View Full Version : Which has the deeper, longer term impact upon the United States?
gimmethesimplelife
2-21-21, 7:00pm
9/11 or January 6th, 2021? What do you think and why? I am completely stumped on this one personally. Rob
9 11 united us for a while. 1 6 has divided us further.
9/11 struck deep as it was a terrorist attack and felt by a majority of us.
1/6 is a criminal political battle of crazed Trumpers trying to convince the masses that it was really the far Left in disguise. Although it is a serious issue to many of us, it is Trump's joke on all of us-acquitted he was, by 43 Senators afraid to move forward by pissing him off.
9/11 left everyone feeling vulnerable. 1/6 left people working in the Capitol vulnerable, but they were also targets on 9/11 but one of the terrorist controlled planes was stopped in Pennsylvania.
Progressive agitators blew up the Senate in 1983 and no one remembers it. This too shall pass.
Progressive agitators blew up the Senate in 1983 and no one remembers it. This too shall pass.
Comparing that incident (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_United_States_Senate_bombing) with what happened on Jan. 6 is ludicrous.
Comparing that incident (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_United_States_Senate_bombing) with what happened on Jan. 6 is ludicrous.Oh, I don't know about that, mentioning that event is less a comparison than a reminder that we tend to forget.
There seems to be more and more political violence these days, just in the last few years we've had incidents of attempted assassinations of Republican Congressmen at baseball games, rioters pounding the doors of the Supreme Court attempting to gain entry in protest of a duly confirmed Justice, regional attacks on governmental facilities across the country and finally the events of Jan 6th. Everything before that date is virtually forgotten or excused which tells me that this too will soon be a footnote to history.
ToomuchStuff
2-22-21, 11:02am
9/11, did unite so many people and left them feeling vulnerable that they were willing to give up constitutional protections and pass the patriot act.
1/6, shows there will be bloodshed giving up constitutional rights such as free speech, assembly (when peaceable), right to bear arms, etc.
iris lilies
2-22-21, 11:54am
Comparing that incident (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_United_States_Senate_bombing) with what happened on Jan. 6 is ludicrous.
I think comparisons of 9/11 and insurrection on January 6 are not reasonable. Which is not to say that the January 6 incident wasn’t serious, because it was.
I’m inclined to agree with Alan. I think there is a bit of recency bias at work here that continually makes us think we are at a pivotal moment in history.
Teacher Terry
2-22-21, 12:33pm
I am agreeing with IL on this one.
frugal-one
2-22-21, 1:24pm
I’m inclined to agree with Alan. I think there is a bit of recency bias at work here that continually makes us think we are at a pivotal moment in history.
We are. We had a president that tried everything he could to overturn a valid election. I don't see how you can say that is not pivotal/significant?
happystuff
2-22-21, 2:42pm
Simplified - to me - 9/11 was an external attack against our government while 1/6 was internal attack to over-throw our government. I think both have a deep, long-term impact.
So, because we "forgot" about 1983, it's ok if we naturally forget about 1/6?
How does anything ever get better if we just let it "pass?" Or are we just doomed to repeat?
We are. We had a president that tried everything he could to overturn a valid election. I don't see how you can say that is not pivotal/significant?
Pivotal as in changing the course of our history? No. The first case of contesting election results in the courts? No.
Pivotal as in changing the course of our history? No. The first case of contesting election results in the courts? No.
But it WAS the first case of a violent mob trying to prevent/change the counting of the electoral college votes.
frugal-one
2-22-21, 3:18pm
But it WAS the first case of a violent mob trying to prevent/change the counting of the electoral college votes.
And, incensed by the president who lost the election.
So, because we "forgot" about 1983, it's ok if we naturally forget about 1/6?
I don't think we should forget about the actions of 1/6/21, I just think that for the most part we will. That's what too many of us do, although there will always be those who will forever remember that day for the wrong reasons, that being it's association with someone they hate. I say for the wrong reasons because very few of them will remember or renounce the other recent instances of political violence that preceded it due to their not being emotionally invested in it, or in some cases actually approving of it. I may be wrong about that, but I don't think so, even though I know that I will never forget.
frugal-one
2-22-21, 7:18pm
I have to say since trump is gone and all the constant tweeting... life is relatively calm. Say what you want, but he incited the mob on Jan 6. Hard to understand why anyone would stick up for his actions.
