View Full Version : Voting Age Amendment
I see that a proposed amendment to HR 1 that would have included lowering the voting age to sixteen failed to pass, although the majority of Democrats voted in favor. Am I a dirty vote suppression villain for thinking that’s a good thing?
iris lilies
3-4-21, 4:03pm
I see that a proposed amendment to HR 1 that would have included lowering the voting age to sixteen failed to pass, although the majority of Democrats voted in favor. Am I a dirty vote suppression villain for thinking that’s a good thing?
yes.
yes you are.:~)
I think if you aren't old enough to buy a firearm, or enter into a legal contract, or consent to sex, well, you shouldn't be voting. Except for Class President or something.
I think if you're not old enough to enlist in the military, you're not old enough to vote. But to be honest, I think it's such an awesome responsibility it wouldn't bother me if it were changed to maybe 25.
ApatheticNoMore
3-4-21, 4:40pm
There was a proposition on the CA ballot to allow 17 year olds to vote. I voted for it. It failed. Now I have to admit I considered it one of the least important propositions on the ballot which had many genuinely important propositions that went really badly IMO. Wow was that election a complete dumpster fire, other than getting rid of Trump.
Most 18 year olds don't vote, or anyone near that age, so exactly how important am I supposed to consider it to vote one way or another for a part of the population that is barely likely to vote at all, like a tiny percent of them are even going to vote. It's literally going to be a non-factor in anything (but sure get all upset about it one way or other if it's your thing to do). But I have utterly no issue with 17 year olds voting is all so I have no problem giving them the vote. Why would I take issue with it?
I think if you're not old enough to enlist in the military, you're not old enough to vote. But to be honest, I think it's such an awesome responsibility it wouldn't bother me if it were changed to maybe 25.
If you are old enough to go to war or get married, IMO you are old enough to vote. Age 16... not so much.
I read that the minimum age is sixteen in places like Scotland, Austria and Ethiopia. It just seems young to me. But then I was a bit of an idiot at that age, and that probably colors my judgment.
I assume the Democrats who pushed this believed this would increase their voter base disproportionately.
Many minors have part-time jobs and pay taxes. Our country was founded on no taxation without representation. Anyone old enough to work and pay payroll taxes should have the right to vote. I would not extend this to sales tax. A little kid buying a pack of gum should not have the right to vote.
I don’t have a strong opinion on this but I tend to agree with yppej. Anyone old enough to have a job and pay taxes is affected by the decisions the government makes so why shouldn’t they have a say in who that government is.
I imagine there was an equal amount of handwringing when the age was brought down to 18.
I imagine there was an equal amount of handwringing when the age was brought down to 18.I don't recall any handwringing at all but there may have been. When the voting age was lowered to 18 it was driven mostly by the idea that 18 year olds were being drafted and sent to Vietnam but didn't have the right to vote. Changing it actually required an amendment to the Constitution which I believe was ratified by the states in extremely short order and became law as the 26th Amendment. I was a senior in high school at the time.
So, I believe the difference between allowing 18 year old citizens to vote was based on the government conscripting 18 year olds and sending them to war without benefit of their representation, it's hard to argue against that. The current desire to lower it to 16 is because kids are more likely to vote as progressives. One of those things is not like the other.
ApatheticNoMore
3-4-21, 8:11pm
The current desire to lower it to 16 is because kids are more likely to vote as progressives.
On a national level, I'm quite sure the California prop would have no such effect, because there is no calculation by which the state isn't pretty darn blue (maybe a rare district? that could be changed by a few voters?)
I'm sympathetic to the rights of minors generally though so, and 17 seemed within reason.
iris lilies
3-4-21, 8:11pm
I don't recall any handwringing at all but there may have been. When the voting age was lowered to 18 it was driven mostly by the idea that 18 year olds were being drafted and sent to Vietnam but didn't have the right to vote. Changing it actually required an amendment to the Constitution which I believe was ratified by the states in extremely short order and became law as the 26th Amendment. I was a senior in high school at the time.
So, I believe the difference between allowing 18 year old citizens to vote was based on the government conscripting 18 year olds and sending them to war without benefit of their representation, it's hard to argue against that. The current desire to lower it to 16 is because kids are more likely to vote as progressives. One of those things is not like the other.
Exactly! This is nicely said.
made sense back then, makes sense now.
Many minors have part-time jobs and pay taxes. Our country was founded on no taxation without representation. Anyone old enough to work and pay payroll taxes should have the right to vote. I would not extend this to sales tax. A little kid buying a pack of gum should not have the right to vote.
By that logic, should foreign nationals who work and pay taxes have the right to vote here?
By that logic, should foreign nationals who work and pay taxes have the right to vote here?
No. They chose to come here. I didn’t have any say in being born here.
By that logic, should foreign nationals who work and pay taxes have the right to vote here?
