are all different.
ApatheticNoMore
12-29-19, 12:36pm
I consider it low hanging compared to:
- not driving (maybe easy in less than a handful of cities in the U.S. (NYC, San Fran, maybe Boston and Chicago proper), possible with much hardship,as in taking twice as long to get anywhere and less reliable, in other cities, not likely possible outside of cities).
- compared to becoming vegan (hard for me and hard on my body - I'm not vegan and I'm not likely to be, I don't mind vegetarian foods, I eat dead animals too, although red meat only like once a month).
- compared to doing without heating and cooling entirely (of course this apartment building has zero insulation typical of apartments around here - so drafty as can be in winter and hot in summer).
- and etc. things like that (the first two usually make suggestion lists of the best things to do to reduce your carbon footprint, only they are so hard to actually do IMO. The doing without heating and cooling isn't usually recommended as taken to *extremes* even in a mild climate it's risky).
Other low hanging things I'm pretty good at. But yea it might differ, some things I find hard others don't.
Flying to see family is a lot less low hanging than flying purely to take a vacation.
A lot of ways to go green involve monetary expenditures. Vacationing close to home saves money while also benefiting the environment.
Teacher Terry
12-29-19, 12:47pm
I would guess that not flying is more likely if people hate to travel. I doubt most people sacrifice for the environment. I know people like that. Or people that traveled so much for work that they are sick of it.
SteveinMN
12-29-19, 1:06pm
I have travelled abroad when I was younger. It was fun but seeing tourist sites is not a wonderful life changing experience, and quick tours where your interactions with the locals revolve around them earning a living off your tourist dollars are shallow. It is different if you are living abroad for an extended period of time, or if you get to know immigrants and their culture in your home country for an extended period of time.
I don't think it has to be a binary choice: "If this is Tuesday, this must be Belgium" trips or mini-residencies. True, if all one does is stay at the hotels that cater to travelers and eat at McDonald's and the Hard Rock Café and just gaze at the major sites from afar, a "life-changing" experience likely is not in the offing. But one can be in a country even briefly and get more of a feeling for it than you could from a coffee-table book or Trip Advisor.
I still remember very clearly my first visit outside the U.S., to Japan. I remember going through the clouds as we descended, seeing all the lights and signs in a language I did not know, and, for the first time in my life, lining up at immigration under the sign marked "Aliens". I remember visiting a restaurant there for dinner and not knowing any of the local customs. I remember figuring out the Japanese train system so we could visit Tokyo, even for just a few hours, and walking the streets of Akihabara and the Ginza and realizing that the Shiseido store looked just like Macy's back home. That wasn't a long trip at all but it was long enough to leave a deep impression that reading books and Web sites would never have given me.
I think the key is to get off the highly-beaten track and talk to people. On our recent cruise, people got off the ship, got on the cruise-chartered bus, and went to Blarney Castle. We got off the ship and wandered through the part of town by the port; admittedly not deep into Ireland, but we walked through grocery stores and sat at a coffee shop and listened to nearby conversations and talked to shopkeepers. Great insight into a culture? No, but at least a little, and nothing the Blarney tourers ever got to see.
SteveinMN
12-29-19, 1:14pm
IL, anything you recommend we see in Scotland?
Not IL, but we loved our tour of the Highlands. Beautiful country and it's a little sad to see it chewed up bit by bit as "bedroom communities". A friend of mine and I visited a whisky museum in Edinburgh and participated in a whisky tasting, ate haggis at a local café, and visited the castle and cathedral. Glasgow has several museums of interest and is only about 50 miles from Edinburgh. Some friends of ours toured the Giant's Causeway and enjoyed seeing the rock formations. The people-watching pretty much everywhere was great (if you're into that kind of thing)! If we'd had more time I would have liked to visit a whisky distillery and the coastal areas, like Skye and Islay and who knows what else may have stricken our fancy? Getting to some places pretty much requires driving, though, so we'd need more time than we had on the cruise. A taste and enough to decide if we needed to return. :)
iris lilies
12-29-19, 1:19pm
IL, anything you recommend we see in Scotland? APN, not flying is not low hanging fruit. When we worked we didn’t get enough vacation to drive across the country to see my mom. Now retired we sometimes drive but it’s exhausting and usually cheaper to fly with gas, motels, etc plus safer. Many more people are flying internationally than ever because the price of tickets have gotten so cheap. A a bunch of people on a plane probably is better than everyone of them driving. I would love for us to have high speed trains like Europe does.
