View Full Version : What's the value of being Middle-Class?
Rainbow-Flame Mystic
2-3-20, 2:20pm
I ask because seeing that you have to work 40 to
50 hours/week and then I have to come home and
do chores too; it seems over-whelming. I already
have a hard enough time working 30 hours/week plus.
Personally, I don't want a family. I just want a
quiet life and am happy with a one-room studio.
iris lilies
2-3-20, 2:25pm
Then, dont. Dont be “middle class “ however you want to define it. And boy howdy do you have a soul mate on this board, if he stops in.
But you have to be able to support yourself, have to afford that studio apartment, because at a certain point in your life you are leaching off others who support you.
I live as simply as possible so it keeps the chore of maintaining to a minimum. I have the ability but I lack the desire.
Teacher Terry
2-3-20, 2:54pm
Most people manage their work and personal lives. If you want to work less move to a lower cost of living.
What is middle class? It's different in LA than it is in the rural Northwest.
It only matters if it matters to you.
Me? I opted to work my ass off for several decades to be able to retire at a very comfortable level in my mid-50s. It was worth it to me. 30h/week would have been a cakewalk for me. It sounds like your maximum. It will impact the lifestyle you can afford.
You've been soul searching here for awhile. Until you decide exactly what you want, you can't set goals to reach it. Then you have to decide how much work and effort you're willing to put in to reach that goal.
Edited to add: there is nothing wrong with resetting or downscaling goals. We did it many times. New car/old car. New house/older fixer-upper. Suits/sweats. Designer purse/whatever-who cares. Maturity helped with a lot of changes in need vs want. We don't need to keep up with anyone!
Not sure that the OP has correctly defined what being middle class even means. The definition of middle class has puzzled me often since about the only time I hear about middle class is prior to an election. Every candidate states that s/he is working hard to support the middle class.
What is middle class?
One value is you are less likely to be mistreated by others, be it in medical care, law enforcement, etc. But I think race still trumps class when it comes to things like that.
ApatheticNoMore
2-3-20, 4:15pm
One value is you are less likely to be mistreated by others, be it in medical care, law enforcement, etc. But I think race still trumps class when it comes to things like that.
I'm not going to say what is more important, but if we look at jobs, people at lower wage jobs often take a lot more abuse than middle class jobs. Yes sure we might know a middle class person with an abusive job of course, I'm talking on average though. So it is a plus of being middle class, you TEND to be treated better at work on average.
What's the value of being middle class in addition to often being treated better at work:
-- having better access to healthcare (it's still not a great healthcare system in the U.S. but...)
-- often having some paid time off benefits, like paid sick days and paid vacation, it may not be many, as the U.S. is not Europe. But it's something. A few states like California are starting to mandate everyone at least have a few paid sick days.
-- sometimes having a set work schedule (some low paid work does not have any set schedule at all)
-- not having to work MORE THAN one job to get by
-- having enough disposable income/savings to handle small scale crisis. So big car repair bills due to wear and tear or an accident, needing some medical care that costs something out of pocket, rent goes up this year, computer completely dies and need a new one, have to move for whatever reason (or want to, say the apartment has rats or neighbors from heck etc.) and that REQUIRES first and last month rent to be able to do so. All of this takes not living absolutely paycheck to paycheck. Having enough disposable income to deal with things by spending money basically. Occasionally these things are even self-soothing, I'm not much for retail therapy or even paying for therapy, but to even have the option is worth something.
I don't actually care how people live except how it affects others and the world, I'm just answering the question: there are advantages to being middle class.
I think it's more helpful to think in terms of being self-supporting than being middleclass. So if I were in my 20's or 30's, I wouldn't be gauging whether I wanted to live a middleclass existence--I'd be concentrating on can I support myself and anyone I choose to bring into my family?
I don't actually care how people live except how it affects others and the world, I'm just answering the question: there are advantages to being middle class.
But still, what is middle class?
Most people manage their work and personal lives. If you want to work less move to a lower cost of living.
Tricky business though, as many lower cost-of-living areas also have lower wages, and fewer job opportunities.
I sold off part of my grandfather's farm in rural Ohio a few years ago - the house and a few acres - for an incredibly low price. However, within a sane drive from the spot, there were very very few jobs available, so that depressed the price methinks. A 30-year mortgage to buy the property would have produced payments of ~$250/month for principle/interest. That doesn't sound like much, but, where would that income come from?
