View Full Version : YES! YES! YES!
gimmethesimplelife
6-7-20, 8:13pm
The Minneapolis City Council voted a veto proof.vote to disband the Minneapolis PD!!!
I never thought I'd live to see such a wondrous thing - and in the United States! Color me thunderstruck but beyond grateful. Rob
The Minneapolis City Council voted a veto proof.vote to disband the Minneapolis PD!!!
I never thought I'd live to see such a wondrous thing - and in the United States! Color me thunderstruck but beyond grateful. RobThey haven't voted, they've issued a mission statement.
I suppose the good thing is there'll be lots of new job opportunities within the gangs who'll take advantage of the loss of opposition to protection rackets and hooliganism designed to benefit protection rackets. It should be cost effective too because the same hooligans can work both sides of the racket.
By the way I drove through Minneapolis this morning, parts of it looked like London during the Blitz, maybe if they can disband the police the rest of it can too.
Maybe you should move there. There will be some bargains as those that can will flee.
gimmethesimplelife
6-7-20, 8:47pm
They haven't voted, they've issued a mission statement.
I suppose the good thing is there'll be lots of new job opportunities within the gangs who'll take advantage of the loss of opposition to protection rackets and hooliganism designed to benefit protection rackets. It should be cost effective too because the same hooligans can work both sides of the racket.
By the way I drove through Minneapolis this morning, parts of it looked like London during the Blitz, maybe if they can disband the police the rest of it can too.Numerous media sources are reporting a veto proof 9 out of 12 vote majority. The Minneapolis PD is toast Thank God. Now the question is - which PD will be next? Rob
Numerous media sources are reporting a veto proof 9 out of 12 vote majority. The Minneapolis PD is toast Thank God. Now the question is - which PD will be next? Rob
So, if I was robbed or threatened or my child was missing or car broken into, etc., who would I call?
I hope some real reform is on the horizon. This gives me hope.
I hope some real reform is on the horizon. This gives me hope.
Reform is one thing, disbanding is another. So, seriously, who would I call?
Reform is one thing, disbanding is another. So, seriously, who would I call?
Rob apparently doesn’t seem to care about such things. Police are evil, so they need to go away. He’s said in the past when asked, that if he observed a rape in progress, he wouldn’t call the cops. Because he doesn’t want to deal with them. Ever.
I suppose the good thing is there'll be lots of new job opportunities within the gangs who'll take advantage of the loss of opposition to protection rackets and hooliganism designed to benefit protection rackets. It should be cost effective too because the same hooligans can work both sides of the racket.
Would the protection rackets be like those run by the NYPD and unveiled by Serpico?
Teacher Terry
6-7-20, 11:44pm
A friend of mine from Minneapolis said that the police department wouldn’t be disbanded but some of the money would be redirected to social services/social workers, etc like it used to be. Programs have shrunk while the police force has decreased. So if a person is suicidal you don’t send a cop who is likely to make it worse. Some cities have crisis teams of cops and social workers in dangerous mental health situations. My friend thinks it’s a great idea.
Would the protection rackets be like those run by the NYPD and unveiled by Serpico?I think it would be more like "Gangs of New York" where if you don't pay your monthly or weekly dues, your house may burn down and the local private fire brigade which doubles as local arsonists can't help you because you haven't paid your dues.
They haven't voted, they've issued a mission statement.
Numerous media sources are reporting a veto proof 9 out of 12 vote majority. You reported the vote before it was taken, but those goofy council members eventually did vote to disband their police department and replace it with "community based" public safety programs. I think that's code for gangs.
I'll be travelling through The Badlands tomorrow but now I wonder if the South Dakota Badlands haven't been usurped in spirit by Minnesota Anarchists?
Yes, I don't see the absence of a police force as a healthy thing for a society, for the reasons everyone is mentioning.
I do think having more money go to social services is a really good thing.
But there will always be criminals who prey on those they perceive as weaker than they, often women.
So you're going to get a corrupt system of private for pay police protection, and then we really are more like a third world country. In my opinion, anyway.
Or alternately, our future could look more like Europe where the police don’t carry many weapons at all, and there are social services that are better funded. The choice isn’t an all or nothing one between fully militarized police or local gangs. There are solutions in between those dichotomies.
Which would be ideal! So how does disbanding the police force lead to that kind of system? That's where I am not following.
If they mean what they say, and this isn’t some superficial rebranding, why would anyone with something to lose stay in town? And if we see a flight from the city, where will the tax base come from for all that promised “investment in the community”? Haven’t we seen this before?
Rob, do you want to get rid of the police in Phoenix, too?
How will that look for crimes like rape, assault, and homocide?
Chicken lady
6-8-20, 9:36am
Happystuff, I believe you would call your county sheriff as they serve the areas outside of municipal police service. Although depending on how funding us handled, they may not come.
or if you know any of those second amendment guys - you could call them.
Or alternately, our future could look more like Europe where the police don’t carry many weapons at all, and there are social services that are better funded. The choice isn’t an all or nothing one between fully militarized police or local gangs. There are solutions in between those dichotomies.
Well put.
The police just show up after the fact most of the time, and overall, they do as much harm as good, IMO, so root and branch reform is way overdue.
We don't need an occupying military force on American soil, shaking down and brutalizing people with little or no provocation.
dado potato
6-8-20, 10:08am
As Terry noted, a Co-Responder Program creates a response team consisting of a law enforcement officer and (riding along on the call) a behavioral health specialist. On certain calls, for example a suspected drug overdose, the tactics are intended to de-escalate the situation and to avoid the use of force to subdue the individual. Based on the judgement of the behavioral health specialist, the individual may be referred to immediate behavioral health assessment rather than arrest.
The link is to the State of Colorado Co-Responder Program. In Colorado it is funded by taxes on the sale of marijuana. (Incidentally, a city may participate in the Co-Responder Program, without permitting the sale of cannabis.)
http://colorado.gov/pacific/cdhs/co-responder-programs
My observation--at least during the day--is that the vast majority of police calls around here are mental health, substance abuse, and "unwanted person" related. There's not much need for fully armed, flash-bang cowboys to address this type of call.
happystuff
6-8-20, 10:35am
Happystuff, I believe you would call your county sheriff as they serve the areas outside of municipal police service. Although depending on how funding us handled, they may not come.
or if you know any of those second amendment guys - you could call them.
Okay. I have his phone number, but with 1 sheriff for the entire county, I guess I shouldn't hold my breath waiting for a response.
Side note: In my mind, sheriff = police. Not really sure what the difference would be or if I would care at a time I'm calling for help.
iris lilies
6-8-20, 10:43am
As Terry noted, a Co-Responder Program creates a response team consisting of a law enforcement officer and (riding along on the call) a behavioral health specialist. On certain calls, for example a suspected drug overdose, the tactics are intended to de-escalate the situation and to avoid the use of force to subdue the individual. Based on the judgement of the behavioral health specialist, the individual may be referred to immediate behavioral health assessment rather than arrest.
The link is to the State of Colorado Co-Responder Program. In Colorado it is funded by taxes on the sale of marijuana. (Incidentally, a city may participate in the Co-Responder Program, without permitting the sale of cannabis.)
http://colorado.gov/pacific/cdhs/co-responder-programs
so, two butts in the seat of a police car rather than one. Will the social workers/behavioral specialists join the police union? That seems lucrative for them. Now that sounds No cheaper than a current system but OK whatever.
I still like our community policing situation in my little neighborhood village where our neighborhood cop often rode around on a bicycle, sometimes on a a scooter, seldom in a police car. He was still buff and armed though for those situations that needed that approach. He retired from the force and he was not replaced in the same way, and our cop force has been decimated anyway so they probably don’t have anyone to do that kind of thing.
But hey the behavioral specialist/social workers will be wonderful for the 2% of the situations where absolutely no violence to anyone besides the perp is threatened. As for the other 98% of the time well – yeah. Good luck with that.
Here in St. Louis we are living some aspects of The Dream of no police because our city prosecutor doesn’t bother to prosecute anyone. We skipped right over the step of disbanding the police department to go right to exercising the powers of the prosecutor who simply does not exercise her powers. And yeah, people like me are getting out of here.
iris lilies
6-8-20, 10:48am
Calling 2A guys. Ridiculous. Why reasonable citizens with guns to protect themselves, their family and their home would drive over to Carry out traditional police activity is beyond me. They wouldn’t.
Teacher Terry
6-8-20, 10:57am
Here we have some crisis teams with the social worker employed by the county and police by the city. Both have unions. More situations require de-escalating then police. You don’t need police to work with the homeless, most MI people aren’t violent. We spend a ton of money waking up the homeless at 4am to avoid social services from helping and telling them to leave. Then they throw away their possessions. If SS do manage to arrive or the media police often threaten them and tell them to leave. SS would try to hook them up to services which is a much better use of tax dollars.
iris lilies
6-8-20, 11:22am
Okay. I have his phone number, but with 1 sheriff for the entire county, I guess I shouldn't hold my breath waiting for a response.
Side note: In my mind, sheriff = police. Not really sure what the difference would be or if I would care at a time I'm calling for help.
Are you people MENTAL!!!??? Any county sheriff policing agency will not simply step in to take up the slack of no city police. Preposterous.
iris lilies
6-8-20, 11:27am
Here we have some crisis teams with the social worker employed by the county and police by the city. Both have unions. More situations require de-escalating then police. You don’t need police to work with the homeless, most MI people aren’t violent. We spend a ton of money waking up the homeless at 4am to avoid social services from helping and telling them to leave. Then they throw away their possessions. If SS do manage to arrive or the media police often threaten them and tell them to leave. SS would try to hook them up to services which is a much better use of tax dollars.
Sigh. Of course we too have mental health/ behaviorists on call to work with police. As for who wakes up the homeless to move them along, why does it matter? If it is as you say that they are not usually violent, why assume the cops always take a violent approach? Or do not know how to de escalate? That these Are the soecial, unique skills if social workers? And you think cops are not versed in “ trying to hook them up to services?”
of course they are.
happystuff
6-8-20, 11:27am
Are you people MENTAL!!!??? Any county sheriff policing agency will not simply step in to take up the slack of no city police. Preposterous.
LOL. Not mental. Just trying to get an answer to my original question. If the police force is disbanded, who would I call? The only answer I received was the county sheriff. I agree a county sheriff could not take up the slack of no police.
iris lilies
6-8-20, 11:30am
LOL. Not mental. Just trying to get an answer to my original question. If the police force is disbanded, who would I call? The only answer I received was the county sheriff. I agree a county sheriff could not take up the slack of no police.
Thanks for letting me use that Britishism “mental.” I find it hilarious!
iris lilies
6-8-20, 11:35am
If they mean what they say, and this isn’t some superficial rebranding, why would anyone with something to lose stay in town? And if we see a flight from the city, where will the tax base come from for all that promised “investment in the community”? Haven’t we seen this before?
I never thought Minneapolis would become Detroit. Or even St. Louis. Twin Cities are great. RIP Twin Cities.
Chicken lady
6-8-20, 11:38am
In my limited experience, if somebody takes a kid, the second amendment guys are very willing to come out. Also, I can think of at least two who would come if my house was broken into.
I didn’t make any value judgement on the sheriff. I just believe that technically the job would fall there. You could also try the state police. And I think the FBI responds for kidnapping? Sometimes at least.
iris lilies
6-8-20, 11:39am
This defunding effort reminds me a whole lot of something I observed 20 years ago when “outsourcing “ was it a real big trend in libraries. It was one private university that took the “outsourcing “ of their behind-the-scenes activities to the extreme and paid an outside company to do it all. That was the most radical approach, but I was reading between the lines to assume that all current employees were recalcitrant slow movers who had not been responding to administrative directives for some years, so laying off the whole kit’n caboodle allow them to regroup The activity and get it performed more efficiently if not at a less costly rate.
A few years later they returned to hire their own in-house staff to perform the activity. Probably all new staff who would actually pay attention to goals of the organization.
So in summary— This case showed an instance of same activities being performed just by different actors
It will be interesting to see how this “police-free future” move will play with the voters. I’ve heard the Council President answered the question of who to call at 2AM by saying it came from “a place of privilege”. Is the general voting population of Minneapolis truly going to accept this grand experiment?
