View Full Version : Is COVID exposing a "weak, sniveling" culture?
I was a bit surprised to see this article in Mother Jones today: "Has America Become Weak and Sniveling" (https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2020/05/has-america-become-weak-and-sniveling/?fbclid=IwAR1u3H4cTF5YOSpekVMgSste9igP4OdR0YGpGaV8 uyVyyTcBvTpXeRfO5yc)
When I saw that I thought about one of IL's comments on another thread about 24/7 media stirring up fear, people today expecting ALL their needs to be taken care of by the government, and a lack of acceptance that sh*t happens in life.
Is there a low tolerance for sacrifice today? Have people lost their grit? What is the sweet spot between supporting the citizenry and allowing the chips to fall where they may? Are we too comfortable? Has the media reduced a serious health issue into a partisan affair by fomenting panic?
Simplemind
5-5-20, 11:22am
So many times during these past few weeks I have thought of my FIL. He was taken as a POW to Stalag Luft III right after the great escape. They were so enraged they shot every other prisoner going in as a warning. He was in for a year and a day. Barely enough food. Bread had sawdust in it, there was worms in the rest. No toilet paper and only one shower a week. No Netflix, Podcasts, Kindles or video games. The ultimate in distancing in my opinion.
We have been low but we have yet to run out of anything. We have stayed close to home but have been able to go out when needed. We are fed, we are entertained.
I've been surprised at people who I would have believed to be thoughtful and intelligent, think that this is a hoax and political. I'm not saying that the left and right can't impose an agenda but this isn't a hoax. Hello, this is world wide. There is something to be learned from the way each country has addressed it.
I have some very liberal friends and some very conservative in internet groups. Good Lord, I sometimes wonder if we are living on the same planet let alone the same country. They are so far apart in addressing this pandemic. The enemy can not be a virus, it must have two eyes and a political agenda. It is more important to impose blame than attend to the current situation. The media assists the division but I don't think it causes it. Ugly has been waiting its turn to shine for a long time.
I think the saddest thing about this pandemic, after people dying isolated and alone, is how quick people are to assume the worst about their fellow citizens. If someone thinks differently or questions what they are hearing, they are mocked and villified, called stupid, or called corrupt or venal, depending on who is doing the calling and what opinion is being questioned.
I think that those rushing to make social judgments on others, such as calling them weak, sniveling, heartless, feckless, moronic, etc. are making a spiritual error.
Only time will tell what was true in this whole situation, but we have certainly seen an awful lot of people willing to throw each other under the bus, and that is sad.
I think there has always been a “Hard America” and a “Soft America”. If there’s a real difference between now and past years, it may be less a shift between the actual proportions of the two than that Soft America has occupied a larger share of the media and educational space over the last half century or so. So a lot of the difference is just noise.
My thoughts and feelings exactly, Simplemind. :(
ApatheticNoMore
5-5-20, 12:49pm
men and their obsession with their hardness all the time ...
I think there has always been a “Hard America” and a “Soft America”.
I see that. I have, for years. Not that one is better than the other; just different. "Medium America" would be a great place to live. Where we are now; not so much.
I think of all the populations dealing with famine, civil war, ongoing violence in their countries of origin, disasters of all kinds...Most of my friends are doing OK; we all have food to spare, and our health. I'm hoping this won't go on forever, and I don't think COVID19 has anything to do with the Second Amendment, 5G networks, or Bill Gates. Good grief.
ApatheticNoMore
5-5-20, 1:49pm
What even is hard and soft, is hard blue collar work and soft white collar work? Is that the hard and soft America blue collar versus white collar jobs? I mean a white collar job may be stressful in 1000 ways but it's hard to see it as fitting into any stereotype of "hard". But do women even fit in with one's definition of hard or is it purely a male attribute with 50% of the population just kind of a forgotten sex? Never mind that I suspect we have excessive male dominance of the world as is.
I mean yea we lack good government, cohesiveness, willingness to actually make decent plans and follow them but um ...
iris lilies
5-5-20, 2:06pm
I dont see how sincere debate about this can take place.
Seems like it all will quickly devolve into class war, ageist wars, big vs small government war of words, 1% vs 99% war...all war of words of course.
But carry on!
I dont see how sincere debate about this can take place.
Seems like it all will quickly devolve into class war, ageist wars, big vs small government war of words, 1% vs 99% war...all war of words of course.
