View Full Version : Further Erosion of Individual Liberties
I predicted this. The governor of my state, a wealthy former health care executive, is not satisfied with covid restrictions. To make more money for his preferred sector of the economy he is now mandating all students from daycare through college get the flu vaccine this year, with exceptions only for medical and religious reasons, not philosophical objections. As we all know these vaccines can cause the flu albeit a milder case, and are often only about 30% effective. But those in government who get power do not want to give it up, they want to get more. Discussions of eliminating some of the proliferating Federal cabinet departments have also gone away on both sides of the aisle, as another example. It is grow, grow, grow the bureaucracy and the regulations.
ETA as with covid the flu has a heavier impact on older people but he will not mandate teachers get the vaccine because he is scared of the teachers union.
Teacher Terry
8-19-20, 7:46pm
I think this is bullshit as you have to get it yearly and some years it’s not very effective.
frugal-one
8-19-20, 8:06pm
Your governor is full of it. As far as the Feds..... there are too many regs that have been eliminated that ARE needed. Say what you want. It has gone over to the other side. An example being... cutting regs to safeguard our drinking water.
As we all know these vaccines can cause the flu albeit a milder case, and are often only about 30% effective.
We don't all know that, including the CDC. The vaccine effectiveness varies year to year and is often greater than 50%.
I don’t have the energy to argue. But I agree with this policy of requiring flu vaccines. Just so you all on this thread hear from a nurse on this topic.
Vaccines are one of the biggest miracles of modern medicine. I will continue to get the flu vaccine every year. And once a covid vaccine is available to me I will run, not walk, to the doc’s office or pharmacy to get it.
Since the profit margin from vaccines is actually lower than other pharmaceuticals, Big Pharma would make lots more money if they got out of the vaccine business altogether, and just sold drugs to fight the diseases the vaccines prevent. Instead, puublic health departments everywhere are trying their best to manage COVID, which may be worse in the fall/winter. If so, reducing the possibility of flu is a good strategy, since flu and corona virus symptoms are so similar. Imagine getting a bad case of flu (which causes between 12,00-60,000 deaths per year in the U.S.) AND CV-19 at the same time! This policy decision is at least based on science, logic, and a desire for the common good. I am thinking of getting the flu shot early this year, and then repeating in a 3 or 4 months, to give me as much protection as possible this winter...since it's absolutely impossible to get the flu from a killed virus.
I don’t have the energy to argue. But I agree with this policy of requiring flu vaccines. Just so you all on this thread hear from a nurse on this topic.
Google "nurses protest mandatory flu shot" and you will see that nurses around the country have objected to getting the shot. Here is a story from my state:
https://www.wcvb.com/article/workers-protest-hospital-s-mandatory-flu-shot-policy/12481684
Google "nurses protest mandatory flu shot" and you will see that nurses around the country have objected to getting the shot. Here is a story from my state:
https://www.wcvb.com/article/workers-protest-hospital-s-mandatory-flu-shot-policy/12481684
No one said all nurses are smart.
I got the flu shot for the first time last year and I still got sick. Unless forced to by my employer, which I doubt will happen, I am not getting it this year. I was planning to get it later in the season when I felt it would better protect me, but now I will not since I do not like the governor forcing it on people.
I will continue to consider which vaccines/pharmaceuticals* I'm willing to take. I'm convinced flu vaccines are basically placebos; some are likely more effective than others. I've said before that I think we're way over-medicated in this country--probably because medicine is way over-profitized in this country. Your body, your choice--or it should be.
*So far, basically aspirin and alternatives.
Teacher Terry
8-20-20, 10:41am
I wonder if this will hold up if someone takes them to court. My kids had all their vaccines but this is definitely overreaching.
The other thing to consider is all the millions of people who will get the flu and as soon as they have a fever will run out to get a covid test. We're already struggling mightily to have adequate testing for covid. I we add in a lot of people who just have the flu that problem will only get worse. For that reason this policy makes sense.
The other thing to consider is all the millions of people who will get the flu and as soon as they have a fever will run out to get a covid test. We're already struggling mightily to have adequate testing for covid. I we add in a lot of people who just have the flu that problem will only get worse. For that reason this policy makes sense.
If they're observing proper COVID protocols, they shouldn't be getting the flu, should they? I would expect fewer flu infections this year.
Remember, Trump said we were doing too many tests, so I guess the government isn't buying any.
ApatheticNoMore
8-20-20, 11:33am
If they're observing proper COVID protocols, they shouldn't be getting the flu, should they? I would expect fewer flu infections this year.
Yea it's why I've never really understood the predictions of covid getting worse in the fall (it could of course continue to be the existing level of bad).
Because flu? It will probably be a season with less flu because of social distancing AND increased flu shots (these things were starting to get scarce for last years flu when covid started, I literally bribed a covid vulnerable family member with food to get them to get a flu shot). Schools and colleges opening? Yes but that's kind of not happening so much afterall. Colder weather and people being inside more? Wow this just shows the extreme east coast bias of the establishment. Fall will make it actually feasible to be outside hot parts of the U.S. like AZ when the scorching heat of summer fades.
