Hunting

[catherine]

As I've mentioned, my neighbors are great people, but culturally distant from us. We moved up here from suburban NJ. They are self-described "rednecks" and proud of it. We love each other as friends and neighbors and we coexist wonderfully.

Today my neighbor posted on FB a picture of her 14 year old son who bagged a bear today. It looked like a young one, but what do I know? This boy is very skilled at many things, and he's a really good kid.

But I had such a negative visceral reaction to that picture. My friend captioned the picture with "no negative comments please." He doesn't deserve negative opinions. At the same time, I have a hard time being happy for him.. I'm happy for his skill and for his family's pride. But when I look at that bear, as a suburban mom not raised in that lifestyle, I have a hard time with it.

I have an herbalist friend who is totally into permaculture. He foraged for food for a long time. A couple of months ago he said that he was learning how to hunt, because in nature, if you want to live off the land you eat what you kill. So many of us choose to eat styrofoam packaged meat and are fine with that but are revolted by the idea of killing our own food. This is a problem with civilization as I see it. We are miles removed from the reality of how our food gets to our plate. I personally applaud the decision of my herbalist friend to kill his food, and I applaud my neighbors who kill deer and then butcher it themselves in an outbuilding in their yard and eat it. But it's still such a foreign concept to me. I don't want to face the animal I'm eating--which is why I was vegetarian for so many years.

What do you think about hunting? How do I respond to my friend? Could you kill your food if you had to? Does the idea of killing influence your eating habits today? Do you think that the divide between the hunters and [supermarket] gatherers is an issue?

Peace Pilgrim once said that if she couldn't personally kill the food she ate, she couldn't expect someone else to do it for her, so she was vegetarian. At the same time, in nature, little fish are eaten by big fish. Slower animals are eaten by faster animals. So do I need to get over my revulsion of seeing a 14 year old boy holding up the head of a dead bear? And if I can't get over it, isn't it wrong for me to eat meat that has been killed for me?

Just a few philosophical questions.

[Tammy]

I grew up hunting and eating game. Shooting from afar with a bullet I can do.

But one time I needed to kill a fish and couldn’t do it. Because you kill a fish by hitting it on the head with a hammer.

It’s a conundrum.

[Yppej]

To answer your questions: I would not respond to or say anything about the dead bear or to your herbalist friend.

If I were starving I might be able to kill to eat. I might even eat human flesh like the Donner party did.

Yes, the idea of killing influences my eating habits. I am a vegetarian.

I do not think the divide has to be an issue. Different strokes for different folks.

If you can't get over your revulsion is there a setting in FB where you can hide that particular image? Still eating meat may be hypocritical but most people are not consistent. Why did you stop being a vegetarian? Have you tried the latest alternatives? I saw Quorn on sale this week and picked some up to try. There may be new products you like that have come to market since you resumed eating meat.

[Tradd]

Many people eat what they kill.

If the herd isn’t culled by hunting, there could be too many animals for the food source they have. Would you prefer the animals be killed and eaten or starve to death?

[ApatheticNoMore]

Are they going to eat the bear? If not I think discoursing on hunting for food is a bit off the point, if they aren't eating it, how is that relevant?

Yes I think it's fine to kill what you will eat provided the species is not endangered. No I couldn't do it. Yes, it's possible bears are overpopulated there, possible they are at risk too, I wouldn't know.

[iris lilies]

My Hermann small town newspaper features, each year, two pages of kids with their kill in deer season. The deer are draped across their laps and the kids sit up straight with their guns positioned strategically. It is Hermann culture, and the deer population is out of control.

[iris lilies]

I grew up hunting and eating game. Shooting from afar with a bullet I can do.

But one time I needed to kill a fish and couldn’t do it. Because you kill a fish by hitting it on the head with a hammer.

It’s a conundrum.

yeah I would probably be the same way. If I had to, distance killing would be do-able.

But I used to watch my dad gut fish. I could do it if DH banged them on the head first.

DH is the squirrel killer here. He traps them and then sends to a better place with a bullet in the head. Over the years, he was unable to kill some of the game. The big woodchuck hanging around one of our properties, decimating the garden was one. He trapped it and relocated it. Probably a bullet thru its head would have been kinder. He shoots rabbits when he can, but he could not bring himself to kill a nest of baby rabbits. He shoots opossums when they get themselves in the squirrel trap, but opossums are not usually destructive to our gardens. He would shoot raccoons if they were in our yard, but they hung out only at one of Our little houses with a sweet corn plot.

speaking of racoons, my neighbor down the street does waterfowl rescue and keeps ducks in her tiny city yard. She had a dramatic encounter with a ‘coon who snatched a full grown duck and ran. My neighbor managed to grab part of the duck and a tug of war ensued. She managed to get the raccoon to let go and it ran off. The duck was surprisingly ok after this.