But carry on!
agree
Sorry--I didn't post this thread to start a war... I just thought it was interesting from a sociological perspective. I truly was surprised the Mother Jones, the bastion of liberal, progressive thinking, would lead with that kind of headline.
I still think a genteel debate about the notions of "comfort" vs "sacrifice" is interesting, especially in the context of 21st century culture, when we are far from 20th century hardships like the Great Depression and two World Wars--and if we can keep from antagonizing each other, I'd still be interested in your opinions.
ApatheticNoMore
5-5-20, 3:10pm
I'm not sure a sincere debate can take place because I'm not sure I accept the framing. Sacrifice depends on what one is asked to sacrifice. Courage too is often in the eye of the beholder, there are clear cases, but there are a lot of gray areas. Do I think people complaining about petty things like not getting their nails done are fools. Well yes I do.
I'm not sure those who think the government should do more do so because they are weak. I don't accept a framing of one's response to covid as not willing to accept that sh*t happens in life. That case would need to be made, that it was not badly handled in the U.S., but just a case of the U.S. being unlucky and sh*t happening. I'm not sure that's an easy argument to make. Even countries that handled it well had some deaths and that is a case of sh*t happening. That much I more than accept, but the U.S. (basket) case ...
I don't think one can make blanket statements about whether people have lost their grit, when it takes so many so much grit just to get through the day in this society. The fools who want their nails done and the like, yes fine whatever, those who issues are primarily consumerist are incredibly privileged (and entitled but that often comes with privileged) folks and you can't generalize much from them.
One could also make the argument that it's the "open things up now" people who lack grit. Yes, shutting things down sucks, but it had a legitimate purpose. Australia, New Zealand, Hawaii, seem to have had the grit to stick with it for long enough that it accomplished, or at least is accomplishing, the original goal of getting the caseload down to the point that testing/tracking/quarantining of any infectious person can succeed. Much of the rest of the US, not so much. So now we've decimated our economy, but haven't reached any of the goals of significantly slowing the spread of the virus or ramping up testing to anywhere near the levels to be able to contain it, and a lot of states are giving up. All of the effort and sacrifice wasted because now cases of illness and death are almost certain to move in an upward trajectory, possibly significantly.
Since it's been labeled debateless, I'll just say I'm with Simplemind.
One could also make the argument that it's the "open things up now" people who lack grit. Yes, shutting things down sucks, but it had a legitimate purpose. Australia, New Zealand, Hawaii, seem to have had the grit to stick with it for long enough that it accomplished, or at least is accomplishing, the original goal of getting the caseload down to the point that testing/tracking/quarantining of any infectious person can succeed. Much of the rest of the US, not so much. So now we've decimated our economy, but haven't reached any of the goals of significantly slowing the spread of the virus or ramping up testing to anywhere near the levels to be able to contain it, and a lot of states are giving up. All of the effort and sacrifice wasted because now cases of illness and death are almost certain to move in an upward trajectory, possibly significantly.
Decimated would be 10%. I have heard on the news that some experts expect the next monthly report to show 40% unemployment.
It is always hard to compare or even relate the present to the past. What people felt during the WW1 or WW2 wars was different to the present. What the general population expected even in the 50's compared today's expectations is different. It is like comparing apples and oranges - some people seeing these fruit for the first time will have different responses and expectations from those who have had access to them all their life.
World thought has changed tremendously. I know some in communities in the 1970's and earlier who had never traveled beyond 20 miles away their entire life. They saw no need to. I think that a number still feel that way.
Government , jobs and services are now located in larger centres remote from smaller communities. Think of the number of bank branches that have closed in smaller communities as all are expected to go online.
While I think that this could be a good question to explore, it strikes me that an assessment of the parameters is needed first.
Simplemind's story about her FIL and the prison camp reminds me of a story my dad told about the German prisoners that were in prison camps in South Carolina. They were treated very well, and worked on local farms, and many stayed and married locally after the war. He said that they became outraged at being fed white bread, as they were used to rich whole grain bread, and they even rioted over the bread, saying that it lacked nutritional value.
One could also make the argument that it's the "open things up now" people who lack grit. Yes, shutting things down sucks, but it had a legitimate purpose. Australia, New Zealand, Hawaii, seem to have had the grit to stick with it for long enough that it accomplished, or at least is accomplishing, the original goal of getting the caseload down to the point that testing/tracking/quarantining of any infectious person can succeed. Much of the rest of the US, not so much. So now we've decimated our economy, but haven't reached any of the goals of significantly slowing the spread of the virus or ramping up testing to anywhere near the levels to be able to contain it, and a lot of states are giving up. All of the effort and sacrifice wasted because now cases of illness and death are almost certain to move in an upward trajectory, possibly significantly.
