1950's life for women? Still prevalent today? [Archive]

razz

1-26-21, 10:38am

From today's CBC:https://www.cbc.ca/life/backintimefordinner/crazy-things-we-told-housewives-in-the-1950s-1.4683987

Sometimes, looking back helps to explain some viewpoints that we have held unknowingly. I am not sure that this article is accurate in its depiction of a woman's life and expectation but it has some points that I remember hearing/learning about. I didn't follow it though but became fiercely independent in my freedom to think and do for myself.

Is some of this view of women, men and their role expectations still ongoing today? No goal for this thread but a different discussion topic.

"Make it all look effortless
Not only did the women of the 1950s have to make exciting meals, ensure their children are well behaved without disciplining them excessively, keep their home smelling lemon fresh and always look appealing for their husbands, they had to make it all look easy. But of course, it wasn't.

To help keep up the illusion that this all came naturally, some women turned to barbiturates—a class of drugs previously associated with soldiers in World War II, now being prescribed as "mother's little helper." Medical columnists in magazines like Cosmopolitain and Ladies Home Journal told women that sedative drugs like Milltown and Valium were the cure for what ailed them. Stressed? Anxious? "Frigid?" This class of tranquilizers could fix it all."

Teacher Terry

1-26-21, 11:02am

Plus with women in general not in the work force once the kids went to school they had to be bored out of their minds. Ugh!

iris lilies

1-26-21, 11:43am

I often feel like an outlier in these discussions. I am 66 years old and my mother worked. Granted, she worked in a traditionally female occupation (teacher) but she worked. Most of my aunts worked, the younger ones anyway. It was never the expectation of my parents that I marry to be taken care of. My mother always said “ you need to be able to take care of yourself financially. “

My dad’s side of the family was extremely influential in my life. My peer group of cousins did not reproduce. It is weird when I count up the number of my siblings and cousin/friends—10 of us, and only 2 had children.

But we are not trail blazing leaders in society. We are just regular shlubs, some of whom completed college, some who did not. I think we are very independent minded but not intellectually/academically/entrepreneurially minded.

But the whole business about women staying home in their child raising years is true for non-farm people, but with people in a farm background the mom works. The mom does farm type work. Sometimes she does the books. Sometimes she does small animal care, light chores, certainly she has a big garden to feed the family, and etc. Being from rural Iowa, Staying “home “means lots of chores.

JaneV2.0

1-26-21, 11:58am

For the most part, women in my extended family didn't work outside of the home. One of my aunts taught in a one-room schoolhouse until she had children, but that was about it. And as much as I don't enjoy work for work's sake, I never, ever wanted to be a housewife. Or, for that matter, work in one of the traditional "helper" jobs that were available to women back then. Now, the possibilities have expanded exponentially. As I've often said, I was born too soon--but I still managed to find a niche that suited me, in the end.

Teacher Terry

1-26-21, 12:22pm

My mom went to work when I turned 12 and was old enough to be home alone after school until my dad got home. She worked second shift.

catherine

1-26-21, 12:26pm

iris lilies

1-26-21, 12:40pm

razz, the link comes up with an article about pub closures... ?

With regard to women in the 50s, it's interesting. I grew up in a Connecticut suburb that was built post-WWII, and all the families were similar in that dads worked and moms stayed home. I don't think I had one friend with a mom on the career track. Yes--the pressure to be Donna Reed or Mrs. Cleaver was strong. And I know that barbiturate use was a tool for beating the tedium in some cases. My mother had a friend who OD'd and died on them.

My mother was the neighborhood black sheep because she divorced and then got a job and then remarried because she couldn't get a job that supported us. It was tough for her.

My DH is super nostalgic about the 50s, when all men had their personal maids. A friend of mine (female) posted a FB meme that said, "All I want to do is return to the way things used to be." And my response to that is, Hell, no!

That was Betty Friedan’s mileau, the whole world of suburban moms staying home and being bored out of their minds and taking drugs. She of course wrote the first volume in the second wave of feminism called The Feminine Mystique. Because Betty with her Ivy League education was bored, everyone must be bored. Okey-doke.

As usual, I would like to invite the East Coast elites to come out here to flyover country where things are real.

iris lilies

1-26-21, 1:04pm

Now that I am retired and fairly lazy, and DH continues to work at manual labor for at least 4 hours a day, I make his lunch and serve it to him each day. It is funny because I feel so Suzy homemaker each time I take his plate to him. Back in the days when I worked, I only made dinner, he was on his own for breakfast and lunch.

ours is now the most 1950’s arrangement we have had, ever.