[Alan]

I see that as a conundrum too. When I was younger I hunted squirrels and rabbits and such but when I got older I decided that I'd rather let someone else kill my food for me. My turning point came when I was in the service years ago and while wandering through an Alaskan wood with a .38 caliber pistol on my belt I wondered if I could fast draw and hit a squirrel in a a nearby tree. It turns out that I could but immediately felt guilty for doing so when I had no intention of harvesting it. At this stage of life I'd rather re-locate a pest in my yard than kill it and have been known to capture snakes in the yard and move them elsewhere. I try not to be judgmental of people who feel differently and try to remember that I'm lucky to have a choice.

I'm always on the verge of being a hypocrite though, this year we've had a problem with moles in the yard with mounds of dirt appearing almost daily and tunnels everywhere. Those little bastards are likely to turn me to the dark side soon.

[iris lilies]

I see that as a conundrum too. When I was younger I hunted squirrels and rabbits and such but when I got older I decided that I'd rather let someone else kill my food for me. My turning point came when I was in the service years ago and while wandering through an Alaskan wood with a .38 caliber pistol on my belt I wondered if I could fast draw and hit a squirrel in a a nearby tree. It turns out that I could but immediately felt guilty for doing so when I had no intention of harvesting it. At this stage of life I'd rather re-locate a pest in my yard than kill it and have been known to capture snakes in the yard and move them elsewhere. I try not to be judgmental of people who feel differently and try to remember that I'm lucky to have a choice.

I'm always on the verge of being a hypocrite though, this year we've had a problem with moles in the yard with mounds of dirt appearing almost daily and tunnels everywhere. Those little bastards are likely to turn me to the dark side soon.

Alan, wait until you have an armadillo digging up your yard. They are x-times more destructive than the moles.

In Hermann we have both moles and armadillos. Usually the armadillos do not do damage and we seldom them see them alive, just see their carcasses lying around. But this one guy was digging up our front yard last summer. In one night he did about 5 feet worth of damage.

[early morning]

We don't have a problem with hunting/eating what we (or someone else) shoot(s). Trophy hunting, or killing anything that is scarce in a particular area, is different, and I am not ok with that. Otherwise, we try not to name anything we're planning to kill and eat. We used to raise meat rabbits, and it finally got to the point that we would take them live to a small processor and he would turn them into yummy bunny brats for us. Much better for DH's mental heath - he's not good with up close and personal dispatch. I don't see us ever becoming vegetarian, at least not because eating meat is due to the death of said meat animal. I would more likely refrain from eating beef due to the environmental impact of mega-feed lots than concern for the death of the actual individual animal. Which is why we only buy beef we "know", not grocery store stuff. It's odd what motivates us, isn't it? I love cows as creatures, they are lovely animals, but that doesn't really bother me when I'm eating a hamburger. Other than food animals, we only kill raccoons, and very occasionally, a mole. Those are most assuredly NOT endangered around here, and last year my sister was attacked and bitten by a raccoon, in her back yard. Possums, skunks, groundhogs we leave be - they don't seem to harm much. And I'm glad your neighbor saved her duck, IL, without harm to it or to herself!

[happystuff]

I can see killing for the sake of eating - and I am for using as much of an animal as possible - meat, skin, etc. I think killing for the sake of killing is just wrong. There are plenty of ways to get target practice without killing anything.

[Alan]

There are plenty of ways to get target practice without killing anything.
Yes there are! If it makes you feel better I've fired 10's of 1000's of rounds at various targets since then without once harming a living thing. So, chiding at this point is probably not necessary. ;)

[Teacher Terry]

My dad hunted rabbits and pheasants and we ate them. My ex hunted deer and turkey and we ate them. We relocate wildlife now. One year a squirrel ate the entire garden except it didn’t like tomatoes:)). We eat meat. I doubt they will eat the bear and killing just for killing is disgusting. We have a bear hunt locally yet we are not overpopulated. Deer in particular tend to be overpopulated and dying from starvation is much worse. We fished all the time growing up and ate them. My folks had a summer resort on a lake so fished daily.

[happystuff]

Yes there are! If it makes you feel better I've fired 10's of 1000's of rounds at various targets since then without once harming a living thing. So, chiding at this point is probably not necessary. ;)

No chiding from my side at all; sorry if anything was interpreted as such. As for target shooting, I have always wanted to try the clay pigeons/skeet shooting. Now I'm thinking my old eyes and reflexes would not produce positive results - lol.

