Future of colleges and universities

[razz]

Post-secondary has not changed its formula too much over a few centuries. If you can afford or borrow enough to attend, you get a degree. Changes have been unfolding for some time with Open University, Coursera and others. The pandemic has expanded the role of the virtual university beyond belief. What will happen to the bricks and mortar, expensive facilities etc?

This article https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/feb/13/universities-need-to-wise-up-or-risk-being-consigned-to-history?utm_term=38911199eb86c15f8ff4aa9af7ce5ab7&utm_campaign=GuardianTodayUK&utm_source=esp&utm_medium=Email&CMP=GTUK_email made me think about the future for the upcoming generations and their access to education.

[herbgeek]

I'm ok with some colleges going under. I briefly was on a board of alumni for my college, and was exposed to a number of practices I found distasteful/wasteful. Every department had a figure head, with an assistant who really did the work, and the assistant to the assistant who did the clerical function. Colleges and universities have raised tuition 2 and 3 times the rate of inflation since I was paying attention to this when I graduated. And they have gotten away with that because a college education was seen as the one and only path to success. I would love to see more support ala Mike Rowe for vocational education or something like the German model where an apprenticeship is held in high esteem also. I'd love to see more 2 year colleges and trade colleges being an esteemed path, and not the path for the "dumb kids who can't do college".

There are so many more options now if someone wants to pick up knowledge. The lagging part of this ecosystem is HR departments, who still look for "credentials" so if there is a bad hire, it won't be their fault. As a manager, I had to really fight to hire some folks into my open positions who didn't have the traditional education or degrees, but could clearly do the job at hand.

[Yppej]

I found the book Excellent Sheep instructive in showing that post-secondary education often serves more of a social class than a learning purpose.

[Teacher Terry]

Many people in the trades make more money than people with college degrees. Many people enjoy the challenge in that type of work and it definitely takes skills and intelligence. Germany definitely has the right idea.

[GeorgeParker]

I would love to see...something like the German model where an apprenticeship is held in high esteem.Some towns already have that because a big local employer can never find enough good new employees.

It works like this: The employer provides machines, instructional material, and an instructor for free. The school provides a classroom for free and gives students who take the employer's class academic credit just like you used to get for taking "shop" or ROTC. The students who take the employer's class learn how to do woodworking, or metal working, or electronics work, or whatever it is the employer does, and if they pass the class with a certain grade they're guaranteed a summer job when they graduate from high school. It's nothing but a flatout apprenticeship program but the school and students both benefit at no cost and the employer gets a potential pool of student's who might have never thought about going to work there if they weren't offered the incentive of an "easy" class credit to fill out their graduation requirement.

[rosarugosa]

Some towns already have that because a big local employer can never find enough good new employees.

It works like this: The employer provides machines, instructional material, and an instructor for free. The school provides a classroom for free and gives students who take the employer's class academic credit just like you used to get for taking "shop" or ROTC. The students who take the employer's class learn how to do woodworking, or metal working, or electronics work, or whatever it is the employer does, and if they pass the class with a certain grade they're guaranteed a summer job when they graduate from high school. It's nothing but a flatout apprenticeship program but the school and students both benefit at no cost and the employer gets a potential pool of student's who might have never thought about going to work there if they weren't offered the incentive of an "easy" class credit to fill out their graduation requirement.
General Electric partnered with the Lynn Vocational Technical School (where I was taking my night-time carpentry classes) to help turn out qualified machinists for their large plant in Lynn, MA. Lynn is not a particularly wealthy community, so this pathway to stable, decent paying jobs is definitely a good thing for Lynn.

[JaneV2.0]

Many people in the trades make more money than people with college degrees. Many people enjoy the challenge in that type of work and it definitely takes skills and intelligence. Germany definitely has the right idea.

I had a classmate that accumulated several degrees. He went to work in the trades--pipefitter?--because he said there was more money and far less stress than a white-collar job would have had.

[Teacher Terry]

My second husband had a bachelor and master’s in math. He hated working in a office. My dad got him a tool and dye apprenticeship and he loved it. He made great money and overtime on weekends. He spent his career doing that and if he got laid off he could find a new job in less than a week. When I got my second master’s we took my best offer because he could get a job anywhere. He worked with others that also had degrees.

