What I consider a sane idea to reduce police brutality......

[gimmethesimplelife]

What do you'all think of this idea? I propose some kind of limit as to how long one can serve as a police officer period....in exchange for the following delicious perk: Quicker access to full pensions.

My take is that such might reduce some wear and tear on LEO's - and despite their many, many, many (expletive)ups, it is true that they do encounter some of the dregs of society. I can see that this would cause similar wear and tear as I've experienced knowing them for what they are/can be and living in appropriate fear of them. It is true that they do encounter dangerous situations where force is indeed necessary - and it must be draining on them that they have to follow the law more closely due to smartphones video and the open invitation their behavior often presents for large dollar lawsuits....in other words, they can't get away with as much as they once could. Power being flattened via insistence on human rights must be draining when they (expletive) up and in the cases where their behavior is indeed appropriate and in accordance with the law - lots of such situations over years? Even I can see where this leads to burnout.

So my idea is to cap how long one can be an officer in return for the juicy pension perk sooner - and I'd even be willing to pay between 10 and 15 percent more in taxes to save innocent human lives - to me human life is worth this. Anyway, beyond the politics here if possible - what do you'all make of the general idea?

I will close by saying I ran this by a few prolific activists in the 85006 and I was disappointed....their take was that the police are no more deserving of a pension or union than an average American citizen is. That's another post for another time......but I still believe some form of my idea, possibly tweaked a bit, might help the problem? Rob

[Teacher Terry]

They already can retire with full pensions after 20 years just like firefighters and prison guards. That’s short enough.

[Yppej]

I think there are other things that could be done, such as better provision of counseling services and rotation of duties, e.g. desk and beat, and amongst easier and more challenging patrols. Weeding out the bad apples, universal body cams, and other provisions to raise public confidence in officers would help good officers. The AFSCME union should work to make all public sector pensions transferrable so if someone is not cut out for policing they could work someplace else like the DPW to get their years in.

[ToomuchStuff]

You don't say how long.
You don't say then what your going to do, about and with the command structure. Are we going to have people with no experience, then trying to tell the officers, how to do things, and when they screw up a legal matter, by giving officers illegal instructions; ahem, huge settlements?
There are already attrition rate issues.

[flowerseverywhere]

I recall you working as a server and saying the extreme stress you were under. At times you may have been subject to verbal abuse and fear of losing your job. It was highly unlikely that you would be killed.

many of us have worked in law enforcement, are military veterans or have worked in professions where fear of bodily harm or death are real everyday occurances. In my case, I worked in mental health on locked units. I was never assaulted, but many of my colleagues were To this day, I am acutely aware of my surroundings, instinctively get away from people who give me bad vibes, avoid situations where alcohol and drugs are prevalent, know where room exits are etc. A childhood in abusive setting taught me how not to provoke, to stay in the background and blend in so as not to bring attention to myself.

Racism continues to be a factor, but I don’t see any evidence fewer years on the force with promise of a pension will help. If you are scared out of your wits and don’t have proper training, the risk of violence goes up. Many police shootings are by rookie officers as well.

many factors are to blame.
the proliferation of guns in our society.
our education funding system, which has poor school districts and rich school districts. It is very hard to rise above poverty without decent reading, writing and math skills.
the absence of two parent homes and teen pregnancy plays a big factor. Any parent can tell you how difficult it is to raise children with all the challenges out there when you have two parents and are middle class. Check out this chart of teen pregnancy by race.
https://www.cdc.gov/teenpregnancy/about/index.htm
drugs and gangs

so the solutions won’t lie in better pensions. Better access to a good education, less teen pregnancy, fewer drugs (thanks you Sackler family),fewer guns and better training. It’s not easy.

[Yppej]

Flowerseverywhere, how will the solutions you propose reduce pollce brutality?
Guns - are you saying they should be taken away from officers? British bobbies have traditionally not carried weapons, so this is an interesting idea but it would face massive resistance in the US.
Education funding - are you saying police academies are underfunded? Or could a different mix of courses including more de-escalation training work with the same funding?
Teen pregnancy and one parent homes - do a disproportionate number of officers have teen parents or single parents? If so how is this relevant to their ability to do their jobs?
Drugs and gangs - surely an officer with these issues would not be named to the force?