ApatheticNoMore
2-3-20, 4:51pm
I work a 40 hour week, I've seldom ever worked more. I manage but I'm real tired. I have lines I will and will not cross though. I'm not going to start eating processed food and take out and so on even though that's how some people manage. I try hard to make healthy food. But there are other chores I'm pretty lazy on. Adult-ing as the millenials call it, is hard. It's triage mostly.
I wonder also how folks set their expectations of what their lifestyle "should" be, these days?
I found it helpful to read the now old book, Your Money or Your Life. Many of the discussions will apply to anyone at any time in their life. Know what you are spending and how much it costs in life energy. Make decisions based on knowledge and not just what is popular or easy. Keep learning.
I found it helpful to read the now old book, Your Money or Your Life. Many of the discussions will apply to anyone at any time in their life. Know what you are spending and how much it costs in life energy. Make decisions based on knowledge and not just what is popular or easy. Keep learning.
Such great advice, Sweetana. I need to do the life energy calculations again now that I am working only part time.
Teacher Terry
2-3-20, 6:54pm
My middle son lives in Wichita Kansas making 10/hour and rents a nice apartment for 400. It’s a big city with tons of jobs. Plenty of places like this in the Midwest.
https://www.thestreet.com/personal-finance/what-is-middle-class-14833259
ToomuchStuff
2-4-20, 4:08am
I ask because seeing that you have to work 40 to
50 hours/week and then I have to come home and
do chores too; it seems over-whelming. I already
have a hard enough time working 30 hours/week plus.
Personally, I don't want a family. I just want a
quiet life and am happy with a one-room studio.
It doesn't matter if you work one hour a week, or 100, there will always be chores/life.
Family, really has nothing to do with middle class. Family is those your stuck with, as well as those you choose to be with.
As long as you can find a place you can afford, and work accordingly, and still build up a little bit of cushion, because life still happens, then what does it matter if your "middle class" or not.
As I stated in another thread, middle class is kind of a misnomer as it has been a moving goal. From a late neighbor and her daughter, middle class in the 50's, would have been a car (per family), a refrigerator (not ice box), a tv and if you were really well off, you had a/c.
In sociology, we learned that class was a conflation of income and certain indicators like level of education and values.
I found it helpful to read the now old book, Your Money or Your Life.
This book LITERALLY changed our lives! Evaluating every single penny spent? Priceless! Retiring early was suddenly fathomable and $ no longer controlled our lives rather, we controlled our $$$$
I can't say enough good things about this book!
I ask because seeing that you have to work 40 to
50 hours/week and then I have to come home and
do chores too; it seems over-whelming. I already
have a hard enough time working 30 hours/week plus.
Personally, I don't want a family. I just want a
quiet life and am happy with a one-room studio.
Why do you have a hard time only working 30 hours a week? Really?
It has nothing to do with family or class. You’re always going to have stuff to do at home.
Why do you have a hard time only working 30 hours a week? Really?
It has nothing to do with family or class. You’re always going to have stuff to do at home.
This is called Adulting...in the words of my 26yo niece. There is no magic. Time to decide on the life you want, the goals to get there, and start doing the work to achieve those goals and that life.
I spent decades working 60-70h/week to achieve my financial goals. 30h/w sounds like a vacation!!!!
ApatheticNoMore
2-4-20, 1:12pm
I've actually worked 30 hours a week, I did it for about 5 years, lived on it too, lucky and all that - sure I was. It was what I wanted then? Unequivocally. It would be what I want now if I could get it but I don't see a means to. But I have done 40 for near a decade since (with most jobs I have, they can ask overtime, they just tend not to. I did have one for about 5 years where they would occasionally call at 3am, but luckily that wasn't most days).
30 hours a week didn't leave me tired, it left me to have a social life and all that. 40 does leave me real tired (more so being in a relationship, I swear life was not such an insane rush when I was single, but that's the way it goes, clearly I want to be in this relationship). I don't think everyone has the same energy levels and doubly so if one has actual physical illness.
Teacher Terry
2-4-20, 1:39pm
Many people work 40 hours a week and come home and care for the kids, make dinner, etc. Once my kids were in school and activities I rarely had time for tv. Driving kids to activities, interacting with them at night, housekeeping filled my time. You have unrealistic expectations.
