View Full Version : Where to live?
Brainstorm with me —
Due to not being able to work and applying for disability through my pension system, the last thing tying us to living in Phoenix (my work) is now melting away.
(Decisions won’t be made for months/years yet due to so many uncertainties right now. We had thought we might stay in our current house through retirement. But none of our kids live here anymore, and there are some things that are not ideal about Phoenix. We moved here for my job originally in 2010.)
Where are good places to live?
Priority considerations are related to:
Safety
Climate change
English language
Healthcare
Clean air and water
Less of a priority are:
Urban vs rural vs suburban
Education systems (preK - post grad)
Museums, zoos, et al
Restaurants
Religious choices
Cost (lower is better but we don’t require much sq footage)
Where family lives (they’re scattered anyway)
Political culture
And a way out there question -
With western fires everywhere this fall, climate changes, seasonal changes —- I’ve thought about whether the RV life would be an option. Drive to where the fires are not burning, etc. (for comparison on the size - we lived in a one-room 500 sq ft apartment for 3 years and it worked for us.)
Another way out there thought -
My Canadian daughter will sponsor us to emigrate. Our retirement income should be enough to meet requirements, once we get things straightened out with disability etc. She says you don’t have to have employment there. As long as you have income and a sponsor you’re good.
I’d love to hear everybody’s input.
(To be clear - items on the “less of a priority” list means not important at all to us ...)
I would do the Canadian emigration thing if I had the chance, and a daughter who was there and willing to sponsor me.
So many options, lots of think about!
What I pick out of your list is daughter and disability. I would want to make it as easy as possible for a relative to be close.
We have no younger relatives so our choice to stay in our city is due to huge amount of available services (medical, transportation, etc.) and our involvement in activities with friends.
iris lilies
12-1-20, 8:48am
Assuming your income is not affected by emigration, the daughter/Canada move is intriguing. You are a few years away from drawing Social .security pension here in the U.S. What happens age 66 in Canada? I would like to emphasize that Canada really does not welcome old, sick people so I might be a little skeptical of that option.
You all know how I feel about the desert. Ugh. I think places like Phoenix are a carbuncle on the face of the earth. So unnatural. Before all of the fires, I would have suggested coastal Oregon and .washington, but not sure about those now.
You have no mention of climate on your list. So, if you don’t mind cold, northern midwest is pretty, and New England is fabulous. Many middle Midwest places are nice, too—Ohio, Indiana, Iowa.
For me in your situation , climate/seasonal changes and topography would be the main influence. I did not think “ climate change” on your list meant that.
If you have health issues, RV living would be the last thing on my mind.
The Canadian option is something. What part of Canada does your daughter live in?
Tammy, just a thought. How stable is your daughter's location, employment and resources? When DH passed, I had to think about your very questions. Ultimately,I had no idea where the kids, who now live 3-8 hours away, would be living for the next 30 years, their employment, their retirement choices and the availability of any services I might require in the coming years. That is why I stayed where I had lived for about 40 years but made sure that my new home met all my longterm requirements. and enabled overnight visits. My family were very familiar with the area, enjoyed visiting and yet were free to live their busy lives as they needed and wished to do. I cannot imagine what a difference the isolation due to covid would be like without my friends to support and receive support.
You have no commitment to your area which is a benefit in being free to decide on your move. Thinking very carefully as you are doing is so important and you will find your right place.
A neighbour couple, now in their 80's, moved cross-country to be closer to DD, live on his comfortable but limited work pension plus the government pensions, built a two-level home with a mortgage with DD's family.
It seemed an ideal and wise move 12 years ago. But now DD's family's business has failed due to competition, covid, reduced demand, etc. It is creating a lot of stress for all.
Yeah, I hate to say it but "safety," "climate change" "English language" "Clean air and water" scream Vermont. Just sayin'. I thought of exactly those things when we were moving here--not to mention the proximity to family. Where in Canada does your DD live? We are 26 miles from Quebec.
There is also Rochester, which is a nice, very inexpensive small city in upstate NY, and close to Ontario.