[LDAHL]

When you hear complaints about the “skills gap”, it’s never about a shortage of English majors. I agree that we place too much social weight on what degrees you have and where you got them.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Probably the majority of time you hear complaints of a skills gap, it's just some employer not wanting to pay market wages (so let's import some people who will work below that in indentured servitude). They'll talk about skills gap even while people with that skill can't get work. I'm not saying in theory a skills gap can't exist for a few highly specialized skills, it's just not always what is going on. (note: if you are training your replacements, it's not a skill shortage :laff:)

I wonder how many females would really be comfortable going into some heavily male blue collar trade, because it's more macho and rougher than say being an engineer (male dominated, but white collar). But yes if they will pay you to learn it and apprentice (and this does exist in some trades), it is probably indeed in demand. Other trades like much construction, you will just be competing with a bunch of illegal immigrants and how promising is that really - they aren't exactly making bank off it, though their employers may be.

[JaneV2.0]

I integrated a blue-collar workforce. There was a bit of hazing, but for the most part it was fine. I learned I preferred all-male workmates to all-female, generally, with some exceptions. My preference, though, is a truly diverse crew.

[ApatheticNoMore]

If we're talking in terms of generations, things might change in terms of education maybe. People who expect everything to change now though, I mean come now is this anyone's actual experience, instant revolutions? Isn't experience the extreme resilience of the status quo despite all obstacles and absurdities. All office workers are going to be working from home permanently (after the pandemic) now? Yea right. Universities will all be online (after the pandemic) now? Yea right. Suddenly formal credentials won't matter at all? Yea right. Online universities are a real good fit for what are called non-traditional students IMO (say someone a bit or a lot older than 21, with a job that supports them, maybe a spouse, maybe a family) but that's not really the 18 year old crowd.

[iris lilies]

DH has a Master’s degree +30 and is happiest working as a carpenter/handyman.

[LDAHL]

I I learned I preferred all-male workmates to all-female, generally, with some exceptions.

Why was that?

[catherine]

DH has a Master’s degree +30 and is happiest working as a carpenter/handyman.

I think we all would be better off and happier with a better balance of head and hands work. The problem is we have "blue collar" vs "white collar". In high school you had the college track and the vocational track. Many of us are not very well-rounded, but that's the fault of the culture for the most part.

[razz]

I think we all would be better off and happier with a better balance of head and hands work. The problem is we have "blue collar" vs "white collar". In high school you had the college track and the vocational track. Many of us are not very well-rounded, but that's the fault of the culture for the most part.

Have to somewhat disagree with this. My options upon finishing high school were university if family could afford to pay(mine could not) or teaching or nursing or secretarial roles or Mrs. It was largely men's work vs women's work which is a consequence of both cultural and historical; it was more the male track with the options of blue or white collar. Being well rounded was taught at home or self-taught.

[iris lilies]

Have to somewhat disagree with this. My options upon finishing high school were university if family could afford to pay(mine could not) or teaching or nursing or secretarial roles or Mrs. It was largely men's work vs women's work which is a consequence of both cultural and historical; it was more the male track with the options of blue or white collar. Being well rounded was taught at home or self-taught.
I agree.

But “at home” in suburbia in my childhood had limited means for hands on education. DH is all-knowing in fixing things because he grew up on a self sufficient farm where they had to fix everything themselves and there were many mechanical and building things to fix.

Still, I will say that my brother does not know how to fix anything. Our dad didn’t teach him and really could have because our dad knew how to fix stuff (farm boy) and our dad could have involved brother in household fixes, I suppose.

my mom didn’t teach me how to cook but that is because she didn’t think she knew how to cook herself. I learned more about cooking from DH than from anyone else. That, and an Asian cooking class series I took decades ago.

[JaneV2.0]

I didn't learn one practical skill growing up, I don't think.

I so envied a co-worker's wife "Oh, she's at home building a deck." Unimaginable to me.

[catherine]

I didn't learn one practical skill growing up, I don't think.

I so envied a co-worker's wife "Oh, she's at home building a deck." Unimaginable to me.

I'm with you. Too busy reading, probably like you.

By the time I was an adult, I couldn't cook, couldn't garden, couldn't knit, had no mechanical sense, and I flunked my only test at woodworking: building a birdhouse.

