View Full Version : Selfish
I have heard various comments about selfishness throughout my life. My mother used to say people who don't have children are selfish and I would think having a kid to be your mini me (especially with men who are more likely to name the child after themselves) is selfish. Having a child when the world is overpopulated is selfish.
Later my mother told me if I had a boyfriend my son did not like I was selfish.
Some people say if a person doesn't want to pay a certain level of taxes they are selfish.
While I have not socialized indoors with anyone outside my household since the pandemic began, violated any restrictions other than occasionally walking outside by myself in isolated areas without a mask (and my state has many restrictions), or travelled, there are people who do these things and call me selfish.
Does it bother you if people call you selfish? It doesn't bother me.
GeorgeParker
3-10-21, 6:06pm
Does it bother you if people call you selfish?Only if I really am being selfish and my behavior is having an impact on them. If they're just complaining because they're not getting what they want and I know my conduct is ethical, I figure they're the one being selfish. And if they're just complaining on general principles because I have more than some other people or because of the way I choose to spend my time or money, I figure it's none of their business.
iris lilies
3-10-21, 6:52pm
If we are “bothered” by it, the bother should be because our behavior was not in line with our values.
So sometimes when I do bad and it is pointed out, I feel bad because it WAS bad according to my values. Other times someone might point out my bad behavior and I may disagree that it was “ bad.” Or, I may think the consequences were worth the “ bad” behavior.
Jane v2.0
3-11-21, 10:14pm
I haven't been called selfish--to my face anyway--in all my adult life.
I agree with Iris Lily--as long as my actions line up with my values, I'm good. If not, I try to self-correct.
If that doesn't work, I default to Catholic guilt.
If anyone calls me selfish, they simply do not know me or my husband. Our time and money are fully and quietly donated to the curated causes we believe in. We feel blessed and know that others may not have the same ability. It is kind of interesting living well under what we could spend as others figure we are somewhat poor and do not often approach us for funds (except for the panhandlers downtown).
If they call me selfish because they "believe" we hoard or do not spread our gifts, that is their problem and I do not care. In fact, I suspect they want something and are trying to guilt us. I did not put our names on the X-ray machine we bought for the spay/neuter clinic or the money we gave to start their vaccine program. My husband does not tell anyone about the funds he gives to the groups he works with each year.
I haven't been called selfish--to my face anyway--in all my adult life.
I agree with Iris Lily--as long as my actions line up with my values, I'm good. If not, I try to self-correct.
If that doesn't work, I default to Catholic guilt.
Perfectly describes my thoughts on the subject.
Accusing someone of selfishness can be a form of manipulation to get them to do what you want. In other words, my brother has accused me of being selfish, but only when I wouldn't bail him out of an alcoholic bender.
Perfectly describes my thoughts on the subject.
Accusing someone of selfishness can be a form of manipulation to get them to do what you want. In other words, my brother has accused me of being selfish, but only when I wouldn't bail him out of an alcoholic bender.
True. It has also been my experience that people call others selfish or greedy when they want something from them. There are whole political and social movements based on that premise
happystuff
3-12-21, 9:52am
True. It has also been my experience that people call others selfish or greedy when they want something from them. There are whole political and social movements based on that premise
True. But then, sadly, there are just some people that are truly selfish.
Perfectly describes my thoughts on the subject.
Accusing someone of selfishness can be a form of manipulation to get them to do what you want. In other words, my brother has accused me of being selfish, but only when I wouldn't bail him out of an alcoholic bender.
I have noticed the same behavior in my family, that they accuse me of being selfish when they are asking me to do things that they don't want to do but can do for themselves, and somehow have assigned me the role of clean up person, do their dirty work for them, or clean up the messes resulting from their laziness.
True. But then, sadly, there are just some people that are truly selfish.
But that’s such a subjective and frequently self-interested judgment that I prefer to let others cast the first stone.
happystuff
3-12-21, 11:30am
But that’s such a subjective and frequently self-interested judgment that I prefer to let others cast the first stone.
Interesting. In my opinion, perspective and motivation play a huge part and I've found those to be harder - if not impossible - to determine in someone else, so I'm left with examining myself - understanding that being objective of my own actions usually ends up being subjective. LOL.
iris lilies
3-12-21, 3:44pm
Any number of us indulge in actions that are selfish. That won’t make us a selfish person overall, it’s the balance of our actions that count. So, unless we know someone well, I think it’s wrong to “judge “that person as selfish. I think it’s perfectly reasonable and logical to judge a particular action by that person as a selfish action.
