View Full Version : HVAC contractors
Now that we're first time home buyers the fun begins. Our new place, shockingly, does not have A/C. Unlike in western San Francisco where you can count the days that get over 80 on your fingers most years, up here in central Marin county it's quite a bit warmer (which was one of the reasons we decided to move up here.) Also, the furnace in this place is original, so it's 43 years old and likely on its last legs, not to mention inefficient. I had originally intended to wait until we were a bit more settled before starting this project, but it's supposed to get up in the 90's for six or seven days in a row starting friday or saturday. Obviously we won't have a new system installed that quickly, but it's leading me to think that we may as well get this taken care of.
My question is, how does one go about selecting an HVAC contractor? Never having owned a place before I've never had to hire any sort of home improvement company.
iris lilies
9-23-20, 5:47pm
Now that we're first time home buyers the fun begins. Our new place, shockingly, does not have A/C. Unlike in western San Francisco where you can count the days that get over 80 on your fingers most years, up here in central Marin county it's quite a bit warmer (which was one of the reasons we decided to move up here.) Also, the furnace in this place is original, so it's 43 years old and likely on its last legs, not to mention inefficient. I had originally intended to wait until we were a bit more settled before starting this project, but it's supposed to get up in the 90's for six or seven days in a row starting friday or saturday. Obviously we won't have a new system installed that quickly, but it's leading me to think that we may as well get this taken care of.
My question is, how does one go about selecting an HVAC contractor? Never having owned a place before I've never had to hire any sort of home improvement company.
One method is to get on Nextdoor for your neighborhood and ask who does good work in your area.
As an aside, Nextdoor is based in the San Francisco area, not that that has any relevance here.
I don’t know how DH selected our last HVAC installation, but we put in air-conditioning downstairs and a new furnace. It was one of the big companies, that I know. For something that sizable you want to get an estimate before you hire the people.But if HVAC is like any of the other contractors, they are backed up for months. I don’t know if they are or not.
If you find us a case, then I would just go with whatever large licensed and bonded company in your area who can do your job in a reasonable timeframe.
I could quack on a bad major HVAC installers and plumbers and etc. when we were doing our gut rehab city house, but it’s not relevant to your situation. DH wanted to do a lot of the work himself and so he had to work with smaller companies who let him do that.
I'd also ask around with any folks you know.
I would hire our son who is HVAC/electrical/refrigerant certified and works in this full time. He gives us a better price than anyone and I trust him completely. He still makes good hourly wages from is - there’s no middle man.
Is there anyone like this in your friend/family circle?
We just went through this in the past year (on both houses).
The equipment in your house is very old (and, in some cases, non-existent). It's likely the house has seen significant changes in configuration (rooms opened up, rooms closed, basement finished and livable, fans added, etc.) so someone eyeballing what's there and converting that to current efficiency equipment could lead to inappropriate sizing that does not leave you feeling comfortable in the house when it's running.
You should get what's called a "Manual J" calculation. This looks at the house, siting/sun exposure, the air that moves through the house, etc., and determines the size of the equipment you need. tbh I had to press this point with the contractors I contacted (they didn't feel it was necessary), But since I had added insulation in the ceiling, two bathroom fans, and a range hood, and the house had a livable basement that was just concrete block when the original furnace was sized, I wanted a Manual J. Tell them to do it to humor some old people :) (that's what I did).
You want someone who knows local code and who will pull permits for you (and close them after inspections). It helps if they're familiar with the type of house you're in. You should check your local power utility to see if there are rebates on certain models -- for me, rebates made a 92% furnace just a couple of hundred dollars more expensive than an 80% furnace, so check them out.
Consider that there may be some diminishing returns in efficiency. Here in Minnesota, we don't use the A/C all that much, so buying the most efficient air conditioner that exists will have a very long payback time. On the other hand, we use the furnace at least 6-8 months out of the year, so increased efficiency there can make a real difference for us. It sounds like the situation may be the opposite where you are.
What doesn't really matter is the name on the furnace. There are only three or four manufacturers these days and many of them use components from the same suppliers. They manufacture the same box (60K BTU 92% efficient) and put a different nameplate on it (literally, this is all Daikin does). Not that there's anything particularly wrong with that -- it means you don't have to buy their fanciest brand to get the same basic design and parts as the top-of-the-line. There will be some features reserved for the more expensive lines, but, really, no one is going to care if the furnace says Daikin or Amana.
What matters more is the quality of the installation. Pretty much every contractor will have a preferred brand. Pick the contractor that asks questions and seems the most thorough (or who will do the Manual J for you). Then pick the brand they support. They get the best training on that brand, they should move enough of them that they have some priority/leverage if there's an issue, and they can offer warranties that non-trained/certified installers cannot. The boxes themselves are all pretty much the same. A Trane, a Carrier, a Daikin, a Rheem -- they'll all work for you.
A mid- or low-line furnace installed by competent technicians will function better and leave you more comfortable than a state-of-the-art furnace installed haphazardly. Get references. Get multiple bids if you can.
I'm loathe to trust Angie's List and HomeAdvisor but you could check with the BBB to see if the company addresses complaints well. There's also a site called Consumer Checkbook that may exist in your area and seems to offer untainted reviews of contractors; you might check them out, too. If you can call your county inspection team, try asking them if there are any contractors with whom they've had issues in installation. They won't be able to recommend a contractor, but they certainly could tell you that Acme Plumbing and Heating has not passed several inspections.
And go from there. Good luck!
If you had a home inspection done, you could ask the home inspector. I would also ask my realtor for people they like. We just did that when we needed someone to repair the polebarn after tree fell on it.
I added AC to my 50's home a few years ago and had three places offer bids. Each had a little different take on the layout and favored brands. I've had pretty good luck with Angie's list for other tradesman projects.
iris lilies
9-23-20, 9:37pm
If you had a home inspection done, you could ask the home inspector. I would also ask my realtor for people they like. We just did that when we needed someone to repair the polebarn after tree fell on it.
Contacting the inspector is a really good idea!