The flu vaccine doesn't CAUSE the flu. It's made from killed virus, so how would that work? You might get a side effect such as muscle aches, or low grade fever, but that's an immune response. If you happen to get the flu, it was not from the vaccine, but a strain not covered by the vaccine.
That being said, I do think folks should have a choice whether to vaccinate or not.
If they're observing proper COVID protocols, they shouldn't be getting the flu, should they? I would expect fewer flu infections this year.
.
That IF at the beginning of your sentence is why we won't have fewer flu infections. My cousin's wife's school in small town Kansas is fully reopening despite the county being a mega hotspot. It's a small, 4800 person county experiencing 851 covid positives per 100,000 population in the past two weeks. No action from the mayor. Everything's still open, no masks, etc.
gimmethesimplelife
8-20-20, 12:40pm
I don’t have the energy to argue. But I agree with this policy of requiring flu vaccines. Just so you all on this thread hear from a nurse on this topic.Tammy, hi! I have not been around here much lately so I don't know the trajectory of your story. Are you doing better - I remember you had Covid, right? Glad to.see you posting here and am hoping you are 100 percent on track. Rob
iris lilies
8-20-20, 12:49pm
I don’t have the energy to argue. But I agree with this policy of requiring flu vaccines. Just so you all on this thread hear from a nurse on this topic.
You will be happy with me because this year, after years of not having a flu vaccine, I got it. Because this was not a year where you want to mess with it.
It is part of doing my patriotic duty to stay out of hospitals, and away from COVID19 infection.
I think I've mentioned this here before and if so I'll apologize before mentioning it again. I got my first flu shot in 1975 or 76 as part of the US Air Force's mandatory effort to protect its investment in precious equipment from the swine flu. A week later I had the worst case of flu I'd ever experienced, before or after. Luckily the flu shot was entered into my medical record so that I couldn't be charged with intentional damage to government property, a risk I fear may return in some form once government takes over healthcare. ( I was required to get one the next year too but managed to sweet talk a base hospital contact into checking it off on my medical records)
That experience soured me on flu shots until about 2012 when my wife convinced me to get another, which much to my surprise didn't kill me. I've gotten one each year since without issue so maybe that first one was a fluke. I'll continue getting one each year and will also get any Covid-19 vaccine which may turn up, but I resent and disavow any government edict to do so. That's not right.
"but I resent and disavow any government edict to do so. That's not right."
I wholeheartedly agree.
I consider it a patriotic duty not to infect anyone with a potentially life-threatening disease if I can help it; I'm doing my part by staying home.
If some kind of COVID preventative is approved by a scientific body with any standing, I'll certainly consider it.
I predicted this. The governor of my state, a wealthy former health care executive, is not satisfied with covid restrictions. To make more money for his preferred sector of the economy he is now mandating all students from daycare through college get the flu vaccine this year, with exceptions only for medical and religious reasons,
I'm all for school age people to get the flu vaccine. I think it should be mandatory elsewhere. I think it's important to get kids back to school and especially in person learning. There's no need for a further medical complication to an already tenuous situation. I probably be for mandatory vaccination of adults, too, but it would probably cause more street protests about individual liberties, so might be a little too ambitious. Plus, I'm predicting flu vaccine shortages this year.
Teacher Terry
8-20-20, 2:39pm
For once I agree with Alan and Yppej! Definitely overreaching.
frugal-one
8-20-20, 2:50pm
I'm all for school age people to get the flu vaccine. I think it should be mandatory elsewhere. I think it's important to get kids back to school and especially in person learning. There's no need for a further medical complication to an already tenuous situation. I probably be for mandatory vaccination of adults, too, but it would probably cause more street protests about individual liberties, so might be a little too ambitious. Plus, I'm predicting flu vaccine shortages this year.
Nope... Any medicine put into my body should be MY choice.
Nope... Any medicine put into my body should be MY choice.
When your body can make my body sick it's more than that.
The CDC has a comprehensive description of flu shot misconceptions.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/misconceptions.htm
When your body can make my body sick it's more than that. ...
That will be the justification for any and all forced medication. Wait for it.
I am "forced" to get the flu vaccine every year if I wish to continue working as a first responder.
The "force" used is "hey, your body, your choice, but if you choose not to get vaccinated, we choose to not let you work here".
Maybe the anti forced flu vaccine respondents are correct. After all we theoretically allow women to kill a fertilized egg in their womb. So maybe we should allow people to potentially kill actual other living people through their healthcare decisions as well.
That will be the justification for any and all forced medication. Wait for it.
Something to worry about an other year. This year there won't be enough flu vaccine to go around for the whole population without some sort of emergency declaration.
But the issue of the OP is whether or not school aged people should be required to get the vaccine, in light of the Covid pandemic.
Maybe the anti forced flu vaccine respondents are correct. After all we theoretically allow women to kill a fertilized egg in their womb.
Or, "theoretically", even after the fetus is fully formed and in some cases just prior to birth. Once we accept that it's not much of a stretch to foresee punitive action against anyone, for any reason.
