View Full Version : What changes do you see coming in society.....
gimmethesimplelife
4-9-20, 11:40am
Due to the coronavirus? I personally see changes coming all over the place. More screening to cross an international border. More working from home - fewer hotels and fewer airlines - fewer restaurants - more self employment due to fewer jobs - health care and education moving online and staying online - commercial real estate taking a huge hit due to less office space being needed with more and more folks working from home - what do you see coming? Rob
On my wishlist is the realization that universal healthcare is better for everyone.
I don’t think the work at home numbers will change much. I bet a whole lot of companies aren’t going to want to give up the control over employees in the office, overseeing everything they do.
Older students might be able to work more easily from home, but friends tell me their younger kids really need to be in a classroom.
I do think that there will be an even bigger expansion of people ordering stuff online. The grocery stores will have to expand pickup/delivery capacity.
I do believe that business travel will be reduced as people will get more exposure to the teleconference software and its capabilities.
I hope more people will travel in their own countries, or nearby ones they can drive/travel by train to. There’s too much galavanting about and spreading weird stuff, like this plague.
On my wishlist is the realization that universal healthcare is better for everyone.
I’m beginning to accept we’re going to have to go this direction. Problem is, I know people in both the UK and Canada, and I’m well aware of the issues with both countries. Getting a GP appt can take a long time. Appt that fits your schedule? Tough! You’ll take what we give you and if you have to miss a day’s work, too bad. Specialist appts can take months and months. You can wait years for something like knee replacement.
In Canada, the provinces run it. In the UK, it’s at the national level.
I don’t know how we could implement it without it descending into total chaos quickly.
ApatheticNoMore
4-9-20, 12:06pm
More people having a closet full of toilet paper? I don't know. Even with us working at home now the company has become more distrustful and paranoid about whether we are working or not. In truth we are working as well as we possible can considering the world is collapsing around us, it's hard to 100% tune out, a health crisis and economic crisis, but people are trying their best to push it out of their minds to get work done, without much understanding that we're all on edge emotionally. So I don't think companies actually like it. They do it because: pandemic. But I do thank every company that has done it and hasn't had to - saving lives. But when things are normal I think it's back to the office for most.
I dearly pray there is less wasteful travel, I don't have my hopes up. Citizens could choose more green living to a degree and more local living, oh how I wish, I have only so much hope they will. Much of the reduction of pollution is sheer government forcing people to work from home etc. Don't think that will last. They could however heavily encourage working through home with tax breaks for companies that do it etc. but they have never done so.
Fewer restaurants maybe. Maybe more people are cooking from home and learning to cook but then maybe not. I mean it's MUCH EASIER at this point to order take out or delivery from a restaurant than to buy food and cook it as grocery shopping has become a major ordeal and grocery delivery inadequate to the population, yes I cook because I always have, but it's a strain now. I don't think fewer jobs lead to more self employment, I suspect it leads to less in many ways, as self-employment also depends on people with disposable income generally to buy things, and if almost noone has any because we're in a depression, unless one serves some niche that still has money to spend ... Some do start businesses in some recessions, but that happened less than usual in the Great Recession of 08.
early morning
4-9-20, 12:16pm
I am afraid there will be a reduction in small, local businesses to begin with, but I hope that is a short-term thing. IMHO, there are too many big businesses already. I agree that businesses will likely reduce business travel, not only to reduce expenses, but to expand that control over employees that Tradd mentioned. I am hopeful that this will cause us to address universal health care in a sane manner, but I sure wouldn't bet on it.
I think this is going to lead to more stockpiling, which isn't necessarily bad; I've never been a fan of just-in-time inventory control. It will probably lead to MORE gun and ammo sales. Personally, I see this as bad; others will disagree. I don't think increasing gun ownership/ammo purchases as innately bad; I'm more concerned with the mindset of many - though not all- stockpilers of weapons. And I know plenty of them, so don't accuse me of some BS lefty bias. I know of which I speak here, and am carefully not tarring all gun owners/purchasers with the same brush. I'm a gun owner and have plenty of ammo. I'm just not convinced that some townie is going to come take my toilet paper and will have to be repelled with gunfire.
I agree that more people are going to be comfortable with online purchases, and with online banking, etc. I do think we're going to see that impact in the form of a slow recovery and subsequent reduction in brick and mortar shops.
Cutbacks in obligatory hugging can't be a bad thing; hand-shaking as well. Less business travel, I hope. Prudent stockpiling for emergencies is always wise. We'll probably be more mindful of the possibility of infection from now on, and take appropriate precautions.
Very little will change. It is similar to a food diet or exercise plan, man will stick with some changes for a while and then revert back to the former familiar.
We have gone thorough a number of crises over the years but the haves will continue to be in charge and the have-nots, wherever they may be, will still be trying to catch up.
I believe the chaos theory will rule and cause change at some point. The load of sand will continue to build higher and higher with little occasional grains of red until one day, there is one grain of sand or red being added that simply starts the whole pile to unravel. Then and only then will change possibly occur. Empires have gone through the chaos theory and collapsed and over centuries recovered.
I would not expect to see many big sweeping changes right away. The true changes will take a generation or two to show up. If ever.
Some low-hanging fruit will be collected now. The many businesses which quickly offered take-out/curbside service will find a sustainable level of demand for that even after people can go back into the store and shop. I think people who were pushed on-line (using a banking app or picking products via Web site for delivery) have found it wasn't as bad as they thought it would be. But the ones who found a social component to patronizing businesses or who have complicated situations to address will make bank deposits in person and pick their own 2x4s as soon as they are able. The increased surveillance people are tolerating/welcoming now (for example, maps of people movement through mobile phone usage to identify virus hotspots) will not go away and, in fact, likely will pave the way for even more. Wearing a mask when one is not feeling well may become much more common in the U.S. -- at least in urban areas. There may even be unexpected outcomes, like masks becoming the kind of fashion statement that eyeglasses have become.
Some damage will be temporary. Soon, the stock markets will be back at least to the levels they were before. For all the restaurants which are said to be unable to return, I don't see home economics classes coming back to schools or people no longer eating out because their favorite didn't come back; other places will appear. Inventory levels will increase in some places; people may salt away a package or two of toilet paper (but they won't likely stock up a freezer); depending on how many times COVID-19 catches fire again, hospitals and emergency repositories may stock more masks and ventilators. But, despite bellowing pronouncements to the contrary, some people did see a pandemic coming, and yet it was judged "not worth it" to stockpile experts and products and to make sure they worked. Expect that kind of risk vs. expense assessment to continue.
But real change, like deciding that tying medical insurance to having a job is not the most efficient, most benevolent way to provide for citizens? This pandemic may plant the seed that changes that. But 'Murrica still sees itself as an exceptional country and, therefore, is very resistant to learning much from any place else. It's hard to see the loss of a couple hundred thousand people (or fewer) changing that trajectory. More people have died in other causes and not moved the needle.
Cutbacks in obligatory hugging can't be a bad thing;
I'm as non-demonstrative as anyone can be, but I do appreciate a good hug, so I hope that's not a fallout. However, I completely understand your position.
Teacher Terry
4-9-20, 2:21pm
Interesting that people pick things like international travel and say they hope there’s less. That’s like me saying I hope people give up diving. Easy to pick things you don’t enjoy. I think restaurants will be back because many kinds of food doesn’t taste good by the time you get it home. Plus people want to be out and it’s part of the experience to be waited on.
ApatheticNoMore
4-9-20, 2:25pm
Interesting that people pick things like international travel and say they hope there’s less. That’s like me saying I hope people give up diving. Easy to pick things you don’t enjoy.
on what basis do you say that? I might very well enjoy it. The reality is it's environmentally harmful. If a luxury once tasted becomes a necessity perhaps Nancy Reagan was ultimately right in her approach ("just say no"). I hope people learn to enjoy staying home more and want a rich life lived locally, but hopefully are allowed more human interaction than now, because hey that part isn't so ideal. Unlike travel human contact is a basic need (for some more than others as some are introverts, but still).
But for any good that might come, some environmentally beneficial ideas are probably on their death beds for awhile: public transit almost certainly and possibly although less so, urban density (versus sprawl) as well . There is happy medium of medium density apartments I believe but those haven't been built since like the 60s.
Teacher Terry
4-9-20, 2:49pm
Traveling internationally is a rich, rewarding experience. Other countries, culture, food, architecture are very different than our own. Many people love to travel and that’s a major part of their retirement. I also belong to early retirement.org and many have lots of money and do a ton of traveling. I think people that say in a cavalier manner traveling isn’t important either don’t like it or can’t afford it. Many there have a lot more money than we do but I enjoy reading about their experiences and they are great for suggestions on what is worth seeing in other countries. We had a trip of a lifetime planned for a month in August. We would have been seeing 5 countries and seeing family in Poland. Of course we aren’t going now. We haven’t taken a trip in 18 months and it’s important to us.
There is happy medium of medium density apartments I believe but those haven't been built since like the 60s.
They can't be built any more. Zoning ordinances have seen to it, with the unintended (?) result that the only apartments that are financially viable are the huge complexes that dwarf anything next to them (besides another gargantuan complex). We could undo a lot of that -- if we could deal with all the pearl-clutching. But we can't.