One could certainly make that argument. I have a FB friend who posted the following: "I want to go to a restaurant and have someone cook, serve and clean up. And make me a nice drink. Time to start opening up businesses." This is from a privileged household with 2 homes, a boat, kids in private schools. I guess it's time to start opening up because you want to go out to eat? They are Trump supporters. We are tougher in my household because we are better able to withstand restaurant deprivation. :)
Wow, with FB friends like that, who needs enemies?
iris lilies
5-5-20, 6:36pm
Seems like it all will quickly devolve into class war, ageist wars, big vs small government war of words, 1% vs 99% war...all war of words of course.
But carry on!
add to the list above: Trump supporters vs. Trump detractors. Doh, so obvious dont know how I forgot that.
add to the list above: Trump supporters vs. Trump detractors. Doh, so obvious dont know how I forgot that.In some circles it's a moving target, Bush supporter, Obama hater, Trump supporter are all popular terms of derision. They're necessary to separate the good from the bad.
In some circles it's a moving target, Bush supporter, Obama hater, Trump supporter are all popular terms of derision. They're necessary to separate the good from the bad.
Read this today... quote by G.K. Chesterton
"Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable."
Decimated would be 10%. I have heard on the news that some experts expect the next monthly report to show 40% unemployment.
40% unemployment vs 50% dead folks in nursing homes (your stat from a different thread). Talk about decimated.i think even a conservative like Ldahl trying to be even keel would struggle to say that 50% dead people in nursing homes is anything other than f’ing horrific.
But sure. Old people are useless and gonna die in a year or two. Just push that timeline up a bit. No big deal. Smh.
Teacher Terry
5-6-20, 12:25am
Many people in their 60’s have 20 more years and we just retired and might want to actually enjoy them. Now kids are getting a syndrome that is really bad from the virus. Are they expendable too?
ApatheticNoMore
5-6-20, 2:12am
Neither the pandemic nor the economic consequences had to be so bad if we had decent people in power and decent policy.
(and yes it reveals a heck of a lot of latent ageism, I mean sure there are old people for whom death might in some cases be blessing, say those with dementia etc., but it really admits no generalization, there are old people with good healthy lucid years left).
long term (after this pandemic is over) result of this is we aren't even going to have adequate medical personnel I suspect. Some because they have died tragically, but also how many will continue to be in that field after the pandemic passes in a country that can't even provide adequate PPE, rather than either: 1) leaving the country, really the best idea if it's feasible and skillsets and entanglements allow or 2) leaving the profession.
40% unemployment vs 50% dead folks in nursing homes (your stat from a different thread). Talk about decimated.i think even a conservative like Ldahl trying to be even keel would struggle to say that 50% dead people in nursing homes is anything other than f’ing horrific.
But sure. Old people are useless and gonna die in a year or two. Just push that timeline up a bit. No big deal. Smh.
Once again you are fact challenged. It is not 50% dead in nursing homes. In the very hardest hit facilities it is maybe half who contract the virus, and of those around half who die. So more like 25% in worst case scenarios.
Many people in their 60’s have 20 more years and we just retired and might want to actually enjoy them. Now kids are getting a syndrome that is really bad from the virus. Are they expendable too?
What percent of people in their 60's are in nursing homes? The average age of a corona death is in their 80's.
Neither the pandemic nor the economic consequences had to be so bad if we had decent people in power and decent policy.
(and yes it reveals a heck of a lot of latent ageism, I mean sure there are old people for whom death might in some cases be blessing, say those with dementia etc., but it really admits no generalization, there are old people with good healthy lucid years left).
long term (after this pandemic is over) result of this is we aren't even going to have adequate medical personnel I suspect. Some because they have died tragically, but also how many will continue to be in that field after the pandemic passes in a country that can't even provide adequate PPE, rather than either: 1) leaving the country, really the best idea if it's feasible and skillsets and entanglements allow or 2) leaving the profession.
People with healthy years ahead are unlikely to die from this. For instance, in my state 97.5% of those who die have underlying medical conditions.