If they are here and working legally (green card) they will be able to become citizens and to vote, and perhaps that 5 year process should be shortened. I would not oppose local governments giving them the right to vote, for example in school board elections.
If they are here illegally and taxes are being withheld from their checks based on stolen or falsified social security numbers then no they should not be able to vote.
I made a fair chunk of change, and filed taxes, when I was 10, doing various small-town jobs. I would have been a voting fiend!
GeorgeParker
3-4-21, 9:03pm
I see that a proposed amendment to HR 1 that would have included lowering the voting age to sixteen failed to pass, although the majority of Democrats voted in favor. Am I a dirty vote suppression villain for thinking that’s a good thing?No. 16 is too young.
However the dirty filthy vote-suppressing people who want to raise the voting age from 18 to 21 (where it was pre-Vietnam) are equally wrong. And their logic that we should raise the voting age because teens vote emotionally, or don't take it seriously, or vote based on peer pressure is totally illogical. Probably 70-80% of all the adults who vote decide who they're going to vote for because of peer pressure or emotion or the only reason they vote is because they feel like they have to vote because it's their duty.
And the other big reason for raising the voting age to 21 is even dumber: "Hardly anyone under 21 votes anyway, so we might as well raise it to 21." If hardly anyone under 21 votes, there's no compelling reason for raising the voting age, and yet I've seen low participation listed during several campaigns as a "reason" for raising the age to 21.
Relevant Cultural Reference: The movie Wild in the Streets (1968) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRLwV2xafpk
17 year olds can serve in the US military with parental consent and some do.
17 year olds can serve in the US military with parental consent and some do.
Yes, but they are not eligible for duty in a combat capacity or zone.
GeorgeParker
3-4-21, 9:24pm
Yes, but they are not eligible for duty in a combat capacity or zone.And they're not being drafted as 18-19 year olds were in the 1960s.
Yes, but they are not eligible for duty in a combat capacity or zone.
I would hope even if operating in auxiliary capacities that they would be deemed to have good judgment, which is the quality we hope for in voters. It's also a quality exhibited by successfully employed people, including those working part-time or during summer breaks from school.
ApatheticNoMore
3-4-21, 9:32pm
The exact age is of course ultimately arbitrary, it's like all such artificial lines that are really continuums, it doesn't really exist in reality, that at one point you are too immature and then wham you aren't anymore. We just have to make some rule is all.
But these are the people that for some reason we think are wise enough to not only choose a college and a major (oh yea the type of thing they'll be deciding by 17) but for some reason sign up for buckets of debt to pay for it as well. And if they are still paying for it in their 40s, oh well should have known better then. Really?
And btw it isn't that young people are stupid or even reckless and irresponsible, some are, many aren't, and the same can be said for those over 18, but they do seriously lack experience in how the world works in many cases. That's for real.
But these are the people that for some reason we think are wise enough to not only choose a college and a major (oh yea the type of thing they'll be deciding by 17) but for some reason sign up for buckets of debt to pay for it as well. And if they are still paying for it in their 40s, oh well should have known better then. Really?
Do they give student loans to kids too young to sign a binding contract in California?
ApatheticNoMore
3-4-21, 9:43pm
I don't know, the truth is many people will NOT be 18 by the time they start college, depending on birthdays (and that's not even assuming they skipped a grade).
And they will CERTAINLY NOT be 18 when they are deciding on a college and thus frankly deciding on a major expense, when the purchasing decision is being made. Parents may sign for them and will give them advice, but a lot of people have parents who don't act in their long term best interest is the thing.
GeorgeParker
3-4-21, 9:50pm
But these are the people that for some reason we think are wise enough to not only choose a college and a major (oh yea the type of thing they'll be deciding by 17) but for some reason sign up for buckets of debt to pay for it as well. And if they are still paying for it in their 40s, oh well should have known better then. Really?If they make a bad college major choice it's usually because they've been pumped full of bad advice by "helpful" adults who are often basing their advice on which careers seem to be hot at the moment or which careers are most prestigious, with no regard to what a teenager's biggest talents or interests are.
And if they take on too much debt it's because their parents and relatives and teachers, who are all older and more experienced, never taught them the facts of life regarding debt, compounding interest, and living within your means.
ApatheticNoMore
3-4-21, 9:55pm
If they make a bad college major choice it's usually because they've been pumped full of bad advice by "helpful" adults who are often basing their advice on which careers seem to be hot at the moment or which careers are most prestigious, with no regard to what a teenager's biggest talents or interests are.
That's really almost a best case scenario, the adults may be basing their advice on what careers were hot 10, 20, 30 years ago.
GeorgeParker
3-4-21, 10:07pm
That's really almost a best case scenario, the adults may be basing their advice on what careers were hot 10, 20, 30 years ago.I've got one word for you, just one word: PLASTICS!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSxihhBzCjk
I've got one word for you, just one word: PLASTICS!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSxihhBzCjk
If only college was as cheap now as it was back then.
