View Full Version : I Hate My House (Long)
Is covid and being home getting to anyone else? I have a long list of grievances, but know I should be saving for retirement and not fixing these:
One bathroom, right outside my bedroom. DS has OCD and won't use the bathroom until I and my germs have been out of it for awhile. So he will come down in the night and tries to be quiet but I wake up and of course then I need to go. This is the source of endless arguments especially on weekends since I am home all the time, and the older I get the more I have to go.
The family room is the logical place to add a half bath but the acoustic tile ceiling is coming down in places so likely would create issues with a building inspection for a bathroom. The ceiling also has holes and stains.
The kitchen, original to the house, built in 1950, has missing cabinet doors, jagged dog-eared countertops, a gaping hole where the broken dishwasher was that I removed, and some the piping under the sink is metal and does not meet code. DS will only eat packaged foods and wants to cook and eat more healthfully but will only do so if we get a new dishwasher since he thinks washing dishes by hand is not sanitary. He uses styrofoam bowls and plastic utensils only, despite my telling him from me and my brothers working in a plastic cutlery factory as teens the plastics are not sanitary. Kids used to goof around, using the forks to "comb" their hair, throw silverware at each other and some lands on the floor but is scooped up and packaged, etc. He says he will pay for the dishwasher but I would pay for the plumbing and electrical.
The hot water is rusty so either the hot water heater is bad or the old piping is rusting out.
All the old insulation either disintegrated over the years (blown in ground up newspaper in the attic and walls) or got soaked with mouse urine (the pink stuff in the basement) and was pulled out. It would make sense if removing the ceiling to install insulation at the same time. And this would allow at least the side of DS's room to be insulated rather than having to go through a crawl space in his closet. He does not want anyone in his room due to his germaphobia and it is cold up there.
The electricity is also out in his room due to overloading and I have been waiting since summer for him to prepare himself for someone to fix this. He is running a cord downstairs for power, but this also impacts me. Some lights downstairs do not work because they are on the same circuit. Also to use his microwave he unplugs the primary set top box and then I get no TV reception until he fixes it. We were told years ago we need to add a subpanel but he doesn't like the idea as it might involve someone going in his room to rework which putlets go where.
He has terrible social anxiety and wants to minimize his time outdoors where people can see him shoveling so he used his $1200 stimulus and bought a snowblower. So when the ground thaws we have to get a shed to put it in since a device with gas cannot be in the house, plus the house has no ramp to move it down. We do not have a garage. He will not let me shovel because he says it makes him look bad to the neighbors.
The house is cold not only due to lack of insulation but because he insists on having the blinds open at night as he is paranoid people will let their dogs poop on the yard and not pick it up. If he hears a noise he wants to be able to rush downstairs and look out the window quickly without having to open a blind, because the cord for the blind could have my germs on it. One time he tried opening the blind holding a disinfectant wipe but the cord brushed against him and he got "dirty". I tried closing the blinds in the fall when it started getting cold and it was a huge argument. This dog poop paranoia has been going on for over a year now and last winter got so severe he landed up in the psych ward suicidal. He does not care that I don't want people to be able to see into the house when it is dark and the lights are on. His illness rules supreme.
We installed floodlights for security and he wants cameras also to catch dog pooper non scoopers. He does not want a wifi security system because it could be hacked. He built a computer but has not done anything else for weeks now - run cabling, order the cameras, etc though these are expenses I am covering.
And the floodlights were a waste. He complained I kept setting them off or the plow trucks or trash trucks did and he was worried this would annoy the neighbors, and also desensitize them so if an intruder came they would not pay attention. I was going out of my way in a back door to avoid tripping them, but that back door went through a room where he installed homemade window bars and he was worried with the lights on people would see the bars and be prepared to cut through them if they were casing the house. So one evening I was bringing in groceries and rather than stumble in the dark back room came in the closer side door tripping the floodlights and he refuses to have them on now saying I am too incompetent to be around them. This was the last of numerous arguments about the lights.
The furnace is over 23 years old, don't know how long it will trying to heat the cold house with the blinds open all night.
So this is not so much I hate my house as I hate the strain of living in a 71 year old house with a mentally ill person and I feel very trapped. With covid and having to stay home so much it is definitely the hardest year yet. There have been so many arguments he hasn't even been willing to celebrate Christmas with me yet.
The house is also cluttered with all sorts of things he does not want in his room because they are "dirty". He will use the sink and shower but will not use the toilet since he is worried about back splash. So some of the things laying around are gallons of urine. He has a commode in his room and poops onto tin foil he puts in the trash. I have tried many times to get him to use the toilet to no avail. He will not let me know who his counselor or psychiatrist are since he is afraid I will report this to them.
Teacher Terry
1-24-21, 7:10pm
He needs professional help. I would start with the social worker at the hospital he was last seen at. The SW should be able to provide you with appropriate resources. So very sorry for both of you.
Is he able to work or live independently of you and your support?
This seems an almost unbelievable scenario. There are a number of different challenges that need to be addressed. The condition of the house is just one.
With the conditions you describe, I'd make sure my home insurance was paid up and sufficiently sized.
Do you have EAP at work? I would start by calling them; they might have suggestions as this sounds like a crisis situation to me.
He is not able to work. He was finally approved for SSI but the amount is low because he lives with me. Due to his social anxiety I cannot see him living in subsidized housing, which are all apartments with common walls and even closer proximity to people.
I don't see what will happen if I ever retire and we have to be around each other all day.
I called the EAP when he was hospitalized. They could only come up with one counselor for me and she pulled a no show.
Try again. Keep trying until you get some help. You are in crisis, understandably.
Oh my, that is a tough situation. I am wondering what happens to your son if something happens to you? It doesn't sound like either your son's condition or your living situation is something that can continue as it is indefinitely.
We also have issues in the summer. According to my son the HVAC tech said our house does not support central air because the ductwork is too "wonky". So we use window A/Cs and he does not want me talking to him at a volume he can hear over them. He won't watch TV except with headphones because he is so worried the neighbors will hear. Never mind that the neighbors themselves are noisy. He also cut a hole in his window frame to get the AC to fit and he never patched it for winter, another reason the house is cold in winter, and something that allows normal conversations to be heard through the exterior wall.
So one solution would be to move to a different house further from any neighbors, ideally with two bathrooms, a dishwasher, etc. Housing is the same or cheaper in the area where I work, but I do not think anyone would want to buy my house with it as run down as it is.
rosarugosa
1-24-21, 8:16pm
I'm sorry, Jeppy. That doesn't sound like any way to live. I do think that making reasonable updates and repairs to your home are reasonable expenditures, and it makes sense to do these while you are still working. Unfortunately, I have no useful suggestions related to your son's issues in preventing these things from being done.
Yes--my unprofessional opinion is that your son needs to learn to live independently or to agree to some kind of group living situation. I'm with those who counsel you to keep pushing for help. That's no way to live.
Teacher Terry
1-24-21, 8:29pm
It’s time to think about what will happen when you are no longer here. It would be better for him to face hard choices now while he is younger than when much older. I wouldn’t live like that. He is controlling your life and making you miserable.
It’s time to think about what will happen when you are no longer here. It would be better for him to face hard choices now while he is younger than when much older.
This.
In fact, my first thought on reading the original post was that it seemed it would be a better use of home improvement money to spend it on counseling for DS, even if sessions had to be paid for out of pocket. DS has some serious issues.
The house has some issues, too, but people without DS's behaviors would accept choices that remedied many of those problems. Based on what Yppej wrote, though, she wouldn't be able to sell the house in its present condition here in Minnesota to anyone but the "ugly house people", at whatever price they thought they could get away with, because it would never pass a code inspection and qualify for financing with an ordinary buyer.
iris lilies
1-24-21, 9:29pm
This.
In fact, my first thought on reading the original post was that it seemed it would be a better use of home improvement money to spend it on counseling for DS, even if sessions had to be paid for out of pocket. DS has some serious issues.
The house has some issues, too, but people without DS's behaviors would accept choices that remedied many of those problems. Based on what Yppej wrote, though, she wouldn't be able to sell the house in its present condition here in Minnesota to anyone but the "ugly house people", at whatever price they thought they could get away with, because it would never pass a code inspection and qualify for financing with an ordinary buyer.
I am sure the son has been to counseling. Jeppy cant make him do anything. Of course she could sell the house in this market (granted I do not know her local market but real estate is booming in general.)
to me, this is key: She said “ His illness rules supreme.”
That is the key here, nothing else matters as much.
Jeppy needs to get professional help to excricate herself from this situation.
DS receives counseling and is on medication, though I do not know to what extent he is forthcoming with the counselor and psychiatrist or compliant with the meds. Pre-covid they had him going for regular blood tests to make sure he was on his meds.
He did agree to take care of being present for the furnace cleaning due soon, which he has done in the past, though usually after a couple months delay as it takes him a long time to clean up his mess before letting anyone in the house.
I have addressed various code issues over the years, including the furnace venting downwards instead of up, replaced a leaky oil tank, and have been proactive with roof repairs, etc. But last year I did not do anything as I wanted to save for the day when my car dies. It has over 120,000 miles now. So this year I want to get back to the house. At its age there is always something going wrong. I do what I can myself, including extensive landscaping and painting inside and out, and have in the past paid for insulation, all new steel exterior doors, replaced about half the windows, about a quarter of the flooring, installed a garbage disposal, new tub liner, gutters, a bathroom exhaust fan, etc. I don't want to live in a dump.
iris lilies
1-24-21, 9:36pm
You know, I just skim read the first post and wondered to myself why son is t using a porta potty set up. Then I carefully read to the end and see, oh yeah—there it is. So he is doing that, at least. It makes a certain kind of sense.
but he has to EMPTY the urine and feces containers.
That is part of the boundaries jeppy needs to set.no emptying, no live with her.
Simplemind
1-24-21, 9:37pm
Teacher Terry beat me to it. It is time to make plans for him to be independent from you and you from him. This is a loving choice although he is not going to see it that way for awhile. You can sell that house. You can find housing for him. You can get a nice small affordable place for yourself. Look into county services that cover this situation. I know where I am it would be Adult and Aging Services. You are in crisis, he is in crisis. Do the loving and responsible thing for both of you.
iris lilies
1-24-21, 10:06pm
I’m curious to know what authority allows anyone to take his blood to test for medication.That is interesting. He must have voluntarily agreed to it?
Yes, he agreed to the blood tests. It is not an easy illness and he does make some efforts. Sometimes we get along great but more often things are tense. The ups and downs come from bipolar which he has in addition to the anxiety disorders.
Teacher Terry
1-24-21, 10:25pm
I knew someone that was trapped in a similar situation with a adult daughter that was schizophrenic. She had suicide attempts and was in and out of the psychiatric hospital. Eventually the mom moved into her own small apartment and the daughter was forced to move into low income housing. The mentally ill daughter ended up doing better when she was forced to rise to the occasion. Studies have shown that this isn’t a unusual outcome. I have had to make hard choices with my drug addict son to protect myself. It might help to join a support group of parents with similar problems.
Today another recurring issue. He is concerned that the sound of the trash and recycling barrels being wheeled to the curb will disturb the neighbors so he lifts and carries them. A couple weeks ago he was asleep and so I wheeled them out and he got very upset and said I should have woken him up to do it. Last week he was awake but complained I had used the bathroom when he needed to wash his hands after taking the barrels out. Today I want upstairs to ask does he want to take the barrels out before I use the bathroom and he kept saying to leave him alone. I just can't win.
He doesn't want them put out the night before because people looking for aluminum cans come and paw through the trash.
He is mentally ill, obviously, as you know. I think you have shown that and there is no reasoning it out or making him better by you, and no living in this situation or adapting yourself to it.
I think you have to get help to change the situation--either get him living in a sheltered living situation or sell your house and move yourself somewhere without him.
So at this point it doesn't matter what he does, you know it is unbearable living with the mental illness, and you need to save yourself first.