early morning

1-26-21, 1:25pm

I would like to invite the East Coast elites to come out here to flyover country where things are real It was different, at least in the country. I was born in 1956. My mom was a housewife but to say she didn't work would be untrue. We didn't have a farm, but lived on a corner of my grandparent's farm that they gave my folks. In the late 40s, Mom and Dad build their own house - that does not mean they HAD it built, they did everything except dig the basement out, and they helped build the forms for the foundation/basement. They built with with mostly second-hand materials they got from tearing down an old store building they bought for that purpose. We always had a huge garden, and everyone helped with my grandfather's butchering. Almost all food was either home grown or raised by grandparents. Dad did all household repairs, took care of the yard and fruit trees, and did a lot of the gardening. Mom canned everthing she could get her hands on. She also took in washing and ironing, and cleaned houses for several local families. Many of our neighbors were much the same. It never occurred to us that working from home, as a housewife, would be boring, or anything besides hard work! I was suprised to find that mothers of many of my school friends complained about boredom AND being overworked keeping new houses on small lots with no garden, and to be honest, I thought they were lazy and very whiny. I didn't see much drug use, but there were some serious alcohol issues. As an adult, I can sure see how terrible that sort of suburban life could be. My MIL retreated into her own fantasy world to escape the tedium and relentless demands of 5 small boys and a traveling husband. She did not drive, and would not have had a car in any case. She was so artistic and so isolated, and I really wish I could have meet her earlier, before life beat her down so badly. I miss her as much as I do my own parents.

catherine

1-26-21, 1:29pm

That was Betty Friedan’s mileau, the whole world of suburban moms staying home and being bored out of their minds and taking drugs. She of course wrote the first volume in the second wave of feminism called The Feminine Mystique. Because Betty with her Ivy League education was bored, everyone must be bored. Okey-doke.

As usual, I would like to invite the East Coast elites to come out here to flyover country where things are real.

It's not a liberal elite thing. I did read the Feminine Mystique, and it was fine and I understand your point, but she definitely hit a nerve, and I don't think all those nerves were on the East Coast.

So, what happened in flyover country if someone didn't fall into the SAHM mold? If they got divorced like my mother? Or widowed like my MIL? What resources were available to them. Weren't they also subject to the same sexist laws, like not being able to get a credit card in their own names? The reality is that the one-size-fits-all-women social construct of the 50s didn't fit all, and I think that's true no matter where you lived.

GeorgeParker

1-26-21, 1:34pm

I think the extent to which stay-at-home moms in the 1950s were expected to be perfect homemakers and mothers is greatly exaggerated because people who weren't actually there nostalgically believe that the American mom image you see in 1950s TV reflected reality.

Very little on 1950s TV reflected reality. Instead it reflected what people wanted to believe. Show people an ideal life, and they'll tune in every week to get another dose of that fantasy (and hopefully they'll also buy your sponsor's products.) Show people a world that is better or worse than their real world, and they'll either enjoy the fantasy, or take comfort in the fact that their life is better than that TV character, or take inspiration from the fiction that some fictional TV character manages to keep struggling onward in spite of whatever befalls them.

I was born in 1949 and know the reality of what blue-collar life was like then compared to the TV image of typical American families. And as far as stay-at-home moms getting bored while their kids were in school and taking drugs because of it: Baloney! While the kids were in school was great because mom could do laundry, clean, and do all the other housework without having anyone underfoot and without kids constantly demanding attention from mommy. Mom could even sit and watch a game show or soap opera while shelling beans if they wanted to without being interrupted. A wonderful ideal life? Not hardly. But it wasn't the life depicted on TV or the one derided by Betty Friedan either.

Teacher Terry

1-26-21, 1:37pm

Catherine, I grew up in the Midwest and few women worked and if they did it was once the kids were older. Kids had to go home from school for lunch unless you were bused in. My mom paid a friend’s mom to feed me lunch. One friend had a divorced mom and she was a nurse. Housework was more work back then without so many labor saving devices.

catherine

1-26-21, 1:46pm

I was born in 1949 and know the reality of what blue-collar life was like then compared to the TV image of typical American families. And as far as stay-at-home moms getting bored while their kids were in school and taking drugs because of it: Baloney! While the kids were in school was great because mom could do laundry, clean, and do all the other housework without having anyone underfoot and without kids constantly demanding attention from mommy. Mom could even sit and watch a game show or soap opera while shelling beans if they wanted to without being interrupted. A wonderful ideal life? Not hardly. But it wasn't the life depicted on TV or the one derided by Betty Friedan either.

I was born in 1952, so I know my reality, which may not match your reality. The reality was that options for women who desired a different kind of marriage and motherhood were limited, both socially and even legally. And honestly, your bias is inherently driven by your gender. Oh, wow! Women get to have a few minutes of quiet during the day to put their feet up and watch The Price is Right while shell beans! Yippee!! Of course people weren't all like the Cleavers, but that was certainly the ideal society held up.

I was a SAHM for a few years and then finances wound up forcing me into the workforce, but that was in the 70s, and even so, I couldn't get a job that men had without learning how to type first. I loved being home with my four kids, and I have enjoyed my working life, too. It was nice to have options. My mother didn't. Her choice was make minimum wage in a diner or remarry if she wanted to be able to provide for her kids.

ApatheticNoMore

1-26-21, 2:03pm

Oh, wow! Women get to have a few minutes of quiet during the day to put their feet up and watch The Price is Right while shell beans! Yippee!!

do people think most jobs are more exciting than this?