From my reading of the BBC and other UK news sources/blogs, the UK used to have a lot of officers involved in "community policing" - on bike or on foot, really in touch with the community, built a lot of trust. Crime seemed to be down with this approach and the community would tip off officers on more serious things. Due to budget cuts, the community policing aspect has been really affected, and crime is now up.
It will be interesting to see how this “police-free future” move will play with the voters. I’ve heard the Council President answered the question of who to call at 2AM by saying it came from “a place of privilege”. Is the general voting population of Minneapolis truly going to accept this grand experiment?
Huh?
Huh?
That’s what I said. Could it be possible that activists will back the Democrats into a corner on what could prove to be an electoral albatross?
Teacher Terry
6-8-20, 12:09pm
IL, they are not dangerous but waking people up in the middle of the night while they are sleeping and with not enough time to pack is cruel. Our police suck and they don’t want witnesses to how they are treating people. They then pay a fortune to throw away their stuff. The shelters are full so they just move somewhere else rinse and repeat. Not a solution. I saw a kid walking across a street with his headphones on and didn’t know a cop behind him spoke to him. When he didn’t respond the cop came from behind and pushed him a few times until he was against a wall being roughed up. I was driving and at a light. I wish I would have videoed it. We had a totally peaceful protest last night downtown which for once the police didn’t get involved and make worse. The world is watching and fed up.
iris lilies
6-8-20, 1:58pm
Oh sure we had the big giant outrage some years ago about the possessions of the homeless being pitched. Smelly, bug ridden possessions are sacred to some of course. Just yesterday
I passed a woman on the sidewalk with her stroller full of junk and she was leaning into it, talking to the junk. Every item there is precious! I get it. Values. Honor all values. Crappy items matter.
Chicken lady
6-8-20, 2:12pm
Iris
those “crappy” items matter a great deal to some people.
i hope you are never in a position of having things that are important to you forcibly taken from you and destroyed.
i hope you are never in a position where items you might now see as trash become extremely dear because they are a noticeable improvement over nothing and you have no way to replace them.
and I hope you learn more empathy without either experience.
That’s what I said. Could it be possible that activists will back the Democrats into a corner on what could prove to be an electoral albatross?
The below quote is from a poster on another forum I frequent about the "calling someone at 2am is privilege":
"If calling the police because your house is being broken into causes you more problems than not calling, you've done something wrong in life."
Iris
those “crappy” items matter a great deal to some people.
i hope you are never in a position of having things that are important to you forcibly taken from you and destroyed.
i hope you are never in a position where items you might now see as trash become extremely dear because they are a noticeable improvement over nothing and you have no way to replace them.
and I hope you learn more empathy without either experience.
I agree.
I own a lot of things that a lot of people would probably consider "crap". Clothing, furniture, cars, even my house - so some! LOL . The list could go on. But it's mine, as should be the decision to get rid of or keep.
Teacher Terry
6-8-20, 2:49pm
CL, you are absolutely right! People have tents, sleeping bags and other belongings. I know some people that go support the homeless when they know in advance. They don’t interfere but can help them pack and videotape if the police are abusing them. The fact that the police don’t want them around tells the truth. When I worked for the state we had a car that couldn’t go in reverse and was 12 years old. I parked it in the back which was empty so I could take 2 spots and get out without backing up. We were waiting to find a car we wanted. The security guard was going to have it towed saying it was a homeless person’s car. Luckily someone knew it was mine and I went to my supervisor. He was trying to exert some authority because he was powerless. He had the nerve to argue with my boss who told him at least it’s paid for. He would have not have liked the consequences if he had done that.
The below quote is from a poster on another forum I frequent about the "calling someone at 2am is privilege":
"If calling the police because your house is being broken into causes you more problems than not calling, you've done something wrong in life."
You might find it hard to believe, but people have been killed by police when they called for help. Like the Australian woman mentioned in another thread, and others.
You might find it hard to believe, but people have been killed by police when they called for help. Like the Australian woman mentioned in another thread, and others.
Considering the odds, If I’m ever in that position where I live I like my chances calling. If that’s some politician’s idea of privilege, I’ll be happy to take advantage of it.
Teacher Terry
6-8-20, 5:09pm
Jane, people in Reno have too. I know a unarmed white woman during daylight is so dangerous. Plus we don’t have any really bad neighborhoods.
Which would be ideal! So how does disbanding the police force lead to that kind of system? That's where I am not following.
I think the idea is to take some of the police funding that is spent on repurposed military guns and tanks, And use it instead for social programs.
gimmethesimplelife
6-8-20, 8:14pm
I'm feeling so alive and so much hope these days. America is waking up to the evil truth of it's police and not liking what it sees. And police nationwide have brutally assaulted peaceful protestors, thereby making the truth of American police crystal clear.
I've joined The Defund The Police Movement over in the 85008. It's not about direct confrontation - it's about starving the evil beast to begin with. What happened in Minneapolis - the vote to disband - what true American heros those 9 City Council Members are! Along with victims of US police brutality, wouldn't it be cool if they were featured on US stamps, coins, and currency?
I just feel such joy and a new home in the movement. And since I'm not working I have time to offer. Rob
Teacher Terry
6-8-20, 9:35pm
I read that we used to spend less on police and more on programs and somehow that’s gotten reversed. There’s been some talk of laying all of them off and joining with St.Paul for a joint force. It could involve hiring some of the decent ones back. Police departments have been buying equipment from the military. That’s disgusting as we don’t need to use military weapons against our citizens. Of course we cannot operate without any police. But many of the jobs they now do they didn’t always do and are ill equipped to handle.
iris lilies
6-9-20, 10:10am
I'm feeling so alive and so much hope these days. America is waking up to the evil truth of it's police and not liking what it sees. And police nationwide have brutally assaulted peaceful protestors, thereby making the truth of American police crystal clear.
I've joined The Defund The Police Movement over in the 85008. It's not about direct confrontation - it's about starving the evil beast to begin with. What happened in Minneapolis - the vote to disband - what true American heros those 9 City Council Members are! Along with victims of US police brutality, wouldn't it be cool if they were featured on US stamps, coins, and currency?
I just feel such joy and a new home in the movement. And since I'm not working I have time to offer. Rob
The Minneapolis city Council “pledged” to defund the police department. The actual removal of funding would happen at the beginning of their new fiscal year, January 1, unless they take the radical step of removing funding right now for the rest of this fiscal year. Which they have not done.
It is easy to “pledge” to do something in the far future, more than six months down the road.How many politician pledges do we hear? Quite a few.
Me, with no skin in this Minneapolis game, I am all for defunding their police force if that’s what the local populace wants. Put it up for a vote of the citizens of Minneapolis and see how they vote. If it passes with a simple majority, go forth and remove the police department from the city. The end. Let the voters decide.
How local police departments are managed is in fact a —local —decision. Not Donald Trump’s decision, not a decision of the feds, and not my decision. It’s the tax payers of Minneapolis who should decide.
But when the wonderful New World comes to Minneapolis, I can’t see that Rob could do anything but move there directly to be one of those tax paying citizens who will need to prop up property taxes in an already Covid decimated city budget environment.
iris lilies
6-9-20, 10:40am
Iris
those “crappy” items matter a great deal to some people.
i hope you are never in a position of having things that are important to you forcibly taken from you and destroyed.
i hope you are never in a position where items you might now see as trash become extremely dear because they are a noticeable improvement over nothing and you have no way to replace them.
and I hope you learn more empathy without either experience.
My view of possessions of the homeless is informed by an up close and personal view over several years. Your worldview is informed, at least in part, by you having quite a fondness for physical objects.
I have observed over many years objects of the homeless. They are strewn all over the park areas downtown where I worked. Piles of clothing, tennis shoes, blankets, abandoned wheeled vehicles, as well as the trash from the feeding-the-homeless program of the day, all are regularly tossed and abandoned, and I can assure you it ain’t the homeless who are going around cleaning them up.
Then, there is the problem of homeless people dragging their piles o’ crap into the public library where they spend their days. My library had to, as did every urban library, define a maximum size of bag or carrier which they will allow into the building. Our defined maximum was that which would fit under reading tables, so that worked for everyone including students and scholars who carried backpacks, and it also worked for homeless people who could squeeze their possessions down to a smallish bag.
But they continue to leave their stuff outside of library doors and that’s not allowed. It’s subject to a sweep and the stuff disappears. We had to pay employees to do that, train them to look for needle sticks and other pokey things and they had to wear gloves.
I will say that during one cold spell where abandoned blankets were strewn all about outside, I picked up a freshly laundered nice quality cotton quilt, freshly out of some county person’s dryer. I took it home, washed it, and it resides on our bed to this day.
In summary, sure I agree that generally possessions “should “be disposed of only by the owners, AS LONG AS the owners of the stuff own the real estate where the stuff is stored.
Members of our homeless population do not own and control public spaces nor do I. We are all equal owners of these public spaces, that’s why there are rules for use and I find it arrogant to think otherwise, that some people have greater right to public spaces.
The homeless population do not get exclusive rights to public parks. If anyone thinks that’s a good idea perhaps you wouldn’t mind me appropriating a corner of your city’s public park for my own exclusive use, maybe a she-shed that is locked so that only I can use. I will admit to having planted many public plantings over the years, but I do that with the full knowledge that these plants might be stolen, mowed over, or those public spaces appropriated for another use.
That's an interesting point about public spaces. I was buying a printer cartridge in Walmart yesterday and I was accosted by a man who appeared to be mentally ill (he actually looked like he was a meth addict, and there is a shelter near and they are bused to Walmart to shop.) It was a jarring experience. I consider Walmart to be a semi-public space, even though I know it's privately owned by Walmart, but I have a right to feel safe when I shop.
We all need to respect each other--it's not just "we need to respect the homeless." We all need to respect each other and not treat each other poorly.
Teacher Terry
6-9-20, 12:11pm
In 2012 Camden, NJ laid off their entire police force including the chief. They are a very poor community with a bad track record. They interviewed and some were rehired. They were trained in de-escalation and community policing. Some money went to social programs. It’s still a huge success. IL, it sounds like your local cop was also doing community policing before he retired. They need to rename the movement because no one in their right mind is for no police whatsoever. I am sick of people not understanding and taking it literally as it makes for unproductive discourse. Tybee, it’s uncomfortable to be in that situation.
Chicken lady
6-9-20, 12:13pm
Also by having involuntarily lived in my car. And having my former landlord hold a yard sale to dispose of those items that would not fit in my car. She kept the money. - I was not evicted for non payment of rent, she “decided to repaint the place” and threw us out a month early with no warning. Yes, I’m sure that was illegal, the phone book was wasn’t helpful, and I made $80 a week. My share of the rent was $75/month. I also had a car payment and car insurance. Gas to get to work, and a bad habit of eating. There was no glass in the windows and the door to the building didn’t lock. Safety-wise the car was probably an improvement, but I lost my furniture and a toaster.
Also through having helped several friends through homeless periods. Including one with 4 kids. Unfortunately, not every homeless person has friends with resources.
So, are homeless people supposed to never use the library, or are they just supposed to not own blankets?
so glad you rescued that one before it was picked up by somebody who might have actually needed it. And *I’M* the hoarder.
i think we all have equal right to public spaces. In this country we theoretically also have the right to “Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” but apparently not the basic level of food, clothing, and shelter required to support life.
i take back what I said. I actually now wish you could live involuntarily in your car for a few months unbanked in a town where you know nobody. It would be eye opening.
one thing I have learned on my journey as a hoarder living with a normal person is that a space that is empty is not always available and unused. It is often actually full of “space” which is important to normal people.
you seem to believe that your WANT to store your “space” in a public area outweighs someone else’s NEED to store their belongings there. I believe that a healthy community addresses people’s needs rather than subjugating them to other’s wants. Therefor, I think you are solving the wrong problem. If you solve the need, the want becomes much easier to attain.
I think I get where you are coming from, CL, but I am not following this assessment of the situation: "you seem to believe that your WANT to store your “space” in a public area outweighs someone else’s NEED to store their belongings there. "
If all people who needed a place to store their belongings could store them in a public area, just because they needed a place to store them, then wouldn't the public space disappear? It is for the safe use and enjoyment of all, not just those who have items to store there. Couldn't, under this argument, anyone bring big items to store there, and there would no longer be open public space?
