View Full Version : I feel guilty but.....
gimmethesimplelife
5-29-20, 6:44am
That I did the right thing regardless.
Protests of the Minneapolis PD Murder came to Phoenix.....and I didn't go. Afraid of the pandemic. I have elder care to deal with as does SO. But I still feel guilty for not going - like I've given America consent to murder.
What twisted times we live in. Rob
Hey, I haven’t raised a finger about the Chinese cracking down on Hong Kong, and I’m sleeping well at night.
happystuff
5-29-20, 8:44am
You can only do what you can, when you can. If you can't be there in person, be there in spirit.
Rob, what if you went and things turned violent?
I'm glad you're safely at home.
Minneapolis has failed its citizens, IMO. At least one of the officers involved in Floyd's murder had numerous previous complaints. The percentage of head-bangers on any police force need to be quickly dealt with and summarily dismissed, for the good of all of us.
If you don't care for yourself, you can't care for others.
No guilt!
There are other ways to protest:
- calls and letters to representatives
- volunteer labor to civil rights organizations
- donations to civil rights organizations
- reaching out and educating friends and relatives
- ...
ApatheticNoMore
5-29-20, 12:00pm
For all my experience at contacting government, Senators and House Reps, governors and state Senators and state House Reps, county board members, etc.. every impression has always been they could not care less what constituents think. It could not mean less than nothing to them.
So I do it, but it's mostly ritualistic. If I was rich or famous maybe it would be different.
iris lilies
5-29-20, 2:56pm
For all my experience at contacting government, Senators and House Reps, governors and state Senators and state House Reps, county board members, etc.. every impression has always been they could not care less what constituents think. It could not mean less than nothing to them.
So I do it, but it's mostly ritualistic. If I was rich or famous maybe it would be different.
I don’t know what you expect when you contact your government officials. I am one person one vote one voice. I give them my opinion. They can pay attention to it or not, but of course they pay attention to what their constituents say because they want to get reelected. That doesn’t mean that they are going to act in the way you tell them to act, not at all.
Our city alderman is very good and he shows up in our neighborhood regularly to Membership meetings in fact he doesn’t miss one. He’s always reporting on what he’s doing. he followed someone in that position who is a very strong older woman who was there for decades. Also good. Another past alderman from the other side of our neighborhood is now number two in the city just below the mayor. So our local politicians are very good.
So I donated money to our alderman‘s reelection campaign and he’ll win because he won’t have any serious contenders, but unfortunately I am now in the democratic donor database and I get contacted from other candidates who I will not respond to
tbh Minneapolis (and St. Paul) did not need any more well-meaning protesters from other states than we already had. In fact, I was disappointed to see Al Sharpton make the trip; I really do not see what he adds to the conversation. There are plenty of African-Americans here who understand what's going on, what could fix it, and how to discuss it effectively. It's not like we needed the press coverage on Sharpton; it was already here.
Our home is at least five miles from the mayhem seen in the news. There was some looting at the liquor store a few blocks from our house but that was the extent of our excitement other than watching streets we've traveled and stores we've shopped in, trashed.
We are trying to make sense out of what we see as an outsized reaction to Floyd's death. Peaceful protest, certainly. Deaths like Floyd's happen far too often -- they almost seem scripted. I can understand how people of all colors have had enough and are seeking real change. I can see that tempers would flare. They should; this has to stop. That was the first night.
By the second night, though, it seems like people who had time and motive arrived; people who didn't care as much about Floyd's death and the way black people are treated as they did about an opportunity to "bust $#!+ up" and get their anarchist groove on. The destruction was just senseless. They didn't hit only jewelry stores and pawn shops; they vandalized thrift stores and auto parts stores. They looted and burned a minority-owned store that sold wigs and did a fair amount of trade with people of color and transgender individuals. They broke into the local library FFS. All this in poorer areas, primarily residents who are people of color, where rebuilding will take years, if not decades, leaving residents with immediate problems in buying groceries and in getting prescriptions refilled and cell-phone service continued, and longer-term problems in getting individual shop owners to rebuild.
I don't get involved in the policy forum here because every issue seems to end up with the same people on the same sides and nobody ever seems to change their mind. Maybe I'm just very naive about this, but this does not seem like boiled-over rage at another arrest of a black man that suddenly turned into death. This is by no means only a local issue -- this happens all over the U.S. -- but it seems orchestrated to me. Even dogs know not to crap where they sleep. The destruction that occurred here not only took everyone's eyes off former-officer Chauvin's bad judgement but it made life worse -- today, tomorrow, and, likely, for years to come -- for thousands of people who didn't need to lose a(nother) rung or two on the ladder of life.
ApatheticNoMore
5-29-20, 4:21pm
tbh Minneapolis (and St. Paul) did not need any more well-meaning protesters from other states than we already had.
no doubt true, but in Rob's post he was talking about attending a local protest in *Phoenix* (about Minneapolis etc. but IN Phoenix) and not being able to.
I immediately thought of the LA riots of 1992. Almost 30 years ago and has anyone learned anything?
tbh Minneapolis (and St. Paul) did not need any more well-meaning protesters from other states than we already had. In fact, I was disappointed to see Al Sharpton make the trip; I really do not see what he adds to the conversation. There are plenty of African-Americans here who understand what's going on, what could fix it, and how to discuss it effectively. It's not like we needed the press coverage on Sharpton; it was already here.
Our home is at least five miles from the mayhem seen in the news.
Thank you for the REAL life view on what is happening there. I've never understood looting of any sort-it all destroys someones' livelihood and likely that of several families in a small business.
I am sorry for the destruction and ensuing havoc created there.
ApatheticNoMore
5-29-20, 4:25pm
I immediately thought of the LA riots of 1992. Almost 30 years ago and has anyone learned anything?
Fake committees that don't do anything, that are pure grift were put into place and exist to this day, I'm not sure what else.
no doubt true, but in Rob's post he was talking about attending a local protest in *Phoenix* and not being able to.
Not the impression I got from this thread (http://www.simplelivingforum.net/showthread.php?18409-Annoyed-by-the-pandemic):
SO and I would like to be in Minneapolis protesting right now - but can't wisely do so due to travel risk. It could be said that if there were no pandemic, we'd be working and unable to go - true enough - but it still bites anyway.
I have so so so much respect for the activists on the ground and do dislike myself a bit for not being there.
In fairness, I don't see Rob as one of those "bust $#!+ up" anarchists. But I don't think any place needs outsiders coming in to an already volatile situation.
iris lilies
5-29-20, 4:30pm
The Ferguson riots were the same here, picking up steam in subsequent days due to out-of-towners wanting in on the action.The real protestors with sincere intent went home at night, but that’s when the destructive element came out.
As an aside, I watchEd the video clip of the Cup store owner where George Floyd was picked up, or maybe he was the manager? Anyway, the guy with the Arab name. Boy did he come off well on the video. Man they should hire him for regular PR work for I don’t know What, but hire him! He was well spoken, sincere, and convincing.
Hey, I haven’t raised a finger about the Chinese cracking down on Hong Kong, and I’m sleeping well at night.
'Justice will not be served until those who are unaffected are as outraged as those who are." Benjamin Franklin
I know you are not as complacent about justice as you sometimes appear to be, LDAHL, but I thought this was a fitting response to your post to Rob.
Not the impression I got from this thread (http://www.simplelivingforum.net/showthread.php?18409-Annoyed-by-the-pandemic):
However, in the initial post of this thread, started a bit later in time, Rob says:
Protests of the Minneapolis PD Murder came to Phoenix.....and I didn't go.
Seems to indicate it is a Phoenix-located protest he didn't go to.
I think it would have been foolish to self-deploy to a disaster zone to "protest", whatever that would mean in these circumstances. Working locally though doesn't seem particularly problematic.
I saw the Minnesota governor's presentation today, he seems like a decent leader.
frugal-one
5-29-20, 4:52pm
Talked to my son earlier today. He called to tell us he was leaving his home in Minneapolis but not yet sure where to go but to let us know he was ok in case we called. There were fires all around, people protesting the last few nights in the streets in front of his house and down the street, altercations with police, gun shots all night, neighborhood stores trashed, police station and apartment building still burning. He was being texted that the white supremists were being called into the area with guns (I don't know who was texting). These were not locals (as SteveinMN) also stated. He was really freaked by it all. He said to watch unicorn riot on YouTube to see what is happening.
I think it would have been foolish to self-deploy to a disaster zone to "protest", whatever that would mean in these circumstances. Working locally though doesn't seem particularly problematic.
I don't know.....there were violent protests in Columbus Ohio as well. https://fox8.com/news/protesters-storm-ohio-statehouse-police-use-tear-gas-to-disperse-crowd/
750 or so miles doesn't seem to be far enough away from the source to keep people from acting out and I understand there's been similar mayhem in other cities as well. It's getting hard to tell the difference between protests and riots.
I don't know.....
By "not problematic", in the context "self-deploy to a disaster zone" I was referring to the impact well-meaning disaster tourists can have on impacted area, placing additional burdens on law enforcement, ems, fire, search & rescue, food supplies, housing, and all that good stuff.
It is a practice discouraged by most disaster management professionals.
If Rob wants to peacefully protest locally, he won't be making a bad situation worse in the impacted area.
By "not problematic", in the context "self-deploy to a disaster zone" I was referring to the impact well-meaning disaster tourists can have on impacted area.
OK, Gotcha. I like that term "well meaning disaster tourists", I think I'll be using that at some point if you don't mind.
I don't get involved in the policy forum here because every issue seems to end up with the same people on the same sides and nobody ever seems to change their mind.
I know you've mentioned this before and I respect your take on it but I think it's a losing proposition to expect to change anyone's mind about things they feel strongly about. The best anyone can do is try to provide another viewpoint they may not get elsewhere. And without a variety of differing views, I think we run into what I call the "M*A*S*H*" Syndrome. When that TV show premiered I thought it was a wonderful example of comedy/drama with likeable characters. Eventually though, Hawkeye and BJ took on a lot of the writing/directing of episodes and further served to set the tone for all episodes. That's when it began to suck, so remembering that, some of us might feel the need to keep that from happening here. But that's just my 2¢.
ApatheticNoMore
5-29-20, 5:56pm
not to mention spreading covid all over the country :~)
But even if that wasn't the case, I'd tend to see going to protests in states one doesn't even live as real suspicious of being astroturf, unless it's D.C. (well we all live with the Fed gov).
I know you've mentioned this before and I respect your take on it but I think it's a losing proposition to expect to change anyone's mind about things they feel strongly about. The best anyone can do is try to provide another viewpoint they may not get elsewhere. And without a variety of differing views, I think we run into what I call the "M*A*S*H*" Syndrome.
Oh, I gave up a long time ago on changing minds. The lingering suspicion remains, however, that some participants are doctrinaire enough to not even want to entertain other notions. The other part of not participating there is not wanting to spend much more time on these forums (and others) than I do. Opinion is not enough; it must be buttressed with citations and such, and rounding all that up takes time. My life would be significantly more healthful if I had more hobbies that didn't require sitting in one place for long periods of time. :)
One doesn’t need to go away to protest. Plenty of those around the country. And plenty that are getting violent, as well. Two federal law enforcement officers, who are part of the branch that guard federal buildings, were shot yesterday, one killed, while protecting a federal building in Oakland, CA.
Apparently things got dicey in Indianapolis last night, too. I would not have thought Indy. But apparently bad characters all across the country are using the Minneapolis incident to loot and burn.
Protests are one of the few events you can go to these days in most states, so they may draw bored people with little interest in effective change.
Don't forget that some of the bad actors are (paid?) provocateurs. https://www.insider.com/minneapolis-protesters-social-media-users-suspicious-of-umbrella-man-2020-5
Don't forget that some of the bad actors are (paid?) provocateurs. https://www.insider.com/minneapolis-protesters-social-media-users-suspicious-of-umbrella-man-2020-5
Yes. If you can’t trust unconfirmed speculation what can you trust?
