View Full Version : Well thought out reminders
frugal-one
11-21-20, 5:14pm
This was forwarded to me by a Canadian friend. The author was a surprise to me. YLMV
Why is it that some things we never forget and other things we never remember? I work with those ideas a lot.
But one answer I know without flaw: I had a mother who assiduously insisted that there was something to be learned in everything. I'd pour out my losses or celebrate my gains and my mother — somewhere along the way — managed to make her ever-living point: "And what did you learn from that, Joan?" she asked. Over and over again. Always.
It's a tiring exercise if you're a child. It's an everlasting path to wisdom when you get to be an adult who knows without doubt that just because you want something — a particular position, a given candidate, encouragement for a plan that failed — there is, lurking within it, a lesson.
And, note well, it will be a big enough lesson to carry you beyond where you are to where you must go if you are ever to come to wholeness.
For that unseen lesson you must be grateful.
That's where I am now. I've learned a lot from President Donald Trump in none of the ways I wanted to.
First, I want to thank Trump for exposing to us how dangerously fragile a democracy really is. What I had been taught was that our democracy — American democracy — unlike all those pseudo-systems like Argentina or Turkey or Germany in 1939, was impregnable.
People like Trump, narcissists and power-patriarchs, can simply shape our political world, not around our values, but around themselves and their personal goals, their ill-gotten gains, their blatant disregard for any values we thought had been unalterably baked into the system long before they came. On the contrary, I have begun to think that politics is a kind of while-we-slept game.
Second, Trump has shown us how baseless democracy is if it is not understood and protected by all of those who take an oath to preserve it. A presidential election is not meant to give any single person power alone. It is meant to surround a president with representatives, senators, cabinet officers and officials of conscience and character, who are first and foremost responsible for the preservation of the Constitution. They, too, are also deputized to make themselves as responsible for defending the ideals and vision of the Constitution as is the president. And so those values, that document, must be protected — even from the president if necessary.
We have seen so little of that these last four years.
Third, Trump has shown us that the makings of a coup run through every form of government, including democracy. Thanks to him, we must never be so blasé again about the possibility of the overthrow of democracy as we know it: As in, "but we're a democracy so that can't happen to us." On the contrary.
The fact is that rather than work with Congress — including his own party's Republican representatives and senators, a system as powerful as his own — he trampled them. And Republican representatives, intimidated by him they tell us now, simply allowed it. No wonder we have so few profiles in courage from this period.
Fourth, in the end, I learned that even "party" meant little to Trump. That seemed to be a refreshing thought until I realized, too, that though party did not move him, cronyism did, "loyalty" did, personal power did — in fact, personal power was his fatal addiction.
But unfortunately, he taught me too that the likelihood of members of Congress to yield to intimidation for the sake of saving their own seats and putting petty power above the welfare of the country is itself a political virus. I admit I was shocked.
I remembered the Republicans who heard every word of testimony against Richard Nixon and then themselves went as a delegation to tell Nixon it was time for him to go.
We, on the other hand, saw three — three — brave Republican senators put commitment to the country above loyalty to the Trumpism that threatened them. So, how can we trust them again?
Fifth, I am grateful to past-President Trump for demonstrating how easy it is for a president to simply pull the boat away from the shore by himself. Thanks to Trump, we learned the hard way that government by executive orders — presidential determinations neither vetted nor voted on by Congress — is not a democracy. It is at best a monarchy in disguise, a monarchy in waiting.
The executive order is a legislative tool that has been growing in popularity. In the modern era, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, in the face of a recalcitrant Congress, launched his New Deal. Worse, he also incarcerated Japanese Americans with it. Before that era, western states had been created by it.
Yet, for all intents and purposes, that approach to national legislation sank back into the shadows to be used for little more than minor issues in a world of more important debates or national emergencies.
In our time, however, those doors have been blown open again by the plague of polarization. Presidents have little power in the face of political rejection to get anything done except by taking things into their own hands. But the process deserves watching. It's Trump's executive orders on border protection, immigration and immigrants, ecological reversals, federal land usage, infrastructure and the Affordable Care Act that are clear indicators of how easy it has gotten to legislate outside of legislation.
Clearly, it is a time for serious vigilance if democracy is not to slip away, at the end of a single pen, unseen.
Sixth, I am also grateful to Trump for taking one truism out of the American vocabulary. As in, "No, I don't vote. My single vote won't change anything."
In fact, your one vote — or its lack — is still changing things.
Finally, I am grateful for the gift of reality Trump has given us as a people. He has forced us to face the difference between bullying and leading. Leaders who bully are dangerous. Full-grown politicians, whose own motives are so gross, so self-centered, that they bend to the local bully for the sake of a longer term, are selling this country out for Scripture's famous "thirty pieces of silver."
The fragility of our system, the complicity of Congressional representatives and senators to curry favor with the executive branch of government in order to secure their own place in it, the American-style monarchy in the unrestrained use of executive orders, and the common lack of citizen commitment to the privilege of voting — reflected in the glee of a 40-something mother who voted for the first time in this election — has brought this country to the brink.
May God help us all, citizens and political figures at every level, to figure out that the lesson that will make or break our future lies in realizing that politics is a seriously righteous act — a socially ethical responsibility, a deeply spiritual one. The great political question in this country now is a moral one: Are we devoted to such public morality? Are we up to it?
From where I stand, through it all I learned that the complacency of "it can't happen here" has died here these past four years. Just as it did in Munich in 1939.
[Joan Chittister is a Benedictine sister of Erie, Pennsylvania.]
She is not alone in her thinking. There is a farm that I pass by periodically who has had signs up praising Trump and all his actions to date over the past four years. I don't know this man's background or why he is doing this. But why such thinking presented by large signs in Canada? Trump is not our leader, for goodness sake. The signs were down when I went by this morning though. I wonder why?
Teacher Terry
11-21-20, 6:00pm
I didn’t expect the Republicans to continue to be afraid of Trump once he lost the election. Watching this happen shows that we don’t have enough checks and balances to prevent someone equally as evil but smarter and more charismatic to turn into a dictator.