They can't be built any more. Zoning ordinances have seen to it, with the unintended (?) result that the only apartments that are financially viable are the huge complexes that dwarf anything next to them (besides another gargantuan complex). We could undo a lot of that -- if we could deal with all the pearl-clutching. But we can't.
Maybe the coming lack of population will help.
dado potato
4-9-20, 3:36pm
More hospitals will be bankrupt... not because there is no need for hospital care, but because hospitals will be unable to recoup the costs.
One area of concern is the newly unemployed, who have not obtained health insurance. The Kaiser Family Foundation estimated that the treatment of one self-pay patient for, say, COVID-19 could amount to a hospital bill of about $240,000. Very few if any of the newly unemployed would have the means to pay.
Maybe the coming lack of population will help.
Unlikely. Too many stakeholders who won't let go. Banks financing the structure, cities dreaming of population growth, fire marshals (gotta get the biggest fire truck they've got around every side of the building), cities that require environmental studies and traffic studies, ADA compliance (try piloting a wheelchair around those 60s apartments), parking requirements (including the need to avoid surface lots), the need to subsidize market rate units with "affordable" units, ...
Not that we necessarily want to do away with any of that but all of those requirements together create an environment in which the only way to make the thing profitable is to make it huge, build it cheap, and then beg for tax policy changes. Not conducive to building on a human scale. Or for longevity.
Amazon will do better at the expense of brick and mortar stores. Amazon and the 1% will successfully deploy tax dodging strategies and the little people will pick up the tab for the stimulus plans. The unemployed will see this, say it's not fair, and do odd jobs off the books. The shadow economy will grow. And either Trump or Biden will do little to nothing to help regular people whilst protecting Wall Street and special interests, including an increasingly powerful medical industrial complex that will capitalize on fear to fend off reforms. Things will get so bad as we wallow in a depression that in 2024 an FDR type will arise to co-opt a growing socialist movement with universal health care and a few other programs already proven in other countries. The special interests will cry that the sky is falling, but in fact this will be when the clouds in the sky lift and things turn around.
ToomuchStuff
4-10-20, 12:35am
Quite a few bankruptcy filings, as well as a baby boom, and divorces going up. Already heard from law enforcement locally, the numbers of domestic violence going up from people who don't want to be around each other. (wondering about one particular case, where a couple was in the middle of separating/moving apart/starting a divorce, when the order hit)
At least locally, I think some restaurant CHAIN'S will close doors on some locations. Other locations will get busier. Some businesses may fail entirely, and end up being bought out. Others, that are doing well right now, are looking at remodeling types of stuff, that they would normally have to close for.
A spike in taxes, to pay for this, but how bad is yet to be determined. Possible inflation as things open and who knows what will be "back to normal" and what will be hard to get for at least a while.
A closure of several mom and pop garages. Essential right now, however, people are currently driving less.
Rebuilding of the medical stockpiles that were allowed to disappear as too expensive (political thing more).
Lots of lawsuits. Everything from evictions, to suing school districts that required Zoom be used during this time, where minors information gets harvested by Facebook.
Probably more Dave Ramsey listeners, LOL. Where people realize they do need an emergency fund.
In families, where multiple people work for the same business, more diversity in work.
Here's an interesting set of charts with data from which to speculate on how things will change after the virus. Despite the Trump bump (which is I suspect is only temporarily inverted these days) these charts show a more complete picture of the economic health of our country. I hope there's no paywall. It's an interesting set of data.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/10/opinion/coronavirus-us-economy-inequality.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage
I think it is way too early to say how things might be different. I highly recommend the American Experience video Influenza 1918:
https://www.pbs.org/video/american-experience-influenza-1918/
The most interesting point made there is how Americans immediately engaged in a mass forgetting/repression of the experience, it was so painful, and I think that may be the case with this pandemic as well.
happystuff
4-10-20, 9:46am
I'm taking a "wait and see" attitude. It may sound defeatist - and I certainly don't mean it that way - but I'm not sure what I can actually do except respond to whatever happens in the best way I can at the time.
sweetana3
4-10-20, 10:17am
Happystuff: A whole lot of us feel the same way. No one knows what is going to happen. I do feel that it will not be the same as pre virus someway somehow.
happystuff
4-10-20, 10:25am
I do feel that it will not be the same as pre virus someway somehow.
I agree. I think enough people will "remember" and changes will occur. I know my thought processes and actions have changed and I hope/will try my best to make some of these changes *stick*.
I was thinking how in my own mind, this experience has been like having a stroke. Trying to relearn how to do things again but realizing certain thoughts and actions no longer work the same - so you learn how to navigate however you can with a faint remembrance of how it was before - very frustrated.
I think it is way too early to say how things might be different. I highly recommend the American Experience video Influenza 1918:
https://www.pbs.org/video/american-experience-influenza-1918/
The most interesting point made there is how Americans immediately engaged in a mass forgetting/repression of the experience, it was so painful, and I think that may be the case with this pandemic as well.
Thank you for the link! AE is one of my favorite PBS series. This was an excellent episode.
I could see things getting back to some semblance of pre-CV days if someone comes up with a vaccine or maybe a cure. Otherwise the threat of a second wave or seasonal redevelopment will lurk heavily in peoples minds for many months or longer and influence crowd gathering businesses or events.
I never gave much of a thought to contagion; now I'm wearing a ninja mask and disinfecting my groceries. What a difference a couple of months make...
Not that much long term, although a few pre-existing trends may accelerate somewhat. I suspect once the threat recedes, we will return to the status quo faster than you can say “hydroxychloroquine”.
frugal-one
4-10-20, 5:55pm
Thank you for the link! AE is one of my favorite PBS series. This was an excellent episode.
Very interesting and worth watching. Think it started in Kansas. One town quarantined itself but the influenza was brought in by the mailman!
I really enjoyed that documentary. Thanks
rosarugosa
4-11-20, 6:43am
Tybee: We watched the AE show last night thanks to your link and it was so interesting! The forgetting was especially intriguing. I feel like I've heard surprisingly little about the epidemic in contrast with something like the holocaust, which is in so many books and movies.
Tybee: We watched the AE show last night thanks to your link and it was so interesting! The forgetting was especially intriguing. I feel like I've heard surprisingly little about the epidemic in contrast with something like the holocaust, which is in so many books and movies.
I know-- 600,000 Americans dead, when the entire population was much smaller. More Americans dead than all the combat casualties for that century.
I thought there was so many interesting parallels-- what struck me was the origination after the soldiers were burning all that manure, and filling the sky with a choking yellow cloud. Wuhan sounded similar, where you could not see the sun because of air pollution.
I just finished watching the AE show, and it was so interesting... so many parallels to what we're experiencing. The great-aunt I always refer to always talked about her life at the turn of the century, but interestingly, she never mentioned the flu epidemic. The tragedy in her life was the death from pneumonia of her 3 year old son in January 1920. He had been born in 1917. So those years must have been a horrible blur to her.
Thanks for the link, Tybee.
You are very welcome--I watched it years ago and recommended it highly then--it turned to be so prescient, so relevant now.
I think Ldahl is right. The changes won’t be nearly as drastic as people are envisioning or hoping for. More staying at home? After people have been cooped up in their homes for months? Less international travel? After everyone who enjoys traveling frequently had to cancel their vacation?
Teacher Terry
4-12-20, 9:53pm
I don’t see everyone rushing to be in a crowd knowing there’s a second wave coming. My DIL’s mom told her to not even think about traveling to Poland for a year. Just too risky.
I don’t see everyone rushing to be in a crowd knowing there’s a second wave coming. My DIL’s mom told her to not even think about traveling to Poland for a year. Just too risky.
Apparently you are correct.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/13/business/coronavirus-economy.html?action=click&module=Spotlight&pgtype=Homepage
A survey last week by Seton Hall University found that seven in 10 Americans would not feel comfortable attending a sporting event until a vaccine for the virus was developed. New polling by the Sports and Leisure Research Group, Engagious and ROKK Solutions finds that only about a third of Americans would take a commercial flight, see a movie in a theater or visit a theme park now if they were allowed to do so. In follow-up interviews, respondents stressed two steps that would help them feel comfortable resuming those and other economic activities: reassurances from medical professionals and the development of a vaccine.
ApatheticNoMore
4-13-20, 7:52pm
Yea what if they wanted us to die for the economy and nobody complied, or at least not anymore than they absolutely had to.
invisibleflash
4-17-20, 10:22am
On my wishlist is the realization that universal healthcare is better for everyone.
Can't do it. We are a capitalist country. That would take $$ from the rich, greedy healthcare system we got and they wont go for it.
To work we need 2 systems. A free socialized for poor and average people and our current system for the rich. But as I said, socialized takes $$ from the greedy. If China would not poison us we could hire them to do our healthcare for .10 on the dollar. Maybe Cuba or Mehico would do it?
invisibleflash
4-17-20, 10:23am
Changes?
IF the virus does not go away...
IF there is no cure / vaccine...
IF it is year round...
IF it morphs into new viruses...