My favorite example is the Slate article linking the looting of a Target store with their support of outside security cameras.
I immediately thought of the LA riots of 1992. Almost 30 years ago and has anyone learned anything?
Yes, the burnt out retailers who didn’t return.
sweetana3
5-30-20, 11:05am
Live in Indianapolis We had a large peaceful organized protest which was pretty well handled on each side. Then they were "invaded" by others at around midnight who proceeded to riot and damage all kinds of downtown properties. Arson attack on a pharmacy, damage to statues, looting, etc. The organizers ended the protest and tried to stop what was going on but had no control over the people who came to riot.
I only live one mile from there and have considered ensuring I have my short shotgun and shells easily accessible. But it was so quiet here we did not know what was going on until the morning news.
Rioting even happened in Ft Wayne, IN
https://www.wane.com/news/local-news/last-night-was-not-fort-wayne-29-arrested-clean-up-underway/
If you have firearms, best keep them accessible.
iris lilies
5-30-20, 11:24am
The St. Louis rioting started at the main police headquarters which is a mile from where I live. They moved onto Highway 70, mile and a half from me. But I never worried about it, not even really keeping track of it because we’re not on a path to anything.
If we were between the police headquarters and Highway 70, that would be of concern but we are not. If we were a business that carefully and conscientiously served the African-American community, we would be very worried because those seem like popular targets.
ToomuchStuff
5-30-20, 1:46pm
Slight difference now, how many of the burned businesses, were going to survive? A cynical part of me, thinks that there will be businesses, who tried to lure rioters and arsonists, so they get the insurance, or federal disaster area payout. (closing due to stay at home orders)
How many businesses, did the rooftop Korean thing (92 riots)?
Slight difference now, how many of the burned businesses, were going to survive? A cynical part of me, thinks that there will be businesses, who tried to lure rioters and arsonists, so they get the insurance, or federal disaster area payout. (closing due to stay at home orders)
How many businesses, did the rooftop Korean thing (92 riots)?
The MSP burned businesses I've seen detailed were a Target store, pharmacy (Walgreens, I think), auto parts store. In MSP, a brand new apartment building (think it might have been still under construction) was burned.
Added: And how do you explain the burned businesses in Ferguson? Do you really think they lured people to burn them down?
Talk about conspiracy theories!
I think it was the auto parts store that was targeted by the gas-masked guy with a hammer. There are rumors he is a police officer, due to the type of mask. That kind of action may be in play in other areas as well.
Read that local military police are in "make ready" status to be deployed if the mayhem continues.
I think it was the auto parts store that was targeted by the gas-masked guy with a hammer. There are rumors he is a police officer, due to the type of mask. That kind of action may be in play in other areas as well.
And a new conspiracy theory is born. Or at least an old one recycled.
I heard that Bob Barr's Justice Dept., sent operatives to every major US city to stir the peaceful protesters into a violent rage in order to justify their murder by National Guard troops. (Not really but if it becomes a lede on CNN, remember you heard it here first)
ToomuchStuff
5-30-20, 3:09pm
The MSP burned businesses I've seen detailed were a Target store, pharmacy (Walgreens, I think), auto parts store. In MSP, a brand new apartment building (think it might have been still under construction) was burned.
Added: And how do you explain the burned businesses in Ferguson? Do you really think they lured people to burn them down?
Talk about conspiracy theories!
Reading comprehension here. Difference, means not the same. Ferguson was different and in a different time. Some auto parts stores are doing OK here, while others that are in a more residential based area, are not doing as well.
I have not seen a list of the complete places that have been damaged or destroyed, and am not sure the rioters are done being destructive a holes.
ApatheticNoMore
5-30-20, 3:35pm
Slight difference now, how many of the burned businesses, were going to survive? A cynical part of me, thinks that there will be businesses, who tried to lure rioters and arsonists, so they get the insurance, or federal disaster area payout. (closing due to stay at home orders)
I've thought it too. Restaurants here (pre-covid and pre-economic collapse and without riots) have "mysteriously" caught fire after being shut down by the health department. More than one. Hmm ..
gimmethesimplelife
5-30-20, 3:38pm
WOW! SteveinMN really stopped me in my tracks and made me think. And he's right. It is adding to instability for an outsider such as myself to travel to the Twin Cities to protest. He's right.....I always thought it was my duty to travel when possible to fight the truth of American police - but Steve is right - and plenty of folks are protesting for me that live there. In as much as I maintain that the most recent cold blooded murder committed by the Minneapolis PD is a direct threat and affront to the physical safety and well being of each and every American - I get that there is no need for me to be there.
Stay safe from the police SteveinMN and everyone else! They really are spinning out of control and are destroying the nation's social fabric. Rob
frugal-one
5-30-20, 3:43pm
Yes. If you can’t trust unconfirmed speculation what can you trust?
My favorite example is the Slate article linking the looting of a Target store with their support of outside security cameras.
My son left his home today in Minneapolis. He said the air quality was very bad based on the fires and feared the violence was getting worse. He hated to leave his home but felt the need to flee. He commented that people there doing the damage were not all locals. The white men were taking dumpsters and lighting them on fire in the street. My son heard them ask "wonder what it is like for the people who live here." People were coming from all over... one from Indiana. This is NOT SPECULATION but from one who lives there. I have not heard from him yet. I hope he made it out ok.
A cop car is being burned in Philly right now.
Damage last night in Atlanta was in high end areas. https://www.ajc.com/news/local/volunteers-owners-help-clean-remnants-riots-worry-about-more/U7AhNpPrYHqBpQdFd0Y3tK/
Ft Wayne, IN: windows in a Hilton hotel and a Jimmy John's sub restaurant were broken: https://www.wane.com/top-stories/protesters-break-windows-of-multiple-buildings-in-downtown-fort-wayne/?fbclid=IwAR3NWQy7j8RRoyHDEGMOyvj6ffQsZ9_j4oM2u7Yi kxxYktRla7mKjb7do_Y
Chicago: big protest downtown right now. Peaceful at this time. https://wgntv.com/on-air/live-streaming-sc/
I think it was the auto parts store that was targeted by the gas-masked guy with a hammer. There are rumors he is a police officer, due to the type of mask. That kind of action may be in play in other areas as well.
I don't see anything particularly "policey" about the mask that particular person was wearing.
Maybe the original peaceful protestors should have come armed with assault rifles like the protestors in Michigan a few weeks ago. Surely the cops would have Just stood back and let them protest like happened in Michigan. And then when the outsiders showed up maybe they would have thought twice when confronted with protestors carrying so many guns.
iris lilies
5-30-20, 4:31pm
In my spin about the nearby neighborhoods here this afternoon I ran across a group of six young women all dressed in black —black jeans black shirts dark tennis shoes and black masks, and I thought that’s weird. ,And then I saw that one of them was stuffing cardboard signs into her trunk and I get it – they’re going out to the protest. It’s a beautiful beautiful day in St. Louis and it will be a beautiful evening and the riots are gonna be big.
In the past couple weeks I was just about ready to put out my “thank you Police “ sign as I take it in and out throughout the years to kind of give it a rest, I think that now is not a good time to put it up. Although I do have one particularly annoying neighbor who I know it would bug, so I would love to put it up just for him.
I have a couple of friends from the island now down in Seattle live-streaming the protest today, sort of fascinating to watch, and hear narration from people I know and trust.
iris lilies
5-30-20, 4:40pm
WOW! SteveinMN really stopped me in my tracks and made me think. And he's right. It is adding to instability for an outsider such as myself to travel to the Twin Cities to protest. He's right....RoB
But I thought that was the point of protests, to promote “instability.“
gimmethesimplelife
5-30-20, 4:45pm
But I thought that was the point of protests, to promote “instability.“Ummmmm......no. Not in my world, IL. It's about standing up to and calling attention to injustice. Rob
Maybe the original peaceful protestors should have come armed with assault rifles like the protestors in Michigan a few weeks ago. Surely the cops would have Just stood back and let them protest like happened in Michigan. And then when the outsiders showed up maybe they would have thought twice when confronted with protestors carrying so many guns.Good point, a well armed populace promotes peace.
gimmethesimplelife
5-30-20, 5:07pm
A cop car is being burned in Philly right now.
Damage last night in Atlanta was in high end areas. https://www.ajc.com/news/local/volunteers-owners-help-clean-remnants-riots-worry-about-more/U7AhNpPrYHqBpQdFd0Y3tK/
Ft Wayne, IN: windows in a Hilton hotel and a Jimmy John's sub restaurant were broken: https://www.wane.com/top-stories/protesters-break-windows-of-multiple-buildings-in-downtown-fort-wayne/?fbclid=IwAR3NWQy7j8RRoyHDEGMOyvj6ffQsZ9_j4oM2u7Yi kxxYktRla7mKjb7do_Y
Chicago: big protest downtown right now. Peaceful at this time. https://wgntv.com/on-air/live-streaming-sc/I'd agree with you that this isn't right with one huge caveat. Were it not for the murderous criminal behavior of the Minneapolis PD ( who are also guilty of drawing first blood here) would any of this have happened? My suggestion is to point the finger of blame at the Minneapolis PD where it truly belongs. Video will more than amply back me up on this one. Rob
That cop was definitely in the wrong. And hopefully he will go to prison for it.
However, many of those you are politically in bed with, think nothing of rioting and looting.
Businesses will close up. Jobs will be lost. You think all of these businesses will rebuild? These scum are doing more harm to their communities than good.
I hate everyone equally. Trash is trash. I don’t care what color you are.
gimmethesimplelife
5-30-20, 5:28pm
That cop was definitely in the wrong. And hopefully he will go to prison for it.
However, many of those you are politically in bed with, think nothing of rioting and looting.
Businesses will close up. Jobs will be lost. You think all of these businesses will rebuild? These scum are doing more harm to their communities than good.
I hate everyone equally. Trash is trash. I don’t care what color you are.Thank You, Tradd. I have a great deal of respect for you for admitting that Chauvin and Co. were wrong.
Rioting and looting is not going to solve anything and the fallout from such will only add to the challenges these neighborhoods face after the dust clears. However, I do understand and sympathize with the righteous and just anger behind the rioting and looting. America has (expletive) on these people far too often and far too long. But yeah, they ARE shooting themselves in the foot. That much is true, too. Rob
Just saw on the news a MSP post office was torched last night.
Rob, if something was CLEARLY wrong, I have no problem admitting that.
They're shooting themselves in the foot? The "reverends" and the "community organizers" will eventually be belly aching that jobs are gone, that there are no convenient stores for "people of color" to shop at, yada yada yada. Absolutely at no time will they admit that they did this to themselves. They'll blame it all on whitey. Just like they refuse to admit that more blacks are killed by other blacks in the hood, than by white cops.
This guy sure isn't acting like a protester. They way he came fully prepared including an umbrella to block security cameras from getting any video of his face, calmly walks up and breaks the windows, and calmly walks away is not normal behavior of someone protesting and looting. Not to mention the fact that he's white.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIfL59aLGPo
Not to mention the fact that he's white. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIfL59aLGPo
MANY white people have been filmed and put out there on social media. The question is (besides the obvious WTH are you doing this), are they supporting the non-caucasian majority of our country or are they attempting to further defame them?
frugal-one
5-30-20, 6:56pm
That cop was definitely in the wrong. And hopefully he will go to prison for it.
However, many of those you are politically in bed with, think nothing of rioting and looting.
Businesses will close up. Jobs will be lost. You think all of these businesses will rebuild? These scum are doing more harm to their communities than good.
I hate everyone equally. Trash is trash. I don’t care what color you are.