I thought the continual references to executive orders was both timely and interesting. I think they're an effective means of accomplishing a goal but they'll always be controversial. There will always be a sizeable portion of the population in any democracy who will approve of their use under the guise that it's the only way to accomplish something they approve of when there's an opposition majority in congress. At least that was popular here during Obama era executive order discussions but interestingly the role of Congress seems to be considered more important among the same demographic these days. I consider that to be one of the most interesting aspects of politics, you just never know what people care most about until they're in the minority.
happystuff
11-21-20, 7:30pm
"Trump".. it's just a name. I still don't get it. I don't understand how such hate, nastiness, egotism, etc. could have done the damage to this country that it did. I don't understand why people think this, the anti-thesis of the basic goodness we try to teach our children from day-one, was allowed to reach such a point of acceptability in our country. I don't understand why good people allowed hatred to anyone be an acceptable behavior by anyone - let alone being done by the leader of our country. I am so confused as to why GOOD people not only allowed this to happen but also accepted it as a "good" thing! I just don't understand how anyone who calls themselves a "good Christian" or any other religion, could think these behaviors and hatreds and etc... could think this is all "good". I really just don't understand.
I think the Trump administration was a national embarrassment, but it takes a certain level of hysteria to treat it as a brush with fascism. It almost feels like the whole country has succumbed to a sort of clickbait culture and needs to overstate every argument in the most apocalyptic terms possible. Both on Trump’s part and his enemies. There was never any chance bluster was going to make America great again by reviving dying industries and slowing down illegal immigration. But I don’t think that made Trump Hitler any more than it made his enemies preening about being in “the Resistance” anything other than ridiculous.
Trump’s extravagant and inconsistent claims were silly, but so were the farcical impeachment proceedings and SCOTUS confirmation hearings. QAnon and Russian conspiracy theories competed for attention in the nutsphere. We were asked to believe that tens of millions of Americans were either socialist snowflakes or gun-clinging, god-bothering pillbillies.
It will be interesting to see where we go from here.
frugal-one
11-22-20, 11:22pm
Hopefully, with a sane leader ... life will be calmer. trump left a lot of problems and is trying to leave more by not cooperating. It will be an uphill climb but surely there will not be the constant chaos he caused.
I think the Trump administration was a national embarrassment, but it takes a certain level of hysteria to treat it as a brush with fascism. It almost feels like the whole country has succumbed to a sort of clickbait culture and needs to overstate every argument in the most apocalyptic terms possible. Both on Trump’s part and his enemies. There was never any chance bluster was going to make America great again by reviving dying industries and slowing down illegal immigration. But I don’t think that made Trump Hitler any more than it made his enemies preening about being in “the Resistance” anything other than ridiculous.
Trump’s extravagant and inconsistent claims were silly, but so were the farcical impeachment proceedings and SCOTUS confirmation hearings. QAnon and Russian conspiracy theories competed for attention in the nutsphere. We were asked to believe that tens of millions of Americans were either socialist snowflakes or gun-clinging, god-bothering pillbillies.
It will be interesting to see where we go from here.
You've done a great job of supporting team red in this response. Your ability to ignore the worst of what trump did and over-inflate the justified reaction to it is impressive. You're much more low key than Alan and as a result likely way more convincing than he is. Congratulations?
catherine
11-23-20, 11:08am
I don't think Sr. Joan's admonition was hysteria--I think it was a very well-reasoned appeal to be ever-vigilant. That slipping off the path can creep up on any group of citizens and become a movement, and that movement can overtake the fundamental values of our nation.
Trump hits a chord with many people who want certain things that by themselves are totally reasonable things to vote for: the hope of jobs and security is partly what got Trump elected. What I don't understand is how he casts a spell that gets his followers to forget about Trump's own motivations for being in office--they overlook the tawdry aspects of his character. I personally do not feel that a leader who comes to the task with a high degree of personal ambition--ambition that will throw millions of people under the bus just for his own gain--can redeem him/herself with efficacy in executing any policy or platform. Face it, all politicians are ambitious, but there is usually a balance between ambition for self and ambition to serve. In Trump's case, the degree to which good, decent people can turn a blind eye to pure megalomania, xenophobia, and mysogeny is scary to me. I don't think it should be taken lightly. I do think his behavior brushes up against fascism, but thankfully there were enough of us who recognized that and got out there to stomp it out before we found ourselves too far off the road.
I want a leader with character. I heard a Fox News reporter saying something like: "We'll see what Biden gets done. So far, all I've heard about is a change of tone."
That sounds good enough for me. A change of tone is the right first step.
JaneV2.0
11-23-20, 11:12am
"...I heard a Fox News reporter saying something like: "We'll see what he gets done. So far, all I've heard about is a change of tone."
That sounds good enough for me. A change of tone is the right first step."
With Mitch McConnell in power, he probably won't get much done, unless a sizeable number of Republicans find their spines.
My biggest concern is the courts...McConnell's crew made sure few judges were confirmed before 2016, then suddenly many were....I think it is the Federal Judges who helped keep Trump's worst behaviors in check and worry this new batch will not pay attention. I am ashamed of the Senate's acquiescence to the White House and GOP.
You've done a great job of supporting team red in this response.
I’m a believer in non-binary politics. I don’t think there really is a team red or team blue. I think those are mental constructs fabricated by those with an interest in fanning the flames of rabid partisanship. The sort of people who say “ilk” a lot, and insist that third-party votes are “wasted”.
I think that a lot of people with conservative sensibilities who didn’t consider Trump especially conservative held their noses and voted for him anyway when they considered the alternative. They didn’t do so out of racism or cruelty. They looked at all the burnt out neighborhoods and listened to the “defund the police” rhetoric and made a choice.
Nor do I think there is a monolithic blue team. Look at the debate now between the Democratic Party leadership and the social justice Jacobins over the role hard-left rhetoric played in the disappointing congressional election results. From what I’m reading, the “Squad” is unlikely to approve of Biden’s early cabinet picks.
I think we are a much more complex nation than colored maps can indicate.
frugal-one
11-23-20, 4:11pm
I’m a believer in non-binary politics. I don’t think there really is a team red or team blue. I think those are mental constructs fabricated by those with an interest in fanning the flames of rabid partisanship. The sort of people who say “ilk” a lot, and insist that third-party votes are “wasted”.
I think that a lot of people with conservative sensibilities who didn’t consider Trump especially conservative held their noses and voted for him anyway when they considered the alternative. They
Nor do I think there is a monolithic blue team. Look at the debate now between the Democratic Party leadership and the social justice Jacobins over the role hard-left rhetoric played in the disappointing congressional election results. From what I’m reading, the “Squad” is unlikely to approve of Biden’s early cabinet picks.
