View Full Version : Sculpture Culture Warfare
I see AOC has struck another blow in the all-important capital statue clash, pointing to a graven image honoring Father Damien of Molokai and announcing “This is what patriarchy and white supremacist culture looks like!”
Damien spent his odious career serving the lepers of Molokai, eventually contracting the disease and dying of it. He was later made a Saint by the Catholic Church. Clearly a racist villain who needs to be erased from history.
As I understand it her objection is that there are not statues of indigeneous Hawaiians, not that Damien was a racist.
I just read what she wrote and it does make sense to me. Is this the only statue representing Hawaii in the capitol? If so, that's kind of dumb.
As I understand it her objection is that there are not statues of indigeneous Hawaiians, not that Damien was a racist.
Yes. She said she would have preferred a queen. Then she could have said “this is what royalty looks like!”
Yes. She said she would have preferred a queen. Then she could have said “this is what royalty looks like!”
You do not find Liliuokalani an historically significant person?
You do not find Liliuokalani an historically significant person?
If I had to pick one person who I would think would most importantly represent Hawaii in a group of state statues I would certainly pick her over Father Damien. While Father Damien himself was not a bad person as far as I know, and as mentioned, did much to care for people with leprosy, Liliuokalani would be a more appropriate choice. But instead we have a white guy born and raised on the other side of the planet, as if white guys are the only people who ever did anything historically important.
I just read what she wrote and it does make sense to me. Is this the only statue representing Hawaii in the capitol? If so, that's kind of dumb.
I recall seeing Kamehameha I there as well.
I like this Seekers song, I am Australian:
https://youtu.be/ZOlPCmFG2pc
I'd prefer my cultural references to be more inclusive, like that song. I think that is kind of what AOC was getting at.
If I had to pick one person who I would think would most importantly represent Hawaii in a group of state statues I would certainly pick her over Father Damien. While Father Damien himself was not a bad person as far as I know, and as mentioned, did much to care for people with leprosy, Liliuokalani would be a more appropriate choice. But instead we have a white guy born and raised on the other side of the planet, as if white guys are the only people who ever did anything historically important.
Oh I think I get her objection. But why is it necessary to go after the Saint simply because you want a different identity mix among the statuary? Why not just lobby for another statue? I think it’s because AOC’s brand of politics requires villains. For her purposes, it doesn’t matter if the image is Father Damien or Heinrich Himmler. Either would serve as a symbol of patriarchy and white supremacist culture. In her ideology, history, like beauty, is only skin deep.
Because suggesting a new statue without pointing out the white supremacy that went into the decision resulting in the current statue kind of misses the whole point of pointing out the white supremacy that is so deeply embedded in our society that a lot of people fail to notice it.
Just a couple of weeks ago I was completely appalled by the AOC news du jour about Yoho's verbal attack on her. I think she handled it beautifully, as her remarks on C-SPAN attest.
AOC has three strikes against her before she even gets out of the dugout. 1. she's young. 2. she's female. 3. she's Hispanic.
I couldn't count the really vile remarks I see on FB about her--remarks that have nothing to do with her politics. It's as if her election and her work and her life mean nothing--everyting she has done is negated by the circumstances of her birth. I have heard many males, family members included, call her dumb, dismiss her election to Congress, and use the same language Yoho used to describe her.
So that is the frame of reference from which she has come to view the culture--one in which male successes make them a saint and earn them statues and one in which female successes make them reviled, or even worse, invisible.
I know you males don't agree with me, but there it is. Shirley Chisholm (who had two strikes against her) said that in her life she was far more discriminated against on the basis of her gender than her race.
Because suggesting a new statue without pointing out the white supremacy that went into the decision resulting in the current statue kind of misses the whole point of pointing out the white supremacy that is so deeply embedded in our society that a lot of people fail to notice it.
I guess if you're going to cancel 250,000,000 or so people based on their skin color, you gotta start somewhere.
I guess if you're going to cancel 250,000,000 or so people based on their skin color, you gotta start somewhere.
I just checked on wikipedia. You can still read all about Father Damien there. And all the civil war traitors that have been falsely honored with statues all these years. No cancellation has happened to them.