[Rogar]

I have hunted for food and have absolutely no problem with sportsmen hunting. There is an ugly side to it. There are a lot of city folk who rarely venture out into the country except to hunt and just don't know how to behave or use guns safely. Poachers, waste of game meat, and maybe trophy hunters. I'd like to think the bad apples are a minority. Hunters are probably good for the environment as long as they behave. They help to balance wild populations that have lost natural predators. Licenses and fees are used to manage wildlife and things like duck stamps help to preserve wetlands. I think most states require some sort of hunter education certification that includes safe handling of firearms.

[Yppej]

While I do not kill animals in nature if they get in the house I do - trap mice, sprayed for carpenter ants, etc.

[iris lilies]

I like spiders in the house and try not to kill them. But sometimes I get tired of their webs in the fall so there is a day in November where I declare webs are coming down, and the webs come down. We are snakes in Hermann and I don’t mind them. We even had a snake in the house but it died there.


A couple months ago I had a ground squirrel in the house in Hermann. I just left the front door open and went out to the garden to work and when I came back he had scampered out. We do not have ground squirrels in the city.

[pinkytoe]

In Texas where DH grew up, it was a rite of passage to go out with the men and hunt every fall. He was 16 when he finally shot a buck. When he went to retrieve the dying animal, he said he was overcome with sadness, felt sick to his stomach and never wanted to hunt again. Of course, that is not something he would ever confess to the men. My shooting animal story is that when I was 6, my mom let me and my brother watch my uncle, a butcher, kill a cow. To this day, I remember the sound of that frightened cow running down the cement ramp and watching it collapse from the bullet shot in his head. I remember that my brother however thought it was neat and saved the eyeballs in a jar until they started to smell really bad. I don't think most Americans ever think about where or how meat comes to them. I just learned from watching a PBS show that our beef is now coming from places like Nicaragua and if processed in the US does not need to show country of origin. It would take severe starvation to make me kill an animal myself and eat it.

[early morning]

There are a lot of city folk who rarely venture out into the country except to hunt and just don't know how to behave or use guns safely. True this. When I was younger, a stable I rode at had a horse shot during deer season - on posted property. After that, pastured animals were kept closer to the barn and decked out in bright sheets/blankets. I've seen people paint animals, too, but that doesn't work as well on darker horses. And sometimes even experienced hunters make mistakes - the brain is wired to see what it's looking for. We stay out of the pasture, even, during gun season, unless we're wearing red or orange.

[razz]

If one sees the feedlots and the meat processing that supply our meat, the hunting that is done is benign by comparison.

[catherine]

But one time I needed to kill a fish and couldn’t do it. Because you kill a fish by hitting it on the head with a hammer.



I can't fish... I go with DH and DS, but I turn my back even when they put the worm on the hook. Forget it when they catch a fish, and even if they are releasing it, I hate it when they are twisting that hook out of their mouth. And if they use one of those three-hook things that wind up in their bellies and eviscerate them, forget it.

[catherine]

If you can't get over your revulsion is there a setting in FB where you can hide that particular image? Still eating meat may be hypocritical but most people are not consistent. Why did you stop being a vegetarian? Have you tried the latest alternatives? I saw Quorn on sale this week and picked some up to try. There may be new products you like that have come to market since you resumed eating meat.

I'm not that revulsed.. Wait a day and I'll never be able to find that picture again on the news feed. My mixed feelings have to do with feeling sad for the bear but happy for my neighbor. I do agree that there is a good reason for hunting--keeping the population in check, or for food for the winter. The pictures that truly revolt me are the ones where people spend a ton of money to go to Africa and they wind up killing an elephant or another endangered animal for pure sport.

I stopped being a vegetarian because after 10 years I got really tired of having to make separate dinners for DH and I. He is a typical meat and potatoes guy. He won't eat a lentil or chickpea if his life depends on it. So there was very little compromise. Obviously I am still conflicted about my return to meat. I have been trying to swing back to more plant-based meals... but again, it's hard. Even if I make lentil soup, he won't eat it unless it has meat in it. And he won't even eat grassfed meat. I'd be fine with eating grassfed--we have a lot of local meat producers whose livestock have nice lives until they go to slaughter. But he has a love affair with the type of saturated fat you get from grain-fed animals.

[catherine]

I try not to be judgmental of people who feel differently and try to remember that I'm lucky to have a choice.