I think we are a much more complex nation than colored maps can indicate.
Whether you like to think so or not... jp1 pegged you correctly based on previous and recent responses. You see yourself not as others see you.
Whether you like to think so or not... jp1 pegged you correctly based on previous and recent responses. You see yourself not as others see you.
If you are locked into binary thinking, everything must be a one or a zero. And the only enemies your enemies can possibly have must be friendly to you. Otherwise, they must be friends of your enemy. It has a comforting simplicity to it if I can’t despise both Trump and AOC.
I’m a believer in non-binary politics. I don’t think there really is a team red or team blue. I think those are mental constructs fabricated by those with an interest in fanning the flames of rabid partisanship. The sort of people who say “ilk” a lot, and insist that third-party votes are “wasted”.
I guess this is part of your belief that "trying to group people in any way due to similar characteristics or viewpoints is futile and wrong. The only legitimate way to view people is in 7 billion different ways." The reality, of course, is that neither you, nor I, nor anyone else can process 7 billion, or even 330 million different views all as discrete individuals. Hence the need to find patterns, which we all do in every aspect of our lives. To not do so would result in life being incomprehensible chaos. Does this result in nuance being lost, or even some people being miscategorized altogether? Absolutely. Does it also help people to understand the world and other people's viewpoints? Absolutely.
I guess this is part of your belief that "trying to group people in any way due to similar characteristics or viewpoints is futile and wrong. The only legitimate way to view people is in 7 billion different ways." The reality, of course, is that neither you, nor I, nor anyone else can process 7 billion, or even 330 million different views all as discrete individuals. Hence the need to find patterns, which we all do in every aspect of our lives. To not do so would result in life being incomprehensible chaos. Does this result in nuance being lost, or even some people being miscategorized altogether? Absolutely. Does it also help people to understand the world and other people's viewpoints? Absolutely.
To me, it's more as if some people can't see anything other then primary colors, red, blue and yellow, and can't fathom the millions of shades which exist within them. But on top of that, many are so caught up in their favorite primary color, in your and Frugal One's case blue, all those millions of shades are red and you both think that red is bad.
frugal-one
11-23-20, 7:59pm
To me, it's more as if some people can't see anything other then primary colors, red, blue and yellow, and can't fathom the millions of shades which exist within them. But on top of that, many are so caught up in their favorite primary color, in your and Frugal One's case blue, all those millions of shades are red and you both think that red is bad.
Not necessarily blue .... I would have voted for Kasich. Unlike you, who will vote for any person, if considered to be a republican.
I would have voted for Kasich.I did.....twice.
frugal-one
11-23-20, 8:09pm
If you are locked into binary thinking, everything must be a one or a zero. And the only enemies your enemies can possibly have must be friendly to you. Otherwise, they must be friends of your enemy. It has a comforting simplicity to it if I can’t despise both Trump and AOC.
Interestingly, many times you stick up for trump but then say you despise him??
frugal-one
11-23-20, 8:12pm
I did.....twice.
Of course, he is a republican. What democrats have you voted for?
My dad's friend knew Biden very well, worked with him, and said he's a good man.
Of course, he is a republican. What democrats have you voted for?
Only two, I voted for Jimmy Carter in the 1976 Presidential race and Jesse Jackson in the 1988 Presidential primaries. I've matured since then. ;)
Edited to add: I guess you could say my second vote for Kasich was also a Democratic vote, I just didn't know it and he's never admitted it. He gets more press as a progressive Republican than he could ever generate as a moderate.
...I voted for Jimmy Carter in the 1976 Presidential race...
You voted for Ldahl's most hated president! I guess team red aren't all alike after all! :~)
You voted for Ldahl's most hated president! I guess team red aren't all alike after all! :~)No one hated Carter, he just wasn't a very good President. As conservatives, we're more likely to feel sorry for incompetence than hate.
iris lilies
11-23-20, 9:31pm
Name all of the Democratic candidates thru Bill Clinton’s second term and that is who I voted for.
I cannot remember for sure, but I think it was the Clinton II chapter that I did not support. Either that or I switched for GW Bush.
The feds had fkd my neighborhood pretty strongly by then, and I had had enough. Seeing my flower garden, land I own, displayed on a fed-created map showing places to build public housing was the final straw.
Interestingly, many times you stick up for trump but then say you despise him??
Well, when you say that the best thing that could happen is that someone shoot him, can’t I think both Trump and you are ridiculous? If I say Trump’s an embarrassment, but he’s no Hitler, is that sticking up for him?
I just don’t see much difference between you and Trump when it comes to overheated rhetoric. Why take either of two nonsensical sides?
No one hated Carter, he just wasn't a very good President. As conservatives, we're more likely to feel sorry for incompetence than hate.
You must feel super sorry for Trump. His incompetence regarding covid has been profound. Even a modestly competent response would have likely resulted in his reelection.
But seriously , you may be correct. Perhaps ldahl only came to hate carter post presidency. It will be interesting to see how trump lives post presidency. Perhaps he’ll give ldahl a new failed president to earn the title of most awful since it seems unlikely that trump is going to quietly go back to his ranch and spend his days ‘clearing brush’ like W.
ApatheticNoMore
11-24-20, 3:57am
Generally it is pretty rational to believe a leader when they say they intend a coup. However in Trump's case he is likely just grifting.
I usually vote 3rd party as my vote doesn't count as I don't live in a swing state, but I had enough, I just wanted to rack up the popular vote total against Trump. Mission accomplished.
You must feel super sorry for Trump. His incompetence regarding covid has been profound. Even a modestly competent response would have likely resulted in his reelection.
But seriously , you may be correct. Perhaps ldahl only came to hate carter post presidency. It will be interesting to see how trump lives post presidency. Perhaps he’ll give ldahl a new failed president to earn the title of most awful since it seems unlikely that trump is going to quietly go back to his ranch and spend his days ‘clearing brush’ like W.
All I ask of ex-presidents is that they shut up. Even Obama has pretty well managed that; although I sometimes wonder how many autobiographies one man needs to write.
I do agree that Trump has the potential to be every bit as annoying as Carter.
Teacher Terry
11-24-20, 12:18pm
Carter has lived a exemplary life of service to others that few can match. I am glad that Obama is finally speaking out against Trump and his worthless administration. I was disappointed that Bush didn’t endorse Biden like many prominent Republicans.
frugal-one
11-24-20, 6:17pm
Well, when you say that the best thing that could happen is that someone shoot him, can’t I think both Trump and you are ridiculous? If I say Trump’s an embarrassment, but he’s no Hitler, is that sticking up for him?