Once again you are fact challenged. It is not 50% dead in nursing homes. In the very hardest hit facilities it is maybe half who contract the virus, and of those around half who die. So more like 25% in worst case scenarios.
25% dead in a nursing home is a win for you? Seriously?
25% dead in a nursing home is a win for you? Seriously?
I never said it was a win. You twist statistics and facts and then throw out red herrings.
ApatheticNoMore
5-6-20, 11:35am
Almost everyone has underlying medical conditions, you are talking a country of obese diabetics with heart disease. So just those with underlying medical conditions ...
People with healthy years ahead are unlikely to die from this. For instance, in my state 97.5% of those who die have underlying medical conditions.
Tell that to the dead RNs, RTs, Docs, CNAs.........all considerably healthy younger people.
I know my colleagues don't count in all of this>:(
Tell that to the dead RNs, RTs, Docs, CNAs.........all considerably healthy younger people.
I know my colleagues don't count in all of this>:(
Stop making sense.
Almost everyone has underlying medical conditions, you are talking a country of obese diabetics with heart disease. So just those with underlying medical conditions ...
If we expect this virus to be around awhile and no vaccine for maybe 18 months wouldn't it make sense to put out public health messages about quitting smoking, losing weight, lowering sugar intake, etc? But no, let's make all the people making good lifestyle choices wear masks because the current system of chronic illnesses tied to lifestyle choices feeds the demand for tobacco and pharmaceuticals, and only other pharmaceuticals like risperidol or a vaccine can save us. We can't expect common sense and preventive medicine. As part of this line of thinking while I can't get a decent pair of sneakers to replace mine that wore out, trying them on to make sure they fit well, so that I can exercise, you better believe the liquor stores are all open as so-called essential businesses.
Apparently the virus is not passed through the respiratory system but the feet!
The people I know are all currently taking prudent measures to protect themselves and others, and I expect will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
Being young and seemingly healthy doesn't confer immortality; I've read a lot of anecdotes of people fitting that description being struck down by this.
I prefer statistics to anecdotes. Remember too the media is not going to seize on the story of the 60,000th senior to get the disease, but on the 100th young person.
Teacher Terry
5-6-20, 8:12pm
There are plenty of healthy people that still develop chronic conditions, have heart attacks, etc. I wish it was as simple as lifestyle.
There are plenty of healthy people that still develop chronic conditions, have heart attacks, etc. I wish it was as simple as lifestyle.
Playing devil's advocate here, but why even try to be healthy then? Maybe our current approach with increasing rates of obesity and its supposedly related illness is just fine, because you can't tie illness to lifestyle. It's a fake tie.
ApatheticNoMore
5-6-20, 8:34pm
There are those risk factors and then there are risk factors tied to social position really. And they aren't entirely separable but sometimes they are. Things like asthma that's tied to pollution exposure in formative years, that's tied to poverty etc..
But places like the south are said to be at higher risk than normal because of high obesity rates but can't wait to reopen everything, go figure.
There are ways to handle things other than sacrifice the weak (although the lack of self-awareness among some like obese people protesting, that they ARE the weak does take the cake - it's a cookbook!). But ways this country is capable of, I don't know anymore.
Stop making sense.
One of my many faults.
I've decided those not in healthcare will never really understand Bae. They don't want the truth, the facts, the real shit. And no one will choose the family member to die either.
Yup, many faults.
Playing devil's advocate here, but why even try to be healthy then? Maybe our current approach with increasing rates of obesity and its supposedly related illness is just fine, because you can't tie illness to lifestyle. It's a fake tie.
OMG are you for real? Twist every comment to suit your argument.:(
Teacher Terry
5-7-20, 12:31am
My cousin had type 1 diabetes at a year and my son had asthma at 1 year. They chose a unhealthy lifestyle. Ugh!
My cousin had type 1 diabetes at a year and my son had asthma at 1 year. They chose a unhealthy lifestyle. Ugh!
It's the same thinking that believes poverty is a moral failure.
Teacher Terry
5-7-20, 12:55pm
Of course people as a whole with healthy lifestyles have better outcomes but not necessarily on a individual basis. I lost 3 very healthy friends to cancer. A good friend of mine that was a health nut got a heart virus and had a transplant. As I have mentioned frequently everyone on my mom’s side of the family ends up with HBP between 31-50. My 47 year old son was the latest one despite being in great shape. But it’s sure more fun to blame the victim. Personally I would rather be laid off and have to struggle financially than see people die. But then again I actually care about people in general. Even though my kids are all being hurt immensely and are going to have to make big lifestyle changes to not be homeless I am proud of them because they support the shutdown.