On the other hand,why couldn't the library devote some of the parking lot area to carts for those who travel with their items, so that they are cordoned off from the rest of the public space, and it is understood not using it respect that area and leave it alone?
What I have seen is a very aggressive use of the public space by homeless people outside of our library, so that it becomes a safety issue, and families do not want to enter the library if they have to pass through this newly claimed space, which is dominated by the homeless.
iris lilies
6-9-20, 1:03pm
Also by having involuntarily lived in my car. And having my former landlord hold a yard sale to dispose of those items that would not fit in my car. She kept the money. - I was not evicted for non payment of rent, she “decided to repaint the place” and threw us out a month early with no warning. Yes, I’m sure that was illegal...
That is too bad that your legal residence was taken from you, but understand you had support in the form of a legal system defining your right as a paid up tenant. That you chose not to take advantage of that legal support was your choice. And with only a month left in your lease, I probably would’ve done the same thing, just not worth the hassle.
[So, are homeless people supposed to never use the library, or are they just supposed to not own blankets?
Perhaps you didn’t catch that our public library focuses on behaviors while in the library, not who owns real estate/pays rent and who does not. So anyone with a blanket that could fold up to fit under the reading table could use the library, homeless or college student with her Snuggie. They could unfurl the blanket and put it around them. They could NOT haul a bulky blanket into the library along with their wheeled suitcase when the whole shebang would not fit in their defined space. They get to choose which of their belongings come in with them. They get to choice how they behave with their belongings.
Seems beautifully egalitarian and empowering to me.
so glad you rescued that one before it was picked up by somebody who might have actually needed it. And *I’M* the hoarder.
The blanket I took home was there for 4 hours...at the beginning and end of my shift. Perhaps a needy member of the homeless community would have Picked it up and used it, I’ll never know. More likely the litter police would discard it.
Teacher Terry
6-9-20, 1:07pm
It also costs money and time to use the legal system. CL, your landlord was a terrible person.
iris lilies
6-9-20, 1:15pm
I will come back and edit my post later. I’ve tried three times to edit it so that it makes sense and the software just isn’t having any of logical editing today.
Chicken lady
6-9-20, 1:27pm
IL, I don’t even know where to start. I feel like I need to teach you a whole new language before you can understand what I am saying and I don’t think you are motivated to learn it,
tybee, I don’t think many of us would choose to store our belongings in a public space, But your thought about the cart area is what I am trying to get Iris to think about - how can we solve this problem in a way that helps people....or at least doesn’t do them further harm.
iris, I didn’t choose not to pursue the issue because “it wasn’t worth the hassle” I tried to pursue the issue. It was pre cell phone. Pre internet. I had a job. Which I had to go to in order to continue my unfortunate eating and car insurance habits. My choice was Go to work and come back to god knows what, or, triage my belongings into my car, go to work, and come home to a padlock and an empty apartment with the phone cut off (I climbed in the window) The Pay Phone had a phone book. With lots of unhelpful listings telling me things were closed for the weekend and they would call me back. (Where?!) at this point, I was now living in my car and my stuff was gone (I found out about the yard sale from someone in the neighborhood later.)
Then I gave up. Do you believe in a court system that would have given me a free lawyer and then tried a case that resulted in a person with lots of property and community connections having to pay back a month’s rent and a security deposit and buy new furniture for a homeless 20 something? On a schedule that didn’t cost me my job? Do you think they would have fixed the living in the car part while I waited?
TT, Yes, she was a terrible person.
iris lilies
6-9-20, 1:35pm
I don’t mind if the city of St. Louis figures out a storage situation, Can’t say I’m a fizzy attic about it, but I’ll put up with it.I did mind if the public library took on that role, siphoning resources away from core activities consistent with our mission.
Yes, I’m not motivated to learn about how to help the homeless, I’m simply not interested. I’m retired now, I don’t need to think about that stuff. I have my own community concerns that I wish to put resources toward, this is not one of them.
Teacher Terry has exclaimed many times how she would refuse to live in my neighborhood. A weekly dose of homeless people ( not always problems) is part of the deal here.
Can I graze my cows on the village green?
Chicken lady
6-9-20, 1:55pm
You know Bae, I think *you* could.
Chicken lady
6-9-20, 1:55pm
:laff:
If you compost the manure and share the milk.
Can I graze my cows on the village green?
Like Ammon Bundy?
I don’t mind if the city of St. Louis figures out a storage situation, Can’t say I’m a fizzy attic about it, but I’ll put up with it.I did mind if the public library took on that role, siphoning resources away from core activities consistent with our mission.
Yes, I’m not motivated to learn about how to help the homeless, I’m simply not interested. I’m retired now, I don’t need to think about that stuff. I have my own community concerns that I wish to put resources toward, this is not one of them.
Teacher Terry has exclaimed many times how she would refuse to live in my neighborhood. A weekly dose of homeless people ( not always problems) is part of the deal here.
Please tell me “fizzy attic” is a colorful local expression and not just spellcheck.
early morning
6-9-20, 2:34pm
Please tell me “fizzy attic” is a colorful local expression and not just spellcheck.
Either way, I think I'm going to adopt it!
iris lilies
6-9-20, 3:50pm
yes—
Can I graze my cows on the village green?
yep. IF that is the agreed upon rules of use—Either everyone gets to graze their cows, or you, bae, pay the city a fee to do it.
The main building of our public library here is surrounded by small public park squares. The one immediately across the street once had a playground for small children. Thing is, the playground was fenced in and locked because the chi chi preschool across the street leased that bit of land from the city and built their own playground with some expensive equipment.
The tiny children would play in their safe cage while members of the homeless community sat around on the outside watching them. I always thought that was the weirdest juxtaposition of privilege and non- privilege ever. The preschool cost thousands and thousands of dollars Per year.
The preschool has since moved on, but now a fenced in area is privately controlled by a members-only dog park.
iris lilies
6-9-20, 3:56pm
Either way, I think I'm going to adopt it!
Sometimes I hate this software so much. It just doesn’t support editing!
I have no idea what the fizzy Attic is.. You’ll have to ask my voice translator girl, she’s pretty stupid though.
IL, I don’t even know where to start. I feel like I need to teach you a whole new language before you can understand what I am saying and I don’t think you are motivated to learn it,
tybee, I don’t think many of us would choose to store our belongings in a public space, But your thought about the cart area is what I am trying to get Iris to think about - how can we solve this problem in a way that helps people....or at least doesn’t do them further harm.
iris, I didn’t choose not to pursue the issue because “it wasn’t worth the hassle” I tried to pursue the issue. It was pre cell phone. Pre internet. I had a job. Which I had to go to in order to continue my unfortunate eating and car insurance habits. My choice was Go to work and come back to god knows what, or, triage my belongings into my car, go to work, and come home to a padlock and an empty apartment with the phone cut off (I climbed in the window) The Pay Phone had a phone book. With lots of unhelpful listings telling me things were closed for the weekend and they would call me back. (Where?!) at this point, I was now living in my car and my stuff was gone (I found out about the yard sale from someone in the neighborhood later.)
Then I gave up. Do you believe in a court system that would have given me a free lawyer and then tried a case that resulted in a person with lots of property and community connections having to pay back a month’s rent and a security deposit and buy new furniture for a homeless 20 something? On a schedule that didn’t cost me my job? Do you think they would have fixed the living in the car part while I waited?
TT, Yes, she was a terrible person.
For anyone reading this who may find themselves in CL's situation, please know that in many states the law is on the side of the renter. I know that because we had a squatter in my MIL's house when we were renting it out instead of selling it during the recession. We lost 3 months of selling time and a couple grand to a lawyer until we were finally able to evict her. Her social worker told her we have no right to get her out and that she was within her rights to change the locks on the door and call the police if we stepped foot on our own property. I realize, CL that you were not in the position to do that back then. The law is there to protect people like you now, and honest landlords with legitimate rights to evict are by-catch.
As for the two different worldviews that IL talks about.. I do feel that all of us would benefit from walking in the shoes of the dispossessed, ill, poor, and in crisis. I know that if you have never been there, it's hard to understand or empathize because it seems like "hey, if I can get by in life, you can, too." But the fact is, a lot of us are only in a good place by the grace of God. CL has been wrongfully evicted. I have had my car impounded because I didn't have the money to pay for insurance, which causes a cascade of misfortune--inability to get to work, kids hungry because you can't feed them, you can't get your car out because you have no money for the insurance PLUS the impound fee etc. etc. And I'm a college-educated white woman from a good family. Despite that, I've been in survival mode. Living in survival mode is an entirely different universe, and once you've learned that, especially through personal experience, you certainly do develop a different worldview.
iris lilies
6-9-20, 4:31pm
It’s interesting that so many voices chide me because I apparently don’t have the imagination to put myself in someone else’s shoes.
And I just shake my head when I think about the bedbug situation and if our public library had felt responsible for creating storage space for bulky belongings of the homeless. A bit before I retired we were discussing bedbug infestations in our administrative meetings, a growing problem in public libraries. I think taking on the storage of other peoples’ belongings, pounds and pounds of them, would have not done one thing to make that situation any better.
But I welcome anyone who wants to put their personal resources towards storing belongings of of the homeless or pressuring their city fathers to use taxpayer dollars. Enough citizens like the solution, the city fathers will be voted in office another term. If enough citizens don’t like the solution, city fathers will exit.
ApatheticNoMore
6-9-20, 4:34pm
A lot of homeless have gym memberships for several purposes: first to take showers, but also to store their things, and sure to work out if they want.
iris lilies
6-9-20, 4:34pm
For anyone reading this who may find themselves in CL's situation, please know that in many states the law is on the side of the renter. I know that because we had a squatter in my MIL's house when we were renting it out instead of selling it during the recession. We lost 3 months of selling time and a couple grand to a lawyer until we were finally able to evict her. Her social worker told her we have no right to get her out and that she was within her rights to change the locks on the door and call the police if we stepped foot on our own property. I realize, CL that you were not in the position to do that back then. The law is there to protect people like you now, and honest landlords with legitimate rights to evict are by-catch.
As for the two different worldviews that IL talks about.. I do feel that all of us would benefit from walking in the shoes of the dispossessed, ill, poor, and in crisis. I know that if you have never been there, it's hard to understand or empathize because it seems like "hey, if I can get by in life, you can, too." But the fact is, a lot of us are only in a good place by the grace of God. CL has been wrongfully evicted. I have had my car impounded because I didn't have the money to pay for insurance, which causes a cascade of misfortune--inability to get to work, kids hungry because you can't feed them, you can't get your car out because you have no money for the insurance PLUS the impound fee etc. etc. And I'm a college-educated white woman from a good family. Despite that, I've been in survival mode. Living in survival mode is an entirely different universe, and once you've learned that, especially through personal experience, you certainly do develop a different worldview.
I guess I could ask you “gosh catherine, how did that make you FEEL about that tenant squatting on your property? “
But I don’t have to ask how that made you feel, I can pretty much figure out that it was not a happy time for you. And yes tenant rights are paramount in many jurisdictions and yes, it can suck for a landlord.I’ve never wanted to be a landlord because I don’t want to deal with all that.
gimmethesimplelife
6-9-20, 5:59pm
For anyone reading this who may find themselves in CL's situation, please know that in many states the law is on the side of the renter. I know that because we had a squatter in my MIL's house when we were renting it out instead of selling it during the recession. We lost 3 months of selling time and a couple grand to a lawyer until we were finally able to evict her. Her social worker told her we have no right to get her out and that she was within her rights to change the locks on the door and call the police if we stepped foot on our own property. I realize, CL that you were not in the position to do that back then. The law is there to protect people like you now, and honest landlords with legitimate rights to evict are by-catch.