ToomuchStuff
3-5-21, 9:41am
So they want to give 16 year olds the right to vote, yet at the same time, they can no longer own property, like cars? I do agree, age has nothing to do with maturity, we all probably know someone we would trust their judgement more then someone older.
gimmethesimplelife
3-5-21, 11:17am
I hope 16 and 17 years old do get the right to vote. Human lives may be saved as young people tend to be liberal - meaning better chances of life saving aid being implemented. Rob
GeorgeParker
3-5-21, 11:49am
So they want to give 16 year olds the right to vote, yet at the same time, they can no longer own property, like cars?Sixteen year olds can't own cars or anything else because they can't sign a legally binding contract. Legally cars and other things with a title document have to be in their parents name, and legally even if a teenager has a job and buys a car with the money they earn, their parents can take it away or sell it because legally it doesn't belong to the teenager. You have to be of legal age to sign a legally binding contract. That's been the law for decades.
I am in the "if you serve in the military, you should be able to vote" camp - be that with parental signature or not. I mean, if you face dying for your country, you would be able to vote.
With hesitations on my own part, I also think the same with regards to alcohol. If you are serving and can fight/die for your country, I'm thinking you should be able to have a beer.
I am in the "if you serve in the military, you should be able to vote" camp - be that with parental signature or not. I mean, if you face dying for your country, you would be able to vote.
With hesitations on my own part, I also think the same with regards to alcohol. If you are serving and can fight/die for your country, I'm thinking you should be able to have a beer.I agree with this. If someone were to propose a constitutional amendment to allow young active duty service members all the rights and responsibilities of adulthood I'd be for it.
Sixteen year olds can't own cars or anything else because they can't sign a legally binding contract. Legally cars and other things with a title document have to be in their parents name,
No. Minors can own real estate, for instance. They just can't convey or encumber it because they can't contract. Minors can own stock, and have IRAs, but of course, there's the tricky business of how to open a brokerage account for some account types.
In some states they can own and title cars, but again, there's the issue of the contracts to get into that situation. In the state of Washington, they cannot own cars. In Texas, yee haw, they can.
And minors can of course own property they have acquired without contract, and parents don't "own" that item. They have certain abilities to take temporary custodial control of the item, but the parents can (and have been) nailed for theft if they permanently swipe it.
Teacher Terry
3-5-21, 2:31pm
Totally agree Happy!
GeorgeParker
3-5-21, 4:08pm
No. Minors can own...Since I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on television, I'll take your word for it. All I know for sure is the laws I grew up with and what I was taught in the Introduction To Commercial Law class I had to take in trade school in 1970. But I do believe several of the things you mention actually require an adult signature and are considered a "custodial account for the benefit of..." so that legally the adult controls it and signs the contracts but they have a fiduciary responsibility to the minor.
Since I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on television, I'll take your word for it. All I know for sure is the laws I grew up with and what I was taught in the Introduction To Commercial Law class I had to take in trade school in 1970.
I would encourage you to consult with real estate/wills/trusts/estate lawyers if this ever becomes a real concern for you, rather than relying on your non-professional memory of a class you took > 50 years ago.
(Hint: my minor-aged daughter ended up on the title of a piece of real estate some years ago, and it was a bit of a pickle to sort it out... If you have children likely to inherit such things, it's best to plan ahead... Other hint: my in-house attorney was involved in a parent-vs-child who-owns-the-possession lawsuit, and I didn't make up the example of "theft" from whole cloth...)
GeorgeParker
3-5-21, 8:05pm
I would encourage you to consult with real estate/wills/trusts/estate lawyers if this ever becomes a real concern for you, rather than relying on your non-professional memory of a class you took > 50 years ago.Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa. I did something that always annoys me when other people do it and which I often complain about. I made a statement based on out-of-date information that only applies in some places and not universally. Here is a bit of clarity on the question of minors owning a car: https://www.carinsurance.com/what-age-can-teen-own-car.aspx
And while (as I said) a parent or guardian dealing with property owned by a minor or on behalf of a minor has a fiduciary duty to act in the best interest of the minor, I was wrong in saying the title of the property has to be in the adult's name. Sometimes it does, sometimes not, but the adult always has that fiduciary duty to act in the minor's best interest with regard to the property. Definition of fiduciary duty: https://definitions.uslegal.com/b/breach-of-fiduciary-duty/
Situations like this is why you should always consult a professional even if everybody in an internet forum agrees on what the answer to a question is.
Chicken lady
3-5-21, 8:06pm
A loooong time ago when people wrote checks for things, I tried to help my 16 y.o. Open a checking account and a savings account. I was required to be on the savings account with her. They wouldn’t put her name on a checking account at all because it turned out that a 16 y.o. In my state couldn’t legally write a check! (They did let my 14 y.o. Son sign the slip for my credit card at the pizza place though. My name is not gender neutral.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.