View Full Version : Safe Places and Current Attitudes
Teacher Terry
12-10-20, 12:59pm
I sometimes search different forums and try them out. Some places are truly unpleasant places. On the opposite extreme are forums that are so focused on being safe places that they decide many subjects and words are “triggering “ and unsafe to talk about unless it’s hidden and you have to click on it. I really don’t understand people being harmed by starting to read something. If you find it disturbing why not just stop reading. It’s mostly people under 40 and makes me wonder how such people function in the world. My kids and my friends adult kids aren’t like that. Are we creating a generation of special snowflakes or are these people just in the minority? Opinions?
happystuff
12-10-20, 1:13pm
I sometimes search different forums and try them out. Some places are truly unpleasant places. On the opposite extreme are forums that are so focused on being safe places that they decide many subjects and words are “triggering “ and unsafe to talk about unless it’s hidden and you have to click on it. I really don’t understand people being harmed by starting to read something. If you find it disturbing why not just stop reading. It’s mostly people under 40 and makes me wonder how such people function in the world. My kids and my friends adult kids aren’t like that. Are we creating a generation of special snowflakes or are these people just in the minority? Opinions?
My first thought is that it's like a train wreck or accident - one just has to "look".
Staying on the same forum for a long time, sometimes TOO nasty or the same subjects over and over again are just tiresome - not necessarily safe or unsafe - just tiresome. New topics, fresh discussions, different ideas/perspectives are sometimes hard to come by when it's just the same old posters, topics, ideas, etc. going around and round. I sometimes liken forums to soap operas... you can stop watching for a year and, except for a new affair, death or baby, it's the same old story.
iris lilies
12-10-20, 1:27pm
My first thought is that it's like a train wreck or accident - one just has to "look".
Staying on the same forum for a long time, sometimes TOO nasty or the same subjects over and over again are just tiresome - not necessarily safe or unsafe - just tiresome. New topics, fresh discussions, different ideas/perspectives are sometimes hard to come by when there it's just the same old posters, topics, ideas, etc. going around and round. I sometimes liken forums to soap operas... you can stop watching for a year and, except for a new affair, death or baby, it's the same old story.
haha, so true! Good analogy.
iris lilies
12-10-20, 1:35pm
Yes the snowflake attitude rather I should say the attitude of “snowflakes “is concerning and annoying to me. On the other hand, there is a sincere effort in recent times to combat any hint of racism and other isms in social media because it is considered supportive if you stay mum and allow someone their words that convey an ism.
While I understand the sentiment to eradicate all isms, I don’t think it’s at all practical to think we can cleanse the digital world because there’s too much interpretation to give to someone’s words. And in that radical cleanup of any unacceptable words will come the disappearance of many other sentiments expressed in social media.
Free-speech and support of same is an important value to me and so I very much want us to lean on the side of allowing all kinds of speech. Even if it hurt someone’s feelings. But especially, if it is perceived it *might* hurt someone else’s feelings. See, this is where much of the cancel culture comes from—these self appointed heroes of the internet feel they must cleanse it for others. Weaker, trodd-upon others.
Part of my job at the public library was to receive complaints about library materials. A fair number of them were initiated from a place of “I am not hurt by this material but someone else may be hurt, someone who is weaker/younger/blacker/ than me. “
I've noticed it among the younger. Everything is scrutinized for shaming, triggering, bullying and fearmongering. If you don't agree with someone, you are accused of one of the above. There is no discourse unless you agree with them.
I'm only halfway kidding when I say I think it's because of participation trophies. It's interesting in my own family; the older daughter is pretty laid-back, can filter BS and go with the flow. She can take criticism. The younger flies off the handle at any. little. thing.
editing to add: I really hate that "triggering" reference. I think it takes away from true PTSD sufferers, who, unless I am mistaken, are the ones who originated that phrase.
Now, it's simply a term people (snowflakes) use when they are called out, embarrassed, or uncomfortable with a disagreement.
ApatheticNoMore
12-10-20, 2:24pm
I don't relate to the snowflakes, I'm pretty seriously liberal ;), but that is really not my crowd, and I think never really will be as a Gen Xer. It would be arrogant and presumptuous to assume how many millennials, Gen Z it really represents though.
I think it could be looked at historically as far as internet goes, the early (and yet available to the public with their dialup modems, I'm not talking early early) internet was an incredibly brutal downright abusive bullying place, oh sure the internet had and has good sides, but it seriously was. So it might be some kind of extreme overreaction in the other direction. Both of which are extreme and neither of which I have ever really related to, neither the bullying nor the censorship.
But anyway some seem so lost in their own world, so happy that everything is much more progressive in some ways these days, but so oblivious to how much better say the economy was then (and I remember) than now where it is so merciless. This is "progressive" slavery. Ah well.
If I wanted new ideas I don't think internet forums are where I'd look, nor blog comments nor etc., I'd read a book or something. What I get from reading other peoples commentary about things sometimes is to refine (not change most of the time) my thinking, but much is just shooting the breeze. I do find out where to buy tiolet paper online though :~)
Yeah, the whole situation is pretty lame. Oh wait--I can't use "lame" because it might inadvertently offend someone who doesn't understand that words can have more than one meaning.
iris lilies
12-10-20, 2:53pm
Yeah, the whole situation is pretty lame. Oh wait--I can't use "lame" because it might inadvertently offend someone who doesn't understand that words can have more than one meaning.
I would bet 10 to 1 that the vast majority of people under the age of 50 do not know the word “ Lame “meant differently abled at one time.
I really don’t understand people being harmed by starting to read something. If you find it disturbing why not just stop reading. ... My kids and my friends adult kids aren’t like that. ... Opinions?
Well.
If you haven't been traumatized by something, it is perhaps difficult to understand how things that retrigger memories/experiences of that trauma might cause issues in those who have.
I work with victims of sexual assault. At some stages in their healing journey, they are quite vulnerable to being triggered and sent to a difficult mental/emotional place by things that might not even be noticed by someone who hasn't been impacted by such abuse.
Or consider those with PTSD from combat and loud noises/fireworks/whatnot.
Or, anecdotally, I find myself far more impacted by scenes of violence and bloody injury now that I've been on hundreds of 911 calls and had people die in my hands.
iris lilies
12-10-20, 3:20pm
Well.
If you haven't been traumatized by something, it is perhaps difficult to understand how things that retrigger memories/experiences of that trauma might cause issues in those who have.
I work with victims of sexual assault. At some stages in their healing journey, they are quite vulnerable to being triggered and sent to a difficult mental/emotional place by things that might not even be noticed by someone who hasn't been impacted by such abuse.
Or consider those with PTSD from combat and loud noises/fireworks/whatnot.
Or, anecdotally, I find myself far more impacted by scenes of violence and bloody injury now that I've been on hundreds of 911 calls and had people die in my hands.
Sure, but the question is how much does the greater network of social media have to be sanitized for the very small percentage that have been severely traumatized, and then re-traumatized By something they read on the website.We can’t keep the world safe for people like that.
We cannot keep the world safe for everyone if their “safety” is defined by never being concerned, upset, or traumatized by what they read. Certainly the government can’t keep everyone safe.
I suppose trigger warnings are OK as long as it’s not done excessively. Almost everything I listen to is adult content so they all have trigger warnings or warnings of sex, strong language, drinking, smoking,. OK whatever I don’t even see those warnings anymore, they’re ubiquitous
Teacher Terry
12-10-20, 3:28pm
Bae, actually I have been traumatized but I don’t expect people not to talk about this stuff online. I skip reading it. I spend my career working with people with disabilities and do understand triggers. But people are using the word too loosely and it takes away from people with real issues. Plus again you can decide not to read something. That’s different from seeing or hearing it.
Kay, participation trophies were a really bad idea. Totally agree IL that censorship is a bad idea especially for libraries.
Plus again you can decide not to read something. That’s different from seeing or hearing it.
I have been reviewing and editing academic papers in the general field of Anglo-Saxon, Norse, Celtic, Roman, and Greek classical literature. The topics often involve rape, incest, violent dismemberment, and so on.
They quite rightly have a warning slide or notice attached to the conference versions, so that people attending the presentation have a moment to decide if they want to leave the room, or to not participate, or to gather their thoughts/strength to proceed.
However, if this is your field of study, you don't really have the option of deciding to "just not read something". And it's tricky, of course, to even decide to not read something without some indication of the contents of what you are about to read - once you've read it, you can't really rewind your brain and pretend you didn't read it.
