Neighbors and poison use

[pinkytoe]

A year ago, my next door neighbor threw mothballs everywhere in the alley to deter pests. The smell was horrific for quite a while and kept us out of the backyard. This fall, he has now spread rodenticide pellets all along the fence in the alley behind his house. I am worried for all the critters this will kill. We don't have a rodent issue - he just doesn't like squirrels and in his infinite wisdom thinks that his poison will eliminate them. Now I am afraid to let my cat outside even though he never leaves the yard.

[Gardnr]

I'm sorry! My neighbors know I grow organically. They use Round Up on weeds just 8 feet away from one of my raised beds. >:( (We have "dirt" 10feet between garage walls.) They grow boring zero maintenance shrubs and use Round Up. I grow food-well, not anymore.

I'd be worried about my cat as well!!!

[catherine]

Yes, that would drive me crazy as well..

My environmentally-insensitive neighbors don't use pesticides, but this year they mowed the entire buffer of vegetation between the lake and our yard down to nothing. They don't even observe the 3" mowing rule. It's like shave and a haircut.

The frustrating thing is we are subject to very high waters in the spring--which have flooded a couple of our neighbors' homes, and we also get tons of geese pooping all over the place. The vegetation mitigates both of those things, but they don't make the connection--they insist that they want to see every inch of the lake right up to the shore. I've had one neighbor threaten another if she dares to plant a tree on her own property because it will potentially obstruct the view.

[Teacher Terry]

Last year we had a squirrel eating our garden and our neighbors. The neighbor said he was going to poison it but didn’t because of our dogs. I asked him not to. No food for us that year:)). This year no problem.

[KayLR]

wow, that would tick me off, too, and I'd be afraid for the cat!

I share a fence with a young neighbor couple. They're very quiet and non-social. I often see them at the fence pulling grass and weeds growing at the base. Their yard is really nothing to brag about, pretty ho-hum, so I find it interesting that they drag their organics bin to the fence to pull errant weeds their mower doesn't get. I mean they're hand-pulling grass; they don't even own any tools.

So....anyway....on the fence toward the corner are some blackberries I don't cut back because I like to pick them. I do keep them manageable, but they're wild berries. The other day I was picking a few and felt something squirt onto my face----Roundup from over the fence overshot onto ME!

They're so odd I didn't say anything, and I was kind of shocked and afraid what would come out of my mouth. So I just went inside to clean up.

I mean, they're free to kill the berries on their side of the fence if they choose to I guess, but that was shocking!

[happystuff]

So....anyway....on the fence toward the corner are some blackberries I don't cut back because I like to pick them. I do keep them manageable, but they're wild berries. The other day I was picking a few and felt something squirt onto my face----Roundup from over the fence overshot onto ME!

They're so odd I didn't say anything, and I was kind of shocked and afraid what would come out of my mouth. So I just went inside to clean up.

I mean, they're free to kill the berries on their side of the fence if they choose to I guess, but that was shocking!

Oh, KayLR! I hope you were able to get it all off. I would have made a loud startled sound - to get their attention and let them know what they did. Not mean- just a "Hey, do you realize what you just did?!" type thing.

[pinkytoe]

I try to coexist when it comes to home landscaping, insect control etc but the lack of awareness about how it's all connected is depressing. DH jokingly says our neighbors attend the Church of Green Grass as they are devout when it comes to sterile, manicured lawns. It is no wonder that insects and birds are disappearing.

[frugal-one]

I'm sorry! My neighbors know I grow organically. They use Round Up on weeds just 8 feet away from one of my raised beds. >:( (We have "dirt" 10feet between garage walls.) They grow boring zero maintenance shrubs and use Round Up. I grow food-well, not anymore.

I'd be worried about my cat as well!!!

Same here. Used to have an herb garden but neighbors kept spraying and the herbs died. Needless to say I don't plant anything there anymore. They also have kids that play on that yard. Makes no sense to me.

[iris lilies]

https://academic.oup.com/jnci/article/110/5/509/4590280


I know that academic studies by objective governmental agencies are not nearly as persuasive as headline news fueled by hysterical court outcomes, but given all that, I like my glyphosate.

I signed the gardeners agreement that I wouldn’t use Roundup in our community garden along with everyone else, so I do not use Roundup in our community garden. Meanwhile, I watch the amateur weeders pull up my iris, lilies, and everything else purposely there because they are too fkg stupid to learn basic plants. . I have to put up with it because god forbid they let me use a little weed killer to keep the perennial borders clean. It is either the amateurs do all of the weeding, I use weed killer appropriately, or I have to spend hours and hours weeding. As it is I already do some weeding in “their” areas to keep them from destroying plants.