Of course jobs provide money, there is that.

I was a SAHM for a few years and then finances wound up forcing me into the workforce, but that was in the 70s, and even so, I couldn't get a job that men had without learning how to type first.

my mom was an engineer then, there was some gender discrimination, but it didn't really preclude one from doing a job. But she did know how to type. Does anyone think it isn't better to know how to type for most office jobs now? Duh obviously it is, hunt and peck has it's limits.

I basically think there IS kind of a one size fits all model for women now, which is: BE SUPERWOMAN: work 40 or more hours (and some workplaces will push for more) and never complain about any of it and earn enough to take care of yourself - oh and remember lifelong education to keep skills current - can't just rest on current knowledge but have to keep learning stuff on your own time, raise kids and do a good job of it, maintain a marriage, be fit and healthy and look appealing - exercise and eat well, maintain friendships, etc.. I knew I never had it in me to be superwoman, coming home and curling up in a ball just from a fraction of that, and always wondered how anyone did, so ...

catherine

1-26-21, 2:26pm

I basically think there IS kind of a one size fits all model for women now, which is: BE SUPERWOMAN: work 40 or more hours (and some workplaces will push for more) and never complain about any of it and earn enough to take care of yourself - oh and remember lifelong education to keep skills current - can't just rest on current knowledge but have to keep learning stuff on your own time, raise kids and do a good job of it, maintain a marriage, be fit and healthy and look appealing - exercise and eat well, maintain friendships, etc.. I knew I never had it in me to be superwoman, coming home and curling up in a ball just from a fraction of that, and always wondered how anyone did, so ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_kzJ-f5C9U

Terrible commercial.

JaneV2.0

1-26-21, 2:26pm

"Of course jobs provide money, there is that."

That was certainly the salient point for me. Really, the only point.

My mother did the housewifey things well that she liked to do (decorate, refinish furniture, garden, craft...) while giving the rest of it desultory attention. Her mother had live-in help, and I have a feeling her mother (my great grandmother) was about as enthusiastic about housekeeping as the rest of us, since she suffered from mental illness eventually requiring institutionalization. I don't come from a long line of happy housekeepers, that's for sure.

I've always wanted--needed--my own money, and independence.

razz

1-26-21, 2:30pm

Catherine, thanks for the heads up about the link which I corrected.

GP, many families didn't have a TV in the 50s in my rural life so fantasies, if any, were that certain amenities actually existed and didn't. When TVs did arrive the shows available were very limited. I am a few years older than you and the only options given to me in my rural high school were to teach, nurse or be a secretary. I wanted to be a lawyer so badly so completed the five-year-academic program with the examination provincially (state-wide) issued determining your final marks and graduation. I did well but there was no money for post-secondary. I didn't want to be a nurse so got a clerical job in the city.

I was as ill-prepared as any country mouse for urban living but fortunately for me, I had a supervisor and his manager who gave me a really good talking to telling me that I would never lose my job but would never be promoted as they knew that I could be and do so much more. with my life Those two dear men were way ahead of their time. As a result, I did go to university and worked for over 36 years in my field taking time out to have our kids.

Reality for women in the 1970's was I could not borrow money in my name, only with DH's co-signature but I was liable for all his debts; I could not be considered for any apprenticeship as I might get pregnant and the training wasted; I could not obtain a tubal ligation without DH's signature and approval but found a husband and wife obstetrical team who performed them without requiring his approval. (DH was fully supportive but annoyed that women who lived with the consequences of any pregnancy could not control their bodies, again, he was way ahead of his time),... these were just a few of the limitations for women.

Looking back, one just accepted the limitations because that is the way it was for every one else.

iris lilies

1-26-21, 2:39pm

It's not a liberal elite thing. I did read the Feminine Mystique, and it was fine and I understand your point, but she definitely hit a nerve, and I don't think all those nerves were on the East Coast.

So, what happened in flyover country if someone didn't fall into the SAHM mold? If they got divorced like my mother? Or widowed like my MIL? What resources were available to them. Weren't they also subject to the same sexist laws, like not being able to get a credit card in their own names? The reality is that the one-size-fits-all-women social construct of the 50s didn't fit all, and I think that's true no matter where you lived.

My great grandmother kicked her drunkard husband to the curb and started her own business. There are newspaper reports of her when you Google her name how she was a driver in the Des Moines’s women’s business Association. That would’ve been pre-World War II. I don’t know how she got credit, beats me.

certainly I am generalizing, and I’m sure there are plenty of suburban moms in flyover country who found themselves wondering what to do during the day. But I don’t know, running around taking care of kids in a household seems to be pretty time-consuming to me in today’s world so in the 50s it would’ve been even more so. In my upscale city neighborhood there’s a strong contingent of stay at her moms.Well I’m sure most of the moms work, I am plugged into the local moms group which tends to be a stay at home moms they have the most strident invoices.