Watched Amy Klobuchar from Minnesota saying 80% of destruction is being done by people outside of the area. There will be a report of those arrested to determine what is going on. All the rioting and looting is not being done by the people of the area. They are the ones out trying to clean the mess up. trump said those outside the White House should be met by MAGA supporters. He is looking to incite more violence. Can't wait for him to be done. It can't be too soon. If he were decent he would try to bring the country together not tear it apart.
frugal-one
5-30-20, 6:58pm
Good point, a well armed populace promotes peace.
They had no business being there. They should have been brought down IMO. However, no one wants or wanted bloodshed. Another example of whack jobs.
Trump is looking to incite more violence. Can't wait for him to be done. It can't be too soon. If he were decent he would try to bring the country together not tear it apart.
I'm afraid you ain't seen nothing yet. Just wait and see what he does when he loses the election in November.
I'm afraid you ain't seen nothing yet. Just wait and see what he does when he loses the election in November.
What will he do? Launch a coup?
They had no business being there. They should have been brought down IMO.
For what? Peacefully protesting while armed?
What will he do? Launch a coup?
That certainly wouldn’t be outside his style. But no, I don’t think that’s the tactic he will take. More likely he’ll ratchet up the ‘rigged election’ BS to maximum volume in an attempt to metaphorically burn the country down on his way out.
That certainly wouldn’t be outside his style. But no, I don’t think that’s the tactic he will take. More likely he’ll ratchet up the ‘rigged election’ BS to maximum volume in an attempt to metaphorically burn the country down on his way out.
Hope it doesn't burn down this weekend.
This guy sure isn't acting like a protester. They way he came fully prepared including an umbrella to block security cameras from getting any video of his face, calmly walks up and breaks the windows, and calmly walks away is not normal behavior of someone protesting and looting. Not to mention the fact that he's white.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIfL59aLGPo
From the video I've seen these past few years of Antifa's neighborhood block parties they seem to be predominately white, and the umbrella became a universal sign of resistance to government in Hong Kong several years ago, though its symbolism may not be widely known locally. https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-hong-kong-protesters-umbrellas/
Plus as an aside in the movie "The Kingsman - The Secret Service" the umbrella makes a pretty formidable weapon. ;)
That certainly wouldn’t be outside his style. But no, I don’t think that’s the tactic he will take. More likely he’ll ratchet up the ‘rigged election’ BS to maximum volume in an attempt to metaphorically burn the country down on his way out.
A sort of National level Stacy Abrams strategy?
Wow. You miss a day around here, you miss a lot! ;)
First, Rob, thank you. I was a little raw when I wrote what I did, but I stand by it. While Floyd's death is not unique, the solution for us lies in Minneapolis and in Minnesota. People coming from outside just to agitate do not understand the history or the people involved and only remove the focus from the work that should be done.
Tradd: The MSP burned businesses I've seen detailed were a Target store, pharmacy (Walgreens, I think), auto parts store. In MSP, a brand new apartment building (think it might have been still under construction) was burned.
Here's a list of the buildings (https://www.startribune.com/these-minneapolis-st-paul-buildings-are-damaged-looted-after-george-floyd-protests/569930671/) in Minneapolis and Saint Paul which have been vandalized and/or looted and damaged (so far). Two Targets, several pharmacies (including the local one for our Rx plan, burned to the ground), several auto parts stores, auto service places, many restaurants; you name it. The list includes only a few large downtown buildings vandalized "lightly" while protests occurred there. The apartment building was, indeed, under construction, and would have had 68 units of affordable housing.
JaneV2.0: I think it was the auto parts store that was targeted by the gas-masked guy with a hammer. There are rumors he is a police officer, due to the type of mask.
I saw the social media post that made the allegation. The Saint Paul PD says the guy named is an officer of theirs but not involved. Personally, I don't see how you can make a conclusive ID of someone wearing a gas mask, and, as someone pointed out, the mask is not uniquely issued to police departments. The vandal is, however, white and obviously was prepared to do his work.
ToomuchStuff: I have not seen a list of the complete places that have been damaged or destroyed, and am not sure the rioters are done being destructive a holes.
List is linked above and no, they are not.
I'm guessing tonight will be another long night here. My hunch is that the interlopers may hit Saint Paul tonight since Minneapolis has seen the brunt of the damage so far and Saint Paul was quiet last night; that might catch a few hundred LEOs off-guard if they're amassing in Minneapolis. Almost every highway that crosses the Twin Cities is now closed for the night. We'll see what happens.
frugal-one: My son left his home today in Minneapolis.
frugal-one, I hope things hold together for him whenever he can return. The video I've seen of the area is all the more disturbing for being familiar with the area.
gimmethesimplelife: Were it not for the murderous criminal behavior of the Minneapolis PD ( who are also guilty of drawing first blood here) would any of this have happened? My suggestion is to point the finger of blame at the Minneapolis PD where it truly belongs.
First, while Minnesota in general and the MPD specifically does not have a great track record where racism is concerned, I can't paint the entire force with that broad a brush.
I think Bob Kroll, the guy who runs the police union for MPD, is a dingy white stain of a human being and poorly suited to a job that is supposed to serve all of the public. I am hopeful that Minneapolis decertifies the union and has another group represent their officers. Former-officer Chauvin apparently has had more than his share of issues, too, both on the job and at the club at which he moonlighted to provide security. He should have been run off the force years ago; he's toxic. This also is not the first time MPD has been involved in a fatal shooting of an African-American.
But I believe rushing to judgement on the entire force is premature. As I see with many of the looters and vandals, things people would not think of doing on their own seem to become better ideas when people around them are doing them. That doesn't excuse anyone from the consequences. But I don't think every officer on MPD is dirty and troubled like Chauvin. Get rid of Kroll, insist that MPD cops live in Minneapolis, and actively manage the force and I think results would be substantially different and better.
Tradd: These scum are doing more harm to their communities than good.
Absolutely. If it were African-Americans wanting to stick it to the system, they found an incredibly poor way to do it. The looting and vandalism have destroyed pretty much every food store (including the Targets and convenience stores) within walking distance of a mile or two. In both cities, they took out Target stores which, aside from some dollar stores and several national-chain pharmacies (which were damaged as well), were the only places within walking distance to purchase general merchandise at anything approaching non-boutique prices (no department stores, no Walmarts anywhere nearby, and only one Kmart miles further away).
Because of the pandemic, bus service has been curtailed severely to avoid wasting money on largely-empty buses. So some local folks, particularly the car-less and those who are handicapped, will have a hard time getting someplace to buy food and sundries, likely for months. Never mind the bank and post office branches which were destroyed, etc. These are poor neighborhoods; they absolutely did not need this. It is hard to believe African-Americans were doing this to make a point. The first night? Yeah, maybe unbridled rage got out of hand. But three nights in a row? Taking out libraries and bookstores? Radio studios? No, not buying that. Those vandals are not from around here.
Those vandals are not from around here.Maybe, but it only takes a few people to activate a mob. I doubt many people travelled from out of town to stock up on TV's and Huggies.
frugal-one
5-30-20, 9:35pm
For what? Peacefully protesting while armed?
They broke into the building. They had no business being there.
They broke into the building. They had no business being there.I'm not sure which building you're talking about. Was it the Statehouse?
frugal-one
5-30-20, 9:52pm
Maybe, but it only takes a few people to activate a mob. I doubt many people travelled from out of town to stock up on TV's and Huggies.
My son just called. He just got to his in-laws. He was meeting with members of his community and community leaders that was why it took so long to contact us. They were discussing what they could do to deter further destruction. He said they were told to remove anything in yards or areas that could be thrown (rocks, garbage cans, etc) and various other things. I am thankful he is gone and safe.
Also, today Madison,WI had a peaceful demonstration of about 1,000 people. As it was breaking up a group of white men (about 50) wearing swastikas and black shirts saying Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini are our heroes stormed down State Street throwing rocks and breaking windows of businesses. The college kids in the area followed suit and destroyed more. The cops came in force with tear gas and dressed in riot gear. There were very few blacks in sight. It sounds like this is what is happening across the country????? It is not the people of color causing destruction in many cases. It appears this is a planned attempt to raise havoc with our nation and cause dissension.
frugal-one
5-30-20, 9:55pm
I'm not sure which building you're talking about. Was it the Statehouse?
Actually we are talking about different instances. I was referring to the shutdown... not just recently.
The Neiman Marcus on Michigan Ave and the landmark old Marshall Field's store (now Macy's) and Walgreens on State Street have been looted. Chicago PD has been using tear gas. There is now a curfew from 9 pm to 6am.
I'm sure Antifa is in town. They've been an issue at protests for year or two now. White libs.
Unfortunately the "you loot, we shoot" policy is no longer used. Either that, or some of the good old hickory shampoo the Chicago PD used on the hippies during the Democratic National Convention in 1968 needs to come out. The scum need a massive beat down.
Well, this is interesting. From Reuters about the Biden campaign staff.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-minneapolis-police-biden-bail-idUSKBN2360SZ
iris lilies
5-30-20, 10:22pm
The Neiman Marcus on Michigan Ave and the landmark old Marshall Field's store (now Macy's) and Walgreens on State Street have been looted. Chicago PD has been using tear gas. There is now a curfew from 9 pm to 6am.
I'm sure Antifa is in town. They've been an issue at protests for year or two now. White libs.
Unfortunately the "you loot, we shoot" policy is no longer used. Either that, or some of the good old hickory shampoo the Chicago PD used on the hippies during the Democratic National Convention in 1968 needs to come out. The scum need a massive beat down.
Riot management in Ferguson called for allowing property to burn. That was seen as saving lives. And it is true that no lives were lost in Ferguson rioting at least in altercations between law-enforcement and protesters. Protestors shot up each other but that’s typical for that crowd.
My son just called. He just got to his in-laws. He was meeting with members of his community and community leaders that was why it took so long to contact us. They were discussing what they could do to deter further destruction. He said they were told to remove anything in yards or areas that could be thrown (rocks, garbage cans, etc) and various other things. I am thankful he is gone and safe.
Also, today Madison,WI had a peaceful demonstration of about 1,000 people. As it was breaking up a group of white men (about 50) wearing swastikas and black shirts saying Hitler, Stalin and Mussolini are our heroes stormed down State Street throwing rocks and breaking windows of businesses. The college kids in the area followed suit and destroyed more. The cops came in force with tear gas and dressed in riot gear. There were very few blacks in sight. It sounds like this is what is happening across the country????? It is not the people of color causing destruction in many cases. It appears this is a planned attempt to raise havoc with our nation and cause dissension.
What’s your source for the Mussolini t-shirt story?
This was kind of neat. MN NG using a Blackhawk to get water out of an area lake to put out fires. Apparently they used this already to put out a car fire.
https://twitter.com/JKealing/status/1266915301096075265
What’s your source for the Mussolini t-shirt story?I've just read several newspaper accounts of the protest without any mention of swastikas or historical Socialists/Fascists. https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/update-peaceful-protest-in-madison-turns-violent-in-wake-of-police-death-of-george-floyd/article_82a91655-421a-5c36-bd35-4f5c3e033ba1.html and https://www.nbc15.com/content/news/Protest-570893591.html
A sort of National level Stacy Abrams strategy?
I suppose if you squint really hard, turn your head way to the side, and then apply a mainstream media level amount of "both sides-erism" you could make the case that there's some slight, vague level of similarity. But we should probably wait until thanksgiving dinner before we have this conversation. As much as republicans like to pretend reality doesn't matter, and have even pathetically opined about that sad opinion to the press, I suspect it will in fact matter in this case.
If I'm wrong about what's going to happen when that evil shithead loses I'll be quite happy to admit it because I really don't want to see the crap that seems quite likely to happen. And if I'm right I hope it's the end of the republican party as we know it because they've been enabling this ugly dirtbag of a human being for far too long. They had their chance to fix things but only one of them had the morals and courage to do the right thing.
I suppose if you squint really hard, turn your head way to the side, and then apply a mainstream media level amount of "both sides-erism" you could make the case that there's some slight, vague level of similarity.