Make sure that the warranty is registered. My AC with a 10 year warranty quit last summer on a major holiday after 5 seasons. The contractor that I use for everything - electrical, gas, plumbing and AC- came out, verified the warranty and had the problem resolved in two days. With no registered warranty, the cost would have been $900. I was told that one of their customers had a brother who did a 'favour', free installation, for his sister but did not register the warranty.
Obviously there’s two opposite ways to go here. Ha!
I choose to trust my son and self insure. I don’t have any warranties on anything related to our house, including the house. I figure my son saves us enough that we can self insure. And he can fix anything. But we buy way below what we can afford (about 30% the price of what banks want to loan us), we buy 50-100 year old homes, we buy small and simple homes with easy maintenance, and we expect a few things to need replacement now and then. It’s part of our long term budgeting. We like to keep our house payment at about 15-20% of our net income.
The others have great advice if you’re going in the other direction ... buying a big new house at a price closer to what you are approved for from the bank. Then I can see warranties, etc.
When we replaced ours, we got three bids and recommendations. That should be enough for you to listen and then trust your gut. We replaced our 1974 furnace/central AC with a high efficiency one, and it saved a lot of money in heating/cooling costs.
For our VT house here we are looking at a mini-split to replace electric baseboard and to add AC, but that is probably not what you're looking for, but there are new options out there that I didn't even know about a year or so ago.
In my older house I was required to upgrade my electrical panel to handle the additional power load of an AC. That was a little pricey.
We replaced our furnace and central air just a few months ago and used the same HVAC contractor we'd used for routine maintenance for the past 25 years. If you're open to that you should probably find a maintenance sticker on the furnace with the contractor information on it.
Teacher Terry
9-24-20, 11:17am
We need a hot water heater because ours is leaking. My husband would like a tankless but I told him that they are 2-3 times the price from my search so not worth it.
catherine
9-24-20, 11:19am
We need a hot water heater because ours is leaking. My husband would like a tankless but I told him that they are 2-3 times the price from my search so not worth it.
Have you done a cost analysis in terms of the electricity used to keep that hot water heated all day long? We installed a Rinnai heater in VT, and we love it. We know that the hot water is on-demand, so no energy is being used to keep the water hot during the 8-10 hours a day we aren't using it. I'd at least look into it.
Ours cost about 2000 to purchase and have installed by our plumber.
I have heard about mini-splits. What do they run on? How are they different from heat pumps?
catherine
9-24-20, 12:37pm
I have heard about mini-splits. What do they run on? How are they different from heat pumps?
One of NewGig's posts was the first time I had heard of them, but I have found that there are people in my area that are installing them.
Here is one good description:
https://www.fujitsugeneral.com/us/residential/what-is-a-mini-split.html
I am interested because my house is so small and the mini-split doesn't require ductwork, and I want a back-up heating system that's not as expensive as electric baseboard heat, and also we have no air conditioning, which is fine, but if we run into super hot days, I'd like the opportunity to turn it on. This year I would have turned it on maybe 3 days.
Teacher Terry
9-24-20, 1:24pm
Thanks for the tip Catherine.
Teacher Terry
9-24-20, 5:25pm
So went to a few stores and we got a tankless for 680. It will save us 150/year in electricity. Online it said both regular and tankless were much more expensive at the same stores we went in person and so much cheaper. A regular one was only 350. I find that odd.
Lots of good advice here. Thanks. My sister, who is a lot like Steve in terms of thoroughness and thoughtfulness, also offered advice. She suggested yelp to find five contractors if I didn't have anyone local that I could ask for suggestions. Then get quotes from them all. According to her it is likely that one will be super cheap, one super expensive, and the other three all in the same midrange with the differences largely being different prices for the unit itself. Then, among the middle three, go with the one that is certified for installation of that brand. Looking on yelp was interesting. Basically all the contractors either had 5 stars or had about 3.5 stars. Almost none were in the middle and almost none were lower than 3.5. The poor reviews generally had to do with appointment scheduling problems or, more concerning, problems shortly after install that might indicate that the installer did a sloppy or incorrect job.
To answer Steve's questions, yes, it's cooling we're concerned about. We will only need the heat on rainy winter days. On sunny days we may run it briefly in the morning to take the chill off but the rest of the day solar gain will be enough heat until bedtime. And cooling isn't that critical. July, August and September the average high is 85 and the average low in the 50's. That's what it's been this week (we moved in Sunday). By opening all the windows in the evening and closing them all in the morning it's never gotten above 70 downstairs or 75 upstairs. If the weather was always average we wouldn't need/want a/c. But we can expect 25-30 days per year that are well above average, usually in chunks of 4-7 days in a row. That's when we will need a/c.
This place has definitely not been renovated beyond upgrading the kitchen significantly. (we have seen listings for still original units in the development. One recently sold for about $100k less than we paid). One thing about our unit that has changed, the original crappy windows were replaced with modern double pane windows, so we probably won't need quite as big of a furnace.
About the only thing our utility offers rebates on is if you replace a gas furnace with an electric heat pump. California is aggressively trying to push away from natural gas, so this isn't a surprise. But I am slightly surprised that there's not a program for replacing a/c's with significantly more efficient units. A lot of PG&E's territory includes parts of the state like Sacramento where it routinely gets over 100.
Alan, there is no maintenance sticker on the furnace so I actually wonder if regular maintenance has been done on it which is another reason I'd just as soon replace it. 43 years is well past the normal lifespan for furnaces.
SteveinMN
9-25-20, 12:14pm
To answer Steve's questions, yes, it's cooling we're concerned about. We will only need the heat on rainy winter days.[...] But we can expect 25-30 days per year that are well above average, usually in chunks of 4-7 days in a row. That's when we will need a/c.
Depending on what the state requires for efficiency ratings, you probably could get by with middling-efficiency units. For as often as it sounds you'll use the furnace and a/c, payback on an extremely efficient model will be many many years.
This place has definitely not been renovated beyond upgrading the kitchen significantly. (we have seen listings for still original units in the development. One recently sold for about $100k less than we paid). One thing about our unit that has changed, the original crappy windows were replaced with modern double pane windows, so we probably won't need quite as big of a furnace.
That's why you want the Manual J, especially if you pick a contractor who's worked on some of the original, non-upgraded buildings.
43 years is well past the normal lifespan for furnaces.