ApatheticNoMore

1-26-21, 3:06pm

My grandmother had a law degree, this was pre 1950s. But she never did practice as she only went in to law to work in her brother's law business and her brother died young and unexpectedly (so you can call that sexism if you want, I have no idea if she ever even wanted to practice law outside the context of her brother's business though! It may not even have been particularly appealing otherwise, as she got the degree for that reason, so shrug who knows what would have happened). She not only care took kids but older relatives (inherited a free house that way, not a bad deal IMO). Women are still expected to do all that of course and work long hours.

Alan

1-26-21, 3:44pm

I've never particularly bought into the belief that women were somehow second class citizens, neither now or throughout history. In my mind, the two sexes simply had different roles to play in life due primarily to biology and societal norms brought about by those biological roles. Of course, those societal norms changed with the advent of safe, affordable and reliable birth control. That's when my mother stopped having babies and then got her first outside the home job as soon as my youngest brother was safely in school.

In my world view societal victims of gender, at least in the developed world, are rare. :)

GeorgeParker

1-26-21, 4:34pm

I was born in 1952, so I know my reality, which may not match your reality. The reality was that options for women who desired a different kind of marriage and motherhood were limited, both socially and even legally.I'm an only child. My father left before I was born and I never met him. My mother and I lived with my grandparents in a pre-WWII house that was nice enough but nothing like the houses you saw on TV. It had three small gas radiant space heaters and you had to leave the bathroom door ajar while taking a bath because that was the only way to keep it warm in there. My mother and grandfather both worked and as a child I had plenty of opportunity to observe my grandmother doing all the things that have to be done to keep a 4-person household functioning. She loved her soap operas and she often had a lap full of beans that she was shelling or snapping into pieces as she watched them. So, yes, my reality was different from your reality, just as a lot of people grew up with a reality that was different from both of us.

And honestly, your bias is inherently driven by your gender. Oh, wow! Women get to have a few minutes of quiet during the day to put their feet up and watch The Price is Right while shell beans! Yippee!!As I said above, that was reality. Having a chance to sit down for a while and watch TV during the day was a welcome break from housework, and it was often accompanied by some form of light housework like snapping beans. So I was being a little tongue-in-cheek when I wrote that, but not completely.

Of course people weren't all like the Cleavers, but that was certainly the ideal society held up.Exactly! What we saw on TV in the 1950s was an idealized stereotype fantasy of upper-middle-class life or mid-west-farm life or gritty urban life. It wasn't reality and didn't even try to be. It just wanted to look like what people thought life might be like for other people who weren't like them.

Teacher Terry

1-26-21, 4:46pm

Women were definitely second class citizens whether Alan believes it or not. IL many women in the 50’s didn’t drive and even if they did they weren’t running their kids around like people do today to activities. Kids walked to neighborhood activities. Parents today are over scheduling their kids and think they all are going to be athletes, etc.

GeorgeParker

1-26-21, 4:54pm

GP.... I am a few years older than you and the only options given to me in my rural high school were to teach, nurse or be a secretary.....
Your remarks were specifically directed to me, but have nothing to do with anything I've said or any position I've taken.

As the child of a unmarried working mother I'm very much aware of the legal and social limitations that existed in the 1950s and long afterward. I'm also aware that my mother succeeded in an industry that was male dominated by being the best employee for every job she ever had, and that she was always underpaid and under promoted in spite of that. So don't lecture me about how tough it was for women back then. I already know all about it and I have never said anything to the contrary.

herbgeek

1-26-21, 4:56pm

In my world view societal victims of gender, at least in the developed world, are rare.

You are lucky to have that experience. I experienced many incidences of gender discrimination since high school. I am also stubborn and persistent, so I got where I was headed mostly anyways. In high school (this was the late 70's) my guidance counselor told me that women are not allowed to be engineers, and that I should be an English teacher instead. Yeah...no.

I've had bosses explain that I got a smaller raise despite an outstanding review, because my male colleague "had a family to support".

I've been in situations, where by all objective measures, I earned a promotion before my male counterpart, but I didn't get it. I had one boss who made me wait an extra year, even though he told me that I was well qualified, and my male colleague wasn't even looking for/expecting the promotion that I was working towards.

I've been in work situations where the vendor assumed I was the buyer, and my male colleague the engineer, but that was kinda fun because the client didn't realize that /I/ was the one making the decision, and guess what, I didn't select his firm but another qualified firm where the sexism was not quite as open.

My husband, who by all accounts isn't sexist (ie he puts up with ME) doesn't see sexism either, even though he's been privy to 35+ years of my dinnertime stories of what happened at work each day.

catherine

1-26-21, 5:02pm

I'm an only child. My father left before I was born and I never met him. My mother and I lived with my grandparents in a pre-WWII house that was nice enough but nothing like the houses you saw on TV. It had three small gas radiant space heaters and you had to leave the bathroom door ajar while taking a bath because that was the only way to keep it warm in there. My mother and grandfather both worked and as a child I had plenty of opportunity to observe my grandmother doing all the things that have to be done to keep a 4-person household functioning. She loved her soap operas and she often had a lap full of beans that she was shelling or snapping into pieces as she watched them. So, yes, my reality was different from your reality, just as a lot of people grew up with a reality that was different from both of us.