The only positive in that is that the government hasn't gone full Communist China and force those "theoretical" deaths. I suppose they won't force involuntary vaccinations either, they'll probably give us a choice of either doing as they say or face financial penalties and/or forced physical isolation until we've had a chance to change our minds. They've already tested the waters with the ACA requirement (since removed after much effort) that everyone purchase insurance lest they be fined and finding that a significant portion of the population was fine with it.
Or, "theoretically", even after the fetus is fully formed and in some cases just prior to birth. Once we accept that it's not much of a stretch to foresee punitive action against anyone, for any reason.
That whole just before birth thing is fiction. The only time that happens is when the mother’s health is in danger.
But more importantly you’re pro choice now that the you agree that the government should keep out of people’s personal medical decision?
But more importantly you’re pro choice now that the you agree that the government should keep out of people’s personal medical decision?I am pro choice, I believe babies would choose to live if they had a voice in the matter.
That whole just before birth thing is fiction. The only time that happens is when the mother’s health is in danger. Or if potential abnormalities are detected in the fetus, such as happened with my oldest grandson. He's 23 now by the way.
So you’re cool with the government making some medical decisions but not others even though in both cases the goal is to avoid a person harming another? That seems remarkably inconsistent.
So you’re cool with the government making some medical decisions but not others even though in both cases the goal is to avoid a person harming another? That seems remarkably inconsistent.I'm not sure where I've expressed "coolness" with government making any medical decisions.
I'm not sure where I've expressed "coolness" with government making any medical decisions.
Perhaps coolness is not the perfect choice of word, but nonetheless you seem to be ok with the government making some medical decisions if those decisions may impact others, but not other medical decisions that may impact others. I’m trying to understand what makes some ok and not others. In my mind, governmental medical decisions to prevent one person causing the death of another full grown adult human would, if anything, be more important than getting involved in a decision involving a not yet fully formed human incapable of living independently.
ApatheticNoMore
8-20-20, 4:39pm
I am pro choice, I believe babies would choose to live if they had a voice in the matter.
I'm not sure they would! They would say "we never asked to be born" maybe.
Because really it's adults who want children NOT children who want to be born, and if they are adults that don't want their children then it's just going to be extra ugly all over.
iris lilies
8-20-20, 4:45pm
Perhaps coolness is not the perfect choice of word, but nonetheless you seem to be ok with the government making some medical decisions if those decisions may impact others, but not other medical decisions that may impact others. I’m trying to understand what makes some ok and not others. In my mind, governmental medical decisions to prevent one person causing the death of another full grown adult human would, if anything, be more important than getting involved in a decision involving a not yet fully formed human incapable of living independently.
Because those “preventions” are not absolute. They are not black and white in cause and effect.
Aborting a fetus of any age is pretty much an absolute. i am hard pressed to think of an exception other than mangled abortions where the fetus lives.
I think a lot of people don't know how late in pregnancy some of these damaged fetuses show up. I skim read about this, and 23-26 weeks seems to be a common testing time for abnormalities to appear in a pregnancy.
Wow this thread went everywhere!
I’m struggling to see why requiring measles etc vaccines for all sorts of groups is ok, but requiring flu vaccines is not. How about internal consistency in our arguments?
And I have hundreds of nurses n my sample at work and the bast majority support immunizations. There will always be outliers ...
Gimmethesimplelife - I’m half better. Still off work. Details are in another thread. Thanks for your kind thoughts.
I'd be OK with no forced medications/immunizations if it came down to that. Since no one is permanently grafting masks onto your face, I would still prefer people wore those.
The vast majority of abortions (91%?) are done in the first trimester. I doubt such an unformed collection of human cells has opinions, and, it it's an immortal soul, it isn't subject to termination. At any rate, it isn't your body that's at stake.
iris lilies
8-20-20, 5:04pm
I think the mask argument is dumb anyway, the one that is from the point of view of “the government should force everyone to wear masks/the government should not force everyone to wear masks. “
It’s common sense to wear a mask when it’s easy to do and even when it’s a little hard to do. Those who have medical reasons not to wear a mask, don’t wear a mask. Those who have a hard time wearing a mask,8 hours a day and still work in close proximity with other people, that is a problem, we all need to admit it.And maybe cut those people some slack if they’re looking for occasional relief from eight hours of mask wearing.
but this flailing about on point of the government needs to make everyone wear one is ridiculous. This is absolutely ridiculous in my region, they wont do it. Doesn’t matter what the government says, people are gonna do what they are gonna do. I’ve told you many times about what low life around here does and it ain’t following government laws or Regs.
But on a cheerful note, we are seeing more of porch pirates caught on home security camera footage, those guys stealing packages, wearing masks! These unlawful guys would not Normally be following any stinking government regulation, but for some reason they are following it about masks. Gosh I can’t figure out why this is different…
Teacher Terry
8-20-20, 5:38pm
Alan, no one does late term abortions for fun. It’s usually that the mom is going to die or the baby will be born with a fatal condition that will cause much suffering before dying.
Alan, no one does late term abortions for fun. It’s usually that the mom is going to die or the baby will be born with a fatal condition that will cause much suffering before dying.
But the mythology lingers on...