Furnaces rarely make it to 43 in Minnesota! If it's gotten the light use you envision giving your new furnace (and it never ran in the summer because no a/c), I can see it making it that long. The new one very likely will not, however. They've been downsized to make them more efficient. We estimate we'll have to replace ours in another 10-12 years. :(
Now that we've been living here for two weeks we've changed our mind, at least for now, about getting a/c. The daily temperature swings are pretty dramatic. The first week it got up to the mid 80's every day but down in the 50's every night. This week we had 2 days in the mid 90's, one day of 102, and the rest of the week in the upper 80's. So I've been doing what my mother did when I was a kid. We open up all the windows when it cools down in the late afternoon/early evening and then I close everything by 9:00 or 10:00 in the morning before it heats back up. This morning was the coolest yet, at 60 degrees downstairs, but we're ok with that. Our house is insulated well enough and has enough shade that the downstairs never got over 70 the first week and 75 the second week. The upstairs gets about 5 degrees warmer. 80 degrees is at the edge of what I'm willing to tolerate while working, but it's ok. And by bedtime it's been cool enough to sleep well every night. Looking through several years of daily highs and lows it pretty much always gets down to 60 or lower at night, so it will be rare that it would ever be any warmer in here. Right now for instance, it's 89 outside and 68 downstairs and 70 upstairs at almost 2pm on a day that has been bright sunny all day. It also helps that although the back of the house faces southwest, there's a big hill behind us with trees on it so we stop getting direct sunlight beating on the house about 1 1/2 hours before sunset. (That also means that we can sit out on the back patio all evening without broiling in the sun! On the warmer days we've been doing that and cooking dinner on the grill rather than adding heat to the kitchen. Extra bonus!)
I had been dubious about a/c anyway because I know that if we have it we'll get lazy and use it more than necessary, so not only would we have the cost of installing it but the ongoing cost of using it.
jp, I think that's really great if you can get by without it! Sounds like a really pleasant place to live.
I love your plan. Not sure what your humidity levels run, but here in arid Phoenix, we only cool the house to about 75 anyway. With humidity below 10% much of the summer it almost feels too cool at times. And with all we have learned with covid19, I like it when homes are opened up regularly to outside air. Outdoor allergies and wildfire smoke can make that less than feasible at times though ...
Because we’re further inland (maybe 10
miles from the ocean) than we were in the city it’s drier. That’s why we now have significantly Warner days and cooler nights.
For July and August we may buy one of those portable a/c units that sits in the room and has a big hose that exhausts the hot air out a window. They are terribly inefficient but would work for our situation. I could use it in the office if it gets too hot and then move it to the bedroom to help cool that down before bedtime. They are only like $300-$400. It would also be useful if the wildfires make us not want to open the windows.
KUPPET Portable Air Conditioner 10000BTU Cooling Fan, Dehumidifying, Energy Efficient for Rooms Up to 250 Sq. Ft, Sleeping Mode, Water Full Indication https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07FDCYTZX/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_RirEFbAZEW3XR
My son has one of those - they live at 7000 feet in northern Arizona. They only have a few days a year where AC is helpful.
iris lilies
10-4-20, 8:26am
I love your plan. Not sure what your humidity levels run, but here in arid Phoenix, we only cool the house to about 75 anyway. With humidity below 10% much of the summer it almost feels too cool at times. And with all we have learned with covid19, I like it when homes are opened up regularly to outside air. Outdoor allergies and wildfire smoke can make that less than feasible at times though ...
My dog and I have been arguing over cooled air temp. I like it at 75, he likes it at 73. He pants at 75 but not at 73. Go figure.
We lived here for 10-15 years before getting central air conditioning downstairs. These Victorians with their 11’ ceilings can mitigate the heat. I remember with our early bulldogs (our dogs live downstairs) they did ok without conditioned air, but as DH’s favorite dog aged, he got a window air conditioner for “her” little room because she suffered from the heat.
jp, that is another option, a window unit for your bedroom to aid sleeping at night.
Well, we may have overdone it with the ‘open everything up’ routine last night. Our living room was 59 this morning when I got up...
JP,you might look at a whole house fan . In hot, humid Maryland we did well for a long time with that and window air conditioners for those longer hot spells. We put in ac two years ago, had to have duct work as well and it is worth EVERY penny now that we are older and moving the window ac became too hard.
catherine
10-6-20, 11:56am
JP,you might look at a whole house fan . In hot, humid Maryland we did well for a long time with that and window air conditioners for those longer hot spells. We put in ac two years ago, had to have duct work as well and it is worth EVERY penny now that we are older and moving the window ac became too hard.
Ceiling fans are awesome. We have four in our "wee hoose" and it's one of the reasons we feel we can live without AC.
Yes, Catherine, We keep the ceiling fan on even with the AC so we can keep the thermostat higher. We only have one in the bedroom and living room.
I love the ceiling fan in our dining room. I’d consider one for the living room but since our house was built in the 70’s the only other ceiling light fixtures we have are in the kitchen and staircase so we’d need an electrician.
A whole house fan might be useful but we’re in a townhouse with neighbors on both sides so we have nowhere to install one. We may look into an openable skylight for the vaulted ceiling over the staircase. That would probably make a good chimney effect to suck hot air out and cooler air in through the windows.
I’ve also done some research on portable a/c units. There are now dual hose units that are way more efficient than single hose units because they suck in outside air through the hose rather than room air so they don’t suck warm air into one’s home. We won’t need one until next June but that is probably the route we will go, given the limited number of days we will need a/c.
jp1, don’t whole house fans go in the roof?
Our whole house fan is in the attic with the opening in the hall. I always called it an attic fan, but the box says whole house.
Normally they go in the attic on the side of the house under the peak of the roof. The attic over our townhouse has roof (obviously) but no walls that face the outside.
SteveinMN
10-8-20, 11:24am
I love the ceiling fan in our dining room.