Or are you not writing about officers engaged in brutality, but blaming the victims of police brutality and the Sackler family?

[flowerseverywhere]

Yppej what I was saying is there is no easy solution like earlier pensions to the police brutality problem.
We have large segments of the population who lack decent basic education. Large segments who live in poverty. How are they supposed to be able to support themselves on the minimum wages as elsewhere discussed? And so many guns on the streets, not in the hands of responsible citizens, and drug use makes it very dangerous indeed for law enforcement.

There is no no simple solution, but steps to overcome some of the societal problems along with better police training could help. The OP proposal, earlier pensions don’t seem to me to be much of a deterrent for officers who are on the front lines making life and death decisions. Some officers. may have drug, alcohol or underlying problems from growing up in poverty, but I don’t see that as ever mentioned as a reason for police brutality. I meant these societal problems make it more dangerous for those on the front lines.

[kib]

Perhaps it would work to rotate LEOs through less stressful areas of law enforcement. Both time off from the stress and potentially weeding out applicants who's main interest in the job is an ego-supporting adrenaline ride. Knowing you have four months of court work or desk time coming every two years and this is not a punishment, it's just part of the job ...

[Yppej]

Yppej what I was saying is there is no easy solution like earlier pensions to the police brutality problem.
We have large segments of the population who lack decent basic education. Large segments who live in poverty. How are they supposed to be able to support themselves on the minimum wages as elsewhere discussed? And so many guns on the streets, not in the hands of responsible citizens, and drug use makes it very dangerous indeed for law enforcement.

There is no no simple solution, but steps to overcome some of the societal problems along with better police training could help. The OP proposal, earlier pensions don’t seem to me to be much of a deterrent for officers who are on the front lines making life and death decisions. Some officers. may have drug, alcohol or underlying problems from growing up in poverty, but I don’t see that as ever mentioned as a reason for police brutality. I meant these societal problems make it more dangerous for those on the front lines.

Is police brutality caused by the victims' lack of formal education? Is police brutality caused by victims' poverty? Or given the disproportionate number of people of color who are victims, is police brutality caused by the victims' blackness and brownness?

Of course not. Police brutality is caused by police. The solution is not to blame victims or gentrify them away but to hold both law enforcement institutions and individual rogue officers accountable. How many times have incidents made the news and investigative reporters uncover numerous previous complaints about the same officer but nothing was done?

[Alan]

Is police brutality caused by the victims' lack of formal education? Is police brutality caused by victims' poverty? Or given the disproportionate number of people of color who are victims, is police brutality caused by the victims' blackness and brownness?

Yes, I wouldn't rank them in any particular order or consider your list to be complete but all those things do contribute to brutality, sometimes involving police.

[Yppej]

Alan, you really think it is causation and not correlation? I thought you were more logical than that.

ETA we've gone from the devil made me to it to the poor person made me do it.

[Alan]

Alan, you really think it is causation and not correlation?
I think if you work in a brutal environment the urge to survive potentially deadly encounters may sometimes lead to unfortunate outcomes.

[Simplemind]

http://www.theruralbadge.com/2019/12/decide-what-you-want.html?fbclid=IwAR1H45qZGZWq3Ct_heTw4K99KNHOtno 0A4ViLAO3_RtzjENRtcv-EBNuZPc&m=1

I would take a seasoned officer over 10 newbies.

[flowerseverywhere]

http://www.theruralbadge.com/2019/12/decide-what-you-want.html?fbclid=IwAR1H45qZGZWq3Ct_heTw4K99KNHOtno 0A4ViLAO3_RtzjENRtcv-EBNuZPc&m=1

I would take a seasoned officer over 10 newbies.

An eloquent way of saying this is the reality folks. As long as we have so many guns on the street, lack of respect, and people trying to film officers to “catch them” and openly taunting them as I have seen in many videos things will continue as is. If only the good guys were the only ones with guns. No other civilized society has anywhere near the deaths we do here in the US. NRA and=money and influence on politicians= continued gun deaths from police and citizens.