I just checked on wikipedia. You can still read all about Father Damien there. And all the civil war traitors that have been falsely honored with statues all these years. No cancellation has happened to them.I wonder if 10 years from now this will be proven false?
I know that after travelling all over this country one site I've never gotten around to is Stone Mountain in Georgia. We're thinking about heading that way soon just so we can see it before it's blown to hell. I'm curious to know if that makes me an evil racist traitor sympathizer or just a guy who'd like to see something neat before it's gone?
I wonder if 10 years from now this will be proven false?
How much money are you willing to place on that happening? I'll happily take you up on that bet.
iris lilies
8-1-20, 12:10pm
I recall seeing Kamehameha I there as well.
Yes. This Hawaiian King is also there, one of two statues chosen and donated by Hawaiians to represent their state.
I had to read up on the Hall of Statuary.. The Hall of Statuary is a conceptual Hall, having expanded over decades due to overcrowding. Statues are now placed all over the Capitol grounds due to crowding in statuary hall. Each state is allowed two.
My take on this is: while Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has a general point, specifically it’s none of her damn business what the state of Hawaii chooses to submit as a statue to represent themselves. Until she becomes an elected official of the state of Hawaii, she needs to tend to business for her own state. I think it’s nice that AOC and Trump and etc. have time to quack on about things irrelevant to their job.
For the purpose of this topic, a gloss is needed for anyone reading up on it:
AOC =Alexandria Ocasio- Cortez
AOC= Architect of the Capital, the bureaucrat in charge of Statuary Hall
Both are players in this game, And the acronym AOC is used interchangeably in articles about this issue.
How much money are you willing to place on that happening? I'll happily take you up on that bet.Sorry, I don't gamble. I learned my lesson as a new Airman in the Air Force (probably before you were born). We were paid once per month and there were always a few poker and blackjack games going on in the barracks on payday. I lost two paychecks in a row and decided I wouldn't do that again, and I haven't.
iris lilies
8-1-20, 12:21pm
Here in the epicenter of Ferguson wokeness, My city is putting up a new piece of statuary that references the struggle of African Americans in slavery. We already have a very important reference point in that piece of history, the courthouse where Dredd Scott was determined to be property. That was a landmark case.
I don’t have a problem with this new piece of statuary. I don’t even have a problem with Removing a piece of statuary recently from a city park, a statue commemorating confederacy soldiers, bought and erected by their daughters more than 100 years ago. I think public art has its time, and can wane in importance, Or can become irrelevant which is as bad as becoming offensive.
So I am OK with public art going up, and coming down. In our recent case, the statue in question found a home and will be cared for.
But I am dreading an attack on George Washington in my local neighborhood park which is an important piece of statuary. It is one of seven casts of the original Houdon sculpture that stands in Virginia’s statehouse. We have spent real money to restore parts of it.
Just a couple of weeks ago I was completely appalled by the AOC news du jour about Yoho's verbal attack on her. I think she handled it beautifully, as her remarks on C-SPAN attest.
AOC has three strikes against her before she even gets out of the dugout. 1. she's young. 2. she's female. 3. she's Hispanic.
I couldn't count the really vile remarks I see on FB about her--remarks that have nothing to do with her politics. It's as if her election and her work and her life mean nothing--everyting she has done is negated by the circumstances of her birth. I have heard many males, family members included, call her dumb, dismiss her election to Congress, and use the same language Yoho used to describe her.
So that is the frame of reference from which she has come to view the culture--one in which male successes make them a saint and earn them statues and one in which female successes make them reviled, or even worse, invisible.
I know you males don't agree with me, but there it is. Shirley Chisholm (who had two strikes against her) said that in her life she was far more discriminated against on the basis of her gender than her race.
I voted for Shirley Chisholm, and I remember her saying that. Ocasio-Cortez is often dismissed as being "dumb," which is mind-boggling to me, as I doubt the men criticizing her have remotely achieved what she has. Stupid men feel threatened apparently, by women and POC who are clearly worlds ahead of them.
