Log in

View Full Version : City vs Country Decision



LDAHL
6-23-20, 11:58am
I was wondering the other day if the events of the last six months or so have changed any minds on the best choice of domicile in favor of the country.

Does the Petri dish nature of dense populations, mass transit etc., raise new long-term health concerns? Does the latest rash of rioting, not to mention the more traditional commercially oriented crime cause much concern, especially in the light of city administrations seeming to appease or contextualize it? Will the switch to a greater degree of online shopping/work/education/culture gain any permanent traction?

A couple of years ago, before the more recent issues, we made the choice to relocate from a larger conurbation to a small city. Apart from family connections, we thought it was a reasonable compromise between a large city and true small town or rural living. I can’t say I regret it. We have most of the conveniences in a cleaner, safer, cheaper package than we had before. And the parking situation is excellent.

Teacher Terry
6-23-20, 12:05pm
The smallest I have lived was upstate New York in a town of 2k 5 minutes away from a town of 20k. Kenosha was the next smallest. My friends there go to Milwaukee or Chicago to do things. We walk the mile downtown to do things. During normal times we have a big event every weekend May through October. If you are introverted I could see the allure.

catherine
6-23-20, 12:16pm
I have had such peace of mind living on a rural island in Vermont. My kids have peace of mind knowing their parents are on a rural island in Vermont. The bonus is Burlington is only 30 minutes away so we don't that we're in the middle of nowhere.

We spent 35 years raising our kids in a NYC metro area bedroom community in New Jersey. It was very convenient to almost everything. It was kind of like small town living, but you knew you were near NY--New Jersey is the most densely populated state in the country, and the traffic proved it.

It worked for us then. Would I have chosen to raise them where I live now? I don't think so. Our first house was in a one horse town in Dutchess County, NY (Stormville). It was a nightmare getting people to work, school, soccer practice, train stations, shopping malls, church, light meals out. Moving to the Princeton NJ area was like waking up from a bad dream.

bae
6-23-20, 12:20pm
I think that it is handy to not be completely-back-of-beyond rural, but at the very least near a small village with access to some services and social activities. Ideally the small village would be within a reasonable range of a small city such as LDAHL mentions.

Rural and small-village situations have their own issues to deal with, they aren't the Promised Land that some city dwellers seem to believe. For instance, my county and small village have only a handful of law enforcement officers to cover the entire region, so at any given time on my 56 sq. mile island, there may be one officer on duty, and during 6 hours of the day there is nobody actively on-duty. We can't handle enforcement of our Covid restrictions - there aren't enough resources to do so. We couldn't handle any significant civil disorder with law enforcement. We also are "near enough" to major urban areas, even with the barrier of crossing the ocean, that "refugees" arrive here in large numbers, and swamp our resources.

I think the best approach, wherever you choose to live, is to have a good social network. People matter more than place, or resources.

sweetana3
6-23-20, 12:32pm
I do not want to live anywhere where I have to drive to everything I need. Did that in the suburbs of Raleigh NC. Never again. Now I live within the one mile circle of our downtown. Our little corner is like its own neighborhood with SFHs, condos, etc. I almost everything I would need within a 20 minute walk and if I want a new primary care doctor, one opened an office 4 houses away. Got at least 5 hospitals within a mile, a new fire station at the end of the street, etc.

I feel more comfortable with some activity going on around me even if only street traffic. Country living freaks me out.

LDAHL
6-23-20, 12:57pm
I think the best approach, wherever you choose to live, is to have a good social network. People matter more than place, or resources.

That is an important point. A couple of my brothers in law have farms in the area, which has worked out very well for us. Between them, they have more specialized equipment and tools than Batman, which has been very useful. And it is good to have a lot of people you can call on for support of various kinds, provided you are prepared to reciprocate when the opportunity presents itself.

bae
6-23-20, 1:00pm
I do not want to live anywhere where I have to drive to everything I need.

This is a big downside to where I live now. Much of what I need is obtainable at my local village. However, my house is ~6 miles away from the village. While that is walkable, it is quite a committment, especially with the 1200 foot elevation gain. I bike to/from quite frequently, that's also a bit of an effort.

Once you're in the village, everything is human-scale and walkable, but most folks are stuck using a car to get there.

About 20% of the population of the island lives within the boundaries of the village. Interestingly, the state Growth Management Act demands we plan for 50% of the population living there, to prevent "suburban sprawl", but very few people move to remote rural islands to live in town.

bae
6-23-20, 1:05pm
And it is good to have a lot of people you can call on for support of various kinds, provided you are prepared to reciprocate when the opportunity presents itself.