Then USA is screwed as capitalist based country.
America is based on freedom, and that same freedom may end up destroying America.
Since everyone does their own thing in America, people refuse to stay in or distanced, the USA may end up as the cesspool of coronavirus that is shunned by the rest of the word that has figured out how to contain / exterminate it.
It all depends on the virus, it has the last say.
invisibleflash
4-17-20, 10:30am
Interesting that people pick things like international travel and say they hope there’s less. That’s like me saying I hope people give up diving. Easy to pick things you don’t enjoy. I think restaurants will be back because many kinds of food doesn’t taste good by the time you get it home. Plus people want to be out and it’s part of the experience to be waited on.
Everyone has their pet likes and dislikes. That is how identity politics works. I support Trump cause I want to keep my guns. If Biden was for guns and Trump was not I'd support Biden. Some people pick over queer support or abortion. It is human nature.
Even if you can't fly, and are in the USA, head down to FL to the springs and dive all you want..for a fee off course.
Greta would like to have us back in the stone age if she could...
ApatheticNoMore
4-17-20, 11:44am
If identity politics equals having issues one cares then we're at the point where we are defining politics as identity politics and the qualifier adds nothing and probably detracts something since it's just meant as a smear term. I mean really the term could only have any meaning if there was a type of politics that wasn't identity politics. But with definitions this broad forget it. Mind you the term was already deteriorating to meaninglessness as is, since every group seemed to have their own definition of it, some of the left had issue with it was they wanted to prioritize class politics, other people thought one should not run as being say the "first women president" because one should run on being the best qualified (as if we tend to vote on best qualified - boy that's hoot).
happystuff
4-17-20, 11:55am
If China would not poison us we could hire them to do our healthcare for .10 on the dollar. Maybe Cuba or Mehico would do it?
Is this a serious belief of yours? Or are you just being... don't even know what to call it!
Rob gets his healthcare from Mexico, but I live too far away.
frugal-one
4-17-20, 8:03pm
[QUOTE=invisibleflash;350107]Everyone has their pet likes and dislikes. That is how identity politics works. I support Trump cause I want to keep my guns. If Biden was for guns and Trump was not I'd support Biden. Some people pick over queer support or abortion. It is human nature.
Even if you can't fly, and are in the USA, head down to FL to the springs and dive all you want..for a fee off course.
[LEFT][COLOR=#222222][FONT=Verdana]Greta would like to have us back in the stone age if she could...
I don't understand voting for someone based on one thing. Make a checklist and who checks off the most... gets the vote. Do you really think anyone is going to take your guns away? Not.
ToomuchStuff
4-19-20, 12:43am
Do you really think anyone is going to take your guns away? Not.
You haven't been listening to them. The mechanisms are already in place, see the bump stock ban/lawsuits, and learn exactly what a bump stock is, what items can do the same thing, what former presidents agencies said when they reviewed them.
Trump used to claim to be a Democrat, until it was convenient to be a Republican. Like many politicians, I believe him to be an opportunist, who would flip to the other side if he deemed it beneficial.
In a redneck state, business as usual is expected yesterday. The Governor and State Epidemiologist are working hard to keep this at bay. Meanwhile, birthday party next door yesterday w 2 full cars of peeps showing up, lots of playing in the streets with groups far larger than those in the household......a protest at the state capital of more than 1000 people-not a mask in sight nor 6f social distancing.......
I think this virus will drag out and the idiots will pass it around freely. Then when Mom or Grandma or the immunocompromised child dies? Well, then they will be mad as hell.
I am so very tired of educating people on this virus and why what we are doing is necessary. Public Health is not a topic people want to be educated on. And data? Well data is just stupid.
Teacher Terry
4-19-20, 11:02am
H, 4 members of 11 died in one family from ignoring the guidelines.
H, 4 members of 11 died in one family from ignoring the guidelines.
Well there ya go, blowing the theories with facts. There are an additional 3 people in that family who were able to survive it! People do NOT want to understand TT. By damn though, when they or someone they know gets it, they surely will show up in the ER to expose all the staff!
Gardnr, redneck state not observing guidelines? There have been plenty reports of people in Chicago - most definitely NOT redneck - also not observing the guidelines. Gathering on street corners, front yards, etc. Parties even!
Since everyone does their own thing in America, people refuse to stay in or distanced, the USA may end up as the cesspool of coronavirus that is shunned by the rest of the word that has figured out how to contain / exterminate it.
Tracking data of movements, and the data from our public health system, seem to show most Americans are doing a reasonable job, so I'm not sure where this hand-wringing is coming from.
Tracking data of movements, and the data from our public health system, seem to show most Americans are doing a reasonable job, so I'm not sure where this hand-wringing is coming from.
One set of projections was based on 50% compliance with government mandates and it turned out to be more like 90%, which is one reason deaths are less than projected. (Another being that the more widely you test the lower the mortality rate is since you pick up asymptomatic people.) What would happen if we just told people to use common sense especially if they are high risk? For instance, if you're retired you can stay home. You don't have to go to work.
Teacher Terry
4-19-20, 1:56pm
G, and only one of the 11 was old. Carson City is our capital and seeing lots of morons with guns protesting close together. Thinning the stupid herd.
Tracking data of movements, and the data from our public health system, seem to show most Americans are doing a reasonable job, so I'm not sure where this hand-wringing is coming from.
I think it's a little early yet, but as stay-at-home orders continue, cabin fever sets in, summer comes on, and people fail to see COVID-19 nailing their local hospitals, there will be a weakening of the resolve to stay home.
Just this morning I was having a phone conversation with maybe half a dozen friends (all my age, with college degrees and families and continuing paid jobs, for what that's worth), with some talking about how they've "relaxed" social distancing and staying at home to include visiting family or going to their cabins or having the grandchildren come to their houses. Our own kids have "enlarged their quarantine circle" to a degree that greatly increases their exposure to the coronavirus. Our own purple state had a widely-televised (over-televised) protest in front of the governor's house, urging him to ignore public health recommendations and re-open the state for business.
I don't see the U.S. becoming any more of a cesspool of coronavirus than some very large and poor less-developed countries could become because they literally cannot distance or stay in. I do have sympathy for the people whose incomes and businesses have been idled by this pandemic. But pretty much all people have to do is stay in and keep distance and, increasingly, people are choosing not to. Kind of makes me wonder what happened to the America that won World War II.
ApatheticNoMore
4-19-20, 2:29pm
Lots of people at higher risk because of age, over 60 and over 70 let's say, aren't retired though. So they would have to return to the workplace too.
frugal-one
4-19-20, 4:45pm
You haven't been listening to them. The mechanisms are already in place, see the bump stock ban/lawsuits, and learn exactly what a bump stock is, what items can do the same thing, what former presidents agencies said when they reviewed them.
Trump used to claim to be a Democrat, until it was convenient to be a Republican. Like many politicians, I believe him to be an opportunist, who would flip to the other side if he deemed it beneficial.
Totally agree trump is an opportunist.
There will be changes in the short-term - money will be a factor driving more decisions and the sense of uncertainty for a while anyway.
Over the longterm, people will still be self-centred and greedy for material items as they have been for the past 60+ years since WW2. Until there is a compelling need to change, people will resort to the familiar.
Stuff will cost more and, for a time, more precautions may be taken but just like teenagers, people believe that they are immune or medicine can correct everything. Apparently, that has been 'the key factor' in rate of compliance with this lock-down, people were being told that medicine had no cure or vaccine to help. That, reportedly, scared people more than anything else.
I could see our currency being greatly devalued by other countries if we have round after round of stimulus spending funded by printing money.
I could see our currency being greatly devalued by other countries if we have round after round of stimulus spending funded by printing money.
You may well be right about the devaluing. I thought that there was some international agreement not to devalue but some countries may do it to keep their exports competitive as may any country after the first country succeeds. I know that I know very little about how this all works except that there was some serious concern about China devaluing their currency to improve exports and keep their economy active. I didn't understand how they succeeded.
I could see our currency being greatly devalued by other countries if we have round after round of stimulus spending funded by printing money.
I’m concerned about that too; although it will in part depend on how loose the other countries’ are willing to be with their own monetary policy. We may yet be the most virtuous sinner in the brothel.
I also worry about the long term impact domestically of policies that reward borrowing and consumption at the expense of saving and investment.
SteveinMN
4-20-20, 12:00pm
I also worry about the long term impact domestically of policies that reward borrowing and consumption at the expense of saving and investment.
I'm guessing that concern dates back maybe 40 years?
I thought this article gave a thought-provoking overview of how we got here and why we need a reset...or else:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/06/underlying-conditions/610261/
SteveinMN
4-20-20, 12:25pm
I thought this article gave a thought-provoking overview
Indeed. It's unfortunate many who need to read it will not get past the headline. But it is valuable reading for anyone who says they love the USA.
Teacher Terry
4-20-20, 12:42pm
Great article PT.
I thought this article gave a thought-provoking overview of how we got here and why we need a reset...or else:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/06/underlying-conditions/610261/
I've been saying this for some time. This isn't the country I thought I lived in--"With liberty and justice for all."