I just don’t see much difference between you and Trump when it comes to overheated rhetoric. Why take either of two nonsensical sides?
You have stood up for trump for years. Now you think he is ridiculous. I admit I don't care how he is gone. Thankfully, it will be the way it should. And, he is a Hitler wanna-be. You just didn't/don't want to see it. Now, that is ridiculous!
JaneV2.0
11-25-20, 10:24am
And denying his Russian connection/dependence is ridiculous. It's well-documented.
You have stood up for trump for years. Now you think he is ridiculous. I admit I don't care how he is gone. Thankfully, it will be the way it should. And, he is a Hitler wanna-be. You just didn't/don't want to see it. Now, that is ridiculous!
Clearly, you haven’t been paying attention. You seem to think anything less than hyperventilating on command is support of Trump. Can’t a reasonable person disagree with both his overwrought bluster and yours?
And as to the constant tedious Hitler comparisons, can’t a reasonable person compare the Fuhrer’s transition from power with Trump’s and draw a different conclusion?
frugal-one
11-25-20, 3:07pm
Clearly, you haven’t been paying attention. You seem to think anything less than hyperventilating on command is support of Trump. Can’t a reasonable person disagree with both his overwrought bluster and yours?
And as to the constant tedious Hitler comparisons, can’t a reasonable person compare the Fuhrer’s transition from power with Trump’s and draw a different conclusion?
Look up characteristics of dictators! Clearly, YOU have not been paying attention! A reasonable person would see the correlation.
iris lilies
11-25-20, 3:09pm
Daddy Joe is saying now that Trump is allowing all normal transition of administrations to takes place but Trump is not speaking to him.
This is bad ...because?
frugal-one
11-25-20, 3:11pm
[QUOTE=iris lilies;368571]Daddy Joe is saying now that Trump is allowing all normal transition of administrations to takes place but Trump is not speaking to him.
Dictator wanna-be trump not speaking to anyone is a great relief. Biden should be able to get reliable information from people who know what is going on.
ApatheticNoMore
11-25-20, 3:18pm
Daddy Joe is saying now that Trump is allowing all normal transition of administrations to takes place but Trump is not speaking to him.
This is bad ...because?
I don't think anyone was arguing that is particularly bad, the thing is transition funds were being held up, but are now released. Meanwhile currently Trump is still meeting with state officials still pushing that the election was stolen. The odds get worse every day that anything comes of it. So it's mostly conspiracy mongering, chaos sowing, and yes quite likely ultimately all about personal grift.
iris lilies
11-25-20, 3:23pm
I don't think anyone was arguing that is particularly bad, the thing is transition funds were being held up, but are now released. Meanwhile currently Trump is still meeting with state officials still pushing that the election was stolen. The odds get worse every day that anything comes of it. So it's mostly conspiracy mongering, chaos sowing, and yes quite likely ultimately all about personal grift.
I know, I was just kidding. I think it’s a good thing that Trump is not speaking to Joe because it must be kind of a relief.
I fear the Trump administration is sabotaging everything in sight (and out of sight) as fast as they can. They'll be leaving a lot of positions unfilled and a wake of chaos.
So far, PE Biden is making solid choices. He's not a revolutionary--that's for sure--but at least he knows what he's doing.
iris lilies
11-25-20, 5:24pm
I fear the Trump administration is sabotaging everything in sight (and out of sight) as fast as they can. They'll be leaving a lot of positions unfilled and a wake of chaos.
So far, PE Biden is making solid choices. He's not a revolutionary--that's for sure--but at least he knows what he's doing.
It’s hard for me to believe that Old Joe with his old Pol ways will have a more chaotic staffing situation than what went on in the White House in 2017 and in certain periods after.
frugal-one
11-25-20, 6:16pm
It’s hard for me to believe that Old Joe with his old Pol ways will have a more chaotic staffing situation than what went on in the White House in 2017 and in certain periods after.
Give Biden a chance before you start with the name calling. We had enough of that with trump. Hopefully, the chaos and divisiveness will now abate. Wishing for a return to a calming leadership. We all need a break from the continual nastiness of trumpism.
frugal-one
11-25-20, 6:21pm
I fear the Trump administration is sabotaging everything in sight (and out of sight) as fast as they can. They'll be leaving a lot of positions unfilled and a wake of chaos.
So far, PE Biden is making solid choices. He's not a revolutionary--that's for sure--but at least he knows what he's doing.
Now trump is trying to get all votes in WI from the election discarded....
Too bad he couldn't be handled like they do employees of corporations. When fired they are escorted out the door, keys returned and contents of desk cleaned out by someone else.
iris lilies
11-25-20, 6:21pm
Give Biden a chance before you start with the name calling. We have had enough of that with trump.
A chance to show he’s an Old Pol? You need him to show you that? Um, ok.,
And out if curiosity are you included in the the “we” who have had enough of name calling? Because you could have stopped calling names you know. Just a thought.
frugal-one
11-25-20, 7:55pm
A chance to show he’s an Old Pol? You need him to show you that? Um, ok.,
And out if curiosity are you included in the the “we” who have had enough of name calling? Because you could have stopped calling names you know. Just a thought.
tit for tat... It will be over soon. trump will be gone. I am hopeful life will be more peaceful.
I am hopeful life will be more peaceful.I believe we all make our own peace, maybe you're ready to try now.
I believe we all make our own peace, maybe you're ready to try now.
Should the hundreds of immigrant families that were cruelly separated and lost track of be at peace when their kids are now essentially orphaned?
Should the hundreds of immigrant families that were cruelly separated and lost track of be at peace when their kids are now essentially orphaned?
Wishing you peace as well JP. Happy Thanksgiving!
frugal-one
11-26-20, 3:29pm
I believe we all make our own peace, maybe you're ready to try now.
There are outside forces, especially those that interfere with our inherent beliefs, that wreak havoc with peace. jp1 gave one example, but there are many. I think one for you, Alan, would be abortion based on previous discussions.
There are outside forces, especially those that interfere with our inherent beliefs, that wreak havoc with peace. jp1 gave one example, but there are many. I think one for you, Alan, would be abortion based on previous discussions.