And I had mine taken down. I didn't often eat in the dining room when it was just me here and DW and I don't eat in the dining room unless we have guests (and there are no pandemics). So the ceiling fan got good and dusty between uses and it was one of those plantation-style fans with the excessive decoration so it collected lots of dust. Switch it on without a good cleaning and it rained dust. Plus the convection tended to cool off the food faster. Couldn't wait to replace that with a lamp.
catherine
10-8-20, 12:15pm
And I had mine taken down. I didn't often eat in the dining room when it was just me here and DW and I don't eat in the dining room unless we have guests (and there are no pandemics). So the ceiling fan got good and dusty between uses and it was one of those plantation-style fans with the excessive decoration so it collected lots of dust. Switch it on without a good cleaning and it rained dust. Plus the convection tended to cool off the food faster. Couldn't wait to replace that with a lamp.
I get the dust complaint. Good thing about having a very small house is I can easily dust them with one of those long-handled dusters without a ladder. In fact, the ceilings are so low when any of our friends over 6 ft tall come in, I have to make sure the ceiling fans are shut off so I don't scalp them.
I get the dust complaint. Good thing about having a very small house is I can easily dust them with one of those long-handled dusters without a ladder. In fact, the ceilings are so low when any of our friends over 6 ft tall come in, I have to make sure the ceiling fans are shut off so I don't scalp them.I get the dust complaint too. When we built our house 25 years ago we spent what seemed a small fortune having ceiling fans installed in the kitchen, family room and bedrooms, complete with separate wall switches for fan and light. The two white ones in the kitchen and FR are dust magnets and a real pain to clean with 10 foot ceilings. This discussion has forced me to notice it's time to tackle them again. Dammit!
Teacher Terry
10-8-20, 1:47pm
We use our 3 frequently. I think it’s because of our milder climate.
I get the dust complaint. Good thing about having a very small house is I can easily dust them with one of those long-handled dusters without a ladder. In fact, the ceilings are so low when any of our friends over 6 ft tall come in, I have to make sure the ceiling fans are shut off so I don't scalp them.
I’m reminded of when my fraternity had a party at one of our brother’s house Just off campus that was empty because it was for sale. This was Miami so there were ceiling fans in every room. There was a beer pong table set up but nothing else. At one point brother B won a round of beer pong and raised his arms in triumph. The fan promptly whacked his hand resulting in a trip to the ER and a few stitches on his wrist. The party continued and later brother D did the same thing. This time, though, Brother D was uninjured but the fan blade got knocked off and went flying across the room.
Had an hvac guy inspect our furnace today. It's become clear over the past couple of weeks, with temperatures down in the 30's, that we will need the furnace more than we thought. He glanced at the furnace and said "Wow! That's pretty old." After doing various tests on it he pronounced it in fine working function but he thinks we'll want to replace it relatively soon because it will just start breaking. and breaking and breaking and breaking... I also asked him to look over our duct work. It's a mess. Half of it is up in our attic for no logical reason and hidden behind drywall. From what he could see it's obviously leaky. He also had good thoughts on whether we would want to do central a/c (it's ready but he recommended doing a pressure test of the line. Since the never used a/c line is 43 years old if it won't hold pressure we would need to start from scratch, which would include ripping out drywall so that we could install a new one.)
After 43 years of technological progress, the savings on energy for heat or cool will be considerable with a new system.
After 43 years of technological progress, the savings on energy for heat or cool will be considerable with a new system.
Indeed. Our first combined gas/electric bill was twice what we were paying in our old apartment. I assume that’s mostly because we now have an electric stove and dryer and electricity is pricey here. But once we add in regular furnace usage of an old furnace that will only get worse. Upgrading to a new more efficient furnace will likely help but I suspect that fixing the leaky ductwork will help even more.
If you go the minisplit route, will the ductwork be relevant?
Oh great question on the mini split - my son talks about this as a great option when he repairs things. I think he said mini split does not require ductwork.
Yeah, a mini split might be the right option for us. Obviously we haven't been here for a full summer yet so right now we're kind of planning to just live here and see how things go. In the spring we're most likely going to get a two hose portable a/c to use in the upstairs during the day when I'm working and try to continue doing the "open everything up overnight, close it down in the morning" routine to avoid going full on air conditioner mode. If it turns out that we really do need more a/c than that a mini split probably makes sense because the reality is that the downstairs just doesn't need much cooling. Even on days that it got to 100 outside it only got to 73 downstairs by late afternoon. During the long days of summer it may get a few degrees warmer. But if we have a/c upstairs, whether a portable unit or a mini split, some of the cool will spill down the stairs to make it fine down there as well.
Replacing the ducts is a completely different issue. And also one that I want to wait on until we've lived here a while. My guess (fear) is that a lot of heat is getting delivered to our attic and lost. My other guess is that we don't really need a lot of heat delivered upstairs. Time (and a cold gloomy winter if we have one this year) may change my mind on that. For the time being I've actually bought two magnetic vent blockers for the secondary bedrooms. (my work office and my personal den). If we go through the whole winter without me removing them to let heat in the rooms I will be inclined to have the hvac guy just remove the ducts to those rooms entirely when they replace the furnace.
And now it's two years later and today I scheduled our hvac guy to come out and do a safety inspection of our now 45 year old gas furnace... In the interim we've lived through two years in this house and learned a few things.
One, we need far more heat than we expected. In winter I've got the thermostat set to 64 overnight and during the day, and 68 from 5:30-7:30am and from 5pm-7pm. That warms things up enough that SO doesn't grumble when showering and getting ready for work and again when we're watching tv/eating dinner in the evening. The rest of the day and overnight the temperature inside gradually falls but it wouldn't matter whether we have the thermostat at 64 or 40, it pretty much only runs during the four hours/day it's set at 68.
Second, we need central a/c. We had a six day heat wave over labor day where it got up to 110 everyday and only down to 60 overnight and it was still over 80 outside at bedtime. I bought one of those portable a/c units (12,000 btu) I mentioned upthread and that's fine for keeping my office tolerable on hot days (office faces SW so gets major afternoon sun) but it's not enough to keep the whole house livable during a major heatwave. And whenever we go to sell this place having central a/c will be a major selling point.
