A More Simple, Plainer America? [Archive]

frugal-one

12-26-20, 4:04pm

I picked up a copy of the WSJ today at work (we sell it at the grocery store) and scanned quickly and I think it was in Peggy Noonan's column. Yes, I just checked it was - in her column regarding looking back at 2020 - Ms. Noonan predicts America will emerge from this pandemic as a simpler, plainer society.

Now what do you think, likely or not? I'm kind of glad to post this ? as it is not political, nor does it involve my zip code, and it is ln line with the original intention of this board. Not only all of the above, but I personally find this question and possible discussion over it interesting. Rob

What did she say that means?

Alan

12-26-20, 4:09pm

What did she say that means?She didn't exactly say that, she did a little review of editorials over the course of the pandemic and mentioned America becoming a simpler country as the tone in May. You can read the article here: Peggy Noonan – Columns, pieces and posts (http://peggynoonan.com/)

catherine

12-26-20, 4:35pm

Yes, she didn't state what that meant at all. People try to find the silver lining by grabbing onto romantic cliches about simple living, but I hate to say that I'm cynical. It's not like people who emerged from The Great Depression decided that darning socks and getting 4 dinners out of one chicken was far superior to steak every Saturday.

And, yes, what would make this country simpler and plainer?? Fewer ads on TV? Fewer people working long hours? A 50s tableau of Dad coming home from work to wafts of warmth circling above a home-made casserole, with smiling, well-dressed kids saying grace?

We on this board who hold certain values dear--values around thrift, nature, gratitude, mindful spending and mindful living--are a rare breed and I believe will always be so. But we can always hope that some out there will see the light at the end of this.

Yppej

12-26-20, 4:45pm

The only concrete example she gave of simplicity was the end of fashion as we knew it.

SteveinMN

12-26-20, 5:06pm

Follow the money. There's so much money in fashion and marketing (some overlap there, too) and in other endeavors that I think it's unlikely people will shift quickly to an end to fashion or smaller homes (in rural areas) and so on. Many people can be manipulated to buy buy buy. I don't see that changing. There may be some areas that shift, like increased grocery ordering online or people being more comfortable with Teams or Zoom meetings rather than have ten people drive to a central location to meet. But this is a mighty big ship to turn. And we likely won't notice the tipping points that have occurred during the pandemic until many years down the road ("Can you believe people actually used to fly hundreds of miles to go to a half-day business meeting?")

catherine

12-26-20, 5:12pm

And we likely won't notice the tipping points that have occurred during the pandemic until many years down the road ("Can you believe people actually used to fly hundreds of miles to go to a half-day business meeting?")

haha! BTDT. One example: Newark to Seattle for a two-hour capabilities presentation. We slept on the plane. I thought it was stupid then and I'd think it's even more stupid now. And we didn't even get the work.

JaneV2.0

12-26-20, 5:35pm

My favorite stupid meeting involved a flight from Portland to San Francisco for a one hour meeting that could easily have been accomplished with a handout. But I liked being in SF, and the next day we were on to Los Angeles. Most meetings are dumb; out of town meetings more so, usually.

gimmethesimplelife

12-26-20, 6:19pm

To those above posting re business travel: Two of the guys I meet up with quasi regularly from my high school days used to travel often for business. They miss the game of accruing and maximizing points and miles on these trips. There is a whole subset of folks apparently who take this extremely seriously and work the situation for max freebies, cash, and prizes.

I will say one thing. Gotta fess up here. When I flew to Austria with my Mom back in 2015 - I went to the British Airways Business Lounge that once existed at the Phoenix Airport. I was going to see what it cost to get in given that we had steerage class tickets. They let us in for free!!! Seriously. I very much enjoyed it and can understand why this is a sought after perk.

Upscale appetizers and BOMBAY SAPPHIRE for g and t's instead of a cheap well gin? I'd be on it too if I could get it. Rob

frugal-one

12-26-20, 6:44pm

She didn't exactly say that, she did a little review of editorials over the course of the pandemic and mentioned America becoming a simpler country as the tone in May. You can read the article here: Peggy Noonan – Columns, pieces and posts (http://peggynoonan.com/)

Thanks for posting Alan. A fluff piece IMO.

ApatheticNoMore

12-26-20, 8:42pm

I wish it were so, unfortunately I don't really believe it. So many people would regret the details? Not on any level that I see happening I wouldn't. If all modern medical care went away or something? Well duh, sure I would in that case, if we are talking pure return to hunter-gatherism, but really who sees that happening? But square footage, I don't have a ton of square footage. Experiences? They are overwhelmingly local. I would like group activities to come back someday and they will post covid.

Tradd

12-26-20, 11:02pm

I hope the trend of people getting outside more continues next spring.

I hope more divers continue to dive locally/regionally and realize they don't have to go overseas for diving.

happystuff

12-27-20, 11:55am

I hope the trend of people getting outside more continues next spring.

I agree. I think just getting people outside, being in nature, will be a really good start for positive changes.