I didn't include "healthcare" as a huge plus for VT, because there is only one major hospital system: University of Vermont, which we have used quite a bit and it's actually very good, but the further you get away from its main campus the more limited the services are. I feel we were in a much better place for state of the art healthcare in Central Jersey, but Jersey strikes out on some of the other things on your list. Although I must say that we feel VERY safe from COVID living on an island. We've had one of the very lowest rates in the country. Vermont is the lowest in the country in terms of COVID cases by far, but hopefully that will no longer an issue by the time you make these decisions.
Teacher Terry
12-1-20, 9:06am
With RV living you need to follow the weather because they don’t hold heat well. Ours was 27 ft which meant 167 sq ft. Much smaller than 500. You could buy a huge one. They need constant maintenance as things break frequently even in new ones. I have known a few people to follow kids and then the kids had to move for work. If you don’t have lots of friends and a support network where you are it’s probably less attractive to stay. While the Midwest can be cheaper for housing prices property and state taxes may outweigh that plus heating costs. Then you have to decide if you’re willing to deal with winter. Lots of considerations.
I would seriously look at Canada.
Good thread. I was just thinking about this last night and enjoyed reading this:
Forbes' Best Places to Retire Abroad
(https://www.forbes.com/sites/williampbarrett/2019/11/27/the-best-places-to-retire-abroad-in-2020/?sh=3223ec2e516c)
Based on cost, safety, health care, English, and ease of long-term residency.
Simplemind
12-1-20, 11:42am
Even though we live on the West Coast I have so fallen in love with Eastern Canada. Not sure how much I would love it in winter but I sure love it in the fall. Western is beautiful as well but I haven't seen as much of it. I would have a hard time moving that far from primary family (we do have cousins up there) but it is fun to fantasize.
I do love Oregon. It has just about every type of terrain within an hour our so but as the years go by I am having a very hard time with the gray rainy winters. Since we retired we have been traveling looking for a winter haven. I love our place in all other seasons but winter. We have also used the RV. I am now convinced (as is my sister who has done the same) that the RV, even for the winter months in a sunny climate is not for us.
The older we get the more we know that being close to good medical is important, especially for my husband. After having cared for our parents and still caring for his mom who just turned 96, we know how important it is to be close to the family who can assist you. Before we got his mom close to us she was over an hour away and a difficult drive during bad weather if something happened which those somethings were beginning to happen with regularity. My parents would have never envisioned how frail and dependent they were going to become. My mom died in 2012 and my dad in 2018 and from 2008 on my life pretty much revolved around their care as they both ended up with cancer and dementia.
I've always wanted to live near the ocean. We have talked about having two small condos to bounce back and forth between the coast and here in the Portland metro area close to the kids.
Decisions, decisions.....
More info:
Daughter is living in Toronto - for 15 years and will probably never leave
(Middle child lives in grand canyon village with wife and 2 sons. He won’t be there forever, it’s for his job. They love it there, but not forever. Other son is in Carson city, Nevada, probably for a few more years.)
“Climate change” = my thoughts are that it’s hard to predict so favorable areas may not be so good after all. (Fires, sea level rise) I’ve read that the Great Lakes area should be somewhat protected with all the fresh water.
Actual climate is less of a concern. I can live with a wide variety.
Youngest son says “remember that nothing is actually permanent” - you can always change it up
My own parents are 86 and 80, living on their farm in Ohio. I am inheriting 80 acres there - all farmland. I had thought that my brother and sister who live in the area would do the hands on stuff as they age, due to my career. But now it could be me, if I recover more as time goes by. I’m seeing the many shades of disability firsthand. It’s not all or nothing. I’m good enough now to care for things inside the house. Husband does outdoor tasks, grocery shopping, etc. It’s possible I could recover enough to help them but not enough to work. I would want to help if I could.
We like our small house in phx and it’s affordable. It was our oasis this last 6 months and I loved it more than ever. I’m getting weary of the bad air quality in November - February due to wood burning for heat due to temperature inversions. It’s our best weather and I can’t live with the windows open because it smells like smoke all the time. So I don’t know if this is a good place to stay when the only thing still tying us to this location is the fact that we like our house,
RV living has its downsides that’s for sure, what entices me is the mobility.
I recognize that our situation is greatly affected by the pandemic, the lockdowns, loss of my health and job, my covid experience, etc. I remind myself that what I am experiencing is not a transition into a normal retirement. Instead it’s a series of losses that could not be predicted. We cancelled 3 trips in 2020, and also had planned a few weekends a month in northern Arizona where our middle child lives. Not having all of that changed everything. Our home is both oasis and prison, depending on the day.
