What happens if Trump "wins"? [Archive]

bae

11-20-20, 3:56pm

JaneV2.0

11-20-20, 4:12pm

I'm beginning to lose faith in our people and our system; it should be self-regulating, and it clearly isn't. If Trump manages to pull off this, his ultimate grift, I'll just be thankful I don't have a huge amount of time left, because I don't have the will or energy for a full out revolution.

catherine

11-20-20, 4:14pm

I just broached the topic of politics for the first time since the election since it's a very sensitive topic in our household. I asked DH, with the disclaimer, "I don't want to get into a political argument, but...." and then asked him what he thought about Trump's behavior vis-a-vis the "transition"

Well, we agreed on one thing. DH did say "he's just being an a__h___" But, somewhat predictably, we did fall into a falling-out when it came to the election itself. His POV: a) Trump won more votes than anyone in the history of elections. I pointed out actually BIDEN won more votes than Trump, so that means BIDEN won more votes than anyone in history. DH had a hard time processing that--I don't think he realized that unlike Hilary and Gore, Trump also lost the popular vote as well as the electoral vote. And DH also felt that b) those mail-in ballots were just sent to anybody!! So it's entirely possible that .... (something bad happened to ALL the millions of votes or Trump but he couldn't articulate exactly what).

My point is, even reasonable people truly feel that their side won the election, even if that side is Trump, who, most people acknowledge, lost.

If Trump somehow wangled his way back into office, I don't know. Would there be riots? Who would mediate this mess? The Supreme Court?
I have a hard time getting inside Trump's head--I realize that as CEO of Trump, Inc, he never has to fire himself. Is that why it's so hard for him to acknowledge a dismissal? Did Fred screw him up that badly, as his niece has maintained in her book? Will the GOP finally grow a spine and put him back in the dugout?

All questions. No answers.

bae

11-20-20, 4:26pm

My point is, even reasonable people truly feel that their side won the election, even if that side is Trump, who, most people acknowledge, lost.

It does seem that a significant number of Republicans believe Biden stole the election through all sorts of election fraud.

I'm not sure if I'd reckon that belief "reasonable".

catherine

11-20-20, 4:30pm

It does seem that a significant number of Republicans believe Biden stole the election through all sorts of election fraud.

I'm not sure if I'd reckon that belief "reasonable".

But do you ascribe that unreasonable belief to any reasonable people? Yes, a ton of Republicans believe the election was stolen, and I have to believe that some of them, including my husband, are usually reasonable, but harbor an unreasonable belief that Trump was screwed out of the win.

JaneV2.0

11-20-20, 4:52pm

Teacher Terry

11-20-20, 4:54pm

The few Republicans I know believe trump lost fairly.

LDAHL

11-20-20, 5:13pm

I believe that in 2016 there were efforts to persuade electors to vote against their state’s results. Both by people wanting to stop Trump from taking office and Sanders supporters who felt Clinton sandbagged their guy. I think the legality to that approach varies by state.

frugal-one

11-20-20, 5:22pm

To answer your original question.. the best that could happen is that someone shoots him. We don't need any more chaos and angst because of that assh...e. Democracy truly will be lost.

Alan

11-20-20, 5:27pm

To answer your original question.. the best that could happen is that someone shoots him. What an awful thing to say!

frugal-one

11-20-20, 5:31pm

What an awful thing to say!

I'm sure I am not alone.

bae

11-20-20, 5:32pm

What an awful thing to say!

Plus also, I'm not sure it would achieve anything "positive". Highly likely the other way around.

frugal-one

11-20-20, 5:35pm

Plus also, I'm not sure it would achieve anything "positive". Highly likely the other way around.

You are probably right. The worthless piece of garbage just needs to be gone. He has caused enough anguish and death.

Alan

11-20-20, 5:36pm

I'm sure I am not alone.
I hate to think the desire for immediate gratification regardless of the harm to others is a normal part of civilized discourse. You guys scare me.

LDAHL

11-20-20, 5:36pm

To answer your original question.. the best that could happen is that someone shoots him. We don't need any more chaos and angst because of that assh...e. Democracy truly will be lost.

Murdering your opposition to preserve democracy?