But the mythology lingers on...It's not mythology. Doctors and social workers recommended a late term abortion for my oldest grandson. He's now 23 years old and as I type this he is happily playing downstairs with his train set which has taken up permanent residence on my pool table. Earlier this afternoon he and I spent an hour or so in the pool where he delighted in fetching diving sticks out of the deep end, doing cannon balls and splashing me whenever he could. After dinner we'll probably spend some time outside with him riding his three wheel bicycle up and down the street.
When he was 5 my daughter got pregnant again and those same doctors recommended she abort as soon as possible on the off chance her second may have problems also. That grandson is now 18 and one of the most sensitive souls I've ever met.
So, what bothers me whenever people talk about abortion is their refusal to acknowledge the life that's being taken. I know that acknowledgement may undermine their position, but then again, it should.
Teacher Terry
8-20-20, 6:32pm
If someone recommended a abortion for a child with Down’s syndrome at the late stage is stupid. That’s a decision that you make in the early stages after aminocentisis if you cannot handle it. Having one child with that doesn’t mean another will have it.
iris lilies
8-20-20, 7:27pm
One size does not fit all.
Some families are going to take some birth defects in stride some of the time. Physicians are just part of the decision-making team. Ultimately, whether or not a baby identified as compromised is brought into the world needs to be up to parents.
They are in charge of in what happens to in utero kids, and yes it is sad when some of these tiny babies suffer. But that is the decision of their parents.
One size does not fit all.
Some families are going to take some birth defects in stride some of the time. Physicians are just part of the decision-making team. Ultimately, whether or not a baby identified as compromised is brought into the world needs to be up to parents.
They are in charge of in what happens to in utero kids, and yes it is sad when some of these tiny babies suffer. But that is the decision of their parents.
That’s rational. Alan’s grandson is fortunate. And obviously very much loved and cared for. Unfortunately some pregnant women just don’t have the family support necessary to raise such a child. They should not be forced to take on something they can’t handle.
I remember years ago reading a moving column by George Will about his disabled son who others would have aborted, and the good life he led with family support, seeing the value in that, and also thinking not many families have the resources Will has to make that happen.
It is most certainly a highly personal decision, and it should be.
...
They are in charge of in what happens to in utero kids, and yes it is sad when some of these tiny babies suffer. But that is the decision of their parents.
Often, children born unwanted suffer most of all. The headlines are full of them.
If someone recommended a abortion for a child with Down’s syndrome at the late stage is stupid. That’s a decision that you make in the early stages after aminocentisis if you cannot handle it. Having one child with that doesn’t mean another will have it.He doesn't have Down's Syndrome, he's a Trisomy 9 Mosaic, much rarer and results in varying levels of infirmary. It's often a result of one parent having balanced translocation affecting chromosome 9 so it's entirely possible to affect subsequent siblings as well.
frugal-one
8-20-20, 8:08pm
When your body can make my body sick it's more than that.
The CDC has a comprehensive description of flu shot misconceptions.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/prevent/misconceptions.htm
Not if I follow the proper protocols. You or anyone else does not have the right to tell me what medicines to put in MY body.
frugal-one
8-20-20, 8:11pm
Or, "theoretically", even after the fetus is fully formed and in some cases just prior to birth. Once we accept that it's not much of a stretch to foresee punitive action against anyone, for any reason.
The only positive in that is that the government hasn't gone full Communist China and force those "theoretical" deaths. I suppose they won't force involuntary vaccinations either, they'll probably give us a choice of either doing as they say or face financial penalties and/or forced physical isolation until we've had a chance to change our minds. They've already tested the waters with the ACA requirement (since removed after much effort) that everyone purchase insurance lest they be fined and finding that a significant portion of the population was fine with it.
Insurance is not the same as a vaccination.
Teacher Terry
8-20-20, 8:20pm
I am familiar with the syndrome Alan. Some people don’t get amniocentesis because they won’t abort no matter what. If this wasn’t discovered until near the end of the pregnancy then parents deserve a explanation of the possibilities and then make their own decision. I doubt most people would abort at the late stage for this. If they had the tests earlier than I can see more choosing that option.
.....If they had the tests earlier than I can see more choosing that option.Especially if they've been told their entire lives that it's not a life at stake, just a collection of cells. Our collection of cells just served us ice cream.
Insurance is not the same as a vaccination.No, they're not the same. But let's say some governmental entity somewhere proclaimed that we all have to eat a serving of asparagus every day or else be fined. That's not the same as either insurance or a vaccination, but just like those two it would be another example of governmental over-reach.
Not if I follow the proper protocols. You or anyone else does not have the right to tell me what medicines to put in MY body.
Do you think it's appropriate for school aged kids to be required to have the flu vaccine when everyone seems to be trying so hard to have in-person schooling work out during the pandemic. And where flu cases could just add to the complicated nature of getting or keeping things open. Or possibly there should only be home or online schooling for those wishing to opt out of the vaccine? Or is it a restriction of personal freedoms?
I think that was the original discussion, which really didn't get talked about much at all.
gimmethesimplelife
8-20-20, 10:00pm
This is a reason I don't fit well into the US and likely never will. My take? Drum roll please. Should a proven safe vaccine materialize, I consider it my moral and ethical obligation to the collective good of society to stick my arm out for a shot. Seriously. I mean every word of this. This one goes way beyond any neighborhood loyalty - I'm talking about the collective good of ALL of society here.