KayLR

12-28-20, 1:16pm

The end of fashion is already here---haven't you noticed bell bottom and high-waisted jeans are back?

rosarugosa

12-28-20, 2:19pm

Between retirement and then Covid social restrictions, I've been kind of hoping that I'll never have to dress up again.

ewomack

12-29-20, 10:45pm

I'll always remember years ago when gasoline prices plummeted and I saw lots of SUVs, Hummers and very large vehicles on the road. Then gas prices increased exponentially and I saw almost no such large vehicles zooming around. But when the "shale revolution" hit and gas prices went down yet again, I once more saw SUVs, Hummers and very large vehicles on the road. A friend of mine who owned an SUV told me that he would often spend over $100 filling it up and during one of these turns he swore to me "I'm going to sell this thing and never go back! It's wasteful and expensive!" But when gas prices went down again, he bought another gas guzzling SUV. Many people seem very reactive and don't think past the current situation. I'm not sure how much people engage in long term thinking, but I can't say that I see a lot of it in the US. So this doesn't give me much hope for any mass "simple living" epidemic happening if/when the pandemic ceases. I'm actually expecting a Dionysian outpouring of people "making up" for lost days. Of course, some people haven't stopped partying through the entire thing.

jp1

12-30-20, 12:01am

Ewomack, I think you are probably right. If covid had dragged on for as long as the Great Depression we might see long term behavior changes. But it looks like that’s not going to be the case. Assuming the vaccines work as well as expected and case numbers dwindle, most people will go back to their old normal. In all honesty I will. I miss restaurant meals. I miss traveling for work. I miss hanging out with friends for happy hour. As soon as I can do those things without fear of death for myself or other people I interact with I will.

GeorgeParker

1-9-21, 12:58am

So this doesn't give me much hope for any mass "simple living" epidemic happening if/when the pandemic ceases. I'm actually expecting a Dionysian outpouring of people "making up" for lost days.
I totally agree. After a few months of isolation with little or no access to movies, sports events, or restaurants, and greatly curtailed shopping (except the online kind) most people will go totally crazy as soon as those things become available again. Especially if those months of enforced non-spending resulted in them saving a lot of money, which they will now feel entitled to spend quickly on whatever strikes their fancy.

Any increased frugality will probably be the result of people who lost most of their income during the pandemic struggling to get back to their former financial status or scared sh*tless that another financial crisis will hit them.

Two other things that will contribute to simplicity but maybe not frugality are: (1) The aging of Boomers and Generation Jones, because people near retirement age tend to buy less stuff and to start downsizing their homes and possessions. (2) The kids who are now 20-30yo will come into their prime earning years, and it's well known that they prefer renting vs owning a house and having experiences vs buying things.

rosarugosa

1-9-21, 7:14am

I totally agree. After a few months of isolation with little or no access to movies, sports events, or restaurants, and greatly curtailed shopping (except the online kind) most people will go totally crazy as soon as those things become available again. Especially if those months of enforced non-spending resulted in them saving a lot of money, which they will now feel entitled to spend quickly on whatever strikes their fancy.

Any increased frugality will probably be the result of people who lost most of their income during the pandemic struggling to get back to their former financial status or scared sh*tless that another financial crisis will hit them.

Two other things that will contribute to simplicity but maybe not frugality are: (1) The aging of Boomers and Generation Jones, because people near retirement age tend to buy less stuff and to start downsizing their homes and possessions. (2) The kids who are now 20-30yo will come into their prime earning years, and it's well known that they prefer renting vs owning a house and having experiences vs buying things.

Interesting, GeorgeParker. I had never heard of Generation Jones, to which I apparently belong. I just had to Google it. Thanks for the insight!

GeorgeParker

1-10-21, 12:58am

Interesting, GeorgeParker. I had never heard of Generation Jones, to which I apparently belong. I just had to Google it. Thanks for the insight!
So, do you agree with the characterization that Generation Jones always either envied or resented the true Boomers because us Boomers were always the big kids and the older siblings who got everything first and soaked up all the resources, attention, jobs, etc while the Jones' were constantly being told to "Wait until you're older", or "do what your big brother/sister tells you", or "wait until you have more experience", or "come back in a few years"?

rosarugosa

1-10-21, 7:38am

So, do you agree with the characterization that Generation Jones always either envied or resented the true Boomers because us Boomers were always the big kids and the older siblings who got everything first and soaked up all the resources, attention, jobs, etc while the Jones' were constantly being told to "Wait until you're older", or "do what your big brother/sister tells you", or "wait until you have more experience", or "come back in a few years"?

No, not really since I don't have any older siblings.
I do feel like some of this generational stuff is similar to astrology in its validity and usefulness. When I was working, I attended talks and read a lot about the generations in the workplace. I worked in a department of mostly millennials, and my team was unique in that I had boomers, gen Xers, millennials and gen Zers. Sure, there were some similarities of older and younger employees, but people can't be categorized all that neatly. I remember reading something about Boomers being characterized by an interest in financial preparedness for retirement, and I thought that was pretty silly, because the same will be true of any generation as it approaches retirement age.

Yppej

1-10-21, 8:37am

I was in a bust year. The class ahead of me was big and a lot of their parents spaced their children two years apart. The older class would be rough and wear out things like desks. The worst ones would be set aside and because my class was small we would get by, but then there would not be enough desks or textbooks or whatever for the class after us and they would get all new. I was a little resentful in school.