To see in Scotland? Edinburgh, I guess. The Royal Mile from the military castle, centuries old, to the royal palace, also centuries old, has a variety of touristy, shopping, and historical places of importance including the coffee shop where Jk Rowling wrote the first Harry Potter book. Eat lunch at The Witchery (dinner reservations are booked months in advance.)
Depends on what you like. I had a narrow focus on Scottish Baronial architecture, so every chance I got to see those small castles, I took. The last time we were in Scotland was ten years ago. DH, my brother and his wife, and my cousin made our own tour of largely places associated with The Stuarts. I was most charmed by Falkland Palace which I had never been to, its gardens and chapel. I also greatly enjoyed Stirling castle, a military castle complex with a renaissance building. It had been decades since I visited Stirling. On that trip I really gained appreciation of renaissance style.
I won’t be able to tell you anything that the tourist guides won’t mention.
catherine
12-29-19, 1:33pm
To see in Scotland? Edinburgh, I guess. The Royal Mile from the military castle, centuries old, to the royal palace, also centuries old, has a variety of touristy, shopping, and historical places of importance including the coffee shop where Jk Rowling wrote the first Harry Potter book. Eat lunch at The Witchery (dinner reservations are booked months in advance.)
Depends on what you like. I had a narrow focus on Scottish Baronial architecture, so every chance I got to see those small castles, I took. The last time we were in Scotland was ten years ago. DH, my brother and his wife, and my cousin made our own tour of largely places associated with The Stuarts. I was most charmed by Falkland Palace which I had never been to, its gardens and chapel. I also greatly enjoyed Stirling castle, a military castle complex with a renaissance building. It had been decades since I visited Stirling. On that trip I really gained appreciation of renaissance style.
I won’t be able to tell you anything that the tourist guides won’t mention.
I agree with IL.. review the tourist guides. I think Edinburgh Castle is a must-see in Edinburgh. If you're into castles, I also enjoyed Holyrood (I wanted to get to Stirling, but we never made it). If you don't mind heights you can climb up the Walter Scott monument (my MIL was able to climb up but needed to be carried down).
If you get out of town, the drives are beautiful. We drove up the west coast through Oban up through Glencoe which was just amazing--magical. I've never been to Loch Lomond, but is also supposed to be beautiful.
We never made it all the way up to the Scottish Highlands, but Aberdeen is supposed to be beautiful and of course there are whiskey distillery tours if you're into that kind of thing. If you have any interest in golf, visiting St. Andrews is interesting and it's a cute town to walk around.
Glasgow is another major city, and it's getting nicer and nicer, but it was never known to be a real tourist site because it's historically been an industrial town. There are some museums there--I'm a big fan of Charles Rennie MacIntosh, and there's a museum devoted to him there.
ApatheticNoMore
12-29-19, 2:00pm
I would guess that not flying is more likely if people hate to travel. I doubt most people sacrifice for the environment. I know people like that. Or people that traveled so much for work that they are sick of it.
well it's hard to say as it's a continuum, only maybe the homeless are kinda sustainable.
Teacher Terry
12-29-19, 2:29pm
Thanks everyone for the tips on what to see. We are starting to make a list but will need to focus on just a few areas as we only have 6 days there and don’t want to spend too much time driving. We really want to see some castles. When we were in Rome besides seeing the main sights we walked the side streets and would go into some smaller churches. Also fun to eat at tiny restaurants that were Trattoria’s.
catherine
12-29-19, 2:46pm
Thanks everyone for the tips on what to see. We are starting to make a list but will need to focus on just a few areas as we only have 6 days there and don’t want to spend too much time driving. We really want to see some castles. When we were in Rome besides seeing the main sights we walked the side streets and would go into some smaller churches. Also fun to eat at tiny restaurants that were Trattoria’s.
Let's wait to see if Ishbel chimes in! I'm sure she'll have great ideas for sights as well as restaurants.
iris lilies
12-29-19, 8:44pm
I’ve spent time in the Highlands, I know Inverness pretty well in fact I probably stayed there longer than any other place in Scotland.Aberdeen area has the best small castles. Craigievar is fairytale perfection.