As for the two different worldviews that IL talks about.. I do feel that all of us would benefit from walking in the shoes of the dispossessed, ill, poor, and in crisis. I know that if you have never been there, it's hard to understand or empathize because it seems like "hey, if I can get by in life, you can, too." But the fact is, a lot of us are only in a good place by the grace of God. CL has been wrongfully evicted. I have had my car impounded because I didn't have the money to pay for insurance, which causes a cascade of misfortune--inability to get to work, kids hungry because you can't feed them, you can't get your car out because you have no money for the insurance PLUS the impound fee etc. etc. And I'm a college-educated white woman from a good family. Despite that, I've been in survival mode. Living in survival mode is an entirely different universe, and once you've learned that, especially through personal experience, you certainly do develop a different worldview.True that! Once you have been in survival mode long enough, you never truly see the world the same way. I can so relate to this. Rob
Teacher Terry
6-10-20, 12:42am
IL, yes I have lived in marginal areas in the Midwest. In my old age I don’t intend to deal with it. Our neighborhood is not gated but it’s nice and safe. I know my neighbors. Interesting when I lived in newer subdivisions I barely knew anyone. I have been poor when I was a 21 year old divorced mom with a 2 year old. Thank goodness I had support from my parents when it was needed. Reno is very white and some of my friends have never lived or worked close to a black ghetto with high crime. I see both sides but I don’t think it’s hopeless. I also have black friends that get stopped regularly by the cops for no reason. It’s a complicated issue but it’s about time we as a society work towards change.
iris lilies
6-10-20, 8:02am
IL, yes I have lived in marginal areas in the Midwest. In my old age I don’t intend to deal with it. Our neighborhood is not gated but it’s nice and safe. I know my neighbors. Interesting when I lived in newer subdivisions I barely knew anyone. I have been poor when I was a 21 year old divorced mom with a 2 year old. Thank goodness I had support from my parents when it was needed. Reno is very white and some of my friends have never lived or worked close to a black ghetto with high crime. I see both sides but I don’t think it’s hopeless. I also have black friends that get stopped regularly by the cops for no reason. It’s a complicated issue but it’s about time we as a society work towards change.
Saying anything other than apologetically referring to my white privilege is verboten these days, so I will say that I recognize my privilege in being able to take my white self to Mayberry RFd (Hermann, MO) getting away from inner city strife, and visiting the Big Bad city only when I chose. That IS a life of privilege, for sure. In Hermann our black population is somewhere around 1% yet our police chief is black. The Germans here have long roots in the emancipation movement which they take seriously.It was not a community of slave holders, ever.
Saying anything other than apologetically referring to my white privilege is verboten these days,
I have read that we are in a sort of Cultural Revolution period, where reactionary tendencies are punished with attacks on your reputation and livelihood.
iris lilies
6-10-20, 8:58am
I have read that we are in a sort of Cultural Revolution period, where reactionary tendencies are punished with attacks on your reputation and livelihood.
Fortunately for me, privilege again, I don’t care about my online reputation outside of my neighborhood, and my income comes from the gubmnt. Throw in the fact that I am aged and seldom give a shit anymore, I am practically Teflon coated.
If I had children or grandchildren I would have to act better to set an example.
I have read that we are in a sort of Cultural Revolution period, where reactionary tendencies are punished with attacks on your reputation and livelihood.
I was thinking that too, with Bae's island meeting for re-education for privileged whites.
iris lilies
6-10-20, 9:09am
I was thinking that too, with Bae's island meeting for re-education for privileged whites.
I wonder if we could test out of the reeducation effort, or if we truly have to live it, being sent to the farms to work.
i’m sure we would not be allowed to test out of knowledge of our white privilege, that is purely an intellectual recognition. No, in the need to change our hearts and minds we would have to live and work in the camps, much like a poster above wants me to find myself in the middle of nowhere living out of my car in order to understand at a deep level instability.
I was thinking that too, with Bae's island meeting for re-education for privileged whites.
Isn’t that what they used to call a struggle session?
iris lilies
6-10-20, 9:15am
It just occurred to me that I have an Inner Bag Lady who has always caused me to be very cautious about certain life choices, and she has required me to save money like a fiend. She has been inflexible in that regard!
I actually do think I have a pretty good sense of the instability of life in poverty. That’s what Inner Bag Ladies train us to do, use that fear of unknown to garner and hoard resources i.e. money.
Isn’t that what they used to call a struggle session?
Yup. Complete with kneeling to another human being as ritual humiliation. Something we were taught Americans did not do.
It just occurred to me that I have an Inner Bag Lady who has always caused me to be very cautious about certain life choices, and she has required me to save money like a fiend. She has been inflexible in that regard!
I actually do think I have a pretty good sense of the instability of life in poverty. That’s what Inner Bag Ladies train us to do, use that fear of unknown to garner and hoard resources i.e. money.
Yes, I imagine a lot of frugal people got that way because of some life trauma or another. I had to pawn my engagement ring to buy groceries for my children.
Oh, but hey, if someone deems you "privileged" then all the work you did, all the struggle to improve your circumstances and avoid falling back into poverty-- hey, you're privileged, and the little white academic 30 year old with the great job-- why she is morally superior to you, didn't you know that?
I've heard a lot of women house those internal bag ladies. I've never for a minute entertained the idea that I couldn't support myself, for no reason that I can divine. I probably should have, because I've been careless/cavalier with money to the extent I was heavily in debt for awhile. I'm more careful now, and I've noticed that the more money I have, the less inclined I am to spend it foolishly.
I've noticed that the more money I have, the less inclined I am to spend it foolishly.
Isn't that the truth! Interesting.
Isn't that the truth! Interesting.
I've always loved this exchange between Henry Higgins and Alfred P. Doolittle in Pygmalion/My Fair Lady:
HIGGINS. I suppose we must give him a fiver.
PICKERING. He'll make a bad use of it, I'm afraid.
DOOLITTLE. Not me, Governor, so help me I won't. Don't you be afraid that I'll save it and spare it and live idle on it. There won't be a penny of it left by Monday: I'll have to go to work same as if I'd never had it. It won't pauperize me, you bet. Just one good spree for myself and the missus, giving pleasure to ourselves and employment to others, and satisfaction to you to think it's not been throwed away. You couldn't spend it better.
HIGGINS [taking out his pocket book and coming between Doolittle and the piano] This is irresistible. Let's give him ten. [He offers two notes to the dustman].
DOOLITTLE. No, Governor. She wouldn't have the heart to spend ten; and perhaps I shouldn't neither. Ten pounds is a lot of money: it makes a man feel prudent like; and then goodbye to happiness. You give me what I ask you, Governor: not a penny more, and not a penny less.
I've always loved this exchange between Henry Higgins and Alfred P. Doolittle in Pygmalion/My Fair Lady:
HIGGINS. I suppose we must give him a fiver.
PICKERING. He'll make a bad use of it, I'm afraid.
DOOLITTLE. Not me, Governor, so help me I won't. Don't you be afraid that I'll save it and spare it and live idle on it. There won't be a penny of it left by Monday: I'll have to go to work same as if I'd never had it. It won't pauperize me, you bet. Just one good spree for myself and the missus, giving pleasure to ourselves and employment to others, and satisfaction to you to think it's not been throwed away. You couldn't spend it better.
HIGGINS [taking out his pocket book and coming between Doolittle and the piano] This is irresistible. Let's give him ten. [He offers two notes to the dustman].
DOOLITTLE. No, Governor. She wouldn't have the heart to spend ten; and perhaps I shouldn't neither. Ten pounds is a lot of money: it makes a man feel prudent like; and then goodbye to happiness. You give me what I ask you, Governor: not a penny more, and not a penny less.
Very wise. That made me think of how I always identified with the grasshopper rather than the ant, for some reason.
Yup. Complete with kneeling to another human being as ritual humiliation. Something we were taught Americans did not do.
I believe we're on the cusp of a new social and governmental order based upon white guilt. I'm not surprised to see people's efforts to erase history such as banning any and every thing related to the Confederacy, but I am surprised to see our government do the same such as removing monuments and renaming schools and military installations.
I'm distressed to see businesses and other private institutions begin firing people based upon a social media post due to fear of harassment. I'm distressed by the everyday fear people have of being noticed by groups who will stop at nothing to harass and disgrace them if they say the wrong thing with legal systems and governmental entities assisting them in their efforts.
I don't approve of this foolishness but fear it's become the way things work in the future.
happystuff
6-10-20, 11:48am
I'm not surprised to see people's efforts to erase history such as banning any and every thing related to the Confederacy, but I am surprised to see our government do the same such as removing monuments and renaming schools and military installations.
Interesting take. I don't see it as an effort to "erasing history by banning everything... etc", but I rather see it as not "glorifying" that which probably shouldn't be glorified to the extent is had been. As for renaming monuments, school, installations, etc. it happens for a number of different reasons - usually related to money. Look at the trend in re-naming sports stadiums. LOL. A lot around my way are now named for banks!
I’m starting to have hope that we will finally move past our racist history.
I believe we're on the cusp of a new social and governmental order based upon white guilt. I'm not surprised to see people's efforts to erase history such as banning any and every thing related to the Confederacy, but I am surprised to see our government do the same such as removing monuments and renaming schools and military installations.
I'm distressed to see businesses and other private institutions begin firing people based upon a social media post due to fear of harassment. I'm distressed by the everyday fear people have of being noticed by groups who will stop at nothing to harass and disgrace them if they say the wrong thing with legal systems and governmental entities assisting them in their efforts.
I don't approve of this foolishness but fear it's become the way things work in the future.
I think what you describe is real, but I hope it’s occurring mostly in the froth on our social brew. Ultimately I hope the mass off Americans, no matter their assigned identity, will refuse to bend the knee to the new faith. I think that may in part explain the Trump phenomenon.
I’m starting to have hope that we will finally move past our racist history.
But we've thought that a couple of times over the years. I do hope this is a sustainable youth movement, culminating in real change.
I'm tired of living in Dog-eat-dogistan, personally.
happystuff
6-10-20, 12:29pm
I’m starting to have hope that we will finally move past our racist history.
I'm hoping that this is at least a genuinely continuous start! I really don't think it will happen in my lifetime, but I think visible progress will be made. I think there are too many hateful people that need to die off beforehand.
I believe we're on the cusp of a new social and governmental order based upon white guilt. I'm not surprised to see people's efforts to erase history such as banning any and every thing related to the Confederacy, but I am surprised to see our government do the same such as removing monuments and renaming schools and military installations.
I'm distressed to see businesses and other private institutions begin firing people based upon a social media post due to fear of harassment. I'm distressed by the everyday fear people have of being noticed by groups who will stop at nothing to harass and disgrace them if they say the wrong thing with legal systems and governmental entities assisting them in their efforts.
I don't approve of this foolishness but fear it's become the way things work in the future.
I think statues and symbols glorifying heinous acts of the past belong in museums--maybe "museums of shame." And speaking of shame, I want to know which people in my community or out in the world at large are bad actors; I don't want to inadvertently contribute to them financially or otherwise. I don't see this as having anything to do with "white guilt," which mostly doesn't exist as far as I can see--more like white hubris--but more with basic decency.
early morning
6-10-20, 1:09pm
Jane - I agree completely.
I'm distressed by the everyday fear people have of being noticed by groups who will stop at nothing to harass and disgrace them if they say the wrong thing with legal systems and governmental entities assisting them in their efforts.
Alan, you have very effectively described the stance of Black Lives Matter - the everyday fear of jogging/shopping/driving/etc while Black - but the harassment is too often deadly.
I will not kneel nor kowtow to the new religion. Period. Some white chick who is a neighbor was trying to strong arm people for the protest in my town last week. I just told her I have bad knees and can’t walk/stand for a long time. Given I was limping a bit at the time, she didn’t press her case any more.
My social media is full of diving and Corgi dogs. I don’t put a thing political up. That’s nothing new. People have tried posting political stuff on my page. They are immediately blocked. I’ve warned everyone for months to not do so.
Now there’s the stupid move to remove Gone with the Wind from HBO Max’s film library after someone complained.
How about letting people decide for themselves? Too damn many people these days are incapable of realizing that books and movies are products of their times and may have attitudes that don’t match with current thinking.
I just saw that the memorial on the 54th Massachusetts was vandalized. This was the first company of volunteer black soldiers during the Civil War, depicted in the movie Glory. People are idiots.
Too damn many people need to read some history.
frugal-one
6-10-20, 3:32pm
I think what you describe is real, but I hope it’s occurring mostly in the froth on our social brew. Ultimately I hope the mass off Americans, no matter their assigned identity, will refuse to bend the knee to the new faith. I think that may in part explain the Trump phenomenon.