Teacher Terry
12-10-20, 3:37pm
That’s absolutely true Bae.
catherine
12-10-20, 3:48pm
It's an interesting question.
TT, maybe it's the language that's a little off-putting--"this triggers me". "I'm triggered by this." I think earlier generations were more stoic, but they also simply pushed aside their feelings--they didn't announce them. I remember MIL saying when we would propose a movie like Angela's Ashes (which she lived), "I'll no watch that--it's too depressing. Why would you want to watch something that depressing?" Or veterans come back from the wars completely tongue-tied. I know a lot of Vietnam vets who won't talk about the war.
So, maybe they were triggered, but they just handled it differently. In this world, where everything is in front of you and you have little time to discern whether or not you want to be part of it. Back then there was more space for avoidance.
When it comes to being triggered by sins against social mores, like a white person being "triggered" by racism, some of that might be virtue signaling.
Yeah, the whole situation is pretty lame. Oh wait--I can't use "lame" because it might inadvertently offend someone who doesn't understand that words can have more than one meaning.
I've seen FB posters chastized for using the word "inappropriately."
Yes - the internet has changed this. Prior to 1990 one could just ignore things more easily.
There’s people who are uncomfortable with certain things, and there’s people with diagnosable PTSD. There is a difference, and trigger warnings can seem to confuse them.
But then one could develop problems from repeated viewing of things that makes them uncomfortable. About 20% of us are a match for what is described as a “highly sensitive person”.
I’m glad we live in a world that is trying to be kinder. I can tolerate trigger warnings if it makes others feel safer.
Teacher Terry
12-10-20, 4:19pm
My ex was definitely traumatized by being in Vietnam and rarely talked about it. He mostly avoided war movies. I think what was annoying me was people scolding others for language.
I think what was annoying me was people scolding others for language.
Some folks find trigger warnings can trigger an emotional response.
"I'll no watch that--it's too depressing. Why would you want to watch something that depressing?"
That's the way I felt about Ingmar Bergman movies. >8)
I think many people online are confusing "triggering" with "upsetting" or "depressing". For upsetting and depressing, one would avoid that material. If one has PTSD from sexual assault, combat, sudden life threatening illness, etc., then being triggered is a very real thing and does not involve choosing or not choosing to go there--rather, the body is back in the experience and it is terrifying.
So maybe those who are complaining about internet discourse should find a new word. For the record, I find those that bully others on the internet to be both upsetting and depressing, and I try to avoid those conversations where the bullying is occurring.
But I have a much lower? higher? threshold for bullying, and there are nice people on various forums whose style bothers me, or whose actions in responding to others bothers me, so I try to avoid those conversations, and if they are endemic, then step away from those forums. I.e., what some consider to be lively discourse strikes me as bullying. There really is not a right or wrong, just a choice to associate with those people or not.
I also think participation awards for children are a very sound idea. Children's sports are ridiculously competitive, and it would be far better if the point was to make the child grow up wanting to play sports, be active, and have fun with others.
I think that younger people have been living sanitized lives instead of living through difficult situation and learning to manage challenges and build resilience.
The amount of time and resources that post-secondary institutions have to spend on mental health issues is unbelievable. A friend helped with a group of 13 year-old girls learning to manage llamas. There was a competition for best groomed llama and several of these girls had never had to compete and had total meltdowns. I think that goal of removing competition by giving everyone a 'participation" ribbon instead of a 1st, 2nd etc prize has created part of the problem.
A small welding business owner who had built it up from scratch has experienced youngsters out of trade school who after 2 weeks of work in training asked for a raise in wages since they were now experienced. They quit when this was denied.
We, as a society, seemed to have raised "indulged pets" instead of resourceful human beings because we wanted them to be totally safe and have everything with no effort or their part. Like many other things, this is not a universal situation but often enough to cause concern.
I guess that is so far from my experience with my own kids, who are in their 30's now, that I have trouble comprehending this. I just did not experience any of this with my kids or their friends, who were all hard working kids, with jobs from the age of 16, never allowances after that, etc. I think that they were in the much maligned era of participation trophies but maybe not--they liked summer and they liked playing t-ball and swimming and hanging out, but there weren't a ton of activities like what you are describing with the llamas. None were very athletic, and a little less emphasis on winning would have been nice in hockey, soccer, and baseball, the three sports they did play.
The only one who does sports now is a runner, and he tries to beat his own personal best, and he gets his kids into running, but that's about it for sports for mine.
I don’t think it’s to anyone’s benefit, especially young people, to shelter them in “safe spaces” uncontaminated by threatening alternative viewpoints. Eventually, the big bad unsympathetic world will intrude and they won’t be able to deal with it.
I’m a free speech absolutist. I would rather see a hundred people feeling offended or threatened than one person censored.
rosarugosa
12-11-20, 7:03am
It did please me greatly when the rigorous censorship on the SLF came to an end, and we can now throw around such obscenities as "wristwatch" with impunity!
iris lilies
12-11-20, 8:14am
It did please me greatly when the rigorous censorship on the SLF came to an end, and we can now throw around such obscenities as "wristwatch" with impunity!
Was “ wristwatch” on the stop list? Haha.
I don’t think it’s to anyone’s benefit, especially young people, to shelter them in “safe spaces” uncontaminated by threatening alternative viewpoints. Eventually, the big bad unsympathetic world will intrude and they won’t be able to deal with it.
I’m a free speech absolutist. I would rather see a hundred people feeling offended or threatened than one person censored.
Agreed. I’ve known and worked with a number of young people who had issues with any sort of adversity, couldn’t handle different opinions than theirs, had no conception of working their way up the ladder/taking the time to get experience, etc.
catherine
12-11-20, 9:19am
I guess that is so far from my experience with my own kids, who are in their 30's now, that I have trouble comprehending this. I just did not experience any of this with my kids or their friends, who were all hard working kids, with jobs from the age of 16, never allowances after that, etc. I think that they were in the much maligned era of participation trophies but maybe not--they liked summer and they liked playing t-ball and swimming and hanging out, but there weren't a ton of activities like what you are describing with the llamas. None were very athletic, and a little less emphasis on winning would have been nice in hockey, soccer, and baseball, the three sports they did play.
The only one who does sports now is a runner, and he tries to beat his own personal best, and he gets his kids into running, but that's about it for sports for mine.
I agree. To be honest, if my kids had a propensity towards being triggered, they would have had real problems with DH. He triggered them all the time, and still does, but he calls it b__-busting.
iris lilies
12-11-20, 10:15am
I agree. To be honest, if my kids had a propensity towards being triggered, they would have had real problems with DH. He triggered them all the time, and still does, but he calls it b__-busting.
Here’s why he can bust their BLLs and they are OK with it: Because he loves them, and he does things that shows he cares for them. He put them first.And they know it.
In the universe of raising children, I think that a dad who attempts to toughen them up a little with a bit of ball busting is not the worst thing in the world.
happystuff
12-11-20, 11:10am
I’m glad we live in a world that is trying to be kinder. I can tolerate trigger warnings if it makes others feel safer.
I agree.
I’m glad we live in a world that is trying to be kinder. I can tolerate trigger warnings if it makes others feel safer.
The world is not trying to be kinder. The world is indifferent. We can create temporary bubbles to isolate people from that fact, but the inevitable collision with reality can be cruel indeed.
happystuff
12-11-20, 11:39am
The world is not trying to be kinder. The world is indifferent. We can create temporary bubbles to isolate people from that fact, but the inevitable collision with reality can be cruel indeed.
Yes, it CAN be cruel, but it doesn't NEED to be... it is a choice that every person has the freedom and ability to make. Be kind - don't be kind. It really does boil down to that simple.
And since it is evident around the world, and even around these forums, that folks will choose the "don't be kind", yes, it is something others will/may collide with - the choice is still theirs to respond to the unkindness with kindness.
But to say that "the world is not trying to be kinder" - I believe to be false because I am part of the world and I am trying to be kinder. :)
ApatheticNoMore
12-11-20, 12:42pm
There have always been parents that are less than optimal in various ways (probably around half?), some coddle, and some leave their kids black and blue with bruises, some entirely ignore their kids, some are too overwhelmed with never ending problems of various sorts to be great parents. You need a license to fish but not to reproduce. I don't know that it is any more common than it has ever been, there may be a higher stress level in society which makes things harder is all.
Because I don't see any of this safe space stuff as rooted in "weakness" per se, but a choice about how to operate, a misguided choice IMO, but not anything else.