That's true, I believe abortion (after a certain point) to be a crime against humanity, though I can still find peace knowing that I actively reject and work against politicians and parties wishing to expand a mother's "right" at the expense of the victim. I do what I can to civilize those outside forces and wish them well while maintaining inner peace. It's doable!
happystuff
11-28-20, 1:35pm
That's true, I believe abortion (after a certain point) to be a crime against humanity, though I can still find peace knowing that I actively reject and work against politicians and parties wishing to expand a mother's "right" at the expense of the victim. I do what I can to civilize those outside forces and wish them well while maintaining inner peace. It's doable!
Good to know it is doable and I put effort into maintaining inner peace as well. However, I will admit I sometimes struggle as I still view the mothers as much a victim of abortion whereas it seems the fathers get off with few-to-no consequences or responsiblities. Will boys/men ever stop thinking with their penises and just start thinking! where sex, women, and procreation are concerned?
Widely available, cheap birth control and sex education would go a long way toward limiting the incidence of abortions. Oddly, the same people who rail about other people's life choices vis-a-vis abortion are often dead set against birth control as well. It's mostly about controlling women and their sex lives, IMO.
iris lilies
11-28-20, 3:33pm
Widely available, cheap birth control and sex education would go a long way toward limiting the incidence of abortions. Oddly, the same people who rail about other people's life choices vis-a-vis abortion are often dead set against birth control as well. It's mostly about controlling women and their sex lives, IMO.
At this point I am very tired of hearing broad characterizations of people, So let’s get specific. Let’s get down and dirty.
So I want to know specifically who here who “rails” about abortion, is “ dead set against birth control as well.” Show me the test from this forum. We have a search index. You are a computer professional. I think you could probably find those texts to prove your point.
If you just want to come here to shout into the void of the universe and not make useful arguments to those who need to hear it well then at least admit that’s what you’re doing.
I am a big supporter of abortion, but I also would like everyone to pause for just a moment to recognize that there is something lost when that group of fetal cells disappears. That may be a loss a loss to society and a loss to humanity. When it’s parents who lose that same set of cells in an unwanted miscarriage, it’s a tragedy.There is something to be said about the sanctity of human life and respecting it in this endeavor.
frugal-one
11-28-20, 3:36pm
Peace may be achievable if their is only one issue. When there are MANY issues, such as is currently, It is highly unlikely many will find peace.... myself included. Hopefully the atrocities can be mitigated.
happystuff
11-28-20, 3:37pm
If you just want to come here to shout into the void of the universe and not make useful arguments to those who need to hear it well then at least admit that’s what you’re doing.
Hmmm... kind of thought that is what everyone/all of us were here doing. :devil:
We’re all worn down by the crazy arguments all over our worlds the last few years.
To IrisLilies’ point, I’ve been pro choice for years, but it always makes me sad because of the lost potential. My ovulating days are over, but I always thought if I had an “oops”, or even a pregnancy from a rape, I would struggle to abort. That’s just me, and the choice should be mine - but there is a lot of sadness in some of these situations, no matter what is decided.
Teacher Terry
11-28-20, 4:09pm
I had a friend with 3 grown children that was raped and got pregnant with twins. She was very grateful to be able to have a abortion but it still was heartbreaking. She was in her early 40’s. From what I have read about late term abortion they often are wanted babies that will be born only to suffer and die shortly after birth and sometimes the mom will also die. These stories are so sad.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sexual-intelligence/201706/why-does-the-religious-right-hate-your-birth-control
It took me about 15 seconds to dig this up; I'm not inclined to spend more time finding more examples. The Catholic Church is one example of this attitude.
More here: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/is-contraception-murder_b_302066
I thought these intertwined attitudes were widely accepted as common. I stand by my perfectly innocuous and provable statement.
ApatheticNoMore
11-28-20, 5:15pm
dead set against birth control = overturning the ACA mandate to cover birth control for religious exemptions or anything else. If we want people to have real access to birth control it has to be part of their healthcare, ANY birth control, ALL birth control (mind you the government could just cover it without any need for employers to and without any need for health insurance if not in general at least for birth control, and I'd prefer it, but that's not how it was setup). Everything else is anti birth control in results. But birth control is cheap? No it's not, it depends. Condoms are cheap and not that effective, pills may be cheap but what if you don't do well with hormones or remember to take pills, IUDs are not cheap etc.. It's an actual fact that birth control with a cost are much more common in other countries that have ta da universal healthcare, so it's an actual fact that people's choices are constrained, the ACA meant to overturn that for those with healthcare coverage until the Supreme Court got involved.
catherine
11-28-20, 5:26pm
If you just want to come here to shout into the void of the universe and not make useful arguments to those who need to hear it well then at least admit that’s what you’re doing.
I am a big supporter of abortion, but I also would like everyone to pause for just a moment to recognize that there is something lost when that group of fetal cells disappears. That may be a loss a loss to society and a loss to humanity. When it’s parents who lose that same set of cells in an unwanted miscarriage, it’s a tragedy.There is something to be said about the sanctity of human life and respecting it in this endeavor.
To IrisLilies’ point, I’ve been pro choice for years, but it always makes me sad because of the lost potential.
When I nearly had an abortion, two things stopped me. One of those things was an article that cited: "The tragedy of abortion is not so much the individual lives lost, but it represents the loss of hope." So, I'm with Tammy and IL: I am pro-choice, but it is never a great choice.
I don't see abortion as a tragedy, particularly, but it usually represents some kind of failure (that I didn't want to experience) so I was very, very careful.
Catherine's quote doesn't resonate with me, either. To paraphrase Tina Turner "What's hope got to do with it?" (Maybe I'm just dense...) >8)
happystuff
11-28-20, 5:50pm
When I nearly had an abortion, two things stopped me. One of those things was an article that cited: "The tragedy of abortion is not so much the individual lives lost, but it represents the loss of hope." So, I'm with Tammy and IL: I am pro-choice, but it is never a great choice.
I am somewhat surprised by the number of people who believe that "pro-choice" = "pro-abortion". While I am not necessarily "for abortion", I am definitely FOR a woman's choice... Personally, I think the people who think it is an easy decision are the ones who have never had to face making it.
catherine
11-28-20, 6:20pm
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sexual-intelligence/201706/why-does-the-religious-right-hate-your-birth-control
It took me about 15 seconds to dig this up; I'm not inclined to spend more time finding more examples. The Catholic Church is one example of this attitude.