[Gardnr]

Same here. Used to have an herb garden but neighbors kept spraying and the herbs died. Needless to say I don't plant anything there anymore. They also have kids that play on that yard. Makes no sense to me.

Yea, without discussion, they took out $100 worth of ornamental grasses and somehow all of my purple coneflower disappeared! They also keep backfilling the basin around the Red King Maple I put in 20 years ago. Sigh...............and they bought this place as their final retirement home and we are also here forever....sigh....I don't talk about any of it. Not worth it for the long haul.

He's also about the perfect, green manicured lawn. Fortunately that is on the other side of the fence and we don't have grass.

Oh the fence? It's a wonderful aged wood fence. He came over a few years and wanted to replace it. I told him there's nothing wrong with the fence and I really love the aged look of the wood.

Sigh..............

[Tybee]

WE had a neighbor like that. He was really nice and really helpful, but he ended up moving to a gated community, where I think he will be so much happier.

[Yppej]

I would be happy if my neighbors put out rodent poison. It would get rid of the chipmunks who eat my garden but I would not have it on my conscience that I killed them.

[pinkytoe]

I learned that it is actually against the law here to put out any sort of poison that is not within a container.

[BikingLady]

Everything is a weed somewhere my dad would say.

[lmerullo]

I've carefully planted flowering things these last few months. Sunday I saw four butterflies on the flowers. My landscape regularly buzzes with bees. Worth all the work.

I have been hand picking weeds and hand edging the lawn. Hubs just told me he saved me a bunch of time, as he used roundup on the secondary driveway. Thus ensued a conversation asking him to not use it any longer. Bless his heart!

[iris lilies]

I've carefully planted flowering things these last few months. Sunday I saw four butterflies on the flowers. My landscape regularly buzzes with bees. Worth all the work.

I have been hand picking weeds and hand edging the lawn. Hubs just told me he saved me a bunch of time, as he used roundup on the secondary driveway. Thus ensued a conversation asking him to not use it any longer. Bless his heart!

What is your reason for not using Roundup?

[lmerullo]

It's toxic to the bees and butterflys. I wouldn't want them killed because they got used to coming to my yard for pollen / nectar plants, and they landed on a "weed" that was sprayed and died.

Yes, I know a weed is a plant that isn't wanted in its current location.

[Tybee]

It's toxic to the bees and butterflys. I wouldn't want them killed because they got used to coming to my yard for pollen / nectar plants, and they landed on a "weed" that was sprayed and died.

Yes, I know a weed is a plant that isn't wanted in its current location.

Here is an article about a study that links Roundup to destruction of Monarch butterflies:

https://www.courthousenews.com/study-blames-roundup-monarch-butterfly-deaths/#:~:text=Glyphosate%20is%20one%20of%20the,agricult ural%20production%20and%20home%20use.&text=Environmental%20organizations%20have%20often% 20decried,pollinators%20like%20bees%20and%20butter flies.

We try hard to protect our Monarch butterflies, including not moving any of the milkweed that grows up around the house.

[iris lilies]

Here is an article about a study that links Roundup to destruction of Monarch butterflies:

https://www.courthousenews.com/study-blames-roundup-monarch-butterfly-deaths/#:~:text=Glyphosate%20is%20one%20of%20the,agricult ural%20production%20and%20home%20use.&text=Environmental%20organizations%20have%20often% 20decried,pollinators%20like%20bees%20and%20butter flies.

We try hard to protect our Monarch butterflies, including not moving any of the milkweed that grows up around the house.

The article is light on science, this s “courthouse news.” It just talks about “nexus” of Roundup and butterflies and is not specific science at all.

It has long been known that removing Monarch habitat, Asclepeis (Milkweed) destroys that butterfly population. Farmers spray herbicide to kill Milkweed along with all other weeds. It isn’t the glysophate compound that is to blame it is decimating a habitat.

If you all above are destroying the Asclepeis plants in your driveways and etc and wish to encourage Monarchs, then don’t use any herbicide that destroys habitat and that includes the “natural” salt and vinegar solution some people substitute. Letting milkweed grow up in cracks and etc. is good if you wish to encourage Monarch growth.

[catherine]

The article is light on science, this s “courthouse news.” It just talks about “nexus” of Roundup and butterflies and is not specific science at all.