GeorgeParker

1-10-21, 8:50am

I do feel like some of this generational stuff is similar to astrology in its validity and usefulness....Sure, there were some similarities of older and younger employees, but people can't be categorized all that neatly.
True enough. I've always found it interesting (and somewhat baffling) that so many of the idealistic teenagers of the late 60s and 20-somethings of the early 70s who were convinced we could change the world by pushing all the old politicians out of power or by turning on, tuning in, and dropping out of the rat race, turned into yuppies and entrepreneurs in the late 70s and early 80s. Pragmatism dawning on them, I suppose. And to some extent that's been true of every generation. So anything said about any generation has to be couched in terms of broad general tendencies, not specific traits.

Even so, each generation is shaped by either conforming to or rebelling against the beliefs and psychology of the people born 10-20 years earlier, because those people are by definition "the establishment" and the status quo. So the pendulum slowly swings back and forth.

razz

1-10-21, 9:25am

One judges according to what one learns, experiences or sees around them. That truth is eternal. Some reach beyond that very basic framework and look to the past and some consider the options of the future. Some authors have been amazing in seeing future possibilities. Again this is how life has been and I expect will continue to be. People in the 1800's had struggles but created short-lived lives in most cases. People in the 1900's have increased positive lives according to: https://www.samuelthomasdavies.com/book-summaries/business/factfulness/
Life goes on with its ups and downs through generations, each with unique aspects.

GeorgeParker

1-11-21, 12:03am

according to: https://www.samuelthomasdavies.com/book-summaries/business/factfulness/

That editorial takes the position that things aren't as bad as we think they are, but it reaches that conclusion by looking at only one side of the evidence. For example:

More and more countries are moving from "undeveloped" to "developing" or "developed" and the percentage of the world's population that is officially poor is shrinking, so we should all rejoice at this great progress.

<rant mode on>
But more developed or developing countries and fewer poor people living in survival mode means more consumption, which means more production to meet the increased demand for products, which means more pollution and more garbage to dispose of and more demand for energy to power the factories and to power the improved lifestyle in those newly developed countries, which means more global warming at a time when we desperately need to reduce global warming; not to mention the fact that worldwide population growth is continuing and will exacerbate this effect with the result that sometime within the next 20 years, climate change will cause civilization as we know it to collapse and 80% of the human race will be wiped out by pandemics, starvation, tribal wars, or some combination of those factors. A Mad Max world is on our doorsteps and the very "progress" we're celebrating will be the thing that causes it to happen.

The only way to avoid the approaching Mad Max world is for the Haves to voluntarily reduce their consumption and simplify their lifestyle and for strong nations to pour resources into clean energy and environmentally friendly technologies, and for the developed nations to convince the developing nations to follow an environmentally friendly path instead of making all the same industrial and lifestyle mistakes that the developed nations made. And what are the chances of any of that actually happening????

We're all doomed!!! So give up.
<rant mode off>

Not so pretty when you look at it from that viewpoint, is it. But IMHO the odds of us somehow muddling through as a species are at best 40% based on how few people are truly simplifying and working to improve the environment vs how many people are focused on making more money and having a "better" (meaning higher consumption) lifestyle regardless of what effect their lifestyle has on the Have-Nots or the environment.

invisibleflash

1-18-21, 1:39pm

invisibleflash

1-18-21, 2:41pm

True enough. I've always found it interesting (and somewhat baffling) that so many of the idealistic teenagers of the late 60s and 20-somethings of the early 70s who were convinced we could change the world by pushing all the old politicians out of power or by turning on, tuning in, and dropping out of the rat race, turned into yuppies and entrepreneurs in the late 70s and early 80s. Pragmatism dawning on them, I suppose. And to some extent that's been true of every generation. So anything said about any generation has to be couched in terms of broad general tendencies, not specific traits.

Even so, each generation is shaped by either conforming to or rebelling against the beliefs and psychology of the people born 10-20 years earlier, because those people are by definition "the establishment" and the status quo. So the pendulum slowly swings back and forth.

Well, sometimes it does not swing back. Sometimes a country stops being recognizable to what it was. There is no guarantee a country lasts forever. We are on that journey now with the dems destruction of the 1A. No more freedom of speech or thought in the USA. Dems will work tirelessly to destroy any person, company, city or state that does not toe their party line.

But none of these discussions will save you or America. The only thing that can save a chunk of America as founded is if America is broken into two and let the dems destroy their half.

Just like generations change, someone brought up the case that politics goes back and forth from dem to rep control. OK, even if so, which is unlikely now that the dems have the formula for perpetual control, the dems destroy so much of America when they have control and it never comes back. And the shitty reps we have in DC can't do anything when they do have control.

The reps have to come to grips they are no match for the dems. They can't beat them. (politically) History tells us that. Look at what we got from Trump and 2 years of a rep controlled Senate and Congress. Compare that to 2021 with the dems hitting the ground running.

OK, if it was a shooting war, then it would be different. The dems have proven to be cowards and shrink from hard-core battle. But that does not do us any good. If we could secede, a group of states that is, then you would have a chance. Now, succession would still not be a perfect answer, with an enemy at your borders wishing to reconquer or destroy the states that do not want to be under their thumb. But it would be better than being disarmed and losing all of America as seems to be what is in store for us.