Given this stance, see how I don't fit into this country? I shake my head and I just don't understand many Americans. Once a vaccine materializes that's proven safe and at least somewhat effective I will camp.out for days to get it if I have to - it's my duty to society to do so. Very Austrian thinking here and for this I am very proud of the red, white and black (colors in the Austrian flag).
I do realize I'm not the only US citizen with this take, granted - but we're talking life vs potential serious illness/death here, for ourselves and others - and many Americans could care less. Color me ashamed but proud that I was raised Austrian and kept much of this thinking. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
8-20-20, 10:02pm
Came back to add very Mexican thinking, too, apparently as SO and family feel the same way but their reasoning is not just the good of society but includes religion, too. Rob
ApatheticNoMore
8-20-20, 11:04pm
Giving kids flu shots to deal with covid in schools seems to me a very poor plan to deal with covid in schools. It might prevent some cases of flu being mistaken for covid, but a lot of kids are asymptomatic right? No, it doesn't solve anything, you need comprehensive covid testing in schools, not flu shots.
happystuff
8-21-20, 7:56am
It's not mythology. Doctors and social workers recommended a late term abortion for my oldest grandson. He's now 23 years old and as I type this he is happily playing downstairs with his train set which has taken up permanent residence on my pool table. Earlier this afternoon he and I spent an hour or so in the pool where he delighted in fetching diving sticks out of the deep end, doing cannon balls and splashing me whenever he could. After dinner we'll probably spend some time outside with him riding his three wheel bicycle up and down the street.
When he was 5 my daughter got pregnant again and those same doctors recommended she abort as soon as possible on the off chance her second may have problems also. That grandson is now 18 and one of the most sensitive souls I've ever met.
So, what bothers me whenever people talk about abortion is their refusal to acknowledge the life that's being taken. I know that acknowledgement may undermine their position, but then again, it should.
"Recommended" and obviously SHE made her own choice. Yay for her freedom to choose!
Especially if they've been told their entire lives that it's not a life at stake, just a collection of cells. Our collection of cells just served us ice cream.
Oh, horse hockey. I grew up fully aware that pregnancy termination was illegal--and as I got older--hearing about gruesome deaths of fully-grown, thinking, feeling, human women dying from botched abortions. Any half-conscious person is aware that fetal cells have the potential to grow into human beings, which is why most women give the decision a great deal of thought. For some reason, the pearl-clutching around this issue never seems to extend to the millions of post-born humans suffering on this planet, just the hypothetical cherubs in some hypothetical woman's womb.
happystuff
8-21-20, 10:22am
Out of curiosity, Alan, how many of the unwanted but not aborted human beings have you adopted into your immediate family as a fully accepted, non-biologically-related "family" member?
iris lilies
8-21-20, 10:32am
Out of curiosity, Alan, how many of the unwanted but not aborted human beings have you adopted into your immediate family as a fully accepted, non-biologically-related "family" member?
I don’t understand why there are still children Who are “ not wanted” with such wide availability of birth control and abortion.
Margaret Sanger would be shaking her head in confusion and sadness.
I suspect most children who are “not wanted “were consciously birthed by women who knew they had an alternative. .Plenty of women are on the fence about a pregnancy and then regret it after it comes to fruition. That’s just human nature. And then, plenty of women think they want a baby but when it gets here dang that’s a lot of trouble.Or, circumstances change between the time they get pregnant and The time Of delivery. In that time marriages break up, boyfriends leave, stability erodes.
happystuff
8-21-20, 10:40am
I don’t understand why there are still children Who are “ not wanted” with such wide availability of birth control and abortion.
Margaret Sanger would be shaking her head in confusion and sadness.
I suspect most children who are “not wanted “were consciously birthed by women who knew they had an alternative. .Plenty of women are on the fence about a pregnancy and then regret it after it comes to fruition. That’s just human nature. And then, plenty of women think they want a baby but when it gets here dang that’s a lot of trouble.Or, circumstances change between the time they get pregnant and The time Of delivery. In that time marriages break up, boyfriends leave, stability erodes.
Based on the various levels and types of involvement in this issue that I have had in my life, the number of reasons and variety of circumstances pretty much equals the number of children.
Out of curiosity, Alan, how many of the unwanted but not aborted human beings have you adopted into your immediate family as a fully accepted, non-biologically-related "family" member?
Regretfully, none. When we were younger we seriously considered becoming certified as foster parents but never did, mainly because we couldn't imagine having to give the children back at some point. The older I get the more I regret that failing.
If you're asking the question in hopes of revealing hypocrisy on my part, I have no defense.
happystuff
8-21-20, 10:48am
I don’t understand why there are still children Who are “ not wanted” with such wide availability of birth control and abortion.
I also question "wide availability", especially since some employers are now free to refuse coverage of birth control, as well as the actual locations for access to both birth control and abortion (when there are actual funds available for the costs) for some people.
I don’t understand why there are still children Who are “ not wanted” with such wide availability of birth control and abortion.
Margaret Sanger would be shaking her head in confusion and sadness. ...