Teacher Terry
1-25-21, 9:46am
There are programs for severely mentally ill people that provide independent living support such as the PACT or ACT programs. You will have to sell your house to a company that buys houses. Get into therapy and support groups first and then either buy a condo or rent a apartment. Likely once he doesn’t live with you he will qualify for more support and programs. You are delaying the inevitable and I would save myself. I know it’s so difficult because my son has been homeless for years. I hated when he lived here because if we went downtown we would see him on the street. A good friend of mine had to do tough love before me and at the time I thought it was cruel. It wasn’t and I eventually followed suit. Her son had severe ADHD, plus a substance abuse problem.
Another good friend of mine has a daughter my age like your son. She got sick of being homeless and now is in a good living situation with her own small place in a big building. You aren’t alone and many parents have to either ruin their own lives just to delay the inevitable. I know we have had differences but I really can feel your pain. You are trying to make things better which is the definition of insanity. I have been where you are trying to save my son. In the end you can only save yourself.
rosarugosa
1-25-21, 10:41am
I think TT has excellent relevant advice from both personal and professional experience. I would just add that even though your son thinks this is what he wants, it doesn't exactly sound like his quality of life is very high. Maybe not the best analogy, but there was a time where I would have said take anything but my cigarettes, and it turns out that I am SO much happier, and my quality of life is SO much better without them.
The last time I asked him to leave - when he was 18 and very rude and disrespectful which he is not now - I got major grief from my family. My mother said, "Where is your mother love?" as an example, and my parents took him in for a year until he returned home with me after being hospitalized.
It does not help that one of my brothers lives off his wife while for over a decade he is trying to write a book, gave up on that, now trying to write a play. Before that he worked part-time with no benefits. My other brother has lived with my parents for at least that long, well before they were so old they needed help, and used to at least cover his own food but no longer even does that while he pursues being an artist. So he does not have good role models.
Simplemind
1-25-21, 12:19pm
Mother love is getting help by way of accepting that mother can't fix an unfixable problem. Mother love is putting her oxygen mask on first so she can be clear headed and stable to help her son in his independence. Always love how family judges the caregiver is best even when they are obviously sitting in a flaming dumpster. I feel so badly for both you and your son. He is obviously leading a small and miserable life and is helpless to do anything but pull you down with him as long as you live together.
iris lilies
1-25-21, 12:23pm
Mother love is getting help by way of accepting that mother can't fix an unfixable problem. Mother love is putting her oxygen mask on first so she can be clear headed and stable to help her son in his independence. Always love how family judges the caregiver is best even when they are obviously sitting in a flaming dumpster. I feel so badly for both you and your son. He is obviously leading a small and miserable life and is helpless to do anything but pull you down with him as long as you live together.
yes.And of course you want to help your son and of course you HAVE already helped your son. And some of that help has turned into a miserable spiral of enabling behavior.
That’s why I suggested up thread that the OP will need outside help to get out of the situation. By outside help I mean some counseling, some professional sources to point out for her son, probably some group therapy with Parents of mentally ill children, and some Real estate professional help.
Jeppy, please start to take the steps to make something new happen in your life.
And I will say that beware of any counselor who makes you feel guilty for taking the steps.
On the Mr. Money Mustache site is someone who is claiming her therapist has encouraged her to “help” i.e.. enable her mentally ill hoarder mother who squats in a falling-down house she neither owns nor rents, living with no water service for years.
You will probably feel Guild along the path of this journey which is why you need outside help, a clear voice to help you see beyond that.
Teacher Terry
1-25-21, 12:38pm
So your parents have 2 sons that they enable and they judged you. Wow that’s awful. When they die the one brother is going to have a rude awakening as is the other if his wife gets sick of him being a free loader. You won’t have family support so definitely will need outside support. In your situation I would be very tempted to sell the house and move across the country. Don’t let your parents guilt you into being as sick as they are.
SteveinMN
1-25-21, 12:55pm
The last time I asked him to leave - when he was 18 and very rude and disrespectful which he is not now - I got major grief from my family. My mother said, "Where is your mother love?" as an example, and my parents took him in for a year until he returned home with me after being hospitalized.
Seems to me that's a very easy thing to say when they don't have to deal with the variable set of behaviors your son constantly presents -- and your comments about your siblings down thread put it in an even greater perspective. Maybe your family would be happy to take your son in for a few months so you can prep the house for the best possible sale.
I haven't had the experience of having a very mentally lll adult child in my care, but I have had to deal with irrational behavior from another close family member and the only way out of it was... out. I was enabling the behavior and I had to stop as it wasn't helping either of us in the long run. I'm happy to say things are much better now, but it took a lot of deep thought and sessions with a counselor before I finally felt okay with ripping off the bandage. That can be scary in itself. It's easier to do that with support from a third party who can see the situation for what it is, not the enmeshed circumstances you find yourself in. I'm sorry you have to go through this, Yppej. I hope you can find a way out, too.
Do you have guardianship of him, Jeppy?
Do you have a local chapter of NAMI? They could be helpful for advice on a move toward independent or sheltered living.
No I do not have guardianship. I went to one NAMI meeting a while back - there were only 2 other people there and their family members had different illnesses and different issues, so I didn't find it very helpful.
The issues are not all with my son. I get very frustrated and do not always react well. The other day after he was scolding me for getting up to pee during the night he went in the other room and was banging things when I was trying to fall back asleep, had his headphones in and would not take them out to talk to me, as I tried to approach him to talk kept backing away and saying, "Don't come near me" and accused me of yelling so the neighbors would hear, which I was not doing, though I had raised my voice some hoping he could hear me over the headphones. I got so mad he would not speak to me I gave him the finger, and of course I felt bad after, and he won't accept any apologies, he instead says don't ever say again I want a relationship with him, I obviously don't mean it. This is a typical cycle though I never gave him the finger before.
Teacher Terry
1-25-21, 2:34pm
You are human and can’t expect to be perfect. Don’t blame yourself. You are probably walking around on eggshells. You didn’t create this situation and neither did he. You have to accept and move on. There’s nothing you can do to change his behavior. Alanon is helpful because it teaches people to accept what is.
Definitely my parents are enablers. Before my brother got married he was in his 30's living at their house in his childhood bedroom working on a book, which has never been published.
They were hardest on me because I was the oldest. When I lived with them briefly as an adult to get out of debt I paid them rent every week, and as soon as I could I left, and I am the only one who managed to remain independent. They never charged my brothers rent.
My brother has made comments to my son that if he has trouble getting along with my parents he will just come live with me. I think he thinks when they pass that is what will happen. It will not. Neither of my brothers are mentally ill and both are able bodied and capable of getting jobs.
My brother has made comments to my son that if he has trouble getting along with my parents he will just come live with me. I think he thinks when they pass that is what will happen. It will not. Neither of my brothers are mentally ill and both are able bodied and capable of getting jobs.
Sell the house and get a very small place. You need to get rid of these millstones about your neck. Heck, I’d even be in favor of moving and leaving no forwarding address.
I do feel for my son because he does genuinely struggle with his illness, and he wants to be independent. He does not want to be on disability his whole life. He has talked about getting his own place and having a relationship. But given his conditions he could not handle a lot of jobs. He has unrealistic plans like to make money with Youtube videos. He also spends up to 3 hours a day submitting entries to Publishers Clearinghouse - you know how if you sign up to enter the sweepstakes they spam you with add more entries by doing this or that online. He attended college - 2 years at community college went fine but then at the state university he was bullied and only lasted 1 year, did not graduate. He has no real skills or credentials though he has aptitudes.
Are you going to sacrifice having a quiet life or whatever you want due to your son? He has to sink or swim. If he won’t accept any help, then that’s on HIM, not you.
He does go for psychiatric help. It is hard for me to be a Social Darwinian with him.
iris lilies
1-25-21, 5:31pm
He does go for psychiatric help. It is hard for me to be a Social Darwinian with him.
Sure it is hard, made doubly so because the guy is trying. He is making an effort.
But now it is clear that his best effort still results in an unacceptable situation. You have given him time to show his best effort and that is a nice gift from you. Now you need to go forth in the next phase of your life with having him be independant, and you downsizing and simplifying and saving for retirement.
I can see that the two of you pooling finances would make a better economic team, but that doesn’t appear to be viable due to his requirements of living. There just isn’t enough separateness in living situations that are practical. Those houses with accessory living units in back are pretty much non existent.
Do you really have to own a place? For people on a limited income, in retirement, moving to a cheaper, milder climate than NE seems best to me.If ypu can’t grok moving, then I guess you might as well buy a place in NE.
I got home and he had left some money for me with a note that said Rent, probably because I told him things I wanted him to do since he lived here rent free and he took offense. I am accepting this. I think it will be good for him to not feel like he is such a dependent.
He did a lot of cleaning but not of the gallons of urine. I was going to put them outside his room so he can look at them instead of me but it was dark by the time I got home and the light on the stairs is one of the ones that is out.
Thank you all for your feedback. I took the EAP number with me to call at lunchtime but then another call for me came in then. I am also thinking more in terms of making the home sellable. I would love a place with an in-law apartment for him but as you note IL there are very few of those. I have not seen any while looking at places near my job. The housing stock there is mainly older and I would likely run into the same issues I have now, but there are small homes between here and there that are newer, nice and cozy not McMansions.
I have about 14 years to go before I retire. I like my company but it is only in the northeast, no warm climates. Maine would be cheaper but colder.
iris lilies
1-25-21, 6:41pm
I got home and he had left some money for me with a note that said Rent, probably because I told him things I wanted him to do since he lived here rent free and he took offense. I am accepting this. I think it will be good for him to not feel like he is such a dependent.
He did a lot of cleaning but not of the gallons of urine. I was going to put them outside his room so he can look at them instead of me but it was dark by the time I got home and the light on the stairs is one of the ones that is out.
Thank you all for your feedback. I took the EAP number with me to call at lunchtime but then another call for me came in then. I am also thinking more in terms of making the home sellable. I would love a place with an in-law apartment for him but as you note IL there are very few of those. I have not seen any while looking at places near my job. The housing stock there is mainly older and I would likely run into the same issues I have now, but there are small homes between here and there that are newer, nice and cozy not McMansions.
I have about 14 years to go before I retire. I like my company but it is only in the northeast, no warm climates. Maine would be cheaper but colder.
I was thinking more about where you live when retired. So your next move should take that into account. If you cannot concede to moving to a warmer, cheaper, climate in retirement, then you might as well buy your next abode.
exited to add:
But if you plan to move to a warmer cheaper place upon retirement you might want to just rent for the next 14 years.
I'd think long and hard about Maine. I'm not digging it, frankly. IF you have a support system in Mass, why not get him out and you stay.
But I'd pick a smaller house, a house for one only.
Teacher Terry
1-26-21, 10:27am
Tybee, what don’t you like about Maine? I know that if you move to a small town in upstate New York it takes about 10 years to be accepted even if you came from another small town around there. Luckily my husband was a native so no problem when we moved back.
We're in a part of Maine I don't like, the mountains, for reasons that had to do with getting out here to help my parents, and our inability to afford any real estate in the parts of Maine we did like, and the need to be within an hour and a half drive of my parents.
I have no idea about the people since we are in a pandemic and no one can do anything with other people anyway. I'm sure they are very nice, although we also lived in upstate New York and no one spoke to us for 10 years and maybe this will be the same way, who knows.
Cost of living is much higher than where we came from, taxes are higher, and services and shopping poorer, although they do a great job clearing the roads of snow.
I miss Lake Michigan, I miss our drives out in great physical beauty, I miss the Midwestern openness and practicality. I miss the widespread availability of Swedish pancake mix and lingonberries.
I just think it's a bad idea to romanticize a place and think oh, I'll move to ____, and it will be so great, because it sounds cool. I think Maine sounds cool, but so far, we like Michigan a lot better.
We would never have come but for the family, so we knew going in it might be this way.
iris lilies
1-26-21, 2:29pm
I don’t think I romanticize rural New England when I say that I know I would like it. I said that for decades before I actually ever visited there. Maybe I am overgeneralizing when I compare rural New Hampshire to Maine, but I still think I would like it or I could get to like it. It’s just that I need human institutions at a level that may not be available in places, I’m not sure. I need a library. I need a garden club. I don’t want to have to drive three hours for a garden club meeting. I would drive an hour and a half however.