I'm always on the verge of being a hypocrite though, this year we've had a problem with moles in the yard with mounds of dirt appearing almost daily and tunnels everywhere. Those little bastards are likely to turn me to the dark side soon.

We had a mouse infestation issue a couple of years ago, and at first I had my little humane catch-and-release trap. But when I realized that we had a whole MouseTown living in our kitchen, I got an exterminator, and I really didn't care how they got the mice as long as my grandkids were safe.

[catherine]

Otherwise, we try not to name anything we're planning to kill and eat.

I used to get grassfed beef at a farm in New Jersey. The first time I went there, the owner walked me around to the cows and said, "Here's Missy. Here's Nellie." I couldn't imagine naming an animal headed for the kill. But I feel strongly about the relationship... and defining that relationship. If anyone recalls when Cecil the Lion was killed, there was such an outrage, and I remember reading a great article that said that if his name wasn't Cecil, would people be so upset? What if they had named the lion Adolf? Or hadn't name him at all?

When my son caught a salmon and cried over it as his dad taught him to filet it, and then we ate it, that is life. That's the relationship. We live with that if we are human and part of the cycle of life. I can accept that.


If one sees the feedlots and the meat processing that supply our meat, the hunting that is done is benign by comparison.

So my hunter friends are confronting life. OTOH, my daughter, when in a high school video class, made a video about life in a Concentrated Animal Feedlot and how savage it is and the teacher made her turn it off. That is a form of denial, IMHO.

[Yppej]

When I was married we each made our own meals as he ate meat and I did not.

[Simplemind]

Although I have not hunted myself, I come from a family where hunting was an event that all the men took part of and all the boys got to experience (and get out of school) at a young age. We ate it all (much to my mom's chagrin). Bear, caribou, elk, deer, antelope..... We also grew our own meat, chickens, rabbits, cows. We were in the 4-H programs so we learned how to butcher them at home and I did many a rabbit in my day. My dad and brother both had boats and we fished - everything within the region along with clamming and crabbing.
I'm not a fan of those that don't kill to eat it.

[ApatheticNoMore]

My bf will eat whatever I cook pretty much. That's the thing don't turn down a free cook!!! (unless they are a horrible cook I guess).

Sometimes that includes meat, sometimes it's lentil soup (a small amount of meat in lentil soup does add something in flavor, but I don't always put meat). The only meat I cook is grass fed, almost the only meat I eat as I often order vegetarian at restaurants but sometimes not. Many people actually say grass fed tastes better, I've heard no complaints, but then that would be turning down a free cook.

[happystuff]

I stopped being a vegetarian because after 10 years I got really tired of having to make separate dinners for DH and I. He is a typical meat and potatoes guy. He won't eat a lentil or chickpea if his life depends on it. So there was very little compromise. Obviously I am still conflicted about my return to meat. I have been trying to swing back to more plant-based meals... but again, it's hard. Even if I make lentil soup, he won't eat it unless it has meat in it. And he won't even eat grassfed meat. I'd be fine with eating grassfed--we have a lot of local meat producers whose livestock have nice lives until they go to slaughter. But he has a love affair with the type of saturated fat you get from grain-fed animals.

No offense intended, but I would respect dh's eating habits and expect the same respect about my own. I would expect that - if there were differences, the result being that each of us would end up making our own meals or eating what is made by the other without complaint (this is the norm - ROFLOL). Along the same line, shortly after we got married, dh asked me to iron a shirt. No problem, until it became the expectation. That is when I taught him how to iron his shirt...and his pants. He is a capable adult and has been doing it himself for over 2.5 decades. If I wasn't around, I have no doubts he would find a way to deal with these things without me.

[Tybee]

I have gone through vegetarian stages and am currently off mammalian meat but still sometimes eat turkey. I have no problem catching and eating fish, or at least did not last I tried, but I do eat fish and shellfish.

I grew up with hunting and fishing and we ate what we caught or shot.

My parents' property has yielded many deer over the years and some bear as well. They hit a point where they no longer wanted to hunt, but others brought them meat which they still ate, in exchange for letting them hunt on the property.

It was funny, my dad hunted all his life, and then said, "I am sick of killing, I do not want to kill anything anymore." So I guess your feelings can change.

I am not anti-hunting or pro-hunting, I guess. I could not kill a deer to eat but that's just where I am at, I guess. I feed by dogs mostly turkey and fish rather than meat, but my husband is allergic to mammalian protein now so that makes it easier--none of us need it around since he has a life-threatening allergy to it.

Personally, I would ignore the bear on Facebook and let that go--no need to congratulate since you are not feeling like it and had a visceral negative reaction. I'd say a prayer for the bear and for the boy, as I think that helps, sometimes, the situation.