But isn't that what trump wants us to do? He is going to send the military if we don't bend to his rules! Remember .... law and order!
"law and order" is just a signifier for people who want authoritarian rule, IMO.
Also code for "Keep the peasants in their place."
I think statues and symbols glorifying heinous acts of the past belong in museums--maybe "museums of shame." And speaking of shame, I want to know which people in my community or out in the world at large are bad actors; I don't want to inadvertently contribute to them financially or otherwise. I don't see this as having anything to do with "white guilt," which mostly doesn't exist as far as I can see--more like white hubris--but more with basic decency.
This is a different take on a museum of shame:
https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/boot-monument
Interesting experience here in the village the other day.
The village is built around two main roads, which T together. So, a 3-way intersection, controlled with stop signs.
Protesters, about 30-40 of them, realized they could completely block traffic by crossing in the pedestrian walkways in a continual stream.
Each car would approach the intersection, be blocked from proceeding, people would walk in front of the car, holding their signs, often with the sign holder turning to face the auto and proceeding right up the the bumper, shaking the sign.
Eventually, after 30-60 seconds, the pedestrians would part, to allow the car to proceed. When the car got into the box of the intersection, pedestrians would step in front again in the next pedestrian crossing, preventing the car from either continuing straight, or turning. And again 30-60 seconds of signs being shaken in the face of the driver.
Pedestrians were not maintaining a consistent clockwise or counterclockwise flow, they were rotating in both directions, making things quite confusing for the drivers.
When they caught me in this clever little trap, it was dusk, and it was very very difficult to see what was going on because of the people coming from all directions. There was no way to avoid the trap, once you saw it, there is no method to turn down another path or withdraw.
The next day, one of the organizers explicitly stated "we wanted people here to see what it is like to perhaps be a bit afraid and confused".
This could have ended very poorly.
I debated briefly simply stepping out of my vehicle and leaving it, because I could not proceed through the intersection safely, and I was trapped in the box, and it was uncertain if I'd be allowed to proceed.
In this state, their actions potentially constituted "unlawful imprisonment", a class C felony.
This is a different take on a museum of shame:
https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/boot-monument
Apparently, before he died, he said,
""Let me die in this old uniform in which I fought my battles. May God forgive me for ever having put on another."
A sad end to a sad life.
David Petreaus wrote an interesting article on the topic of renaming military bases that stuck me as rational and well thought out. Probably the most poignant paragraph was this one:
For an organization designed to win wars to train for them at installations named for those who led a losing force is sufficiently peculiar, but when we consider the cause for which these officers fought, we begin to penetrate the confusion of Civil War memory. These bases are, after all, federal installations, home to soldiers who swear an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. The irony of training at bases named for those who took up arms against the United States, and for the right to enslave others, is inescapable to anyone paying attention.
The whole article is well worth a read.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/take-confederate-names-off-our-army-bases/612832/
Personally I don't have any problem with people being shamed for, and facing consequences for, racist actions or speech. I'm just a middle aged man, but I'm old enough to have been a gay teenager when it was still perfectly acceptable for a white house press secretary to make fag jokes when asked during a press briefing what the administration was doing about an epidemic that was killing thousands of gay men. Thankfully society has move on to the point that that would not be acceptable today. But that didn't happen because LGBT people and their supporters sat quietly by while people said homophobic things and committed violent acts against gay people. Getting society beyond racism also isn't going to happen if we sit quietly by and let people's actions slide when they make racist comments like calling our 44th president a monkey on twitter as happened a couple of days ago. People like that deserve to be publicly shamed for their comments. If the consequences serve as a lesson for others who might consider doing the same then it's a success.
gimmethesimplelife
6-10-20, 10:16pm
Interestingly enough in this time of being perched on the edge of sweeping social change (meaning America), I feel very calm and very much vindicated. The reality of America is climbing the social class ladder this time and I believe more of America is facing what I faced about America years ago.
Interestingly enough, I am very calm and quiet these days. I am keeping a background role and am not protesting but am getting involved in social justice via Defund The Police.
There's no need for me to be so in your face these days. George Floyd's death at the hands of America has made the reality of America brutally clear to the world, and much better than I ever could. I'm best off taking a lower profile role in the movement as one of my main goals has been realized - for America to take a good hard look at itself. And do something about itself STAT.
In Phoenix we are not defunding BUT we have fully funded a new civilian oversight office regarding the Phoenix PD. Honestly, I'd rather we defund but these are the cards we have to play with.
I'm liking city councils and politicians nationwide waking up to the truth of US police and how truly evil police unions are. What an exciting time to live in the 85006 and to be alive! Rob
gimmethesimplelife
6-10-20, 10:34pm
I will not kneel nor kowtow to the new religion. Period. Some white chick who is a neighbor was trying to strong arm people for the protest in my town last week. I just told her I have bad knees and can’t walk/stand for a long time. Given I was limping a bit at the time, she didn’t press her case any more.
My social media is full of diving and Corgi dogs. I don’t put a thing political up. That’s nothing new. People have tried posting political stuff on my page. They are immediately blocked. I’ve warned everyone for months to not do so.
Now there’s the stupid move to remove Gone with the Wind from HBO Max’s film library after someone complained.
How about letting people decide for themselves? Too damn many people these days are incapable of realizing that books and movies are products of their times and may have attitudes that don’t match with current thinking.
I just saw that the memorial on the 54th Massachusetts was vandalized. This was the first company of volunteer black soldiers during the Civil War, depicted in the movie Glory. People are idiots.
Too damn many people need to read some history.Gotta say I love Gone With The Wind. How can you not cheer when Scarlett commits cold blooded murder and shoots the Yankee picking through her late Mother's jewelry? How can you not feel inspired by her tearing down the curtains to make a dress to go to Atlanta and try to get her hands on $300 to save Tara? How can you not respect this woman something fierce for her intense will to survive ala the As God is My Witness speech?
I've always seen this movie not as a romance but as a testament to the human will to survive. And it didn't hurt that Clark Gable was so handsome, either - or that Olivia de Havilland was such a great contrast to Vivien Leigh - so classy and elegant.
Now to the social justice aspects. Yes, the blacks in this movie were portrayed as inferiors. Instead of.making the movie unavailable , why don't we further confront the truth that African Americans indeed have valid generations long grievances with the United States and the treatment they have received at the hands of the United States? Rob
gimmethesimplelife
6-10-20, 10:42pm
One more comment about GWTW: This movie DID do something positive for African Americans. Hattie McDaniel, who.of course played Mammy - won an Oscar for the role as Best Supporting Actress - a Hollywood first that an African American took home a statue. Rob
Personally I don't have any problem with people being shamed for, and facing consequences for, racist actions or speech. I'm just a middle aged man, but I'm old enough to have been a gay teenager when it was still perfectly acceptable for a white house press secretary to make fag jokes when asked during a press briefing what the administration was doing about an epidemic that was killing thousands of gay men. Thankfully society has move on to the point that that would not be acceptable today. But that didn't happen because LGBT people and their supporters sat quietly by while people said homophobic things and committed violent acts against gay people. Getting society beyond racism also isn't going to happen if we sit quietly by and let people's actions slide when they make racist comments like calling our 44th president a monkey on twitter as happened a couple of days ago. People like that deserve to be publicly shamed for their comments. If the consequences serve as a lesson for others who might consider doing the same then it's a success.
Hear. hear! I'm tired of the idea that it's OK to protest as long you don't inconvenience anyone, and that it's OK to be as casually cruel as you like without ever facing consequences. Omelet, eggs.
iris lilies
6-11-20, 10:21am
There isn’t anything wrong with responding to someone out as a consequence of their speech.
What might be wrong is the judgement of“ Wrong.”
For instance, there are Reddit forums where Rob would be castigated for saying anything positive about the movie Gone With the wind. Kind Redditors would say he is unconsciously racist, and naive, in his defense of that film. But most Redditors are not that kind and would label that opinion tinned eared, divisive, white privileged, and horrifying in our current environment.
But isn't that what trump wants us to do? He is going to send the military if we don't bend to his rules! Remember .... law and order!
I view Trump and the new thought police as two sides of the same tarnished coin. They seek to enforce two complementary but equally nonsensical world views by threats and intimidation. In many ways, they make each other possible.
David Petreaus wrote an interesting article on the topic of renaming military bases that stuck me as rational and well thought out. Probably the most poignant paragraph was this one:
For an organization designed to win wars to train for them at installations named for those who led a losing force is sufficiently peculiar, but when we consider the cause for which these officers fought, we begin to penetrate the confusion of Civil War memory. These bases are, after all, federal installations, home to soldiers who swear an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. The irony of training at bases named for those who took up arms against the United States, and for the right to enslave others, is inescapable to anyone paying attention.
The whole article is well worth a read.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/06/take-confederate-names-off-our-army-bases/612832/
I think he’s right about that.
There isn’t anything wrong with responding to someone out as a consequence of their speech.
What might be wrong is the judgement of“ Wrong.”
For instance, there are Reddit forums where Rob would be castigated for saying anything positive about the movie Gone With the wind. Kind Redditors would say he is unconsciously racist, and naive, in his defense of that film. But most Redditors are not that kind and would label that opinion tinned eared, divisive, white privileged, and horrifying in our current environment.
That is a good point. Some of these attacks are made on the most wispy of pretexts, or on some offense committed by a spouse. I think we are often in witch-hunt territory today.
I think he’s right about that.
I think he's right in principle as well but I remember when we used to teach American History in schools and there was an explanation for this. At the end of the Civil War our government rightly saw the need to unify the Union, to not assume the role of victor to the vanquished and to honor the losers for their accomplishments rather than scorn them for their perceived betrayal. That worked pretty well for 150 or so years, what makes today any different?
I think he's right in principle as well but I remember when we used to teach American History in schools and there was an explanation for this. At the end of the Civil War our government rightly saw the need to unify the Union, to not assume the role of victor to the vanquished and to honor the losers for their accomplishments rather than scorn them for their perceived betrayal. That worked pretty well for 150 or so years, what makes today any different?
I take your point, but many of these bases were established many years after Reconstruction. I think Fort Bragg, for instance, only goes back to the early twenties. That was a time when the KKK had significant influence in the Democratic Party.
That was a time when the KKK had significant influence in the Democratic Party.I think it still does, although I'd signify it as kkk now with the Dems reliance on soft bigotry.
happystuff
6-11-20, 2:08pm
That worked pretty well for 150 or so years, what makes today any different?
I don't think it "worked pretty well" for all those years; rather, I think opposition was silenced by fear, apathy, and/or ignoring the issue. The difference is that today people are not being silent or apathetic or ignoring it.
frugal-one
6-11-20, 5:04pm
I view Trump and the new thought police as two sides of the same tarnished coin. They seek to enforce two complementary but equally nonsensical world views by threats and intimidation. In many ways, they make each other possible.
What are you referring to? Republicans?
"Thought police" is another one of those meaningless phrases like "identity politics." You can think any damn thing you like all day, every day, and no one will know or care.
"Thought police" is another one of those meaningless phrases like "identity politics." You can think any damn thing you like all day, every day, and no one will know or care.Oh I don't know about that. Just have someone suggest masks aren't necessarily a good thing and watch the name calling and overall mean spiritedness that ensues.
ApatheticNoMore
6-11-20, 5:50pm
Doesn't "thought police" imply thought. Yea well then, that's can't be thought policing.
iris lilies
6-11-20, 6:13pm
Doesn't "thought police" imply thought. Yea well then, that's can't be thought policing.
More like “Expression of thought” police, if that makes you happy.
But the goal is to eliminate the bad thoughts in our heads. Badthink is a bad thing.
I think "bad things" all the time, especially in traffic. But I don't act on those things, luckily for all involved.
Considering that our white nationalist president has now scheduled a rally and his political convention on the anniversaries of two major events of racial violence in our history, in the cities where those events occurred, I'd say that the "success" of the last 150 years needs to be reassessed. I wonder how many more events he can schedule in this style. I'm Stephen Miller is kicking himself that he didn't come up with this idea soon enough to have a rally in Memphis on April 4th.