Third, when talking to hvac guy today about replacing everything he suggested a hybrid system that is both high efficiency heat pump and gas furnace. With the rebates for converting to electric heat that are available in California this option wouldn't cost much more than a new gas furnace and standard central a/c unit. The idea is that we could then use the gas furnace on cold mornings when heat pumps are less efficient and then the heat pump in the afternoons when outside temps are warm enough to make that the more economical option. (he suggested that it would actually make more sense economically to schedule the afternoon reheat of the house to start a couple hours earlier when outside temps are warmer).
Fourth, I don't know if I mentioned this in a different thread, but at some point not too long after we moved in one of our neighbors shared with us that the original owner of our townhouse installed a pot grow room in the attic. He screwed with the furnace ducts to get all the heat up there which is why our ductwork is such a mess. Whatever decision we make about our new hvac system replacing the ductwork completely will be a part of it. Hvac guy says that with modern, insulated ductwork and modern blowers the heat/cool will get distributed much more efficiently and quietly. If nothing else our current blower uses probably 150 watts of electricity compared to 15-20 watts for modern blowers.
I've typed all of this to ask, has anyone here switched from a gas furnace to a heat pump? If you have do you have details about how much gas you were using compared to the amount of kwh's the heat pump used? Our natural gas rates are comparable to the rest of the country but our electric rates are absurdly expensive ($.31/kwh) so I'm dubious that a heat pump will be the most logical choice economically. I suppose if we can install a hybrid system without dropping much money up front we can do a comparison and stop using the heat pump if it doesn't make sense, but I'd like to try and get some sort of real world examples ahead of time if possible.
Finally started having hvac folks take a look at things and quote replacing the furnace and add central A/C. After crunching the numbers, based on our electric and natural gas rates, a heat pump is the clear winner cost wise. Not only will we save the cost of a $2500 gas furnace, we'll be eligible for some amount of electric conversion rebates, and the electricity cost for a 3 ton heat pump is about $.61/hour to operate it, vs. $.86/hour to operate an identically sized 95% efficient gas furnace. And apparently the new heat pumps are quite remarkable. They can handle temps down into the single digits just fine without losing much efficiency (the coldest we've seen in 2 1/2 years is 27 degrees), and high efficiency units (SEER 18 is what the best quote has) aren't dramatically more expensive. The increased cost will pay for itself in a few years of utility savings.
Finally started having hvac folks take a look at things and quote replacing the furnace and add central A/C. After crunching the numbers, based on our electric and natural gas rates, a heat pump is the clear winner cost wise. Not only will we save the cost of a $2500 gas furnace, we'll be eligible for some amount of electric conversion rebates, and the electricity cost for a 3 ton heat pump is about $.61/hour to operate it, vs. $.86/hour to operate an identically sized 95% efficient gas furnace. And apparently the new heat pumps are quite remarkable. They can handle temps down into the single digits just fine without losing much efficiency (the coldest we've seen in 2 1/2 years is 27 degrees), and high efficiency units (SEER 18 is what the best quote has) aren't dramatically more expensive. The increased cost will pay for itself in a few years of utility savings.
We had ours installed in September and we LOVE it. We only have one unit for our small, one-story house and it has saved us from $150-$180 a month in electric bills. That's not including the savings in not having to burn as much wood. We used to burn wood almost all day--this winter our routine was to just burn it between 3-10pm. We have absolutely no regrets. And we live in a very cold climate--of course we have our wood stove as back-up but there was only one weekend when it was -22 when we had to have both going.
We had ours installed in September and we LOVE it. We only have one unit for our small, one-story house and it has saved us from $150-$180 a month in electric bills. That's not including the savings in not having to burn as much wood. We used to burn wood almost all day--this winter our routine was to just burn it between 3-10pm. We have absolutely no regrets. And we live in a very cold climate--of course we have our wood stove as back-up but there was only one weekend when it was -22 when we had to have both going.
Thankfully coastal California never gets anywhere near -22 degrees. I have only experienced that once as a teenager and never need to relive the experience. :-) I hope to spend the rest of my life here. I grew up in Denver and lived in the NYC/NJ metro for 18 years. If I never see snow again I will be perfectly happy with that. The sprinkles of snow that I saw when I was in chicago for work a few weeks ago were enough for me!
Thankfully coastal California never gets anywhere near -22 degrees. I have only experienced that once as a teenager and never need to relive the experience. :-) I hope to spend the rest of my life here. I grew up in Denver and lived in the NYC/NJ metro for 18 years. If I never see snow again I will be perfectly happy with that. The sprinkles of snow that I saw when I was in chicago for work a few weeks ago were enough for me!
Haha, I only mentioned it because you will probably never have to worry about how much cold the heat pump can handle! Yes, that was a COLD weekend, and it happened to be the weekend that DH had to travel to NJ. I truly felt like a pioneer woman, up all night every hour checking water pipes, stoking the fire, hanging woolen blankets over the drafty doors, bundling up to fetch more wood...
Maybe because my ancestors were early hardy Mayflower-era New Englanders, I actually found it exhilarating in a weird way. That being said, I do love the heat pump and the comfort and convenience it brings. Good luck with yours!!
Haha, I only mentioned it because you will probably never have to worry about how much cold the heat pump can handle! Yes, that was a COLD weekend, and it happened to be the weekend that DH had to travel to NJ. I truly felt like a pioneer woman, up all night every hour checking water pipes, stoking the fire, hanging woolen blankets over the drafty doors, bundling up to fetch more wood...
Maybe because my ancestors were early hardy Mayflower-era New Englanders, I actually found it exhilarating in a weird way. That being said, I do love the heat pump and the comfort and convenience it brings. Good luck with yours!!
Thank you. Honestly I think we're both more excited about the comfort that the A/C aspect of this will bring to our lives. Like I snarkily said to SO when the first quote for the new system came in ($16,000) "I could buy you a lot of sweaters for that much money". But both of us remember last labor day when it was seven days of high temps well over 100 degrees. Most of the time it's fine here but that week was pure misery. Normally It's cool enough at bedtime to sleep with windows open because it's down in the 60's by bedtime. That week it was still over 80 at 10:00 pm every night after being over 100 during the day.
iris lilies
4-6-23, 9:49am
Is a heat pump the same as a mini split? Anyway, we have one of those units in our sunroom and I can’t imagine that it will be able to keep up with hot humid St. Louis summers. But I envision the sunroom is more of a fall winter spring room. we can hang out in the central living room during super hot days
A mini split is a heat pump but not all heat pumps are mini splits. Ours will be connected to a central air handler and duct work throughout the house just like the current gas furnace we have.
