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Given the current flap over the guy who objected to Jill Biden using the “Doctor” honorific, I was curious about what the reasonable protocol should be. It seems sort of petty to me to care one way or another. On the one hand, I can understand taking pride in an earned doctorate. On the other, it smacks a little of that Seinfeld character who insisted on being called “Maestro”. Or using the title of your elected office long after leaving it. I think in some countries people continue using their military rank long after being discharged.
It can sometimes confuse people, as when Whoopi Goldberg opined that Dr Biden would make a great Surgeon General, apparently not realizing her degree was in education.
The PhDs I’m friendly with don’t seem to make that much of it off campus. Maybe it just comes down to personal preference.
catherine
12-14-20, 12:52pm
I know people who go both ways. You're right, it's personal preference. I think it's more widely used in academia, for sure--if you are a professor at a university, or have published.
But I think that an attractive blond sidekick to a Big Shot may feel compelled to call out her credential in order to gain credibility for her accomplishments gained in her own right.
I think the more important question is whether she can bake chocolate chip cookies.
Drat, I thought this thread was about the BBC's Doctor Who show and possibly how terrible it's become since they went all SJW, including plans to change the TARDIS from a police call box to something else so as not to offend anyone.
Drat, I thought this thread was about the BBC's Doctor Who show and possibly how terrible it's become since they went all SJW, including plans to change the TARDIS from a police call box to something else so as not to offend anyone.
I heard one suggestion that they change the title to “Dr. Woke”.
Drat, I thought this thread was about the BBC's Doctor Who show and possibly how terrible it's become since they went all SJW, including plans to change the TARDIS from a police call box to something else so as not to offend anyone.
I'd love to see the Doctor tooling around in a Pacific Rim-style Jaeger mecha!
Teacher Terry
12-14-20, 5:01pm
Jill Biden earned her doctorate.
At least she isn't claiming an undeserved "genius visa," like Melania did. Dr. Biden earned the title.
Jill Biden earned her doctorate.
People sometimes get confused by the meaning of Doctorate. Whoopi Goldberg thinks she'd make a good Surgeon General.
I think the more important question is whether she can bake chocolate chip cookies.
I hope those days are behind us. Is someone going to ask the 2nd Gentleman for his recipe, I wonder...
I wonder if the author of the editorial that promoted this thread thinks it was also wrong to address dr Henry Kissinger as dr. Maybe we should be referring to him as kiddo Kissinger?
I'm also curious why a graduate of a vocational school with an M.D. somehow is seen to have more stature than someone with a real doctorate, that is to say, a research Ph.D.?
So the title is earned/conferred, but it's considered unseemly to actually use it?
Human beings are endlessly perplexing.
I'm also curious why a graduate of a vocational school with an M.D. somehow is seen to have more stature than someone with a real doctorate, that is to say, a research Ph.D.?
As long as they get my coffee order right, I really don’t care what they want to call themselves.
So the title is earned/conferred, but it's considered unseemly to actually use it?
Phrases like "President-elect"?
frugal-one
12-14-20, 9:13pm
Usually, people who make a big deal out of such things are just jealous. I think she is a much better person than the naked centerfold predecessor.
It’s obviously sexist. Dr. Kissinger example will suffice.
My humble theory is that it is only those people who feel small themselves that have to trample on others. Why don't those people who demean others see that they are actually self-witnessing their own smallness?
ToomuchStuff
12-15-20, 6:37am
Drat, I thought this thread was about the BBC's Doctor Who show and possibly how terrible it's become since they went all SJW, including plans to change the TARDIS from a police call box to something else so as not to offend anyone.
Long time Whovian, that hasn't seen the last season, and not sure I want to, here.
JaneV2.0
12-15-20, 11:42am
Dr. Biden has worked in education for decades, where apparently it's common to use the title.
My humble theory is that it is only those people who feel small themselves that have to trample on others. Why don't those people who demean others see that they are actually self-witnessing their own smallness?
I think we all differ in the ways we grant or demand status recognition, often to hilariously pretentious extremes. Doctorates covers a pretty broad field of specialties. Some of us might, for purely subjective reasons, respect some more than others. It might take six or seven years to become a PhD in Victorian Literature or a finish carpenter. Is one achievement more admirable than the other? Is an Emmy more prestigious than a Distinguished Flying Cross? An EdD more impressive than a DD-214 or a CDL or a Black Belt?
We seem to be overproducing doctorates in the humanities right now. Should that matter in the degree of prestige they command? Are there perhaps better indicators of employability than a BA?
I think we should honor the people who advance the boundaries of human knowledge, but have no problem mocking pretentiousness where it arises; especially in the more desperately status-seeking fields of politics, media and academics.
catherine
12-15-20, 3:33pm
Yes, do credentials really matter? You are right, they don't necessarily prove worth or value in the marketplace, but the fact that Epstein singled out Dr. Jill Biden in demeaning the honorific speaks volumes about the lingering attitudes about women's worth. To jp's point, maybe her credentials wouldn't be as annoying to Epstein if she were Jill Biden, K.P. It seems women persist in being demeaned for having the same qualities and attributes men are respected for. That's the crux of that op ed piece.
I wonder why this is such a hot button thing now. Lynne Cheney had a PhD, and I don’t remember her or anyone else making an issue of it: either by demeaning the honorific or insisting on it’s use.