Having lived here over 20 years now, I have come to realize that my true wealth is in relationships and social capital. Any fantasies I had of being able to do everything myself, all the time, with my own resources, quickly evaporated upon arrival.

Stupid example: I needed a backhoe the other day for a couple of hours. In my previous mode of thinking, I would of course have had a large barn, filled with cool tools and toys, like backhoes. In truth, I use a backhoe about 1-2 days every 2-3 years. Silly to keep and maintain such an expensive thing. I know plenty of people who use backhoes nearly every day. I called one of them, and she came by to help out for a bit, then left me the backhoe for the rest of the day. I made pie as a thank-you.

pinkytoe
6-23-20, 1:35pm
If we can ever find a house in this mess, we have made the decision to move a smaller town (pop. around 25K). Not because of current events but just because I think it suits us better at this stage. It has all the basics (great grocery, big box hardware not far) and then some and is about 45 minutes from a huge city should we need that. Also much closer to family (2 hours drive time instead of 15) which will be nice. We have both investigated based on our interests and there are very active related volunteer groups (before the virus anyway). Here, we live in the middle of the city. I have grown tired of hearing sirens all the time, petty criminal activity, weird city government, homeless people, litter and the sound of constant traffic, ie big city stuff. I just want a quiet, peaceful place to grow old.

early morning
6-23-20, 1:39pm
We are the closest to "town living" now that I have ever been. We live just outside a small (600-ish) village. We're only 7 miles from town, though, on a main road. I tolerate it, but it's too close to too many people for me. That said, we can't do as much of our own repair/maintenance as we once could, and our funds are limited. Which is based on our life-choices, which were good ones for us, but others MMV, of course! Bae, you are right about social networks. For us they are mostly family based, and that family is shrinking rapidly. I had a raft of aunts/uncles/cousins and we all worked well together as needed, but most are older than we are and unable to help out the rest, or have died, and their kids, like our own, are not making the same type of family connections, for many reasons - distance being a major one. So we need to expand our social network, but honestly, DD and I are introverts, and DH is really good at ticking people off, so I don't think that will happen anytime soon. Or late, for that matter!:~) So to the original question - for us, no, there is no change in where we want to live. Our second child - who is NOT an introvert- lives in a large city, and while they would like to change cities, this crisis has not made them want to live in a smaller city or rural area. Same for other members of our immediate family - no one I know is second-guessing or thinking of changing their country/city/village living.

JaneV2.0
6-23-20, 1:50pm
I would never live in the country; the very thought depresses me. Or a very small town, for that matter, having lived in a burg of 300* souls as a child.

I might live in a medium-sized college or resort town, or possibly a quiet neighborhood in the city, or a high-rise in the middle of said city, but really, suburbs suit me.

jp1
6-23-20, 3:10pm
While the current health situation makes me glad I no longer live in a 250 sq foot tenement apartment in midtown manhattan I don't find our current urban living situation to be any more difficult than what I imagine it would be like to live somewhere less populous.

Neither SO nor I has lived in a single family home during adulthood. It's possible that we will at some point, but hopefully it will be relatively new and small so that it doesn't need much ongoing work/maintenance, and will hopefully be on a small lot that also requires relatively little upkeep. It would take a society ending change for us to want to live somewhere that's not reasonably urban and full serviced and at least partially walkable.

LDAHL
6-23-20, 3:26pm
Having lived here over 20 years now, I have come to realize that my true wealth is in relationships and social capital. Any fantasies I had of being able to do everything myself, all the time, with my own resources, quickly evaporated upon arrival.

Stupid example: I needed a backhoe the other day for a couple of hours. In my previous mode of thinking, I would of course have had a large barn, filled with cool tools and toys, like backhoes. In truth, I use a backhoe about 1-2 days every 2-3 years. Silly to keep and maintain such an expensive thing. I know plenty of people who use backhoes nearly every day. I called one of them, and she came by to help out for a bit, then left me the backhoe for the rest of the day. I made pie as a thank-you.

I have found it very helpful to exchange favors with my kinsmen because they are a lot more skilled with their gear than I am. I did more damage to my lawn with a wheelbarrow than he did with his Bobcat.