I love the idea of Yankee independence. I love the idea of simplicity and Yankees! I love the idea of being able to see houses that were built in the 1700s, that is crazy to me! Crazy wonderful. And the mountains are pretty and the topography is nice and the trees are lovely.
I guess I know that I love New England because I know that I hate the west. I hate the desert. The worst damn vacation I’ve had in recent years was driving from St. Louis to Las Cruces New Mexico and days of it were spent crossing Brown land. Just shoot me in the head if I ever have to live there And I don’t care about the Rocky Mountains because they’re too big. I just don’t like them. I like the smaller mountains of New England.
So Tybee, I hope you come to like that place. I will bet there’s many things to like. Driving around looking at new sites would be of interest to me.
I don’t think I romanticize rural New England when I say that I know I would like it. I said that for decades before I actually ever visited there. Maybe I am overgeneralizing when I compare rural New Hampshire to Maine, but I still think I would like it or I could get to like it. It’s just that I need human institutions at a level that may not be available in places, I’m not sure. I need a library. I need a garden club. I don’t want to have to drive three hours for a garden club meeting. I would drive an hour and a half however.
I love the idea of Yankee independence. I love the idea of Spartan Yankees! I love the idea of being able to see houses that were built in the 1700s, that is crazy to me! Crazy wonderful. And the mountains are pretty and the topography is nice and the trees are lovely.
Come to the Burlington area some time! And Southern VT (Bennington/Manchester) is also very accessible to libraries and garden clubs. You don't have to drive an hour and a half.
Gee, I'd love to see you here, IL, even for a visit. I'll take you on a tour of historic homes.
DD and I just had a little vacay in NH: it was in the lakes region and we passed by New Hampton School, which had lovely little homes with dates on them going back to the early-mid 1800s.
And if you read the history of Vermont, it was a real anomaly among the New England colonies in that it was fought over by both NY and NH and they wound up being on their own for a while (until 1791), so they are a fiercely independent people.
Tybee, so sorry Maine isn't meeting expectations. I have a benchmark of 3 months when I move to a place. If I still am unhappy after 3 months, I consider leaving. For some reason 3 months is the time it takes me to figure out if I'm homesick vs feeling I belong in the new place. With COVID, it may take longer.
Maine is probably just fine; it's me right now, and I wish we had not moved.
If I ever get to go where I want to go, I will probably return to South Carolina.
It's odd, we both like Vermont better, and dislike New Hampshire more, although I am not sure why.
Anyway, it doesn't really matter why we are here, we are stuck for now.
Teacher Terry
1-26-21, 4:31pm
I too miss Lake Michigan and enjoy it when I go back to Wisconsin. I also loved the forest and mountains of New York. The only part of Maine I have been to was beautiful but I couldn’t live in a small town. Our area is 300k population and is perfect. I hate regular desert which is probably why I hate vegas. Northern Nevada used to be a haven for people with allergies/asthma before people moved in with plants that didn’t belong here. It’s one of the reasons it’s greener than the old days but also why my allergies are bad. I used to love to move to a new place and found it exciting. Now I value stability. Funny how our priorities change. Also moving is expensive.
I really love the term "a sense of place" and I know intuitively what it means but it's hard to describe. As they say, it's like porn: I know it when I see it.
I have felt I belong in VT. I have felt I belong in Ocean Grove, NJ. I don't think I'll ever have a real place in Ocean Grove. DH doesn't like it, and post-COVID, prices to rent or buy have skyrocketed, unfortunately.
If you feel that sense of place about South Carolina it's worth looking into. I feel that we who have paid our debt to society have the right to grow old in places that grant us peace.
iris lilies
1-26-21, 5:09pm
Come to the Burlington area some time! And Southern VT (Bennington/Manchester) is also very accessible to libraries and garden clubs. You don't have to drive an hour and a half.
Gee, I'd love to see you here, IL, even for a visit. I'll take you on a tour of historic homes.
.
I would live to visit some day. I know I would like
Vermont as well as nh
.
Theoretically I like Boston but I will never never drive in it so I will not be able to go anywhere near that place except using public transportation.
Teacher Terry
1-26-21, 6:08pm
I have been to Boston twice and loved it. Took public transit of course. Too big to live there for me and I am sure too expensive.
rosarugosa
1-27-21, 7:59am
Tybee: I think it's a really challenging time of year, compounded by effects of the pandemic, to fall in love with a new place. Give it some time. I think Maine is wonderful. Is it too personal to ask which major city you are closest to?
Tybee: I think it's a really challenging time of year, compounded by effects of the pandemic, to fall in love with a new place. Give it some time. I think Maine is wonderful. Is it too personal to ask which major city you are closest to?
Portland is the closest major city.
Theoretically I like Boston but I will never never drive in it so I will not be able to go anywhere near that place except using public transportation.
I was stationed outside Boston for three years. I knew fighter pilots who hesitated to drive there. When I moved back to the Midwest, it took nearly a year to learn to drive like a human being again.
rosarugosa
1-27-21, 2:07pm
Portland is the closest major city.
I love Portland so much! I haven't been there since 2018, and it really pains me to type that. Have you gotten a chance to explore the city at all? They have the most wonderful winter lights, and this is from the Grinch herself who dislikes most things related to Christmas. We call the lights "Seussicals" because they look like something Dr. Seuss would have created. One of my fondest memories was in 2007 when DH and I rather spontaneously spent Christmas weekend at the Portland Regency hotel. Xmas eve, we walked around the city looking at the Seussicals and I had done some shopping during the day. We had a great dinner at the hotel, and lobster Eggs Benedict for breakfast the next morning. DH's little Saturn Sky sports car was brand new and the weather was mild. We drove home on Xmas day on coastal Rte 1A, and there was no traffic at all so the drive itself was a lovely experience. I would love to do that again someday.
https://www.portlandmaine.com/winter-lights/
iris lilies
1-27-21, 2:09pm
I was stationed outside Boston for three years. I knew fighter pilots who hesitated to drive there. When I moved back to the Midwest, it took nearly a year to learn to drive like a human being again.
DH bravely took us on a Boston area interstate to the airport with me as a crappy navigator.He didn’t loose his nerve. But me...never again.
happystuff
1-27-21, 2:12pm
I've been to Burlington twice - visiting friends. Absolutely loved it! Took the boat tour around the lake - so beautiful and relaxing; walked around the outdoor market one morning; and just had fun taking walks around their neighborhood. I hope to get another visit in as soon as travel is a little more possible for me.
DH bravely took us on a Boston area interstate to the airport with me as a crappy navigator.He didn’t loose his nerve. But me...never again.I'm not a fan of big city driving and will be happy to never do it again. My worst experience was the vacation where we flew into Brussels and rented a car to drive through France. It was ok until we approached the city limits of Paris and I began to get nervous, then when we saw the Arc de Triomphe straight ahead I went into full panic mode. When we eventually made it to our hotel we parked the car and never touched it again until time to leave town.
iris lilies
1-27-21, 3:38pm
I'm not a fan of big city driving and will be happy to never do it again. My worst experience was the vacation where we flew into Brussels and rented a car to drive through France. It was ok until we approached the city limits of Paris and I began to get nervous, then when we saw the Arc de Triomphe straight ahead I went into full panic mode. When we eventually made it to our hotel we parked the car and never touched it again until time to leave town.
In all of our travels in the UK, we have never driven. I simply cannot grok driving on the wrong side of the road, with a standard shift, using my left hand. I have vaguely thought about getting a rental car from a village well out of a city center, but there aren’t any. I suppose we could have a driver take us in a rental car out to a low population place and then turn the rental car over to us, but we don’t get that fancy.
Our friend who is over 80 years old and his wife travel in Europe a lot. They no longer drive, but he would be game for it because he’s been doing it a lot. I look up to him for that!
early morning
1-27-21, 3:46pm
when we saw the Arc de Triomphe straight ahead OMG! I can deal with Boston but I would NEVER drive in Paris, esp. on the Champs Elysees. I could barely stand to take a taxi there! I remember seeing cars fanning out at the circle - the roads coming in, were, I think, two abreast- but when they pull into the intersection they are like 5 or six across, then all drivers just seemed to drive pell-mell into and around the Arc. And they aren't crawling. Made my head spin - if I'd been driving I'd have been way past panic and more like catatonic...
I love what I've seen of Burlington VT and Portland. And Salem. And everyplace else in New England that I've been able to visit! I would happily move there if we could afford it, and I don't care if no one accepts us for like 30 years (by which time I'll be likely dead) - because I'm not a people person. It is lovely country with much more geographic variety than Ohio. Which is really pretty for a fly-over state, lol. But I'm a long way from a coast, unless you count the Ohio Ocean (River), and we have to share that with Kentucky. I like the Great Lakes, of course, but we're not all that close to them. And the Appalachians are lovely, but again, not close to me.
Jeppy, if you want to relocate and have a lower cost of living with marginally better weather, you could do a lot worse than the mid-west.
OMG! I can deal with Boston but I would NEVER drive in Paris, esp. on the Champs Elysees. I could barely stand to take a taxi there! I remember seeing cars fanning out at the circle - the roads coming in, were, I think, two abreast- but when they pull into the intersection they are like 5 or six across, then all drivers just seemed to drive pell-mell into and around the Arc. And they aren't crawling. Made my head spin - if I'd been driving I'd have been way past panic and more like catatonic...
Yes, that was our third trip to Paris and I knew full well what we were approaching, that's why it scared me so badly. I made a quick left and worked my way around it eventually. Roundabouts are becoming popular in our area and I don't mind the small ones, but that one is still the largest and most disorganized I've ever seen, I still get anxious at just the thought of trying to maneuver it.
I've driven in New York City. Just worked out that way; nothing I would have volunteered to do. And I've driven in Boston frequently (ex-wife is from the area and her mom would pick us up and hand me the keys). You learn. Then you fly back home to Minnesota and have to unlearn. lol
I've never driven in Europe but I did bicycle up the mountains of northern Italy on those super small winding roads. Apparently enough people do that because there wasn't near the level of aggression cyclists usually get from drivers in the U.S.
I've been to Burlington twice - visiting friends. Absolutely loved it! Took the boat tour around the lake - so beautiful and relaxing; walked around the outdoor market one morning; and just had fun taking walks around their neighborhood. I hope to get another visit in as soon as travel is a little more possible for me.
Let me know if you ever come back!
As far as driving in cities, I am comfortable driving in NYC, but only because I know it. Washington is not fun because of all those darned circles. Internationally, I did drive in Glasgow and Edinburgh, and I was surprised that learning to drive on the left wasn't that bad.
I found that even WALKING in Rome was dangerous, after almost being mowed down by a motorcycle while crossing the street.
Maine update--had to come back now that I have had a couple of official contacts with "Maine" as an entity--went to township office and got cars registered and drove 2 hours each way to get new drivers license. While the 2 hour drive was awful, and due in part of Covid in that branch mobile offices had closed down, everyone we encountered was incredibly laid back, nice, and helpful. This is the Maine you hear about "the way life should be." So while life sucks right now, the state of Maine does not.
happystuff
1-29-21, 11:24am
Let me know if you ever come back!
Thank you! I will.
rosarugosa
1-30-21, 8:26am
Maine update--had to come back now that I have had a couple of official contacts with "Maine" as an entity--went to township office and got cars registered and drove 2 hours each way to get new drivers license. While the 2 hour drive was awful, and due in part of Covid in that branch mobile offices had closed down, everyone we encountered was incredibly laid back, nice, and helpful. This is the Maine you hear about "the way life should be." So while life sucks right now, the state of Maine does not.
I wish you many more pleasant experiences as time goes by!
I wish you many more pleasant experiences as time goes by!
Thank you, Rosa!
Glad to hear of the good experience that is unfolding in your new location. Life is challenging at times and very stressful when we go through it all.