By far the biggest temporary bubble to isolate kids from the cruelty of the world is: growing up in a functional family that isn't overwhelmed with external problems either. But that kind of temporary bubble to isolate kids doesn't seem to have negative effects. Yes sure such young people are not so terrorized of the world to start out (of course bad things can happen to traumatize them later), but that doesn't really seem to be a negative in dealing with it.
Kindness is a wonderful thing. But it seems to me that launching people into the world who are frightened and intolerant of alternative views, who feel entitled to success without working (and yes, competing) for it and expecting the world to love them like a parent is a most refined sort of cruelty.
Sometimes you fail despite your best efforts. Not everyone will treat you kindly or fairly. Not everyone will think the same way you do. Not everyone is willing to take your feelings into account for every transaction in life. Not everyone will even define “kindness” the way you do. Raising kids who aren’t prepared for that strikes me as irresponsible parenting.
This is not an either/or: kindness or reality.
This is a both/and: prep the kids for reality and still show kindness.
ApatheticNoMore
12-11-20, 12:59pm
But with almost everything in the world MORE competitive than it used to be (including say getting into colleges, including most jobs depending on what age a young person works, maybe they go to college before they ever work but whatever, they'll encounter competition of one sort or other), I can't see where anyone would get the idea that kids are raised to feel entitled to success without working anymore than they have ever been, and yes no doubt there have always ever been *some* parents like that.
Better off parents may provide more help to their kids but unless there is that type of dysfunctional dynamic going on I can't see that this really hurts them either (maybe in having less empathy or something than if they had a PhD from the school of hard knocks? Yes perhaps)
I used to think my parents were of the permissive/indulgent type, then I learned more about parenting styles, they were actually more permissive-neglectful (uninvolved), neither discipline nor involvement nor guidance. It can produce a fierce independence of sorts (if you are like trying to raise Howard Roark). But it's not a great way to go through life or all that functional in the world.
happystuff
12-11-20, 1:42pm
It seems to me that the conversation is trying to cover several different aspects at this point - child-rearing, parental practices, entitlement issues, individual expectations (at home and outside the home), personal/individual attitudes concerning intolerance, "being prepared for adulthood" (not sure how to phrase that or at what age the expectation is for this to kick in - which is a whole other can of worms! LOL). A lot of these things are "scenario" based as there is such a wide variety/degree/opinions re: what is intolerance, how should one raise a child, set definition of competition, etc.
"Reality" varies for everyone - my reality is not the same as your reality; my life is not the same as your life. These differences still do not negate the freedom and choice to practice kindness or unkindness.
I agree with Tammy's: This is not an either/or: kindness or reality.
frugal-one
12-11-20, 2:39pm
Kindness is a wonderful thing. But it seems to me that launching people into the world who are frightened and intolerant of alternative views, who feel entitled to success without working (and yes, competing) for it and expecting the world to love them like a parent is a most refined sort of cruelty.
Sometimes you fail despite your best efforts. Not everyone will treat you kindly or fairly. Not everyone will think the same way you do. Not everyone is willing to take your feelings into account for every transaction in life. Not everyone will even define “kindness” the way you do. Raising kids who aren’t prepared for that strikes me as irresponsible parenting.
Hey, we agree!!!
iris lilies
12-11-20, 2:44pm
So let me ask you kind people this: is the Mr. money mustache forums vibe “kind? “
Should that site be sanitized for those whose feelings are hurt and are easily triggered by being yelled at for overspending?
I’m sure you can see what I’m getting at. The idea that all places should be sanitized for gentle kindness seems silly to me. Not all places are appropriate for all people. Not all books are appropriate for all people. Not all films are appropriate for all people.
What doesn’t get a trigger warning? What is the responsibility of the easily triggered to assess the overall vibe of a place and stay away if it’s dangerous? And frankly, “dangerous” is overused in anonymous forums like this.
Teacher Terry
12-11-20, 2:56pm
I like that the MM forums have a middle of the road approach. Some places want to coddle people and that’s annoying.
I don’t think it’s an either/or thing either. I am not anti-kindness.
But I do think the safe space concept, especially as it applies to the young, is not healthy or productive. Look at all those campuses where students are driven to tantrums or even violence by differing viewpoints. I’m trying to raise a kid who enjoys a good argument rather than one so afraid of other ideas that they see censoring, silencing or canceling anyone who doesn’t think like they do as anything other than intellectual cowardice.
ApatheticNoMore
12-11-20, 3:19pm
The world by and large lost it's ticket to yell at me for how I live my life when I moved out of my parents house and became a full-fledged adult. Provided it isn't harming others, natch, with the caveat that our entire way of life does harm of sorts, but nor does almost anyone live outside it, so it's kinda a tricky grey area. But sure yell at me if I am breathing indoors and not wearing a mask in an airborne pandemic, as that is overtly harmful to others and unnecessary.
Learn from others, sure, be yelled at by others, haha nah the grown ups did it when I was little, but then I became an adult. I gotta please the boss person enough, but even in that case if they are yelling at me all the time, then I need a new job.
I don’t think it’s an either/or thing either. I am not anti-kindness.
But I do think the safe space concept, especially as it applies to the young, is not healthy or productive. Look at all those campuses where students are driven to tantrums or even violence by differing viewpoints. I’m trying to raise a kid who enjoys a good argument rather than one so afraid of other ideas that they see censoring, silencing or canceling anyone who doesn’t think like they do as anything other than intellectual cowardice.
This post initially struck me as humorous as so many voters/politicians classified as mature adults are doing that right now in US politics. That said, I agree with you.
This post initially struck me as humorous as so many voters/politicians classified as mature adults are doing that right now in US politics. That said, I agree with you.
Well, we haven’t descended to the level of Human Rights Tribunals, but I fear that day may be coming.
Well, we haven’t descended to the level of Human Rights Tribunals, but I fear that day may be coming.
We've been having pīdòu sessions on the village green here since this summer.
rosarugosa
12-11-20, 7:21pm
So let me ask you kind people this: is the Mr. money mustache forums vibe “kind? “
Should that site be sanitized for those whose feelings are hurt and are easily triggered by being yelled at for overspending?
I’m sure you can see what I’m getting at. The idea that all places should be sanitized for gentle kindness seems silly to me. Not all places are appropriate for all people. Not all books are appropriate for all people. Not all films are appropriate for all people.
What doesn’t get a trigger warning? What is the responsibility of the easily triggered to assess the overall vibe of a place and stay away if it’s dangerous? And frankly, “dangerous” is overused in anonymous forums like this.
I do think the vibe there is kind. I see lots of really intelligent discussion conducted in a respectful manner, and people are generally trying to provide helpful input. When someone gets a little nasty, they are generally called out for it.
We've been having pīdòu sessions on the village green here since this summer.
Hah! Sounds interesting. Will you describe one? Did they grow out of the small protests you wrote about earlier in the year?
We've been having pīdòu sessions on the village green here since this summer.
Once again, I am being educated in seeing more of the world and its thinking. I had no idea what a pidou might be, (how did you find all those accents?).
Wikipedia once again enlightened me somewhat. I am grateful for Wiki and give the site annual support to keep it going.
I second Simone's query, Bae.
iris lilies
12-12-20, 9:03am
I do think the vibe there is kind. I see lots of really intelligent discussion conducted in a respectful manner, and people are generally trying to provide helpful input. When someone gets a little nasty, they are generally called out for it.
I don’t think it’s unkind. But it has a reputation you know for Face punching people who drive clown cars and do astonishingly stupid things like having several children or God forbid pets.
We've been having pīdòu sessions on the village green here since this summer.
Got bored with goat yoga did they?
I don’t think it’s unkind. But it has a reputation you know for Face punching people who drive clown cars and do astonishingly stupid things like having several children or God forbid pets.
No pets!!!! Who, what moron, is crazy enough to suggest such a thing? Is that an example of "face punching"? Inquiring minds would like to know please.
iris lilies
12-12-20, 10:07am
No pets!!!! Who, what moron, is crazy enough to suggest such a thing? Is that an example of "face punching"? Inquiring minds would like to know please.
Pete, Mr. Money Mustache himself, advocates no pets because they are expensive.
Clearly Pete doesn’t love cats or dogs!
I don’t think he harps on that as much as clown cars. Clown cars are, I guess, any kind of expensive vehicle where you make payments and they guzzle gas.