If I were going to Scotland and I liked castles I might make an effort to stay in a Scottish castle overnight. The problem is that so many of them are just hotels with a bit of castellated architecture. Others are just big houses. The two I would’ve highly recommended are now closed now to overnight guests. I think Castle Leven outside of Glasgow always look
s Extremely interesting but I cannot personally recommend it.
frugal-one
12-29-19, 8:54pm
I never said I travelled over 50 years ago.
Interesting that you equate having your picture taken since you are white and a novelty as being an "advocate for the USA." If you were African-American, Latinx, Native American or Asian-American would you still have been an advocate?
Went back and you stated you are still checking out places where you have lived for 50 years.
You, obviously, missed the point! I was something they were not used to seeing. Any nationality unique to them could have been an advocate. Why are you making a big deal out of my being white? That was not the issue.
frugal-one
12-29-19, 9:02pm
Wow frugal that’s a lot of countries. People get it or they don’t.
My thought is those people do not like to be out of their comfort zone OR have not found the type of travel they would enjoy.
Went back and you stated you are still checking out places where you have lived for 50 years.
You, obviously, missed the point! I was something they were not used to seeing. Any nationality unique to them could have been an advocate. Why are you making a big deal out of my being white? That was not the issue.
You are the one who wrote the people you encountered had never seen a white person, not that they had never seen an American. It seems you conflate the two terms since you said this made you "an advocate for the USA".
frugal-one
12-30-19, 8:01am
You are the one who wrote the people you encountered had never seen a white person, not that they had never seen an American. It seems you conflate the two terms since you said this made you "an advocate for the USA".
Being an American was not the issue, being white was. Americans come in all colors. And, yes, I felt that made me an advocate.
JaneV2.0
12-30-19, 10:37am
I don't think everyone's low hanging fruit is the same, and I think travel can be life-changing for some folks but not everyone. We are all different.
Thank you. I don't need to be told I don't "get it."
As far as veganism being somehow a solution to environmental woes, I don't buy it. Eating local, pasture-raised meat (and produce) is a lot more ethical than turning acres over to pesticide-saturated monocrops (like soy), then trucking the resulting product all over the country, IMO. That said, I don't pretend to be a locavore.
Heard on BBC Radio this morning (I listen online) that some UK media travel editor is giving up flying for 2020.
ApatheticNoMore
12-30-19, 12:22pm
Thank you. I don't need to be told I don't "get it."
maybe they don't get the climate crisis. I mean we have here ridiculous claims: that there is no way to be out of one's comfort zone, that doesn't involve massive carbon usage (for a world population of 7 some billion that can't all live that way or we are screwed). That there is no way to expand one's mind and knowledge and horizons that doesn't involve massive carbon usage (again to a world population of 7 some billion that can't all live that way, or we will fry the planet several thousand times over - and truth is I am not an optimist as is about the situation). One may be into expanding their comfort zone and horizons or not, and whatever, but to see only high resource use ways to get there ... is not the right direction, we need to get as much human flourishing as possible with as little resource use as possible.
Honestly though if human beings were not so into expanding their comfort zone etc. etc. - endless growth (iow if they were neanderthals and homo sapiens had not come along - they were probably smarter than us but they were not so much explorers it seems) maybe we wouldn't be headed on the road to human extinction and biosphere collapse. Maybe Neanderthals could have lived successfully on earth.
As far as veganism being somehow a solution to environmental woes, I don't buy it. Eating local, pasture-raised meat (and produce) is a lot more ethical than turning acres over to pesticide-saturated monocrops (like soy), then trucking the resulting product all over the country, IMO. That said, I don't pretend to be a locavore.
most research does show vegetarianism to be somewhat better (but it really depends, veganism yes, vegetarianism, it gets complex because dairy is pretty high impact and it's a go-to for vegetarians - hey I love my cheese and I'm not even vegetarian, so ...).
But someone needs to keep the grass-fed beef producers in business I figure haha :) I do believe some animal agriculture can be integrated into food production, so once a month or so I'll have my red meat. Pretty minimal already.
Teacher Terry
12-30-19, 12:27pm
APN, if you won a million dollars are you telling me you still wouldn’t fly to take a international trip?
catherine
12-30-19, 12:35pm
Honestly though if human beings were not so into expanding their comfort zone etc. etc. ....maybe we wouldn't be headed on the road to human extinction and biosphere collapse. Maybe Neanderthals could have lived successfully on earth.