My disability paperwork is filed and I should hear from my pension system on that within 2 months. I’ve learned a lot since I last talked with you all about my finances. Disability will pay enough that we can continue on our current financial plan. Accountant son explained that if we put 10,000-15,000 into IRAs or HSAs, our AGI will drop to where we can get an ACA healthcare plan for 500 a month. We were right at what they call “the cliff”, where you get affordable insurance from the ACA until a cut off, and then you get nothing and the cost is 4x the amount. The difference between paying the bills, and being impoverished by the cost of insurance. I guess this is one of the things Biden talks about fixing.
If I don’t get disability then we can get Medicaid for free. It’s not asset based which I didn’t know.
I can take early retirement with my pension at any time if needed, although it will be a lot less per month compared to waiting until age 62 or older. If I get disability my pension and years of service continue to grow for the future.
I think I’ve answered all the questions.
How about Denver? Major travel hub for flying to scattered family. I know CO fires were horrible this year, but normally air and water there are clean. Here's a brainstorm list of U.S. places (https://www.forbes.com/sites/williampbarrett/2020/08/14/the-best-places-to-retire-in-2020/). Not seeing Denver on it, but there some I might cross off for climate change reasons.
How about Denver? Major travel hub for flying to scattered family. I know CO fires were horrible this year, but normally air and water there are clean. Here's a brainstorm list of U.S. places (https://www.forbes.com/sites/williampbarrett/2020/08/14/the-best-places-to-retire-in-2020/). Not seeing Denver on it, but there some I might cross off for climate change reasons.
Nice ideas on that list. Just based on my personal preferences, the top 4 places that attract me (my NE bias clearly evident) are:
a) Pittsfield, MA
b) Lewiston, ME
c) Asheville, NC
d) Savannah, GA
You have no mention of climate on your list. So, if you don’t mind cold, northern midwest is pretty, and New England is fabulous. Many middle Midwest places are nice, too—Ohio, Indiana, Iowa.
I'll put in a plug for Minnesota, and not just because I live here. I could have gone anywhere; I chose here.
Safety
George Floyd protests aside, Minnesota seems to have a major protest every 15 years or so and that's largely it. DW and I live within city limits and the biggest dangers we have are "porch pirates" and being out on the major streets between maybe midnight and 5 am.
Climate changeDefinitely have that on a seasonal scale! Summers and winters are getting marginally warmer here. But the Great Lakes region is not going to see the meteorological tumult that areas like Phoenix and Florida and the Gulf States see.
English languageYah, you betcha! We speak English here! Seriously, we don't all sound like the folks in the movie Fargo. ;)
HealthcareSeveral health systems radiating out of the Twin Cities, Duluth, and Rochester, the University of Minnesota hospital, and the Mayo Clinic.
Clean air and water10,000 lakes, the Boundary Waters Canoe Area, the Mississippi River (one of the biggest American National Parks), Superior National Forest, ... Minnesotans spend a lot of time out of doors all year long and there is a real effort to manage natural areas through fish catch-and-release, cleaning boats to avoid the transport of invasive plants like milfoil, and managing how much salt is dropped on the roads because if it's on the road, it will drain off the road.
Downsides? Not the cheapest place to live. Housing is not ridiculous; median price in the Twin Cities metro is just over $300,000; median for the entire state is around $250,000. Taxes are high but at least I see where most of them go. I lived in New York for many years, taxed even more than Minnesota, and never could figure out where all that money went. Outstate is learning to be neighbors with people who aren't white, of northern European descent, and Christian. Many Minnesotans have lived here all their lives (except for brief departures for school/military service/work) so they're friends with people they've known since grade school and sometimes they believe they don't need any new friends, so it can be a little hard to assimilate. I'm happy to say that, after almost 40 years here, people no longer assume I'm from someplace else.
The best of both worlds might be living in Duluth (if you can stand the cold and the short growing season) or Rochester (biggest town for miles around and revolves mostly around Mayo now that IBM is pretty much gone). Or northern Iowa (Des Moines is four hours away by car if it's not icy). Or Sioux Falls, South Dakota (also four hours by car but also Covid Country right now). Or Fargo, North Dakota (across the river from Moorhead, MN). There are annual issues with the Sioux River overflowing its banks but you can move enough inland that that's not a problem.