Chicken lady
6-11-20, 8:10pm
I want people to express their thoughts. I want to know who they are. I reserve the right to react as I see fit - moderated by or taking the consequences of doing so.
frugal-one
6-11-20, 9:05pm
Considering that our white nationalist president has now scheduled a rally and his political convention on the anniversaries of two major events of racial violence in our history, in the cities where those events occurred, I'd say that the "success" of the last 150 years needs to be reassessed. I wonder how many more events he can schedule in this style. I'm Stephen Miller is kicking himself that he didn't come up with this idea soon enough to have a rally in Memphis on April 4th.
The extreme white supremist is having a rally and those that attend will be required to sign off that if they get sick they can't blame (or sue) him. We can only hope he gets really PHYSICALLY SICK.
What are you referring to? Republicans?
I am referring to the left side balancing the idiocy equation. The folks who defaced a statue of an abolitionist in Philadelphia in a somewhat unfocused iconoclastic rage. The brilliant minds attacking the cartoon dogs of “Paw Patrol” for presenting an unfashionably positive picture of the police. The New York Times firing it’s opinion editor for publishing an opinion. The soccer team firing a player for his wife’s tweets. Seattle’s “Autonomous District” declaring independence and begging for food. The legions of thought cops patrolling the web for heresies. The volunteer film censor corps.
There is no shortage of asinine autocrats claiming the power to arbitrarily punish anyone they imagine transgresses against their views.
I want people to express their thoughts. I want to know who they are. I reserve the right to react as I see fit - moderated by or taking the consequences of doing so.
I've always felt that way--I want to know whom to shun--but some of the speech I'm hearing is so vile and threatening that I can't help but wish the speaker had some nodding acquaintance with civility.
frugal-one
6-12-20, 2:29pm
I am referring to the left side balancing the idiocy equation. The folks who defaced a statue of an abolitionist in Philadelphia in a somewhat unfocused iconoclastic rage. The brilliant minds attacking the cartoon dogs of “Paw Patrol” for presenting an unfashionably positive picture of the police. The New York Times firing it’s opinion editor for publishing an opinion. The soccer team firing a player for his wife’s tweets. Seattle’s “Autonomous District” declaring independence and begging for food. The legions of thought cops patrolling the web for heresies. The volunteer film censor corps.
There is no shortage of asinine autocrats claiming the power to arbitrarily punish anyone they imagine transgresses against their views.
Starting at the top. How many people has trump fired because they did not agree with him?
[/B]
Starting at the top. How many people has trump fired because they did not agree with him?
I think there’s a difference between an executive firing a subordinate he doesn’t feel he can work with and demanding the cancellation of someone (cartoon or real) you don’t feel is conveying the message you would like him/her/it to convey.
Trump is an idiot, but he’s not the only idiot. Trump may dream of tyranny, but there are plenty of others wishing to serve up that same dish with a different garnish.
[/B]
Starting at the top. How many people has trump fired because they did not agree with him?
How many women has he called "nasty?" How many has he retaliated against for various reasons?
He's incapable of acting like a semi-civilized hominid, let alone like a president.
ApatheticNoMore
6-12-20, 4:51pm
So, if I was robbed or threatened or my child was missing or car broken into, etc., who would I call?
probably best to understand this from people actually advocating for this and look at actual proposals. Since very few on this forum do, not a lot of productive answers.
I don't advocate for it (or against it exactly), I don't understand it. Cred? Well I've gone to presentations on prison abolition (a bit different than defunding the police, but maybe some affinity) and merely tried to learn what I could, I mean I was open, and well I didn't fully understand it. But I have not gone to presentations on defunding the police. But for instance as for those who advocate it BLM has their one demand as "defund the police". How such calls actually seems to manifest locally is just a debate over funding priorities, which isn't going to fully defund police, but that's just here. We aren't exactly likely to implementing radical proposals (I mean it's blue enough, but hardly radical). But maybe they want much more than that.
I like real world examples a lot but most countries have police and some type of prisons, what they don't have is the massive prison population of the U.S. etc.. I understand why reform has become a dirty word, as we've been "reforming" the police for decades and nothing changes. I mean that part I understand, but that's a critique not a solution. Maybe they just do need to fire them all (including the union) and bring in new people with new polices. But that's not eliminating police entirely, it's starting over though.
Teacher Terry
6-12-20, 5:23pm
You would still call the police for those type of issues. They need a new name for this movement because people really think it means no more cops at all.
One has only to listen to a big-city police scanner for a few hours to grasp that most of their calls don't require an armed response. Again, most calls involve mental illness and/or drug dependence. "Defund the Police" is a movement to reallocate monies and institute genuine reforms. We need to ask ourselves why we find it necessary to incarcerate massive numbers of citizens.
I'm wondering if we will ever get to defund the military. That's a huge cost, and redirecting some of that money to UBI style foreign aid that bypasses corrupt governments might win friends and influence people abroad much better than endless wars in the Middle East. After all Black Lives Matter worldwide not just in the US.
“Defund the Police” seems to rapidly becoming one of those terms that the experts need to re-parse for us into more incremental “realignments of priorities”, lest voters think they are being asked to accept the slogan at face value. We are now expected to take it “seriously but not literally”.
iris lilies
6-13-20, 10:15am
“Defund the Police” seems to rapidly becoming one of those terms that the experts need to re-parse for us into more incremental “realignments of priorities”, lest voters think they are being asked to accept the slogan at face value. We are now expected to take it “seriously but not literally”.
I hear you, and yes that HAS worked for the President. Interesting that the lefties are recognizing that success and taking a page from it.
iris lilies
6-13-20, 10:16am
“Defund the Police” seems to rapidly becoming one of those terms that the experts need to re-parse for us into more incremental “realignments of priorities”, lest voters think they are being asked to accept the slogan at face value. We are now expected to take it “seriously but not literally”.
I hear you, and yes that HAS worked for the President. Interesting that the lefties are recognizing that success and taking a page from it.
Teacher Terry
6-13-20, 11:56am
Interesting that a few people on Facebook literally want to have no police. When I asked how that would work practically they linked me to 2 books. I am not going to read a entire book to know what they are talking about.
I hear you, and yes that HAS worked for the President. Interesting that the lefties are recognizing that success and taking a page from it.
Sort of the way various sides weasel phrases like “build the wall” or “all lives matter” into something different from the plain English meaning?
iris lilies
6-13-20, 1:20pm
Sort of the way various sides weasel phrases like “build the wall” or “all lives matter” into something different from the plain English meaning?
Well slogans are good, you have to admit.
frugal-one
6-13-20, 3:37pm
I hear you, and yes that HAS worked for the President. Interesting that the lefties are recognizing that success and taking a page from it.
What am I missing? I don't see any successes by trump?
iris lilies
7-3-20, 8:42pm
So this “defunding the police effort “ goes before the citizens of Minneapolis in the fall.
I’m glad the citizens have a chance to vote on it, that this is not a decision made exclusively by the city Council. And the citizens may well go for it , who knoWs?
I see lawsuits are blooming in Seattle from various parties damaged by their brief summer of love. Perhaps we will see some big settlements, although not of the sort Rob likes to anticipate.
I wonder what level of reduced police presence constitutes negligence on the part of city governments. Either in the opinions of the courts or the sentiment of the voters. Perhaps Minneapolis can show us.
frugal-one
7-4-20, 11:42am
What am I missing? I don't see any successes by trump?
Interestingly, in Madison "Defund the Police" was painted on State Street and "somebody" changed the u to e... Defend the Police....
iris lilies
7-4-20, 12:07pm
I see lawsuits are blooming in Seattle from various parties damaged by their brief summer of love. Perhaps we will see some big settlements, although not of the sort Rob likes to anticipate.
I wonder what level of reduced police presence constitutes negligence on the part of city governments. Either in the opinions of the courts or the sentiment of the voters. Perhaps Minneapolis can show us.
Do you mean that either way the taxpayers get stuck for the bill of these lawsuits? If they’re not paying for the malfeasance of Police as Rob fantasizes about, they have to pay for the lack of police presence in the Seattle safe space zone.
I just love the way the little guy is taking it on the chin no matter what. Not.
iris lilies
7-4-20, 12:16pm
In our own emasculation of the police department here in St. Louis, Our city attorney is up to her usual shenanigans.
Those of you who read headline news will recognize this image of a rich white couple pointing their guns at protesters in St. Louis.
3324
What’s special about this nationwide headline is that our city prosecutor is looking carefully into this situation to see what charges she can bring against this gun totin’ white couple. Because you know it got nationwide attention so she is all over that. What is not getting nationwide attention is that Protesters showed up on private property. It’s hard for some people to understand, but in St. Louis some of our turn-of-the-century streets are privately maintained, privately paid for and they are private property. It would be as though this mob opened my front gate and came up onto my porch.
But our city prosecutor is completely unable to prosecute Any of the rioters, looters
, and arsonists who shot policeman and set fire to my beloved Campbell house as well as completely destroying other buildings downtown via fire. But those other buildings I don’t care about, I care about the 200-year-old Campbell house.
Since St. Louis is a small town and we know everyone, my friend knows two people on that street who says this couple, the gun toting couple, were not very well liked. That is neither here nor there just local gossip.
Teacher Terry
7-4-20, 12:26pm
Have the people that destroyed your Campbell house been identified? If not that’s the reason. This white couple have been and should be prosecuted.
Have the people that destroyed your Campbell house been identified? If not that’s the reason. This white couple have been and should be prosecuted.
What charges do you think would be appropriate to bring against them?
iris lilies
7-4-20, 12:55pm
Have the people that destroyed your Campbell house been identified? If not that’s the reason. This white couple have been and should be prosecuted.
I don’t know if arsonists were identified, and I have been meaning to call Andy (Museum director) to find out. I will hear eventually anyway.
But the main point here is that our city prosecutor will not exert resources to prosecute any of the rioters/looters/arsonists hauled into jail.She says she lacks appropriate evidence. It is impossible for me to believe that out of all the people hauled in and charged, there is not a strong case against at least one of them.
This is about politics. Her public stance is she’s not going after rioters/looters/arsonists because she is catering to her constituents. Instead, she is spending her resources looking into charges against a couple who did, what, exactly to break the law? I’m sure Kim will find something to charge them with if she looks hard enough.
Teacher Terry
7-4-20, 1:47pm
It depends on state law. In some states it’s called brandishing and is illegal. If what they did is legal then they won’t be charged. They should have just stayed in their house. It could have turned into a tragedy.
It's not much of a castle if they had to go outside to protect it. That's not how they did it in the Middle Ages. >8)
iris lilies
7-4-20, 2:01pm
It depends on state law. In some states it’s called brandishing and is illegal. If what they did is legal then they won’t be charged. They should have just stayed in their house. It could have turned into a tragedy.
Since prosecution of most everything is based on the political, I am curious what you would do with the mob iwho
1) trespassed agressively
2) also “brandished weapons*”
You know very well that picking and choosing of cases to charge and prosecute is political, regardless of which party or who is in charge. That is nothing unique to ?Kim Hardener, our city prosecutor. What IS unique is the all out war she has declared on white people, white neighborhoods, cops, supporters of cops.
So, you would really use my tax dollars, given all of the other unprosecuted issues I talk about here, to go after this couple who stood on their own property, with their own (I assume) legally held firearms. Harming no one.
ok then.
* a newscaster tells about two men getting out of their cars, yelling at her, showing her their guns. Of course you’re not hearing this on main stream media because it doesn’t fit the popular narrative.
iris lilies
7-4-20, 2:02pm
It's not much of a castle if they had to go outside to protect it. That's not how they did it in the Middle Ages. >8)
oh honey, it is pretty much a castle.
oh honey, it is pretty much a castle.
It looks kinda like an armory from what I can see, but I'll take your word for it. :)
In My Opinion: Seems like two different things - yes, your prosecutor is wrong with why she is trying to pursue legal action and, yes, this couple was wrong - they should have stayed inside their house; looks like they were asking for trouble, not trying to prevent/avoid it.
iris lilies
7-4-20, 3:14pm
It looks kinda like an armory from what I can see, but I'll take your word for it. :)
It is a pretty Beaux Arts house mansion.
https://www.stlmag.com/design/a-decades-long-renovation-returns-a-midwestern-palazzo-to-it/
So, you would really use my tax dollars, given all of the other unprosecuted issues I talk about here, to go after this couple who stood on their own property, with their own (I assume) legally held firearms. Harming no one.