I agree... but I have no faith that humans would willingly sacrifice comforts they've grown accustomed to, or turn down greater comforts. My son's saying-- "a luxury once tasted becomes a necessity" --applies here.
I was a vegetarian for a long time, partly based on the environmental impact argument, but my thoughts have shifted. Silvopasture contributes to a healthy ecology, for instance. I read an interesting book called Defending Beef, written by a vegetarian whose husband raises livestock for consumption, and it provided some interesting perspectives. So eating local, grass-fed beef is a reasonable option.
I think that buying locally produced grass fed animal products is a reasonable alternative to vegan or vegetarian. Similarly that buying carbon credits to off set travel is not prefect but also a reasonable alternative to pleasure travel. The David Suzuki Foundation, which I believe has a reasonable list of 10 things to do to stop climate change says, "fly less" and if you do, offset the emissions.
I have traveled plenty in my times and some of the experiences have certainly been live enhancing. I just feel like I've used up personal travel allotment. My travel bucket list has become short and the marginal benefits are decreasing. I am fortunate for living in an area where people from all over the world come to visit and shorter road trips are my current plan, even if I won a million bucks. To think that travel is an inalienable right does not jive with me.
ApatheticNoMore
12-30-19, 1:14pm
APN, if you won a million dollars are you telling me you still wouldn’t fly to take a international trip?
no, but there are probably situations I would, if bf wanted to (but he's not into it either - what we actually do together sometimes is go to climate activities! He's sometimes been almost in tears over some bad new climate news). A few other reasons.
So there is a non-zero possibility, I end up taking an international trip or two or so before my life is over (whether I die of a ripe old age, disease (that all flesh is heir to), or sadly and I give it some REAL possibility - and far greater of a possibility for the young - die of CLIMATE CHANGE itself). But flying is not something I do by and large. And I don't see how if we get everything we are accustomed to now, we have much chance. Things need to change.
frugal-one
12-31-19, 9:33pm
APNM,,,..Honestly though if human beings were not so into expanding their comfort zone etc. etc. - endless growth (iow if they were neanderthals and homo sapiens had not come along - they were probably smarter than us but they were not so much explorers it seems) maybe we wouldn't be headed on the road to human extinction and biosphere collapse. Maybe Neanderthals could have lived successfully on earth.
All I can say is... oh, brother! As you stated previously, you would travel internationally if given the opportunity.
We had a guy from the UK going on and on about all the SUVs in our parking lot, why weren’t we taking public transit, car pooling, etc.? Mind you, this is a business visitor from one of our UK offices. It was highly inappropriate for him to be going on like he was. We had to explain that there is little public transit outside the boundaries Chicago. The nearest bus stop is about a half mile away and only goes to a transit center that feeds into Chicago. When you go suburb you suburb, there is almost no public transit.
"Oh yes, Mr. Fullerborgensonpatelyevski, I know! Terrible! Isn't it horrible how thoughtless people can be, doing things like flying everywhere?" :devil:
whats awful is how much fuel some boats use. I’m looking at boats that are only around 30’ and they get around 1 mile per gallon. And they are not that fast, 30-40 mph cruise.
They should invent some kind of wind-powered boat ... ... ... :~)
Our RV only gets 10 mpg. If you don’t go a long distance no big deal but the point for us was long trips. With any luck it will be sold by spring.Yep. When I was actually living in my small RV, I had a smaller footprint than being in my apartment - everything about the living space is designed for minimal resource use. But once that wasn't the case and it was purely a matter of dragging 10,000 pounds of "convenience" around the country for fun, bad news.
I have to admit ... sigh. Yes, it's true. What I truly love about travel is the absolute cluster-**** moments. The omg, this is a disaster of a lifetime (but not quite life threatening, of course) moments. The ridiculous. The triumph of turning messes into the best and most memorable experiences. I think it's the sense of fierce and amazed joy that comes from finding the answer hidden in the poo-pile, and that answer is usually about bonding with strangers. I'm the person you'll find convulsing in belly laughs because we have now passed that same Italian man and his Airedale four times as we search for the elusive entrance to a fabled parking area, he actually waved to me this time. My tent collapses in the rain and I wind up sleeping more or less in the trunk of my car and realize in the morning that it's gotten quiet because the rain changed to a foot of snow. All roads, I can tell you, sometimes lead to Corpus Christi, whether you planned to go there or not.