In Boston controversy is swirling about a statue of Lincoln:
https://boston.cbslocal.com/2020/06/12/abraham-lincoln-statue-boston-mayor-walsh/
Just a couple of weeks ago I was completely appalled by the AOC news du jour about Yoho's verbal attack on her. I think she handled it beautifully, as her remarks on C-SPAN attest.
AOC has three strikes against her before she even gets out of the dugout. 1. she's young. 2. she's female. 3. she's Hispanic.
I couldn't count the really vile remarks I see on FB about her--remarks that have nothing to do with her politics. It's as if her election and her work and her life mean nothing--everyting she has done is negated by the circumstances of her birth. I have heard many males, family members included, call her dumb, dismiss her election to Congress, and use the same language Yoho used to describe her.
So that is the frame of reference from which she has come to view the culture--one in which male successes make them a saint and earn them statues and one in which female successes make them reviled, or even worse, invisible.
I know you males don't agree with me, but there it is. Shirley Chisholm (who had two strikes against her) said that in her life she was far more discriminated against on the basis of her gender than her race.
I'm a woman and I think AOC is dumb. She makes stupid statements and seems to just be freaking clueless how gov't works.
Iris, some IL politician, think it's a state rep (but not sure off the top of my head) thinks that all American history should be stopped being taught in school until textbooks and curricula are revised.
Can't find an article on it, but it was on the radio yesterday and this morning.
Yes. This Hawaiian King is also there, one of two statues chosen and donated by Hawaiians to represent their state.
I had to read up on the Hall of Statuary.. The Hall of Statuary is a conceptual Hall, having expanded over decades due to overcrowding. Statues are now placed all over the Capitol grounds due to crowding in statuary hall. Each state is allowed two.
My take on this is: while Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez has a general point, specifically it’s none of her damn business what the state of Hawaii chooses to submit as a statue to represent themselves. Until she becomes an elected official of the state of Hawaii, she needs to tend to business for her own state. I think it’s nice that AOC and Trump and etc. have time to quack on about things irrelevant to their job.
For the purpose of this topic, a gloss is needed for anyone reading up on it:
AOC =Alexandria Ocasio- Cortez
AOC= Architect of the Capital, the bureaucrat in charge of Statuary Hall
Both are players in this game, And the acronym AOC is used interchangeably in articles about this issue.
WORD!
Sorry, I don't gamble. I learned my lesson as a new Airman in the Air Force (probably before you were born). We were paid once per month and there were always a few poker and blackjack games going on in the barracks on payday. I lost two paychecks in a row and decided I wouldn't do that again, and I haven't.
I’m not much of a gambler either. The last time I did so was when changing planes in Las Vegas. I had two quarters in my wallet. I put them in a slot machine and won $6. I scooped them into a cup and went to the nearest bar and bought myself a jumbo beer. Back when $6 was enough to pay for a jumbo beer and tip in an airport bar. I might be a bit older than you think I am...
I’m not much of a gambler either. The last time I did so was when changing planes in Las Vegas. I had two quarters in my wallet. I put them in a slot machine and won $6. I scooped them into a cup and went to the nearest bar and bought myself a jumbo beer. Back when $6 was enough to pay for a jumbo beer and tip in an airport bar. I might be a bit older than you think I am...
That lesson learned was in 1973.
When I said I haven't gambled since that wasn't quite true. A couple of years ago we were on a west coast RV trip and on our return home we spent the night in Reno NV. There was a casino nearby which had the closest restaurant to our campsite. We went for dinner and before leaving decided to try our hands at the slots. I put in my $20 and was broke again within minutes. My wife put in her $20 and immediately went up $106.00. She promptly hit the cash out button, collected her winnings and we left. Total gambling time was less than 10 minutes, but dinner was free and she had a few dollars more upon leaving than when we arrived.
iris lilies
8-1-20, 3:10pm
That lesson learned was in 1973.
When I said I haven't gambled since that wasn't quite true. A couple of years ago we were on a west coast RV trip and on our return home we spent the night in Reno NV. There was a casino nearby which had the closest restaurant to our campsite. We went for dinner and before leaving decided to try our hands at the slots. I put in my $20 and was broke again within minutes. My wife put in her $20 and immediately went up $106.00. She promptly hit the cash out button, collected her winnings and we left. Total gambling time was less than 10 minutes, but dinner was free and she had a few dollars more upon leaving than when we arrived.