We're in a part of Maine I don't like, the mountains, for reasons that had to do with getting out here to help my parents, and our inability to afford any real estate in the parts of Maine we did like, and the need to be within an hour and a half drive of my parents.
I have no idea about the people since we are in a pandemic and no one can do anything with other people anyway. I'm sure they are very nice, although we also lived in upstate New York and no one spoke to us for 10 years and maybe this will be the same way, who knows.
Cost of living is much higher than where we came from, taxes are higher, and services and shopping poorer, although they do a great job clearing the roads of snow.
I miss Lake Michigan, I miss our drives out in great physical beauty, I miss the Midwestern openness and practicality. I miss the widespread availability of Swedish pancake mix and lingonberries.
I just think it's a bad idea to romanticize a place and think oh, I'll move to ____, and it will be so great, because it sounds cool. I think Maine sounds cool, but so far, we like Michigan a lot better.
We would never have come but for the family, so we knew going in it might be this way.
How long have you been in Maine? Winter is IMO not its best season unless you like snowmobiling, dogsled riding, skiing, etc. Summer once you get past black fly season and fall are best. That's a good time to enjoy Moosehead and the other lakes.
You should be able to order the mix from Ikea. Do you like blueberries? That is a big Maine thing. They even have blueberry coffee.
Are you working or planning to? At one point Maine was trying to recruit tourists to move there at its rest areas when you drive across the state line. That would be a good way to meet people.
I work in a less populated part of my state and even in the pandemic the local radio station is advertising lots of jobs. It is an area described by some as insular but I have not found it so, maybe because I am used to New England social chilliness.
How long have you been in Maine? Winter is IMO not its best season unless you like snowmobiling, dogsled riding, skiing, etc. Summer once you get past black fly season and fall are best. That's a good time to enjoy Moosehead and the other lakes.
You should be able to order the mix from Ikea. Do you like blueberries? That is a big Maine thing. They even have blueberry coffee.
Are you working or planning to? At one point Maine was trying to recruit tourists to move there at its rest areas when you drive across the state line. That would be a good way to meet people.
I work in a less populated part of my state and even in the pandemic the local radio station is advertising lots of jobs. It is an area described by some as insular but I have not found it so, maybe because I am used to New England social chilliness.
Good suggestions all, Yppej. We have not been here long enough and it is a horrible time of the year for me as I have SAD and it is very cold, although I think Michigan was colder. So not a good time for me to do anything, just had no choice with this one.
Am not a skier but there is a ski hill that we can from our house, all lit up, so that's pretty.
I do like blueberries, so blueberry picking will be fun. I work remotely, but would love to work in person somewhere once this winter gets behind us a bit and it is easier for me to go out. And the tourist rest area idea is a great one. When it gets warm I might look to work at a stable or a garden center, to do something I actually enjoy for a change.
rosarugosa
1-30-21, 6:21pm
Tybee: There are two Scandinavian stores in Portland, and I think I recall them carrying lingonberry products:
https://simplyscandinavian.business.site/
Tybee: There are two Scandinavian stores in Portland, and I think I recall them carrying lingonberry products:
https://simplyscandinavian.business.site/
Thank you, will check into it!
I had four issues affecting the saleability of my house, or my ability to live in it without annoyance and self-pity:
1. Rusty water - resolved. I took time off work and met with a plumber after DS wanted to limp along indefinitely. I had a meltdown after he said I should heat pots of water on the stove and pour them in the tub to bathe in. I said some things I should not have and despite my apologies he is not speaking to me. I got one plumber in who was bad and today one who was good and installed a new hot water heater. The bad plumber's boss promised to refund my money and said the check will be going out today, fingers crossed.
2. Electrical work needed - this got worse overnight. Very strong winds knocked an outdoor light so it dangles down with exposed wires. The previous owners had the idiotic idea to attach it to the house through one of the shutters and the shutters have loosened over time and sometimes flap a little in the breeze. It rains Thursday so by Wednesday I plan to cover over the light and its exposed wires with plastic trash bags and duct tape so it won't get wet. For years I have waited for DS to get ready for an electrician to check grounding in his room. A couple years ago as the electrical wish list grew I finally had him get someone in here while promising I would pay for another electrician visit when he is ready. I may have to do this again. The biggest problem is no power in his room and so dealing with that without his cooperation is difficult. I could bring someone in and he would refuse to answer whether the power is back on in there.
3. A couple acoustic ceiling tiles are caving in. I want to tackle this when the weather is warmer since if I take up the ceiling the house will probably get colder. Other parts of that ceiling have holes and old water stains (small and prior to several roof replacements over the years).
4. Kitchen is a mess with crumbling cabinets and countertops. The most expensive and likely last problem to be fixed.
So one down, three to go.
Jeppy, sell it AS IS. The way the housing market is, you’d probably still get something decent for it.
Jeppy, sell it AS IS. The way the housing market is, you’d probably still get something decent for it.
I am looking at other homes closer to work but there isn't much out there. I continue to look. I would not sell unless I knew I would have somewhere to go.
Today my son told me he is applying for Section 8 housing. If that is what will make him happy I wish him well. We have had more disagreements over broken things in the house, most recently the dryer. A sensor must be broken because it goes for hours and I said either we should get a new dryer I would pay for or he needs to use a timer and get his laundry out after a reasonable time so it doesn't overheat and cause issues and also because it uses lots of electricity. He had taken it apart and worked on it and put it back together again and said I didn't appreciate everything he does. He has left and is choosing to spend the weekend in the car feeling hurt. At least it is not bitter cold out.
If he does leave eventually that would make it easier to fix up the place to saleable condition, giving me options to stay in it or move.
I figured someday I would have an empty nest but I hate that it's happening the way it is, with him suffering emotionally.
Jeppy, Section 8 has a very long waiting list in many areas.
Jeppy, Section 8 has a very long waiting list in many areas.
I looked it up and that is true for regular applicants but there is an expedited process for the disabled. He did say he loved me which was so nice to hear. So there is that.
I looked it up and that is true for regular applicants but there is an expedited process for the disabled. He did say he loved me which was so nice to hear. So there is that.
I think it sounds healthy and positive, that he wants to go out and make his own way--I think in the long run, this will only help your relationship, and how great that it is coming from him, that he wants to move out to his own place. I have seen some very, very nice Section 8 housing.
SteveinMN
3-27-21, 12:45pm
I figured someday I would have an empty nest but I hate that it's happening the way it is, with him suffering emotionally. Based on what you've related in this thread, your son has been suffering emotionally for quite some time, largely at his own hand. Maybe his eventual moving out isn't happening as you might have pictured it, but if he is initiating it, it's a positive sign of separation and the result addresses lots of issues between the two of you.
I am trying to see it as a positive, knowing that I myself was eager to get out on my own when I was in my twenties.
happystuff
3-27-21, 9:44pm
Good luck to him. The separation is hard, but as others have stated, can be a wonderful thing in the long run.
Turns out he does not want to leave, he just felt he was a burden but I told him he is not. He is still operating from a mindset of poverty where you should fix things and not replace them. He is still working on the ancient dryer and now his car I have been driving is making odd noises so he is stopping to take that in while I take my even noisier car to work today. I checked and the car I want to buy if I need a new one is still in stock at the dealership. So we muddle along.
Turns out he does not want to leave, he just felt he was a burden but I told him he is not. He is still operating from a mindset of poverty where you should fix things and not replace them. He is still working on the ancient dryer and now his car I have been driving is making odd noises so he is stopping to take that in while I take my even noisier car to work today. I checked and the car I want to buy if I need a new one is still in stock at the dealership. So we muddle along.
He IS a burden to you. You’re stuck now. You’re in a falling apart house with electrical issues that can’t be fixed because of HIS issues.
He IS a burden to you. You’re stuck now. You’re in a falling apart house with electrical issues that can’t be fixed because of HIS issues.
He has turned the floodlight circuit back on which allows another light to go on as well. Now only his room and one other light are impacted. But yes I would like to resolve that issue.
Teacher Terry
3-31-21, 10:22am
There’s programs nationwide for people with mental illness called Assertive Community Training (ACT or PACT) that helps people live independently and have housing. This program was developed in Wisconsin and is now the standard everywhere. All types of services are provided and people make friends and help one another. You should look for one in your area. This situation is extremely unhealthy for both of you and will only get worse as everyone ages.
I second what Terry is saying about the situation worsening as you both age. I would support him going out on his own, no matter what. I think he would be a lot more cheerful and feel less trapped if he had his own place. And so would you, but of course that is just my opinion, and I wish you a peaceful living situation--just think you should be in separate places, for everyone's sake.
Teacher Terry
4-1-21, 10:21am
A friend of mine lived with her MI daughter for decades. A rise in rents made that impossible to continue and she thought her daughter wouldn’t survive without her. The daughter went to a low income apartment for people with disabilities that was nice and the mom senior housing. They both were much happier.
I spent decades in my job warning parents not to shelter their adult children at home with disabilities but enroll them in work and group home activities and let them have a full life that everyone is entitled to. It always starts with good intentions and usually ends in misery for all involved. Especially when the parent dies or has to go to a home and the adult child has no coping skills.
A friend of mine lived with her MI daughter for decades. A rise in rents made that impossible to continue and she thought her daughter wouldn’t survive without her. The daughter went to a low income apartment for people with disabilities that was nice and the mom senior housing. They both were much happier.
I spent decades in my job warning parents not to shelter their adult children at home with disabilities but enroll them in work and group home activities and let them have a full life that everyone is entitled to. It always starts with good intentions and usually ends in misery for all involved. Especially when the parent dies or has to go to a home and the adult child has no coping skills.
Words of wisdom, Terry. An adult child who never leaves home never get to feel like a full-fledged adult. Pun was originally unintended, but I like it, so it stays.
There are many cultures in which multi-generational living is the norm. Do people there only reach full adulthood when the oldest generation dies?
iris lilies
4-1-21, 5:40pm
I also think yppey’s son should be exploring ways to move out. It may not be easy, and there may be false starts. Yppej can always serve as his soft place to land if those starts don’t last.
It's not the norm here, but with housing costs rising faster than wages can match, it could be. If you're both all right with it, it's your business. My neighbor's "kid" was about 10 when I moved in. He's still there, thirty-some years later.
There are many cultures in which multi-generational living is the norm. Do people there only reach full adulthood when the oldest generation dies?
I can only speak with any degree of insight about our own culture.
There are many cultures in which multi-generational living is the norm. Do people there only reach full adulthood when the oldest generation dies?
That's a great question, one for the anthropologists, I guess. If he's happy and you're happy and you are both able to achieve in life what you want to achieve, then by all means multi-generational living.
I saw my uncle living with my grandmother for the last 30 years of his life and he was terribly unhappy, but he had mental illness and there was not much help in those days, and he became an alcoholic, and was a bitter, unhappy man. But he had had a psychotic break living on his own in his 30's.
iris lilies
4-1-21, 6:21pm
That's a great question, one for the anthropologists, I guess. If he's happy and you're happy and you are both able to achieve in life what you want to achieve, then by all means multi-generational living.
I saw my uncle living with my grandmother for the last 30 years of his life and he was terribly unhappy, but he had mental illness and there was not much help in those days, and he became an alcoholic, and was a bitter, unhappy man. But he had had a psychotic break living on his own in his 30's.
Oh I think it’s perfectly fine for generations to live together. Sure why not? Jeppy isn’t happy with the arrangement though and neither is her son.
I think it would be a good idea for him to get out in the world and negotiate some real life situations with a landlord. Living in a rental situation probably would not be as easy as living with mom. I can think of all kinds of potential situations he would run into that will be problematic.
happystuff
4-2-21, 10:17am
There are many cultures in which multi-generational living is the norm. Do people there only reach full adulthood when the oldest generation dies?
South Korea is one such culture, but the family members are not staying together enabling each other, rather the grown children have friends, social lives, get married, get jobs, etc. The parents have the expectation that their children will become responsible, independent adults whether they remain at home or not. Some younger people these days are moving out on their own - again, many due to their jobs.
Edited to add: this is based on the South Koreans that I know personally and with whom I have had conversations about this specific topic.