Tradd
6-23-20, 3:42pm
I know a number of Chicago urban dwellers who are in the process of looking for places in the burbs. They are all ages - from 20 somethings to empty nesters who moved into the city after their kids were out of the house. They want to not be at the mercy of public transit, have more shopping choices, less congestion. A few who are staying in the city are actually buying cars again after having gotten rid of them a few years ago.

jp1
6-23-20, 4:13pm
I have a number of friends of friends, no one I know personally, who have made the short term decision to leave San Francisco. They are all either no longer employed or can work remotely for the forseeable future and they rented, often in small roommate share situations. (Most people in California start with a one year lease that transitions to month-to-month after that, so it's easy for people to end their lease on one month's notice). Most of those people, though, intend to return once there's a covid vaccine, but just don't see the point of paying city rent at this time. Whether these people will in fact return probably depends on how long we remain in "Covid Normal".

Rogar
6-23-20, 5:06pm
There are amenity considerations and some of a person's pick comes down to personal choice, but when it comes to COVID-19 I'm not seeing any obvious advantages or disadvantages based only on rural vs. urban. I keep pretty close tabs on the various counties in my state since I have friends here and there. Basically the poverty stricken small towns away from the beaten path have done better by my estimate of infection rate, being proportionate to population. We have a few counties in small desolate farm counties that have zero reported cases. And similar sized towns in the touristy ski areas that have been the worst or even the epicenter of some infections. Or at least they were bad until all the restaurants and places to stay we closed to the influx of visitors from all over, including international. Then again, big urban centers like Chicago, San Francisco, or New York are just down right scary to me for number of reasons that include pandemics, riots and protests.

My state is one of the few states in the sun belt that have not had increases in hospitalizations or new cases, so far. And the protests in Denver were not so dramatic compared to the other big cities I've seen in the news.

Yppej
6-23-20, 5:17pm
No change for me.

dado potato
6-23-20, 7:02pm
In 1967 Felice and Boudleaux Bryant wrote "Rocky Top". They said city life was like being trapped like ducks in a pen.

SteveinMN
6-23-20, 10:18pm
We're staying here. We don't know anyone else who's planning to move away.

First, we're city folk, not country folk. Second, there are positives (for us, anyway) in the form of a more diverse social experience, many more cultural opportunities, and much better medical care. It will be far easier to be old and infirm here than in the country.

Beyond that, though, both DW and I believe we are stronger in an ensemble than we are separately. bae provided a good example of sharing. One next door neighbor is the one who can fix anything; we can cook or give him and his wife rides to the airport or medical appointments and we used to watch their dog (and they ours while we had her). If the lights were out here we would share refrigerated space, Wi-Fi, whatever. And it's not hard to expand that circle based on people each of us know throughout our little pocket of the world.

The interesting thing about the suburbs is their somewhat transient state. Many people opt to live in the 'burbs to avoid the drawbacks of the city while still being close to its amenities, cultural/medical options, etc. But a serious longer-term shift of people out of cities because of pandemics, riots, etc., will leave suburbs ... where? If the attractive parts of a city are no longer present, does the suburb either become New City Jr. to offer those thing or does it morph to being exurban/rural? Mind, I'm not knocking the choice to live in a suburb (I grew up in a suburb in the NYC metro and lived in the 'burbs for 15 years here before moving within city limits). Just ruminating on what a suburb becomes if/when its raison d'être hollows out.

happystuff
6-24-20, 8:49am
The more I think about it, the more I just don't know. Which I guess is one of the reasons I think about down-sizing to a mobile/movable home. If I don't like it where I am, I can try somewhere else. I know there are all kinds of both benefits and drawbacks, but this is my thinking at this point in time.

JaneV2.0
6-24-20, 10:17am
The suburbs I've lived in, like Beaverton, OR, and Bellevue, WA are thriving. But they're mature entities, and not exurbs.

iris lilies
6-24-20, 10:50am
In 1967 Felice and Boudleaux Bryant wrote "Rocky Top". They said city life was like being trapped like ducks in a pen.
That is silly, and untrue.

Gardnr
6-24-20, 3:58pm
Medium college town works for us. We're in a quiet mid-scale subdivision with multiple generations up and down several blocks. We have 3 immediate neighbors who are retired as am I (hubster in a few years) and we're all stayin' for life! Can't buy good neighbors. 6 miles to downtown and most of what we need over the course of a month is just 2 miles away.

dado potato
6-24-20, 7:57pm
Rocky Top lyrics:

I've had years of cramped-up city life
Trapped like a duck in a pen
All I know is it's a pity life
Can't be simple again.