This is how I feel about my investment portfolio. I’ve been playing it for 35 years, things are good, I wanna cash out.
I think slots are boring and I don’t see how anybody can sit there hour after hour doing it. However ! I CAN understand gambling addiction because I had just a hint of it decades ago. We were traveling I think to Florida? Don’t remember exactly it was somewhere south of here and there was an open air bar/restaurant that has some kind of game going on. I really do not remember the specifics of the game,But I remember being absolutely taken with it, spending time there, then going there after dinner, and even going out the next morning skipping breakfast to play. Creepy.
I can also see how blackjack could be interesting although I’ve not played.
I can also see how blackjack could be interesting although I’ve not played.I love the game, but that's how I lost 2 paychecks in a row 47 years ago. Loving it apparently doesn't require you to be good at it.
That lesson learned was in 1973.
When I said I haven't gambled since that wasn't quite true. A couple of years ago we were on a west coast RV trip and on our return home we spent the night in Reno NV. There was a casino nearby which had the closest restaurant to our campsite. We went for dinner and before leaving decided to try our hands at the slots. I put in my $20 and was broke again within minutes. My wife put in her $20 and immediately went up $106.00. She promptly hit the cash out button, collected her winnings and we left. Total gambling time was less than 10 minutes, but dinner was free and she had a few dollars more upon leaving than when we arrived.
A year or so before my big Vegas win I had gone with my parents to check out the new casinos in Blackhawk Colorado. I had budgeted $20 to lose, but after half an hour I was ahead $15 so I quit. After my mom finally lost the last of the $20 she had budgeted I used my winnings to treat my parents to lunch at Subway and we went home. Not quite as nice as your dinner I'm sure! Considering that my two gambling experiences were wins (not counting the occasional megamillions ticket when the jackpot gets into the several hundred millions) it's kind of interesting that I haven't ever wanted to go try my luck again. Now if I am in a casino, which only happens if someone I'm with wants to go, I just watch.
And I was definitely alive in 1973. I'm old enough to have been absolutely riveted to the news reports about the Patty Hearst trial on Walter Cronkite every night.
iris lilies
8-1-20, 4:07pm
A year or so before my big Vegas win I had gone with my parents to check out the new casinos in Blackhawk Colorado. I had budgeted $20 to lose, but after half an hour I was ahead $15 so I quit. After my mom finally lost the last of the $20 she had budgeted I used my winnings to treat my parents to lunch at Subway and we went home. Not quite as nice as your dinner I'm sure! Considering that my two gambling experiences were wins (not counting the occasional megamillions ticket when the jackpot gets into the several hundred millions) it's kind of interesting that I haven't ever wanted to go try my luck again. Now if I am in a casino, which only happens if someone I'm with wants to go, I just watch.
And I was definitely alive in 1973. I'm old enough to have been absolutely riveted to the news reports about the Patty Hearst trial on Walter Cronkite every night.
I was a defender of Patty Hearst then and now. Girl was tortured and brain washed.she didn’t sign up to be a Vietcong prisoner like stock John McCain and I wouldn’t expect it of her.
And I was definitely alive in 1973. I'm old enough to have been absolutely riveted to the news reports about the Patty Hearst trial on Walter Cronkite every night.I appeared on the CBS Evening News with Walter Cronkite in 1974. On April 3rd, 1974 the midwest was ravaged by tornadoes and one pretty much demolished the town of Monticello Indiana near where I was stationed at the time. Members of my Security Police unit were allowed to volunteer to respond to the city immediately following and help go through demolished buildings looking for survivors while also providing generators, portable lights, water, etc. (Federal troops working in a civilian community! OH MY!!) A CBS news crew arrived and filmed myself and several others working in the rubble and I was interviewed. That footage appeared on Walter Cronkite's show the next evening. I called my mother ahead of time and told her to watch, but she forgot. >:( But maybe you saw me.
AOC is not dumb. She is taking on the powers that have ruled us for over 200 years. She’s brilliant.