Other factors: Minnesota public schools in general score toward the top in standardized testing. We are among the top states for volunteer hours worked and for showing up to vote. We have more large Fortune companies (3M, Best Buy, Cargill, Ecolab, Mayo, Medtronic, Target, UnitedHealth, USBank) than you'd think. And Minnesota is the smallest market that has all four major pro sports (but doesn't win zip at any of them; sports fans in Minnesota build character). Minnesota has been a net population gainer for many years.
frugal-one
12-1-20, 2:16pm
I think I would research Canada more.... when I checked it was prohibitive to older people. If this is an option, I would leave the US. You can always be a snowbird.
Steve, I would second the recommendation for MN. It actually shares some qualities with Vermont (healthy, beautiful, cold). And it's one of the friendliest places I've ever been to. I LOVE Minnesotans. Including the ones that are members of my family, of course.
rosarugosa
12-2-20, 8:54am
Catherine: Pittsfield would also be one of my suggestions, or N Adams or one of the surrounding towns. There are some pretty reasonably priced properties out there. Lenox is lovely but pricier. Pittsfield has a big medical center, but I don't know much about it, and that would be an important consideration. Pittsfield and N Adams would be pretty walkable.
I don't know VT very well but we've been to Bennington a few times and that seems like a charming, walkable area with reasonable real estate prices.
I think Bath, ME is another cool location that I entertain in my fantasies.
I've never been to MN, but I've always thought it has many characteristics that remind me of New England.
I forgot western Wisconsin. Maybe eastern Wisconsin, too; never been there. Wisconsin, though, has a distinctly different vibe than Minnesota; more like Iowa or the Dakotas. Not implying bad or good; just saying it's not just a matter of driving past a line that states "Welcome to Wisconsin".
I forgot western Wisconsin. Maybe eastern Wisconsin, too; never been there. Wisconsin, though, has a distinctly different vibe than Minnesota; more like Iowa or the Dakotas. Not implying bad or good; just saying it's not just a matter of driving past a line that states "Welcome to Wisconsin".
I think that vibe thing mainly applies to the MSP region. The rest of the state doesn’t seem to harbor the same attitude.
Teacher Terry
12-2-20, 10:41am
In 1992 I went to graduate school in Menominee Wisconsin. It had 20k people and was a college town. A couple hours from Minneapolis. I have been gone so long from the extreme cold that I don’t think I could go back. Des Moines seemed like a nice town when we visited a few years ago. The small towns in upstate New York aren’t friendly at all unless you have roots in the town.
We enjoyed our 4 years in Wyoming at 7000 feet. Snow started in October and ended in early May.
That was 30 years ago - not sure if I would still like it. But I found it pleasant then because the sun was shining a lot. It was the brightness that made it feel welcoming and happy outdoors in the winter.
Teacher Terry
12-2-20, 1:42pm
Nevada gets a ton of sun. Wisconsin and Minnesota not so much:))
I think that vibe thing mainly applies to the MSP region. The rest of the state doesn’t seem to harbor the same attitude.
No, there is blue Twin Cities/Duluth and red-state rural Minnesota; that is a difference. But I know people who live in Mora and Bemidji and outside of Duluth (in NW Wisconsin) and it's ... I'll have to think of examples of the difference. It's not huge, but it's there. Gotta think about that....
iris lilies
12-2-20, 2:04pm
In 1992 I went to graduate school in Menominee Wisconsin. It had 20k people and was a college town. A couple hours from Minneapolis. I have been gone so long from the extreme cold that I don’t think I could go back. Des Moines seemed like a nice town when we visited a few years ago. The small towns in upstate New York aren’t friendly at all unless you have roots in the town.
Des Moines, my home town, has raped and pillaged its old buildings downtown to the point of being unrecognizable to me. Now it looks like Generic Midwestern City. They just need to change their name to that.
It's funny but many of my long-time Colorado neighbors migrate to Arizona every winter or plan to move there permanently to escape the long, cold winters. Seems like many of the suggestions here including Canada would feel mighty cold to someone who is older and has been living in Phoenix for a while.
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