I mean, the dems do look at the reps as bad people, their enemy and would like us all destroyed. We have seen their comments for some time now attesting to that. In contrast, the reps would just like to be left alone to live their lives...under the Constitution. Dems can go their way and do their thing...in their states. But they just won't accept it. The dems will bring the fight to you and work to destroy you if you don't accept their doctrine. Once it became the norm in the USA to throw out the 1A, all was lost. ANYONE that is offended by your worldview has the right to destroy you, as long as it meshes with the dems dogma.

catherine

1-18-21, 3:19pm

The only way to avoid the approaching Mad Max world is for the Haves to voluntarily reduce their consumption and simplify their lifestyle and for strong nations to pour resources into clean energy and environmentally friendly technologies, and for the developed nations to convince the developing nations to follow an environmentally friendly path instead of making all the same industrial and lifestyle mistakes that the developed nations made. And what are the chances of any of that actually happening????

I agree. I read a really good book about consumption* in the 20th century, and why it blew up like it did. The conclusions were inconclusive but discouraging if you hope for the voluntary retreat on consumption levels. We are just brainwashed as a culture by the "Hidden Persuaders". I watch HGTV and every episode involves tearing out what I consider in most cases to be perfectly good kitchens and replaced with the au courant cabinet/counter/appliance package du jour. There is actually a syndrome called the HGTV effect, where everyday buyers parrot the wishlist of the buyers on these TV shows, or strive for copycat living rooms a la Joanna Gaines.

Obviously the problem goes far beyond HGTV into things like how love of consumerism has resulted in products that don't degrade, deforestation, monoculture farming, reduced biodiversity, etc. But it's all on the same track.

*An All-Consuming Century: Why Commercialism Won in Modern America by Gary Cross (https://www.amazon.com/All-Consuming-Century-Commercialism-Modern-America/dp/0231113137)

frugal-one

1-18-21, 3:49pm

Well, sometimes it does not swing back. Sometimes a country stops being recognizable to what it was. There is no guarantee a country lasts forever. We are on that journey now with the dems destruction of the 1A. No more freedom of speech or thought in the USA. Dems will work tirelessly to destroy any person, company, city or state that does not toe their party line.

But none of these discussions will save you or America. The only thing that can save a chunk of America as founded is if America is broken into two and let the dems destroy their half.

Just like generations change, someone brought up the case that politics goes back and forth from dem to rep control. OK, even if so, which is unlikely now that the dems have the formula for perpetual control, the dems destroy so much of America when they have control and it never comes back. And the shitty reps we have in DC can't do anything when they do have control.

The reps have to come to grips they are no match for the dems. They can't beat them. (politically) History tells us that. Look at what we got from Trump and 2 years of a rep controlled Senate and Congress. Compare that to 2021 with the dems hitting the ground running.

OK, if it was a shooting war, then it would be different. The dems have proven to be cowards and shrink from hard-core battle. But that does not do us any good. If we could secede, a group of states that is, then you would have a chance. Now, succession would still not be a perfect answer, with an enemy at your borders wishing to reconquer or destroy the states that do not want to be under their thumb. But it would be better than being disarmed and losing all of America as seems to be what is in store for us.

I mean, the dems do look at the reps as bad people, their enemy and would like us all destroyed. We have seen their comments for some time now attesting to that. In contrast, the reps would just like to be left alone to live their lives...under the Constitution. Dems can go their way and do their thing...in their states. But they just won't accept it. The dems will bring the fight to you and work to destroy you if you don't accept their doctrine. Once it became the norm in the USA to throw out the 1A, all was lost. ANYONE that is offended by your worldview has the right to destroy you, as long as it meshes with the dems dogma.

Deleted my original post. These types are best ignored.

Yppej

1-18-21, 6:12pm

OP...dunno.

Maybe simpler cause they can't afford hardly living. If Biden gets his wish and brings in 20 million illegals, then they can bring in 40 - 60 million more from chain migration. More people scrambling for a piece of the American dream.

Chain migration like when Melania Trump brought her parents over to the US? This was after she came here and illegally worked as a nude model.

HappyHiker

1-18-21, 9:47pm

Gosh, I'm a dem and I don't want to destroy anyone no matter their political persuasion. I'm all about rainbows and unicorns and peace and harmony.

jp1

1-19-21, 12:36am

Invisible, you forgot to mention the republic party’s absurd belief that they are all about fiscal responsibility in your world is upside down perspective.

GeorgeParker

1-19-21, 3:01am

Well, sometimes it does not swing back.{followed by a bunch of right wing exaggerations and stereotypes}

Put it in the political forum where it belongs. I will not reply to you here or anywhere else because imo doing so would be utterly pointless.

GeorgeParker

1-19-21, 3:35am

I watch HGTV and every episode involves tearing out what I consider in most cases to be perfectly good kitchens and replaced with the au courant cabinet/counter/appliance package du jour. There is actually a syndrome called the HGTV effect, where everyday buyers parrot the wishlist of the buyers on these TV shows, or strive for copycat living rooms a la Joanna Gaines.

Obviously the problem goes far beyond HGTV into things like how love of consumerism has resulted in products that don't degrade, deforestation, monoculture farming, reduced biodiversity, etc. But it's all on the same track.
Yes. Increasingly house flippers are mainly doing gut-and-rebuild where nothing is left of the original house except the exterior and studs. In many cases it makes sense to remove obsolete kitchen appliances and replace them with new ones or to take out existing walls to create a better floor plan, but tearing everything down to the bare studs is seldom the best option, and ripping out perfectly good kitchen cabinets and replacing them with new ones is a prime example of wasteful updating with little value.