Rogar

11-20-20, 5:39pm

A friend proposed that Trump may pull off some sort of coup by manipulation of his Republican constituents or legal conniving. My reply was that I think there would be riots. But then again, riots don't seem to be anything new. I'm sure the Patriot Boys would welcome an excuse to quell the rising tumult.

bae

11-20-20, 5:42pm

My reply was that I think there would be riots. But then again, riots don't seem to be anything new. I'm sure the Patriot Boys would welcome an excuse to quell the rising tumult.

See, that's an undesireable outcome. Various factions engaged in street warfare. Boo hiss!

Rogar

11-20-20, 5:49pm

See, that's an undesireable outcome. Various factions engaged in street warfare. Boo hiss!

Yes, it would be undesirable. I could see a side or sides as interpreting things as a threat to the core of our democratic system and election process. That is pretty dear to a lot of people.

LDAHL

11-20-20, 5:57pm

Yes, it would be undesirable. I could see a side or sides as interpreting things as a threat to the core of our democratic system and election process. That is pretty dear to a lot of people.

Part of our problem is that so many automatically label anything they disapprove of as “a threat to our democracy”. It’s become a sort of reflexive twitch. I think the Republic is sturdier than that.

JaneV2.0

11-20-20, 6:01pm

Yeah--it would just make a martyr out of the old fool.

ApatheticNoMore

11-20-20, 6:07pm

He's not an opposition in any legitimate sense, he ceased to be that when he lost the election. He's a lame duck and if he attempts to remain in office after that time, he's a man attempting a coup.

You can be upset about the talk but if there is no other way to remove the guy, if votes don't count, then what? If people can not be voted out of office even though he lost despite how stacked the system is (I mean the losses of the popular vote are massive but he still lost), then what does anyone expect? Ballots or bullets. And the coup should be stopped. Biden isn't the one attempting a coup here.

iris lilies

11-20-20, 7:10pm

A lot of them apparently don't know how mail-in balloting works; that ballots aren't just sent to everyone willy-nilly--that you have to be a registered voter to get a ballot application, that ballots must be signature-matched, etc. I agree that voting machines can be manipulated, but that kind of fraud can be watched for, and all our cyber-security people agree there were no signs of that. If he considers Rudy Giuliani (or Trump, for that matter) credible, I have nothing to say to him.

you are right, I don’t know how ballots by mail work in each state because there are different procedures.

For instance, I wonder how many applications rosa made for her household in order to get the handful of ballots that came.

ApatheticNoMore

11-20-20, 7:13pm

I made no applications. I was registered to vote. Vote by mail ballots just came in the mail.

frugal-one

11-20-20, 7:13pm

What will be the impacts if Trump somehow manages to "win" this election in a fashion that looks under-the-table?

(By leaning on election board officials to not certify votes, or by bringing state legislators to the White House and lobbying them to appoint a different set of electors than the election results call for, or by Giuliani's crack legal team pulling something extremely incredible off in the higher Courts, or ..."

Part of our problem is that so many automatically label anything they disapprove of as “a threat to our democracy”. It’s become a sort of reflexive twitch. I think the Republic is sturdier than that.

So LDAHL you think it is ok to do what Bae suggested trump could try to do?

Rogar

11-20-20, 7:19pm

I would like to think that Biden is lawyering up and calling his marks in, too. When Trump becomes a citizen he will no longer be protected from some of the various legal issues that are developing, although I wouldn't put it past him to pardon himself in advance. That probably adds a little fuel to his fight.

frugal-one

11-20-20, 7:22pm

I hate to think the desire for immediate gratification regardless of the harm to others is a normal part of civilized discourse. You guys scare me.

How do you justify Putin putting bounties on US troops and trump saying nothing? Talk about harm to others and civilized behavior? Now that is scary! To have a leader to stand for this is unconscionable! The list goes on and on.

frugal-one

11-20-20, 7:24pm

See, that's an undesireable outcome. Various factions engaged in street warfare. Boo hiss!

So what do you think would be the outcome?

frugal-one

11-20-20, 7:27pm

LDAHL

11-20-20, 7:30pm

So LDAHL you think it is ok to do what Bae suggested trump could try to do?