It has long been known that removing Monarch habitat, Asclepeis (Milkweed) destroys that butterfly population. Farmers spray herbicide to kill Milkweed along with all other weeds. It isn’t the glysophate compound that is to blame it is decimating a habitat.

If you all above are destroying the Asclepeis plants in your driveways and etc and wish to encourage Monarchs, then don’t use any herbicide that destroys habitat and that includes the “natural” salt and vinegar solution some people substitute. Letting milkweed grow up in cracks and etc. is good if you wish to encourage Monarch growth.

I agree--I think it's a multi pronged issue. However, the negative impact on the environment of some of the broadly used chemical herbicides and pesticides--some of which are banned in Europe-- is real--and those include glyphosate, atrazine, and chlorpyrifos. (ETA: none of these chemicals are classified as neonics--the pesticides that are suspected to be the bad actors for bee colony collapse.)

Most experts agree that these chemicals should be used as a last resort. Integrated pest management (IPM) should be used first, with biological and mechanical solutions as the primary tools.

Agricultural practices have a long way to go in terms of adoption of less harmful, more polluting substances. Everyone knows that Round-Up is very widely used, and part of that is because Monsanto "owns" many farms across the country. I was just at a virtual meeting about how to save and restore Lake Champlain from its pollutants, and the biggest cause of the lake's problems is agricultural practices and sedimentary run-off.

And you're right, IL, we citizens can do a LOT to "be the change"--by giving up our love of turf monocultures and not only embracing "weeds" that feed pollinators, but actively encouraging them. When we plant, we can choose native pollinator plants--they are just as beautiful and in many cases hardier than non-natives.

Round up should be used only if buckthorn and Japanese knotweed are crawling through your windows and tying you to your bed. :)

[iris lilies]

I agree--I think it's a multi pronged issue. However, the negative impact on the environment of some of the broadly used chemical herbicides and pesticides--some of which are banned in Europe-- is real--and those include glyphosate, atrazine, and chlorpyrifos.

Most experts agree that these chemicals should be used as a last resort. Integrated pest management (IPM) should be used first, with biological and mechanical solutions as the primary tools.

Agricultural practices have a long way to go in terms of adoption of less harmful, more polluting substances. Everyone knows that Round-Up is very widely used, and part of that is because Monsanto "owns" many farms across the country. I was just at a virtual meeting about how to save and restore Lake Champlain from its pollutants, and the biggest cause of the lake's problems is agricultural practices and sedimentary run-off.

And you're right, IL, we citizens can do a LOT to "be the change"--by giving up our love of turf monocultures and not only embracing "weeds" that feed pollinators, but actively encouraging them. When we plant, we can choose native pollinator plants--they are just as beautiful and in many cases hardier than non-natives.

Round up should be used only if buckthorn and Japanese knotweed are crawling through your windows and tying you to your bed. :)

ah well everyone eventually has their justification for using Roundup be it buckthorn or weeds in the sidewalk cracks.My justifications are early in the game, not late.I will use it as I please and as it is useful to me.

And, I am not interested in natives, my plant life revolves around hybrids.

When I speak that truth (hahah) in a garden club meeting, there is a very brief but obvious silence from the group. Many of the garden club ladies are all about natives natives natives. That narrative bores me. There is a reason I was late to National Garden Clubs activites, and that is because most of their programs are boring, I participate only for flower show and floral design activities.

I say, if you can’t manipulate the plant world through selective breeding, where is the fun!!!???

[happystuff]

I have some friends that have let their properties "go native" - absolutely beautiful! All too often, many of the "hybrids" I see look more like plastic replicas than actual plants. But, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. :)

[catherine]

ah well everyone eventually has their justification for using Roundup be it buckthorn or weeds in the sidewalk cracks.My justifications are early in the game, not late.I will use it as I please and as it is useful to me.

And, I am not interested in natives, my plant life revolves around hybrids.

When I speak that truth (hahah) in a garden club meeting, there is a very brief but obvious silence from the group. Many of the garden club ladies are all about natives natives natives. That narrative bores me. There is a reason I was late to garden club of America activites, and that is because most of their programs are boring, I participate only for flower show and floral design activities.

I say, if you can’t manipulate the plant world through selective breeding, where is the fun!!!???

I was watching NOVA the other night and there is a research group that is tampering with one of the enzymes in plants that plays an important role in photosynthesis. There is a little glitch in this particular enzyme (rabisco) that goes back to an evolutionary reason for it millions of years ago that no longer is relevant now. But this group is experimenting with fixing the glitch at the molecular level--if they do they can increase plant production by 30%.