Epstein seemed kind of churlish about it, in the whole “degree for vice principals” vein, but it also strikes me as odd to demand people use it. I’m inclined to address people however they like, even if it’s just extending courtesy to vanity. It doesn’t cost anything, and it’s not the sort of hill a reasons person would want to die on.
I have to wonder why this is a hot button for the editorialist as well. It really seems like a solution in search of a problem. I have/had various assorted people in my life with doctoral degrees. Some chose to use the title Dr. and some didn't. I'd never really thought much about it until this week and like Ldahl have always just addressed people however they preferred. Thinking back, one of the well loved professors when I was in college, and the head of my department, Alfred Reed, had only an honorary doctorate but everyone called him Dr. Reed because that was what he wanted and we all respected him and his accomplishments enough to do so. He didn't complete (or even attempt to do so as far as I know) whatever requirements some university may have asked in order to bestow a doctorate but a lifetime of significant musical achievement counted enough for us. And as an aside he was also just a really charming, delightful person. His wikipedia page doesn't come close to doing justice to all that he did for his niche in the world of music. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Reed
I worked with a fair amount of scientists with Doctorates during my time in pharma. None that I recall used the Dr. honorific although all did sign their emails with Name, PhD.
On the other hand, Sheldon Cooper insisted on using the Dr. title, but he was a bit weird.
I worked with a fair amount of scientists with Doctorates during my time in pharma. None that I recall used the Dr. honorific although all did sign their emails with Name, PhD.
On the other hand, Sheldon Cooper insisted on using the Dr. title, but he was a bit weird.
I’m so glad you posted this. You never fail to impress me with your consistency.
I’m so glad you posted this. You never fail to impress me with your consistency.
"I have no consistency, except in politics, and that probably arises from my indifference to the subject altogether." ~ Lord Byron
I worked with a fair amount of scientists with Doctorates during my time in pharma. None that I recall used the Dr. honorific although all did sign their emails with Name, PhD. .
Peers do not often need to use titles as they are simply acknowledged by those who understand the efforts to achieve them. They also would not likely refer to each as "kiddo" or attempt to demean the indisputable fact of an earned title and expertise actively in use. Leave that to the small-minded.
I will make two more points and then step out of this thread.
Dr Biden will be very much aware of the intense need for greater basic and advanced education of women around the world. As she travels on behalf of the US as First Lady, by insisting on acknowledgment of her expertise, she will provide leadership of the possibilities available to women in the US and hopefully increase opportunities for contact with and advancement for educational leaders around the world.
Also, how easy it is to target and attempt to demean the very capable and successful spouse of someone who wins! If your family member is targeted and demeaned because of your success, what would you think then?
If your family member is targeted and demeaned because of your success, what would you think then?
I would think that the person engaged in this sort of attack must not have any substantial arguments to present.
Also, how easy it is to target and attempt to demean the very capable and successful spouse of someone who wins! If your family member is targeted and demeaned because of your success, what would you think then?
Luckily, I haven't run into that problem. Maybe we should ask Melania Trump how it feels to be demeaned through her associations.
Luckily, I haven't run into that problem. Maybe we should ask Melania Trump how it feels to be demeaned through her associations.
I did notice quite a few progressives happily slut-shaming Melania. And endlessly chattering about her wardrobe.
I did notice quite a few progressives happily slut-shaming Melania. And endlessly chattering about her wardrobe.
It comes down to situation ethics. The difference between “demeaning” and “calling out” is target specific. Call it the Lewinsky corollary to the golden rule.
It begs the question, however, of why anyone should care about who the FLOTUS is or what she thinks or says about anything. At least by virtue of being the FLOTUS. Our forbears went to a great deal of trouble to end the royalty nonsense here.
rosarugosa
12-16-20, 7:52pm
I'm trying to live up to my own standards where Melania is concerned. For example, making fun of her accent is no more excusable than making fun of Biden's stutter. And I have to admit that her candid remarks about Christmas decorations for the White House rather warmed my heart; it was the first time I felt I could really relate to her.
catherine
12-16-20, 8:50pm
It begs the question, however, of why anyone should care about who the FLOTUS is or what she thinks or says about anything. At least by virtue of being the FLOTUS. Our forbears went to a great deal of trouble to end the royalty nonsense here.
I think it's human nature. People love "royalty" in all its various forms--either traditional royalty i.e. Queen Elizabeth & all the princes and princesses or celebrity royalty. Plus, the FLOTUS does wield influence. Plus there have been many amazing women behind the presidents: Abigail Adams and Eleanor Roosevelt to name two of my favorites. Why not recognize them?
As for Melania, I have nothing against her. She found herself in this position and I'm pretty sure the last 4 years have been a nightmare for her.
"First Ladies" are generally boring to me, but I admit Melania is an easy target. I won't miss her in the slightest.
"First Ladies" are generally boring to me, ...
I find the whole concept troubling on so many levels.
I did notice quite a few progressives happily slut-shaming Melania. And endlessly chattering about her wardrobe.
We’re these the same people who were all bent out of shape when Michelle Obama went out in public with naked arms? Oh the horror.
We’re these the same people who were all bent out of shape when Michelle Obama went out in public with naked arms? Oh the horror.
I think it was "the other side" that was hassling Michelle.
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