I thought this article gave a thought-provoking overview of how we got here and why we need a reset...or else:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/06/underlying-conditions/610261/
I was struck by the conflicting message in the first part of the article, the overall message was that our government and president were neither forceful nor quick enough to control the populace, but then asked if we were still capable of self government. I think one of those things is not like the other, but it was pretty critical of both of its targets and that's probably all that matters.
I'm guessing that concern dates back maybe 40 years?
Absolutely. But it does not follow from that that two parties doing a stupid thing makes doing a stupid thing any less stupid.
I was struck by the conflicting message, the overall message was that our government and president were neither forceful nor quick enough to control the populace, but then asked if we were still capable of self government.
That is the problem I am having lately, reconciling the idea that we are a nation of liberty and justice for all, but then seeing everyone jump to condemn those who are protesting their loss of liberty.
I am not suggesting anyone NOT observe lockdown, before everyone jumps on me.
I'm just saying that my ancestors that fought the Revolution were not known for doing what they were told, when they were told, by a faraway government.
My governor has told me I can't buy paint anymore, or garden supplies--but in the same store yesterday, my husband could buy saw blades and cheetos.
It is all a bit odd.
Absolutely. But it does not follow from that that two parties doing a stupid thing makes doing a stupid thing any less stupid.
Agree 100%. This country has long penalized small savers. Those policies have existed for a long time under both parties. And our economy is very heavily based on consumer buying and quarterly results. We're starting to see the outcome of decades of those policies.
happystuff
4-20-20, 8:43pm
That is the problem I am having lately, reconciling the idea that we are a nation of liberty and justice for all, but then seeing everyone jump to condemn those who are protesting their loss of liberty.
I am not suggesting anyone NOT observe lockdown, before everyone jumps on me.
I'm just saying that my ancestors that fought the Revolution were not known for doing what they were told, when they were told, by a faraway government.
My governor has told me I can't buy paint anymore, or garden supplies--but in the same store yesterday, my husband could buy saw blades and cheetos.
It is all a bit odd.
Let people have their liberty and justice for all. Go ahead and protest if you think you are losing your freedoms. But DON'T endanger anyone else while you do that! Where is the caring and compassion for others? Yes, put your oxygen mask on before you turn to help the child/other person - but when your mask IS on, ACTUALLY turn and help others!
I agree -it is all a bit odd... it is all very odd.... and very, very sad.
ToomuchStuff
4-21-20, 1:16am
Let people have their liberty and justice for all. Go ahead and protest if you think you are losing your freedoms. But DON'T endanger anyone else while you do that! Where is the caring and compassion for others? Yes, put your oxygen mask on before you turn to help the child/other person - but when your mask IS on, ACTUALLY turn and help others!
I agree -it is all a bit odd... it is all very odd.... and very, very sad.
The whole point of freedom's, is when you think something is most wrong. (example Free speech/neo nazi's, or KKK)
I have been happy to see push back for churches being shut down (really, if they die, they are just heading to church for that anyway), second amendment cases, a first amendment case (doctors told a kid she probably had it, but was past that kits test phase), etc. etc.
My view is the government should make suggestions, not take god given rights per the bill of rights.
ApatheticNoMore
4-21-20, 1:31am
Yea if your freedom doesn't end at your right to kill me and my loved one's (of covid), I don't know.
I want these decisions to be made on the best available evidence and expertise not some protestors who most certainly are not (and incidentally don't represent most people either).
I agree -it is all a bit odd... it is all very odd.... and very, very sad.
yea it is really. Better than I put it. It's tragic, but I'm so quick to rage against the dying of the light.
(and honestly people who think they need paint that badly, that they need paint right now, or it's some kind of catastrophe, never even mind that this stuff is available elsewhere anyway, the most important thing is the FREEDOM TO BUY PAINT in a pandemic. Just unreal. Never mind the revolutionary war, this can't be the country that fought two world wars with all the rationing involved there can it?).
I give up. I tried to express my thoughts about what was going on in my state, and why some people might protest.
I am not protesting. I am not leaving my house except to do the same things everyone else on here is leaving their house to do.
I think it's fascinating that you can't express an opinion here that is different than what others think without being accused of endangering others.
We obviously have different takes on what freedom of expression and freedom of speech look like, and why one might try to protect those freedoms.
Tybee, this has been interesting to read so don't despair as the discussion has been informative aiding in understanding the differences.
Maybe it is my background, my life philosophy or whatever, my thoughts and actions are governed by the belief of the priority of the common good being first. Individualism takes second place every time.
Short story - when in my late teens, I stayed at a YWCA for about a year . A small group of young women approached me and advised that I should avoid one individual on my floor as she was not desirable as a friend. I would be included in their group if I complied. I calmly declined stating that I didn't know the individual in question and didn't let others make my decisions. The group was very angry and targeted me for a month or so. I expected that to happen but still felt a little uncomfortable for a few days reviewing my decision. I realized that the common good of respect for all was more important to me than partisanship for acceptance in a group. Interestingly, that group dissolved once the leader's authority was challenged by more of her group members. That experience has governed my life.
happystuff
4-21-20, 9:02am
I give up. I tried to express my thoughts about what was going on in my state, and why some people might protest.
I am not protesting. I am not leaving my house except to do the same things everyone else on here is leaving their house to do.
I think it's fascinating that you can't express an opinion here that is different than what others think without being accused of endangering others.
We obviously have different takes on what freedom of expression and freedom of speech look like, and why one might try to protect those freedoms.
Yes, you can express an opinion here that is different than others and you have done that. And others have responded in kind - expressing their own opinions.
As I stated above, I have no issues with people protesting and trying to protect their freedoms - as long as they remember OTHER people have those same freedoms. Let the protesters protest all they want, but NOT at the endangerment of others. They have the freedom to endanger themselves, but I have the same rights and freedoms NOT to be endangered by them.
Sorry if I'm not expressing this well. This is NOT an "either/or" issue. If it were easy to figure out, there would be no conversations about it.
gimmethesimplelife
4-21-20, 10:48am
I worry, very much so, as more people are dying than would have to if Americans thought less of individual liberty and more about the collective good of society. To me it's as if Covid-19 is exposing and making brutally clear the vulnerabilities and risks inherent on the American Way. Though to be fair here - Covid-19 is also exposing much less than flattering hard truths regarding the Chinese way, too. And also the Mexican way. Rob
ApatheticNoMore
4-21-20, 11:24am
I don't think Tybee is personally endangering anyone. I'm just saying if these movements of a fringe minority combined with a lot of other forces at play, lead to acting based on expediency rather than caution in managing an epidemic what I see as the stakes. Of course there are also the smaller stakes that the protestors end up getting and spreading covid from the protest, more so if they don't distance etc. etc., which even itself in the right circumstances could lead to a lot of cases (but less if quarantine is in place otherwise!!!).
A note on protests: if a protest is actually a challenge to the status quo it isn't so free from interference anyway. Now not all protests that pose no challenge to the status quo are malevolent, not at all, I view this one as such for sure, but some are perfectly benign and righteous, but if they were any real challenge they would meet a lot more resistance from the powers that be. If this manages too, it will mostly be because these people are going around spreading an epidemic! >8)
I live with not being able to touch or visit with my parents who are on lockdown in an assisted living. I live with knowing they could die alone at any minute.
I have not seen or touched my grandchildren in months.
I do not speak to anyone, visit anyone, break lockdown in any way except that the same way those of you here have been doing--going to the grocery, buying cough syrup, driving three times through a driveup window.
Yesterday my neighbor moved away to Florida. He got out of his truck to say goodbye. I could not hug him or get closer than 6 feet to him.
I'm aghast that people have concluded I am endangering anyone. But that's what people seem to have concluded here.
Sorry if I'm not expressing this well. This is NOT an "either/or" issue. If it were easy to figure out, there would be no conversations about it.
I thinks thatÂ’s very true. It highlights a tension that has existed as long as the Republic. We want government to protect us against economic, defense and public health risks and threats, but we donÂ’t want to submit to government control.
At the extremes of the spectrum, you see some pretty extreme statements. There are people who feel they have an absolute right to freedom of movement regardless of the costs. There are people who think isolation is an absolute duty regardless of the costs.
There are those who think a day at the beach is more important than the risks that imposes on society at large. There are those seem to look forward to dancing on the graves of the first group.
The best solution probably lies somewhere in between. Safety is important. So is a functioning economy. The various risks involved need to be balanced.
happystuff
4-21-20, 11:59am
I live with not being able to touch or visit with my parents who are on lockdown in an assisted living. I live with knowing they could die alone at any minute.
I have not seen or touched my grandchildren in months.
I do not speak to anyone, visit anyone, break lockdown in any way except that the same way those of you here have been doing--going to the grocery, buying cough syrup, driving three times through a driveup window.
Yesterday my neighbor moved away to Florida. He got out of his truck to say goodbye. I could not hug him or get closer than 6 feet to him.
I'm aghast that people have concluded I am endangering anyone. But that's what people seem to have concluded here.
Tybee, I'm so sorry that you are feeling targeted and that your situation is as you described. Any of my opinions directed towards "protesters" have definitely not been personally directed at you! I'm sorry if you felt they were.