Say what you want, but he incited the mob on Jan 6. Hard to understand why anyone would stick up for his actions.Is someone doing that?
Is someone doing that?
If you aren’t prepared to insist that Trump is the worst thing ever, down to the reductio ad hitlerum level, you are construed as a defending him.
That’s the rule.
If you aren’t prepared to insist that Trump is the worst thing ever, down to the reductio ad hitlerum level, you are construed as a defending him.
That’s the rule.Yeah, but it's a silly rule.
frugal-one
2-23-21, 6:28am
Pivotal as in changing the course of our history? No. The first case of contesting election results in the courts? No.
.....downplaying the enormity of actions...
.....downplaying the enormity of actions...
Admitting that you belong to the party that is currently, despite his loss, led be a seditious turd is difficult. Especially if one voted for him. Denial is much easier.
frugal-one
2-23-21, 1:31pm
If you aren’t prepared to insist that Trump is the worst thing ever, down to the reductio ad hitlerum level, you are construed as a defending him.
That’s the rule.
trump is/was a dictator-wanna-be as evidenced by Jan 6th. If you deny that, you are defending him. He tried to remain in power even though he lost (as would a dictator).
Teacher Terry
2-23-21, 2:08pm
If a democrat acted the same way I wouldn’t be in denial like the republicans. Yes he was trying to be a dictator.
iris lilies
2-23-21, 2:18pm
If a democrat acted the same way I wouldn’t be in denial like the republicans. Yes he was trying to be a dictator.
I miss PDQXYZ, a poster from long ago here. But I will paraphrase his words about G!w Bush which I thought were funny in their simple truth:
Trump is no longer the president. Try to get over it.
happystuff
2-23-21, 2:30pm
I miss PDQXYZ, a poster from long ago here. But I will paraphrase his words about G!w Bush which I thought were funny in their simple truth:
Trump is no longer the president. Try to get over it.
Actually, I think Trump is the one that has to get over it. ;)
frugal-one
2-23-21, 2:33pm
I miss PDQXYZ, a poster from long ago here. But I will paraphrase his words about G!w Bush which I thought were funny in their simple truth:
Trump is no longer the president. Try to get over it.
Not when people downplay what he did and saying this did not change the course of history. I’m sure I will get over it but it looks like trump may get his comeuppance. One can only hope.
In the face of all the evidence--and 60 court cases--that the last election was one of the smoothest and fairest in history, many Republican lawmakers are refusing to admit that Joe Biden is the duly-elected president. It's clear that they--and Trump--haven't "gotten over it." So their credulous followers lumber on, believing hare-brained rumors and Q-droppings, much to the country's detriment.
Why the obsessive need to slot people into this peculiar binary? Why is it not acceptable to make a simple judgment of “pretty bad” without descending into perfervid flights of fascist fantasy? I’m glad he’s gone. I’m glad our electorate and system of laws prevented a second Trump term. But that doesn’t mean I have to view the whole thing in giddy apocalyptic terms.
iris lilies
2-23-21, 3:00pm
Actually, I think Trump is the one that has to get over it. ;)
probably a lot of people from both “sides” need to get over it.
probably a lot of people from both “sides” need to get over it.
I agree, but only one of those sides is represented here.
happystuff
2-23-21, 3:20pm
I agree, but only one of those sides is represented here.
I'm not sure I understand the "represented" reference. People post or don't post here as they see fit. Can't make someone step up and "represent" if they don't want - regardless of "sides".
iris lilies
2-23-21, 3:37pm
I'm not sure I understand the "represented" reference. People post or don't post here as they see fit. Can't make someone step up and "represent" if they don't want - regardless of "sides".
OK I’ll bite. Who exactly, name names, needs to step up to represent whatever it is you think is not being represented?