Ours is going to act as an air conditioner also, and I'm looking forward to that. Most of our neighbors have AC, but generally you don't find AC in Vermont homes--at least you didn't up until recently. We were pretty resolute about not getting AC, but since the heat pump is a "twofer" we'll happily accept it, but use it only when really necessary. We like keeping doors and windows open, and we don't mind feeling a little warm. On hot nights, it can be very uncomfortable, but we only get those really bad nights a handful of times every summer.
Catherine, what exactly did you get? I need to price out a new furnace, and if yours can handle where you are, it can handle where we are. Is it a mini split? Does it have ductwork? What is it called? It's a heat pump, right? What is the brand, etc?
It's a Mitsubishi and I think the model # of MFZ-KJ09NA but there are 3 other model #s listed on the manual so I don't know exactly which mine is.
This is the exact one: https://www.ecomfort.com/Mitsubishi-MFZ-KJ12NA-U1/p68731.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjw27mhBhC9ARIsAIFsETE9WlQ2 7DbzlMgpt0zQ5Uzcg8PzFYOuy41QJxi-WFUhEtivBPAmT00aAl9eEALw_wcB
We planned on getting the more traditional units that are installed up at the ceiling, like this one: https://www.mitsubishi-electric.co.nz/heatpump/c/10820/standard-gs-high-wall-heat-pumps
But, we have absolutely no wall space wide enough for it, so we put had it installed on the floor in our living area. You can't even really see it because our walls are off-white and I have a light coffee table in front of it. There is no duct-work. They simply drilled an opening to an outdoor short duct that connects to a compressor outside. DH built a cover for it because it's in the front of our house and isn't very attractive. But once the summer comes and my plantings spring up and I paint the cover, you won't even know it's there.
I honestly don't know the difference between "heat pump" and "mini-split".. mine is a heat pump.
A mini split is essentially a self contained unit that functions the way a wall or window a/c unit does, but the inside and outside sections are "split" apart. In other words it's one machine but in two pieces connected only by the refrigerant plumbing. There is no ductwork running round the house. As opposed to a central system where you have a compressor outside that is purchased as a standalone unit and then you purchase an "air handler" separately that is installed inside your house with standard ducting running to registers in each room that you want to heat or cool.
Thank you, Catherine. So since my house is twice square footage, I am guessing I would need one upstairs and one downstairs, or something like that? Currently we have ducted oil heat with no heat running upstairs, which absolutely sucks.
iris lilies
4-6-23, 8:11pm
Thank you, Catherine. So since my house is twice square footage, I am guessing I would need one upstairs and one downstairs, or something like that? Currently we have ducted oil heat with no heat running upstairs, which absolutely sucks.
My knee jerk reaction was “what!!! No heat upstairs?.?,!!” But then I remembered that DH grew up in an old house in northern Iowa with no heat upstairs. I have slept there in December and January. It didn’t really make a big impression on me, the cold. but agreed I wouldn’t want it every day.
When we bought our house five years ago, the inspector said the furnace something or other was cracked so the seller replaced the whole unit before we moved in. We think about putting in AC but it seems like a lot of money for maybe a month of uncomfortable hot weather. On those nights, we go down two floors to sleep in the basement which is 15 degrees cooler. If we do add AC, we will go with a mini-split in the master bedroom area only.
Depending on how many btu’s you need they do make 2 zone mini splits that have two of the inside units connected to one compressor outside. I’m not an expert but I don’t think they make them bigger than 2 ton (24,000 btu’s) which may not be enough capacity depending on where you live. (For reference in temperate northern CA we’re probably going with a 3 ton unit to heat/cool a 1600 sq foot home). The hvac contractor will advise on size based on the particulars of your house.
I used to think we didn’t need air conditioning but am thrilled to have it. Climate change has radically changed the weather. That, and getting older, has changed my perspective.
I used to think we didn’t need air conditioning but am thrilled to have it. Climate change has radically changed the weather. That, and getting older, has changed my perspective.
That first sentence reminds me of my grandparents in the early 80's. They were in their early 80's by then and lifelong farmers in SW Missouri. They lived in a well kept but VERY basic old old farmhouse way out in the country. All their lives they had just lived with the summer heat/humidity as part of life. Then one year they bought a window A/C for their bedroom and it blew their minds how nice it was. The next spring they hired a contractor to install a full central air system for the house. This required an upgrade to the utility's transformer at the edge of their property to handle 220 service to their house but they willingly paid the cost and were absolutely thrilled with the result.
I can't help but wonder what happens when we all NEED air-conditioning. Lots of condensors pulling on the power grid and compressors heating up the outside temp further.
I can't help but wonder what happens when we all NEED air-conditioning. Lots of condensors pulling on the power grid and compressors heating up the outside temp further.
I'm sure it'll be fine. It's just weather. That's what I've learned from my republican "friends". It may be a bummer for people at the lower end of the financial spectrum but they were probably gonna die of something anyway...
I remember living in southern Florida and the projects nearest me didn't have air conditioning. I moved down with a car with no A/C and would drive to job interviews with all the windows down and in just an undershirt, but still be sweating, have paper towels to try to wipe off the sweat, put on a shirt, go into the building already drained.
I hate Florida as a result.
But "green" liberal elites in San Francisco gotta have their A/C and jet around the country. The problems in the world are all from the peon class in Florida not wearing masks in that heat.
I can't help but wonder what happens when we all NEED air-conditioning. Lots of condensors pulling on the power grid and compressors heating up the outside temp further.
The only time we use the air is when there is extreme humidity or extreme heat. Even in TX, when others had the air going, we had the windows open. I love fresh air but as I get older extremes in temperatures, be it hot or cold, is no longer tolerable. I make no apologies.
Yes, to me air conditioning comes down to one of the MANY things we, as a first-world branch of the human family, think we need, but we don't. We don't NEED air conditioning to survive. I do think "need creep" is a threat to the planet. However, air conditioning does make life more comfortable, and will probably become more of a true need, especially for those living in certain areas, like Florida and the Southwest.