Then I hear my DIL telling me about her mother (now deceased unfortunately) who ran a bakery business out of the local general store, relocated a staircase in their home, played the piano and painted beautiful oil paintings (in her spare time raising 3 children), and was a wonderful host to NYTimes crossword competitions in her home. (That's what I have to live up to :(

My sense is that the more skills and knowledge people have, the more agency they feel they have, and the happier they may be. But that's just my humble opinion.

[JaneV2.0]

"My sense is that the more skills and knowledge people have, the more agency they feel they have, and the happier they may be. But that's just my humble opinion."

Makes perfect sense to me. Maybe I can make up for lack of skills with more knowledge? Cramming...;)

[razz]

OK, Catherine, do I need to remind you about you making your own clothes?

[iris lilies]

I would choose DH and Diana in Wisconsin as my luxury items on a desert island. Those two would keep me fed and housed.

likely they would boot me off, though, as an ornamental log. Or eat me.

[ToomuchStuff]

I wonder how many females would really be comfortable going into some heavily male blue collar trade, because it's more macho and rougher than say being an engineer (male dominated, but white collar). But yes if they will pay you to learn it and apprentice (and this does exist in some trades), it is probably indeed in demand. Other trades like much construction, you will just be competing with a bunch of illegal immigrants and how promising is that really - they aren't exactly making bank off it, though their employers may be.
I've known a few. We had a gal that would have loved to be a mechanic, her biggest issue was not being able to say no, to watching her grandkids, during work time. Woman I proposed to, was very hands on, we remodeled, landscaped, etc. together and it was part of what I loved about her (not afraid to get her hands dirty). Then when we were kids, we knew a couple who the wife did all the mechanical work (change the oil, brakes, construction) and the husband did all the laundry, cooking, kid rearing type of duties.
Years later, as more of this was seen, culturally, things like all the girl calendars from both tool and beer companies, went away.


I'm with you. Too busy reading, probably like you.

By the time I was an adult, I couldn't cook, couldn't garden, couldn't knit, had no mechanical sense, and I flunked my only test at woodworking: building a birdhouse.

Then I hear my DIL telling me about her mother (now deceased unfortunately) who ran a bakery business out of the local general store, relocated a staircase in their home, played the piano and painted beautiful oil paintings (in her spare time raising 3 children), and was a wonderful host to NYTimes crossword competitions in her home. (That's what I have to live up to :(

My sense is that the more skills and knowledge people have, the more agency they feel they have, and the happier they may be. But that's just my humble opinion.

So much of business is basic math and finding people you can trust for skills you don't have (tax man, etc). I learned a lot of skills growing up as at 14, I started taking care of grandmothers house. (fixing things, landscaping, painting, etc) For me it was more because I had no one to rely on, but myself. Things come down to time and money and when you didn't have money, you used the time (and resources such as TOH, or the public library) to learn how to do things.
Because of that, she used to take me down to her mechanics, where they would teach me how to do things.
Where my parents, were the type that looked down on us doing blue collar work, and my father said things, such as "you can work on your own car, when you have your own tools and house to work on them." and things such as "you want to start mowing yards, then go buy your own mower, you're not using mine".
Life needs to be somewhere in the middle, as I found I could work, 24/7, doing blue collar work, and get burned out, always fixing other peoples problems, same with white collar.

As to the apprenticeship thing, my former neighbor, was an apprentice woodworker in Austria, before coming over to America. I have no idea (never asked), how he learned to become a chef (what he did professionally, here), but when I look at him, or another chef friend, or my grandmother, I know I can feed myself, but it is not the same thing as cooking.
When I was close to graduation, I was working in a restaurant, where a friend and his father frequented. I was always jealous, as they built houses. I didn't even have the real skillset to get a job with them. My chef neighbor, saw me swinging a hammer, when I was in my 30's, and taught me about waste of motion, etc. He was surprised at how much I had to teach myself. I learned more about power tools, on my own, after school, where we didn't have overcrowded classes, causing shoddy work, because you didn't have time to sneak up on a cut, etc.
EDIT: I see a lot more Universities, going online only, and going into financing the way Sears, etc. etc. etc. did with credit cards. We will still have actual hands on ones for things such as medical school, etc.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Many people in the trades make more money than people with college degrees. Many people enjoy the challenge in that type of work and it definitely takes skills and intelligence. Germany definitely has the right idea.Plus about a million. Going to college guarantees nothing - it took me years before I ended out in even slightly degree appropriate work. Trades more and more seem the way to go. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

DH has a Master’s degree +30 and is happiest working as a carpenter/handyman.R- E - S - P - E - C - T. Rob

[JaneV2.0]

I only worked in one job requiring a degree--my editing gig--and I'm not absolutely sure it required one.