I don't quite get that either--I was very clear that I didn't want children, and always took multiple precautions until I was able to have my tubal ligation. I guess I can see that some women are overwhelmed by the reality of motherhood.
happystuff
8-21-20, 10:51am
Regretfully, none. When we were younger we seriously considered becoming certified as foster parents but never did, mainly because we couldn't imagine having to give the children back at some point. The older I get the more I regret that failing.
If you're asking the question in hopes of revealing hypocrisy on my part, I have no defense.
That was not the intent of my question. I actually was simply curious.
I greatly admire and applaud the work of foster parents. I never became a foster parent for the same reason as you, which is why we chose to adopt.
I also question "wide availability", especially since some employers are now free to refuse coverage of birth control, as well as the actual locations for access to both birth control and abortion (when there are actual funds available for the costs) for some people.
Obviously, I don't keep up with this stuff, but the cost of birth control has apparently been soaring along with that of all other medical treatments, so there's that--along with the omnipresent conservative obstructionism of any and all family planning.
happystuff
8-21-20, 11:14am
Obviously, I don't keep up with this stuff, but the cost of birth control has apparently been soaring along with that of all other medical treatments, so there's that--along with the omnipresent conservative obstructionism of any and all family planning.
Decided to google "male birth control pill" and see that there are some being developed.
https://utswmed.org/medblog/pill-guys-male-birth-control-option-passes-safety-tests/
I think men doing their share to stop unwanted pregnancies at the source will definitely have an impact - in many ways.
Decided to google "male birth control pill" and see that there are some being developed.
https://utswmed.org/medblog/pill-guys-male-birth-control-option-passes-safety-tests/
I think men doing their share to stop unwanted pregnancies at the source will definitely have an impact - in many ways.
It would seem they would have a solid financial stake in the game, if nothing else.
flowerseverywhere
8-22-20, 5:31am
It's not mythology. Doctors and social workers recommended a late term abortion for my oldest grandson. He's now 23 years old and as I type this he is happily playing downstairs with his train set which has taken up permanent residence on my pool table. Earlier this afternoon he and I spent an hour or so in the pool where he delighted in fetching diving sticks out of the deep end, doing cannon balls and splashing me whenever he could. After dinner we'll probably spend some time outside with him riding his three wheel bicycle up and down the street.
When he was 5 my daughter got pregnant again and those same doctors recommended she abort as soon as possible on the off chance her second may have problems also. That grandson is now 18 and one of the most sensitive souls I've ever met.
So, what bothers me whenever people talk about abortion is their refusal to acknowledge the life that's being taken. I know that acknowledgement may undermine their position, but then again, it should.
Your grandson is very lucky to have been born into a loving family, and you are so lucky to have him.
i worked at a hospital as a float for a year as we moved around the country and they used to float me to the abortion clinic regularly. It was so very sad. Most women were truly heartbroken at making such a terrible choice. The reasons they were there were too numerous to mention. But I did learn that what is portrayed on the news and anti abortion circles is a far cry from what is reality. All over the world the incest and other forms of sexual abuse (even in marriage) is rampant. Many women are abandoned by the baby daddy, estranged from their family, dirt poor and unable to feed the kids they have.
unfortunately attempts to close clinics that provide birth control services, claiming a religious exemption so your insurance does not provide birth control to employees and expecting abstention leads To unwanted pregnancy. Remember Sarah Palins daughter who lectured with her daughter about abstaining from sex until she got pregnant? People are going to have sex, inside and out of marriage regardless of faith, race or marital status. Hormones were designed to keep the population going and were not designed to fit into the pigeonholes our society has created.
the Medically uninsured population has increased during the pandemic and will continue to rise as companies come to grips with their situations. Here in Florida restaurants are open but few people go. Stores are empty. Roads are empty and I am sure car dealerships are suffering.
Until we have access and affordability for all women to receive the birth control and prenatal care like the rest of the developed world more Abortions will occur than if they were available.
I am not an abortion advocate but I also am not in a position to judge anyone else. I pray every day for all the people in the world who have gone through the pain of having to make such difficult choices.
You explained it all quite well flowers. Thank you.
So, what bothers me whenever people talk about abortion is their refusal to acknowledge the life that's being taken. I know that acknowledgement may undermine their position, but then again, it should.
I think we are on the same page when it comes to approaching abortion as a loss of hope--we're both optimists despite our political differences. My hope and confidence in my ability to love kept my daughter from being aborted, so I very much have a happy ending like you. My family members weren't as hopeful and "suggested" I abort. The thought that my daughter may have never lived fills me with horror.
But hope doesn't guarantee these happy endings. Not every woman is going to have an example like your GS and my DD. In fact, probably relatively few will. So, it's not up to me to project my hope onto their unique situations.
I also think that our hope for the promise of the fetus leads to inconsistencies about the sanctity of life. If all life is so sacred, why do we torture animals in industrial farming so we can please our palates? Why doesn't our conscience bother us then? Why doesn't our conscience bother us when we take an eye for an eye in the prison system? It's easy to project all our hopes and dreams on an anonymous zygote, but that hope falls apart for the doomed sentient non-humans, and it falls apart on the "sinful" brother or sister who fell from grace. But life is life, right?
happystuff
8-22-20, 9:25am
Read this book several years ago. I found it to be a very interesting "what if..." . Haven't read any of the subsequent books by this author yet.