I think it takes being a sore loser to new extremes. I think it’s ridiculous. But I don’t jawboning amounts to a coup attempt.

JaneV2.0

11-20-20, 7:39pm

you are right, I don’t know how ballots by mail work in each state because there are different procedures.

For instance, I wonder how many applications rosa made for her household in order to get the handful of ballots that came.

Since we have universal vote-by-mail, my ballot just arrives in my mailbox. At issue were several states that sent applications to those eligible for mail-in ballots, often described by Republicans as "ballots to everybody." You can only vote once, so any clerical errors become moot.

Alan

11-20-20, 7:51pm

How do you justify Putin putting bounties on US troops and trump saying nothing? I can't justify it and have never tried, nor will I ever attempt to justify your desire to see him killed.

ApatheticNoMore

11-20-20, 7:59pm

He can probably be forcibly removed from office without being killed.

frugal-one

11-20-20, 8:18pm

He can probably be forcibly removed from office without being killed.

The optimum word is probably and the best scenario. I previously reiterated my wish for him to be gone based on the continual drama and anguish he causes. I truly don’t care how at this point.

frugal-one

11-20-20, 8:20pm

I think it takes being a sore loser to new extremes. I think it’s ridiculous. But I don’t jawboning amounts to a coup attempt.

Guess we shall see. It would not surprise me.

Tammy

11-21-20, 3:53am

The worst thing would be assassination. Civil war could ensue.

We just need to get through the next several weeks. Today Maricopa county in Arizona certified our ballots. I think it’s 5 republicans and one democrat on the committee. They found no problems with our system and certified us as a Biden win.

I didn’t have the patience for it but my husband watched the entire process today. We were impressed with our local government’s ability to work in a nonpartisan manner, following the process as defined in law and statute. This is where our country’s hope lies.

LDAHL

11-21-20, 10:06am

Guess we shall see. It would not surprise me.

It would surprise me. We seem to have let our more lurid violent fantasies overtake the reality in front of us.

ApatheticNoMore

11-21-20, 12:01pm

Well the appearance is that he's attempting to overthrow an election, and well he's a narcissist so who knows how he deals with losing. However it might also be just another grift, because he's always been a con-man and grifter if nothing else, and we decided in 2016 it was time to let a successful con-man be president afterall. So he might just be collecting money off the rubes who donate to his faux coup.

Rep. Denver Riggleman (R-Va.), one of the first lawmakers to speak out against unfounded allegations of voter fraud, said the Trump campaign’s lack of success in the courts proves there isn’t legitimate evidence to back its case.

”I feel like we're watching one of history's great grifts based on what we saw from Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani yesterday — this feels like a money-making venture,"

Riggleman added that he is disappointed more GOP lawmakers haven’t come out against the claims.

“There are smart, smart people up there that are not coming out and not identifying this for what it is, and this is simply a conspiratorial grift ... I believe it's a fundraising venture," he said. "The thing is, though, is that when you're spouting these type of ridiculous alternative facts, there are people that believe it and I think it's time for everybody to sort of rise up in the GOP and say, 'This is enough.'"
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/526986-liz-cheney-if-trump-has-evidence-for-election-claims-he-should-show-it

Remember Bannon collected a bunch of donations to build a wall, and then just made off with it. So that too is who Trump and friends are.

happystuff

11-21-20, 12:04pm

It would surprise me. We seem to have let our more lurid violent fantasies overtake the reality in front of us.

I'm thinking this can be credited to what has been deemed "reality" over the last four years, and the violence and fantasies put forth by Trump during that time. He has a fantasy of a dictator-wanna-be, and from the violence we've already seen, who knows how far the violence will go.

frugal-one

11-21-20, 3:19pm

It would surprise me. We seem to have let our more lurid violent fantasies overtake the reality in front of us.

Not true... trump has tried to get MI electors to change their minds. Now he is working on Georgia. I put nothing past him.

befree

11-21-20, 5:08pm

Alan

11-21-20, 5:24pm

If Trump actually achieved overturning the popular vote, and altering what should be the electoral college vote? Then it would mean government "of the people, by the people, and for the people" is dead. This is what I define as the death of democracy, and the beginning of an authoritarian dictatorship.But does anyone really think the election is going to be overturned? It didn't work for Gore back in 2000 and it won't work for Trump in 2020, but it is fun to talk about. ;)

happystuff

11-21-20, 7:32pm

But does anyone really think the election is going to be overturned? It didn't work for Gore back in 2000 and it won't work for Trump in 2020, but it is fun to talk about. ;)

I don't think it is "fun"... I think it is very sad.