[happystuff]

I think my degree got me my job in programming; I think having ANY degree was what they were looking for on resumes. But I haven't had any other job where I believe it actually made a difference.

[Teacher Terry]

All of my degrees were job specific so needed them to work in a specific job.

[catherine]

My degree was in Theatre/Drama Criticism, which is, of course, how I wound up in pharmaceutical market research. To be perfectly honest, the skills I learned in college have absolutely given me my abilities in data analysis. And my acting skills have definitely worked well for me in interviewing patients and doctors.

This is why I believe in a liberal education. Various intelligences and skills you learn in the process of being educated as a "whole person" can be applied across many disciplines, not just what you get your degree in.

[ApatheticNoMore]

That I do not get. Why people make such a big deal out of a degree got ages ago, in something that may only tangentially relate to anything they do, for a few years of their life (well unless one is fresh out of college), like they have not learned anything since then in the whole of actual full blown adulthood.

How much does anyone even remember from a degree got ages ago, in their youth, when they probably had ten million other things on their mind in addition to studies (like how they would ever make it in the adult world, like dating and socializing, like what to do with their life, like how to best manage still dealing with the parental overseer to some degree perhaps).

[Gardnr]

College is required to be a RN. And the continued education is not cheap so we bear costs for the entirety of our careers.

Hubster is in IT and also college required. His continued education makes mine look super cheap.

There are many services we all require that do mandate college education so I sure hope enough survive.

And remember, much trade education occurs in colleges via their Voc Ed programs. Our college had to close it's CDL program 4y ago. 6 applicants for 30 slots and that doesn't mean they all met pre-quals.

[pinkytoe]

One of my nieces got an MA in a water management field, quit that, bought a farm, raised hogs for a while and then decided to become a welder. She now makes a good living as a welder and is raising a family too...on the farm. With the Tx weather fiasco going on now, plumbers are in huge demand.

[catherine]

With the Tx weather fiasco going on now, plumbers are in huge demand.

Plumbers are always in huge demand. When my "portly" plumber balked at doing a job in my crawlspace, he told me, "you need a skinny plumber." My answer was: "It's hard enough to get any plumber up here--now you want me to find a skinny one??"

[pinkytoe]

When DH was young, one of his first job's was as a plumber's helper. After a few stints cleaning the drains at a funeral home, he decided not to go into that field.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Plumber maybe, welder is the type of job that you'd be competing with illegal immigrants, as that's whose doing most welding in the construction industry. But maybe not somewhere rural. That's the thing, the only advice most young people really receive are broad generalities, whether it's "go to college", or "learn to code", or "go into medicine there are always jobs there", or "take up a trade, lots of demand in the trades". Whatever the trend du jour is. But the ins and outs of the realities not so much. Like not all trades are really going to get you where you want to go. And I'm hard pressed to see switching the generality from "go to college" to "take up a trade" as much of an improvement.

[SteveinMN]

Plumber maybe, welder is the type of job that you'd be competing with illegal immigrants, as that's whose doing most welding in the construction industry.
When I was in IT, we were constantly compared for efficacy against our "co-sourced" (contracted) colleagues in India and Vietnam. I have heard of hospitals that farm out routine X-ray readings to radiologists in other countries (the "film" is digital now; it can be shipped anywhere immediately). Those groups are not composed of undocumented immigrants but the essential effect is the same. Even specialized training/a degree isn't necessarily enough any more.


Like not all trades are really going to get you where you want to go. And I'm hard pressed to see switching the generality from "go to college" to "take up a trade" as much of an improvement.
I don't think it should be a shift so much as an allowance. Allow for the idea that, for some people, the specialized training of a trade is a better career path than getting a degree in some field or another. College is still fine if that's where one's goals take them. But skills like plumbing and diesel mechanics and phlebotomy are needed and will be hard to outsource for a while yet. Jobs like thoe are a valuable option for many who otherwise end up talked out of doing something quite viable for them because "everybody" should get a college degree.