ApatheticNoMore
12-12-20, 10:51am
Pete, Mr. Money Mustache himself, advocates no pets because they are expensive.
of course the same applies to children, and they are more expensive. What does he advocate having one just to get the "need" (for a legacy or for someone that one hopes will visit one in the old folks home?) to have kids out of your system?
rosarugosa
12-12-20, 11:00am
Pete, Mr. Money Mustache himself, advocates no pets because they are expensive.
Clearly Pete doesn’t love cats or dogs!
I don’t think he harps on that as much as clown cars. Clown cars are, I guess, any kind of expensive vehicle where you make payments and they guzzle gas.
But he has a kid, and that's even worse. Some things I can certainly take with a grain of salt. There's a lot of wisdom over there, but not everything that works for Pete is going to work for everyone else. Isn't divorce generally supposed to be one of the worst things you can do in terms of accumulating wealth?
rosarugosa
12-12-20, 11:02am
of course the same applies to children, and they are more expensive. What does he advocate having one just to get the "need" (for a legacy or for someone that one hopes will visit one in the old folks home?) to have kids out of your system?
Clearly our thinking is on a similar track. I think having just one child is not optimal, unless there is no choice in the matter. I've never met an only child who didn't wish for siblings.
But he has a kid, and that's even worse. Some things I can certainly take with a grain of salt. There's a lot of wisdom over there, but not everything that works for Pete is going to work for everyone else. Isn't divorce generally supposed to be one of the worst things you can do in terms of accumulating wealth?
True. I think it would hurt to be his child or his ex-wife reading those opinions, but I think he constructed a cult of personality, and obnoxiousness was part of the shtick.
Similarly, the Minimalists constructed a cult of personality around earnest "we're the first people that this has occurred to" ness, and we are holier than thou money grubbing McMansion dwellers, even though one of them was talking about his 100 dollar pair of blue jeans.
It's hype.
I would characterize the MMM forums as having a high obnoxiousness quotient, as the posters vie to sound like Pete, and it is hip to be "face punching" and know it all.
And yes, lots and lots of great information there, if you can stand the tone.
iris lilies
12-12-20, 11:23am
Clearly our thinking is on a similar track. I think having just one child is not optimal, unless there is no choice in the matter. I've never met an only child who didn't wish for siblings.
Are you kidding? I know Only children who are happy to be that. I would’ve been happy to be an only child. I spent my formative years as an only.
Teacher Terry
12-12-20, 11:26am
I would have preferred to be a only child. Being the youngest I had the experience for awhile until my sister moved back home.
catherine
12-12-20, 11:29am
Re MMM Pete: Some people collect stamps, some go to concerts, and he collects dollar bills. His "collection" drives all of his life choices, clearly. Seriously, I remember him telling the story about when he was young he would iron dollar bills. I think he's written some great blog posts, but like a lot of inspirational single-focus people, he takes his obsession with saving to an extreme, which is his right. He's not hurting anyone. Was Amy D any different? She did have a lot of kids, but her frugality was also what most "normal" Americans would consider extreme.
But she was a lot nicer. I don't think she ever "face punched" anyone.
ApatheticNoMore
12-12-20, 11:34am
Clown cars are, I guess, any kind of expensive vehicle where you make payments and they guzzle gas.
oh phew so not the Tesla ;)
iris lilies
12-12-20, 11:36am
But he has a kid, and that's even worse. Some things I can certainly take with a grain of salt. There's a lot of wisdom over there, but not everything that works for Pete is going to work for everyone else. Isn't divorce generally supposed to be one of the worst things you can do in terms of accumulating wealth?
Yes, divorce can be devastating to finances.Certainly on the top list of bad things to happen financially. But I suppose if marriage produces devastating finances, divorce could be a way to recover have a partner who over spends.
iris lilies
12-12-20, 11:37am
oh phew so not the Tesla ;)
Lately he’s written about Tesla but because I don’t read Pete’s columns often, I’m not sure where he comes down on Tesla. I believe he was flirting with the idea of getting one. But mainly he’s Mr. bicycle man, he bicycles everywhere he possibly can.
early morning
12-12-20, 11:40am
I found MMM to be too focused on money for its own sake for me, and it feels forced, somehow. It just didn't work for me, but I recommend it to people who ask about money-saving forums, along with this one, Dollar Stretcher, and Dave Ramsey -although I don't frequent his site much due to the religious angle. But it's good to have alternatives! Catherine, I miss Amy D - still have all of her newsletters and read through them from time to time. I pick up her books if I find them at rummage sales, and pass them out when it's appropriate.
Yes, divorce can be devastating to finances.Certainly on the top list of bad things to happen financially. But I suppose if marriage produces devastating finances, divorce could be a way to recover have a partner who over spends.
Yes. I took a bit of a haircut, net-worth-wise, from my recent divorce.
However, my monthly expenses have dropped by 70%. Apparently the partner was spending like a drunken sailor, and funneling funds to their family and romantic interests in significant amounts.
2.5 years after the initial splitup, and 1 year after the finalization of the divorce and settlement, I am back up to about 80% of the pre-splitup household net worth, am spending far far less, and am much happier.
Looking at the financial records over the past 20 years, I see that getting married in the first place was the worst move I've made, in terms of accumulating assets.
Another huge Amy D fan here! I think I passed my books along, but I should find a copy at a thrift store and reread them--always coming up with great ideas, and her newsletter was really formative for me, when she would break things down like how much it cost to make cocoa with evaporated milk, etc. It really helped me economise after my divorce, as did Your Money or Your Life. Lots of different ways to think about things, which is also what I find in the MMM forums, too, like with the real estate forums. So there is much good stuff there.
I just liked Amy D's approach a lot.
happystuff
12-12-20, 12:04pm
So let me ask you kind people this: is the Mr. money mustache forums vibe “kind? “
Should that site be sanitized for those whose feelings are hurt and are easily triggered by being yelled at for overspending?
I’m sure you can see what I’m getting at. The idea that all places should be sanitized for gentle kindness seems silly to me. Not all places are appropriate for all people. Not all books are appropriate for all people. Not all films are appropriate for all people.
What doesn’t get a trigger warning? What is the responsibility of the easily triggered to assess the overall vibe of a place and stay away if it’s dangerous? And frankly, “dangerous” is overused in anonymous forums like this.
Don't go to that forum, so I can't answer.
happystuff
12-12-20, 12:11pm
Another huge Amy D fan here! I think I passed my books along, but I should find a copy at a thrift store and reread them--always coming up with great ideas, and her newsletter was really formative for me, when she would break things down like how much it cost to make cocoa with evaporated milk, etc. It really helped me economise after my divorce, as did Your Money or Your Life. Lots of different ways to think about things, which is also what I find in the MMM forums, too, like with the real estate forums. So there is much good stuff there.
I just liked Amy D's approach a lot.
Ditto this. Her books really helped when the kids were little and income was limited. We always managed and I credit many of her ideas to actually making it easier in many ways.
iris lilies
12-12-20, 12:44pm
Yes. I took a bit of a haircut, net-worth-wise, from my recent divorce.
However, my monthly expenses have dropped by 70%. Apparently the partner was spending like a drunken sailor, and funneling funds to their family and romantic interests in significant amounts.
2.5 years after the initial splitup, and 1 year after the finalization of the divorce and settlement, I am back up to about 80% of the pre-splitup household net worth, am spending far far less, and am much happier.
Looking at the financial records over the past 20 years, I see that getting married in the first place was the worst move I've made, in terms of accumulating assets.
That financial recovery is encouraging bae! Good show.
For me, marrying DH who came with a large stash and frugal ways was a good financial move.
My first marriage led to children, which was priceless. Maybe they will care for me in my old age, who knows?
My second marriage--too early to say, I guess. He makes a mean bookcase. He helps me stay sane navigating the craziness of my family's end of life issues. Net worthwise, I guess if we both live til we die, then we will be okay.
JaneV2.0
12-12-20, 12:56pm
I wished for siblings until I got one. :~)
I know several happy only children; in fact I've never met one who particularly wanted siblings.
ToomuchStuff
12-12-20, 1:08pm
I found MMM to be too focused on money for its own sake for me, and it feels forced, somehow. It just didn't work for me, but I recommend it to people who ask about money-saving forums, along with this one, Dollar Stretcher, and Dave Ramsey -
What is this dollar stretcher forum? Dave Ramsey has a forum?
I looked, a long time ago, at MMM and it was like listening to DR on the radio, when he starts getting religious. Enough to tune out.