As I said above, that was reality. Having a chance to sit down for a while and watch TV during the day was a welcome break from housework, and it was often accompanied by some form of light housework like snapping beans. So I was being a little tongue-in-cheek when I wrote that, but not completely.

Exactly! What we saw on TV in the 1950s was an idealized stereotype fantasy of upper-middle-class life or mid-west-farm life or gritty urban life. It wasn't reality and didn't even try to be. It just wanted to look like what people thought life might be like for who weren't like them.

So your mother was also left in the lurch like mine was... maybe our realities aren't that far apart, but our perspectives and how they shaped our worldview may be different. Did your mother enjoy her job? Did she ever have aspirations for a different life?

My MIL worked in Macy's as a clerk for many, many years. She was bright and had a ton of grit, but she thought pursuing a career would somehow take something away from the family. In her late 60s she was able to potentiate her passion--as a Vice President for the Retail, Wholesale Department Store Workers Union. She happily trudged into Herald Square every day, taking two subways each way, well into her 70s to do this job she belatedly discovered. Two weeks before she died she told me that she thought she lived a wasted life because she never pursued her passion.

Being a mother is a very high calling and I mean that with no patronizing whatsoever, and the mommy wars continue today in terms of the "right" way to raise a child. But many women in the 50s had dreams deferred because it wasn't easy to pursue them. And with all due respect, GP, I believe men romanticize the picture of the 50s women. I can't say I blame you.

And Alan, yes, today women can't cry victim as loudly as they used to, thanks to the Betty Friedans and the Gloria Steinems and all the women who fought to elevate the rights and opportunities of all women

GP, Alan, and IL, it sounds like you had awesome mothers and grandmothers and I applaud them for their work, grit and sacrifice. God only knows what they could have done without the social and legal barriers that existed back then.

frugal-one

1-26-21, 5:13pm

[QUOTE=herbgeek;373865]You are lucky to have that experience. I experienced many incidences of gender discrimination since high school. I am also stubborn and persistent, so I got where I was headed mostly anyways. In high school (this was the late 70's) my guidance counselor told me that women are not allowed to be engineers, and that I should be an English teacher instead. Yeah...no.

I've had bosses explain that I got a smaller raise despite an outstanding review, because my male colleague "had a family to support".

---------

My last position which ended 10 years ago... a guy I was investigating told me I had no business working and was taking a job away from a man (unwise move). Another looked at me and obviously thought I didn't know what I was doing since I was in a male dominated occupation. I let him think what he wanted and later he actually told me (while turning very pale) "oh, you do know what you are doing".

In the late 70s my FIL died and the assets from the marriage, according to law, were to be split between the widow and children. Needless to say, my DH signed everything over to his mother. They worked all those years and she was supposed to give him half. That would not have been the case if FIL had died first.

If I thought about it.. I could relate many more instances. Woman were definitely considered "second class citizens".

bae

1-26-21, 5:25pm

My 24 year old daughter is still experiencing discrimination in the workplace.

It may be easier to not notice this stuff if you are male.

jp1

1-26-21, 5:31pm

I was born in 67 and didn't know any woman that worked fulltime until I got to Junior High School in 1980. I had a couple of aunts that had part time secretarial jobs after their kids had grown up, and an aunt who lived on a farm with her husband and raised 8 kids (yes, she worked on the farm, but so did all the kids. I can remember stories like when an older cousin taught her younger sister (7 or 8 at the time) how to drive so that she wouldn't need to walk 30 minutes to go get the tractor from the other end of the farm but instead drive out and have her sister drive the truck back to the house) but my mom and those of all my friends in our neighborhood were SAHM's. Some, like my mom, seemed reasonably happy in that role. Some, like my friend J's mom, started drinking at noon, wasting the rest of the day lying on the couch, watching bad tv and being generally miserable. This wasn't wacky coastal elite world, but in an urban, middle class, single family home, neighborhood in flyover country. In my elementary school there were always lots of non-job-holding mothers around to help out with school events, chaperoning field trips, assisting with tutoring sessions or grading papers for teachers, etc. My mom liked being one of those parents, helping out regularly, because it got her out of the house, and also because it enabled her to keep close tabs on what was going on to make sure that my sister and I were getting the best possible education.

My mom wouldn't have worked unless my parents needed the money because, like Alan, my parents felt that the division of family labor was logical and best for the kids. But after her kids were grown Mom was happy that my sister was able to have a successful, enjoyable career that she never imagined for herself.

JaneV2.0

1-26-21, 5:31pm

My 24 year old daughter is still experiencing discrimination in the workplace.

It may be easier to not notice this stuff if you are male.

Just what I was thinking. Similar to not being able to see police brutality against minorities when you aren't one.