IMO, the unrealistic expectations mostly have to do with wanting to have no chores at home. There’s always going to be cooking, cleaning, laundry, paying the bills.
Also, if you think you’re going to get by on working 30 hours a week, it depends on where you live. You might end up having to rent a room somewhere rather than having a studio apartment.
You really need a reality check. Did your parents do everything at home when you were growing up? Your attitude smacks of someone who was spoiled and didn’t have to do squat at home.
IMO, the unrealistic expectations mostly have to do with wanting to have no chores at home. There’s always going to be cooking, cleaning, laundry, paying the bills.
Living on my own, it seems to be about a 1/2-time job just to manage the household:
- laundry
- marketing, cooking, doing dishes
- dusting, vacuuming, cleaning
- exercising and training the dog
- processing firewood
- house maintenance tasks
Oddly, it's less effort now, except for the cooking, than it was when I was not alone - somehow some of these things are more efficiently done by one person with one schedule, and with the need to only conform to one set of work standards. (For instance, who cares if clean socks and t-shirts live in the "now-clean" laundry basket for a couple of days...)
Living on my own, it seems to be about a 1/2-time job just to manage the household:
- laundry
- marketing, cooking, doing dishes
- dusting, vacuuming, cleaning
- exercising and training the dog
- processing firewood
- house maintenance tasks
Oddly, it's less effort now, except for the cooking, than it was when I was not alone - somehow some of these things are more efficiently done by one person with one schedule, and with the need to only conform to one set of work standards. (For instance, who cares if clean socks and t-shirts live in the "now-clean" laundry basket for a couple of days...)
Bae, I often live out of the dryer. :D
Bae, I often live out of the dryer. :D
I confess to having simplified my life by purchasing an additional laundry basket as well :-)
ApatheticNoMore
2-4-20, 3:39pm
Many people work 40 hours a week and come home and care for the kids
some of us could see that nightmare in the headlights and were like "oh, no way".
In my working days I worked the 50 hour work week and never really found keeping up with chores to be a burden. I rented for much of my adult life and having house upkeep like painting and fixing things when they broke helped with more free time. I've never thought or much about class, but always lived below my means, which if a person were to categorize things would have put me in the lower middle class. Working fewer hours does have it's advantages. which is why I've followed your money or your life philosophy.
Yes, children would have changed things significantly.
I think the kids helped me to motivate myself to work harder and longer and be a whole lot more active.
I know I enjoyed my life a lot more with them than I would have working 30-40 hours a week.
In my working days I worked the 50 hour work week and never really found keeping up with chores to be a burden.
We maintain 2 small homes. The mountain cabin takes less than 30m per visit. Our primary home takes less than 2h except garden season and that is a conscious choice to grow our organic food myself! Besides, for years it has been much needed therapy after work!
The less stuff one has, the less work the home will be to maintain.
We average 3 loads laundry/week (I like fresh sheets weekly). The time per load (in front loaders) is 2h, but the work per load is 3minutes?
Most meals are 30m or less work time.
I cannot fathom not having the energy to maintain my life! Perspective is everything Mystic. You live at home. What are your daily and weekly chores expected by your parents?
If whatever your concept is of a middle class lifestyle isn’t worth working for, then don’t.
If a family is too much work, stay single.
For me, working 40-50 hours/week for forty years was well worth it for the life I had and the life I will have going forward. I don’t think more time to read Proust or contemplate my navel would have been more rewarding. But that was just for me.
iris lilies
2-7-20, 2:52pm
Bae, I often live out of the dryer. :D
i don’t understand why underwear needs to be folded. Why socks need to be put together in pairs. And to be perfectly honest, don’t understand why a lot of casual clothing must be folded.
so I don’t.
and yes I am a walking wrinkle. So what?
My DS is a lawyer and is looking for another job. He was offered a really good job, but didn't want to take it because of the commute and the hours. He has two small kids and he loves spending time with them. So he upped the counteroffer to a ridiculous figure and said, well, if they accept it, I'll take it. They accepted it but he still turned it down. Being out of the house from 6am to 9-10pm and battling NY/NJ traffic was too much.