I would like to see if he has a forum, that has an atheist/agnostic section. LOL
happystuff
12-12-20, 2:06pm
Being one of many, there were times when I was a young child that I wondered what it would have been like to have been an only child. I like to think I am a bit wiser as well as older and I feel blessed and I treasured all my siblings. I know it is not this way for a lot of folks, so I am so grateful.
Not by choice but as it turned out, we had an only child. She is extremely social and has many friends, a few of which she is probably closer to than siblings. My only regret to having an only would be that when we grow feeble someday, she will carry that burden alone. We can all say that we will make plans for our own care in old age but my observations are that children end up being very involved when parents age. I will say that being a millennial, she is far more in tune with diversity issues than her parents and doesn't hold back if we say something she finds offensive. However, I found it interesting that I made a comment once about how consumer goods don't consider aging hands in their design and she didn't get that concept.
With the silver lining of lots of spare time recently, I’ve started reading again through the Mr Money Mustache blog posts. I don’t go to the forums cause I don’t want to create a profile. Ten years ago when I read some posts I was irritated by the tone. Now I’m not. I guess I got old enough to learn from it, but also laugh at it when it’s too narrow minded. Like the people posting there are my kids and I know stuff they don’t so whatever ...
Getting old can be a good thing.
Also - in my recent readings I see that their divorce cost less than 500 cause they cooperated in it and did it themselves. No lawyers. And I respect that, and also respect that they live a few blocks apart and continue with full cooperation in raising their son.
happystuff
12-12-20, 5:15pm
Getting old can be a good thing.
The reality is, if you don't die young, you get old. It's just the way it is. Fight it or embrace it, but regardless of how much one fights it, one still ages. LOL. All this to say, I agree - I, personally, think getting old is a good thing - for me! (is that "pc" enough? ROFLOL)
rosarugosa
12-13-20, 7:33am
Not by choice but as it turned out, we had an only child. She is extremely social and has many friends, a few of which she is probably closer to than siblings. My only regret to having an only would be that when we grow feeble someday, she will carry that burden alone. We can all say that we will make plans for our own care in old age but my observations are that children end up being very involved when parents age. I will say that being a millennial, she is far more in tune with diversity issues than her parents and doesn't hold back if we say something she finds offensive. However, I found it interesting that I made a comment once about how consumer goods don't consider aging hands in their design and she didn't get that concept.
I worked with a young woman a long time ago. She had a toddler, a dog, a cat, a hamster and some goldfish. When she announced that she was expecting another child, I said something kind of smart-ass/kidding about didn't she have her hands full already, and she said that the dog and the cat and the hamster and the goldfish weren't going to help her son take care of her and her husband when they got older. That kind of stuck with me for some reason. I've seen a couple of only children manage the aging parent thing alone and it wasn't easy. Then again, sometimes dealing with siblings can make things worse, depending on the siblings. The human condition kind of sucks in a lot of ways.
catherine
12-13-20, 9:18am
I worked with a young woman a long time ago. She had a toddler, a dog, a cat, a hamster and some goldfish. When she announced that she was expecting another child, I said something kind of smart-ass/kidding about didn't she have her hands full already, and she said that the dog and the cat and the hamster and the goldfish weren't going to help her son take care of her and her husband when they got older. That kind of stuck with me for some reason.
Of all the reasons and non-reasons I've had for having 4 kids, having someone to take care of me in old age never once occurred to me. That seems a bit presumptuous--I don't think it's a given at all that your kids will care for you, and I don't really think it's right to expect it. It's a stupid reason to have more than one, if you ask me--like hedging your bets using a human life.
Teacher Terry
12-13-20, 10:01am
Catherine, I totally agree. When we moved to Kenosha we were the only ones helping my parents. When we were forced to leave if I wanted a career my siblings finally had to help. My sister said once she wished I still was local because I would be a bigger help than our brother. In reality I would have done everything like the 14 years my dad was sick and they would have done nothing.
[QUOTE=catherine;370088]Of all the reasons and non-reasons I've had for having 4 kids, having someone to take care of me in old age never once occurred to me. That seems a bit presumptuous--I don't think it's a given at all that your kids will care for you, and I don't really think it's right to expect it. It's a stupid reason to have more than one, if you ask me--like hedging your bets using a human life.[/QUOTE
Ditto.
I had wanted 4 children. After the second turned two, DH and I talked about more children in depth, weighing the sense of family, the rapidly changing mobility of the world, cost of living and long-term education - all the rational reasons, pro and con. Then, in his usual matter of fact way, he asked if it was really important to me to have more and go through the pregnancy and commitment that I had experienced with the first two. He was a very involved dad so no concerns about lack of support but he fully acknowledged that I had a larger part of the responsibility day to day. I worked part-time and he was full-time. He would agree to whatever I really wanted. I decided no more and chose a tubal ligation. I had a twinge of regret one day out of the blue about five years later, wondered where that came from and then never again.
pinkytoe
12-13-20, 12:01pm
I doubt anyone anymore has multiple children so that their elderly years are covered. But...it was/is certainly an expectation for prior generations. My in-laws were old school Germans who expected such. MIL still has her DD waiting on her hand and foot even though the poor girl works full-time and has her own family concerns to keep up with. Come to think of it, it was I, the only daughter who ended up tending to my mother after her strokes. The sons were all too far away. But I guess that's another topic having strayed from the original query.
Yes it used to be the girls who were expected to care for the parents. Now it’s whoever lives close by.
I never had kids so that they would care for me. I had kids because I love babies and children. And now I have a daughter in law who says we will never go to a nursing home as she will care for us. I could say she doesn’t understand what she is promising but she was a home health aide for several years. She might be serious. I tell her that if I hit her or pee on her couch she has to send me to a nursing home. Ha
Many options exist today for aging people who don't have children. Of course they cost money, like everything else. My wife's mother lives in a senior housing complex that checks on her daily, provides meals and will move her over to memory care or more critical care if and or when the time arrives. Her sister had no children and is in a similar building. My wife's mother wanted to take the burden off of my wife, so she chose this route when her husband, and my wife's father, unexpectedly passed away a few years ago. Though we would help her out in a flash, we feel a lot better knowing that she's surrounded by nurses and social workers who can attend to her much quicker than we could.
An accusation once circulated that people who chose not to have children did so for selfish reasons, but I see just as many people having children for selfish reasons. How many times have I heard the "who will take care of me when I'm old?" or "they're part of my retirement plan" arguments. So it's refreshing to see parents here who had children simply because they wanted to. Very refreshing.
Further, my parents have close friends who had three children, two of which passed away in the past five years. They have a daughter remaining who lives far away. My wife's grandmother also told an interesting story of when she worked at a hospital and a man who had passed away arrived. He had nine children, all were contacted about their father's death and none of them showed up to the hospital. Not one. There was likely an interesting story behind that one, but she never found out why. So life doles out no guarantees.
Teacher Terry
12-13-20, 10:40pm
I would never live with my kids because it’s too hard on marriages.
I would never live with my kids because it’s too hard on marriages.
Ha. My Dad is about to move in with me for a few months :-)
Teacher Terry
12-14-20, 1:25pm
A few months isn’t forever:))
A few months isn’t forever:))
We had some discussions along that line :-)
Teacher Terry
12-14-20, 4:02pm
Build him a cottage on your property:))
Build him a cottage on your property:))
Alas, in its attempts to address the competing needs of affordable housing and environmental protection, my entire county puts up only a handful of "accessory dwelling unit" permits for lottery each year.
So, we have a very nice environment, and housing that is unapproachably expensive.
Winning!
iris lilies
12-14-20, 5:27pm
Alas, in its attempts to address the competing needs of affordable housing and environmental protection, my entire county puts up only a handful of "accessory dwelling unit" permits for lottery each year.
So, we have a very nice environment, and housing that is unapproachably expensive.
Winning!
Keeps the riff raff out, as is intended.
Keeps the riff raff out, as is intended.
Ah, you saw the testimony in front of the Planning Commission, then the vote by the people to approve guest homes, and then finally, the lawsuits by the local deep-pockets environmental groups to make sure "those people" wouldn't be cluttering up the place.
And now they wonder why they can't find any tradespeople to work on their mansions.