ApatheticNoMore

1-26-21, 5:32pm

My MIL worked in Macy's as a clerk for many, many years. She was bright and had a ton of grit, but she thought pursuing a career would somehow take something away from the family. In her late 60s she was able to potentiate her passion--as a Vice President for the Retail, Wholesale Department Store Workers Union. She happily trudged into Herald Square every day, taking two subways each way, well into her 70s to do this job she belatedly discovered. Two weeks before she died she told me that she thought she lived a wasted life because she never pursued her passion.

and if she was born at a later time she wouldn't have been able to pursue that either. Sheeesh who is unionized anymore or has been for decades? Certainly not retail. I'm sure zero hour contracts are many people's passion too smth.

JaneV2.0

1-26-21, 5:37pm

I devoutly hope unions make a comeback. They've never left more progressive countries.

jp1

1-26-21, 5:41pm

It wasn't just the workplace where woman were not treated equally. In high school one of my friend's parents had divorced (around 1980). Her mom told the story of wanting to buy a house so that she would have a place to raise her children. She found something she could afford but the (male, of course) loan officer didn't want to give her a loan because he felt that she should find another man to take care of her. She was 50 at the time and he justified his previous comments with "it's a 30 year mortgage, you're not likely to work until you're 80." Being a smart woman she asked him to run the numbers on a 15 year mortgage to see if she qualified, since she WAS likely to work until 65. It turned out that she did qualify so he grudgingly signed off on the loan.

JaneV2.0

1-26-21, 5:54pm

When I bought my first place, the loan officer showed me off to his staff--women seeking mortgages (or maybe getting them) was such a novel idea at the time.

catherine

1-26-21, 5:58pm

Shirley Chisholm said "I have certainly met much more discrimination in terms of being a woman than being Black."

iris lilies

1-26-21, 5:58pm

I know these mortgage games were difficult back in the day. By the time I bought a house in 1983, it was not unusual for women, apparently.

I Remember having a hard time getting a general credit card but not because I was a woman, it was because credit cards were hard to get them. I only wanted a credit card so I could build up credit so I could get a mortgage. Well by then, I was traveling a bit so an emergency credit card to rent a car was necessary. Otherwise everything was done with travelers checks.

ApatheticNoMore

1-26-21, 6:00pm

These days you could get a mortgage as a woman, you just could never afford one on a single salary.

(Oh yes they actually were affordable on one salary once).

Alan

1-26-21, 6:06pm

My mom wouldn't have worked unless my parents needed the money because, like Alan, my parents felt that the division of family labor was logical and best for the kids.
I'd like to think that having my mother in the home, making sure we were fed and clothed and safe was a high minded choice made in our best interests, but the truth of the matter is, what do you do with 5 kids each and every day of the week in order to make a different choice?

catherine

1-26-21, 6:11pm

I'd like to think that having my mother in the home, making sure we were fed and clothed and safe was a high minded choice made in our best interests, but the truth of the matter is, what do you do with 5 kids each and every day of the week in order to make a different choice?

True. When I had two kids 14 months apart, I decided to start a family day care business because it would have killed me to net zero financially with working full time and having to give up the privilege of being with my kids every day. That day care business was the hardest job I've ever had.

frugal-one

1-26-21, 6:11pm

I'd like to think that having my mother in the home, making sure we were fed and clothed and safe was a high minded choice made in our best interests, but the truth of the matter is, what do you do with 5 kids each and every day of the week in order to make a different choice?

People do have nannies. Woman now are doctors, lawyers etc.... It is the quality of time spent, not the quantity. I think a mother is a better mother if she is happy. There are choices.

catherine

1-26-21, 6:13pm

There are choices.

That's the point. In the 50s choices were limited.

Alan

1-26-21, 6:14pm

I Remember having a hard time getting a general credit card but not because I was a woman, it was because credit cards were hard to get them.
I was turned down on my first several attempts to get a credit card too, it seems that they'd like to see a good credit history before committing to men as well in the absence of a co-signer.

I think in my case it was a good move on the denying lendors part. My greatest interest in having a card or two was in having the ability to float payment of purchases for a bit. It took me a while to get out of that immediate gratification at future expense phase.

Alan

1-26-21, 6:16pm

People do have nannies.Yes, I heard of such things. Weren't they usually English spinsters? We didn't know any. :)

ApatheticNoMore

1-26-21, 6:21pm

Yea I think far more people are probably doing daycare than nannies. But for 5? I don't see any scenario where that isn't unaffordable. But really there was "good enough" birth control in the past to put some limit on family size, it only has to be partially effective for that afterall.

catherine

1-26-21, 6:21pm

I was turned down on my first several attempts to get a credit card too, it seems that they'd like to see a good credit history before committing to men as well in the absence of a co-signer.

I think in my case it was a good move on the denying lendors part. My greatest interest in having a card or two was in having the ability to float payment of purchases for a bit. It took me a while to get out of that immediate gratification at future expense phase.

Having a hard time getting approved is not the same as being legally barred from approval or paying higher interest rates (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/forty-years-ago-women-had-a-hard-time-getting-credit-cards-180949289/).