[flowerseverywhere]

I think if you work in a brutal environment the urge to survive potentially deadly encounters may sometimes lead to unfortunate outcomes.
Absolutely true. When the streets are flooded with guns, alcohol and drugs it’s a jungle out there.

[Yppej]

Jungle implies wildness and wild animals. It comes across as dehumanizing. Let's not forget the connection between jungle and ape. Even President Obama was caricatured as an ape because of his race.

Also, where is this taunting? Tamir Rice was not taunting anyone, Eric Garner wasn't either he was asking to breathe, Philando Castile wasn't some "bad guy" he was a beloved employee at a school, and I could go on. People like Walter Scott and LaQuan McDonald weren't compliant, but they were running away and shot in the back.

Will earlier pensions solve this? I don't think so, but I applaud Rob for being an activist concerned about police brutality and trying to come up with solutions, and for avoiding racially charged language and stereotypes.

As to lack of respect, if that is enough to set an officer off to the point of killing someone I hope he or she never parents a teenager.

[Teacher Terry]

Totally agree Yppej.

[LDAHL]

Apart from the question of whether reducing the average time in service of police officers would reduce regrettable incidents, the old public finance guy in me wonders How such a measure would impact the ongoing viability of public pension systems. Many are badly underfunded as it is, and in fact may be significant contributors to the next financial crisis.

[kib]

Apart from the question of whether reducing the average time in service of police officers would reduce regrettable incidents, the old public finance guy in me wonders How such a measure would impact the ongoing viability of public pension systems. Many are badly underfunded as it is, and in fact may be significant contributors to the next financial crisis.Yes, this was what prompted my comment about interspersing active time as a LEO with more passive activities. I don't think it's financially feasible to shorten the work span, at least not within our current financial system, but it might be possible to shorten the amount of time people spend 'in the trenches'.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Jungle implies wildness and wild animals. It comes across as dehumanizing. Let's not forget the connection between jungle and ape. Even President Obama was caricatured as an ape because of his race.

Also, where is this taunting? Tamir Rice was not taunting anyone, Eric Garner wasn't either he was asking to breathe, Philando Castile wasn't some "bad guy" he was a beloved employee at a school, and I could go on. People like Walter Scott and LaQuan McDonald weren't compliant, but they were running away and shot in the back.

Will earlier pensions solve this? I don't think so, but I applaud Rob for being an activist concerned about police brutality and trying to come up with solutions, and for avoiding racially charged language and stereotypes.

As to lack of respect, if that is enough to set an officer off to the point of killing someone I hope he or she never parents a teenager.Thank You for the kind words, yppej. They are very much appreciated! Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Yes, this was what prompted my comment about interspersing active time as a LEO with more passive activities. I don't think it's financially feasible to shorten the work span, at least not within our current financial system, but it might be possible to shorten the amount of time people spend 'in the trenches'.I like your idea, kib, and this does seem more economically feasible, yes. As I said in my OP, I'm open to my general idea being tweaked. Whatever might yield results......Rob

[bae]

I have been involved in LEO training, off-and-on, for over 30 years now.

My purely anecdotal impression is that this career is not suitable for everyone. Lots of good folks enter the profession, and are nice and friendly and community-spirited. It seems there is this point, about 5-7 years into their career, when that changes for some street officers, and they become jaded, cynical, suspicious, and have cultivated an us-vs-them attitude, and a tribal bond with their fellow officers. I think I have some ideas about why this happens. Doesn't happen to all of them.

My other purely anecdotal tidbit is that many of the departments I have worked with had very little in the way of stress management programs in place. And a culture of heroism where it is "weak" or "unmanly" to reach out for help.

I am so glad that my fire/ems agency is very progressive on matters of stress management, addiction recovery/prevention, and other counseling support. And is very good about cultivating a culture in which it is OK, even expected, to ask for help, and not to be judged poorly for doing so.

I suspect LEOs would do well to rotate through various positions in their departments to help prevent burnout, family troubles, addiction troubles, suicide, abuse of power, and all sorts of things. And their departments need to examine their culture pretty closely.

Now, like the fire service, law enforcement is very tradition-bound and organizational change is tricky business.