Unwind is a 2007 dystopian novel by young adult literature author Neal Shusterman.
I think we are on the same page when it comes to approaching abortion as a loss of hope--we're both optimists despite our political differences. My hope and confidence in my ability to love kept my daughter from being aborted, so I very much have a happy ending like you. My family members weren't as hopeful and "suggested" I abort. The thought that my daughter may have never lived fills me with horror.
But hope doesn't guarantee these happy endings. Not every woman is going to have an example like your GS and my DD. In fact, probably relatively few will. So, it's not up to me to project my hope onto their unique situations.
I also our hope for the promise of the fetus leads to inconsistencies about the sanctity of life. If all life is so sacred, why do we torture animals in industrial farming so we can please our palates? Why doesn't our conscience bother us then? Why doesn't our conscience bother us when we take an eye for an eye in the prison system? It's easy to project all our hopes and dreams on an anonymous zygote, but that hope falls apart for the doomed sentient non-humans, and it falls apart on the "sinful" brother or sister who fell from grace. But life is life, right?
That is such a clear statement of my thinking as well. Cath. Thank you!
Teacher Terry
8-22-20, 11:42am
Catherine, thanks for explaining that so well.
iris lilies
8-22-20, 12:15pm
I think we are on the same page when it comes to approaching abortion as a loss of hope--we're both optimists despite our political differences. My hope and confidence in my ability to love kept my daughter from being aborted, so I very much have a happy ending like you. My family members weren't as hopeful and "suggested" I abort. The thought that my daughter may have never lived fills me with horror.
But hope doesn't guarantee these happy endings. Not every woman is going to have an example like your GS and my DD. In fact, probably relatively few will. So, it's not up to me to project my hope onto their unique situations.
I also think that our hope for the promise of the fetus leads to inconsistencies about the sanctity of life. If all life is so sacred, why do we torture animals in industrial farming so we can please our palates? Why doesn't our conscience bother us then? Why doesn't our conscience bother us when we take an eye for an eye in the prison system? It's easy to project all our hopes and dreams on an anonymous zygote, but that hope falls apart for the doomed sentient non-humans, and it falls apart on the "sinful" brother or sister who fell from grace. But life is life, right?
Their good points here, but no way do I think the prison system takes “an eye for an eye. “
I think that may be your simplistic summary because you don’t live in a crime ridden neighborhood and crime is not part of your daily life. Since this thread is all already all over the place, I will just say that for those of us who live in crime land, having perps put away in prison for however long is a relief to the society they prey on. Please don’t discount that.The reality is that they are NOT locked up for long anyway, so when I hear whining about how petty crimes land people in jail I just want to say gosh where does that take place? Maybe I would like to live there. We had a very interesting crime situation in Hermann then I’ll write about later. Sure is different than living in murder city.
iris lilies
8-22-20, 12:24pm
Oh, horse hockey. I grew up fully aware that pregnancy termination was illegal--and as I got older--hearing about gruesome deaths of fully-grown, thinking, feeling, human women dying from botched abortions. Any half-conscious person is aware that fetal cells have the potential to grow into human beings, which is why most women give the decision a great deal of thought. For some reason, the pearl-clutching around this issue never seems to extend to the millions of post-born humans suffering on this planet, just the hypothetical cherubs in some hypothetical woman's womb.
I also think it is horse hockey to complain there’s no birth control pill for men, and women are so poorly served by the healthcare reproduction industry.
I just want to say what the actual ****?
Point one: men don't take birth control
how is this even a serious complaint? Let’s just flip this on in the end and let’s pretend we live in a world where only men control births. Seriously, you don’t see that as loss of choice and freedom for women? It’s hard for me to envision a world where I, as a young single woman, would give a **** what my partner is taking for birth control. Like I would never trust that. Not happening. I would have to be in a pretty serious long-term relationship before I let my guard down and said yeah buddy, you take ofer preventing my pregnancy..
Point two: Young women today have incredible resources to control their biology. Do you know how much I would’ve loved that three year arm implant thing that keeps you from getting pregnant? For three years! Good god, sign me up. If you dare to tell me I can’t afford it I’m just going to laugh. Of course I could afford it. I’m not even going to dignify that thought by going off to see in relative dollars how much it would cost today versus 30 years ago. Because whenever I spend my own time doing that kind of investigative work it show the complainers are just whiny complainers.
You have solid reliable birth control ladies. Respect it. Be grown-up ****ing adult women and use it. So many people have worked for decades to deliver these choices to you.
catherine
8-22-20, 12:41pm
Their good points here, but no way do I think the prison system takes “an eye for an eye. “
I think that may be your simplistic summary because you don’t live in a crime ridden neighborhood and crime is not part of your daily life. Since this thread is all already all over the place, I will just say that for those of us who live in crime land, having perps put away in prison for however long is a relief to the society they prey on. Please don’t discount that.The reality is that they are NOT locked up for long anyway, so when I hear whining about how petty crimes land people in jail I just want to say gosh where does that take place? Maybe I would like to live there. We had a very interesting crime situation in Hermann then I’ll write about later. Sure is different than living in murder city.