"Forty years ago, any woman applying for a credit card could be asked a barrage of questions: Was she married? Did she plan to have children? Many banks required single, divorced or widowed women to bring a man along with them to cosign for a credit card, and some discounted the wages of women by as much as 50 percent when calculating their credit card limits.

As women and minorities pushed for equal civil rights in various arenas, credit cards became the focus of a series of hearings in which women documented the discrimination they faced. And, finally, in 1974—forty years ago this year—the Senate passed the Equal Credit Opportunity Act, which made it illegal to discriminate against someone based on their gender, race, religion and national origin."

JaneV2.0

1-26-21, 7:13pm

Oddly, I don't remember having any trouble qualifying for a credit card, circa 1967 or so.

catherine

1-26-21, 7:17pm

Oddly, I don't remember having any trouble qualifying for a credit card, circa 1967 or so.

My first credit card was a BankAmericard and my first credit purchase was for Earth Shoes. 1974.

frugal-one

1-26-21, 7:21pm

That's the point. In the 50s choices were limited.

Guess I took it to mean today too...

pinkytoe

1-26-21, 7:46pm

My mother always told me that she wanted to know another life besides the mountains she grew up in where most women married very young to farmers or ranchers and had too many children. She got her pharmacy degree in the early 1940s and it served her well when my parents divorced and she had to make it on her own. She somehow managed to buy a small house in an old money neighborhood where the schools were better. Thus, I grew up in a storybook neighborhood and was always very ashamed that I had a single mom that worked. My friend's mothers led pampered lives and many had Mexican maids who cooked and cleaned their houses. They busied themselves with volunteer and charity work, party planning and getting daughters ready for annual debutante balls. It was a very confusing time for me to figure out exactly what women were supposed to do with their lives. The pampered life had its appeal but only because that was the dominant theme there. Strangely, that little world still exists in the place where I grew up. The women may get a teaching degree and work a few years but as generations before them, they "marry well" and return to their pampered lives.

JaneV2.0

1-26-21, 7:46pm

Mine was a BankAmericard too, and I have no idea what I used it for--schoolbooks, maybe.
I did like Earth shoes, though I never had any.

JaneV2.0

1-26-21, 7:49pm

The idea that some man would define my life was poison to me, thus my never-married status.
I like men--a lot--but on my own terms.

ApatheticNoMore

1-26-21, 8:18pm

I owned some earth shoes, maybe 10-15 years ago.

ApatheticNoMore

1-26-21, 8:56pm

The truth is my one experience of sexism in the workplace (oh I've met plenty of jerks outside the workplace, a ton) but IN the workplace, is maybe when a male boss encouraged me to go in a career direction that had more females (he did not of course put it like that). I was plenty insecure and out of my own insecurities eventually did (having to do with many factors, the boss just being one), but it was an astoundingly bad fit for my personality and eventually crashed and burned. It's several jobs since and I've been course correcting ever since, not going back at all to that really and doing much better as a result, and nothing is all good or bad, even bad stuff can be a skill on a resume, but really it was very far from the best move. But I was not just female but young and extremely insecure.

As for what anyone makes? Yea you aren't supposed to talk about that with coworkers and I never do, some have to me. But it's a case of way too many variables anyway! Much depends on how hard you are willing to negotiate starting salary, but maybe you are unemployed and willing to take what you get, or maybe you can and will drive a hard bargain etc.. So it's frankly in any individual case arbitrary. As for promotions, most people have not received any at most workplaces I've been.

pinkytoe

1-26-21, 11:32pm

I worked in retail for a while in the mid 1980s. My boss at the time would follow me around when the store was not busy and ask me what color my panties were. That dude would have been fired on the spot today.

Yppej

1-27-21, 6:33am

To answer your question is this still prevalent today?

The expectation that a mother will stay home with the kids - no.

The expectation that she will prepare meals - not as much. People eat out much more than they did in the 1950's even if it's just fast food, and the microwave has had a big impact.

Being attractive all the time - this has gotten worse with the rise of social media selfies and porn culture.

Kids - I don't know about now, my kid is grown, but I definitely faced blame the mother for everything even to the point of a school saying the state should take custody of him when he acted out in class. They never looked into what medical (psychological) issues he might have although I requested an evaluation. All they did was rule out intellectual disabilities. Also, although his father had joint legal custody they never blamed him for anything, always me, the one struggling to raise the child on a nonprofessional income and $10 a week in child support, which the father sometimes went years without paying.

jp1

1-27-21, 7:29am

What is porn culture?

Tybee

1-27-21, 8:07am

I think women's roles are constantly being defined for them by men--be it sex kitten on Instagram, happy co-worker with no complaints (sure, keep paying me 75 cents on the dollar), or grandmother lucky to be watching The Price is Right while shelling peas.

It is someone else defining how lucky we are, how happy we are, how sexually receptive we are.

If you say, No, I'm not buying that reality, then you are scolded--"don't you lecture me about x," etc.

More of the same, all our lives.