More here: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/is-contraception-murder_b_302066
I thought these intertwined attitudes were widely accepted as common. I stand by my perfectly innocuous and provable statement.
You are correct. Many people, notably Catholics, are against abortion AND birth control.
Catherine's quote doesn't resonate with me, either. To paraphrase Tina Turner "What's hope got to do with it?" (Maybe I'm just dense...)
It's hard to explain.. maybe it's one of those things where you have to be there. It resonated with me and held a mirror up to my personal despair at that time in my life.
iris lilies
11-28-20, 6:33pm
Hmmm... kind of thought that is what everyone/all of us were here doing. :devil:
See you are proving my point. I direct my erudite, thoughtful, and perfectly correct thoughts to you all here in this forum. I’m not trying to educate the world. Nor am I going to denigrate “the world”. There are enough knuckledheaded ideas here on this forum, a whole rich pool of them, that I’m perfectly happy to take them on. I don’t need to reach out into the faceless world to Characterize their ideas and then attack them.
I’m not sure what that accomplishes.Oh wait, well, sure it accomplishes ego boosting it makes us feel good and superior and smug. So OK carry-on.
happystuff
11-28-20, 6:35pm
It's hard to explain.. maybe it's one of those things where you have to be there. It resonated with me and held a mirror up to my personal despair at that time in my life.
And this is one of the reasons I am pro-choice. Your situation was exactly that - YOUR situation; and you are the only one who could/should make such a choice for yourself.
catherine
11-28-20, 6:36pm
And this is one of the reasons I am pro-choice. Your situation was exactly that - YOUR situation; and you are the only one who could/should make such a choice for yourself.
That's right.
happystuff
11-28-20, 6:37pm
See you are proving my point. I direct my erudite, thoughtful, and perfectly correct thoughts to you all here in this forum. I’m not trying to educate the world. Nor am I going to denigrate “the world”. There are enough knuckledheaded ideas here on this forum, a whole rich pool of them, that I’m perfectly happy to take them on. I don’t need to reach out into the faceless world to Characterize their ideas and then attack them.
I’m not sure what that accomplishes.Oh wait, well, sure it accomplishes ego boosting it makes us feel good and superior and smug. So OK carry-on.
ROFLOL. You do make me laugh. Thanks.
iris lilies
11-28-20, 6:38pm
I am somewhat surprised by the number of people who believe that "pro-choice" = "pro-abortion". While I am not necessarily "for abortion", I am definitely FOR a woman's choice... Personally, I think the people who think it is an easy decision are the ones who have never had to face making it.
I only say I am in favor of abortion because it gets people riled up, I always get a lecture about it. I don’t care about using popular lingo, the politically correct “pro-choice “ Which is of course in favor of abortion in the right circumstances so “pro abortion” is not entirely wrong.
happystuff
11-28-20, 6:43pm
I only say I am in favor of abortion because it gets people riled up, I always get a lecture about it. I don’t care about using popular lingo, the politically correct “pro-choice “ Which is of course in favor of abortion in the right circumstances so “pro abortion” is not entirely wrong.
So then why are you getting so upset about other people's posts? You are posting for "effect" (i.e. getting people riled up) and got your desired response(s), so why the rant:
At this point I am very tired of hearing broad characterizations of people, So let’s get specific. Let’s get down and dirty.
Show me the test from this forum. We have a search index. You are a computer professional. I think you could probably find those texts to prove your point.
If you just want to come here to shout into the void of the universe and not make useful arguments to those who need to hear it well then at least admit that’s what you’re doing.
Edited to add: Sorry - the answer was right there - to get folks riled up. LOL.
iris lilies
11-28-20, 6:47pm
I don't see abortion as a tragedy, particularly, but it usually represents some kind of failure (that I didn't want to experience) so I was very, very careful.
Catherine's quote doesn't resonate with me, either. To paraphrase Tina Turner "What's hope got to do with it?" (Maybe I'm just dense...) >8)
Yes you are dense. There’s nothing wrong with being dense and not understanding at a deep level. I don’t either particularly, Or more importantly, I don’t care to understand because understanding isn’t that important to me. Make no mistake, freedom for abortions is an important issue for me.
What *IS* wrong is when you or me or anyone of our ilk fail to respect what I think it’s a perfectly valid point of view. Smug slogans it’s like my body my choice as though there’s absolutely no other consideration is just dumb sloganeering.
iris lilies
11-28-20, 6:48pm
So then why are you getting so upset about other people's posts? You are posting for "effect" (i.e. getting people riled up) and got your desired response(s), so why the rant:
At this point I am very tired of hearing broad characterizations of people, So let’s get specific. Let’s get down and dirty.
Show me the test from this forum. We have a search index. You are a computer professional. I think you could probably find those texts to prove your point.
If you just want to come here to shout into the void of the universe and not make useful arguments to those who need to hear it well then at least admit that’s what you’re doing.
Edited to add: Sorry - the answer was right there - to get folks riled up. LOL.
dude! Point to you!
I do miss .UltraLite.
happystuff
11-28-20, 6:52pm
dude! Point to you!
I do miss .UltraLite.
You can have it - I don't need/want any points. And, for the record, I miss Ultralite as well. I always enjoyed his minimalist-related posts.
When I was about thirteen and during our usual evening walk, Dad and I discussed population control. I could and did discuss everything with him. I asked him why it was important that women take the responsibility for the number of children being born. Women usually had one egg per month, men have 250 million sperm cells per ejaculation. https://www.livescience.com/32437-why-are-250-million-sperm-cells-released-during-sex.html
I thought that society should take control of all sperm release year-round to control births for population control; if society wanted to control what women did with their bodies, it should take control of men's bodies and sperm. Dad didn't have a response to that.
I still wonder why society is able to control women's bodies or tries to but not one word about controlling men's sperm.
I recently had a quiet talk with a pro-life religious couple. I said that I probably would have difficulty choosing abortion but felt that each person should be treated equally - men take ownership of their sperm and women of their eggs. Neither is conceiving a child with just one half of the equation.
Turns out that their strong pro-life stance was compassionate. They knew people who had struggled with the abortion decision due to a defective foetus and did abort. This couple had themselves gone through tremendous financial stress in their youth where there was so little food so another baby would have been impossible. I wonder if the public stance and the private stance are different.