Some of the video I saw of the incident showed what looked like the couple pointing their firearms at other human beings. They weren't simply holding the firearms, or simply standing on their property.
Now, without the full context of the incident, one doesn't know if that is "brandishing", which is a crime most places, or something else.
iris lilies
7-4-20, 3:19pm
In My Opinion: Seems like two different things - yes, your prosecutor is wrong with why she is trying to pursue legal action and, yes, this couple was wrong - they should have stayed inside their house; looks like they were asking for trouble, not trying to prevent/avoid it.
well, I do think this couple is pretty silly and
i have hard time defending them, but neither do I want Ms. Gardener’s prosecuting respurces to go toward taking them down.
I would’ve for stayed in my house, most likely, although I might jave ventured out to watch the commotion. But then I don’t have fire arms as defense. That’s not my mindset.
Teacher Terry
7-4-20, 3:37pm
So if there’s video of 2 men pointing their guns at the couple either charge them all or charge no one. This is why I don’t live in a big crime ridden city. No tolerance for any of this crap.
It is a pretty Beaux Arts house mansion.
https://www.stlmag.com/design/a-decades-long-renovation-returns-a-midwestern-palazzo-to-it/
Good Lord.
iris lilies
7-4-20, 4:33pm
Good Lord.
It was built for a beer baron’s progeny. We take our beer barons seriously here in St. Louis.
My own neighborhood has two major houses built by the same beer empire, but Because its earlier generations, Houses are smaller more like 5000 ft.².
That shirt and pants on Mr. McCloskey are criminal.
That shirt and pants on Mr. McCloskey are criminal.
Seriously!
And you'd think people wealthy enough to live in that house would have better firearms, and some proper training. And maybe they could also afford some shoes.
Seriously!
And you'd think people wealthy enough to live in that house would have better firearms, and some proper training. And maybe they could also afford some shoes.
That chick has some seriously bad trigger discipline. I've got a better pistol than she does!
Well, that couple certainly are, ummmm, words actually fail me. I’ll just leave it with the fact that I’m very glad I’m not their neighbor and am unlikely to ever meet them.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/portland-place-couple-who-confronted-protesters-have-a-long-history-of-not-backing-down/article_281d9989-373e-53c3-abcb-ecd0225dd287.html
iris lilies
7-12-20, 10:14am
Well, that couple certainly are, ummmm, words actually fail me. I’ll just leave it with the fact that I’m very glad I’m not their neighbor and am unlikely to ever meet them.
https://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/portland-place-couple-who-confronted-protesters-have-a-long-history-of-not-backing-down/article_281d9989-373e-53c3-abcb-ecd0225dd287.html
This article confirms what Libby said, the McCloskeys are not well liked on their street.
And to be fair to the McCloskeys, they were not racially discriminating in their protective stance of their property. They discriminate against everyone including very rich white people who live next-door to them and on their block by chasing them off with guns as well. Not to mention filing lawsuits, lots and lots of lawsuits.
Seeing their lawsuit activity in this article I can’t help but think there’s going to be lawsuits emanating from the McCloskeys over this most recent incident. I don’t know who will be the target though. Maybe Lyda Krewson, mayor? Maybe the police department for not protecting their property? I doubt that our city’s prosecution department got any of the protesters names on record even though there is evidence that they commited property damage.
I have one final thought and that is to offer admiration and respect for the McCloskeys in the way they went after buying that giant mansion in 1985. Wow, that is some dedicated shit right there. You know I am all about old house love.
Teacher Terry
7-12-20, 11:59am
Wow they are truly horrible people.
gimmethesimplelife
8-8-20, 7:51pm
Rob, do you want to get rid of the police in Phoenix, too?
How will that look for crimes like rape, assault, and homocide?Maybe not 100% but given the Anti Human Rights/Anti Human Dignity/Entitled To Break Any Law They Please With No Consequence mentality of the Phoenix PD - on full international display with the Dollar Store Incident last year - I'd say in the spirit of saving human lives, there are many calls the Phoenix PD has proven time and time again that they are incompetent to take and also VERY unwise for them to take. I'm all for major defunding and this is my new activist home - The Defunding Movement.
I'm also agitating with others to get the police out of our schools to end the Evil School to Prison Pipeline. Rob
iris lilies
6-26-21, 1:45pm
Rob is too busy accumulating wealth, like the college educated privileged white man he is, to keep us updated on Bad Police in Minneapolis. TLDR Police still not “Defunded.”
NPR’s story that ran a few weeks ago:
Summary
After George Floyd's death, a majority of the Minneapolis City Council vowed to defund the police. Ten months later, it hasn't happened, but the debate about police reform in the city continues.
https://www.npr.org/2021/04/03/984145333/where-minneapolis-pledge-to-defund-the-police-stands-now
Another update to this thread - Mark McCloskey is running for US Senate.
iris lilies
6-26-21, 2:07pm
Another update to this thread - Mark McCloskey is running for US Senate.
Oh god, i know. Ugh. Fortunately he wont last long in the race.
Other than his house- love (saviour of important old piece of architecture) , i find him idiotic.
happystuff
6-26-21, 2:41pm
Saw this a while ago - not note-worthy, in my opinion.
Trying to extend his 15 minutes of negative fame.
iris lilies
6-26-21, 2:49pm
Saw this a while ago - not note-worthy, in my opinion.
Trying to extend his 15 minutes of negative fame.
very much like pur city prosecutor. The two deserve each other.
Unfortunately, my tax dollars have to pay for her little vendetta game against Mark McCloskey.
iris lilies
6-26-21, 3:05pm
Based on our city prosecutor’s record, I think Mr. M cCloskey is pretty safe.
https://www.kmov.com/news/records-show-trial-conviction-rate-for-circuit-attorneys-office-has-fallen-nearly-20-in-2/article_a1c0f8d2-5842-11ea-b7f6-d7598e1fc94e.html
Not only does she fail to prosecute many easily prosecutable cases, when she DOES go to court she loses.
If the recent NYC primary is an indication, it seems even New York Democrats are open to a law and order argument. People can make the connection between rising crime and prosecutors who refuse to prosecute various categories of crime and police quitting or retiring because they won’t put up with present environment.
A friend of mine from Minneapolis said that the police department wouldn’t be disbanded but some of the money would be redirected to social services/social workers, etc like it used to be. Programs have shrunk while the police force has decreased. So if a person is suicidal you don’t send a cop who is likely to make it worse. Some cities have crisis teams of cops and social workers in dangerous mental health situations. My friend thinks it’s a great idea.
Evanston, IL (I believe) has tried to hire several social workers to do just this. There have been
NO applicants. They will be calling social service agencies to see if there are any who will work with them on this. Heard it on the radio news earlier in the week.
Teacher Terry
6-26-21, 6:25pm
Tradd, it only works if you hire a crisis team. Plus not all social workers are crisis trained specifically in mental health. They need to look at cities that have been successful in this approach.
iris lilies
6-26-21, 6:34pm
Tradd, it only works if you hire a crisis team. Plus not all social workers are crisis trained specifically in mental health. They need to look at cities that have been successful in this approach.
i’m sure St. Louis has moved to this model because I’m now seeing reports from the emergency line autofeed as “crisis management team “dispatched to xxx address.I heard a good local NPR show on this topic some months ago. Apparently a few years ago St. Louis did work with a social worker model. It worked like this: cops arrived on the scene to assess the danger of the situation and then the social worker showed up very soon after if that’s the kind of call it was.
The cops could leave right away but the social worker stayed worked their soothing magic.
it all sounds good theoretically, I just imagine that these domestic and family and neighbor altercations would not die down permanently but would flare up throughout the service call. I just think of the crazy stuff I used to observe while working in my flower garden in our nearby neighborhood. The last street altercation I remember was all women and children and they were actually fighting physically and there must’ve been a dozen of them.
When I filed a missing persons report on DS and asked that they try to locate him and do a wellness check I would much have preferred a social worker do that task. The officer made some odd remarks. DS never wants his picture taken so I did not have a current photo. He asked if he looked radically different "like he converted to Islam and grew a huge beard". I don't think a social worker would be so rough around the edges and would be better suited to checking on people in crisis.
gimmethesimplelife
6-28-21, 8:43pm
Rob is too busy accumulating wealth, like the college educated privileged white man he is, to keep us updated on Bad Police in Minneapolis. TLDR Police still not “Defunded.”
NPR’s story that ran a few weeks ago:
Summary
After George Floyd's death, a majority of the Minneapolis City Council vowed to defund the police. Ten months later, it hasn't happened, but the debate about police reform in the city continues.
https://www.npr.org/2021/04/03/984145333/where-minneapolis-pledge-to-defund-the-police-stands-nowIL....IL....IL.....please. Seriously. After we lost Tammy and Maria did I not post that I would cease controversial and/or zip code referenced posts? Did I not do this voluntarily? Have I not followed through?
I AM making good.money and what's even more bizarre, I seem to be liked and even respected by a few co-workers. I have been saving all I can and have even had the chance to cross train to supervise in produce. I'm learning a lot and am challenged but not overwhelmed.
That all said, of course I have kept up with Minneapolis and it's LEO issues. I just don't want us to lose any more quality members so I will refrain from posting in regards to this topic here. Rob
iris lilies
6-28-21, 11:14pm
IL....IL....IL.....please. Seriously. After we lost Tammy and Maria did I not post that I would cease controversial and/or zip code referenced posts? Did I not do this voluntarily? Have I not followed through?
I AM making good.money and what's even more bizarre, I seem to be liked and even respected by a few co-workers. I have been saving all I can and have even had the chance to cross train to supervise in produce. I'm learning a lot and am challenged but not overwhelmed.
That all said, of course I have kept up with Minneapolis and it's LEO issues. I just don't want us to lose any more quality members so I will refrain from posting in regards to this topic here. Rob
Ok!
happystuff
6-29-21, 11:02am
IL....IL....IL.....please. Seriously. After we lost Tammy and Maria did I not post that I would cease controversial and/or zip code referenced posts? Did I not do this voluntarily? Have I not followed through?
I AM making good.money and what's even more bizarre, I seem to be liked and even respected by a few co-workers. I have been saving all I can and have even had the chance to cross train to supervise in produce. I'm learning a lot and am challenged but not overwhelmed.
That all said, of course I have kept up with Minneapolis and it's LEO issues. I just don't want us to lose any more quality members so I will refrain from posting in regards to this topic here. Rob
Efforts noted and appreciated, Rob. Glad to here the job is going so well! Congrats!
Teacher Terry
6-29-21, 12:12pm
Rob, that’s great news about your job!
About 70-75 people were shot last weekend in Chicago. Lots of officers have been retiring.
iris lilies
6-29-21, 2:27pm
Saw this a while ago - not note-worthy, in my opinion.
Trying to extend his 15 minutes of negative fame.
Grownups took over the McCloskey case and eliminated felony charges and came to a plea-bargain agreement with the lesser charges.There will be no show trial for the McCloskeys.
Re: thoughts about the media circus we have been denied from our funny old curmudgeon newspaper columnist:
“…All of this was in our future. We were going to be a happening place. Now that is gone.
Some of the blame belongs to Circuit Court Judge Thomas Clark III….He disqualified Kim Gardner (City Prosecutor) from handling the case because he said she had used the case for fundraising appeals. Pardon me, Judge, what was she supposed to use? A low conviction rate? A rising homicide rate? The nuts and bolts of the criminal justice system don’t excite many people. But a show trial moves the needle. She should have been allowed to use it in her fundraising…”
—Bill McClellan
it made me laugh
Grownups took over the McCloskey case and eliminated felony charges and came to a plea-bargain agreement with the lesser charges.There will be no show trial for the McCloskeys.
What were they going to be charged with?
What did they end up pleading to?
iris lilies
6-29-21, 3:54pm
What were they going to be charged with?
What did they end up pleading to?
I don’t know. I imagine the Google machine would reveal that.
OK I will cut you slack:
https://fox2now.com/news/special-prosecutor-appointed-in-case-of-gun-waving-couple-in-st-louis/
“
…the couple faces felony charges for unlawful use of weapons and tampering with physical evidence. They have pled not guilty….”
another article says :
ST. LOUIS — Mark and Patricia McCloskey, who waved guns at protesters last year who marched past the couple’s Central West End mansion, pleaded guilty Thursday to misdemeanors and agreed to give up their weapons.