GeorgeParker

1-27-21, 9:47am

So your mother was also left in the lurch like mine was...Well, yes and no. My father moved to another state and told my mother to divorce him because he had lost 3 jobs in less than a year for being disrespectful to his employers and he decided she would be better off living with her parents than staying married to him. About 10 years later, when he had mellowed out, he got married again and had a long successful marriage with 3 children, as I learned when he died and his new family put a death notice in our local paper because they still had some relatives in Georgia.

maybe our realities aren't that far apart, but our perspectives and how they shaped our worldview may be different. Did your mother enjoy her job? Did she ever have aspirations for a different life?My mother was a people person. So far as I know she was always happy with her job because her personality made her good at it and she was a natural fit for the things her job required.

Originally she was one of "the girls in the office" at the local branch office of a national building supply company. There were 6 young women who took phone orders from established customers, handled billing and credit checks, and did all the other paperwork. There were also 5 salesmen who spent most of their time visiting construction sites to determine what items a builder needed and what level of quality-vs-cost would best fit a particular job. The office manager was a man because, in theory, male salesmen and male builders wouldn't respect a female office manager.

My mother rose to the unofficial position of "Head Office Girl" which meant she was in charge of the office but without the title or salary. Later, when the office manager quit, she became the official office manager with the title and salary because all the builders and all the salesmen liked her and all of them knew they could trust her to get things done and to settle misunderstandings/disputes in a way that left everyone satisfied. Later still, after corporate had sent 3 incompetent assistant managers in a row and refused to consider my mother for that job because she was a woman, the branch manager told them he would refuse to even consider anyone they sent to him as an assistant manager and that my mother was now his assistant manager, with or without the title and with or without the pay.

She did the assistant manager job for a number of years, including meetings with regional vice-presidents of the corporation and all other functions, and her regional vice-president tried to get her the official title of assistant manager, but the corporate board refused.

When President Ford introduced wage and price controls as part of the "Whip Inflation Now" campaign. My Mother's branch manager took advantage of the situation by telling corporate that my mother was doing a great job and really deserved a raise, but because of the wage freeze he couldn't give her a raise unless the wage increase was the result of her job title changing. And that was how she finally got the official title of assistant manager.

As a side note: Once I was old enough (9yo iirc) she would occasionally arrange for me to go out with one of the salesmen and ride around all day visiting construction sites all over north Georgia. I would stand quietly 6 feet away listening while the salesman and builder at each site talked, but mostly it was just a lot of me and him riding around. Years later, mother told me the reason for those trips was that she wanted me to become familiar with the way good men act and the things they talk about because she felt like my life (populated mostly with female teachers and stay-at-home moms) wasn't giving me enough positive male role models. And she was probably right.

And with all due respect, GP, I believe men romanticize the picture of the 50s women. I can't say I blame you.Some do, some don't. Men born between 1960-1970 are perhaps the most likely to believe that life back then really was like Lassie and Father Knows Best and Leave It To Beaver for average American families and that everyone was happy with their gender stereotypes. Men in that age bracket are too young to have understood the worst of it while growing up, and not young enough to have grown up during a time when gender-equality issues were front and center.

I grew up at a time and in a situation that led me to understand that things weren't fair and that it ought not to be that way. And by the mid-1970's, even though progress was just beginning to be made, I often saw bumper stickers that said "A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle." and one of my favorite songs at that time was "I Was Gonna Be an Engineer" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IGVxBb5uYk So I'm probably not typical.

happystuff

1-27-21, 10:27am

The truth is my one experience of sexism in the workplace

I've had more than one experience, but most blatant was in the service in the late 70's. A Master Gunnery Sergeant did NOT like women in HIS Marine Corps. >8)

LDAHL

1-27-21, 10:44am

GeorgeParker

1-27-21, 10:56am

I wonder how representative some of these media stereotypes have been of the population and culture of their time. The fifties housewife, the sixties hippie, the eighties yuppie, the nineties soccer mom, the artisanal hipster or Karen.All stereotypes are a generalized exaggeration of whatever characteristics are most noticeable in a particular group. But all people are individuals, even when they exhibit or intentionally adopt the outward characteristics of a specific group. Therefore, all stereotypes are basically untrue.

GeorgeParker

1-27-21, 11:32am

What is porn culture?I didn't know what that term meant either, so I Googled it. https://www.feministcurrent.com/2016/12/14/impact-porn-culture-girls/

The basic definition seems to be:
"a report published this year (https://www.nspcc.org.uk/globalassets/documents/research-reports/mdx-nspcc-occ-pornography-report.pdf) by the NSPCC shows that, today, young people are just as likely to find pornography by accident as they are to seek it out deliberately. There is a difference between a culture in which someone has to specifically seek porn if they want to view it and a culture in which porn consumption by kids and teenagers is happening accidentally just as much as intentionally. This is a culture in which porn is simply part of growing up, whether we like it or not."

My own definition would have been that porn culture is a condition in which people casually encountering mild porn accidentally on the internet is no longer considered unusual. But apparently the situation has gotten a lot worse than that.