I read an article about birth control in Africa where so many women were dying in childbirth leaving older children at risk, plus the vulnerable child brides, and even the Catholic representatives had the option of birth control discreetly available.
Jane, your comment was basically innocuous but feelings do run strongly.
happystuff
11-28-20, 7:16pm
When I was about thirteen and during our usual evening walk, Dad and I discussed population control. I could and did discuss everything with him. I asked him why it was important that women take the responsibility for the number of children being born. Women usually had one egg per month, men have 250 million sperm cells per ejaculation. https://www.livescience.com/32437-why-are-250-million-sperm-cells-released-during-sex.html
I thought that society should take control of all sperm release year-round to control births for population control; if society wanted to control what women did with their bodies, it should take control of men's bodies and sperm. Dad didn't have a response to that.
I still wonder why society is able to control women's bodies or tries to but not one word about controlling men's sperm.
+1
I'm doubly dense today. I didn't understand Catherine's point of view, probably because it's quite different from mine, and I don't get why you're flying off the handle over what I said--unless it was so obvious that it should have gone unremarked. Oh well.
Abortion is certainly the most personal of decisions, and shouldn't be subject to group approval. (I hope that isn't too radical an idea; I'll go flagellate myself now. :devil:)
Abortion is certainly the most personal of decisions, and shouldn't be subject to group approval. (I hope that isn't too radical an idea; I'll go flagellate myself now. :devil:)I agree that it's a personal decision, up to a point. But eventually there's a real live person being killed, although we can't talk about that without being told we're trying to control women, or that it's none of our business because we're not a woman, or that if we weren't so fast and loose with our sperm it wouldn't be a problem. That's tiring! No need to flagellate yourself but it would be nice to occasionally focus on the life that's lost if that's not too radical.
happystuff
11-28-20, 7:42pm
I agree that it's a personal decision, up to a point. But eventually there's a real live person being killed, although we can't talk about that without being told we're trying to control women, or that it's none of our business because we're not a woman, or that if we weren't so fast and loose with our sperm it wouldn't be a problem. That's tiring! No need to flagellate yourself but it would be nice to occasionally focus on the life that's lost if that's not too radical.
Finally! You got it!!!
Or is it just a personal decision up to the point where you - or men in general - don't need to be responsible for the sperm half that created the real live person being killed???
You don't think it has been tiring for women all these years having to deal with not only the situation but the responses of the male half of the equation?
Edited to add: Personally, I think you can't, won't or don't know how to accept reproductive responsibility and the above "That's tiring" is your way of pushing it all back on to being the woman's burden, which you want to control - up to a point!
catherine
11-28-20, 7:48pm
...we can't talk about that without being told we're trying to control women, or that it's none of our business because we're not a woman, or that if we weren't so fast and loose with our sperm it wouldn't be a problem..
If the shoe fits...
The problem is it's always the woman's problem, and we, as a society, have yet to come up with solutions that acknowledge it takes two to tango.
And the other sad-but-true cliche is that "sanctity of life" too often stops when citizens need living wages, or healthcare, or when the State determines that eye-for-an-eye is appropriate justice for a criminal.
Personally, I think you can't, won't or don't know how to accept reproductive responsibility and the above "That's tiring" is your way of pushing it all back on to being the woman's burden, which you want to control - up to a point!And that's another reason we can't talk about it, I forgot to mention that part.
happystuff
11-28-20, 8:00pm
I think I have a solution for you, Alan. For every abortion a woman is prevented from having, the resultant child automatically becomes the legal and moral responsibility, as well as physical custody, of the biological sperm father! 250 million sperm cells per ejaculation.... go men! Let's see how quickly male birth control and/or abstinence becomes the norm in society then.
happystuff
11-28-20, 8:01pm
And that's another reason we can't talk about it, I forgot to mention that part.
LOL. Yeah, that's what I thought.
Isn't it kind of condescending to assume that a woman considering abortion isn't aware that her fetus is a potential human being?
And Catherine is absolutely right: "And the other sad-but-true cliche is that "sanctity of life" too often stops when citizens need living wages, or healthcare, or when the State determines that eye-for-an-eye is appropriate justice for a criminal." Instead of wringing our hands over unwanted zygotes or fetuses, maybe we should focus on the impoverished, neglected, unwanted fully-developed children who live among us.
I'll take this opportunity to ask a favor of you guys. The next time this subject comes up and I'm foolish enough to comment, remind me that I shouldn't. :thankyou: in advance.
Will do, Alan. At least you got semi-civil responses. :~)
happystuff
11-28-20, 8:37pm
I'll take this opportunity to ask a favor of you guys. The next time this subject comes up and I'm foolish enough to comment, remind me that I shouldn't. :thankyou: in advance.
LOL. Just trying to help with solutions to keep fewer lives from being lost, but I understand if solutions putting the onus on men and, not women alone, are inconceivable to you.
I think I have a solution for you, Alan. For every abortion a woman is prevented from having, the resultant child automatically becomes the legal and moral responsibility, as well as physical custody, of the biological sperm father! 250 million sperm cells per ejaculation.... go men! Let's see how quickly male birth control and/or abstinence becomes the norm in society then.
Though that may be a noble idea, I doubt it would work. Since the advent of state-mandated child support, one of the more effective methods of avoiding it seems to be simply killing the woman involved. (Note--if your less than enthusiastic sperm donor wants to meet you alone some dark night, don't go.) This method seems to work at least some of the time.
happystuff
11-28-20, 8:54pm
Isn't it kind of condescending to assume that a woman considering abortion isn't aware that her fetus is a potential human being?
And Catherine is absolutely right: "And the other sad-but-true cliche is that "sanctity of life" too often stops when citizens need living wages, or healthcare, or when the State determines that eye-for-an-eye is appropriate justice for a criminal." Instead of wringing our hands over unwanted zygotes or fetuses, maybe we should focus on the impoverished, neglected, unwanted fully-developed children who live among us.
This always confused me.
I always wondered how many of the pro-lifers/end abortion at all costs/ and just people in general - were foster parents or adoptive parents or supported the social welfare services in their area or did ANYTHING to help and care for these "lives"? When and why does the "value" of the life being spared from abortion lose that value and be allowed to fall into neglect, poverty, being unwanted as described above? People fought to keep the potential life alive, but once alive... where did the fighters go?