[LDAHL]

We all live by killing. Even the strictest vegan eats food grown on land taken from other species’ habitat. If you’re alive, it’s at the expense of other life.

[catherine]

We all live by killing. Even the strictest vegan eats food grown on land taken from other species’ habitat. If you’re alive, it’s at the expense of other life.

I'm not talking about the ends.. I said in the OP that small fish are eaten by big fish and that is the way of life.

I'm talking about the means. I'm talking about how most people will breeze through a McDonald's and mindlessly eat a burger in their car without seeing the suffering of the cow that paid for it's life with $1.39 fast food. I'm talking about how, years ago, as many here have attested via their own histories, hunting was the way to feed a family. There is a relationship between the hunter and the hunted. Today, that relationship is gone. We call chunks of animal flesh "meat." We champion the lives of horses and dogs because we think they are cute, noble creatures, but animals with similar degrees of sentience are anonymous resources for the bacon on our plate. I'm talking about how there is a difference in the intention and the awareness one used to bring to this relationship between prey and predator, and civilization has quashed that. I don't even say grace anymore to thank the animals for the gift of their lives for my sustenance.

So it's about the fact, and the contradiction, that I am revolted by a bear kill by a young man, but I'm not revolted enough by the suffering of animals in factory farms. It raises questions to me about a civilized, modern consumerist life that has robbed me of the intimacy of the dance of life and death. Again, this is a personal reflection. I am not judging anyone else's thoughts and feelings.

[ApatheticNoMore]

If the bear isn't being eaten, and bear populations do not need managing, I can't see how killing the bear isn't even more gratuitous than going to megalomart and buying some beef to make burgers.

[catherine]

If the bear isn't being eaten, and bear populations do not need managing, I can't see how killing the bear isn't even more gratuitous than going to megalomart and buying some beef to make burgers.

You are absolutely right. I'm talking about hunting for food only.

[Rogar]

We all live by killing. Even the strictest vegan eats food grown on land taken from other species’ habitat. If you’re alive, it’s at the expense of other life.

It seems obvious to me that there is a large difference between killing a hog for meat and harvesting spinach, although I'm not sure I could make a reasonable argument out of it. Maybe less of a difference between killing a rat and a garden weed.

[catherine]

It seems obvious to me that there is a large difference between killing a hog for meat and harvesting spinach, although I'm not sure I could make a reasonable argument out of it. Maybe less of a difference between killing a rat and a garden weed.

Peter Singer made a distinction in his book Animal Liberation between sentient and non-sentient beings. Of course, that's a fuzzy line, too, and he wrote the book quite a while ago and now you could probably get people to say that grass suffers when we mow it, but I think in general, there is a continuum of sentience. When I was vegetarian, I would be fine eating clams, for instance.

[happystuff]

. Of course, that's a fuzzy line, too, and he wrote the book quite a while ago and now you could probably get people to say that grass suffers when we mow it, but I think in general, there is a continuum of sentience.

I have several botanist/biology educated family members who say that, yes, plants live and die, they "feel" and demonstrate responses to surrounding stimuli. Example - when you are cooking up those veggies and get the wonderful smells/aromas - that is the plant screaming as it dies. (something along those lines).

[ToomuchStuff]

A lot happened that I never went hunting (friend that was going to take me, died six months later of cancer, and a lot more, uglier stuff).
But I have been at family dinners where we had wild turkey, or deer chili, etc. I even have bought a deer rifle, but have no place to hunt (this is a big thing, because most have locations they go, with permission). A couple years ago, there was a disease that infected the deer population in MO, that several processors, were going to shut down for risk of contamination. Don't see enough people now, to know if they are back open or not.
Late boss, had property two miles from Ruby Ridge, backing to a national forest. Bears came through a couple of times and tore up the property (from knocking a big propane tank off, to trying to get into the house). I would have no issue with it if the bear were too close to your property (kids, animals, etc).

[bae]

For years, I only ate meat/fish that I had harvested myself, as I had limited access to ethically-produced meat.

Where I live now, I have better supply lines for meat. I don't hunt much here, even through there are so many deer that I often have to use the horn on the car to get out of my driveway to disperse the herd. The deer here are generally just too small to bother with butchering.

I do dispense with mice and rats that make it inside the house. Spiders get to remain.

I also have some acreage in vineyards, which I have been involved with for 20 years. There is a lot of killing involved raising grapes, even in our organic, salmon-safe, sustainable practice. I suspect that some people don't understand that simply raising crops requires slaughtering critters, or displacing them from their habitat.