I can relate to the isolation and loneliness; the not being able to touch or hug those we know, those we love. These are very hard times and finding something... anything... to take comfort in seems very difficult. I hope you are able to find something that will help to alleviate your situation. Hugs.
Thanks, happystuff, that is kind of you.
Teacher Terry
4-21-20, 12:25pm
Tybee, I read all the posts and it didn’t appear that anyone thinks you are endangering anyone. People do have a right to protest. We have had 3 in Carson City which is our capital. People are close together and have huge guns. I think those people are idiots. I am surprised that they haven’t accidentally shot themselves or others. They don’t need their guns to protest. If one person in that crowd has it they will spread it. If they were 6 feet away without guns I would feel differently. I feel for everyone that may never see their families again. People are dying alone in hospitals and mom’s giving birth alone. I just saw a picture of a 5 year old that died from it. Some states have limited what you can buy because they don’t want people shopping as a way to get out. Our state hasn’t done this. I have a good friend that is acting like this. She is 74, has a ton of serious health issues and goes to stores daily to get out. It doesn’t matter what her kids or friends say. I have given up.
I wouldn't care if they were just putting their own lives at risk, of course. The fewer ignoramuses about, the better, I'm inclined to think. But they don't live in a vacuum, and they're bound to infect others, as Fox and Internet trolls have infected their thought processes. I have no idea what their guns have to do with public health and reasonable pandemic guidelines; I doubt they do, either. It's just an opportunity to open-carry and wave their silly Confederate flags. I forget which astroturf organization is behind all this, but they've had their time in the spotlight.
Note: I have no problem with protests per se; it's the flagrant flouting of common-sense health precautions that I find appalling. If they stayed in their cars, stood with their signs in front of their houses, called or wrote their representatives, hired a sky-writer, penned letters to the editor, commented on social media, or otherwise expressed themselves without endangering the rest of us, I'd likely disagree, but would have no issue with them.
I'm just saying if these movements of a fringe minority
Roughly a third of the country thinks the economy is not being opened up quickly enough. It's not a fringe minority.
One writer has referred to the two extremes as rat fink America and you’re not the boss of me America.
Interesting article on how hotels may have to adapt for the age of pandemics:
"We removed minibars, excess hangers, excess linens," Tauscher said. "We took extra pillows out, so there are four per room, instead of six."
(https://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/so-long-minibar-how-coronavirus-changing-your-hotel-stay-n1180226)
Quigley also oversaw the complex system by which guest rooms are cleaned. [...] "Currently, there is no in-room housekeeping per se during a guest's stay," Quigley said. (https://www.nbcnews.com/business/consumer/so-long-minibar-how-coronavirus-changing-your-hotel-stay-n1180226)
I wonder if this will accelerate the population shift to the sunbelt. If you were going to open a restaurant and could go anywhere would you pick Florida or New York? San Francisco or Atlanta? Seattle or Myrtle Beach? Boston or Nashville?
Simplemind
4-22-20, 7:04pm
There was a poll the other day on Nextdoor about restaurants and what they would need to do to get customers to come back. Although there were a few diehards that would go back in a hot minute no matter what, it was pretty telling about how the majority felt. Nada, nope, not gonna do it.
Most didn't believe in smaller and fewer tables. People wanted to see employees cleaning as well as wearing masks and gloves. Disposable menus or menus under glass or available on your phone. Condiments in packets on demand. Many said they "might" feel comfortable with takeout but didn't see themselves in a restaurant for a very long time.
We already went out very little during cold and flu season. I don't see myself going out for a very long time. I miss the gym like crazy but I don't see going back there for a very long time either.
I worry when they push opening up that it won't bite back with not enough people showing up to keep them afloat.
gimmethesimplelife
4-23-20, 11:52am
I am very much of the opinion I will be needing to find something else to do for work. Time will tell but SO and I are thinking of the grocery biz - but how long will that exist given the explosion of online ordering? Rob
I think it will be five years before we see how this all plays out. History will not be kind to Trump.
gimmethesimplelife
4-23-20, 12:00pm
I think it will be five years before we see how this all plays out. History will not be kind to Trump.I agree on both counts. With any luck perhaps the GOP will be weak and inconsequential for some time going forward. Rob
SteveinMN
4-23-20, 12:28pm
the grocery biz - but how long will that exist given the explosion of online ordering? Rob
Someone still has to pick the chicken wings and apples out of cases for delivery. Or is that not the aspect of the work that is most appealing?
I am very much of the opinion I will be needing to find something else to do for work. Time will tell but SO and I are thinking of the grocery biz - but how long will that exist given the explosion of online ordering? Rob
I think the jobs will be there, even with a different delivery system. My granddad had a wholesale grocery business, and the Depression left him with only one grocery store. He couldn't pay the mortgage and he went to the bank and offered them the keys. They said, why would we take the keys? The people buying at your store have no money. Who would feed them? You're keeping the whole town alive.
He made it through and died early, of heart disease, in the 50's.
ToomuchStuff
4-24-20, 1:25am
A couple weeks before this hit, one major grocery store, just shutdown its delivery warehouse and fired something like a couple hundred workers.
We are wondering if the beancounter who said to do it, still has his job.
A couple weeks before this hit, one major grocery store, just shutdown its delivery warehouse and fired something like a couple hundred workers.
We are wondering if the beancounter who said to do it, still has his job.
Probably does. Regional chain Hy-Vee here has been closing fulfillment facilities because their inventory doesn't mirror what's in the stores, so customers used to what was in the stores ordered on-line and found they could get only "Hy-Vee Lite". Just balance the inventory among the stores (probably more localized to customer preferences, anyway) and ... problem solved. Until a raging virus comes around. The move was made for a good reason. It was just a bad time to make that move.
One thing that I will confess to continue doing longterm is washing my hands longer and oftener than before.
Read this article in the NY Times today about how life may be different as we get back to "normal". One of the interesting things the author points out is that as we have to bounce between "open" and "closed" it's possible that people will get more in the habit of not making long term plans as much, but instead taking advantage of "now" when things are open.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/21/world/americas/coronavirus-social-impact.html?utm_source=pocket-newtab
A somewhat numerical take on the future of tech work (https://medium.com/p/de30ce4a9190/responses/show) at large companies with headquarters and a comment on that column I found ominous:
A report from a small business client of mine.
“It hit us hard. We had to lay off 60% of our workers. [...]
“You know what? A lot of those people we laid off are never being offered their jobs back. The complainers. The ones who kept taking sick days. The ones that never mastered their jobs right.
“We’re going to be okay.”
Read this article in the NY Times today about how life may be different as we get back to "normal". One of the interesting things the author points out is that as we have to bounce between "open" and "closed" it's possible that people will get more in the habit of not making long term plans as much, but instead taking advantage of "now" when things are open.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/21/world/americas/coronavirus-social-impact.html?utm_source=pocket-newtab
That used to be common in the old Soviet Union. People used to always carry a string bag on the off chance they came upon a store that had goods available. Then they would pounce. You heard stories of people getting into lines before knowing what was being sold at the other end.
A somewhat numerical take on the future of tech work (https://medium.com/p/de30ce4a9190/responses/show) at large companies with headquarters and a comment on that column I found ominous:
It's not just small companies that are thinking that way. SO, who does senior level HR for a very large corporation, and who expects it will be years before his industry fully rebounds, made a similar comment the other day.
ApatheticNoMore
5-4-20, 12:59pm
Ever thought that those who take lots of sick days, well some might just be using the time off allowed to them and see it as a job benefit that is given them, but some might be people with underlying medical conditions (not even mental health but actual physical conditions) who have to take them to get through?
Their asthma or whatever condition they have might be out of control that day or whatever. So should they all be on disability instead? Never mind do you REALLY want people coming in sick in a pandemic? (in this one asymptomatic transmission exists but so does symptomatic) What about the next pandemic?
I sometimes fantasize that is time for the little people to rise up against the politicians, billionaires and corporations who have structured our society almost fully to their own advantage. Pitchforks and torches, anyone?
I sometimes fantasize that is time for the little people to rise up against the politicians, billionaires and corporations who have structured our society almost fully to their own advantage. Pitchforks and torches, anyone?
Beyond time.
Well, if history has anything to say about it, I'm doubtful that anything will change. Did society change after the 1918 pandemic? No... business as usual, ramping up industry and consumerism until it came crashing down 10 years later. After all the trauma and sacrifice of WWII, what happened? Suburban sprawl, parking lots and plastics and the Persuaders of marketing luring us all to the grandeur of the material world.
I wish I could believe that a few months of enforced isolation, and home-schooling, and checking up on neighbors was going to portent a return to simple values, but I don't think so.
ApatheticNoMore
5-4-20, 2:10pm
And how much would such values matter if it did when our government is determined to bail out the most destructive industries out there. See we'd need good people running things for things to change for the better, and we don't have that.
Now it is true if absolutely noone took flights. super unlikely as that is, maybe airlines would not come back, but a lot of destructive things are just going to be saved by the government quite regardless of all else including whether they are even profitable, and quite regardless of what we do maybe. Maybe shale oil won't, fracking might.