It occurs to me that there are two factors in play here, #1 is scale, Stacy Abrams did exactly what you predict Trump will do, only on a state level rather than federal. #2 is the fact that one actually took place, the other has not. Maybe that's where the squinting and vagueness are necessary.
It occurs to me that there are two factors in play here, #1 is scale, Stacy Abrams did exactly what you predict Trump will do, only on a state level rather than federal. #2 is the fact that one actually took place, the other has not. Maybe that's where the squinting and vagueness come into play.
I guess I missed the part where Stacy called for violence. Trump has already done so. And will undoubtedly do so again in November. I fear that your post won’t age well. But again I hope I’m wrong.
I guess I missed the part where Stacy called for violence. Trump has already done so. And will undoubtedly do so again in November. I fear that your post won’t age well. But again I hope I’m wrong.Ahh, you didn't mention that, at least in this thread. The comparison to Stacy Abrams came as a response to this post:
That certainly wouldn’t be outside his style. But no, I don’t think that’s the tactic he will take. More likely he’ll ratchet up the ‘rigged election’ BS to maximum volume in an attempt to metaphorically burn the country down on his way out.
I was responding to ldahl’s comparison/ false equivalence of stacy’s reaction to her election results to the likely results for trump in November.
Teacher Terry
5-31-20, 12:02am
We were downtown and had to leave a restaurant quickly because of a protest and fire. We have a very small black community.
We were downtown and had to leave a restaurant quickly because of a protest and fire. We have a very small black community.
Hopefully the protest didn’t include cops running over people with their cars like happened in Brooklyn today and like the trump fanboy did a couple of years ago.
Teacher Terry
5-31-20, 12:20am
I unfortunately have no clue.
Unfortunately the "you loot, we shoot" policy is no longer used.
So you don’t believe in the rule of law and trials to determine innocence or guilt. Got it. Glad that you’ve clarified that yet another supposed republican position (like fiscal responsibility) is just a stupid effing lie.
I think Trump will leave peacefully and start his own TV network. That's why he ran in the first place. He never expected to win.
I was responding to ldahl’s comparison/ false equivalence of stacy’s reaction to her election results to the likely results for trump in November.
Abrams claimed she was robbed. I think Trump will probably do the same if he loses. As far as metaphorical conflagrations are concerned, that will be in the squinting eye of the beholder.
Maybe, but it only takes a few people to activate a mob. I doubt many people travelled from out of town to stock up on TV's and Huggies.
Mob mentality is an important element in all of this: the burning, the looting, unequal levels of police brutality among people who are arrested, the overzealous use last night of pepper spray and less-lethal on the press and on people sitting on their own porches,...
Last night was almost quiet in our neighborhood. Residents here were, like frugal-one's son, advised to hide trash bins which could be used as fire bowls, to keep garden hoses connected and ready to use, to keep lights on, etc. Lots of helicopter flight time for both the police and TV stations. A few people sped down our residential streets in cars with no license plates. When they were pulled over, apparently, the occupants bolted, leaving behind fire starters and accelerants in their vehicles. Residential neighborhoods in Minneapolis saw poorly-formed bands of people roaming around (after curfew) and moved most of them on with displays of their own massed presence. There really were not many places for people to congregate without facing a sizable police/National Guard presence.
I'm curious to see what happens tonight. No curfew has been declared (yet). I find it hard to believe so many people just vanished into the woodwork and won't be back.
iris lilies
5-31-20, 11:08am
So last night they burned Ferguson Missouri. Again. I guess it was so effective last time in affecting change.
The local race baiting rag, the St. Louis Post Dispatch, had a lovely picture of the fire storm in Ferguson on their front page this morning. Good for them, maybe they’ll get a Pulitzer for visual coverage of Ferguson rioting. Again.
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frugal-one
5-31-20, 11:15am
Well, this is interesting. From Reuters about the Biden campaign staff.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-minneapolis-police-biden-bail-idUSKBN2360SZ
Doesn't the District Attorney determine the severity of the crime and bail amount?
frugal-one
5-31-20, 11:20am
What’s your source for the Mussolini t-shirt story?
dh SAW the guys on the local tv news wearing said t-shirts!
I predict lots of race war advocates, white nationalists, anarchists, and other out of town troublemakers will be arrested. Some already have been.
The police attacked at least one peaceful demonstration that included a journalist and camera crew last night on video. Mob mentalities don't seem to favor one side.
So you don’t believe in the rule of law and trials to determine innocence or guilt. Got it. Glad that you’ve clarified that yet another supposed republican position (like fiscal responsibility) is just a stupid effing lie.
Not when people are caught red handed in the act.
I know people who live in Minneapolis who are locked and loaded to protect their homes. You can be damn sure that if the scum start hitting residential areas at least some will be shot.
Doesn't the District Attorney determine the severity of the crime and bail amount?
The group being donated to pays the bail after its been set. I’ve seen a number of lib celebrities on Twitter donating to pay the bail of arrested “protestors.” The quotes are mine.
Chicago has essentially blocked off downtown. Access is only allowed for those who live/work in the area or have essential business. Only the Lake Shore Drive and Columbus Street bridges across the Chicago River are down. All the other bridges are still up. Public transit service is suspended downtown. I’m guessing the freeway exits to downtown are still blocked. Curfew from 9pm to 6am in effect until further notice.
https://wgntv.com/news/chicago-news/city-announces-new-precautionary-measures-for-sunday-cta-suspends-service-to-downtown/
Not when people are caught red handed in the act.
So the penalty now for stealing a tv is death? I don't recall reading about any legislatures making that change. Or any of them getting rid of due process. Please correct me if I missed it.
dh SAW the guys on the local tv news wearing said t-shirts!
You put me in mind of an old joke about our Midwestern Berkeley wannabe. “There was a race riot in Madison, and a few black people came to watch”.
Teacher Terry
5-31-20, 12:05pm
From what I read the rioters came after the protestors left. They broke into city hall and set a fire. We had a 8 pm curfew which is why the restaurant had to close. They were pepper sprayed numerous times. Our black population is only 3%.
These people are trash and need to be treated accordingly. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Hopefully take their genes out of the pool before their stupidity has reproduced. I hate all people equally. If you can’t behave sensibly and not illegally, all bets are off as far as I’m concerned.
I don’t care what their “reasons” are for rioting. Seems to be combined some blacks and Antifa. Some suburban white chick in New York was arrested for trying to throw a Molotov cocktail into a NYPD vehicle with four cops inside. She’s been charged with 4 counts of attempted murder, among other charges.
Scum is gonna scum. You’re in bed politically with people who are very close to saying that rioting, looting, and arson are approved activities because of whatever reason.
From what I read the rioters came after the protestors left. They broke into city hall and set a fire. We had a 8 pm curfew which is why the restaurant had to close. They were pepper sprayed numerous times. Our black population is only 3%.
There was stuff going on in Fargo, ND. Fargo is the last place I’d think this kind of stuff would happen.
I haven't seen any indication that Antifa has anything to do with this, but i know it's a popular right-wing whipping boy. More likely the Proud Boys or their equivalent.
Teacher Terry
5-31-20, 1:29pm
In many states you can’t shoot someone until they are in your house. No guns or violence for us.
These people are trash and need to be treated accordingly. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Hopefully take their genes out of the pool before their stupidity has reproduced. I hate all people equally. If you can’t behave sensibly and not illegally, all bets are off as far as I’m concerned.
I don’t care what their “reasons” are for rioting. Seems to be combined some blacks and Antifa. Some suburban white chick in New York was arrested for trying to throw a Molotov cocktail into a NYPD vehicle with four cops inside. She’s been charged with 4 counts of attempted murder, among other charges.
Scum is gonna scum. You’re in bed politically with people who are very close to saying that rioting, looting, and arson are approved activities because of whatever reason.
I am certainly glad you are not a cop. And I hope that few cops have similar opinions.
frugal-one
5-31-20, 1:38pm
The group being donated to pays the bail after its been set. I’ve seen a number of lib celebrities on Twitter donating to pay the bail of arrested “protestors.” The quotes are mine.
Isn't the amount of bail based on the severity of the crime? The article you mentioned spoke of people unable to pay even a small bail (not a severe crime) would be equating the jail to debtor's prison because they would not even be able to post bail.
frugal-one
5-31-20, 1:40pm
You put me in mind of an old joke about our Midwestern Berkeley wannabe. “There was a race riot in Madison, and a few black people came to watch”.
Believe what you want. There were not that many black people on the streets for the destruction. I watched it live and you are speaking through your...... As in TT case, the riot started after the peaceful demonstration was over.
frugal-one
5-31-20, 1:45pm
I haven't seen any indication that Antifa has anything to do with this, but i know it's a popular right-wing whipping boy. More likely the Proud Boys or their equivalent.
According to my son in Minneapolis, the white supremists were putting burning dumpsters in the streets and causing the damage.
And cops be all ‘I’m gonna run you over just because I can’ or shoot you on your porch.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/05/george-floyd-protests-police-violence.html
gimmethesimplelife
5-31-20, 1:54pm
There was stuff going on in Fargo, ND. Fargo is the last place I’d think this kind of stuff would happen.OMG! OMG! OMG! I have a friend that lives in Grand Forks, ND, from my days working in Asst Management at the Morth Rim of the Grand Canyon. She sent me video the protests in Fargo and I couldn't believe this was in North Dakota. Silver lining, though - more and more Americans are waking up to the truth of America and it's police. I do believe there will be long deserved consequences for both America and it's police going forward. I just wish for less destruction/injury/loss of life as consequences are eventually doled out - but is this realistic, given the truth of America? Methinks not.
Stay safe everyone....things are finally getting irrevocably real. Rob
There's a significant percentage of brutal officers that for some reason aren't winnowed out in the hiring process--but that wouldn't be so bad if they were summarily dismissed when their actions betrayed them, and they usually aren't. Chauvin was said to have 18 citizen complaints on file. I'm a big proponent of unions, but not when they protect the guilty, as police unions often do.
I think the case that upsets me most is the Breonna Taylor case where police broke into her house while conducting a misguided and totally unnecessary raid, shot up the place and killed her--an EMT and aspiring nursing student--and wounded her partner. They had no idea the thugs invading their apartment weren't home invaders. But I guess they were, after all.
From what I read the rioters came after the protestors left. They broke into city hall and set a fire. We had a 8 pm curfew which is why the restaurant had to close. They were pepper sprayed numerous times. Our black population is only 3%.
Believe what you want. There were not that many black people on the streets for the destruction. I watched it live and you are speaking through your...... As in TT case, the riot started after the peaceful demonstration was over.
I can well believe it. Madison is what, maybe 80% white? And with the State’s highest concentration of social justice enthusiasts and inebriated young people, most of the civil unrest there tends to be on the youngish pale side.
Lord knows we don't need no social justice 'round here!
Teacher Terry
5-31-20, 3:34pm
Many of the destroyed businesses will never open again. Many are owned by black people.
Many police nationwide are working overtime to prove that they're as awful as the protestors claim.
https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/31/21276044/police-violence-protest-george-floyd
iris lilies
5-31-20, 7:16pm
And cops be all ‘I’m gonna run you over just because I can’ or shoot you on your porch.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/05/george-floyd-protests-police-violence.html
The shooter of porch residents are riling up the 2nd
amendment peeps.
This is pretty much what the Second Amendment is all about—-government goons marching down your street shooting at you.
happystuff
5-31-20, 7:17pm
It's just all so, so sad.
The shooter of porch residents are riling up the 2nd
amendment peeps.
This is pretty much what the Second Amendment is all about—-government goons marching down your street shooting at you.
Maybe the second amendment peeps have a point. I don't recall the police acting so callously a few weeks ago in Michigan when the protestors were mostly heavily armed.
Many police nationwide are working overtime to prove that they're as awful as the protestors claim.
https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/31/21276044/police-violence-protest-george-floyd
I suppose they could sit home and watch cities burn.