ApatheticNoMore
11-29-20, 2:15am
Abortion is not ideal, but how many men can relate to the fear of getting pregnant and then having to raise a kid all alone? (and how much social and economic support is there for women raising kids as single parents anyway? Very little - I blame conservatives)
If one waited to be in a truly committed relationship (where the man wasn't opt to just fly) before having sex one simply wouldn't have sex in their youth period, because it surely was NOT on offer (I blame men). But sure birth control, abortion only if it fails.
rosarugosa
11-29-20, 7:44am
I am pro-abortion and have no trouble saying so.
I agree that it's a personal decision, up to a point. But eventually there's a real live person being killed, although we can't talk about that without being told we're trying to control women, or that it's none of our business because we're not a woman, or that if we weren't so fast and loose with our sperm it wouldn't be a problem. That's tiring! No need to flagellate yourself but it would be nice to occasionally focus on the life that's lost if that's not too radical.
Alan, I agree with you. And half of the people losing their lives are female children. I wish we would spend more time talking as a society about why our society does not support women and children, why children are seen as a barrier to a financially successful life, why women are not supported if they want to bear the child, why women are punished economically through child bearing. I also wish people would deal with the reality of how people feel after abortion, and how substandard the medical care is through the process.
I will try not to comment on this subject either, but I did want to say that I agree with what you are saying, not that it matters, but I agree.
JaneV2.0
11-29-20, 12:16pm
Romania decided, in its infinite wisdom, to ban contraception and abortion in the sixties. A disaster followed:
The country’s orphanages began to fill up from the late 1960s, when the state decided to battle a demographic crisis by banning abortion and removing contraception from sale. Many of those in the orphanages were not actually orphans, but those whose parents felt they could not cope financially with raising a child. (The Guardian)
I'm old enough to remember the horrific videos of those institutions, as well as discussions of back-alley abortions in this country. If I were potentate, birth control of all kinds would be free--or nearly so--and widely available.
ApatheticNoMore
11-29-20, 12:49pm
I don't know what men like Alan want women to be. Celibate until they are past childbearing? Single mothers? Have perfectly effective birth control? The most realistic answer is perfectly effective birth control, well it gets quite close but not to 100%, and the best birth control costs a bunch of money. It's the right that has opposed most of these things: single motherhood and providing such mothers adequate financial support, widely available free birth control for all etc.. Oh heterosexual men in general probably oppose women all becoming celibate. I may speak for myself but us women would be pretty happy enjoying cake in lieu of sex thank you very much. You have no idea how little we think about sex, at any age.
I don't know what men like Alan want women to be.I want women to be just as they are. My comments on this subject have never been about control of women, it's always been about recognition of the life that's lost and letting that lost life be part of the discussion.
I'm only commenting this last time because my views and motivations have been misrepresented in virtually every response.
catherine
11-29-20, 1:23pm
I do respect your opinion about the sanctity of life, just for the record, and share it.
Teacher Terry
11-29-20, 1:28pm
Alan, I agree that abortion should never be taken lightly. I would like birth control to be free so there would be less of a need.
happystuff
11-29-20, 1:29pm
I want women to be just as they are. My comments on this subject have never been about control of women, it's always been about recognition of the life that's lost and letting that lost life be part of the discussion.
I'm only commenting this last time because my views and motivations have been misrepresented in virtually every response.
I think you don't understand that when a woman gets pregnant, the recognition of that life is there for her - forever and always - period. Whether that life continues or is lost, is part of the resulting conversation, discussion, and decision of that recognition. But, again, I don't know of ANY woman who has not recognized the potential life connected to her pregnancy, regardless of the outcome of that pregnancy.
Edited to add: And not to be nasty or anything, but I have to agree with a previous poster... I agree that it is rather arrogant for you to think or assume that the individual woman - or couple - do not recognize the life that may or may not be lost. To think/assume that an individual woman or couple have not discussed the life from every aspect of their pregnancy IS a control issue on your part. Again, no offense, but you seem to be trying to impose your thoughts of someone else's situation as being theirs.
I think the central argument over abortion is whether a fetus is a human being or not. The rest is distraction. If your answer is no, the economic, political and gender equity arguments make sense. If your answer is yes, you might argue about cases of medical necessity, but the rest doesn’t much matter.
That’s why I think we talk past each other so much.
I think the central argument over abortion is whether a fetus is a human being or not.
An additional point of view: WHEN is the group of cells a human. Is a group of 8 cells A human or only the potential to be a human? I remember reading the encyclopedia as a kid and seeing embryos of different animals and remember thinking they all kind of look like lizards at an early stage.
What Alan seems to be saying is that he wants the status quo but with less abortion. The other concerns you all have are not concerns to him.
Teacher Terry
11-29-20, 1:53pm
I would like less abortions too but we have to trust women to make their own decisions. Plus having worked in child protection some of those kids lives were ruined from abuse they will probably never recover from. Another reason for free birth control.
My comments on this subject have never been about control of women, it's always been about recognition of the life that's lost and letting that lost life be part of the discussion.
I'm only commenting this last time because my views and motivations have been misrepresented in virtually every response.
Thank you for expressing concern for the lives ended with abortion. I agree with you, and I also feel you have been misrepresented terribly here. In fact, all kinds of evils are attributed to anyone who speaks up for those lives ended in abortion.
And yes, that is of course only my opinion. All we can do is speak our individual truths. Thank you for speaking yours.
happystuff
11-29-20, 1:58pm
What Alan seems to be saying is that he wants the status quo but with less abortion.
Except that the current "status quo" - which places the onus and burden on only women with all the short-comings and restrictions that exist in that status quo - is NOT acceptable.
ApatheticNoMore
11-29-20, 2:03pm
How many women's lives are ruined by the status quo doesn't matter, they are already born women and thus of little value.
frugal-one
11-30-20, 4:08pm
In yesterday's paper... A guy wrote: "Evangelicals claim that God made Trump President, which suggests that God has now corrected his mistake."
3497
ApatheticNoMore
11-30-20, 5:19pm
by the by that I have never been pregnant end of story. But I have of course known the raw primal terror of "what if I get pregnant (and have to raise a kid alone) … well maybe I'd throw myself off a bridge"
by the by that I have never been pregnant end of story. But I have of course known the raw primal terror of "what if I get pregnant (and have to raise a kid alone) … well maybe I'd throw myself off a bridge"
I think that's a pretty common fear among women. Or "How am I going to pay the thousands and thousands it costs to raise a child, never mind the $14,000 or so to give birth?"
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