I appeared on the CBS Evening News with Walter Cronkite in 1974. On April 3rd, 1974 the midwest was ravaged by tornadoes and one pretty much demolished the town of Monticello Indiana near where I was stationed at the time. Members of my Security Police unit were allowed to volunteer to respond to the city immediately following and help go through demolished buildings looking for survivors while also providing generators, portable lights, water, etc. (Federal troops working in a civilian community! OH MY!!) A CBS news crew arrived and filmed myself and several others working in the rubble and I was interviewed. That footage appeared on Walter Cronkite's show the next evening. I called my mother ahead of time and told her to watch, but she forgot. >:(
I undoubtedly saw that, since I watched consistently every night as my mom was washing the dishes and I was not eating my now cold vegetables. (I had already figured out by the age of seven that ultimately she cared more about washing ALL the dishes than she did about me eating my vegetables so I just had to wait her out.😀). However, you must not have been as fascinating as Patty Hearst because I have no recollection of your appearance.
I love the game, but that's how I lost 2 paychecks in a row 47 years ago. Loving it apparently doesn't require you to be good at it.
I don't gamble either, but I partially put myself through college at the blackjack tables in Atlantic City.
Then again, I majored in statistics, and have a near-photographic memory, so it wasn't *exactly* gambling.
Hmmm, I'll bet they'd let me back in now, surely they've forgotten....
However, you must not have been as fascinating as Patty Hearst because I have no recollection of your appearance.
That's ok, all Federal goons look pretty much alike anyway, especially in the midst of fires and destruction, it's hard to stand out.
Hmmm.
Both Hawaii statues were sent there by the State of Hawaii. Which is only ~25% white. The Hawaiian state legislature seems to only have 22% white membership.
So, who was it who decided to send those statues?
Hmmm.
Both Hawaii statues were sent there by the State of Hawaii. Which is only ~25% white. The Hawaiian state legislature seems to only have 22% white membership.
So, who was it who decided to send those statues?
No one said those white supremacists weren’t diabolically clever. They can influence people at the cellular level without their even being aware of it.
Hmmm.
Both Hawaii statues were sent there by the State of Hawaii. Which is only ~25% white. The Hawaiian state legislature seems to only have 22% white membership.
So, who was it who decided to send those statues?I really and truly do love seeing contextual reasoning used in any discussion. It's a breath of fresh air, thank you.
Here is a list of the statues:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sculptures_in_the_National_Statuary_Hall_C ollection
I counted just 7 women.
Hawaii's statues were installed in 1969. I do not know what the racial composition of their state legislature was at that time.
It is possible to change these since Michigan put Gerald Ford in during 2011.
Thanks for a very interesting link-- there are several new statues coming in, as I guess this editing process is ongoing, with Johnny Cash replacing James Paul Clarke and Amelia Earhart replacing John James Ingalls.
Fascinating.
As of 2018, women made up 28.9 percent of the Hawaii state legislature, and I believe AOC's comments were directed at the lack of representation of females in the statuary. So make sure to factor that in to your "breath of fresh air context."
happystuff
8-2-20, 10:56am
I don't gamble either, but I partially put myself through college at the blackjack tables in Atlantic City.
Then again, I majored in statistics, and have a near-photographic memory, so it wasn't *exactly* gambling.
Hmmm, I'll bet they'd let me back in now, surely they've forgotten....
LOL - that's great!
iris lilies
8-2-20, 2:01pm
Thanks for a very interesting link-- there are several new statues coming in, as I guess this editing process is ongoing, with Johnny Cash replacing James Paul Clarke and Amelia Earhart replacing John James Ingalls.
Fascinating.
And this is as it should be, public art changing itself out to be relevant.
Johnny Cash is an...interesting choice. But the choice of his state, so be it.
I'm all for an Amelia Earhart statue!
iris lilies
8-2-20, 9:46pm
I'm all for an Amelia Earhart statue!
That thief! No I dont think so!
haha.
My friend relates this story: Ameria Earhart stayed with his family (maybe grandfather? ) in a town in Illinois before her flight. She was their guest. When she left, a towel was missing.