It’s interesting how wants and needs creep together. Since I am planning that my next car will be electric I like to read about the pluses/minuses of EV’s. Facebook has figured this out about me and serves up a lot of articles about EV’s from various sources. The comments on most of them tend to be either staunchly pro-EV or staunchly negative. One of the common negative comments is that they are powered by coal. After realizing that this was a common thought I looked into where my electricity comes from. PG&E, one of the major utilities here, which covers much of the northern half of the state gets precisely zero of their electricity from fossil fuels. It is entirely from renewables (solar and wind), hydroelectric, and nuclear. This probably accounts for why we pay $.31/kwh for electricity. Frankly I’m willing to pay one of the highest electric rates in the country if it means not contributing to global climate change since that means that I don’t have to feel guilty about using a little bit of a/c on the hottest days of the year since that a/c isn’t causing an increase in CO in the atmosphere. Unlike people who live far from work and drive their fossil fuel vehicles to get to their job.
It’s interesting how wants and needs creep together. Since I am planning that my next car will be electric I like to read about the pluses/minuses of EV’s. Facebook has figured this out about me and serves up a lot of articles about EV’s from various sources. The comments on most of them tend to be either staunchly pro-EV or staunchly negative. One of the common negative comments is that they are powered by coal. After realizing that this was a common thought I looked into where my electricity comes from. PG&E, one of the major utilities here, which covers much of the northern half of the state gets precisely zero of their electricity from fossil fuels. It is entirely from renewables (solar and wind), hydroelectric, and nuclear. This probably accounts for why we pay $.31/kwh for electricity. Frankly I’m willing to pay one of the highest electric rates in the country if it means not contributing to global climate change since that means that I don’t have to feel guilty about using a little bit of a/c on the hottest days of the year since that a/c isn’t causing an increase in CO in the atmosphere. Unlike people who live far from work and drive their fossil fuel vehicles to get to their job.
Oh those evil peons who have to go to work in person because they're not part of your laptop class. Can you pour a little more scorn and disdain on them, maybe while they're delivering your Amazon packages to you so you can cower in your house afraid of a respiratory virus you might catch from the wretched refuse yearning to breathe free without masks?
It’s interesting how wants and needs creep together. Since I am planning that my next car will be electric I like to read about the pluses/minuses of EV’s. Facebook has figured this out about me and serves up a lot of articles about EV’s from various sources. The comments on most of them tend to be either staunchly pro-EV or staunchly negative. One of the common negative comments is that they are powered by coal. After realizing that this was a common thought I looked into where my electricity comes from. PG&E, one of the major utilities here, which covers much of the northern half of the state gets precisely zero of their electricity from fossil fuels. It is entirely from renewables (solar and wind), hydroelectric, and nuclear. This probably accounts for why we pay $.31/kwh for electricity. Frankly I’m willing to pay one of the highest electric rates in the country if it means not contributing to global climate change since that means that I don’t have to feel guilty about using a little bit of a/c on the hottest days of the year since that a/c isn’t causing an increase in CO in the atmosphere. Unlike people who live far from work and drive their fossil fuel vehicles to get to their job.
All these choices are a series of trade-offs for sure. It comes down to each person's "less bad"--and as you learned, jp, sometimes the "bad" is under cover--so we think we're doing the best thing for the planet, but there's a hidden backstory. There are no truly green renewables, because they all take a LOT of mining, manufacturing with steel and concrete, and encroachment on wildlife. I don't think we need to feel guilty about our choices, as long as we are making them in awareness and mindfulness. We are trapped in a culture that currently demands that we pollute, exploit, destroy while warming the planet in order to maintain our way of life. Luckily there are more and more people that are actively working toward solutions.
In my city I have questioned why we have a development department since development is not green. I speak up against purchases of SUVs for the city fleet. Am trying to get green burials in our cemetery and stop PFAS and fluoride contamination. There are societal biases in favor of consumption as Catherine notes, and I think trying to change things at the system level is better than sitting in one's privilege looking down on other people.
Planning my staycation for next month. Every year I vacation closer to home. This year it will be 50 minutes drive time or less in my car getting 45 - 55 mpg depending on the season, oh jp who loves to sneer at me from his jetplane.
That is impressive gas mileage!
Planning my staycation for next month. Every year I vacation closer to home. This year it will be 50 minutes drive time or less in my car getting 45 - 55 mpg depending on the season, oh jp who loves to sneer at me from his jetplane.
So you're spending your vacation closer to home than your job that you drive to 5 days a week, year in and year out? woohoo! Good for you!
ApatheticNoMore
4-8-23, 6:35pm
I could try to explain to people living in single family homes that while a decently designed home is sometimes cooler inside than the outside temp, your average apartment can often be 10 degrees or more hotter INSIDE than the outside temp.
As noted by apatheticnomore in the 15 minute thread, most people can't just snap their fingers and live near their jobs. And it's only a certain nonessential class that can sit at home on their laptops. The farmers and truckers and daycare workers and nurses and grocers and police officers and firefighters and doctors and - since this the HVAC thread the plumbers - all got up and went to work every day and it does not make them less virtuous because they had to commute. If anything they should be thanked by those who got to sit on Zoom in their pajama bottoms.
Not to derail the thread, but we did a cool old White Mountain jigsaw puzzle of a map of New Hampshire with local attractions--it's at least 40 years old, but we are going to try to go to all the places on it, and see if they are still there. Beginning with Polly's Pancake Parlor, which is still there!
ApatheticNoMore
4-9-23, 1:32pm
The thanking should go both ways, those who went to work can thank those who sat in their pajama bottoms for less spread of covid at the time before vaccines (surely there would be more spread if they had been out and about at work more, so it definitely would not have improved the situation). And though it's a more minor point except to anyone driving it haha, also less traffic.