Another example is flippers who buy a house with nice wood floors and cover them with cheap wall-to-wall carpet that looks ok now but will look awful in 5 years. It would be much better to give the floors a good coat of wax and let the home buyer decide what, if anything, they want to use as carpet.

It's also worth remembering that all those HGTV shows are re-doing houses on a discounted wholesale basis. The contractors who work for them give them a discount as steady reliable customers, whereas you or I would pay full price for our one-off job. The appliances and materials they feature in their remodeling projects are often bought at the wholesale price or less in exchange for the publicity value of being featured in a popular remodeling show. And so on.

This is how it looks in the real world: https://getpocket.com/explore/item/dismantling-my-dreams-one-brick-at-a-time

GeorgeParker

1-19-21, 3:37am

Deleted my original post. These types are best ignored.

Amen. I only replied because I was the one being directly quoted.

GeorgeParker

1-19-21, 4:05am

That editorial takes the position that things aren't as bad as we think they are, but it reaches that conclusion by looking at only one side of the evidence. For example: ....... We're all doomed!!! So give up.

For anyone who missed it: In post #27 of this thread I was playing devil's advocate. Yes, I really am that cynical about the future, but there are still some slim reasons to hope things will get better and we'll somehow muddle along as a species for a few more centuries. I just wouldn't bet on it unless all the corporations and powers that be suddenly realize saving the planet is a better investment than maximizing this year's profit margin.

iris lilies

1-19-21, 9:15am

For anyone who missed it: In post #27 of this thread I was playing devil's advocate. Yes, I really am that cynical about the future, but there are still some slim reasons to hope things will get better and we'll somehow muddle along as a species for a few more centuries. I just wouldn't bet on it unless all the corporations and powers that be suddenly realize saving the planet is a better investment than maximizing this year's profit margin.

Here’s the thing about an optimistic outlook: our time is over, the time of us oldsters. I think we are handing the youngsters a world that is not so great. But they will take it and run because they have the optimism of youth.

JaneV2.0

1-19-21, 10:21am

Here’s the thing about an optimistic outlook: our time is over, the time of us oldsters. I think we are handing the youngsters a world that is not so great. But they will take it and run because they have the optimism of youth.

That's my philosophy and hope.

iris lilies

1-19-21, 10:46am

That's my philosophy and hope.yes, I hear Jane in my head with responses to pessimistic outlooks. George Parker, this doesn’t mean that I’m especially optimistic about the state of the world myself because I’m not. But regardless of my own view and attitude, the world is going to go on the way it goes on. And it will go on.

catherine

1-19-21, 11:27am

This is how it looks in the real world: https://getpocket.com/explore/item/dismantling-my-dreams-one-brick-at-a-time

That is hilarious!! I'm sure it wasn't funny to the flippers, but so refreshing to get insight on the real deal.

Because it takes me three years to decide on which shade of white I want to paint my walls, flipping houses would probably not be a good business move for me. Plus I really hate throwing good things out, often channeling my dear Scottish mother-in-law, when she would often say "There's nothin' wrang wi' it."

SteveinMN

1-19-21, 11:40am

Another example is flippers who buy a house with nice wood floors and cover them with cheap wall-to-wall carpet that looks ok now but will look awful in 5 years. It would be much better to give the floors a good coat of wax and let the home buyer decide what, if anything, they want to use as carpet.
Ah, but redoing the floors costs twice as much as putting in cheap carpet, so cheap carpet it is!

From time to time I check out the local real estate listings because I like to keep tabs on the market. It is so easy to pick out the flips. You'd think they would have caught on to avoiding the same old same old by now. But the segment of the market most flippers work in is so hot right now that people buy the flip and either live with the cheap stuff a few years until it breaks or just consider replacing it another expense of buying the house (which goes right back to the unsustainability of ripping out functional stuff and replacing it with more stuff).

iris lilies

1-19-21, 11:43am

I have the luxury of being able to choose expensive materials. I think expensive materials in neutral colors age better than cheap trends of the moment. But in the end, I gave flippers no respect at all for respecting expensive materials. They will pull out granite to replace it with quartz. They will pull out carefully sourced and laid pine for godawful greige plastic plank. And etc.

A pox on them.

iris lilies

1-19-21, 11:46am

Ah, but redoing the floors costs twice as much as putting in cheap carpet, so cheap carpet it is!

From time to time I check out the local real estate listings because I like to keep tabs on the market. It is so easy to pick out the flips. You'd think they would have caught on to avoiding the same old same old by now. But the segment of the market most flippers work in is so hot right now that people buy the flip and either live with the cheap stuff a few years until it breaks or just consider replacing it another expense of buying the house (which goes right back to the unsustainability of ripping out functional stuff and replacing it with more stuff).

Can you believe the unimaginative materials out there? Everyone is doing gray plank type flooring. Everyone is doing white shaker cabinets. I’m so sick of it. And under normal circumstances I really like white cabinets, and I sort of like shaker style. But God I’m sick of it.

GeorgeParker

1-19-21, 11:54am

Can you believe the unimaginative materials out there? Everyone is doing...
If you want a good laugh, go to the library and look at some of the magazines from the 1950s that feature stylish modern houses. By our standards some of the colors and color combinations are horrible, especially in the kitchens.

catherine

1-19-21, 11:59am

If you want a good laugh, go to the library and look at some of the magazines from the 1950s that feature stylish modern houses. By our standards some of the colors and color combinations are horrible, especially in the kitchens.