I suppose they could sit home and watch cities burn.
Or they could show some empathy for the protestors pain and potentially deescalate the situation.
https://cbs12.com/news/local/police-take-a-knee-in-solidarity-prayer-with-protesters-in-coral-gables
At the protest in san diego right now, peaceful so far, the protestors are trying to get the police there to kneel. Whether they do or not will probably determine the course of the rest of the evening.
The Oregonian:
"Outside the Justice Center on Sunday afternoon, members of the Portland Police Bureau took a knee in a show of solidarity with Black Lives Matter protesters." Video courtesy of Ryan Ao // AO Productions
gimmethesimplelife
5-31-20, 8:10pm
Arizona is now on a one week lockdown from 8 PM to 5 AM. Rumours of riots in downtown Phoenix and Tucson tonight have been spreading through my neighnorhood. This is not going to end well for anyone but attorneys. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
5-31-20, 8:11pm
And I misquoted - it's a one week CURFEW, not a lockdown. My bad. Sorry. Rob
San Francisco and various other CA cities are as well. The outsiders ran around after the protests were over last night and set things on fire. Hopefully the goal is to be able to sweep up all these ne’er do wells and find out who they are, where they came from, and what their goals are.
Our protest in the Village today. Note all of the looting and violence.
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Lord knows we don't need no social justice 'round here!
Oh I think they mean well. I think they believe that shouting in the street and occasionally blocking traffic will make us better people. As long as they leave off the violence and arson, I see them as just another attraction in the big sideshow.
As to the outside agitators thing, if all the violence in all the cities is being perpetrated by people from elsewhere, where is elsewhere exactly? Are provocateurs simply circulating around so nobody trashes their own home town?
As to the outside agitators thing, if all the violence in all the cities is being perpetrated by people from elsewhere, where is elsewhere exactly? Are provocateurs simply circulating around so nobody trashes their own home town?I've wondered about that as well. The outside hooligan theory only makes sense if say the New York chapter of 'Evil White Racist Inc.' (™) is making mischief in Atlanta while the Atlanta chapter is busy in Chicago.
I've wondered about that as well. The outside hooligan theory only makes sense if say the New York chapter of 'Evil White Racist Inc.' is making mischief in Atlanta while the Atlanta chapter is busy in Chicago.
I think "lone basement dweller radicalized by the Internet" makes more sense. I don't think we see vans of out-of-state agitators so much, at least here in Seattle.
In Seattle, people traveled to the protests from all over the state, presumably those folks might be considered "outside hooligans" if they stepped out of line, even if they had only come over from Bellevue.
Oh I think they mean well. I think they believe that shouting in the street and occasionally blocking traffic will make us better people. As long as they leave off the violence and arson, I see them as just another attraction in the big sideshow.
As someone who belongs to a minority whose effort at obtaining civil rights got a major boost after a few days or protesting and rioting (and setting a few things on fire) 51 years ago I tend to take a different view. It's been years since anyone (at least anyone whose opinions have any level of mainstream acceptance today) has called the Stonewall protestors thugs or hooligans (or whatever was the fashionable term back in the 70's and 80's and 90's). And in fact, every year, on the anniversary of those riots, in cities across the country and around the world we celebrate those riots and what they accomplished with big parades. My biggest hope is that it doesn't take the current rioters 51 years to achieve their goal.
gimmethesimplelife
5-31-20, 10:20pm
As someone who belongs to a minority whose effort at obtaining civil rights got a major boost after a few days or protesting and rioting (and setting a few things on fire) 51 years ago I tend to take a different view. It's been years since anyone (at least anyone whose opinions have any level of mainstream acceptance today) has called the Stonewall protestors thugs or hooligans (or whatever was the fashionable term back in the 70's and 80's and 90's). And in fact, every year, on the anniversary of those riots, in cities across the country and around the world we celebrate those riots and what they accomplished with big parades. My biggest hope is that it doesn't take the current rioters 51 years to achieve their goal.Beautiful take! Rob
ApatheticNoMore
5-31-20, 10:22pm
As for anyone who thought quarantine was hard, oh yea, I seem to remember things like TALKING A WALK being perfectly legal under quarantine (or any implemented in the U.S. anyway). Now I'm under curfew where that is illegal, as leaving one's house for any and all purposes is.
No I don't believe it will accomplish anything or anything positive anyway.
iris lilies
5-31-20, 10:43pm
As someone who belongs to a minority whose effort at obtaining civil rights got a major boost after a few days or protesting and rioting (and setting a few things on fire) 51 years ago I tend to take a different view. It's been years since anyone (at least anyone whose opinions have any level of mainstream acceptance today) has called the Stonewall protestors thugs or hooligans (or whatever was the fashionable term back in the 70's and 80's and 90's). And in fact, every year, on the anniversary of those riots, in cities across the country and around the world we celebrate those riots and what they accomplished with big parades. My biggest hope is that it doesn't take the current rioters 51 years to achieve their goal.But they’ve been already been rioting for racial justice for 50+ years.
But they’ve been already been rioting for racial justice for 50+ years.
All the more sad that they’ve failed to get people to care. Maybe this time enough shit will get burned down that they will succeed. Although I’m not holding my breath.
ToomuchStuff
6-1-20, 12:45am
I'm a big proponent of unions, but not when they protect the guilty, as police unions often do.
I think the case that upsets me most is the Breonna Taylor case where police broke into her house while conducting a misguided and totally unnecessary raid, shot up the place and killed her--an EMT and aspiring nursing student--and wounded her partner. They had no idea the thugs invading their apartment weren't home invaders. But I guess they were, after all.
The issue with Unions is they have to protect all their members. Innocent or guilty, or in one union I know, protect a member, whose goal it was, to be the worst person in the union. (not law enforcement)
Their job is very much like a lawyers.
The case you mention above, while that is one I am watching for information on (court takes time), I don't remember all the rioting and destruction in the street from it!
Saw this meme, and remembering the saying, the best humor, has an element of truth to it:
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ApatheticNoMore
6-1-20, 3:02am
so now there is plans for a protest (possibly a riot) where my bf lives, the area is apolitical, so apolitical it makes you bemoan how little they care about politics, so it would be the first political interest they have ever shown there. But the agitators aren't local to the area, it's not a wealthy area, it's not even middle class, but not the poorest of the poor either. It's probably at least half Hispanic, many of them illegal immigrants. So yea great choice. >8)
In Seattle, people traveled to the protests from all over the state, presumably those folks might be considered "outside hooligans" if they stepped out of line, even if they had only come over from Bellevue.
Admittedly, it's been several years, but as I visited Seattle often at that time, there seemed to me to be a pretty clear line drawn between Seattleites and people from Bellevue. ;)
The issue with Unions is they have to protect all their members. Innocent or guilty, or in one union I know, protect a member, whose goal it was, to be the worst person in the union. (not law enforcement)
Their job is very much like a lawyers.
The case you mention above, while that is one I am watching for information on (court takes time), I don't remember all the rioting and destruction in the street from it!
Saw this meme, and remembering the saying, the best humor, has an element of truth to it:
3243
I guess female victims don't count. Figures.
As for anyone who thought quarantine was hard, oh yea, I seem to remember things like TALKING A WALK being perfectly legal under quarantine (or any implemented in the U.S. anyway). Now I'm under curfew where that is illegal, as leaving one's house for any and all purposes is.
No I don't believe it will accomplish anything or anything positive anyway.
Is that a local ordinance? Because I know a lot of Angelenos are walking and hiking, as are people in Oregon, and around here every evening. Walking is the new exercise craze with a lot of people.
iris lilies
6-1-20, 11:03am
Is that a local ordinance? Because I know a lot of Angelenos are walking and hiking, as are people in Oregon, and around here every evening. Walking is the new exercise craze with a lot of people.
Many localities have put into place a curfew during these rioting times.
Many localities have put into place a curfew during these rioting times.
Ah--so for a few days, and at night. Gotcha.
What are you guys doing?Treat everyone as I'd like to be treated.
Push for police accountability. Better yet--push for agencies to seek out recruits with character. Elect officials with the same goal.
But they’ve been already been rioting for racial justice for 50+ years.
Thinking more about gay rioting I'm reminded of the second major gay riot that occurred on American soil, the White Night Riot in San Francisco in May of 1979. They didn't occur because Harvey Milk and George Moscone had been killed. At the time of their deaths there was just a peaceful vigil. On the night of the riot we damaged, and unsuccessfully attempted to set fire to, city hall and set a dozen police cars ablaze. The riot occurred after Dan White received an absurdly lenient sentence for the murders. If justice had been served there wouldn't have been a riot. There's really not much difference between the cause of the White Night Riot and the cause of the riots happening today, except that the rioters today have experienced not one injustice, but regular injustice, time after time after time.
Thinking more about gay rioting I'm reminded of the second major gay riot that occurred on American soil, the White Night Riot in San Francisco in May of 1979. They didn't occur because Harvey Milk and George Moscone had been killed. At the time of their deaths there was just a peaceful vigil. On the night of the riot we damaged, and unsuccessfully attempted to set fire to, city hall and set a dozen police cars ablaze. The riot occurred after Dan White received an absurdly lenient sentence for the murders. If justice had been served there wouldn't have been a riot. There's really not much difference between the cause of the White Night Riot and the cause of the riots happening today, except that the rioters today have experienced not one injustice, but regular injustice, time after time after time.
The "Twinkie defense." I remember.
Treat everyone as I'd like to be treated.
If everyone took that primitive attitude, think of the damage it would do. Whole political movements, bodies of law, corporate departments, government agencies, academic disciplines and industries would be destroyed. If we based our obligations to one another on one individual to another rather than the identities assigned to us by credentialed specialists, we wouldn’t be the enlightened society we are today.
If everyone took that primitive attitude, think of the damage it would do. Whole political movements, bodies of law, corporate departments, government agencies, academic disciplines and industries would be destroyed. If we based our obligations to one another on one individual to another rather than the identities assigned to us by credentialed specialists, we wouldn’t be the enlightened society we are today.
But unfortunately not everyone does. And as a result we now have a dead man and a whole lot of really angry people.
On the night of the riot we damaged, and unsuccessfully attempted to set fire to, city hall and set a dozen police cars ablaze. The riot occurred after Dan White received an absurdly lenient sentence for the murders. If justice had been served there wouldn't have been a riot.
I find this horrifying. That was a jury trial. So are you saying if a jury returns an unfair verdict it is okay to set fire to public buildings and property? Is it okay to go torch the jurors' houses--after all, they returned the verdict you didn't like. Is it okay to endanger their lives? Is it okay to take the lives of someone standing nearby when the police car explodes? Is this really what you mean to say?
All I'm saying is that when injustice happens people get angry. That's just part of the human condition. Anyone who doesn't understand that is doomed to see it happen again and again. One of the aftereffects of the White Night Riot is that California got rid of the "diminished capacity" law that had allowed White to get off with an absurdly light sentence.
The solution is not to vilify the rightfully angry rioters. Or to get all hand-wringy about property damage. The value of the damaged property pales in comparison to the lost lives. The solution is to make changes to society so that they have no reason to get angry again in the future.
The solution is to make changes to society so that they have no reason to get angry again in the future.So, the takeaway is don't piss JP off?
So, the takeaway is don't piss JP off?
If that's your takeaway I guess we'll continue to have riots from time to time as the more egregious wrongs continue to happen.
If that's your takeaway I guess we'll continue to have riots from time to time as the more egregious wrongs continue to happen.
Why, what have I done? I think it's perfectly reasonable to not condone rioting and violence as fervently as not condoning whatever sparked them.
I took a sociology class in college called Minority Groups. The professor pointed out that until a pedestrian or two are killed, nothing much is done about problematic intersections, no matter how much hue and cry they inspire. After the bodies start piling up, a stop sign or signal light is installed, and the problem goes away. In the same way, nothing much is done to ease legitimate minority tensions until the aggrieved crowd gets so fed up--another of their community is killed by police, say--they riot and burn a building or two. Then, a nervous establishment vows to make systemic changes. And sometimes they do.