Is COVID exposing a "weak, sniveling" culture? (http://www.simplelivingforum.net/showthread.php?18363-Is-COVID-exposing-a-quot-weak-sniveling-quot-culture/page3)
Based upon the comments in multiple covid related threads, I think yes.
Is herd immunity the best way to eliminate the threat? I think yes.
Is an increased loss of life while herd immunity formulates a bad thing? I think yes
Are poor life choices often a contributing factor in health problems and poverty? I think yes
Is one locality wrong to ease restrictions earlier or more completely than other localities? I think no
Is it wrong to try and balance adverse health outcomes with adverse economic outcomes? I think no
Am I an asshole for thinking these thoughts? I think no, I'm an asshole for other reasons.
Am I a bad person for disagreeing with you on any of those points? Only in your mind.
Teacher Terry
5-7-20, 1:29pm
Everyone knows we can’t stay locked down forever. We don’t know if people will develop herd immunity and there are now 8 different strands of it. They think some people have gotten it twice.
Based on past performances of my immune system, I think I'd survive--but this is new. Weird symptoms that don't go away, questionable immunity, and if you're unlucky, lengthy hospitalization and death. I've never given a second thought to the flu, and never had a flu shot. Probably never will, as I think they're about as good as a placebo in any given year. If there proves to be a vaccine/protective treatment (UV light! Injected household disinfectants! Hdroxychloroquine! :D), I might get it.
Based on past performances of my immune system, I think I'd survive--but this is new. Weird symptoms that don't go away, questionable immunity, and if you're unlucky, lengthy hospitalization and death. I've never given a second thought to the flu, and never had a flu shot. Probably never will, as I think they're about as good as a placebo in any given year. If there proves to be a vaccine/protective treatment (UV light! Injected household dinisnfectants! Hdroxychloroquine! :D), I might get it.
I’ll let others be guinea pigs first. The rush is on to get SOMETHING to try. As they say, YLMV.
iris lilies
5-7-20, 4:42pm
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yeesh, THAT was harsh! Experienced my first COVID19 sacrifice in 8 weeks. My home wifi went down. I couldnt skip off to the library because CLOSED. I couldnt slip into coffee shop #1 because CLOSED. Coffee shop #2==yep, CLOSED. Couldnt leave town to go to Hermann to use wifi there because gotta stay for the wifi fixer to come.
Just call me a weak sniveler! Life without wifi barely worth living!
Today the wifi Tech Came to fix it i and found that pieces of cable were missing in the outside connections.
The thug contingent, always an enterprising group of lads, were cutting wires to steal the copper.
I feel so sorry for my mominlaw. TV receiver box went out, (Xfinity). Called Sunday and they are mailing another box. Called today and it was delayed due to covid should be here Monday. She is alone with pretty much TV and books for entertainment. Offered to have her come up her tomorrow and binge TV, get meals, etc. She said no. Oh, well. Cannot kidnap her Guess I should not feel so sorry for her.
Today the wifi Tech Came to fix it i and found that pieces of cable were missing in the outside connections.
The thug contingent, always an enterprising group of lads, were cutting wires to steal the copper.
Can you plant poison ivy around it?
It's not just people who can be weak and sniveling, but institutions. Pandemics have been predicted for a long time but health care executives put their money into shareholder profits and exorbitant executive compensation and fancy building projects and concierge services to attract patients for elective procedures. They could have been buying PPE. Now they want the government to rescue them, not only with supplies, but with financial bailouts.
It's curious that businesses that preach the value of having emergency funds and saving money and paying the bills on time make billions of dollars and pay almost no taxes on it -- and can't go more than a couple-three weeks without looking for a bailout...
invisibleflash
5-11-20, 8:44pm
OP...maybe. Definitely not like the old timers.
3213
Here are how they lived in the dust bowl era.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAVQaYdF6nQ
iris lilies
5-12-20, 3:17pm
Can you plant poison ivy around it?
the thievery didnt take place on my land. I don’t know exactly where it did take place, someplace between our box at the alley and the relay station.
gimmethesimplelife
5-16-20, 10:33pm
men and their obsession with their hardness all the time ...LOL. All I'm going to say here. LOL. Rob
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