Now that I have got a new car (iteration #2 is fine so far) I want to get back to the house. I have the Massachusetts holiday Patriots Day off and wanted to get something done that day.
DS shot down the following ideas because he is not ready or he does not want the neighbors to see me doing it and think he is a slacker:
Furnace cleaner in, electrician in, start disassembling the caving in ceiling myself, cut down a tree, remove boards around a structure that needs a backhoe to remove it.
So I made an appointment to go visit a kitchen showroom, so not on the property, and he still objects because it is an expensive thing to do and what if the furnace dies or something, what if any of the repair people he's not ready for yet find unexpected things that need repair, etc. But I am going anyways. I want to get things done!
All I want replaced are cabinets and countertops and possibly add a second sink for him. I am happy with the appliances, sink, flooring, ceiling, etc. Have any of you hired someone to do this type of renovation? How did you find the process? What did you pay? How long did it take?
I don't think I could do this myself. It would involve removing, measuring an opening for, and putting back in a sink and disposal among other things. And I lack the strength to hang cabinets up high on a wall.
iris lilies
4-12-21, 1:14pm
See, here is an inconvenient truth:
your house, your rules.
Define the boundaries. He is crossing any reasonable set of boundaries on the daily.
As an aside, be prepared dor horrific sticker shock from”kitchen showrooms.” But that is the least of your problems here.
All I want replaced are cabinets and countertops and possibly add a second sink for him. I am happy with the appliances, sink, flooring, ceiling, etc. Have any of you hired someone to do this type of renovation? How did you find the process? What did you pay? How long did it take?
I don't think I could do this myself. It would involve removing, measuring an opening for, and putting back in a sink and disposal among other things. And I lack the strength to hang cabinets up high on a wall.
Case #1: I did a kitchen re-face once. I had doors and drawer fronts removed and replaced, and I also asked them to remove a set of very unfunctional drawers and turn it into a pull-out garbage thing, and I replaced the old-fashioned 70s harvest gold wall oven/counter cooktop with a regular range, and I had them turn the former place where the wall oven was into a pantry with slidable shelves. Also replaced the countertops
It took 4 days once the materials were in and cost $9000.
Case #2 (MILs/BILs house): Removed/replaced all the cabinetry, and the appliances and the counters and laid new flooring. Took a couple of weeks--we hired handymen--two of them worked on it. We got bids from bigger guys: HomeDepot (where we got the cabinets) and a general contractor but we went with the little guy who was cheapest by far. I think it was $16,000 in total (without the flooring).
iris lilies
4-12-21, 2:23pm
Jeppy, there is such a range of kitchen cabinet prices that I don’t know anyone’s answers here will help you. If you walk in to a kitchen place they’re going to ask you what is your budget.
You may remember my experience of last fall when I went into a big fancy show room because I thought at the time “money is no object. “
When she quoted a possible $30,000-$40,000 for my 8 x 8 1/2 kitchen I thought that’s ridiculous. I’m not doing that.
I don’t know what the final cost will be for me, but it will not be $40,000.
Catherine, all new doors on the cabinets is an interesting idea. That is my biggest problem with the cabinets. The doors won't stay on. They have been screwed in too many times in the same spot. Some were poorly designed - too big a door to hang on a couple of hinges - should have been double doors. There are also drawers that don't slide in and out anymore. The countertop is nicked/gashed in various places. I have been in the house 24 years and not liked the kitchen that entire time, but it wasn't so bad when I moved in. It just gets worse with time and wear and tear.
IL, I plan to ask them to show me their lower price offerings and to bring in measurements. I do not need granite or anything fancy. I would think they can give me a ballpark and if it is too high I will tell them and if they cannot do better then I will shop around. I will not go into debt for this.
Catherine, all new doors on the cabinets is an interesting idea. That is my biggest problem with the cabinets. The doors won't stay on. They have been screwed in too many times in the same spot. Some were poorly designed - too big a door to hang on a couple of hinges - should have been double doors. There are also drawers that don't slide in and out anymore. The countertop is nicked/gashed in various places. I have been in the house 24 years and not liked the kitchen that entire time, but it wasn't so bad when I moved in. It just gets worse with time and wear and tear.
I did it because I just have an aversion to sending perfectly good things to the landfill. My 1970 cabinet boxes were solid wood. So I tried to save what I could. I think you would need to get a consultation from a refacing company because the one I worked with did a lot of customization. They could probably give you new drawers. They could probably putty up the holes in the cabinet frame. I don't know, but you could ask. They were open to all my ideas and they did a pretty good job. The refacing company also coordinated the countertop and they installed it.
I would not consider refacing if you are changing the footprint of the kitchen or if your cabinets are truly in bad shape, but otherwise, it might be worth talking to someone. OTOH, the price of $9000 was somewhat high considering that the actual labor is pretty minor--if you want to invest a few more thousand you have all new stuff. But that wasn't important to me.
One of the cabinets has an uneven shelf inside, the others are fine except for the doors. Thank you for the suggestion. I will keep refacing in mind.
Our Case 1: We refaced the cabinets in our kitchen. The layout was fine (except the kitchen could be bigger so we could have more cabinets; it's 10x15) and most of it was pretty functional; it was just dark mid-70s wood in a style that was very hard to clean. If I recall, aside from an hour or so measuring, the project took 2-1/2 days. The workers masked off the kitchen so dust didn't get all over. Doors and drawer fronts came off and were replaced (along with drawer boxes and all hardware) and the boxes were veneered. We took the opportunity to move a block of upper cabinets to another wall to open up the space. The cost was about $9,000. We've been happy with it.
I had replaced the countertop several years earlier with laminate (I don't like stone in the kitchen); the guy we hired figured out a way to do the job with one sheet of laminate and no seams, so I was very happy with the outcome. I chose a high-resolution laminate and one of the standard edges and that came to around $1,800. That job took half a day. Flooring is luxury vinyl tile; they had to remove the old sheet vinyl and put down a leveler to cover the older embossed sheet vinyl (in part why the previous floor failed). I think that job took a day and around $2,000.
Case #2: My mom's place (rental). Studs-level renovation. Old wood cabinets in crappy condition, there was no fridge and the stove was one of those 20" jobs that was one step up from using coal (but not much) (not a slam on 20" stoves btw but the nice ones cost money and this was not a nice one). Electrical and plumbing code issues that needed to be addressed. Floor was worn badly.
We went to IKEA for the cabinets. For the price, they're pretty well made and they come with a decent warranty and they've worn well. We got to draw the galley layout we wanted. The floor (real linoleum tile) came from IKEA, too. The preformed laminate countertops were stock items at Lowe's. A stove and refrigerator (no dishwasher) came from one of my favorite scratch-n-dent/overstock stores. Electrical and plumbing were hired out. I hired a handyman to build and install the cabinets and the countertop (plus a barely-used porcelain sink I got on craigslist). I installed the floor and painted the backsplash and walls. Out and back in for about $6,500 (12 years ago).
I really recommend IKEA. They sell appliances, too (mostly relabeled Whirlpool appliances) but I got better deals/different features at my store. And flooring. And sinks. imho it's all worth at least what you pay for it, though if you're not into DIY you have to add in the price of someone who will assemble for you. It can still work out cheaper than entry-level cabinets through a big-box store or kitchen shop.
iris lilies
4-12-21, 4:30pm
DH has installed a few Ikea kitchens and he thinks they are decent quality cabinets.
I’ll never forget that in the days before we had an IKEA here in town, one of my friends took her compact car, or maybe it was a sub compact? To Chicago and purchased her entire IKEA kitchen and stuffed it into her car. Those cabinets are fold down of course
Yeah, I haven't bought IKEA kitchen cabinets, but I'm a longtime fan of IKEA and have bought everything there from couches to to lamps to magnetic knife strips to curtains to dishtowels and more. If I had another kitchen to redo, I'd definitely look into IKEA.
My cabinets were an unappealing darker than I cared for wood and hard to clean so years ago I painted them to match one of the colors in the floor. The top cabinets are structurally fine so I am wondering if I can get plain unstained wood cabinets made for the bottom and paint them myself. Then I could also redo the paint where needed on the top cabinets. As paint gets scraped off over the years I touch it up but the paint thickens sitting around even though I try to keep the lid on and it gets gloppy. It also starts to look grubby around the handles, probably because I used satin finish.
The one issue I foresee is the hardware wouldn't match but I've replaced that myself in the past.
I am thinking refacing would not work for me because I have a big gap I want to fill in with a cabinet. When the dishwasher broke I removed it and never replaced it because I do not like dishwashers.
wondering if I can get plain unstained wood cabinets made for the bottom and paint them myself. Then I could also redo the paint where needed on the top cabinets.
A lot depends on whether the opening is a stock size. For a standard dishwasher, it should be 24". So you could look for a base cabinet that would fit there and provide a door (and door swing) that would fit into the kitchen. Since you're painting the cabinets, aim for a wood with a similar grain and it should be fine.
The one issue I foresee is the hardware wouldn't match but I've replaced that myself in the past.
You'd be surprised where you can find onesy-twosy hardware. I bought the cabinet hardware for my house on ebay (just happened to find something I liked in my price range). etsy might be a choice, too, depending on the age of what's up there now.
Or you can get a little creative and steal from some drawers/cabinet fronts so all the hardware under that countertop matches and the stuff that's a close-but-not-quite match can be on a door or drawer across the room. Or in another room (our old kitchen hardware also was used in the bathroom and the linen closet). We replaced the bathroom cabinet hardware (out of choice; we thought the original hardware was fugly) and had several available handles for elsewhere.
rosarugosa
4-13-21, 7:23am
Jeppy: I think it would be reasonable to book things like the furnace cleanout and then give your son advance notice, e.g. "they are coming to clean the furnace on 4/23, so you will want to do whatever you need to do to prepare before then." That gives some consideration to his needs but still allows you to move forward.
For some reason the kitchen photos are really blurry, but if it's any consolation, it does look like your kitchen is in much better shape than my kitchen. My kitchen is a total disaster, but I'm really hoping to make progress on it this year.
He has handled the last three furnace cleanings and he likes doing it. He feels he has developed a good relationship with the furnace cleaner and really wants to take care of this again. So I see his logic.
He has dialed back a couple requests - said he no longer wants his own sink because he really wants a shower and if I won't get that he doesn't want anything. That is fine by me as I have other priorities like the kitchen. He also explained how he thinks the power issue in his room was the old air conditioner exploding and not the circuit being overloaded (though I think they could be related) and where the electrician would need to go in his room to check on this he is very sensitive about it. So if his theory is correct and we don't have to add another electrical panel that would be good, though we still need the electrician out to restore power. I am tired of tripping over the power cord running up the stairs. His room is also very cold and we had gotten an estimate for a fan that would direct more heat upstairs but he was never ready for it to be installed. I wanted that dealt with by the furnace cleaning company but now he says he likes his room cold because it is better for his electronics. Another thing I don't have to worry about.
So I am shifting gears to the kitchen. He doesn't have much of a mess in there and so getting him to clean it up would not be so time consuming, and RR I do plan to tell him they are coming such and such a day for a measure, assuming their prices are not too high.
Outside there are things I would also like to tackle but am picking my battles for now.
And I do not have a good device for taking pictures.
You seem to be moving along quite nicely, accomodating but also MOVING ON! Good for you. I've found choosing my areas that I can do without anyone else having to be majorly involved is empowering.
I know some of you like Ikea but I am reading the book Having and Being Had and just read a section about all the broken Ikea furniture the author encountered. She sees it as epitomizing throwaway culture.
rosarugosa
4-14-21, 5:21am
I know some of you like Ikea but I am reading the book Having and Being Had and just read a section about all the broken Ikea furniture the author encountered. She sees it as epitomizing throwaway culture.
I've never been to Ikea, but I have heard that a lot of their stuff is pretty much disposable furniture. I've heard better things about their cabinetry though.
iris lilies
4-14-21, 8:24am
Yes, their cabinetry is decent.