All I'm saying is that when injustice happens people get angry. That's just part of the human condition. Anyone who doesn't understand that is doomed to see it happen again and again. One of the aftereffects of the White Night Riot is that California got rid of the "diminished capacity" law that had allowed White to get off with an absurdly light sentence.
The solution is not to vilify the rightfully angry rioters. Or to get all hand-wringy about property damage. The value of the damaged property pales in comparison to the lost lives. The solution is to make changes to society so that they have no reason to get angry again in the future.
B.S. Do damage to others that did nothing to you? I can see peaceful protest but this destroying property and now whole neighborhoods complete bullsh$t! That does nothing but cause terror and erode society.
ApatheticNoMore
6-1-20, 4:26pm
I see the record of it making political changes as far more half empty than all that, I mean I don't know if you could point to it doing so in 40 years and there have been protests and riots. I suppose this time could be different. Electoral politics not working out so well lately either? Well yea not in the last 40 years either.
And though it could happen the establishment no matter how blue has not vowed to make political changes, at all.
This country has a history of violent rebellion; that's how we got here.
As Martin Luther King Jr said "A riot is the language of the unheard."
At the end of the day we as a society have two choices. We can either continue to not listen and not make the systemic changes that will help solve the injustice faced by minorities in their dealings with police and continue to have riots from time to time, or we can actually listen, and work to fix the injustices and thus eliminate the reason that the riots keep occurring. Complaining that people shouldn't riot is not a particularly useful strategy. People whose loved ones are dying are not inclined to care what you think they should or shouldn't do in response to those deaths. They just want the deaths to stop and if a riot is the only way to get society's attention then that's what will happen.
ApatheticNoMore
6-1-20, 5:48pm
of course more people's loved one's are going to die because covid.
Originally Posted by Alan
Treat everyone as I'd like to be treated.
If everyone took that primitive attitude, think of the damage it would do. Whole political movements, bodies of law, corporate departments, government agencies, academic disciplines and industries would be destroyed. If we based our obligations to one another on one individual to another rather than the identities assigned to us by credentialed specialists, we wouldn’t be the enlightened society we are today.
That Alan. Such a subversive.
The solution is not to vilify the rightfully angry rioters. Or to get all hand-wringy about property damage. The value of the damaged property pales in comparison to the lost lives. The solution is to make changes to society so that they have no reason to get angry again in the future.
Well said.
I’ve donated to the ACLU and black lives matter this week. I’m too scared to join the protesters nonviolent marches. Both scared of covid and scared of the violent few joining us. I admit that. But I give money. I do what I can.
I’ve got a 6 year old biracial grandson. His life matters.
ApatheticNoMore
6-1-20, 9:25pm
I’m too scared to join the protesters nonviolent marches. Both scared of covid and scared of the violent few joining us. I admit that.
Yea well, I'm not so sanguine about it for the rest of us either. But I really don't even think you going out risking covid would be the right thing to do, given your work with vulnerable patients, I guess you could test constantly*
* which is more than most non-medical people can even do now given publicly available covid testing ITSELF has been shut down some because of this :0!
ApatheticNoMore
6-1-20, 9:46pm
So a doctor's office gets broken into I find out, people going over to help clean up. Boyfriend and his mom might have to come over here because of looting, I'm not social distancing from bf, but both him and me are social distancing from his elderly mom (as I am from my mom).
My brother noted the dollar amount of property damage is miniscule compared to the amount of the Wall Street bailout, and that we have no problem addressing the concerns of the rich people in this country without worrying about the price tag.
Can’t make an omelet without breaking eggs?
Especially if the eggs are someone else’s property, home or livelihood?
Murder is bad. Arson is bad. Pillage is bad. They are crimes committed by individuals, not collective identities, and individuals should be held accountable for them.
It is odd to me that posters here seem to find it okay to have mob rule, so long as it is for a good cause. In this scenario, it's called being "hand wringey" to object to violence towards the community--so the logical inference is that if protestors decide to break into your building and go up the elevator and enter your condo as a show of solidarity with those you perceive as victims of the system, and proceed to destroy your home and subject you to personal danger, or blow up a car as you are walking to work and you die as collateral damage, or your child loses a limb or is blinded--that's okay under this scenario because the cause is just?
And if you think the kind of people who think it is okay to destroy someone's car or steal someone's liquor or steal a doctor's prescription pad are not going to decide it's okay to steal someone's loved one and subject them to sexual assault or murder the fat old man who sits in their way of taking his liquor and his home--why are you ignoring the whole of human history?
iris lilies
6-2-20, 8:22am
It is odd to me that posters here seem to find it okay to have mob rule, so long as it is for a good cause. In this scenario, it's called being "hand wringey" to object to violence towards the community--so the logical inference is that if protestors decide to break into your building and go up the elevator and enter your condo as a show of solidarity with those you perceive as victims of the system, and proceed to destroy your home and subject you to personal danger, or blow up a car as you are walking to work and you die as collateral damage, or your child loses a limb or is blinded--that's okay under this scenario because the cause is just?
And if you think the kind of people who think it is okay to destroy someone's car or steal someone's liquor or steal a doctor's prescription pad are not going to decide it's okay to steal someone's loved one and subject them to sexual assault or murder the fat old man who sits in their way of taking his liquor and his home--why are you ignoring the whole of human history?
And sometimes the collateral damage includes a fire in a building with children. That’s just a sad byproduct of The Struggle, I guess. Blocking fire equipment from getting there seems extreme, but what do I know about accomplishing liberation.
https://www.nbc12.com/2020/05/31/its-unacceptable-richmond-police-chief-gets-emotional-while-talking-about-protests/
All of that said, there is something to be said for the Ferguson law enforcement reaction which was to let buildings burn and keep personal conflict between cops and protesters to a minimum. While there was plenty of violence, no one died and they are content with that outcome.
Here's a history lesson from another time that many of us remember, when the SLA was out fighting for justice for the oppressed, and taking on the establishment:
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/guerrilla-myrna-opsahl/
The people who killed her were romanticized, too. At the time, she was considered part of the "establishment" and her death was acceptable collateral damage to some.
None of it is good. But 200 years of racism and hate crimes makes people a little frustrated.
iris lilies
6-2-20, 9:34am
Last night in St. Louis four police officers were shot in the rioting after protests. Gasoline was poured on policeman. That could’ve gone incredibly wrong. And oh yeah this is where it gets personal—they set Campbell House property on fire. Campbell house is in my will. They can fk right off with that.
iris lilies
6-2-20, 9:38am
None of it is good. But 200 years of racism and hate crimes makes people a little frustrated.
You will be happy to know that our mayor is passing out masks for Covid19 protection to the protestors/rioters. Must keep them safe.
ApatheticNoMore
6-2-20, 9:42am
The actual motives of looters (not the protestors who are in it for obvious reasons - you could even say breaking windows makes a point, but taking stuff loses the point, as then people start to suspect petty self-interest), I have to figure some of it is economic desperation, as we're in a depression and every other developed country has given people more economic help than this one, gave people UBIs, suspended bills and rents etc.. People are in and are going to continue to be in a world of economic pain because this country has refused to do what every other developed country has and helped people out. And some of it maybe boredom, bars closed, nightclubs closed, schools closed, nothing to amuse the young and the restless.
I think that's good, to pass out masks. Protesters and rioters are not the same people. And the mayor is trying to protect the populace.
At least one, gas-masked hammer-carrying white provocateur has been videoed walking up to a window, smashing it, and walking swiftly away as a black woman challenges him. He's been identified as a a police officer by his ex, though the department refutes that. I'm sure some of the looters are opportunists, but there's more to it than meets the eye, clearly.
In Cincinnati a police officer was shot in the head during a peaceful protest. Luckily he was wearing a helmet and survived.
A restaurateur named McAtee was killed in Louisville just standing around handing out food. I guess he should have worn a helmet:
A police chief has been fired and two officers are on administrative leave after a barbecue business owner in the West End of Louisville, Kentucky, was shot dead by law enforcement trying to enforce curfew amid protests over a previous police shooting, officials said.
David McAtee, who owned YaYa's BBQ, was shot and killed early Monday morning in the parking lot of Dino's Food Mart on 26th and Broadway, where he normally set up his stand. (ABC)
frugal-one
6-2-20, 12:29pm
Well said.
I’ve donated to the ACLU and black lives matter this week. I’m too scared to join the protesters nonviolent marches. Both scared of covid and scared of the violent few joining us. I admit that. But I give money. I do what I can.
I’ve got a 6 year old biracial grandson. His life matters.
How would you feel if your neighborhood was destroyed? I am hand-wringy about property damage. In many cases, these are small owned businesses that people worked HARD to get. Some of the neighborhoods being destroyed will take years to rebuild. I think it is disgusting!
frugal-one
6-2-20, 12:33pm
Can’t make an omelet without breaking eggs?
Especially if the eggs are someone else’s property, home or livelihood?
Murder is bad. Arson is bad. Pillage is bad. They are crimes committed by individuals, not collective identities, and individuals should be held accountable for them.
How do you know they are not committed by collective identities? Many times the damage is done after the peaceful protesting. There are people coming in with backpacks filled with rocks, etc and leaving gas filled water bottles around the neighborhood to pick up and throw later. I have talked to people who are picking these up from their neighborhood. This sounds to me like a planned assault by a collective group.
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/twitter-takes-down-washington-protest-disinformation-bot-behavior-n1221456?fbclid=IwAR07PGQwU_ToTGv83smx5jiOiewb4GeZ WBCYSOXnVkV4FBAKLfPApqTXHkE
Read this news story.
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/twitter-takes-down-washington-protest-disinformation-bot-behavior-n1221456?fbclid=IwAR07PGQwU_ToTGv83smx5jiOiewb4GeZ WBCYSOXnVkV4FBAKLfPApqTXHkE
Read this news story.
Just out of curiosity, how did Twitter link a newly created account to white nationalists? The story didn't say and it seems to me that in the absence of someone identifying themselves in their profile or sharing an IP or email address with someone who had, the claim would be hard to verify.
I'm not implying that the story lacks credibility but learned long ago to question accusations read on the internet.
https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/twitter-takes-down-washington-protest-disinformation-bot-behavior-n1221456?fbclid=IwAR07PGQwU_ToTGv83smx5jiOiewb4GeZ WBCYSOXnVkV4FBAKLfPApqTXHkE
Read this news story.
That's my take on brutal and dishonest bad actors on the right. I'm kind of surprised it's even being reported.
I guess these are the "Profas." They're clearly pro-fascist.
Me, I'll stand with Antifa.
Not me. Based on what my son has witnessed and heard, I believe it to be white supremists.
Just out of curiosity, how did Twitter link a newly created account to white nationalists? The story didn't say and it seems to me that in the absence of someone identifying themselves in their profile or sharing an IP or email address with someone who had, the claim would be hard to verify.
I'm not implying that the story lacks credibility but learned long ago to question accusations read on the internet.
I don't pretend to understand how this is derived. Hubster who has multiple certifications in cybersecurity says it is quite easy to figure it out.
Teacher Terry
6-2-20, 2:20pm
I find the property destruction disgusting. We didn’t need a curfew last night. The rioters are usually different people than the protesters. I hope they identify and arrest the people committing crimes and not the people exercising their right to protest. IL do you have insurance on the little house that was burned?
I don't pretend to understand how this is derived. Hubster who has multiple certifications in cybersecurity says it is quite easy to figure it out.Yes it is, as an example I could easily trace the IP address you posted from back to a specific city and internet service provider and with the help of that ISP it could be traced back to your household or business if it were a commercial account. I was just curious to know how far Twitter goes to identify its users and their associations or if assumptions are made in lieu of that.
iris lilies
6-2-20, 2:30pm
I find the property destruction disgusting. We didn’t need a curfew last night. The rioters are usually different people than the protesters. I hope they identify and arrest the people committing crimes and not the people exercising their right to protest. IL do you have insurance on the little house that was burned?