I have seen "my" house (meaning pictures that look eerily similar to my house) on those Buzzfeed slideshows making fun of ugly decorating trends. Oh, well. Everything old is new again--wait a while and it will all be back in style.

SteveinMN

1-19-21, 12:08pm

Oh, well. Everything old is new again--wait a while and it will all be back in style.
Still waiting for the olive green shag carpet in our"pantry" (left there by us on purpose) to come back into style. Not holding my breath. :~) Still waiting for lemon yellow steel siding to make it around again, too.

Those are two reasons I don't feel badly about undoing 1970s aspects of our rambler (born 1974). I notice that someone down the street from us in the same model house has painted their yellow/beige/green/chalky blue steel siding (don't remember which color it was) a much darker blue. Looks really nice! But as much as the yellow color of our house was a significant demerit in the purchase decision, I'm not sure I want to get on the paint-the-house wagon. I certainly have zero interest in replacing the existing siding with Hardiplank or such; it still works and if it were a certain different color I'd love it.

SteveinMN

1-19-21, 12:13pm

Can you believe the unimaginative materials out there? Everyone is doing gray plank type flooring. Everyone is doing white shaker cabinets. I’m so sick of it. And under normal circumstances I really like white cabinets, and I sort of like shaker style. But God I’m sick of it.
They all must be getting their info from the same place. I don't know if it's HGTV or house magazines or real estate agents, but there's almost a formula to it and people just follow it to death. Shiplap (no offense; it fits some places but not every place); stainless steel appliances (despite the numerous comments I hear from owners about how hard it is to keep free of fingerprints); gray everywhere (and I like gray); painted wood (which seems to be license to use lower-grade millwork).

Thing is, so many people are so attuned by the trends (well, several million people can't be wrong, can they?) that you deviate from that at your own risk. I've lost count of how many things we changed in houses when we put them up for sale because what we liked was considered "extreme".

iris lilies

1-19-21, 12:36pm

Agreed .Steve, I normally like gray a lot. It’s a pleasant neutral and if it wasn’t so damn popular everywhere I would’ve done my condo in the color gray which wears well on my eyes. Instead I’m ( likely) doing it in navy which is trendy. But I just can’t stand thinking about doing everything in gray Even though you can mix-and-match several shades of gray and it’s lovely. So now I’m talking myself into gray I need to stop!

My favorite decorator is named Lauren Berg. Her own furniture walls and upholstery are a kind of light chartreuse. My living room is slightly darker yellowy-green. She recently linked in her blog to another decorator who had yellowy green walls and accents. I’m beginning to think that’s the color of us oldsters. I plan to use that color in my Herman house because I still find it pleasant After living with it in the city house for a while.

JaneV2.0

1-19-21, 12:54pm

I've come to admire gray, but my favorite shade is taupe. I hope that doesn't become trendy any time soon.
I like chartreuse, puce, and coral, which--if I were a decorator--I'd punch up the taupe with.

Gardnr

1-19-21, 12:59pm

Thing is, so many people are so attuned by the trends (well, several million people can't be wrong, can they?) that you deviate from that at your own risk. I've lost count of how many things we changed in houses when we put them up for sale because what we liked was considered "extreme".

We are super trendy :cool: Builder beige walls. Corian counters in kitchen/bathrooms that we installed 20 years ago. Original solid Alder kitchen cabinets circa 1989. Original siding-light green w/dark trim. New paint in 2019 (every 15y right?)

Trend hounds. That's us:~)

catherine

1-19-21, 1:03pm

My favorite decorator is named Lauren Berg. Her own furniture walls and upholstery are a kind of light chartreuse. My living room is slightly darker yellowy-green. She recently linked in her blog to another decorator who had yellowy green walls and accents. I’m beginning to think that’s the color of us oldsters. I plan to use that color in my Herman house because I still find it pleasant After living with it in the city house for a while.

I think it's really interesting how after 44 years of "keeping house" I still migrate to combinations of green and yellow. The very first house we lived in--upstairs in a charming Victorian home--we painted the walls yellow and the trim and moulding green. Naturally. This was 1977.

Fast forward to the house we bought in 2017/2018, and guess what. Many, many pictures my eye is drawn to on Pinterest happen to be combinations of green and yellow. Different tones and shades of course--now the green is less "avocado" and more "seafoam" and the yellow is less "harvest gold" and more "buttercup". but there is something about green and yellow that's baked into my lifelong preferences.

ApatheticNoMore

1-19-21, 1:42pm

For anyone who missed it: In post #27 of this thread I was playing devil's advocate. Yes, I really am that cynical about the future, but there are still some slim reasons to hope things will get better and we'll somehow muddle along as a species for a few more centuries. I just wouldn't bet on it unless all the corporations and powers that be suddenly realize saving the planet is a better investment than maximizing this year's profit margin.

Oh I 100% agreed with you. But into my 40s, it's probably not my problem anymore either. Unfortunately I probably still have around 3 decades to live to see it all collapse.

Teacher Terry

1-19-21, 2:05pm

I like having a accent wall or 2 in a room. Green is my favorite color. When I use a accent color than the other walls are cream. 2 of the condos I am seeing have very high end finishes and used some bold color in accent walls that I wouldn’t have chosen but are beautiful.