Their hard pieces of furniture are mostly drek.
early morning
4-14-21, 10:55am
Well, we have a piece of their drek and it's wearing fine, lol. Jeppy, if for some reason you decide to dial back on the kitchen cabinets, could you consider rehanging the doors from the other side (opening the opposite direction, thus having "new" wood to screw the hinges into? I realize that wouldn't work in all kitchens but we were able to change few doors that way and keep the cabinet -which is a crappy 30s/40s set in unit - our house had no running water when it was built, and no kitchen cabinetry as we know it (no electric, either, but it did apparently have gas lighting and fireplaces). Anyway, I like the crappy old cabinet, so we put a counter top on it, replaced the pulls with white porcelain knobs (love those, although VERY inauthentic, lol) and it gets a new coat of paint when I can't stand it any longer. We had to rehang one of the doors upside down because the wood had split at a hinge. Can't tell it under the paint, though, and it no longer has to support a hinge, so it's all good. I know when we sell, whoever buys will tear out the whole kitchen, so I'm only concerned with what WE like, not resale. Honestly, your cabinets don't look that bad to me, although photos don't always do things justice, I know. Good luck whatever you decide!
One door I put in the basement because it kept falling off and then the basement got water it in and I had forgotten it was there. It got all ruined. I think I will see if they can do just the lower cabinets, those are the worst. I am sure to do both upper and lower would be way out of my budget, and even just the lower may be as well. I also have identified some custom cabinet makers that are not part of showrooms. I don't know if they would be cheaper or not, but I doubt my sizes are standard. One is a gap where a dishwasher was, so was not designed as a cabinet space.
My experience with ikea furniture is that some of it is pretty solid and some of it is dreck. The stuff that has been dreck has been the stuff that comes in a million pieces and requires assembly. Our former coffee table fell into this category. It had been $60, marked down to $14.95 when we bought it 15ish years ago. The first time I tried to move it I learned the hard way that the legs were not attached with enough durability to handle being dragged across the floor. We ended up using it, legless, until last fall by putting it on top of a couple of little Target drawer cubes. Our living room chairs, on the other hand, have proved to be incredibly sturdy. SO bought them about 20 years ago and they are still solid as a rock. And because they are upholstered with slip-on covers we've been able to buy replacement covers inexpensively when they were starting to look ragged due to attention from the cats.
ApatheticNoMore
4-14-21, 3:16pm
My experience with ikea furniture is that some of it is pretty solid and some of it is dreck.
right, like I have a VERY solid wooden kitchen table from them, so yea some of it is solid, others of it is pretty junky indeed (if it's made of plywood, no big surprise there), and I don't find their upholstered pieces comfortable. None of it, durable or not, is a status symbol though. So there is that.
I will probably still go for the kitchen estimate, but may not do anything. Last year I didn't go anywhere for vacation and was thinking this year would be the same, so may as well get some work on the house done, but it is widely expected that New Hampshire's governor will lift mask mandates and other restrictions later today, which would make going on vacation very appealing. Will see what he says at his news conference.
I will probably still go for the kitchen estimate, but may not do anything. Last year I didn't go anywhere for vacation and was thinking this year would be the same, so may as well get some work on the house done, but it is widely expected that New Hampshire's governor will lift mask mandates and other restrictions later today, which would make going on vacation very appealing. Will see what he says at his news conference.
Apparently he said, "wicked soon" but nothing specific, unfortunately, as we are going to NH at 3 pm to go to Lowes. Oh well. Soon, I hope.
Hey, Yppej, just read this:
Under the Moving Maine Forward plan, Maine will shift its COVID-19 travel policy by May 1, 2021 to automatically exempt all states, unless a state is otherwise determined by the Maine CDC as being high risk.
So maybe you can vacation in NH or Maine.
I could go to Maine but walking around with a mask on all day is not my idea of fun. I already requested a NH Travel Guide be mailed to me. I am ready to be footloose.
It sounds like NH will end mask mandate much sooner. Which makes sense, given the population density of New Hampshire.
NH has offered the vaccine to any resident who wants it regardless of age for a while now. Soon they will start offering it to people from out of state. So they are well positioned to roll back restrictions. I wish my state were as well run.
early morning
4-15-21, 4:08pm
If you like the look, fabric curtains as base unit cabinet "doors" could be quite inexpensive. I can't figure out how to insert a picture but there are lots online, if you google kitchen cabinet curtains or kitchen base unit curtains or something like that. Just a thought. You could cover the stuff in the cabinets AND go on vacation, lol.
I showed my son a couple things I want done. One cabinet door keeps falling off because there is empty air behind it. Putting in a solid piece of wood for it to screw into should solve that problem. Another place I want a piece of wood installed to block a view of a messy area visible since the dishwasher was removed. I had bought him a mitre saw last year so he should be able to take care of these issues once he gets through the backlog on his to do list. Then I might get just a new countertop. I like that the cabinets I have now are solid wood and very sturdy.
He ordered a dryer last night, so that is one thing done.
There is also an old ugly table that the microwave sits on that I could probably replace with something relatively inexpensive.
I am not into curtains but that is a good idea for those who like them.
The $2,000 I spent for kitchen resurfacing about 15 yrs ago (new doorfronts, drawerfronts, and painting) was the best $2,000 I ever spent. My old kitchen looked like A. Million. Bucks. I was so happy with the result - the carpenter made new fronts with MDF (an engineered wood), with hidden hinges and a cutout for fingers to open the doors, so no need for handles, and painted all an almond/putty color in semi-gloss finish. It never showed dirt. Now I am in my Dream Forever Home, and had the kitchen gutted for my Dream Forever Kitchen. And it's good, but I will say that the custom cabinetmaker, who told me I needed all wood cabinets, and most people chose matte finish instead of semi-gloss, and yes, I could have Shaker door fronts, certainly cost a lot of money. And I got everything I ever wanted. But the Shaker detail and matte white finish really show the dirt and dust (I'm not a very good housekeeper). And just so you know - I chose granite rather than Formica laminate because the cost of Formica with a rounded edge, rather than the straight laminate glue-on edges, was comparable to granite/quartz. And I really wanted the rounded edges (I think it's called bullnose). Anyway, if you don't hate the straight edges, modern Formica looks beautiful and is much much cheaper than quartz/granite. I would really encourage you to contact a carpenter with a good reputation to give you an estimate on refacing the door/drawerfronts if the cabinets are in pretty good shape. He could fix the busted drawers and crooked shelf. And put up an MDF facade to close up the gap you have. In my Forever Dream Kitchen, I asked for a cabinet with an electrical outlet in it, built to house the microwave. So I can shut the cabinet door on it, and it cuts down on visual clutter. Just to give you an idea, the custom cabinetmaker was real expensive, solid wood was expensive, quartz countertop was expensive. Even pricing new cabinets from the big box stores was way higher than having my old kitchen refaced, and wasn't near as high quality.
iris lilies
4-16-21, 12:19pm
Cutouts for fingers...best. Idea. Ever!
DH built our kitchen cabinets with that, and I ordered that from our Amish cabinet makers for my condo. The advantage is that there is no hardware to collect grease. The downside is that those cabinet fronts do get grimy, in our case because we’ve painted them ourselves, the paint does wear off. But only in a couple of cabinet doors, everything else is good.
Cutouts for fingers...best. Idea. Ever!
DH built our kitchen cabinets with that, and I ordered that from our Amish cabinet makers for my condo. The advantage is that there is no hardware to collect grease. The downside is that those cabinet fronts do get grimy, in our case because we’ve painted them ourselves, the paint does wear off. But only in a couple of cabinet doors, everything else is good.
Our cabinets are this way both in town and the cabin-which were all built by hubster. Love them. Ours are wood-not painted. No collection of grime or grease.
Teacher Terry
4-16-21, 12:52pm
In my first condo I had the refacing done with solid oak and it was beautiful. It cost 6k 22 years ago but they still look beautiful. I saw my old condo online for sale. It looked exactly the same.
Our neighbor's car was stolen earlier this week so this has kicked DS into high gear in the cameras, so that and the open blinds may be resolved sooner rather than later. Meantime I continue to save for other repairs. Kitchen work as many of you have noted is rewarding but not cheap. I may do day trips for vacation. Rhode Island has dropped the mask mandate outdoors so that would be another destination I could go to and enjoy myself. If I have no hotel costs I wouldn't dip deep into the repair fund.
I have been looking at houses for sale and found one that would be perfect for me a half hour from where I work. It is affordable housing and you don't have to be a first time home buyer, but ... I earn about $1500 too much per year to qualify.
Meanwhile my son is back to saying he will get his own place. He is now splitting his time between staying in the house when I am at work and staying in his car when I am around because he has a litany of complaints including:
- He was going to order light bulbs (a responsibility he insists is his because he does extensive research on them) and he didn't like that I requested different bulbs than we discussed a few years back - he sent me a long email accusing me of being a revisionist.
- He then blocked my phone number and my email so I went and knocked on his door because I had manure to be spread so I can put in the garden and he always wants to do heavy outdoor work. He said, "Please leave me alone" and I said, "Then don't get mad when I do things" and I spread the manure myself. A few days later he noticed and had a panic attack saying I was causing his anxiety and I didn't care about him.
-The lights were dimming and I asked him about a time frame for the electrician and he said I was harassing him on purpose because he cut off contact with me and I am being aggressive.
- He has been cleaning, at his methodical pace, and in the midst of working in the bathroom left such a big mess I couldn't get in the room, and so we got into an argument about that. The third time I asked him to clean it up I said something I shouldn't have, that he would never do that to a stranger, how can he do it to his own mother, what sort of son is he. Apparently he did not hear me the first two times because he had his fan on and would not open the door to hear me. He left me a note implying he is suicidal and saying he can't confide in me as I will call the police.
I continue to look for another home and would like to move if/when he does leave. There is a real estate company in the state, not the We Buy Ugly Houses people but one that is more reputable, that will buy your house as is and if they sell it for more down the road than they paid for it you get a cut of that.
If the market is such that I can't easily sell and buy elsewhere I will start fixing up this house and thank you all for your ideas on that.
ETA in his latest note he said if I do one more thing to hurt him (emotionally, I never hit him or anything) he will permanently cut off contact with me. So if I do something like call in the electrician it's game over. I feel blackmailed and trapped and he wrote he feels trapped because it can take a while to get housing. At age 18 he lived with my parents for a year and sent them a long letter after he moved out telling them how awful it was and saying he would rather be homeless than ever live with them again. In his latest missive he said I was worse than them.
I thought about trying again for counseling. (Last time the counselor did a no call no show.) But the eye doctor just told me this past week masks are required in medical settings indefinitely. If I go for counseling I know I will cry and you can't blow your nose when you're wearing a mask, and the mask will get all covered in tears and snot. The mask mandate is cruel and unusual punishment.
Teacher Terry
6-5-21, 12:53pm
You should go to counseling because you are being blackmailed and manipulated and mentally ill people can be very good at it. I lower my mask to blow my nose all the time so you could do that in a counseling session. You really need professional advice and support.
I have been looking at houses for sale and found one that would be perfect for me a half hour from where I work. It is affordable housing and you don't have to be a first time home buyer, but ... I earn about $1500 too much per year to qualify.
Meanwhile my son is back to saying he will get his own place. He is now splitting his time between staying in the house when I am at work and staying in his car when I am around because he has a litany of complaints including:
- He was going to order light bulbs (a responsibility he insists is his because he does extensive research on them) and he didn't like that I requested different bulbs than we discussed a few years back - he sent me a long email accusing me of being a revisionist.
- He then blocked my phone number and my email so I went and knocked on his door because I had manure to be spread so I can put in the garden and he always wants to do heavy outdoor work. He said, "Please leave me alone" and I said, "Then don't get mad when I do things" and I spread the manure myself. A few days later he noticed and had a panic attack saying I was causing his anxiety and I didn't care about him.
-The lights were dimming and I asked him about a time frame for the electrician and he said I was harassing him on purpose because he cut off contact with me and I am being aggressive.