My comment about both “sides “in post number 32 of this thread refers to the world outside of our little friendly website here.
frugal-one
2-23-21, 4:22pm
OK I’ll bite. Who exactly, name names, needs to step up to represent whatever it is you think is not being represented?
My comment about both “sides “in post number 32 of this thread refers to the world outside of our little friendly website here.
See post 33.
happystuff
2-24-21, 10:26am
OK I’ll bite. Who exactly, name names, needs to step up to represent whatever it is you think is not being represented?
My comment about both “sides “in post number 32 of this thread refers to the world outside of our little friendly website here.
IL, please re-read my post. I'm not asking who needs to step up to "represent" or that anyone HAS to step up.. I'm saying in a forum of this type - or any type, actually, people choose whether to post or not.
iris lilies
2-24-21, 11:26am
IL, please re-read my post. I'm not asking who needs to step up to "represent" or that anyone HAS to step up.. I'm saying in a forum of this type - or any type, actually, people choose whether to post or not.
Of course people choose what to post. Sure.
I re-read your post as you requested and still get the same message from it. Maybe I am wrong.
Are you saying this: Trump supporters are keeping quiet here?
happystuff
2-24-21, 11:58am
Of course people choose what to post. Sure.
I re-read your post as you requested and still get the same message from it. Maybe I am wrong.
Are you saying this: Trump supporters are keeping quiet here?
I was saying that - in response to Alan saying: "I agree, but only one of those sides is represented here." I didn't understand his "represented" reference, and I added that people post or don't post, regardless of "sides".
I was saying that - in response to Alan saying: "I agree, but only one of those sides is represented here." I didn't understand his "represented" reference, and I added that people post or don't post, regardless of "sides".
I thought my "represented" comment was pretty obvious but I guess not. In the context of other posts leading up to mine, I was implying that there are people who seem to believe that anyone who doesn't engage in the same hateful rhetoric that they enjoy are obviously fascist, racist, totalitarian, (choose your favorite term), etc., and there are those who believe that sort of thing is silly, which seems to make them the subject of the others disdain. It seems that those who choose to engage here are more representative of the first. I hope that answers your question.
To follow up a bit on the paragraph above, I think there must be something about the anonymous nature of this medium that causes people to present themselves in ways they'd never do so in real life. As an example, I've been referred to as racist, misogynist, hitlerian, etc., as too stupid to recognize my own best interests, and a host of other negative characterizations in my time interacting here, while never experiencing any of that in real life. And not responding in kind seems to encourage it. It's weird.
happystuff
2-24-21, 12:48pm
Alan, thank you for the further explanation and making the reference clearer.
As for the "anonymous nature of this medium", etc. - I like to say "it's interesting". :)
GeorgeParker
2-24-21, 3:47pm
I thought my "represented" comment was pretty obvious but I guess not. In the context of other posts leading up to mine, I was implying that there are people who seem to believe that anyone who doesn't engage in the same hateful rhetoric that they enjoy are obviously fascist, racist, totalitarian, (choose your favorite term), etc., and there are those who believe that sort of thing is silly, which seems to make them the subject of the others disdain. It seems that those who choose to engage here are more representative of the first. I hope that answers your question.In support of Alan's observation: I belong to a motorcycle forum which is usually friendly unless somebody says something totally stupid. But the politics section of that forum is very right wing Trumpian and anyone who dares to wander in there and disagree in the slightest way with the rigid hard-right viewpoint is instantly hounded out of that section and then criticized for several more days as a poor little snowflake, etc. even though they are presumably no longer reading that section. These aren't proud boys or anything, just highly opinionated conservative bikers. But only an idiot would step in there and express an opposing political opinion. So I just ignore that section and keep my mouth shut about politics. The same is probably true here. The raging Trumpians, if they exist at all, probably keep their mouths shut and post their political opinions in a right-wing forum. As far as "in real life", IMO very few people now will express any political opinion in real life unless they're already pretty sure the person they're talking to will agree with them.