Well, if history has anything to say about it, I'm doubtful that anything will change. Did society change after the 1918 pandemic? No... business as usual, ramping up industry and consumerism until it came crashing down 10 years later. After all the trauma and sacrifice of WWII, what happened? Suburban sprawl, parking lots and plastics and the Persuaders of marketing luring us all to the grandeur of the material world.
I wish I could believe that a few months of enforced isolation, and home-schooling, and checking up on neighbors was going to portent a return to simple values, but I don't think so.
I think you’re right. In 1968 I was ten years old. The Hong Kong Flu killed 100,000 Americans. I can’t say it left much of an impression. When people recollect that time, you’ll hear stories (many fake) about Woodstock, Vietnam, riots or football games, but nothing about that.
iris lilies
5-4-20, 4:06pm
I think you’re right. In 1968 I was ten years old. The Hong Kong Flu killed 100,000 Americans. I can’t say it left much of an impression. When people recollect that time, you’ll hear stories (many fake) about Woodstock, Vietnam, riots or football games, but nothing about that.
Some things that were different:
No 24/7 yakking media to breathlessly remind us of the big evil Virus and the havoc it wreaks
Far less blind assumption that Nanny gubmnt will always protect us from all things at all times, in fact, quite a distrust of gubmnt in the whole (Vietnam draft and etc.)
more acceptance that people get sick, they die. Shit happens.
flowerseverywhere
5-4-20, 5:51pm
Some things that were different:
No 24/7 yakking media to breathlessly remind us of the big evil Virus and the havoc it wreaks
Far less blind assumption that Nanny gubmnt will always protect us from all things at all times, in fact, quite a distrust of gubmnt in the whole (Vietnam draft and etc.)
more acceptance that people get sick, they die. Shit happens.
i gotta say, I so agree about the media. I live in Fl with retirement communities all around.
All the big news outlets were here as this virus started to explode. USA Today, CNN, Fox, all interviewing people. Of course they found some crackpots. My family, all further north were calling they heard we were going to be ground zero. So when your average age is 66.8 an awful lot of people are home and not working. And it was like a ghost town here for the last six weeks. Some news stories say DeSantis is suppressing the numbers, but I kinda think if we were like NYC it would leak out.
so we are starting to open here. Some stores, some beaches, some activities, restaurants outside spaced dining and some inside dining. In a few weeks it will be abundantly clear if this was a disasterous mistake. I know some people who wear hazmat type covering to put the garbage out. Most of us around me are slowly venturing out, with masks and social distancing.
The food shortage reporting is making me crazy me crazy so I have to turn the news off. If you have any food or anxiety issues, it really makes them worse. My husband was laughing when he opened the freezer today, it is packed like a puzzle. Pulling one thing out could topple the tower.
Ever thought that those who take lots of sick days, well some might just be using the time off allowed to them and see it as a job benefit that is given them, but some might be people with underlying medical conditions (not even mental health but actual physical conditions) who have to take them to get through?
I don't think anyone here disagrees with your point. I found the article comment interesting, though, because the attitude it represents is not uncommon.
Most of us here have been in the workforce for a couple of decades (or longer) and/or have additional experience with the world of work through spouses, children, etc. Some (many? all?) of us have been on both the supervisory and the supervised side.
I would bet that every one of us has worked in or knows of at least one work setting in which there was one coworker who complained about everything, or insisted (grumbling all the way) that they couldn't change the way they worked (as all their colleagues had); or whose out-of-the-office record had a strange and unfortunate coincidence with Mondays and Fridays (particularly nice ones).
Similarly, we've worked with people who were, say, single parents who may have had to leave early routinely to pick up their kids -- but who skipped lunch or checked their voicemail or email that evening to compensate for the time missed, or people who had very tenuous childcare (or parent care!) arrangements which, sometimes, required them to take PTO with no advance warning, or people on FMLA who sometimes had to take a few days off at a time because of a flareup in their health or the health of someone they took care of (which is why they were on FMLA).
To put it bluntly, I think most people in a workgroup know who is working to the best of their ability and who is not. The ones who are not are the ones who likely will not be returning if there's a business-related restriction on how many people can be hired back. Perception is a very strong thing. Some folks may find the perception others have of them at work could lead to some missed opportunities.
Some things that were different:
more acceptance that people get sick, they die. Shit happens.
I agree. More non-elderly people die from the flu per year than have died of covid. A lot of the reaction today seems to be a refusal to accept that elderly people with underlying conditions should have to die of anything.
I agree. More non-elderly people die from the flu per year than have died of covid. A lot of the reaction today seems to be a refusal to accept that elderly people with underlying conditions should have to die of anything.
BS. 34,000 people total died of the flu last year in the US. Twice that many have died in two months from covid and the numbers keep going up.
A lot of the reaction today seems to be a refusal to accept that elderly people with underlying conditions should have to die of anything.
I can get the impression that the lives and health needs of the elderly and those with underlying conditions are being devalued by some of the young and healthy.
I can get the impression that the lives and health needs of the elderly and those with underlying conditions are being devalued by some of the young and healthy.
You said it. Just move along; don't forget the inheritance.
I see that the Biden campaign has signed on Ezekiel Emanuel as a health advisor. Dr. Emanuel has written that he doesn’t see much point in staying alive past age 75. Perhaps he doesn’t see accelerating boomer removal as all that tragic.
I see that the Biden campaign has signed on Ezekiel Emanuel as a health advisor. Dr. Emanuel has written that he doesn’t see much point in staying alive past age 75. Perhaps he doesn’t see accelerating boomer removal as all that tragic.
I wonder how he feels about people born with serious birth defects or brain damage. I think Biden might fall into his useless age category, so it's a little ironic.
Well...boomer removal frees up some social security funds:) Aging is such an individual thing. There are people who act and feel old at 55 and there are 85 year olds who are still enjoying life despite their aches and pains. I think if this virus were affecting more young people, the cavalier response of some might be different.
Teacher Terry
5-5-20, 1:06pm
I am sick of the cavalier attitude of some younger people. I conclude that they don’t love their parents or grandparents. My kids range in ages from 40-47 and are worried about getting it and worried about us. They are suffering financially and are out of work. Once they go back their hours and tips will be much less so are downsizing to a small one bedroom apartment. Not fun at all. Yet they would rather live and are concerned with opening up too soon.
ToomuchStuff
5-5-20, 1:23pm
BS. 34,000 people total died of the flu last year in the US. Twice that many have died in two months from covid and the numbers keep going up.
Where did you see that, as I am only finding preliminary stats via the CDC, and it goes as low as 24K to as high as 68K. They vary with number that have reported or been reported as having it, verses actually having it.
Until this thing is in hindsight, I am not sure which we can say is worse when it comes to death rate.
BS. 34,000 people total died of the flu last year in the US. Twice that many have died in two months from covid and the numbers keep going up.
Your figures are all deaths. I wrote about deaths among the non-elderly. Check your facts.
I am sick of the cavalier attitude of some younger people. I conclude that they don’t love their parents or grandparents.
I guess no one in Sweden loves their family members, because there at risk demographic groups are advised to isolate and others are free to move about the country. The harsh winter climate has really made those Scandinavians cold blooded!
I agree. More non-elderly people die from the flu per year than have died of covid. A lot of the reaction today seems to be a refusal to accept that elderly people with underlying conditions should have to die of anything.
How old are you? All you have been doing is bitching about how old people should stay home (forever, if necessary) and it is not big deal if they die. Getting really old to hear.
ETA...Guess I should answer in a more politically correct way... such as Rogar BUT your constant negligent remarks are tiresome.
How old are you? All you have been doing is bitching about how old people should stay home (forever, if necessary) and it is not big deal if they die. Getting really old to hear.
Old people will not stay home forever. Either herd immunity will occur or a vaccine will be developed.
Old people will not stay home forever. Either herd immunity will occur or a vaccine will be developed.
Or better treatments will be developed, or the virus will mutate, or ...
Old people will not stay home forever. Either herd immunity will occur or a vaccine will be developed.
How many years? We don't know. I guess herd immunity will follow all those working folks also who are in essential positions too???
How many years? We don't know. I guess herd immunity will follow all those working folks also who are in essential positions too???
Yes, herd immunity would protect everyone once the virus has run its course. I am one of the nonglamorous essential workers - no private movie screenings, honking horns, or hazard pay - and I am putting my health at risk going to work. I'm happy to take the risk. It shouldn't be elderly doing that. Just like I try to get my mom to let me do her shopping for her, only she refuses.
It is up to the healthy just as with immunizations. Some people cannot get them due to autoimmune disorders. The rest of need to get vaccinated to create herd immunity and protect them.
So I am willing to risk getting the virus and being sick (if I haven't already had it) for the greater good. The easy way out for me would be to sit at home making more in unemployment than I do working.
So I am willing to risk getting the virus and being sick (if I haven't already had it) for the greater good. The easy way out for me would be to sit at home making more in unemployment than I do working.
I've seen patients who didn't have a good time being sick with this, even fairly young healthy folks.
I'd avoid getting it for now...