- He has been cleaning, at his methodical pace, and in the midst of working in the bathroom left such a big mess I couldn't get in the room, and so we got into an argument about that. The third time I asked him to clean it up I said something I shouldn't have, that he would never do that to a stranger, how can he do it to his own mother, what sort of son is he. Apparently he did not hear me the first two times because he had his fan on and would not open the door to hear me. He left me a note implying he is suicidal and saying he can't confide in me as I will call the police.
I continue to look for another home and would like to move if/when he does leave. There is a real estate company in the state, not the We Buy Ugly Houses people but one that is more reputable, that will buy your house as is and if they sell it for more down the road than they paid for it you get a cut of that.
If the market is such that I can't easily sell and buy elsewhere I will start fixing up this house and thank you all for your ideas on that.
ETA in his latest note he said if I do one more thing to hurt him (emotionally, I never hit him or anything) he will permanently cut off contact with me. So if I do something like call in the electrician it's game over. I feel blackmailed and trapped and he wrote he feels trapped because it can take a while to get housing. At age 18 he lived with my parents for a year and sent them a long letter after he moved out telling them how awful it was and saying he would rather be homeless than ever live with them again. In his latest missive he said I was worse than them.
I thought about trying again for counseling. (Last time the counselor did a no call no show.) But the eye doctor just told me this past week masks are required in medical settings indefinitely. If I go for counseling I know I will cry and you can't blow your nose when you're wearing a mask, and the mask will get all covered in tears and snot. The mask mandate is cruel and unusual punishment.
I'm the same way, I couldn't do a counseling appointment with a mask, either, as they give me panic attacks.
Please find a way to get your son out of your house, or get a different house without your son. He is so seriously ill, and living with you seems to exacerbate his illness; he is not getting better, and you want him to get better, so he has to move out on his own or into a sheltered living situation. I just don't see anything else working for you guys.
Please get counseling--I called my EAP at work and had two sessions of grief counseling and it was telemed. She was a lousy counselor, but it still helped to talk to someone and get my thoughts in order.
ApatheticNoMore
6-5-21, 1:29pm
Geez, counseling has been online for a year now and still is. Get with the times. Although this is way easier if you have some privacy at home.
I feel I'm seeing a not great counselor but it's better than nothing. The real issue is it's very very hard to find a shrink with any availability especially if you work "I can do 3pm on a friday" - how many times have I heard that, well gee I'll just quit my job then so I can do therapy! >8) Even harder to find someone you would even want to have.
Your situation is untenable. I'd say you can't go on indefinitely like this, but you probably can--it will just take a terrible toll on your mental and physical health. You have my sympathy.
I am going to call the EAP on Monday at lunchtime. Last time they had trouble finding me someone near where I live so this time I am going to see if they have someone near where I work. I get out at 4 PM so it is still regular business hours then which may help. By the time I get home it is 5.
It is hard because I know my son loves me, but his anxiety leads him to try to control every little thing and by extension me. He feels badly being dependent as well, and is very generous with me (Mother's Day, birthday, Xmas) with what little income he has. But he is not happy, and I doubt moving will make him happy, but it is worth a shot. He latches onto anything with a whiff of negativity because it reinforces his low self-esteem while often discounting positive feedback as flattery. He compares himself to our neighbor around the same age who already owns his own home. So it is hard for him and me.
Teacher Terry
6-5-21, 8:38pm
I really feel for both of you. Such a difficult situation. Glad you are seeking counseling.
I really feel for both of you. Such a difficult situation. Glad you are seeking counseling.
Me too, so glad you will call EAP.
The EAP is working on finding me a counselor. It takes about 7 business days. Most providers only want to do remote sessions. The insurance company will not pay for telehealth (audio only) just Zoom. I do not have a device with a camera so that complicates things, but they will try.
Meanwhile concerned about the suicidal implications of my son's note (I can't confide in my own mother as you will call the police) I did just that. He is not involved in any criminal activity so all he could confide that would be reportable would be suicidal thoughts. I am not going to do nothing and then if he dies blame myself the rest of my life. They will try to reach him via his VOIP numbers in case he is parked somewhere with wifi and will also keep an eye out for his car.
7 or 8 years ago I had to do the missing person report thing and that time he eventually came home on his own.
I have been looking at houses for sale and found one that would be perfect for me a half hour from where I work. It is affordable housing and you don't have to be a first time home buyer, but ... I earn about $1500 too much per year to qualify.
Meanwhile my son is back to saying he will get his own place. He is now splitting his time between staying in the house when I am at work and staying in his car when I am around because he has a litany of complaints including:
- He was going to order light bulbs (a responsibility he insists is his because he does extensive research on them) and he didn't like that I requested different bulbs than we discussed a few years back - he sent me a long email accusing me of being a revisionist.
- He then blocked my phone number and my email so I went and knocked on his door because I had manure to be spread so I can put in the garden and he always wants to do heavy outdoor work. He said, "Please leave me alone" and I said, "Then don't get mad when I do things" and I spread the manure myself. A few days later he noticed and had a panic attack saying I was causing his anxiety and I didn't care about him.
-The lights were dimming and I asked him about a time frame for the electrician and he said I was harassing him on purpose because he cut off contact with me and I am being aggressive.
- He has been cleaning, at his methodical pace, and in the midst of working in the bathroom left such a big mess I couldn't get in the room, and so we got into an argument about that. The third time I asked him to clean it up I said something I shouldn't have, that he would never do that to a stranger, how can he do it to his own mother, what sort of son is he. Apparently he did not hear me the first two times because he had his fan on and would not open the door to hear me. He left me a note implying he is suicidal and saying he can't confide in me as I will call the police.
I continue to look for another home and would like to move if/when he does leave. There is a real estate company in the state, not the We Buy Ugly Houses people but one that is more reputable, that will buy your house as is and if they sell it for more down the road than they paid for it you get a cut of that.
If the market is such that I can't easily sell and buy elsewhere I will start fixing up this house and thank you all for your ideas on that.
ETA in his latest note he said if I do one more thing to hurt him (emotionally, I never hit him or anything) he will permanently cut off contact with me. So if I do something like call in the electrician it's game over. I feel blackmailed and trapped and he wrote he feels trapped because it can take a while to get housing. At age 18 he lived with my parents for a year and sent them a long letter after he moved out telling them how awful it was and saying he would rather be homeless than ever live with them again. In his latest missive he said I was worse than them.
I thought about trying again for counseling. (Last time the counselor did a no call no show.) But the eye doctor just told me this past week masks are required in medical settings indefinitely. If I go for counseling I know I will cry and you can't blow your nose when you're wearing a mask, and the mask will get all covered in tears and snot. The mask mandate is cruel and unusual punishment.
.... Most counselors are doing Telahealth /Zoom You can cry and blow your nose without having to wear a mask. And best of all... You can have a session anywhere you get wifi. I had a Telehealth appointment with my counselor and I was running late due to a car accident and traffic jam. Pulled into the nearest Mc Donalds and sat in my car in the parking lot and had my session . I even had a session in the parking lot of my horse trainers one time. Please get the help you need
Yes, my session was Zoom--well, not Zoom, but some medical product equivalent with more privacy than Zoom. I don't like telemed sessions either but hey, you do what you have to do. I am so glad you are being proactive--it's the right thing to do, Yppej, as you just have to speak out and explain to people what is going on. That is a really good thing, including calling the police.
He called my brother stating the police were texting him and he was well and saying I should cancel the missing persons report. They would not do that without speaking with him. Later my brother let me know that DS said he did speak with the police and passed his wellness check but is not coming home "yet".
Honestly, if I were you I would put the house up for sale now, and then rent for a while while I looked. Seriously.
I am starting to take baby steps to the way I want to live. Last night I closed the blinds. I used a laser pointer and got a look at the area where the ceiling is caving in. It has a walkway above it, but I know other areas are probably open to the roof.
Years ago when I had a boyfriend he didn't like he was looking into getting housing but when we broke up he stopped. I think this time he will go through with it.
He needs to move out, for your protection. I would work hard to keep him from moving back. And I know you love him, and he loves you. But this situation is not tenable, and you need to be protected from his mental illness, as does he.
Teacher Terry
6-8-21, 12:37pm
The hardest thing I ever did was change the locks when my son with a drug problem was living with me. He wouldn’t get help and was stealing from me. He was in his early 20’s. I was driving downtown one day and he was standing on a street corner. I am grateful we are no longer in the same city. Yes change the locks and reclaim your life by selling your house.
It is now over a week since DS has been gone. No one has heard from him since Monday when my brother was involved in the police wellness check on him. I am sure he is extra angry I filed a missing persons report.
I am hopeful if he is homeless that will help expedite housing for him. There is no evidence he has come by the house. I hope he has some meds with him. I do see a couple full prescription bottles laying around the house.
Meanwhile on the house front I recaulked the bathroom today. He is highly sensitive to sensory input and the smell always bothers him, so I figured now is a good time to do that. It looks much better.
iris lilies
6-12-21, 11:53am
Aw That’s got to be really hard for you not knowing where your son is, and not knowing if he is ok.
It is IL. Thank you for your sympathy.
Teacher Terry
6-12-21, 2:23pm
I really hope your son is seeking help with housing and his other issues. Not knowing is really tough.
I am so sorry you are going through this, Yppej, this must be really scary.
TY Tybee. I figure it is much harder for him, and wish I could go back in time and be more patient with him so he would still be here. At his age it is not unusual to leave home, but I wish he were pulled away by a relationship or a career and not pushed by unhappiness. It is sad he is choosing to be homeless. My brother told him he can't expect me to be perfect, but one of the characteristics of his illness is very rigid black and white thinking.
Some people just need an awful lot of space too. I read today that Kim Kardashian finally got tired of the distance and decided to divorce Kanye West. He is bipolar and insisted on living in another state than her, not due to career, but because he likes it that way.
iris lilies
6-12-21, 6:20pm
And you Jeppy cannot meet that level of perfection required by the black and white thinker. You have been as patient as he deserves. Not that he is a bad person! But his behavior is over the top, and enough is enough. This was a crises. It resulted in different behaviors.
pl ease PLEASE do not move toward restoring what is, to you, the status quo. That is not sustainable and it is not healthy living for either of you.
I know it's not sustainable long term because he doesn't like other people around so what happens when I retire and am home all day.
rosarugosa
6-13-21, 6:15am
I hope you hear from him soon and all is well.
TY RR. I am hoping he has calmed down enough when I go to work this week he comes by the house.
If he wants his own place fine but I would rather he not be homeless while waiting for housing, but being homeless can expedite it.
Also hope he is okay as there are people who attack the homeless.
DB came over and shaved the bottom of my bedroom door so it doesn't stick anymore. DS very rarely wants anyone to come over to the house because cleaning up his messes is a big challenge. So I took advantage of his absence to get that done. DB also tried nailing up the part of the ceiling that is coming down in one room but that made it worse. I told him I'll deal with it later. He also brought over one of those orange power cords for me to borrow because DS is still using ours to get power to his room. It's close to a year now and he has not been able to get his room ready for an electrician to come in. I don't have a key to the room so that will have to wait until either he returns and is ready or he moves out.
DS is back and noticed the door shaved though I cleaned up all the wood shavings. He left me a note that he and his counselor had come up with a plan (without any input from me). I heard from DB it involved writing notes to each other on a white board so he won't have to talk to me. But then he saw that I had gotten the door to my own bedroom shaved when he didn't want anyone in the house so he left me a note that this shows I don't care about him, just like when I replaced the broken hot water heater and he was not ready, and saying he is only here until he can get his own place and "I hereby consider our mother-son relationship to be over".
Meanwhile I got an email that my EAP finally found me a counselor. The person is nowhere near where I work (opposite side of the state) or where I live (over an hour away). This better be virtual because I already leave the house at 6:15 and don't get back until 5:00 and I can't add 3 plus hours to my day, and none of these places ever seem to do weekends.
At least I know DS is physically safe and able to shower etc.
iris lilies
6-17-21, 8:44pm
DS is back and noticed the door shaved though I cleaned up all the wood shavings. He left me a note that he and his counselor had come up with a plan (without any input from me). I heard from DB it involved writing notes to each other on a white board so he won't have to talk to me. But then he saw that I had gotten the door to my own bedroom shaved when he didn't want anyone in the house so he left me a note that this shows I don't care about him, just like when I replaced the broken hot water heater and he was not ready, and saying he is only here until he can get his own place and "I hereby consider our mother-son relationship to be over".