Campbell House is not my house. Something on that property was set afire.It is one of 10 entities reciving assets from my estate when I die, so it is important to me.
Insurance. Not even a consideration. It would never be rebuilt, could never be rebuilt, not even remotely. I’m sure there’s some kind of insurance on Campbell House structures though.
There certainly seems to be no shortage of Reichstag Fire theories circulating. Neither the Antifa Or White Supremacy camps strike me as having the numbers or organizational capabilities needed to orchestrate what they’ve been accused of.
How do you know they are not committed by collective identities?
Because collective identities are insubstantial mental constructs incapable of pulling triggers or looting stores in the physical world. At best, they are used by people in the real world to justify or excuse their actions.
There certainly seems to be no shortage of Reichstag Fire theories circulating. Neither the Antifa Or White Supremacy camps strike me as having the numbers or organizational capabilities needed to orchestrate what they’ve been accused of.
You'd be surprised how few it takes and we have no idea how many groups are out there across the country. I'm aware of 2 small groups in the PNW: Northern Idaho and Eastern Oregon.
gimmethesimplelife
6-2-20, 7:02pm
Good news! The roofer down the street who has been furloughed told me that he heard charges are coming for the other three sociopathic officers who aided and abbetted the cold blooded murder of George Floyd by standing by and doing nothing. Thank God! And if they are acquitted? I'd say have a plan for fleeing as America is going to burn, baby, burn. I would not be surprised to see Minneapolis to be a solid sheet of flame if any of these officers is not imprisoned. America has had it's fill. Thank God! Rob
Because collective identities are insubstantial mental constructs incapable of pulling triggers or looting stores in the physical world. At best, they are used by people in the real world to justify or excuse their actions.
Speak English. What are you saying?
I'd say have a plan for fleeing as America is going to burn, baby, burn.
Or have a plan to stay, and help your family, friends, and community.
Teacher Terry
6-2-20, 7:16pm
Rioting, stealing and burning hurts the black communities which are often poor badly. I am all for peaceful protests. Glad I no longer live in the Midwest.
Good news! The roofer down the street who has been furloughed told me that he heard charges are coming for the other three sociopathic officers who aided and abbetted the cold blooded murder of George Floyd by standing by and doing nothing. Thank God! And if they are acquitted? I'd say have a plan for fleeing as America is going to burn, baby, burn. I would not be surprised to see Minneapolis to be a solid sheet of flame if any of these officers is not imprisoned. America has had it's fill. Thank God! Rob
Let's hope. Every police department in the country should be going through their records and preparing to remove problem officers from the force. Anonymous tip lines should be set up so honest police can whistleblow on corrupt cops. IT should run daily reports and anyone turning off their body cam should be suspended without pay first offense, fired second offense. The culture can change but the bad cops will fight it tooth and nail.
Apparently yesterday the DC police boxed in a group of peaceful protestors shortly before the curfew was to start and then attacked them. Fortunately one of the residents of the street generously opened his door and took in literally hundreds of them and let them stay until the curfew lifted this morning and they were able to leave safely. This not too long after police teargassed another group of peaceful protestors outside the white house so that trump could cross the street for an uninvited photo op at a church. It's becoming increasingly difficult to figure out who exactly the thugs are anymore.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/protesters-holed-up-in-northwest-dc-home-overnight-emerge-after-curfew-lifts/2020/06/02/843bbba8-a4d7-11ea-bb20-ebf0921f3bbd_story.html#comments-wrapper
ApatheticNoMore
6-2-20, 8:04pm
I've seen calls to defund the police, that seems to be more what is being requested, to the extent anything is, than trying to reform them. But nice we get solutions noone seems to actually be asking for.
Apparently yesterday the DC police boxed in a group of peaceful protestors shortly before the curfew was to start and then attacked them. Fortunately one of the residents of the street generously opened his door and took in literally hundreds of them and let them stay until the curfew lifted this morning and they were able to leave safely. This not too long after police teargassed another group of peaceful protestors outside the white house so that trump could cross the street for an uninvited photo op at a church. It's becoming increasingly difficult to figure out who exactly the thugs are anymore.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/protesters-holed-up-in-northwest-dc-home-overnight-emerge-after-curfew-lifts/2020/06/02/843bbba8-a4d7-11ea-bb20-ebf0921f3bbd_story.html#comments-wrapper
There is a big one in the White House. This shows the level.
Apparently yesterday the DC police boxed in a group of peaceful protestors shortly before the curfew was to start and then attacked them. Fortunately one of the residents of the street generously opened his door and took in literally hundreds of them and let them stay until the curfew lifted this morning and they were able to leave safely. This not too long after police teargassed another group of peaceful protestors outside the white house so that trump could cross the street for an uninvited photo op at a church. It's becoming increasingly difficult to figure out who exactly the thugs are anymore.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/protesters-holed-up-in-northwest-dc-home-overnight-emerge-after-curfew-lifts/2020/06/02/843bbba8-a4d7-11ea-bb20-ebf0921f3bbd_story.html#comments-wrapper
No group of people is going to give up their power, privilege and wealth to others without pressure. Colin Kaepernick tried peaceful protest and there was so much white backlash he lost his job. So the pressure of peaceful protest was insufficient to stop the police killings. I don't think the current level of property damage is sufficient to bring about change either. It's not like anyone is saying let's sit down and negotiate with the protestors. It's more like let them vent, and if they do more than verbally complain then arrest them.
Colin Kaepernick tried peaceful protest and there was so much white backlash he lost his job. I think he lost his job because he was protesting while representing his employer on the field. Public figures representing an employer should limit their protesting to their own time unless explicitly authorized by the employer.
Teacher Terry
6-2-20, 8:43pm
Alan you are correct. As a state employee I couldn’t do that while on the clock.
I think he lost his job because he was protesting while representing his employer on the field. Public figures representing an employer should limit their protesting to their own time unless explicitly authorized by the employer.
But why did his cause bother his employers? If he was wearing pink breast cancer ribbons or some other cause without getting permission they wouldn't have fired him.They fired him because of white backlash. It was because some white people were so offended by the black call for an end to police brutality that a significant number of them stopped coming to football games or watching them on TV.
There was even one poster here who stopped watching football. I think he left the forums later - William from PA?. I wonder if he's happy now with the results of sweeping the issue under the rug and hoping it would go away.
How would you feel if your neighborhood was destroyed? I am hand-wringy about property damage. In many cases, these are small owned businesses that people worked HARD to get. Some of the neighborhoods being destroyed will take years to rebuild. I think it is disgusting!
I would feel sad and angry. But that doesn’t erase our 200 years of institutional racism. We need to own up to that as a nation.
And let me reiterate, property destruction is in no way comparable to the loss of life. We have institutionalIzard murder of black man in our country. I have no right to criticize anyone who is acting out against property when we’re killing them.
Apparently law enforcement harming protestors has a very long history in the US. Longer even than the history of the US as a country.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Massacre?wprov=sfti1
Good news! The roofer down the street who has been furloughed told me that he heard charges are coming for the other three sociopathic officers who aided and abbetted the cold blooded murder of George Floyd by standing by and doing nothing.
Huh. I live here, with my face glued to the TV and newspapers here, and I haven't heard that that's a for-sure...
While we (*checks watch*) still live with a rule of law, charges lodged against defendants must be proved in court or those people do not get convicted. "Murder 1" may be a satisfying charge to issue in this heinous/inexcusable/terrible/pick your adjective death. But if the state cannot prove that Derek Chauvin set out to murder Floyd specifically, they don't get a Murder 1 conviction and Chauvin walks out the courtroom doors. The state will charge what they believe they can prosecute. It may not be the punishment some would like to see but it's what's available right now. It's what was done in Mohamed Noor's case last year in the shooting of Justine Ruszczyk and it worked at a time when convicting cops is a rare thing.
I expect that, when the state believes they have enough evidence to try and, presumably, convict the other three (ex-)officers, they will arrest and charge them. I am sure Governor Walz and Attorney General Ellison are quite aware of possible public reactions should they overreach for a conviction and fail to get it. Better to set realistic expectations than talk loudly and reach far -- and do little or nothing.
Thank God! And if they are acquitted? I'd say have a plan for fleeing as America is going to burn, baby, burn. I would not be surprised to see Minneapolis to be a solid sheet of flame if any of these officers is not imprisoned. America has had it's fill. Thank God! Rob
Rob, you do know that at least two or three members of this forum live in Minneapolis/St. Paul or have loved ones who live here? What we've gone through over the last week is bad enough. Aside from the damage caused by watching someone die in front of you for no good reason, the worst damage in the rioting here affected neighborhoods full of people who already were teetering on the edge of the American economy. Many people, of all colors, are hurting, undeservedly. Maybe I'm reading this wrong -- I certainly hope so -- but you seem to be quite okay with a violent response to acquittal. Is that so?
gimmethesimplelife
6-2-20, 11:47pm
Huh. I live here, with my face glued to the TV and newspapers here, and I haven't heard that that's a for-sure...
While we (*checks watch*) still live with a rule of law, charges lodged against defendants must be proved in court or those people do not get convicted. "Murder 1" may be a satisfying charge to issue in this heinous/inexcusable/terrible/pick your adjective death. But if the state cannot prove that Derek Chauvin set out to murder Floyd specifically, they don't get a Murder 1 conviction and Chauvin walks out the courtroom doors. The state will charge what they believe they can prosecute. It may not be the punishment some would like to see but it's what's available right now. It's what was done in Mohamed Noor's case last year in the shooting of Justine Ruszczyk and it worked at a time when convicting cops is a rare thing.
I expect that, when the state believes they have enough evidence to try and, presumably, convict the other three (ex-)officers, they will arrest and charge them. I am sure Governor Walz and Attorney General Ellison are quite aware of possible public reactions should they overreach for a conviction and fail to get it. Better to set realistic expectations than talk loudly and reach far -- and do little or nothing.
Rob, you do know that at least two or three members of this forum live in Minneapolis/St. Paul or have loved ones who live here? What we've gone through over the last week is bad enough. Aside from the damage caused by watching someone die in front of you for no good reason, the worst damage in the rioting here affected neighborhoods full of people who already were teetering on the edge of the American economy. Many people, of all colors, are hurting, undeservedly. Maybe I'm reading this wrong -- I certainly hope so -- but you seem to be quite okay with a violent response to acquittal. Is that so?SteveinMN, no, I am NOT OK with such. Such is not of my seeking. I only posted this because I'm afraid it might happen. Just like with our 8 to 5 curfew here, I worry a great deal for those in the infamous 85006 still employed getting off work after 8 PM. I worry one of my neighbors may be murdered by the Phoenix Police for no reason. Just like I worry for Minneapolis (and ofher cities such as Milwaukie, Baltimore, Atlanta, Houston, Chicago) doing a great deal more burning.
No happiness comes to me from any of those thoughts. It's just the reality of America. Rob
Teacher Terry
6-3-20, 1:03am
Here you can be out after the curfew if you are going to or from work or for a medical related reason. Many people will end up with anxiety or PTSD living with this. My sister is much older and lived through the Milwaukee riots in 1968. Terrifying and not fun.
Here you can be out after the curfew if you are going to or from work or for a medical related reason. Many people will end up with anxiety or PTSD living with this. My sister is much older and lived through the Milwaukee riots in 1968. Terrifying and not fun.
If I were a POC I’d be doing anything I could to make sure I didn’t have to be out after the curfew. Because doing so would risk winding up dead. As a middle aged white dude, not so much worry.
If I were a POC I’d be doing anything I could to make sure I didn’t have to be out after the curfew. Because doing so would risk winding up dead. As a middle aged white dude, not so much worry.