A story for generations is worth the price of a towel.
Maybe we should come up with another way to honor "heroes" of either sex. Statues seem like something from another era. Plant a tree?
Maybe we should come up with another way to honor "heroes" of either sex. Statues seem like something from another era. Plant a tree?
I can picture AOC pointing to an elm and exclaiming “This is what patriarchy and white supremacist culture looks like! Plus we need to rake all those racist leaves!”
I can picture AOC pointing to an elm and exclaiming “This is what patriarchy and white supremacist culture looks like! Plus we need to rake all those racist leaves!”
Well, if Hawaii is represented by that instead of a candlenut tree she will have a point.
I can picture AOC pointing to an elm and exclaiming “This is what patriarchy and white supremacist culture looks like! Plus we need to rake all those racist leaves!”
So are you offended by the prospect of Fr. Damien being replaced by someone else, because of who Fr. Damien was, and all the good he did for the lepers? Are you offended by the prospect of more states replacing statues with statues of women?
I get that you are mocking what she is saying, but what about this situation makes you mock her? What is unacceptable to you here?
I think you can be amused and/or concerned by the whole racist, white patriarchy, cancel histrionics thing without being bothered by statues of women, but I'm not sure these days you can do so without having your motivations questioned.
So are you offended by the prospect of Fr. Damien being replaced by someone else, because of who Fr. Damien was, and all the good he did for the lepers? Are you offended by the prospect of more states replacing statues with statues of women?
I get that you are mocking what she is saying, but what about this situation makes you mock her? What is unacceptable to you here?
Alan had it right. Not so much offended as amused that someone would point to a memorial of an exemplary human being as an expression of racism and sexism. That someone would be so ideologically addled that they believe honoring the past is a zero sum game that requires tearing down one to elevate another. That someone would be so profoundly silly as to declare “this is what something looks like “when it clearly looks nothing of the sort, and expects thinking people to accept it.
iris lilies
8-3-20, 3:07pm
Although to be fair in this specific case, the Washington D.C. bureaucrats HAVE made the Hall of Statuary a zero sum game. Only 2 commemerative statues allowed by each state.
Yes, the list of new statues coming in is fascinating to me-- so I checked out the statute that the Johnny Cash statue is replacing, from Wikipedia:
"Clarke was elected Attorney General of Arkansas and served from 1892 to 1894. He served as Governor of Arkansas from 1895 to 1897.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Paul_Clarke#cite_note-2) Clarke was devoted to "upholding white supremacy as the keystone of the Democratic Party. 'The people of the South,' he said in his closing speech of the election, 'looked to the Democratic party to preserve the white standards of civilization.' Clarke easily defeated his opponents."[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Paul_Clarke#cite_note-3)"
So yeah, I'd take Johnny Cash any day over Gov. Clarke. And I'm not even from Arkansas. . .
On the other hand, the Belgian Fr. Damien has always been an inspiration to me.
Yes, the list of new statues coming in is fascinating to me-- so I checked out the statute that the Johnny Cash statue is replacing, from Wikipedia:
"Clarke was elected Attorney General of Arkansas and served from 1892 to 1894. He served as Governor of Arkansas from 1895 to 1897.[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Paul_Clarke#cite_note-2) Clarke was devoted to "upholding white supremacy as the keystone of the Democratic Party. 'The people of the South,' he said in his closing speech of the election, 'looked to the Democratic party to preserve the white standards of civilization.' Clarke easily defeated his opponents."[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Paul_Clarke#cite_note-3)"
So yeah, I'd take Johnny Cash any day over Gov. Clarke. And I'm not even from Arkansas. . .
On the other hand, the Belgian Fr. Damien has always been an inspiration to me.
And yet the Democratic Party is more popular than ever, still attempting to cancel, or perhaps just diminish, everyone but themselves. I'm a fan of irony but I still have trouble wrapping my head around that one. Favorable PR I guess.
Me, too. These statues seem to be something of pr for the states themselves. Times change, and how we want to present ourselves changes, I guess. But the statues are not some monolithic cultural statement by the federal government, that's for sure. So why not complain to Arkansas about the Clarke statue?
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