Honestly, the part I find fascinating is that non-trump republicans seem to be willing to go to their grave pretending like what happened on 1/6, and all that trump did leading up to it, was no big deal. Perhaps I'm wrong but a concerted effort by the president and an assorted group of the legislative branch to overthrow our government is a big deal. The fact that they were a bunch of sad sack losers destined to fail at their efforts doesn't minimize what they attempted to do.
frugal-one
2-25-21, 8:37am
Honestly, the part I find fascinating is that non-trump republicans seem to be willing to go to their grave pretending like what happened on 1/6, and all that trump did leading up to it, was no big deal. Perhaps I'm wrong but a concerted effort by the president and an assorted group of the legislative branch to overthrow our government is a big deal. The fact that they were a bunch of sad sack losers destined to fail at their efforts doesn't minimize what they attempted to do.
Well said!
iris lilies
2-25-21, 9:45am
Honestly, the part I find fascinating is that non-trump republicans seem to be willing to go to their grave pretending like what happened on 1/6, and all that trump did leading up to it, was no big deal. Perhaps I'm wrong but a concerted effort by the president and an assorted group of the legislative branch to overthrow our government is a big deal. The fact that they were a bunch of sad sack losers destined to fail at their efforts doesn't minimize what they attempted to do.
I might qualify as a “non trump Republican.” Please show me where I said the Jan. 6 debacle is “no big deal.”
Your continued characterizations of my point of view are wrong.
I don’t think the Jan. 6 event was as big a deal as 9/11 as discussed in another thread, though, for many reasons except perhaps ideologically. The Muslim terrorists, they gonna terrorize, no surprise really other than the outsize nature of their success. Shouldn’t be surprised about that. The element of surprise on Jan.6th by insurrectionists and encouragementent from on high is what is disturbing, not necessarily the actual event.
I thought my "represented" comment was pretty obvious but I guess not. In the context of other posts leading up to mine, I was implying that there are people who seem to believe that anyone who doesn't engage in the same hateful rhetoric that they enjoy are obviously fascist, racist, totalitarian, (choose your favorite term), etc., and there are those who believe that sort of thing is silly, which seems to make them the subject of the others disdain. It seems that those who choose to engage here are more representative of the first. I hope that answers your question.
To follow up a bit on the paragraph above, I think there must be something about the anonymous nature of this medium that causes people to present themselves in ways they'd never do so in real life. As an example, I've been referred to as racist, misogynist, hitlerian, etc., as too stupid to recognize my own best interests, and a host of other negative characterizations in my time interacting here, while never experiencing any of that in real life. And not responding in kind seems to encourage it. It's weird.
I think the medium encourages folks to needle others, often to try to show off to others how clever they are.
I agree that the result is pretty dreadful, and not something I wish to participate in. If you attempt to stand up to the bullying of the crowd, to try to achieve more just discourse, it just eggs people on in meanness.
I remember one poster saying because I said I believed in God that I was okay with children dying.
There's no point in trying to participate in that kind of forum activity.
Some people seem to want to show off. That's all I can figure for the meanness I see here, the trouble-stirring, the insults, etc. etc. It's like real life bullying--they want to exert power over others, and they want to create an environment with a scapegoat, where they are an admired leader.
The fact that there were military and law-enforcement members involved in the insurrection, evidence of lengthy pre-planning and coordination, not to mention the Executive Branch's refusal to deploy federal police or the National Guard is more troubling to me than one incident of international terrorism, no matter how spectacularly successful the latter was.
Well Alan if you're Hitlerian and I'm a Russian troll we still need to find out who is the pawn of China, since bashing that country is popular now. I remember when it used to be the Japanese because they were outcompeting us in auto production, but times change.
frugal-one
2-25-21, 9:48pm
I might qualify as a “non trump Republican.” Please show me where I said the Jan. 6 debacle is “no big deal.”
Your continued characterizations of my point of view are wrong.
I don’t think the Jan. 6 event was as big a deal as 9/11 as discussed in another thread, though, for many reasons except perhaps ideologically. The Muslim terrorists, they gonna terrorize, no surprise really other than the outsize nature of their success. Shouldn’t be surprised about that. The element of surprise on Jan.6th by insurrectionists and encouragementent from on high is what is disturbing, not necessarily the actual event.
Does not compute!
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