It's too bad our major cities are so often highly segregated. Bystanders were pleading with Chauvin to stop, but there was little they could do. I have wondered what would have happened if I had been walking by and tried to intervene. I would probably have been arrested for interfering with a police officer, but I doubt they would have killed me too since I am middle-aged, middle class, female and white.
gimmethesimplelife
6-3-20, 7:16am
If I were a POC I’d be doing anything I could to make sure I didn’t have to be out after the curfew. Because doing so would risk winding up dead. As a middle aged white dude, not so much worry.Bingo! This is ecactly why I live in so much fear for my Hispanic neighbors. Phoenix really is a tinder box ready to ignite and become Minneapolis in the Sonoran Desert at the first illegal.misstep by police - and the Phoenix Police have historically had no problems routinely and ostentatiously bteaking the law/engaging in brutality. It's just a question of when here.
Thank you, Rob. I understand that such a violent reaction may come but I cannot imagine any mentally-healthy person wanting to see it.
Maybe this past week or so is the Stonewall of the BIPOC (why are B and I included when they already should be part of POC?) situation. I would like to think that there could be an event that could galvanize real change. But after watching a kid shoot up an elementary school and kill two dozen people and seeing about zero change in any of the factors connected to that event, I will believe such change when I see it.
Why the hell is "Don't constrict your prisoner's airway for ten minutes" (or at all, preferably) apparently not a given for law enforcement? Even now!
https://www.insider.com/video-seattle-police-officer-knee-to-neck-2020-5
iris lilies
6-3-20, 10:38am
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/retired-police-captain-shot-to-death-at-st-louis-pawn-shop-in-slaying-caught-on/article_d482138c-0224-5393-bd87-9898bebb3fd1.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1
This article details the sad instance of a black man, shot In St Louis Monday night and lying in his own blood, dying, while bystanders stand around and film it. In this instance there are many bad actors but at this very moment I am most disgusted with Facebook for removing the video. I’m not sure why some videos of some black men dying in a public place are OK on FB but others are not.
I think in our current situation it is very bad form for me to provide a “but what about this “ commentary, and that’s not necessarily what I’m doing because thugs are thugs, criminals are criminals, and shooters are going to kill people that’s just the way it is.
But Facebook, they’re going to decide which ones violate their code? I guess that’s cause those decisions will always be ad hoc, and shooting from the hip.
It is hard to be a consistent censor.
gimmethesimplelife
6-3-20, 10:44am
Thank you, Rob. I understand that such a violent reaction may come but I cannot imagine any mentally-healthy person wanting to see it.
Maybe this past week or so is the Stonewall of the BIPOC (why are B and I included when they already should be part of POC?) situation. I would like to think that there could be an event that could galvanize real change. But after watching a kid shoot up an elementary school and kill two dozen people and seeing about zero change in any of the factors connected to that event, I will believe such change when I see it.SteveinMN - I very much respect your investment in your community. I share this with you - we may have different takes and believe in different courses of action from time to time - but we are both invested in our communities. Kudos to us both as many Americans don't seem to share this investment with us. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
6-3-20, 10:50am
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/retired-police-captain-shot-to-death-at-st-louis-pawn-shop-in-slaying-caught-on/article_d482138c-0224-5393-bd87-9898bebb3fd1.html#tracking-source=home-top-story-1
This article details the sad instance of a black man, shot In St Louis Monday night and lying in his own blood, dying, while bystanders stand around and film it. In this instance there are many bad actors but at this very moment I am most disgusted with Facebook for removing the video. I’m not sure why some videos of some black men dying in a public place are OK on FB but others are not.
I think in our current situation it is very bad form for me to provide a “but what about this “ commentary, and that’s not necessarily what I’m doing because thugs are thugs, criminals are criminals, and shooters are going to kill people that’s just the way it is.
But Facebook, they’re going to decide which ones violate their code? I guess that’s cause those decisions will always be ad hoc, and shooting from the hip.
It is hard to be a consistent censor.Something just dawned on me, IL. Though we don't often agree and bicker from time to time - I do respect your investment in your community, too. I haven't completely followed your story so I am not sure if you are still in St. Louis or not - if not, I respect your investment in it while there. Rob
iris lilies
6-3-20, 12:15pm
Something just dawned on me, IL. Though we don't often agree and bicker from time to time - I do respect your investment in your community, too. I haven't completely followed your story so I am not sure if you are still in St. Louis or not - if not, I respect your investment in it while there. Rob
Thanks
rob. Indeed I invest much in my St. Louis urban core community, a zip code with a murder rate higher than most areas in the world. When I lookEd for a weekend house that became our Hermann house, I wanted a community that had strong social organizations that I could join. We have not moved to Hermann yet however.
And let me reiterate, property destruction is in no way comparable to the loss of life. We have institutionalIzard murder of black man in our country. I have no right to criticize anyone who is acting out against property when we’re killing them.
I do. Those people did nothing to them. Property destruction is in no way congruent to human life!
ApatheticNoMore
6-3-20, 2:15pm
My bfs neighborhood seemed to have been targeted for really no reason but bullying social media behavior. It's like a game I played as a teenager where I would call a random number and say "you have won 100 free prank calls".
I mean one could have hoped but none could have thought such a protest at this time would be entirely without looting etc.. Nor was it something organic that grew out of that neighborhood, it was social media. It's not wealthy, it's working to some middle class, it's not even mostly white, it's more Hispanic than white, largely illegals. It's a bunch of barely making it, even back a few months ago in the good times, businesses and a few large chains, only the latter will survive. I mean much was probably doomed to covid anyway, so it's not all this. In a place where they have been trying to revive business forever with only a few hanging on businesses. Meanwhile bf and his mom afraid they might have to flee (breaking curfew and frankly social distancing we have maintained among the elderly for months at this point - to flee to my apartment haha). Well it passed, there was looting. And that was the day I find out through work a doctors office was broken into.
gimmethesimplelife
6-3-20, 3:22pm
Good news!!!! Derek Chauvin has now had his charge upgraded to 2nd degree murder and the other three former officers have been charged too! This journey is nowhere near over but today America accelerates onto the expressway of this journey. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
6-3-20, 4:12pm
I've seen calls to defund the police, that seems to be more what is being requested, to the extent anything is, than trying to reform them. But nice we get solutions noone seems to actually be asking for.Defunding? Interesting idea. This would take away from their numbers but I can't see how it would force them into no bs allowed full no excuses compliance with the law. America will no longer accept anything less. But it's still an interesting idea. How do you propose it would work/what would the upsides be? Rob
ApatheticNoMore
6-3-20, 4:43pm
Much of it just an effort to switch funding to other priorities than police especially given that the police budget is often the ONLY one not being cut (and sometimes increased) due to covid/economic crisis driven budget cuts (which is a reason one can trivialize property damage and in some sense it is, but one might imagine it repairable, and they might be wrong, as no city or state money actually exists to repair the damage if it is to public property, say a municipal bus, or may anytime in the foreseeable future - so we were already in deep, we're now in deeper).
Anyway defund the police, not all of it is absolute, that there will be NO police, some people want that, but I think much of it is just a call to switch some of the police funding to social services.
https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/defund-the-police-1007254/
This journey is nowhere near over but today America accelerates onto the expressway of this journey. Rob
Dude. We're still just trying to get out of the parking lot.
gimmethesimplelife
6-4-20, 1:43pm
Something positive for once. Apparently with these new charges, the streets of America were calmer last night. Good to see at least a temporary reprieve. I doubt it's over, meaning the burning, looting, and rioting - but I'm sure grateful for any temporary break there can be. Rob
Something positive for once. Apparently with these new charges, the streets of America were calmer last night. Good to see at least a temporary reprieve. I doubt it's over, meaning the burning, looting, and rioting - but I'm sure grateful for any temporary break there can be. Rob
Nevada arrested some Boogaloo Boys yesterday. It's a start (and I'm sure, just the tip of the lily-white iceberg).
Nevada arrested some Boogaloo Boys yesterday. It's a start (and I'm sure, just the tip of the lily-white iceberg).
Would you call it a vast right wing conspiracy?
Would you call it a vast right wing conspiracy?
I don't see them in my org chart, but mine is a couple years out of date.
Would you call it a vast right wing conspiracy?
Only in their minds. But they are enough of a nuisance that it gives cover to president sad sack's tying protestors, rioters, and looters all into one big fictitious group for people inclined to want to believe his lies.
And the good news in my area is, in addition to concrete proposals for reforms, NO spike in corona cases 2 weeks after large protests. Our numbers continue to trend downwards. Most protesters were young and I think that is a factor in their favor. It turns out the nervous nellies were wrong. Trump draws an older crowd so the results of his Oklahoma rally may differ. Time will tell.
iris lilies
6-16-20, 6:05pm
And the good news in my area is, in addition to concrete proposals for reforms, NO spike in corona cases 2 weeks after large protests. Our numbers continue to trend downwards. Most protesters were young and I think that is a factor in their favor. It turns out the nervous nellies were wrong. Trump draws an older crowd so the results of his Oklahoma rally may differ. Time will tell.
you can only hope! Let the ‘rona kill off the old Trumpsters, That’s one way to defeat him
That's okay. I mean, with the pandemic going on, almost everyone would feel safe staying at home. I have no problems in doing that because you can still find some ways to keep yourself busy in the comfort of your home. As for me, I just to go to a certain site and play games in there for hours. This is so much better compared to going out and risking the spread of the virus to your family.
Well Rob you didn't protest but the verdict delivered justice anyways.
gimmethesimplelife
4-20-21, 9:32pm
Well Rob you didn't protest but the verdict delivered justice anyways.
I have been avoiding controversy here lately in light of our losing really great members. All I'm going to say is that I am very grateful for the verdict. Rib
gimmethesimplelife
4-20-21, 9:34pm
Should have been Rob above. Rob
Teacher Terry
4-21-21, 12:00am
I am too Rob.
I have been avoiding controversy here lately in light of our losing really great members. All I'm going to say is that I am very grateful for the verdict. Rib
I think in this case it seems to be the right verdict.
As if there aren't enough policing issues, I saw on the news today that defective handguns, banned by the Canadian military because they fire without the trigger being pulled, are in use in numerous US police departments.
As if there aren't enough policing issues, I saw on the news today that defective handguns, banned by the Canadian military because they fire without the trigger being pulled, are in use in numerous US police departments.
Which ones?
I heard Canada is in the process of replacing the Browning Hi Powers that have been standard issue since the Second World War.
I heard Canada is in the process of replacing the Browning Hi Powers that have been standard issue since the Second World War.
This is what I’ve heard, as well.
This is what I’ve heard, as well.
Sig sauer is the weapon in question.
Sig sauer is the weapon in question.I carried a Sig Sauer for several years back in the 90's before switching over to a Glock. What is the problem with the Sig?
Alan, it fires without the trigger being pulled.
https://www.wcvb.com/article/a-handgun-popular-with-police-and-civilians-may-have-a-dangerous-flaw/34601120#:~:text=officers%20shot%20themselves.%E2% 80%9D-,Sig%20Sauer%20did%20initiate%20a%20voluntary%20up grade%20program%20in%202017,were%20upgraded%20by%2 0the%20company.
You have to scroll up to read the whole article.
Alan, it fires without the trigger being pulled.
https://www.wcvb.com/article/a-handgun-popular-with-police-and-civilians-may-have-a-dangerous-flaw/34601120#:~:text=officers%20shot%20themselves.%E2% 80%9D-,Sig%20Sauer%20did%20initiate%20a%20voluntary%20up grade%20program%20in%202017,were%20upgraded%20by%2 0the%20company.
You have to scroll up to read the whole article.
Ah, the SIG P320.
There's a recall for that.
https://www.sigsauer.com/p320-voluntary-upgrade-program
It doesn't just randomly "fire without the trigger being pulled", without the recall, there's a chance it will go off if dropped "just so". Many firearms do this.
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