I'm not speaking about general prison reform even though that certainly is a legitimate topic. I'm actually referring specifically to a scenario in which the same little bundle of cells deemed so precious at that stage of its life grows up to commit a crime and is sentenced to the death penalty, because all of a sudden their life is no longer deemed sacred enough to keep.
iris lilies
8-22-20, 1:05pm
I'm not speaking about general prison reform even though that certainly is a legitimate topic. I'm actually referring specifically to a scenario in which the same little bundle of cells deemed so precious at that stage of its life grows up to commit a crime and is sentenced to the death penalty, because all of a sudden their life is no longer deemed sacred enough to keep.
It is not “ all of a sudden” because the perp who has landed himself/herself a death sentence has done some pretty horrific acts to other humans to get there.
Context matters when comparing the blob of cells and the fully grown human.
i think the justice system in its slow, ponderous movement in carrying out death penalty sentences shows it takes that life seriously. Most of these perps live for more than a decade on death row while appeals and legal wheels turn. It And then many states don’t even have capital punishment anymore.
While I don’t think capital punishment is really a deterrent to these monsters who do these horrific acts, I will say that in my recent sojourn into the world of child abuse via Hunting Warhead, I learned the Canadian pedo who was the center of a worldwide operation suggested to his American toddler raping buddy That the American move to Canada. The penalties are lighter for their fun and games. So yeah, penalties are on their radar.
Too bad for that perp, tho. He raped and was caught in the United States justice system.
I'm not speaking about general prison reform even though that certainly is a legitimate topic. I'm actually referring specifically to a scenario in which the same little bundle of cells deemed so precious at that stage of its life grows up to commit a crime and is sentenced to the death penalty, because all of a sudden their life is no longer deemed sacred enough to keep.
I'm not a believer in the death penalty as I don't think anyone or any institution or government should have the ability to decide who lives or who dies. That said, I don't think the premise is that some are no longer deemed sacred enough to keep their lives, but rather they're too dangerous/violent to exist in society.
I do sometimes wonder though which would be worse, a lifetime of confinement or a quick lethal injection? I'm glad that sort of decision is beyond my pay grade.
iris lilies
8-22-20, 1:18pm
I'm not a believer in the death penalty as I don't think anyone or any institution or government should have the ability to decide who lives or who dies. That said, I don't think the premise is that some are no longer deemed sacred enough to keep their lives, but rather they're too dangerous/violent to exist in society.
I do sometimes wonder though which would be worse, a lifetime of confinement or a quick lethal injection? I'm glad that sort of decision is beyond my pay grade.
I agree with this. Theoretically, I am fine if the death penalty remains as an option. But if it’s never carried out that’s fine too.There are monsters too dangerous for society, even living among prisoners in prison society. In those cases the death penalty may be the only solution To keep others safe.
happystuff
8-22-20, 4:42pm
I also think it is horse hockey to complain there’s no birth control pill for men, and women are so poorly served by the healthcare reproduction industry.
I just want to say what the actual ****?
Point one: men don't take birth control
how is this even a serious complaint? Let’s just flip this on in the end and let’s pretend we live in a world where only men control births. Seriously, you don’t see that as loss of choice and freedom for women? It’s hard for me to envision a world where I, as a young single woman, would give a **** what my partner is taking for birth control. Like I would never trust that. Not happening. I would have to be in a pretty serious long-term relationship before I let my guard down and said yeah buddy, you take ofer preventing my pregnancy..
Point two: Young women today have incredible resources to control their biology. Do you know how much I would’ve loved that three year arm implant thing that keeps you from getting pregnant? For three years! Good god, sign me up. If you dare to tell me I can’t afford it I’m just going to laugh. Of course I could afford it. I’m not even going to dignify that thought by going off to see in relative dollars how much it would cost today versus 30 years ago. Because whenever I spend my own time doing that kind of investigative work it show the complainers are just whiny complainers.
You have solid reliable birth control ladies. Respect it. Be grown-up ****ing adult women and use it. So many people have worked for decades to deliver these choices to you.
If - as you seem to be saying - the onus of pregnancy is all on the woman, then men should stay out of ALL rules, laws, decisions, etc. concerning a woman and all aspects of her pregnancy - including the continuation or termination or prevention; unless, of course, she chooses to include the original owner of the sperm involved.
Edited to add: And this should also include more severe penalties for rape, incest, and child molestation. If the onus is on the woman to control her birth control choices, anyone who violates a woman's choices should be held legally responsible for their actions more severely than sometimes currently occurs.
early morning
8-22-20, 7:32pm
If - as you seem to be saying - the onus of pregnancy is all on the woman, then men should stay out of ALL rules, laws, decisions, etc. concerning a woman and all aspects of her pregnancy - including the continuation or termination or prevention; unless, of course, she chooses to include the original owner of the sperm involved.
Edited to add: And this should also include more severe penalties for rape, incest, and child molestation. If the onus is on the woman to control her birth control choices, anyone who violates a woman's choices should be held legally responsible for their actions more severely than sometimes currently occurs.
I could not agree more - you stated it very well!!
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.