I believe this really is the way Felice and Beaudleaux Bryant wrote the song.

Alan
6-24-20, 8:07pm
Rocky Top lyrics:

I've had years of cramped-up city life
Trapped like a duck in a pen
All I know is it's a pity life
Can't be simple again.


I believe this really is the way Felice and Beaudleaux Bryant wrote the song.
This is one of my special needs grandson's favorite songs. He has it on his iPhone and plays it full blast in my truck whenever we're going somewhere. I can attest that's the way the Osborne Brothers sing it.

catherine
6-24-20, 9:36pm
Speaking of Rocky Top type songs about fleeing city life, my favorite one is Elton John's Goodbye Yellow Brick Road:

So goodbye yellow brick road
Where the dogs of society howl
You can't plant me in your penthouse
I'm going back to my plough
Back to the howling, old owl in the woods
Hunting the horny-back toad
Oh, I've finally decided my future lies
Beyond the yellow brick road

I do agree that social capital is very, very important. We have SO much more here than we did in NJ.

jp1
6-25-20, 11:23am
Personally this song suits me better:

When you're alone, and life is making you lonely
You can always go
Downtown
When you've got worries, all the noise and the hurry
Seems to help, I know
Downtown
Just listen to the music of the traffic in the city
Linger on the sidewalk where the neon signs are pretty
How can you lose?

iris lilies
6-25-20, 1:21pm
Speaking of Rocky Top type songs about fleeing city life, my favorite one is Elton John's Goodbye Yellow Brick Road:

So goodbye yellow brick road
Where the dogs of society howl
You can't plant me in your penthouse
I'm going back to my plough
Back to the howling, old owl in the woods
Hunting the horny-back toad
Oh, I've finally decided my future lies
Beyond the yellow brick road

I do agree that social capital is very, very important. We have SO much more here than we did in NJ.
I’m glad that you’re experiencing that small town/country neighborliness.


We got a little bit of that in Hermann already, and I know we can build a wider social circle if we put a mind to it.The social institutions, and like mindedness, was something I was looking for when we settled on Hermann. A garden club, a historic preservation group, two historical sites, etc—this is the stuff that interests me.

Las for likemindedness—Just for instance—on our block there are at least 4 older houses where people have hired the same contractor to do major expansions to their house. Rather than move away from where they are, they’re spending money to retrofit their house, and that is seldom the smartest economic plan if you’re looking at recovering real estate costs. But that’s what we are doing because we like the location and like Our little old house. Hang the money!!!

Last week I drove through Elsah, Illinois. That is just about the cutest village in the entire state of Illinois. It sits on the Mississippi River. It has stone houses from the 1840s and 50s. It’s the closest thing our area has to a New England Village and it is as cute as many New England villages. Anyway, my heart is with Elsah, Illinois,! But I had to have a big thinK about buying one of those wonderful stone houses because – this is a tiny village of a few hundred people. The social institutions are long and center around the historic architecture and – the Christian science religion. It’s a Christian science community, set up by Christian science, Christian science folks live there, and they work at the College up the hill, Principia College (a Christian Science Institution.)


I can only imagine Elsah s an extremely insular CommuNity, difficult to break into. The other caveat is that weekenders buy houses in Elsah so some are not occupied full time which limits even more neighboring as an activity. But that is true for
hermann as well.

There are not coffee shops let along restaurants, there is a church, a Reading room, and a meeting hall.

In the end, Elsah is TOO twee for me. I am not that much of an introvert. I like to have people around I just don’t want to talk to them ha ha Ha ha ha

Teacher Terry
6-25-20, 2:06pm
It can take years to build close friendships and it isn’t always easy to find your tribe. We have a lot of close friends here and that’s extremely important.

Geila
6-25-20, 3:18pm
In the past, I couldn't imagine living anywhere other than the Bay Area. All my family moved out to smaller towns and tried to get me to follow. Nope. Loved it here. Now in my 50's, I'm ready for something small, maybe 100-150k pop. That's my idea of a small town. I could happily retire somewhere like that. Interestingly, the past 4 months have been very easy living in this large city. Everything easy to find and plentiful, medical care when needed, etc. Kind of like it used to be 25-40 years ago. Much less traffic on the roads. Now that we're starting to open up, the congestion is coming back too and it overshadows the benefits. For me anyway. Dh is a big city guy.