I don't mind tampering with plants a little bit, but there has to be balance. We can't speed ahead of nature--it takes its own good time and for the most part, I believe we're better off honoring that.

As I plant my garden, I'm focusing on native aster and echinacea and rudbeckia, but I'll throw in some other things--my biggest dilemma I'm facing is--I want a dwarf tree in the north corner of my yard, and I'm dying for a Japanese maple.

[iris lilies]

I have some friends that have let their properties "go native" - absolutely beautiful! All too often, many of the "hybrids" I see look more like plastic replicas than actual plants. But, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. :)

It is true that I am growing a bit tired of the “overdone” floofy big headed iris plants coming out of the West coast. One of the hybridizers has a line of “tall smalls” where the iris is tall, but flowers are smallish and the entire plant is elegant in proportion.

I have not much liked historics iris in the past, but I appreciate their lightness and delicacy. They are closer to species, kinda like native plants. I am coming around to liking them more.

[pinkytoe]

I can't say why exactly, but I am not drawn to hybrids anymore. To me, they are fussy. I am slowly reclaiming this yard I am now tied to indefinitely and I am hell bent on making a prairie out of the portion where renters used to park their cars. My neighbors will gasp but with even more stringent watering restrictions, wall to wall lawns and hybrid roses from the previous owner don't make any sense at all except as some relic of the past. I will take great delight in watching things grow that are native to this place (from the recent past anyway). They are headstrong and tough. I will not use poisons of any kind on this little patch of earth.

[iris lilies]

And then there are the species plants that aren’t native, but that masquerade as “natural.”

Pseudacorus iris is one of those—a strong grower needing little care, small flowers/not flashy. Looks like a native. When I looked it up I see it is from China and parts of Europe.

How long does something have to live here and thrive before it is “native?” I always wonder about this.

[pinkytoe]

How long does something have to live here and thrive before it is “native?”
I recently read Michael Pollan's book Second Nature on gardening with nature. If I understood it correctly, "native" at the time this book was written means those plants that would have been growing in a region at the time that immigrants moved in across the country. One thing he said I found interesting is that "weeds" as we know them today did not exist before the land was disturbed. Plants like dandelions were brought over as sustenance and flourished.

[catherine]

I think native plants formed a symbiotic relationship with the rest of the ecosystem, so that takes a bit of time.

According to the National Wildlife Foundation:


Native plants have formed symbiotic relationships with native wildlife over thousands of years, and therefore offer the most sustainable habitat. A plant is considered native if it has occurred naturally in a particular region, ecosystem, or habitat without human introduction.

Exotic plants that evolved in other parts of the world or were cultivated by humans into forms that don’t exist in nature do not support wildlife as well as native plants. Occasionally, they can even escape into the wild and become invasive exotics that destroy natural habitat.

Native plants help the environment the most when planted in places that match their growing requirements. They will thrive in the soils, moisture and weather of your region. That means less supplemental watering, which can be wasteful, and pest problems that require toxic chemicals. Native plants also assist in managing rain water runoff and maintain healthy soil as their root systems are deep and keep soil from being compacted.

And here is info about milkweed, from the same source--IL, you are right on:


Monarch caterpillars feed exclusively on the leaves of milkweed, the only host plant for this iconic butterfly species. As such, milkweed is critical for the survival of monarchs. Without it, they cannot complete their life cycle and their populations decline.

Indeed, eradication of milkweed both in agricultural areas as well as in urban and suburban landscapes is one of the primary reasons that monarchs are in trouble today.

[iris lilies]

I love the way the adjective “ toxic” is de rigeur in usage about chemicals used as pesticides “ Harsh” is another one.

Whenever we have these discussions in our community garden I ask for the exact compounds to be defined that are both “toxic “” harsh “ and no one one has ever able to come up with the compounds except for of course Roundup which is everyone’s whipping boy.

I will never forget the gardener who I actually like very much who insisted on using a non-commercial chemical mix on the patio at the community garden. It’s a mix of salt and vinegar.


She regularly denigrated the idea of “harsh “chemicals. Yeah I don’t know what salt and vinegar is but whatever. She was the same one who spoke of ridding a particular infestation of insect in her house by using the local bug eradication guys. As though she doesn’t understand I can’t chemical use against an insect has more likelihood to affect a human. And I suppose it depends on how with use.