Mark McCloskey, 64, will pay a $750 fine after pleading guilty to fourth-degree assault, a Class C misdemeanor (https://revisor.mo.gov/main/OneSection.aspx?section=565.056). Patricia McCloskey, 62, must pay a $2,000 fine after pleading guilty to second-degree harassment, a Class A misdemeanor (https://revisor.mo.gov/main/OneSection.aspx?section=565.091#:~:text=The). Mark McCloskey could have faced up to 15 days in jail; Patricia McCloskey could have spent up to a year behind bars. Neither will face jail time.
exactly which “unlawful use” law was broken is not clear from this article I found in a brief search.
headline news sources says an evidence tampering charge was dropped from the Mrs.
ToomuchStuff
6-29-21, 4:18pm
I don’t know. I imagine the Google machine would reveal that.
OK I will cut you slack:
https://fox2now.com/news/special-prosecutor-appointed-in-case-of-gun-waving-couple-in-st-louis/
“
…the couple faces felony charges for unlawful use of weapons and tampering with physical evidence. They have pled not guilty….”
another article says :
ST. LOUIS — Mark and Patricia McCloskey, who waved guns at protesters last year who marched past the couple’s Central West End mansion, pleaded guilty Thursday to misdemeanors and agreed to give up their weapons.
Mark McCloskey, 64, will pay a $750 fine after pleading guilty to fourth-degree assault, a Class C misdemeanor (https://revisor.mo.gov/main/OneSection.aspx?section=565.056). Patricia McCloskey, 62, must pay a $2,000 fine after pleading guilty to second-degree harassment, a Class A misdemeanor (https://revisor.mo.gov/main/OneSection.aspx?section=565.091#:~:text=The). Mark McCloskey could have faced up to 15 days in jail; Patricia McCloskey could have spent up to a year behind bars. Neither will face jail time.
exactly which “unlawful use” law was broken is not clear from this article I found in a brief search.
headline news sources says an evidence tampering charge was dropped from the Mrs.
I believe they were in for a brandishing verses stand your ground fight, since they were outside their house.
You are a brainwashed lot!!!! ;) That anyone would choose or consider it acceptable to brandish weapons on their front lawns at any time tells me the difference between the US and Canadian way of life.
iris lilies
6-29-21, 4:39pm
You are a brainwashed lot!!!! ;) That anyone would choose or consider it acceptable to brandish weapons on their front lawns at any time tells me the difference between the US and Canadian way of life.
Overgeneralizing.
That said, I looked deep within myself and really can’t find much reason to come to the defense of the McCloskeys. They seem unlikeable, one reason for bringing out their guns now and then for other altercations with neighbors. Not surprisingly, they are also lawsuit happy.
I believe in the State and County where I live it is perfectly legal for me to stand on my own land holding a loaded firearm, so long as I don't "brandish" it. "Brandish" doesn't mean "scares the tourists because they are afeared of guns".
So I was wondering what *precisely* they had been charged with. I didn't watch the video of their behaviour with any interest in the past - did they point those weapons at anyone? Or were they just standing there like poorly-trained munchkins?
iris lilies
6-29-21, 5:15pm
I believe in the State and County where I live it is perfectly legal for me to stand on my own land holding a loaded firearm, so long as I don't "brandish" it. "Brandish" doesn't mean "scares the tourists because they are afeared of guns".
So I was wondering what *precisely* they had been charged with. I didn't watch the video of their behaviour with any interest in the past - did they point those weapons at anyone? Or were they just standing there like poorly-trained munchkins?
I’m pretty sure at least one of them pointed a weapon at a human. At least, that is the crux of the matter that would have been decided in court. ?
In this photo it sure looks like they, or she, are/is pointing a gun at…something. But we cannot see from their viewpoint. Is it empty space they are pointing at?
3842
She's got really bad trigger discipline.
About 70-75 people were shot last weekend in Chicago. Lots of officers have been retiring.
I read somewhere that the Portland riot squad quit en masse.
I read somewhere that the Portland riot squad quit en masse.
I can't imagine wanting to be a law enforcement officer in today's world.
I can't imagine wanting to be a law enforcement officer in today's world.
Yes. Apart from the inherent dangers and stress of the job, they have to endure throttlebottoms pandering to the ninnyhammer mobs. I certainly couldn’t do it.
ToomuchStuff
6-29-21, 11:34pm
I believe in the State and County where I live it is perfectly legal for me to stand on my own land holding a loaded firearm, so long as I don't "brandish" it. "Brandish" doesn't mean "scares the tourists because they are afeared of guns".
So I was wondering what *precisely* they had been charged with. I didn't watch the video of their behaviour with any interest in the past - did they point those weapons at anyone? Or were they just standing there like poorly-trained munchkins?
He didn't point specifically at anyone, while his wife, pointed a weapon, that was a non functioning firearm (claimed it had been used in a trail, as evidence, and had the firing pin removed), at the crowd, with her finger on the trigger.
Unlawful use of a weapon and evidence tampering (disabling the gun), were what they were charged with.
happystuff
6-30-21, 10:48am
I can't imagine wanting to be a law enforcement officer in today's world.
I agree. It strikes me as being so sad - remembering as a kid being told if you need help, go find a police officer. Now, they don't know what to expect when approached and I don't know what to expect when approaching, and vice versa.
iris lilies
6-30-21, 11:44am
My interactions with police officers and their support systems havent changed.
happystuff
6-30-21, 11:56am
My interactions with police officers and their support systems havent changed.
I noticed a subtle little difference the last time we were pulled over a couple weeks ago, that had never happened before. When the officer approached the car, he first came onto the passenger side and shone his flashlight in. (I was in the passenger seat) In previous past instances, the officer always went directly to the driver side and looked in from that direction. Nothing big, just a little thing that stuck out in my mind and I totally understand why the difference!
If the recent NYC primary is an indication, it seems even New York Democrats are open to a law and order argument. People can make the connection between rising crime and prosecutors who refuse to prosecute various categories of crime and police quitting or retiring because they won’t put up with present environment.
And now apparently we don’t know that at all. They screwed up the vote counting and are starting over.
iris lilies
6-30-21, 12:10pm
I noticed a subtle little difference the last time we were pulled over a couple weeks ago, that had never happened before. When the officer approached the car, he first came onto the passenger side and shone his flashlight in. (I was in the passenger seat) In previous past instances, the officer always went directly to the driver side and looked in from that direction. Nothing big, just a little thing that stuck out in my mind and I totally understand why the difference!
I don’t understand the difference. Enlighten me. And I wouldn’t be extrapolating new police procedures based on one interaction with one police officer.
And now apparently we don’t know that at all. They screwed up the vote counting and are starting over.
Yes. I heard they managed to include many thousands of “test votes” in the initial count. I will be interested in seeing if they find some creative way to blame the Republicans. In any case, it won’t be surprising to see the losers question the legitimacy of the final result.
happystuff
6-30-21, 12:35pm
I don’t understand the difference. Enlighten me. And I wouldn’t be extrapolating new police procedures based on one interaction with one police officer.
I took it as he was doing a closer check of the passenger before heading around to the driver.
iris lilies
6-30-21, 12:49pm
Yes. I heard they managed to include many thousands of “test votes” in the initial count. I will be interested in seeing if they find some creative way to blame the Republicans. In any case, it won’t be surprising to see the losers question the legitimacy of the final result.
Our city recently changed to a system of top winners, not just one winner. I didn’t know how they were weighting those votes or if every vote in second choice and third choice counts the same as every vote in first choice? I guess any weighting would be complex.
We don’t have any Republicans here in my city to blame but the progressive as well most surely blame the whatever’s and they’re all Democrats.
Our city recently changed to a system of top winners, not just one winner. I didn’t know how they were waiting those votes or if every vote in second choice and third choice counts the same as every vote in first choice? I guess any waiting since it would be complex.
We don’t have any Republicans here in my city to blame but the progressive as well most surely blame the whatever’s and they’re all Democrats.
One problem they may have when the smoke clears in NYC is that exit polling indicates white voters were somewhat more likely to vote all five ranked choices while others were somewhat more likely to vote only once in the top spot. I’ve heard a a few pundits argue this could raise Voting Rights Act issues.
Teacher Terry
6-30-21, 1:30pm
Our police can be trigger happy so the last time I was pulled over I kept my hands high on the wheel. When they asked for my driver’s license I asked if it was okay to open the glove compartment. I am being more cautious but also routine traffic stops have ended in death for some officers so I am sure that makes them edgy also. What a mess in general.
I took it as he was doing a closer check of the passenger before heading around to the driver.
Isn't this so they don't get sideswiped by a passing vehicle? They are safer on the side of the road away from traffic than in the middle of the road. My guess is they would do this even if there were no passenger.
happystuff
6-30-21, 1:57pm
Isn't this so they don't get sideswiped by a passing vehicle? They are safer on the side of the road away from traffic than in the middle of the road. My guess is they would do this even if there were no passenger.
We were in a parking lot - off the road - and, after checking the passenger side, he walked around to the driver side.
happystuff
6-30-21, 1:59pm
Our police can be trigger happy so the last time I was pulled over I kept my hands high on the wheel. When they asked for my driver’s license I asked if it was okay to open the glove compartment. I am being more cautious but also routine traffic stops have ended in death for some officers so I am sure that makes them edgy also. What a mess in general.
Our police are not trigger happy - to my knowledge - but I agree that caution seems to exist on both sides now. A mess in general, but if the end result is that no one is getting hurt or killed - yay.
So I see there was an attempted armed robbery during a television interview of Oakland's Director of Violence Prevention. Fortunately they had armed security on hand to thwart the robbers. The City had recently reduced it's police budget, and redirected most of that funding to Violence Prevention.
https://www.nationalreview.com/news/robbers-hold-up-news-crew-interviewing-oakland-violence-prevention-head-in-front-of-city-hall/
ApatheticNoMore
6-30-21, 10:55pm
It seems destined to go nowhere. We need police, but there is also a need for police reform.
And why the U.S. has the largest prison population in the world (does that make us the safest country in the world? of course not) or close, has nothing to do with police per se, but has to do with long sentences for crime, longer than most other places, the old prison industrial complex.
Not to mention the fact that we do our best to insure that when prisoners get released they have litte hope of being successfully reintegrated into productive society so they have little choice but to immediately go back to a life of crime.
gimmethesimplelife
7-1-21, 10:13am
Efforts noted and appreciated, Rob. Glad to here the job is going so well! Congrats!Thank You, HS! I just feel so very blessed for once in regards to employment. Even at stressful times it's nothing like being in hospitality - I am finding grocery retail to be much more human. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
7-1-21, 10:14am
Rob, that’s great news about your job!Thank You, TT. Rob
iris lilies
7-2-21, 1:02am
Thank You, HS! I just feel so very blessed for once in regards to employment. Even at stressful times it's nothing like being in hospitality - I am finding grocery retail to be much more human. Rob
Man would I ever love an update on the grocery cart situation at your store Rob, but I’m sure I’ll never get that. I mean, how’s the management viewing removal of grocery carts these days?
gimmethesimplelife
7-2-21, 10:02am
Man would I ever love an update on the grocery cart situation at your store Rob, but I’m sure I’ll never get that. I mean, how’s the management viewing removal of grocery carts these days?You are asking for a comparison of apples to oranges here, IL, and I will calmly tell you why. The neighborhood I work in is not the same one I live in - demographically nor socioeconomically. The work neighborhood has a much higher median income and much higher rates of auto ownership. Pushing your groceries home from the store using the store's shopping cart was never an issue at this particular store - for the reasons given above.
So I don't know what to tell you, IL. Rob
Yes. I heard they managed to include many thousands of “test votes” in the initial count. I will be interested in seeing if they find some creative way to blame the Republicans. In any case, it won’t be surprising to see the losers question the legitimacy of the final result.
My understanding is that the Board Of Elections in NYC consists of 10 members: one Dem. and one Rep. from each of the five boroughs.
So it was a bipartisan screw up:)
What I was surprised to learn today was this: On five occasions, counties in NYC were subject to the preclearance requirement of Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act.
https://www.justice.gov/crt/jurisdictions-previously-covered-section-5
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