Meanwhile I got an email that my EAP finally found me a counselor. The person is nowhere near where I work (opposite side of the state) or where I live (over an hour away). This better be virtual because I already leave the house at 6:15 and don't get back until 5:00 and I can't add 3 plus hours to my day, and none of these places ever seem to do weekends.
At least I know DS is physically safe and able to shower etc.
If you are now accepting of this “new plan” to write notes to each other as well as letting your son dictate who comes into YOUR OWN FREEKIN’ HOUSE you have some serious work to do with a therapist.
Since you didn’t agree to the note writing game, you are under no obligation to play that game.
“When are you leaving?” would be my daily question to him. After six weeks I would give him a deadline to be out.
iris lilies
6-17-21, 9:15pm
Jeppy, I honestly do not understand why the irregular demands of your son seem like issues you need to accomodate or negotiate.
I guess it is because you have been accommodating his irrational dictates for so long, you have lost track of healthy freedom in living.
His expectations of you are off the rails.But he gets to have them, he can think what he thinks and feel what he feels.
YOU have to draw the boundary around the unhealthy things you will not do.He cannot do it, he is not capable.
rosarugosa
6-18-21, 7:01am
Jeppy, I honestly do not understand why the irregular demands of your son seem like issues you need to accomodate or negotiate.
I guess it is because you have been accommodating his irrational dictates for so long, you have lost track of healthy freedom in living.
His expectations of you are off the rails.But he gets to have them, he can think what he thinks and feel what he feels.
YOU have to draw the boundary around the unhealthy things you will not do.He cannot do it, he is not capable.
Well said, IL.
I agree with IL and Rosa here. I think you must come to terms with getting him out of your home, even if it means selling your home now in this favorable market and not taking him with you. Seriously, that would be what I would do right now.
And his counselor is not helping him, in my opinion. I would be fearful in this situation you are in, and that is no way to live. Please think of how you can change this situation--you are being abused, and that's not right, and you are the only one who can change this situation.
I am going to proceed with home repairs. He also said in his note that he releases me from all obligations to try to accommodate his anxiety or OCD because my actions show I don't care and he told me "You win". So he feels he lost. With this "release" in mind I left him a note that the weekend after this one I will start taking down the ceiling that is caving in. That gives him over a week to move his things. Previously he objected to this because it would get debris on his things. I also let him know I washed some curtains and can drape them over his things if he does not want to move them. So he has two options. Leaving the ceiling in a dangerous condition is not one of them.
Good for you Yppej for taking the steps to take control of YOUR life! You are NOT unreasonable to want a safe, well maintained house to live in.
At some point, he is going to have to live in a world that won't accommodate his anxiety/OCD, so he either needs to work harder on conquering those conditions (is the counselor really helping with that?) or find a sheltered living situation. At some level, he realizes this.
SteveinMN
6-18-21, 12:09pm
Good on ya, Yppej. I know you've put a lot of energy into accommodating your son's illness, but, at this point, his irrational behavior is endangering both of you (ceiling and other things) and your financial future (by not letting you fix up the home for sale while the market is good). You've given him his choices; if he does not like them, he can plan, with his counselor, to move someplace anyplace and attempt to live independently. He's in for a rude awakening if he believes anyone else will accommodate his mental illness as much as you have. It's tough, but you can't take care of him in all situations for all time.
And some day you'll be gone, and not there to care for him anymore, so this is just part of the regular mom planning, I think. He has to be able to function without you, that's just what moms have to do.
Teacher Terry
6-18-21, 2:33pm
Ypejji, you have been a really good mom but you got trapped in the insanity of trying to accommodate your son’s disability. When my drug addicted son was in his 20’s I was also trapped in insanity until my partner pointed it out. It’s a slippery slope. I am glad you are taking charge of your life.
rosarugosa
6-18-21, 4:26pm
I am going to proceed with home repairs. He also said in his note that he releases me from all obligations to try to accommodate his anxiety or OCD because my actions show I don't care and he told me "You win". So he feels he lost. With this "release" in mind I left him a note that the weekend after this one I will start taking down the ceiling that is caving in. That gives him over a week to move his things. Previously he objected to this because it would get debris on his things. I also let him know I washed some curtains and can drape them over his things if he does not want to move them. So he has two options. Leaving the ceiling in a dangerous condition is not one of them.
That sounds like a good plan, and you are still being considerate of him and his needs, whether he sees it or not.
The EAP told me the counseling would be tele due to the distance, then said the provider changed his mind and only wants to do in person sessions. I asked them to look in some adjacent states that are closer to where I work or live. They have tried 20 people so far. Demand greatly outstrips supply.
To make room for the shed a planter would need to come down. I removed the back of it and it will need a backhoe. So when I finish with the ceiling project I may tackle that, hiring someone. Although there are no underground lines near it I would rather not attempt it myself with a rented Kubota.
iris lilies
7-24-21, 4:28pm
To make room for the shed a planter would need to come down. I removed the back of it and it will need a backhoe. So when I finish with the ceiling project I may tackle that, hiring someone. Although there are no underground lines near it I would rather not attempt it myself with a rented Kubota.
What is the status of your son finding his own place?
What is the status of your son finding his own place?
He has not said anything to me. I am proceeding with my life largely as if he is not here. I leave him notes of what will be done but do not ask for permission. He has not responded to any of them. The one exception is I am not using the shower curtain because he bought it.
iris lilies
7-24-21, 6:30pm
He has not said anything to me. I am proceeding with my life largely as if he is not here. I leave him notes of what will be done but do not ask for permission. He has not responded to any of them. The one exception is I am not using the shower curtain because he bought it.
that is progress.
I suspect this is a temporary lull in the storm and he will get mad and exhibit overbearing behavior again. But in his favor he does visit visit a therapist so that is something, that he’s addressing his illness.
The lull is nice for the moment, but that is not enough for the long run.
You said in another thread you never thought you’d lose your relationship with him. I’m going to float the idea that you actually did know that the minute you drew a boundary and held to it he would stomp off.That is why you acquiesced to his unreasonable requests for so long. You knew he would dump you.
So enjoy the moments of peacefulness now. There will be more issues that will cause a ruckus. For me, there would be absolutely no buckets of urine and feces sitting around. That is not tenable. There would be no piles of his crap any place in my house other than his own room. That is not tenable. There would be no more dictating of how and when I take out the garbage, how the blinds are set, and there would be no more limits to how many times and when I can use my own bathroom. And etc.
Eventually he needs to go out into the world where he will have a very miserable time but he has a miserable time even at your house. He simply is going to be unhappy, that is what’s going on with his illness.
that is progress.
I suspect this is a temporary lull in the storm and he will get mad and exhibit overbearing behavior again. But in his favor he does visit visit a therapist so that is something that he’s addressing his illness.
The lull is nice for the moment, but that is not enough for the long run.
You said in another thread you never thought you’d lose your relationship with him. I’m going to flood an idea that you actually did know that the minute you drew a boundary and held to it he would stomp off.That is why you acquiesced to his unreasonable request for so long.
In his final note he wrote that I don't need to accommodate him anymore because I don't care and have to have my own way. He said, "I give up. You win."
So I do not anticipate him being overbearing.
iris lilies
7-24-21, 6:37pm
In his final note he wrote that I don't need to accommodate him anymore because I don't care and have to have my own way. He said, "I give up. You win."
So I do not anticipate him being overbearing.
Well then he gives up easily, good for him. I don’t think it’s gonna be that easy. But if so, why the hell did you take so long to draw that boundary? No answer necessary just a rhetorical question.
"I suspect this is a temporary lull in the storm and he will get mad and exhibit overbearing behavior again. But in his favor he does visit visit a therapist so that is something, that he’s addressing his illness."
Is the therapist helping him make any sort of progress? Does he have assignments?
I suspect he knows at some level that it's time for him to fledge, which is fueling his anger and discomfort.
I do not know who his therapist is and even if I did could not discuss him with her due to confidentiality laws. I am confident he does in fact go for therapy and he also takes medication.
I left DS a note today that next after the ceiling will be the shed if he still wants it, and he has to let me know by the end of the week or I will proceed to another project instead. I also wrote that while he has said we no longer have a parent/child but a landlady/tenant relationship I do not accept that characterization and I will not be plowing/shoveling to get his car out as a lessor might for a lessee.
I came home to no response.
iris lilies
7-28-21, 1:03am
I left DS a note today that next after the ceiling will be the shed if he still wants it, and he has to let me know by the end of the week or I will proceed to another project instead. I also wrote that while he has said we no longer have a parent/child but a landlady/tenant relationship I do not accept that characterization and I will not be plowing/shoveling to get his car out as a lessor might for a lessee.
I came home to no response.
I don’t understand what this means. I’m reading it as you plan to build a shed to keep your son’s car out of the snow. Is that right? It’s confusing because I don’t see how that keeps anyone from shoveling a car out of a driveway, but maybe I don’t understand.
He has terrible social anxiety and wants to minimize his time outdoors where people can see him shoveling so he used his $1200 stimulus and bought a snowblower. So when the ground thaws we have to get a shed to put it in since a device with gas cannot be in the house, plus the house has no ramp to move it down. We do not have a garage. He will not let me shovel because he says it makes him look bad to the neighbors
The shed would be for a snowblower but I would also put gardening tools in it.
He no longer does anything since he cut me off, despite what the neighbors might think, so I expect to shovel myself out this winter but I'm not shoveling behind or around his car.
The electrician is scheduled to come tomorrow. I am getting anxious knowing DS will be anxious. I found this article that does a good job of describing his mindset:
https://bornwithoutmarbles.com/2016/10/03/why-it-can-be-scary-having-people-in-the-house-when-you-have-ocd/
iris lilies
8-22-21, 11:02pm
The electrician is scheduled to come tomorrow. I am getting anxious knowing DS will be anxious. I found this article that does a good job of describing his mindset:
https://bornwithoutmarbles.com/2016/10/03/why-it-can-be-scary-having-people-in-the-house-when-you-have-ocd/
Yes that does give Insight into how people like your son with OCD and anxiety feel.
GeorgeParker
8-23-21, 2:40am
The electrician is scheduled to come tomorrow. I am getting anxious knowing DS will be anxious. I found this article that does a good job of describing his mindset: https://bornwithoutmarbles.com/2016/10/03/why-it-can-be-scary-having-people-in-the-house-when-you-have-ocd/Yes, that is an excellent blog. It's good to see mental and emotional problems being written about by someone who actually has them and is able to express what they experience in an articulate and sometimes humorous way. It's well worth reading earlier and later entries in that blog, whether you have issues yourself or simply want to understand someone who does better.
Teacher Terry
8-23-21, 11:30am
Reading that article could be very helpful for people that don’t understand the issues.
catherine
8-24-21, 12:34pm
The electrician is scheduled to come tomorrow. I am getting anxious knowing DS will be anxious. I found this article that does a good job of describing his mindset:
https://bornwithoutmarbles.com/2016/10/03/why-it-can-be-scary-having-people-in-the-house-when-you-have-ocd/
This is interesting and valuable in order to "get inside the mind" of someone with OCD. It's always easier to adapt to behavior when you can understand it better. It's probably not easy for you, Jeppy, but being "with" him in mind and spirit I'm sure makes it easier.
Today I came home and all sorts of furniture was out of place and I was concerned. Through an intermediary I learned that DS was testing all the electric outlets and labelling them on the circuit breaker box. This was something he told me back when he still spoke to me he felt was necessary before an electrician came out. So I am cautiously optimistic that in the near future he will be ready for an electrician to come in and restore power to his room. That is the lowest hanging fruit if I ever sell the house. Other things that would make it more saleable such as a kitchen remodel or new furnace would be pricey.
Teacher Terry
2-3-22, 10:25pm
That’s good news!
Sounds like progress, hopefully.
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