And I will say this because I admit sometimes I’m wrong, the harsh chemical salt and vinegar does actually control of those weeds between the brick patio.

Oh but here is what really pisses me off—I came up to the community garden one day last year and found the carpenter bee holes in our pergola had been filled. A group of little Do-Gooders got together to rid the community garden of the colony of carpenter bees that had been there longer than they had. Really pissed me off. I like carpenter bees and I like that colony, I think they are very funny.

When I am queen of community gardens nationwide there will be carpenter bees and Roundup, by god!

[frugal-one]

Regarding Roundup... Just so you know, I am NOT a gardner ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/home/whether-or-not-roundup-is-safe-the-gardener-has-better-options/2019/09/17/8ccb8a5e-ca95-11e9-a1fe-ca46e8d573c0_story.html

[iris lilies]

Regarding Roundup... Just so you know, I am NOT a gardner ...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/home/whether-or-not-roundup-is-safe-the-gardener-has-better-options/2019/09/17/8ccb8a5e-ca95-11e9-a1fe-ca46e8d573c0_story.html
Yea, I know all this. So?

[catherine]

I love the way the adjective “ toxic” is de rigeur in usage about chemicals used as pesticides “ Harsh” is another one.

Whenever we have these discussions in our community garden I ask for the exact compounds to be defined that are both “toxic “” harsh “ and no one one has ever able to come up with the compounds except for of course Roundup which is everyone’s whipping boy.

I will never forget the gardener who I actually like very much who insisted on using a non-commercial chemical mix on the patio at the community garden. It’s a mix of salt and vinegar.


She regularly denigrated the idea of “harsh “chemicals. Yeah I don’t know what salt and vinegar is but whatever. She was the same one who spoke of ridding a particular infestation of insect in her house by using the local bug eradication guys. As though she doesn’t understand I can’t chemical use against an insect has more likelihood to affect a human. And I suppose it depends on how with use.


And I will say this because I admit sometimes I’m wrong, the harsh chemical salt and vinegar does actually control of those weeds between the brick patio.

Oh but here is what really pisses me off—I came up to the community garden one day last year and found the carpenter bee holes in our pergola had been filled. A group of little Do-Gooders got together to rid the community garden of the colony of carpenter bees that had been there longer than they had. Really pissed me off. I like carpenter bees and I like that colony, I think they are very funny.

When I am queen of community gardens nationwide there will be carpenter bees and Roundup, by god!

I've found that it's hard to get people to agree on a) food practices and b) gardening practices. Strong opinions are usually involved in any case. I'm ready to give up my post as Project Leader of the local community hall garden because it was frustrating in Year 1 to have everything second-guessed by people who "knew better."

I am on your side with the carpenter bees--and I don't think you're going to be responsible for the end of the world by using a little Round Up early in the season, but I have to say, that topic is a hot button between DH and I. Our gardening practices are almost diametrically opposed. I am vigorously no-till; last year he brought in a guy with a big John Deere to till "his" 15 x 15 garden bed. It took the guy 30 seconds. I use organic fertilizers: there isn't a synthetic fertilizer that he doesn't like. We fought every year until we realized that separate beds (garden beds, that is) were going to save our marriage.

And then there's my neighbors--who shave the lawn down to the wood, and remove every bit of vegetation lining the shore. I don't even try to change minds, because almost all of them practically grew up in this neighborhood. I've decided not to fight that battle.

[iris lilies]

I recently read Michael Pollan's book Second Nature on gardening with nature. If I understood it correctly, "native" at the time this book was written means those plants that would have been growing in a region at the time that immigrants moved in across the country. One thing he said I found interesting is that "weeds" as we know them today did not exist before the land was disturbed. Plants like dandelions were brought over as sustenance and flourished.

By “immigrants” I suppose Pollen means the western white man, as though the farming communities a thousand years prior didn’t disturb the earth. The Cahokia Indians had a population bigger than London at the time they co-existed, so they were feeding a lot of people from their fields of grain.

[iris lilies]

Myn brother-in-law was one of the pioneer researchers in No Till . He’s a PhD researcher at an Aggie college and he also does hands-on work in running multiple farms he owns.

The No Till movement is important for large scale agriculture. I don’t see how it makes much difference for tiny gardens though.

That said, I don’t “till “ exactly because I grow perennials. When I am making a new bed I till in compost/organic matter. I’m making a new big bed right now for lilies in Hermann. Certainly we are tilling some of it, but because I need deep bed preparation I’m out there with a shovel turning it over with a shovel. Tillers only address the top 6”-8”. DH who is the vegetable Meister did shovel tilling for decades before he finally got a machine tiller. So yeah, he tills his bed every year.