It's interesting to see what people's breaking point is. I have to say I did pay my dues--there were many, many weeks I put in 70 hours or even more if I was traveling and you count the time away from home. I finally got to my breaking point after working for 10 years in that environment. But I was SO HAPPY for the opportunity that I lapped it up, even though I had zero personal time--I went from caring for 4 kids in the morning to work to caring for 4 kids at night. I don't regret it, frankly. I have a strong work ethic, which some might say is a character defect for a supposed simple-liver, but so be it. It's not so simple to live with fear of your utilities being turned off.
So when my son was making up his mind there was a piece of me that was thinking "Gee, suck it up until you have a down payment for a house" but it's his life and his priorities. And frankly, he just got an offer for a job with a much better work-life balance and only a 15 minute commute so he made the right decision in the long run.
iris lilies
2-7-20, 4:20pm
I remember my mother telling us kids that our father made a career choice that involved better work/life balance than $ although back in the 60’s they probably didnt have that phrase “work/life balance.” But that side of my family was pretty family oriented.
catherine, good for your son in pursuing his preferred path.
I got a government job for its work/life balance and future retirement security.
i don’t understand why underwear needs to be folded. Why socks need to be put together in pairs. And to be perfectly honest, don’t understand why a lot of casual clothing must be folded.
so I don’t.
and yes I am a walking wrinkle. So what?
The only things I pull out of the dryer are my t-shirts. They get wrinkled staying in there and that’s not good for wearing to work. I don’t pair up socks or fold undies. They just get tipped into the fabric bins I use on a shelving system in my closet. No dresser here.
I hang t-shirts up.
Teacher Terry
2-8-20, 1:04am
Underwear and socks need to be folded and matching you heathens:))
Underwear and socks need to be folded and matching you heathens:))
I am with you on this. It may take a day or two to get it done but it does get matched and folded. I like being able to reach into my sock drawer and find a pair. A friend solved his problem with pairing socks by buying a large number of exactly the same sock so they always matched; if one got a hole, it was discarded. Funny how we organize the little things in life.
iris lilies
2-8-20, 6:58am
I am with you on this. It may take a day or two to get it done but it does get matched and folded. I like being able to reach into my sock drawer and find a pair. A friend solved his problem with pairing socks by buying a large number of exactly the same sock so they always matched; if one got a hole, it was discarded. Funny how we organize the little things in life.Yes, this is what I do with socks. They’re all the same.
I am with you on this. It may take a day or two to get it done but it does get matched and folded. I like being able to reach into my sock drawer and find a pair. A friend solved his problem with pairing socks by buying a large number of exactly the same sock so they always matched; if one got a hole, it was discarded. Funny how we organize the little things in life.
I am quite disorganized and sloppy by nature, but one thing I picked up from Marie Kondo was how to fold underwear and socks, and that's the ONE thing I follow. For some reason having that small drawer under control that way makes me feel good. I actually fold my underwear and socks. It's enables me to feel like I am an organized person, even if my skills are limited to that tiny area.
Underwear and socks need to be folded and matching you heathens:))
I am most definitely with you on this one, TT!
A friend solved his problem with pairing socks by buying a large number of exactly the same sock so they always matched; if one got a hole, it was discarded. Funny how we organize the little things in life.When I was working I did the same thing. Bought only the same brand of black gold toe socks for wear on weekdays.
Underwear and socks need to be folded and matching you heathens:))
These days SO does the folding since he wants his shirts folded like in a store. Back when I was single I got around the sock matching thing by having just two kinds of socks. Black and white. I'd just grab two of the same color from the pile on a shelf in the closet.
I used to do this with socks, just buy one type, and then I'd wash them in a net bag to keep them together, but that was when I was doing laundry for five people.
Now, we just take our chances. I also like to match socks as well, although it doesn't always stay tidy.
rosarugosa
2-9-20, 11:37am
These days SO does the folding since he wants his shirts folded like in a store. Back when I was single I got around the sock matching thing by having just two kinds of socks. Black and white. I'd just grab two of the same color from the pile on a shelf in the closet.
JP1: My DH used to work at Brooks Brothers, and he folds shirts as though we are going to sell them.
Rosa, funny. DH was just in a brooks a few days ago, he had a meeting out of state and forgot his tie.
The sales people all wanted to sell suits or whatever to other people, and ignored him. DH left the tie and got one elsewhere for $30 less.
He has account and has for decades, but he wasn’t dressed up because he had a 6 hour drive to get to his meeting the next morning. They may lose a customer out of it!
rosarugosa
2-11-20, 5:24pm
NewGig: Their loss for poor customer service!
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