Teacher Terry
12-14-20, 9:28pm
In our neighborhood it was proposed that people could put a tiny house in their backyard if their lot was 10k sq ft. It was defeated and there were pros and cons on both sides. Our neighborhood is only a mile from downtown and older with a lack of street parking as is. The university is not that far away. Crowding and noise could become a issue. Right now the neighborhood is a mix of young families and seniors. Anytime there’s been a rental with college kids it’s been a problem. We have shortage of housing and prices just keep going up. This would have helped with providing more housing. Because we have a large old shed we would be allowed to turn that into housing if we didn’t tear it down. Also we have a partially dug out dirt basement and would be allowed to turn that into a apartment a realtor told us. Our lot is only 8k. We don’t want to do any of those.
catherine
12-15-20, 6:39am
Ah, you saw the testimony in front of the Planning Commission, then the vote by the people to approve guest homes, and then finally, the lawsuits by the local deep-pockets environmental groups to make sure "those people" wouldn't be cluttering up the place.
And now they wonder why they can't find any tradespeople to work on their mansions.
Do they allow ice shanties? We have a couple of sheds on our property that were built and recorded with the town as ice shanties, which zoning allows. We have two: one is used as a workshop and the other a garage for the the lawnmower and other outdoor tools. How does your dad like tiny house living? Once you establish a structure as a shanty, you could always sneak in electric, water, and a window or two. Who would notice?
happystuff
12-15-20, 11:15am
We actually a family down the street add a temporary small home to the side/back of their regular house. As I heard it, they went before the planning board and filed to have the temporary house placed there for their aging parents to live in and it would be removed once they passed. That little house stood there for about 10 years and was removed sometime 2019. I thought it was an excellent idea.
early morning
12-15-20, 12:05pm
I have a cousin on the cape who lives in a shed-turned-tiny-house. She has a generator and a composting toilet, hauls water - very under the radar. She says she's one of many, but no one talks about it. Seems a sensible solution to me! Housing there is pretty expensive. I've known plenty of people who have lived in quite primitive hunting cabins for varying periods of time, due to economic circumstances. I'm all for affordable housing, and also support modest zoning laws. It's a really tricky issue. No one wants to have problems in their neighborhood that negatively impact their home values, because for most people I know, their home is their primary, and often ONLY, real asset.
pinkytoe
12-15-20, 12:06pm
When we left Austin four years ago, they were beginning the process of allowing ADUs (accessory dwelling units) in many non-HOA neighborhoods. Tiny houses in backyards began springing up here and there which I think became mostly Air BnBs rather than housing. Some of the tear downs were replaced with very large houses that had separated suites for boomerang kids and elders to live in. As most things there, it was mostly a boon to higher income folks.
Teacher Terry
12-15-20, 12:11pm
Reno is becoming a place for people with lots of money. Our little house is now worth 400k. Our homeless population is growing. It wasn’t like that 24 years ago. It’s sad. It would be great if we wanted to move someplace cheaper but we don’t.
iris lilies
12-15-20, 2:56pm
We have carriage houses here in my neighborhood, but those tend to be behind very large Victorian houses. However, there are a few behind regular sized houses.
Carriage houses set a standard for people to build new houses that are small and set way back from the street. So, this is kind of an inroad for smaller houses to be built.
iris lilies
1-29-21, 1:26pm
TT, I will be sending you private email about my thoughts on your initial post here.
as an aside,
How did we get to Auxiliary dwellings from digital safe spaces? Our discussions are meandering that’s for sure!!!
gimmethesimplelife
1-29-21, 1:49pm
Reno is becoming a place for people with lots of money. Our little house is now worth 400k. Our homeless population is growing. It wasn’t like that 24 years ago. It’s sad. It would be great if we wanted to move someplace cheaper but we don’t.Phoenix is almost there in terms of housing costs. There is a small 3 bd 1.5 bath house across the street from me and three houses north on the market for $359,900 - and it's nothing special. Crazy. Same house in Nogales, AZ? Easily found for less than half that price. I see Phoenix becoming a place people cash out of to move somewhere less expensive. Rob
iris lilies
1-29-21, 2:27pm
How have you people in Phoenix not run out of water yet?
I looked at a newly-built carriage house a few years ago. A garage with small condo above it--part of a handsome new development.
How have you people in Phoenix not run out of water yet?
I assume that they bring it in from out of state, the same way LA does.
gimmethesimplelife
1-30-21, 10:17am
How have you people in Phoenix not run out of water yet?This is one of my long term worries for Arizona - even in the pandemic, this state continues to grow in population. I don't know all the ins and outs regarding water here but I do remember reading that Phoenix was good with water several more years - then what, I don't know. Sacrifices to the rain gods? (Attempt at humor).
At least this La Nina we have just had deep snow up north and beneficial rain in the deserts. Hopefully there will be more. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
1-30-21, 10:19am
I assume that they bring it in from out of state, the same way LA does.I know there are CAP canals (Central Arizona Project) that divert water from the Colorado River to Phoenix. Rob
I wish I could send you Arizonans some of my groundwater. Seriously, it's very boggy here.
GeorgeParker
1-30-21, 12:29pm
Sorry for responding to an old post in a thread that has long-since gone off topic, but I really think this ought to be said about the original thread topic.
-------------------------------------
I think that younger people have been living sanitized lives instead of living through difficult situation and learning to manage challenges and build resilience.I agree. I think every child and teenager ought to be cold and wet and hungry and exhausted and frustrated and even miserable occasionally. Not too often or too much, but just enough in carefully chosen amounts. As B.F. Skinner says in his book Walden II, all children will be frustrated and sad and will get the normal bumps and bruises regardless of what we do, but by introducing small amounts of discomfort into their lives on purpose we can prepare them to properly deal with the real misfortunes of life. A bit of difficulty, intentional or accidental, helps children to aquire endurance, determination, physical and emotional strength, and if I may use an old-fashioned word, grit!
A friend helped with a group of 13 year-old girls learning to manage llamas. There was a competition for best groomed llama and several of these girls had never had to compete and had total meltdowns. I think that goal of removing competition by giving everyone a 'participation" ribbon instead of a 1st, 2nd etc prize has created part of the problem.I see nothing at all wrong with giving people a participation ribon or some other small memento that says they took part in a certain event. Such a thing is just a memory you can hold in your hand. The problem comes when a participation trinket is treated like a trophy. IOW every time I ran a 10k race I recieved a tee-shirt with the name of the race on it. There was no pretense that I had won that shirt by being the 489th person who crossed the finish line; it was a memento, nothing more, and the prizes that went to the winners were recognized as special.
A small welding business owner who had built it up from scratch has experienced youngsters out of trade school who after 2 weeks of work in training asked for a raise in wages since they were now experienced. They quit when this was denied.That just proves that he isn't a smart businessman. When someone new is hired, the last line of the job offer should be something like, "Your salary will be $x and after xx days you'll be eligable for a raise/bonus/commission if your quality and productivity are satisfactory." That way you avoid missunderstandings that would make them unhappy, and you avoid wasting time and effort training someone who will quit because they expected to get a raise sooner. Either they take the job under those terms, or they don't. If they ask about a raise in less than xx days, you remind them of the terms of employment, and if they're not happy they quit. But at least you weeded out most of the people with unreasonable expectations right away before you started training them.
We, as a society, seemed to have raised "indulged pets" instead of resourceful human beings because we wanted them to be totally safe and have everything with no effort or their part. Like many other things, this is not a universal situation but often enough to cause concern.An excellent book on this subject that focuses specifically on college campuses and accademia is: The Coddling of The American Mind https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi2kdGulsTuAhUFI6wKHbaeBiEQFjABegQIAxAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.com%2FCoddling-American-Mind-Intentions-Generation%2Fdp%2F0735224897&usg=AOvVaw10YaQFxJDv_RGUr2wXSwDz
iris lilies
1-30-21, 12:43pm
About ribbons—
Each year at a big flower show with 20+ entries from children the judging team does in fact “ judge” and make distinguishing awards. We always put these floral arrangements into classes based on age. So, all the 6 year olds compete against each other, etc.
I want a clear 1st place winner chosen in that class. But if everyone in the class goes home with a ribbon, that is fine with me. The participation ribbon is “ honorable mention” which is neither 1st, 2nd, or 3rd place.
Now when it comes to our iris shows, we have an experienced group of kids who are not fooled by “ participation” ribbons. They go for the big Best in Show rosette and they know how to compete.