I am not trying to get infected. But I have no desire to live under a rock either.
ApatheticNoMore
5-5-20, 5:56pm
If the shopping for my mom thing worked better I'd do it (she never wants me to). I'd risk it to protect my mom. For the economic system though, dying for what again? Oh right The Dow.
I am not trying to get infected. But I have no desire to live under a rock either.
False dichotomy
If the shopping for my mom thing worked better I'd do it (she never wants me to). I'd risk it to protect my mom. For the economic system though, dying for what again? Oh right The Dow.
I am not worried about the Dow, but about small businesses and individuals. Already some businesses are closing permanently, and consolidations are expected in the wake of the pandemic. As to individuals, I know you personally know the impact of unemployment once the Federal $600 subsidy expires.
ApatheticNoMore
5-5-20, 6:13pm
Many of those businesses will go under regardless, even if you open up restaurants, you can't force people to go to them, and if you open them up with half as many tables for distancing they might not be viable anyway. And if you open them up and have a major wave of infections then how well will they do after that, if people weren't afraid of them before well THEN they will be. Or do we now have a duty to go to restaurants or something whether or not it is safe? Benefits to the unemployed should be extended until this thing is more under control, that may not happen, but it's what should happen. Forcing people to work in dangerous conditions is not freedom it's much closer to slavery.
I am not worried about the Dow, but about small businesses and individuals.
Most of the small businesses in my county will now perish by the end of the year, whether we "re-open" or not.
What will become of these people whose businesses perish? Will they be able to remain in your community?
flowerseverywhere
5-5-20, 6:32pm
Restaurants opened here along with stores, all at partial capacity. All my friends and neighbors have no intention of going. Hair, nails and gyms are not open yet, but most I’ve spoken to also will avoid these as long as possible. I’m personally not going to die of stupidity.
The greatest country should be able to convert these lost jobs to manufacturing medications, PPE etc. instead of cheap imported goods. That is what the defense production act was created for in WW2.
https://www.defense.gov/Explore/Features/story/Article/2128446/during-wwii-industries-transitioned-from-peacetime-to-wartime-production/
people want productive work, not bailouts where the wealthiest take the spoils.
Teacher Terry
5-5-20, 6:38pm
People in Sweden are paying the price heavily compared to their neighbors such as Norway.
What will become of these people whose businesses perish? Will they be able to remain in your community?
That depends I suspect on their housing situation and other income generating opportunities. In general I fear there will be a bit of an exodus as people get wiped out..
Many of those businesses will go under regardless, even if you open up restaurants, you can't force people to go to them, and if you open them up with half as many tables for distancing they might not be viable anyway. And if you open them up and have a major wave of infections then how well will they do after that, if people weren't afraid of them before well THEN they will be.
I've seen too many articles and reports by chefs -- some of whom are by no means running shoestring operations (well, as the restaurant business goes) -- and they all say pretty much the same thing: a room that is no more than one-quarter or -half full will not let them meet their expenses. They're paying the same rent regardless of how full the room is (unless they can renegotiate the rent; doable with some landlords but not others) and the cost of labor will not change that much. Maybe you won't need as many waiters or buspeople but the back of house staff was already what was needed to make the food the restaurant was known for making. Then there will be the extra expenses of reopening, like redoing menus (disposable or disinfectable), restocking coolers, marking floors and waiting areas, signage, etc. The lower amount of ingredients consumed is a small portion of costs after rent and labor.
I expect there will be a lot of "you go first" in reopening restaurants and bars (maybe they could sell tickets to watch how social distancing is managed among bar patrons, particularly toward the end of the night). And no restaurateur wants to be the owner of the place where a worker with coronavirus (inadvertantly) passes it to other staff or diners (a diner could do that to staff, too). I don't know as flinging open the doors is the answer most people are looking for. Even in Iowa, it won't be a matter of "if you build it, they will come".
I am not worried about the Dow, but about small businesses and individuals.
I feel SO bad for all small business owners. This does feel like falling off a cliff because the whole shutting things down started out in March as just a couple of weeks, then it was a couple of more weeks, and then a month and now, who knows what will happen. My son works for two couples who just bought the restaurant he works for in mid-February. How are they going to survive? How are any of them going to survive?
Teacher Terry
5-5-20, 8:29pm
Even if we hadn’t shutdown people would have stopped going. Some casinos voluntarily closed because of lack of business. The week before it happened outback barely had customers. I really feel sorry for the small businesses also. We have a ton because of the tourists and no doubt will have less.
Your figures are all deaths. I wrote about deaths among the non-elderly. Check your facts.
I get it. You don’t give a crap about old people dying. I think that is supremely heartless. Cut bait while you’re behind.
I get it. You don’t give a crap about old people dying. I think that is supremely heartless. Cut bait while you’re behind.
I am avoiding old people so they don't catch anything from me. I am not visiting anyone in a nursing home and I do not work in a nursing home. So nice try blaming me but it's not my fault.
I do see older people at work but not by choice. One guy came up to my window yesterday not wearing a mask although he is supposed to in the building breathing on me, talking to me, and handing me cash. But the customer is always right.
My point has consistently been that older people of retirement age can stay home and should to protect themselves rather than locking down the whole country. If I could retire and stay home I would. If I were elderly and had a child volunteering to bring me my groceries I would accept. If I ran a nursing home I would mandate sanitary protocols and not cover up deaths. Going around in a state of anguish because people I don't even know died accomplishes nothing. If I died I wouldn't want everyone depressed.
Does anyone think that because some people have a peanut allergy that can be so serious they die from it we should ban peanuts and eradicate the plant from the planet since we do not have a vaccine or cure for peanut allergy? Should we find and destroy all peanuts, peanut butter, peanut brittle, and Reese's peanut butter cups lest anyone susceptible to them come into contact with them? Should all peanut farmers be thrown out of work? If we don't take these steps are we heartless? Or should we find a way to coexist with the peanut? Should people with peanut allergies take steps to minimize their exposure instead?
I am avoiding old people so they don't catch anything from me. I am not visiting anyone in a nursing home and I do not work in a nursing home. So nice try blaming me but it's not my fault.
I do see older people at work but not by choice. One guy came up to my window yesterday not wearing a mask although he is supposed to in the building breathing on me, talking to me, and handing me cash. But the customer is always right.
My point has consistently been that older people of retirement age can stay home and should to protect themselves rather than locking down the whole country. If I could retire and stay home I would. If I were elderly and had a child volunteering to bring me my groceries I would accept. If I ran a nursing home I would mandate sanitary protocols and not cover up deaths. Going around in a state of anguish because people I don't even know died accomplishes nothing. If I died I wouldn't want everyone depressed.
And my point has consistently been that if we take the herd immunity approach 50%+ people in nursing homes/assisted living WILL die. Because people are highly contagious before having symptoms it’s inevitable that an employee will bring it in and start the death spiral. For me that is simply an unacceptable consequence.
Employees at nursing homes can take precautions. A coworker of mine lost his mother to covid this week. He and other family members were allowed into the ICU to say their goodbyes wearing hazmat suits. Ebola was contained in this country in a similar manner.
I am glad they let them go into the hospital to say goodbye. This is something we were discussing in my family, if we would be allowed to see them and hold their hand. Where they are, in Maine, you have to self quarantine for 14 days and I don't think they would let us into the hospital because we are from out of state.
If my dad were to pass, and it was just my mom, she has dementia and sometimes does not recognize my brothers.
And my point has consistently been that if we take the herd immunity approach 50%+ people in nursing homes/assisted living WILL die. Because people are highly contagious before having symptoms it’s inevitable that an employee will bring it in and start the death spiral. For me that is simply an unacceptable consequence.
But people already are coming in, the carers are coming in, and they are living at home and could be asymptomatic, as you say. So you are already in a situation were the people are locked down, unable to interact with each other (lockdown in rooms, no dining hall, etc.,) unable to have family visit, and they are already having people coming in to care for them and work on the facility. So it's not like everyone is locked down in there with them. So I do not understand this:
". Because people are highly contagious before having symptoms it’s inevitable that an employee will bring it in and start the death spiral. For me that is simply an unacceptable consequence."
You already have employees coming and going; it is not a closed system like the space station or something.
iris lilies
5-6-20, 10:18am
I am glad they let them go into the hospital to say goodbye. This is something we were discussing in my family, if we would be allowed to see them and hold their hand. Where they are, in Maine, you have to self quarantine for 14 days and I don't think they would let us into the hospital because we are from out of state.
If my dad were to pass, and it was just my mom, she has dementia and sometimes does not recognize my brothers.
I already had the talk with DH about him not risking anything to come to the hospital to hold my hand if I’m on the respirator and dying in COVID19 illness, or any right now for that matter. I will most likely be fully sedated and I wont know anyway, and I don’t want him risking his own health for something that may not really matter to me.
iris lilies
5-6-20, 10:21am
But people already are coming in, the carers are coming in, and they are living at home and could be asymptomatic, as you say. So you are already in a situation were the people are locked down, unable to interact with each other (lockdown in rooms, no dining hall, etc.,) unable to have family visit, and they are already having people coming in to care for them and work on the facility. So it's not like everyone is locked down in there with them. So I do not understand this:
". Because people are highly contagious before having symptoms it’s inevitable that an employee will bring it in and start the death spiral. For me that is simply an unacceptable consequence."