It's very strange. In my everyday life I seek order and organization and I have no desire for chaos. I Strive for peace and quiet and routine. But once in a while, these crazy moments add the spice I need. And adding in a language barrier, and being able to exchange what I have plus gratitude for truly unique solutions people offer up, giving them a chance to help and giving me a chance to experience something one of a kind ... yeah. I'll turn down the heat and drive a Prius and make a deal with God to avoid paper OR plastic and have a no-spend day once a week and buy pretty much everything from A to Z second hand, but sometimes ... I'm gonna fly.
ToomuchStuff
1-3-20, 2:59am
They should invent some kind of wind-powered boat ... ... ... :~)
Maybe something not made with petroleum, like the Navy's oldest boat.
Teacher Terry
1-3-20, 12:05pm
When I fly somewhere I am always in a good mood going because of the anticipation of the trip. Coming home I am tired and just want to be home. On one forum I belong to many people are doing a ton of traveling frequently. We only go once or twice a year so still very exciting.
I think kib's onto something. My cousin used to "enjoy" traveling, and always had a tale to tell. She was stuck on a chair lift for hours, all her belongings were stolen, she seemed to encounter an inordinate number of "unsavory" foreigners. I wondered why she kept at it, but maybe it was to supply her with fodder for anecdotes.
Awww... it's a balancing act. If something really went wrong and I lost a leg or found my bank accounts emptied, it would of course be not only devastating but incredibly stupid of me. But this ... compartmentalized chaos helps remind me that I'm pretty strong, without actually putting me at risk. Winding up in Corpus Christi instead of Carlsbad Caverns isn't actually important, and it's not necessarily terrible. It's a challenge I can triumph over.
ETA: going at least halfway back to the original post, the extreme number of potential unknowns in travel, plus the fact that what happens in Corpus Christi tends to stay there, can make it the perfect venue for shaking things up without risk of permanent damage.
I was watching part of "The Ganges" with Sue Perkins on India yesterday. Talk about finding "the answer hidden in the poo-pile". The journalist not only stepped in some, but saw tons of raw sewage pouring into the Ganges River, with coliform bacteria counts millions of times higher than the acceptable range, and people including children swimming in that. It smelled so bad she wore a mask. Maybe your next destination kib?
Teacher Terry
1-5-20, 12:05pm
My kids have been to India and after their description I wouldn’t go. Actually Thailand was beautiful but the river horribly polluted and it stunk. The air was bad also. Now I stick to Europe. My husband wanted to see Australia and New Zealand but now with all the fires probably not worth it. My kids saw an outdoor crematory with the bodies exposed. Dead children and pregnant women are thrown into the river which supplies their drinking water.
My kids have been to India and after their description I wouldn’t go. Actually Thailand was beautiful but the river horribly polluted and it stunk. The air was bad also. Now I stick to Europe. My husband wanted to see Australia and New Zealand but now with all the fires probably not worth it. My kids saw an outdoor crematory with the bodies exposed. Dead children and pregnant women are thrown into the river which supplies their drinking water.
I guess that's what people mean by "experiencing different cultures." Closest I'll come to India was reading City of Joy (which I highly recommend--it's fiction, but doesn't read like it--a high compliment from me.)
My kids have been to India and after their description I wouldn’t go.
My son spent 9 days in India and loved it. (different strokes for different folks I guess). His only unpleasant experience was getting sick after eating an egg salad sandwich he bought on the train to Agra to see the Taj Mahal. I am definitely not averse to going.
Teacher Terry
1-5-20, 4:06pm
My kids enjoyed the experience. I wouldn’t go after hearing about it. My oldest son and his wife spent a month there. My youngest son got sick so many times he lasted 3 weeks and then moved onto Vietnam which was a step up. Plus with my asthma and the poor air quality I cannot go to that part of the world.
We spent 33 days in India in 1991. A life changing experience. So many things happened: Bush started a war that began and ended while we were there, our airline PanAm went bankrupt but still got us home, etc. It was a British "adventure" tour that I would probably never suggest anyone else try but we survived without getting sick and got home safely. But as the trip went on, I ate less and less adventurous food. Hot veggie cuisine was safest.
I agree that City of Joy is a must read but do not see the movie. The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel movie is pretty good. The only thing you dont get is the smells.
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