GeorgeParker
1-30-21, 2:00pm
I want a clear 1st place winner chosen in that class. But if everyone in the class goes home with a ribbon, that is fine with me. The participation ribbon is “ honorable mention” which is neither 1st, 2nd, or 3rd place.An interesting quirk of Japanese is that they don't wish each other "good luck" before a contest, a stage performance, or whatever. Instead they say "ganbare" or "ganbatte", which means "Do your best" or "Give it your best". The idea is that success comes from being prepared and making proper effort, not from luck, and whatever the outcome is, you can be satisfied if you know you gave it your best effort. https://cotoacademy.com/use-ganbare-ganbatte-ganbarimasu-japanese-give-best/
(https://cotoacademy.com/use-ganbare-ganbatte-ganbarimasu-japanese-give-best/)
GeorgeParker
1-30-21, 2:33pm
differently abledI totally despise that euphemism. If I injure my arm or leg, I have a temporary handicap or a temporary disability. If an athlete can't play because they're injured, their name gets put on the disabled list. Call it what it is. If there is something temporary or permanent that interferes with a person being able to perform the normal functions of life, it's a handicap or a disability.
That doesn't mean they're an invalid, and it certainly doesn't mean they're an in-valid person, nor does it mean they're an inferior person, but it does mean it's more difficult for them to do certain things and doing some things may require mechanical assistance. And that is the very definition of "handicap".
But now it's not good enough to get rid of words that are derogatory or intentional slurs, we have to dream up meaningless euphemisms and use them instead of simple straight-foward descriptions like "handicapped".
A "sudden savant" is differently abled, by my reckoning. I know a few people with disabilities and doubt any of them would embrace that characterization.
GeorgeParker
1-30-21, 2:53pm
I've never met an only child who didn't wish for siblings.You have now! I never had siblings and never cared if I had them or not. The other 'onlys' I grew up with mostly felt the same way. Sometimes siblings are good, sometimes siblings are a PITA. It depends on how lucky you are. But if you're an only child, your life is what it is -- you don't have to hope you'll get a good sibling instead of a PITA.
ApatheticNoMore
1-30-21, 4:07pm
My bf is an only child and wishes they had siblings. Be careful what you wish for. You think they'll outgrow the PITA phase too, that's it's just a phase, uh WRONG, it's a permanent state. Basically the same situation some have with brothers in law.
I know there are CAP canals (Central Arizona Project) that divert water from the Colorado River to Phoenix. Rob
My guess is that water rights will become an even larger issue in coming years. I live on one of the Great Lakes, which contain something like a fifth of the World’s fresh water. The states and provinces bordering the lakes have signed a compact forbidding taking water outside the Great Lakes watershed.
When I travelled through Texas in my recent south-west tour, we were informed that the aquifer under Texas was being rapidly drained by agricultural irrigation severely impacting its future.
GeorgeParker
1-31-21, 1:29pm
When I travelled through Texas in my recent south-west tour, we were informed that the aquifer under Texas was being rapidly drained by agricultural irrigation severely impacting its future.That's not limited to Texas. It's happening in all states that have dry areas or occasional droughts, especially if they have big cities or a lot of agriculture. And that means it's happening almost everywhere.
iris lilies
1-31-21, 2:22pm
We are moving from one major fresh water resource, the mighty Mississippi, to the other nearby one, the mighty Missouri river. I am within walking distance of each one.
These river towns are one thing I really like about my home state.
My native state, Iowa, is known for flat plains. yawn. Missouri is just more interesting in topography
I'm within a couple of blocks of Lake Washington, but if the last few weeks are any indication, our aquifers are filling up and the mountains are covered with snow, so we're all right for the duration.
When I travelled through Texas in my recent south-west tour, we were informed that the aquifer under Texas was being rapidly drained by agricultural irrigation severely impacting its future.
One word: permaculture. Of course, we would have to first shift farming practices from large monocultures to smaller polycultures, but permaculture principles would solve the problems of irrigation draining the aquifers.
GeorgeParker
1-31-21, 7:18pm
One word: permaculture. Of course, we would have to first shift farming practices from large monocultures to smaller polycultures, but permaculture principles would solve the problems of irrigation draining the aquifers.Permaculture has benefits in terms of reducing soil erosion, improving soil condition through natural/organic methods, and so on. But it doesn't automatically reduce water usage for the simple reason that plants need water to grow. Some of that water evaporates from the soil or from the plant itself. Also the part of the plant that is harvested contains water, so all the food you ship from your farm to the market is taking water that came out of your ground and sending it to some distant place.
As far as switching from monoculture to polyculture -- lots of luck! There are economies of scale that make such a switch impractical if you expect to feed all the people living in cities at an affordable price. Do you know how much a combine costs? Do you really think owning that big expensive piece of equipment would be practical for someone growing only a small plot of wheat instead of hundreds of acres? Or even a local group of farmers? And similar examples are abundant. Or did you intend to just eliminate from our diet everything that can't be grown and harvested economically using methods similar to the way it was done in the 1700's?
I'm a long-time tree-hugging Mother Earth fan, and I certainly don't want to be a downer, because any improvement that can be made anywhere, however small, is better than nothing. But monoculture, huge farms, and irrigation are here to stay. The real problem is everyone, city dwellers and farmers both, everyone is using too much water in wasteful ways. We need to use rain barrels to collect the rain that falls on our roofs and water our lawns with that instead of watering our grass with filtered chemically-sanitized drinking water. We need to use composting toilets instead of using 3-4 gallons of clean tap water to flush away a few ounces of human waste. Farms need to use ground-level drip irrigation whenever practical to reduce evaporation. And on and on and on, just like we've all been hearing about for the last 50 years.
Permaculture is good. Permaculture is valid. But it isn't the answer to our modern civilization using and wasting more water than natural water cycles can replenish. And as our planet gets warmer and the weather patterns shift, our water problems will surely get worse.
Permaculture is good. Permaculture is valid. But it isn't the answer to our modern civilization using and wasting more water than natural water cycles can replenish. And as our planet gets warmer and the weather patterns shift, our water problems will surely get worse.
When people (like my husband) say that to me, I say, you have to start somewhere. Light one little candle in the dark. The more people are educated about the downsides of industrial agriculture and the benefits of following nature's lead, the better off we will be. There are a lot of people getting involved in regenerative agriculture and maybe in a generation or two, we can meet a critical mass where it will make a difference.
I personally started following some of the practices you mentioned--I have a rain barrel, which I use to water my garden. I do not water my lawn, and I adhere to the 3" rule. I do not use a sprinkler, and this year I plan to install drip irrigation in my own garden. It's a tiny garden and anyone will say, one tiny garden in VT isn't going to solve the problem of aquifers drying up in TX, but we can raise the collective consciousness with individual effort.
I'm within a couple of blocks of Lake Washington, but if the last few weeks are any indication, our aquifers are filling up and the mountains are covered with snow, so we're all right for the duration.
Reservoirs here in the San Juans are full and then some, and monitored well levels around the county look super good. The only problem really is that the ground is so saturated with water that every solid wind is bringing down trees, and we're having rock and mudslides.
GeorgeParker
1-31-21, 8:30pm
When people (like my husband) say that to me, I say, you have to start somewhere. Light one little candle in the dark. The more people are educated about the downsides of industrial agriculture and the benefits of following nature's lead, the better off we will be. There are a lot of people getting involved in regenerative agriculture and maybe in a generation or two, we can meet a critical mass where it will make a difference.
I personally started following some of the practices you mentioned--I have a rain barrel, which I use to water my garden. I do not water my lawn, and I adhere to the 3" rule. I do not use a sprinkler, and this year I plan to install drip irrigation in my own garden. It's a tiny garden and anyone will say, one tiny garden in VT isn't going to solve the problem of aquifers drying up in TX, but we can raise the collective consciousness with individual effort.I agree with all of that, but your position is like me deciding to reduce my weekly driving by 50% and thinking I'm somehow setting a good example that will cause all the gas guzzlers to see the error of their ways and buy electric vehicles. It won't happen. And at this point all the various problems we face are so close to the critical tipping point, or past it, that small altruistic efforts won't make much of a dent.
If the younger generations got really fired up about eating a mostly vegetarian diet and growing some of their own food, even if it was only having a grape vine or an apple tree in their yard, and living a more sustainable life by owning less stuff and reusing/recycling more, then we might have a chance. But the older generations are mostly too set in their ways, and most people in the younger generations want to live the same lifestyle they see in 1960's movies and tv shows. On top of which all the people in developing nations look at our lifestyle and want to have at least as much as we have. I wish that were not so. And I'm doing what little I can to reduce my own environmental impact. But the light at the end of this long dark tunnel, is Darth Vader with a light saber.
You say "maybe in a generation or two, we can meet a critical mass where it will make a difference." But that was what The Mother Earth News was preaching in the 1970s and a lot of teens and twenty-somethings back then firmly believed we were going to change the world by nudging society just a little bit in the right direction and encouraging our children to push it a little bit farther. It's been 50 years, and look at where we are now.