You already have employees coming and going; it is not a closed system like the space station or something.
The thinking is probably this: with health care workers unable to go out to bars and sporting arenas and etc,, they just trudge back and forth from home to work. Their exposure to risk is greatly reduced by a shut-down Depression level economy.
I know two young people in the fringe health care world who do exactly that, get home, strip, shower and change clothes, wash their shoes and previous day’s clothing. They are happy to have a job.
iris lilies
5-6-20, 10:31am
...My point has consistently been that older people of retirement age can stay home and should to protect themselves rather than locking down the whole country. If I could retire and stay home I would. If I were elderly and had a child volunteering to bring me my groceries I would accept. If I ran a nursing home I would mandate sanitary protocols and not cover up deaths. Going around in a state of anguish because people I don't even know died accomplishes nothing. If I died I wouldn't want everyone depressed.
I so much agree with this.
As an oldster I do appreciate the sacrifices the world is making for my benefit but am not convinced it all is a good idea, man oh man where is that going to get us in the long run.
for me the bottom line is: as someone in the high-risk pool I need to be very careful of my own health and take full responsibility for it. It’s not the governments job to keep me safe. For those who can easily self Quarantine we need to self quarantine, it really is that simple.
While we can make up all kinds of reasons in our head as to why it’s not necessary or our needs are bigger than the risk at which we are put ourselves, it is our patriotic duty to keep ourselves safe so that the rest of the world doesn’t have to.
Personally, I think an easy target of annoyance would be oldsters who seem to be cavorting around with little regard to their current risk. If we are looking for targets of derision they would be the first place I would go for that activity. Ha ha.I would not be keyboard targeting people who genuinely fear for their home and livelihood.
Right, IL, I get what you are saying about the respirator, although I was on a respirator and I knew when my family was there, I could hear them and sense their presence. But of course you dont want your husband to get it, that makes total sense.
It was more about if my dad dies, I feel the need to be there for my mom, and not to wait 17 days (3 days driving, 14 days self quarantine, although no place to self quarantine because motels are closed in Maine and NH.)
The thinking is probably this: with health care workers unable to go out to bars and sporting arenas and etc,, they just trudge back and forth from home to work. Their exposure to risk is greatly reduced by a shut-down Depression level economy.
I know two young people in the fringe health care world who do exactly that, get home, strip, shower and change clothes, wash their shoes and previous day’s clothing. They are happy to have a job.
yes, that is probably the thinking.
for me the bottom line is: as someone in the high-risk pool I need to be very careful of my own health and take full responsibility for it. . . it is our patriotic duty to keep ourselves safe so that the rest of the world doesn’t have to.
.
I agree; I actually have not encountered anyone who is cavorting around but maybe it's different where you live. And I don't go out much, haha.
iris lilies
5-6-20, 10:48am
I agree; I actually have not encountered anyone who is cavorting around but maybe it's different where you live. And I don't go out much, haha.
was thinking of my friend’s husband, age 70+ and not without health problems, who insists on continuing to work in a grocery store. They live in a chi chi suburb so there is some money there. She says they are ok without his earnings. I say for gods sake, cut that out.
flowerseverywhere
5-6-20, 11:07am
I agree; I actually have not encountered anyone who is cavorting around but maybe it's different where you live. And I don't go out much, haha.
I’m staying home except for a 6am walk where I rarely see anyone out. Yesterday other day went for a ride in the car that hadn’t moved in over a week. Happened to drive by a restaurant with an outdoor bar and the space was packed. When I do grocery pickup I see only about 20% of people going in wearing masks. Many of them elderly.
iris lilies
5-6-20, 11:54am
Maybe it is self rationalization, but I cavort around safely by talking a daily walk and regularly working in our community garden. I do not need to closely interact with humans or at all. I am burned out with the gardeners at the moment anyway and would rather NOT talk to them, hehehe.
Today I am planning to visit my friends’s iris garden. I will call them and tell them I am coming (it is open invitation for iris judges, always) and expect them to stay in the house, maybe coming out in the end of my visit and staying 6 feet away.
But people already are coming in, the carers are coming in, and they are living at home and could be asymptomatic, as you say. So you are already in a situation were the people are locked down, unable to interact with each other (lockdown in rooms, no dining hall, etc.,) unable to have family visit, and they are already having people coming in to care for them and work on the facility. So it's not like everyone is locked down in there with them. So I do not understand this:
". Because people are highly contagious before having symptoms it’s inevitable that an employee will bring it in and start the death spiral. For me that is simply an unacceptable consequence."
You already have employees coming and going; it is not a closed system like the space station or something.
That's my point exactly. Yppej keeps saying that the elderly and infirm can just self quarantine and be safe. But they can't. If they live at home and have someone who can bring them groceries, sure, those people can. But if they live in a nursing or assisted living facility they are very much at risk of contracting this disease if the facility's employees bring the virus in. And once they do they WILL spread it around. That's why we need to continue shelter in place for as many people as possible until we actually get the number of infections to head down significantly. Instead we have idiot states like Missouri doing things like allowing concerts to begin happening again on Monday. With actions like that despite the fact that infections increasing in Missouri it's only a matter of time before a few workers in those facilities bring death to a lot of the residents.
Teacher Terry
5-6-20, 1:55pm
Most hospitals aren’t allowing family so people are dying while the staff FaceTimes their families. Totally agree JP that people in nursing homes will be dropping like flies once states open. I am letting others shop for me. I have a 75 year old friend going in stores every day to get out despite having multiple serious health issues. Ugh!
ApatheticNoMore
5-6-20, 2:04pm
People working at nursing homes seem to be dying a fair amount as well. But they are younger. Maybe it has to do with viral load if a major covid infection has taken over the nursing home, that the staff then gets hit with a high viral load that even younger immune systems can succumb to, PPE may also be lacking. OF course the staff might be in higher risk categories themselves: minorities, poor etc.
Does anyone think that because some people have a peanut allergy that can be so serious they die from it we should ban peanuts and eradicate the plant from the planet since we do not have a vaccine or cure for peanut allergy? Should we find and destroy all peanuts, peanut butter, peanut brittle, and Reese's peanut butter cups lest anyone susceptible to them come into contact with them? Should all peanut farmers be thrown out of work? If we don't take these steps are we heartless? Or should we find a way to coexist with the peanut? Should people with peanut allergies take steps to minimize their exposure instead?
Peanut allergies are not contagious.... not a good analogy.
I heard today Texas says if your employer calls you back to work and you are over a certain age you do not have to return and can still keep collecting unemployment. I thought that was a good decision.
I saw on the news today airlines are considering social distancing. No more packing people tighter and tighter to maximize profits. Maybe if the sardine effect were not in effect on flights from China we would not be in this mess.
Of course putting less people on planes, or in restaurants for that matter, will mean that they will have to raise prices or lose money.
One change I’ve seen in my little city is the permanent closure of our small liberal arts college. They were in shaky financial condition before the recent crisis, which seems to have been the final, fatal blow. I’m also reading that our state university system has sustained a major loss of revenue. I’m wondering if we may see some changes in the way higher education is delivered.
A lot of comparisons have been made to the Spanish flu of 1918, which was followed be a decades long boom before the Great Depression hit. I think this will be the opposite - a decades long Great Depression before a boom. Much of our economy is driven by consumer confidence, which is driven by stable employment. In 1918 lots of younger people died, including soldiers. Now we see infected naval ships but with minimal deaths, and I am unaware of large outbreaks in military barracks.
Covid-19 is striking mainly elderly individuals who are not in the workforce. In my state the percent dead who were in nursing homes has risen from 50% to 60%. In a shrinking economy the labor force is not being reduced and there will not be enough jobs to go around for a long time.
Article (https://www.startribune.com/even-stronger-retail-players-from-mall-of-america-to-edina-s-evereve-are-strained/570317062/) in today's Minneapolis StarTribune about changes -- actual and planned -- being made by local businesses reacting to the coronavirus outbreak.
Interesting quote from an executive VP at the Mall of America on just how deep this can/will go:
New safety protocols will include plexiglass barriers at guest services and in food courts; designated doors for entering and exiting the mall; and social distancing markers on floors near digital directories [she didn't mention the elevators -- SinMN]. The mall is also evaluating each attraction in Nickelodeon Universe [indoor amusement park], weighing whether to require visitors to wear masks on certain rides.
[...]
And they are already thinking about how holiday shopping will change this year.
“We’re looking at what is the Santa experience going to look like? What is Black Friday going to look like?” Renslow said. “We have to plan for the future.”
I watched a zoom visit between the Directors of Museum of Modern Art, NY and the Art Gallery of Ontario, Toronto who were discussing the need for tourists to be willing to come back to NY and Toronto for so many tourist-based businesses. It is slowly becoming clear that all these changes and impacts will take some time to fully unfold.
I like the plexiglass barriers for checkout and desk clerks. Good for preventing contagion and people trying to throttle employees. :~)
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