Alan

11-21-20, 8:11pm

I don't think it is "fun"... I think it is very sad.Well, I try not to judge but people do seem to enjoy going on and on about "what if's". Maybe that's sad or maybe it's entertainment, who can say?

happystuff

11-21-20, 8:12pm

Well, I try not to judge but people do seem to enjoy going on and on about "what if's". Maybe that's sad or maybe it's entertainment, who can say?

I can certainly say that, in my opinion, it is sad.

jp1

11-21-20, 8:50pm

But does anyone really think the election is going to be overturned? It didn't work for Gore back in 2000 and it won't work for Trump in 2020, but it is fun to talk about. ;)

I suppose depending on one's perspective this could be considered "fun". Personally I just find it really depressing to learn that Republican politicians across the spectrum are so willing to throw major efforts into voter disenfranchisement in a pathetic and baseless attempt to overturn an election that their shitty candidate lost. The latest to join the lousy unAmericans parade today are Ronna McDaniel, chair of the RNC, the chair of the Michigan GOP, and some random congressdude in Pennsylvania. The whole thing is so hilarious I forgot to laugh.

And to answer your question, yes, 28% of Americans apparently believe that trump actually won.

JaneV2.0

11-21-20, 8:53pm

I wish they had finished counting in Florida (Bush v Gore) before taking the issue to the Supreme Court. We might have avoided the bloodbath that was Iraq.

happystuff

11-21-20, 8:55pm

I wish they had finished counting in Florida before taking the issue to the Supreme Court. We might have avoided the bloodbath that was Iraq.

Trump = deflection by any means versus the truth

Alan

11-21-20, 9:33pm

I wish they had finished counting in Florida (Bush v Gore) before taking the issue to the Supreme Court. We might have avoided the bloodbath that was Iraq.I'm not certain there was a way to avoid that. When Iraqi Intelligence officials attempted to assassinate Bush 41 and Saddam Hussein's policy of invading other countries and even making war against Iraqi citizens, not to mention the continued violation of UN Sanctions and refusing to allow Weapons Inspectors into the country, it seemed to most that conflict was inevitable.

jp1

11-21-20, 10:57pm

And yet again, over 30 times now, the ugly anti American assholes got swatted down. Hopefully this ugly episode in American history will finally and truly be over on Monday.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/21/us/politics/pennsylvania-trump-court-ballots.html

JaneV2.0

11-22-20, 11:25am

I'm not certain there was a way to avoid that. When Iraqi Intelligence officials attempted to assassinate Bush 41 and Saddam Hussein's policy of invading other countries and even making war against Iraqi citizens, not to mention the continued violation of UN Sanctions and refusing to allow Weapons Inspectors into the country, it seemed to most that conflict was inevitable.

There were more than a few of us that thought not. Of course "He tried to kill my daddy!' trumped not having WMD.

Alan

11-22-20, 11:46am

There were more than a few of us that thought not. Of course "He tried to kill my daddy!' trumped not having WMD.
I wonder how many of those "more than a few" followed the John Kerry path of being for it before they were against it? I also wonder if the "he tried to kill my daddy" and "Bush lied, people died" memes weren't designed by the political class to minimize the danger Saddam Hussein posed to the world and influence future voters? If so, it worked pretty well since that seems to be the only thing most people remember about that period.

JaneV2.0

11-22-20, 1:26pm

The 10,000 protesters I marched with in Seattle before the inevitable war were pretty clear-eyed about it before the fact. There were a few in Congress, too. Lamentably, far too few.

jp1

12-1-20, 7:17pm

Well, it appears that the attempted coup is not going to succeed. But team trump isn’t going quietly. Now we have his lawyer calling for the execution of a public servant. Can someone try again to explain to me how any of this is ok? Every day the farcical claims by some that they were more worried about a Biden administration than a second trump one become more and more not believable.