As for your husband’s use of chemical fertilizer: You could mention to him that I win major plant competitions that depend on high quality soil and not so much infusion of chemical fertilizers. Granted, I do use a slow release granular some years when I think about it for the lilies, but the thing they really respond to is fresh soil with organic matter, they love compost and they adore manure.

Once I used Miracle Grow as a vitamin shot in the arm for a group of lillies that were chlorotic. Yes they respond to that, but only briefly.

[catherine]

You and your family definitely have a lot of farm-cred, and even when I don't always align with the way you do things, I highly respect it.

I know that Miracle-Gro isn't evil--I have used it when I see that a shot of nitrogen is badly needed quickly, but that's about it.

As a novice in the practicalities of the plant world, I have to say I am in love with soil. Before my first permaculture class I read Tobey Hemenway's Gaia's Garden and the way he wrote about the life in the soil just hooked me. I'm far from a scientist--the closest I get to considering myself a scientist is when I have to tally data from a bunch of interviews, but I can't get over the biology that exists in what most people consider "dirt." I love adding compost to it, and I turn it over on an "as-needed" basis. My shyness and reluctance to impose myself on human beings extends to micro-beings.. I just don't want to bother them if I can help it.

[iris lilies]

You and your family definitely have a lot of farm-cred, and even when I don't always align with the way you do things, I highly respect it.

I know that Miracle-Gro isn't evil--I have used it when I see that a shot of nitrogen is badly needed quickly, but that's about it.

As a novice in the practicalities of the plant world, I have to say I am in love with soil. Before my first permaculture class I read Tobey Hemenway's Gaia's Garden and the way he wrote about the life in the soil just hooked me. I'm far from a scientist--the closest I get to considering myself a scientist is when I have to tally data from a bunch of interviews, but I can't get over the biology that exists in what most people consider "dirt." I love adding compost to it, and I turn it over on an "as-needed" basis. My shyness and reluctance to impose myself on human beings extends to micro-beings.. I just don't want to bother them if I can help it.
Has the movement to leave garden debris thru winter reached your world?

there’s a name for it but I can’t think what the name is. It’s a movement about never cleaning up your annuals and perennial stalks and flower heads, leaves, etc. leaving it all as debris in your garden. That provides habitat for bugs.


This year I did that because it’s very handy to not have to clean it up – ha ha. If any of my neighbors mention my messy garden I’m going to tell them about this new movement.


Meanwhile, I poked my friend who is organic only gardener about this new movement and she was horrified. She was very much a Nazi dictator in our community garden about cleaning up debris From dead plants because that stuff provides habitat for pest and disease. And I tell her yes, that is the idea, provide a habitat for those pests! It is The New Way to be Earth Friendly.

And she can’t grok it.

I’m glad I don’t have to be earth friendly in everything that I do, It would be exhausting.

[herbgeek]

It’s a movement about never cleaning up your annuals and perennial stalks and flower heads, leaves, etc. leaving it all as debris in your garden. That provides habitat for bugs.


I do this. I love when my laziness tendencies coincide with trendiness. :cool:

I used to do the fall rake (because Mom always did) but I always had to do a spring rake too. So it wasn't saving me any work. So now the perennials get the protection of the leaves, and yes its good for overwintering the beneficial bugs etc. And I get to cut my work in half.

[catherine]

I'm also in the "leave it alone" club, for the reasons you mention. I'm glad that a) the neighbors aren't here in the winter to complain, and b) it's all covered with snow most of the time anyway.

I don't know the name for it either--I didn't know it had a name!

[GeorgeParker]

Ref no till: A method sort of halfway between has been around for a long time. Soil aeration loosens the soil by poking holes in it or by sticking a tube into the soil to pull out cylindrical chunks. There are various ways to do it including using a garden fork to poke holes. https://www.gardeningknowhow.com/garden-how-to/soil-fertilizers/why-does-soil-need-aerating.htm Soil aeration is good when you don't want to disturb plant or tree roots or when erosion is a problem because it leaves grass and other cover crops intact and will miss most of the roots.

Of course the real secret is don't walk on your planting surface. That alone will eliminate a lot of soil compaction.

[nswef]

I leave a good bit of debris in the beds. I haven't noticed a problem. We always have corn husks to remove in the spring...so that's a good time to clean the bed. Rather hopeless in the fall.