LDAHL

1-19-21, 4:14pm

When the nihilist mobs break into my bunker for what’s left of my canned beans and toilet paper after the predicted collapse, they will find it decorated in taupe and puce.

SteveinMN

1-19-21, 5:47pm

another decorator who had yellowy green walls and accents. I’m beginning to think that’s the color of us oldsters.
We follow Gardnr's schedule for painting -- every 15 years; we're due now. DW and I rather quickly agreed on the color in which the inside of the house will be painted (except maybe for the main bedroom): white with just the faintest intimation of green. A few years ago we painted the room DW uses as a dressing room a color called "Celery" but which was far darker in a 10x10 room than any stalk of celery I've seen (and, of course, much darker than three square inches of paint chip). We figure a white that sat next to a can of green should be dark enough once we paint an entire house with it.

razz

1-19-21, 6:27pm

I love a pale taupe with trim either cloud white or light wood grain. It is timeless, neutral and I can go nuts with accents of bright colours if I choose.

Yppej

1-19-21, 6:33pm

There is one budget HGTV show, Home Town. In one episode they could not afford a vanity so they taped or glued cloth around the bottom of the freestanding sink, for example.

catherine

1-19-21, 6:45pm

There is one budget HGTV show, Home Town. In one episode they could not afford a vanity so they taped or glued cloth around the bottom of the freestanding sink, for example.

Home Town is actually the one HGTV show that I typically don't wind up yelling at the TV when I watch. Yesterday they had an episode where they did the typical "here are two houses which do you want" and the buyer said that she didn't want to mention it, but her father had left her the house she grew up in which had been destroyed by Katrina and abandoned. So Erin and Ben (the hosts) checked it out and agreed to do what they could. They carefully removed the mahogany panels that had been installed by her grandfather so they could create a porch but they used them for French doors. They kept the old-fashioned armoire. They saved whatever they could, refinishing the floors and barely touching the old fireplaces except for replacing ruined tiles. They really do appreciate the houses and they seem to even appreciate the rougher elements and the things that really make a house a home.

So this woman was able to get a respectfully restored version of the home she shared with her dad and loved.

NewGig

1-19-21, 6:48pm

We still have some paint. It's off white. The baseboards are dark grayish black. Really original, right? The dining room 1/2 of the kitchen is going to be painted soon, because I just today got the new fabric for curtains. RIght now, it's wood with shellac, that's it. That's the way the house came (it's a log home) it's like living in a crate. No -- wait. It IS living in a crate!

rosarugosa

1-20-21, 7:14am

Tybee

1-20-21, 7:43am

rosarugosa

1-20-21, 9:59am

I love that picture Tybee, but no insulation, right? Or wrong?
NewGig, can you please inform me? Now I'm curious about the insulation aspect since we live in New England.

GeorgeParker

1-20-21, 10:04am

Ask any you shall receive:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi0yten1qruAhUHPa0KHcRiARoQFjALegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.truenorthloghomes.com%2Flog-wall-r-value%2F&usg=AOvVaw1lqCY1iHrgNsPRsPEh3cRN

:)
(https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwi0yten1qruAhUHPa0KHcRiARoQFjALegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.truenorthloghomes.com%2Flog-wall-r-value%2F&usg=AOvVaw1lqCY1iHrgNsPRsPEh3cRN)

iris lilies

1-20-21, 10:54am

I don't know how you feel about painting the interior of a log home, but I found some beautiful images of just that, like this one:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c7/59/7b/c7597b421e8f231cbaa4376a77861dd5.jpg

I think that’s beautiful, but I wonder how effective the paint is. How long does it take to paint, how many coats, and does it bleed thru after time goes by.

I think log homes are cute and cozy and attractive, but they’re not for me. I need smooth walls with color.

we have ongoing debate in our neighborhood about painting interior masonry walls. In my house, 30 years ago we built an addition, so what was an exterior wall became an interior wall. Without hesitation I painted it white. 30 years later I do not regret that, I still love my white brick kitchen wall.

But if I was doing it today with an eye to selling our house, I would leave it “natural “red brick because that’s what people like.Our friend is getting ready to sell her house and she plans on painting her red brick wall because the mortar crumbles and that is messy, and I am begging her to leave it alone. New buyers won’t know that the mortar crumbles because people don’t know those things and they will most likely prefer a red brick wall. Of course she could always put polyurethane on it and keep it red.

Another friend had a red brick wall and she thought it was great. I thought it was hideous. It was an interior wall that the Victorians never intended to be exposed, they used plaster. It was poorly tuck-pointed with globs of gray that didn’t match the brick. It was ugly. But she thought it looked cool. OK whatever, to each his own.

catherine

1-20-21, 11:04am

I like that look. My question is--is that interior really the log, or some type of shiplap? When I see log home interiors, they generally look like this, with either painted or natural, stained wood.

3580

3581

NewGig

1-20-21, 7:13pm

Okay, we painted the living room. The living room has two exteriior, log walls and the remaining walls are wallboard. The logs require this prep: sanding lightly over the shellac and more strenuously over the knots. Cover knots with special knot hole paint. This amused me a lot, it made the wall look like it had been attacked by mosquitos at camp. The stuff starts pink and turns white when it dries. Then you sand it, again. Then you touch up any knots where the sanding took off too much of the cover. Then you sand those. Then you put down primer and sand it, twice. Then you paint, finally. Then you sand that. Then you put on the second coat. Then you sand that or do touch up. And you're done --- sort of.