But all of it was total luck of the draw. Like there are those who could have worked from home whose employers forced them in anyway. All luck of the draw and what employer you ended up with when the music stopped then. My partner theoretically could have worked from home, they never allowed it. He's probably going to lose that job anyway (along with others there). I told him again and again those were bad people he worked for and not be trusted (and not about wfh). Mine allowed work from home and still does mostly because there isn't enough office space and they hired someone in my group during the pandemic days with a brutal commute (of the type I would NEVER take because although I've done hour each way commutes many times, some commutes are worse than that and just not doable at all IMO, like the type I wouldn't consider even after months of unemployment because 3 hours or more of your life a day, stuck in almost unmoving traffic, 5 days a week. is just too much. But I can move? Well, I want to live somewhere where I am able to see my partner for one thing).
happystuff
4-11-23, 9:02am
Not to derail the thread, but we did a cool old White Mountain jigsaw puzzle of a map of New Hampshire with local attractions--it's at least 40 years old, but we are going to try to go to all the places on it, and see if they are still there. Beginning with Polly's Pancake Parlor, which is still there!
What a fun way to pick some travel destinations!
It does seem a little odd that someone would choose a thread where I’m getting rid of an inefficient fossil fuel heating system and replacing it with a high efficiency system that is powered entirely by renewables and nuclear as the point to question the rest of my carbon footprint. Maybe if they didn’t spend 10 hours/day in their car getting to their trivial job it might make sense…
It does seem a little odd that someone would choose a thread where I’m getting rid of an inefficient fossil fuel heating system and replacing it with a high efficiency system that is powered entirely by renewables and nuclear as the point to question the rest of my carbon footprint. Maybe if they didn’t spend 10 hours/day in their car getting to their trivial job it might make sense…
My job is an essential job which is why I go to work every day. Your job on the other hand is a paper pushing leech job serving the capitalist overlord class by safeguarding the gains they get off the people who actually do the work in this country. Maybe hop in your car (because you have one too) and drive to one of the valleys in your state and meet the people picking the crops you eat. You don't have to jet across the country to broaden your horizons, you just have to shed your class biases.
My job is an essential job which is why I go to work every day. Your job on the other hand is a paper pushing leech job serving the capitalist overlord class by safeguarding the gains they get off the people who actually do the work in this country. Maybe hop in your car (because you have one too) and drive to one of the valleys in your state and meet the people picking the crops you eat. You don't have to jet across the country to broaden your horizons, you just have to shed your class biases.
Tell your boss to cancel the cyber insurance and then when your network gets shut down with ransomware come tell us how that all worked out for your employer.
Tell your boss to cancel the cyber insurance and then when your network gets shut down with ransomware come tell us how that all worked out for your employer.
Already happened and we were down for a day and a half and had to change our passwords. Life went on.
iris lilies
4-12-23, 9:28am
My job is an essential job which is why I go to work every day. Your job on the other hand is a paper pushing leech job serving the capitalist overlord class by safeguarding the gains they get off the people who actually do the work in this country. Maybe hop in your car (because you have one too) and drive to one of the valleys in your state and meet the people picking the crops you eat. You don't have to jet across the country to broaden your horizons, you just have to shed your class biases.
I dunno Jeppy, when jp jets across the country, he seems to come often to Missouri which apparently makes him miserable because he hates it and takes every opportunity to dis it. I don’t think the jetting is much fun for him given his hatred of my state. He just sucks it up for his SO. And, to get plastic bags for used cat litter.
Does that sound like fun to you? :)
While I agree that it’s probably no one’s idea of fun to clean a cat box the alternative of not doing it is far worse.
iris lilies
4-12-23, 11:37am
While I agree that it’s probably no one’s idea of fun to clean a cat box the alternative of not doing it is far worse.
In the two year span when we had no cats, our pile of plastic bags did get rather large.
now we have cats again so we use more of them. I still make a pile to drop off to Goodwill.
During the years I was moving hundreds of plants, those plastic bags came in handy for keeping cultivars separate. I do not plan to move plants at that level of disruption ever again.
Yes, to me air conditioning comes down to one of the MANY things we, as a first-world branch of the human family, think we need, but we don't. We don't NEED air conditioning to survive. I do think "need creep" is a threat to the planet. However, air conditioning does make life more comfortable, and will probably become more of a true need, especially for those living in certain areas, like Florida and the Southwest.
Try living in a typical suburban apartment with windows that face east. Ground floor with big double hung windows. Would you want to leave your windows open all night with easy access? I’ve been a fan of cold ac since I was a kid. We were unusual in my neighbor in the 70s that we had central ac, but an uncle was a hvac guy and installed it at a huge discount. Between allergies, heat intolerance, and hot flashes, there’s no freaking way I’m going without ac in humid Midwestern summers. Heat stays at 60 in the winter, ac is about 67 and it’s shut off totally when I’m not home. Small place cools down quickly.
happystuff
4-16-23, 9:09am
Going on 33 years in this house and no a/c. Some days are better than others, but so far we have survived any and all heat waves.
Our HVAC contractors finished the install a couple of weeks ago. It's been unseasonably cool here, and even when seasonable we don't generally need a/c in June. It gets down in the 50's at night so with opening the windows overnight and closing them in the morning it stays comfortable in here most days. The past two summers typically I only used the portable a/c in my office when it got over 90 outside because my office, which faces SW, generally gets up to about 10 degrees below the outside high temp. Even then we've always been able to turn it off before bed and just open the windows overnight. The exception was the week of labor day last year when it got up to 110 everyday for a week or so and only got down to the mid 60's by sunrise. Hopefully that extreme isn't going to become a normal part of our life. All that to say, other than when the contractors finished their work and tested it for a half hour we've never used it and probably won't for a while. It was nice getting a PG&E bill the other day that was "only" $155.
One of the side benefits of this project is that we moved the HVAC air handler from a closet near our kitchen where the old furnace was up into our attic. This is going to allow us to rearrange the kitchen/downstairs bathroom hallway area to improve the kitchen/pantry layout and increase storage space for the kitchen, basically doubling pantry space. While we're having that done we're also going to have contractor stack the washer/dryer in our downstairs powder room and build a linen closet space where the dryer currently sits. We're super excited about how much better this will work for us and it will leave us with just two more projects before we're officially "done" with upgrades to this house.
That sounds really great!
I sit here with the ac going at 68. I can’t stand being hot and it’s been humid even though cooler.
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