You have now! I never had siblings and never cared if I had them or not. The other 'onlys' I grew up with mostly felt the same way. Sometimes siblings are good, sometimes siblings are a PITA. It depends on how lucky you are. But if you're an only child, your life is what it is -- you don't have to hope you'll get a good sibling instead of a PITA.
OK, I will revise my assertion as follows: Most of the only children I've met wished that they had siblings.
You say "maybe in a generation or two, we can meet a critical mass where it will make a difference." But that was what The Mother Earth News was preaching in the 1970s and a lot of teens and twenty-somethings back then firmly believed we were going to change the world by nudging society just a little bit in the right direction and encouraging our children to push it a little bit farther. It's been 50 years, and look at where we are now.
You are right about that, but we were the generation that sprung from the post-war industrial/consumerist boom. Rachel Carson sent out ominous messages as did Paul Erlich about what we were doing to the earth, and there were a lot of inspiring counterculturists to be sure. And yes, what has changed? Maybe a little. More technologies that enable us to drive cleaner and heat cleaner. The desire has pushed the culture. There are now Beyond Burgers and sustainable clothing companies and other eco-friendly products that are gaining mainstream appeal.
I remain cautiously optimistic that the younger generation "gets it" and also that they are truly less materialistic than we were. So far the signs point to yes in certain areas like home ownership. Also, maybe the political, scientific, and cultural leadership can help to light the way. And, just maybe, Mother Earth herself (the real one--not the magazine) will rear her head with the rage of a wounded animal. Maybe scaring us sh*tless will change things. Pain is a more potent driver than desire, or so they say. It might have to come to that.
Reservoirs here in the San Juans are full and then some, and monitored well levels around the county look super good. The only problem really is that the ground is so saturated with water that every solid wind is bringing down trees, and we're having rock and mudslides.
The last two years have been practically wind-free here, for some reason. I keep waiting for the hurricane...:0!
Teacher Terry
2-1-21, 9:53am
The younger people I know don’t collect anything so aren’t contributing to the problem in that way.
frugal-one
2-1-21, 10:30am
OK, I will revise my assertion as follows: Most of the only children I've met wished that they had siblings.
My DH and DS are happy to be only children.
ToomuchStuff
2-1-21, 10:40am
The younger people I know don’t collect anything so aren’t contributing to the problem in that way.
I would guess your off about that. I expect their collections are more digital, and data that will be mined as they get older.
ApatheticNoMore
2-1-21, 10:58am
Most of the only children I've met wished that they had siblings.
and maybe most people with siblings find them very mixed blessings if that. So it's really just a case of people wanting whatever they don't have, whatever that happens to be. Ask me when I end up financially supporting that sibling how thrilled to pieces I am to be so lucky to have a sibling (love them, well yes, can't help it, but that is neither here nor there).
And will they ever have a semi-normal life, well they could get a job (duh! of course they should), but in general no, too much psychological damage. Even I haven't really but it's a matter of degree and they are extreme. Sometimes I feel bad for contributing to their psychological problems, because I acted and was pretty crazy as a kid. So yea one can blame themselves for what they did before they even reached adolescence I suppose. And they were never even close enough in age to be a playmate, but a confident sometimes, someone else who knew what it was all like, once upon a time (only with only so much memory of it due to trauma etc.).
GeorgeParker
2-1-21, 11:42am
I remain cautiously optimistic that the younger generation "gets it" and also that they are truly less materialistic than we were. So far the signs point to yes in certain areas like home ownership. Also, maybe the political, scientific, and cultural leadership can help to light the way. And, just maybe, Mother Earth herself (the real one--not the magazine) will rear her head with the rage of a wounded animal. Maybe scaring us sh*tless will change things. Pain is a more potent driver than desire, or so they say. It might have to come to that.And in contrast to that, we have all the people who voted for Trump (he's the very opposite of what you and I hope the younger generations will be like as they mature) and the people who are flaunting their anti-environment opinions and attacking bicyclists and small-car drivers by "rolling coal". So I'm much more pessimistic about this issue than you are in spite of the progress we've made in the last 50 years.
Thoreau said "There are a thousand men hacking at the branches of evil for every one striking at the root." And today I would say there are a thousand people making minor feel-good changes in their life or merely paying lip service to social issues and environmental problems for every one person doing things and making changes that will truly improve society or the environment. But worse than that, for every person who is concerned about those problems, there is at least one other person who either denys the problem exists or doesn't care.
So we'll just have to disagree about this, and I hope you turn out to be right.
iris lilies
2-1-21, 11:43am
and maybe most people with siblings find them very mixed blessings if that. So it's really just a case of people wanting whatever they don't have, whatever that happens to be. Ask me when I end up financially supporting that sibling how thrilled to pieces I am to be so lucky to have a sibling (love them, well yes, can't help it, but that is neither here nor there).
And will they ever have a semi-normal life, well they could get a job (duh! of course they should), but in general no, too much psychological damage. Even I haven't really but it's a matter of degree and they are extreme. Sometimes I feel bad for contributing to their psychological problems, because I acted and was pretty crazy as a kid. So yea one can blame themselves for what they did before they even reached adolescence I suppose. And they were never even close enough in age to be a playmate, but a confident sometimes, someone else who knew what it was all like, once upon a time (only with only so much memory of it due to trauma etc.).
Do not support your sibling.
If your therapists have not guided you out of your feelings of responsibility for your childhood actions toward your sibling, they have been piss poor therapists. I’m beginning to think there’s more bad ones than good ones as I careen around forums.
And in contrast to that, we have all the people who voted for Trump (he's the very opposite of what you and I hope the younger generations will be like as they mature) and the people who are flaunting their anti-environment opinions and attacking bicyclists and small-car drivers by "rolling coal". So I'm much more pessimistic about this issue than you are in spite of the progress we've made in the last 50 years.
Thoreau said "There are a thousand men hacking at the branches of evil for every one striking at the root." And today I would say there are a thousand people making minor feel-good changes in their life or merely paying lip service to social issues and environmental problems for every one person doing things and making changes that will truly improve society or the environment. But worse than that, for every person who is concerned about those problems, there is at least one other person who either denys the problem exists or doesn't care.
So we'll just have to disagree about this, and I hope you turn out to be right.
I force myself to be hopeful when I start to lose hope, because once I lose hope, game over. Desmond Tutu: "Hope is being able to see that there is light despite all the darkness." So, I don't disagree with you, I am a glass-half-full type of person. I do see all those thousands thwarting the efforts of the few, but who could have predicted that British colonialism would fall at the hands of non-violent resisters? Or that we would be able to walk on the moon? We take it for granted now, but my great-aunt's father owned a livery stable and she saw transportation evolve form horse-and-buggy to automobile, to plane to space shuttle in under 70 years. Anything is possible.
Teacher Terry
2-1-21, 1:23pm
APN, IL is 100% correct!!
I force myself to be hopeful when I start to lose hope, because once I lose hope, game over. Desmond Tutu: "Hope is being able to see that there is light despite all the darkness." So, I don't disagree with you, I am a glass-half-full type of person. I do see all those thousands thwarting the efforts of the few, but who could have predicted that British colonialism would fall at the hands of non-violent resisters? Or that we would be able to walk on the moon? We take it for granted now, but my great-aunt's father owned a livery stable and she saw transportation evolve form horse-and-buggy to automobile, to plane to space shuttle in under 70 years. Anything is possible.
I agree, catherine. Even 1 person not buying a 24-pack of bottled water is a step in the right direction, etc.
As for siblings, even with all the ups-and-downs and growing pains between us, I am blessed to have my siblings in my life, and I realize how rare that can be. I'm very grateful.
Teacher Terry
2-2-21, 10:21am
My siblings didn’t lift a finger during my dad’s 14 year illness. We then had to leave the area for my career once I finished graduate school. They were then forced to help my mom as needed because she was a great mom to all of us. I flew out to help also. My sister said once she wished I still lived there because I would help more than my brother. What she meant is so I could do everything again. I was glad I had left.
That's not limited to Texas. It's happening in all states that have dry areas or occasional droughts, especially if they have big cities or a lot of agriculture. And that means it's happening almost everywhere.
In California’s Central Valley the aquifer depletion has gotten so bad that the farmers who can afford it are hiring oil drilling companies to drill new wells because they have to go insanely deep to actually reach water.
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