And four years later? The paint looks great, but all the knots now show through the paint, so the two walls need to be carefully sanded, the knots covered with shellac (what we decided to try this time), sanded, knot sealer, sand, primer, sand, paint. And we're hoping it doesn't look like hell when we do this. The paint is a Farrow and Ball product, $130 or so a gallon. We used 3 gallons on the living room. The baseboard paint doesn't need knot sealer, because the paint is blackish.

When we paint the kitchen, we won't sand the knots. We'll just keep the shellac that's there. But the rest of it will be sanded, primered, and painted, like before.

Re insulation? The log walls aren't insulated. There's a textured/drop ceiling on the upstairs portion of the house. There's insulation we're replacing in the downstairs floor joists. There's not much insulation on the ceiling where this place is one floor. We added a porch to the left side and put in an insulated slab for that. Which has made a big difference, both because the north face of the house isn't exposed and because of adding insulation.

The interior of the log walls is milled, so it looks like shiplap. But for years I've said it looks like someone put in panelling when they were drunk, because they put it in going the wrong way. Saying it looks like shiplap is less amusing, but just as accurate!

If we didn't also have wide plank pine floors downstairs, it would probably be pretty warm underfoot. As it is, the minisplit has made a huge difference. We augment it with the woodstove now. But when we heated with wood, the downstairs was cold. The upstairs has insulation atop the ceiling and under the roof. There's also insulation under the wall to wall carpet. We've been adding insulation to the basement/under the downstairs floor. It's difficult, because it's a crawlspace, rather than a full basement.

So, interior? I have log walls. I have shiplap where we filled in a window opening, to make the wall look less unlog like. And I have wallboard. There's all of that. Basically, it's two log boxes joined together with one side open between them and plaster interior walls.

iris lilies

1-20-21, 8:16pm

Newgig, thanks for that thorough explanation of wall treatment on the logs.a lot of work!

rosarugosa

1-21-21, 6:36am

Wow, that does sound like a lot of work. Thanks for the explanation and I wish you a very satisfactory outcome for all your efforts!

Thanks GP for the information on log houses.

NewGig

1-21-21, 11:14am

iris lilies

1-21-21, 11:59am

IL, we had a family business and owned the building. The building was brick. My dad and uncle had a minor fight about whether to paint the exterior of the building? My dad won, because a painted brick wall then needs to be repainted every few years and a raw brick wall doesn't. My uncle was all about how things looked, but he was also a frugal soul...
That was the right decision. Painting exterior masonry is a whole different kettle of fish from interior brick. Painting the masonry is known in my area as the quick cheap fix. It is forbidden in my historic neighborhood. It is forbidden in my personal rule book.

when you put a layer of paint on exterior brick, it changes The chemical nature of the finish. It allows moisture to be trapped between the layer of paint and the finished brick. Then the brick breaks down.

Exterior brick has a hard surface to hold up to weather. In my city the interior bricks are what’s known as “soft” brick and they crumble and do not stand up to outside weather. Me, I would never have an exposed interior brick wall made of soft brick because I think they’re ugly and they look wrong to me. But that’s merely aesthetics, many people like that look.

I have paid big bucks to have paint removed on one of my tiny houses, always owned by poor people and they slapped paint on the front of it rather than tuckpoint it. A cheap and fast fix.

NewGig

1-21-21, 12:12pm

I think perhaps the biggest change may be that folks do less driving. We've all been combining trips to save our being out, right? Combining the trip to the market and library and feed store in one trip. We're not going on spur of the moment trips. We're not driving for fun.

Hotels may change to conference centers? The defunct hotel in our town is being rehabbed as a rehab residency.

happystuff

1-22-21, 12:03pm

when you put a layer of paint on exterior brick, it changes The chemical nature of the finish. It allows moisture to be trapped between the layer of paint and the finished brick. Then the brick breaks down.

Exterior brick has a hard surface to hold up to weather. In my city the interior bricks are what’s known as “soft” brick and they crumble and do not stand up to outside weather.

Never had a brick house, so never knew much about such things. This was my "learned something new today". Thanks.

Simone

1-23-21, 12:48am

LDAHL

1-24-21, 11:07am

That was the right decision. Painting exterior masonry is a whole different kettle of fish from interior brick. Painting the masonry is known in my area as the quick cheap fix. It is forbidden in my historic neighborhood. It is forbidden in my personal rule book.

when you put a layer of paint on exterior brick, it changes The chemical nature of the finish. It allows moisture to be trapped between the layer of paint and the finished brick. Then the brick breaks down.

Exterior brick has a hard surface to hold up to weather. In my city the interior bricks are what’s known as “soft” brick and they crumble and do not stand up to outside weather. Me, I would never have an exposed interior brick wall made of soft brick because I think they’re ugly and they look wrong to me. But that’s merely aesthetics, many people like that look.

I have paid big bucks to have paint removed on one of my tiny houses, always owned by poor people and they slapped paint on the front of it rather than tuckpoint it. A cheap and fast fix.

What are your thoughts on German smear or mortar washing?