Most people aren’t selfish or at least they don’t intend to be. Narcissists are excepted.
Apparently the selfish label doesn't bother BikingLady who cuts the line to get vaccines intended for older, sicker, higher risk people who could die. Her health comes first ahead of everyone else's.
Or maybe a better word is shameless. Lots of selfish people hide their selfish acts, they don't come out and tell you how they cheat and lie to get ahead.
Some Stuff Contrary To Forum Guidelines.
I see, you've picked another victim to try to drive off the forums. Ah, memories.
iris lilies
3-25-21, 8:10pm
Jeppy, since so many of us here are so annoying to you in our selfishness and stupidity, consider that this forum probably isn’t good for your mental health. Taking yourself off of it may improve your outlook.
I like to put up false posts, editing people's words so what comes up in "Originally Posted By" is totally bogus.
You're so diabolically clever bae! I guess you are going for a Shameless Prize too.
You're so diabolically clever bae! I guess you are going for a Shameless Prize too.
I simply didn't want to repeat your personal attack on someone by quoting it. You know this.
(And I do so many things in real life that are quite Shameless that you are barking up the wrong tree...)
Jeppy, since so many of us here are so annoying to you in our selfishness and stupidity, consider that this forum probably isn’t good for your mental health. Taking yourself off of it may improve your outlook.
People not gaming the system to increase covid deaths in vulnerable populations would improve my outlook. But shameless people will not only do it but tell everyone about it as if it is a clever accomplishment, not apologize for it, and instead act like they are victims. But then again manipulators often do try to deflect attention from their misdeeds when they are criticized. Poor, poor pitiful me they say, or they cry. IL I remember when you made a legitimate post about a person repeatedly flogging a dead political horse and the person said "You made me cry" and you backed down. Poor, poor pitiful me. It's a good song by Linda Ronstadt but much less endearing when it comes to discourse.
iris lilies
3-25-21, 8:36pm
People not gaming the system to increase covid deaths in vulnerable populations would improve my outlook. But shameless people will not only do it but tell everyone about it as if it is a clever accomplishment, not apologize for it, and instead act like they are victims. But then again manipulators often do try to deflect attention from their misdeeds when they are criticized. Poor, poor pitiful me they say, or they cry. IL I remember when you made a legitimate post about a person repeatedly flogging a dead political horse and the person said "You made me cry" and you backed down. Poor, poor pitiful me. It's a good song by Linda Ronstadt but much less endearing when it comes to discourse.
Tone it down. Cut it out.
I simply didn't want to repeat your personal attack on someone by quoting it. You know this.
(And I do so many things in real life that are quite Shameless that you are barking up the wrong tree...)
When you repeatedly call me an idiot, say I work for Russia, and make other scurrilous remarks about me are you making a personal attack on me?
Yeppj, you're out of line. Those members who call you a troll are out of line. You're all out of line. Stop it!
rosarugosa
3-26-21, 5:48am
People not gaming the system to increase covid deaths in vulnerable populations would improve my outlook. But shameless people will not only do it but tell everyone about it as if it is a clever accomplishment, not apologize for it, and instead act like they are victims. But then again manipulators often do try to deflect attention from their misdeeds when they are criticized. Poor, poor pitiful me they say, or they cry. IL I remember when you made a legitimate post about a person repeatedly flogging a dead political horse and the person said "You made me cry" and you backed down. Poor, poor pitiful me. It's a good song by Linda Ronstadt but much less endearing when it comes to discourse.
I think a simple "I wouldn't feel OK about doing that" is about as judgmental as one should get on an online forum, and save the heavy-duty moralizing for raising one's own children. As for me, I wouldn't feel OK about browbeating another member of the forum for behavior I did not necessarily agree with, especially given that I myself am an imperfect human being.
I think a simple "I wouldn't feel OK about doing that" is about as judgmental as one should get on an online forum, and save the heavy-duty moralizing for raising one's own children.
My own child has turned out well. He suffers from extreme OCD and the lack of availability of disinfectant spray has been very hard on him. I told him he could get around the one per customer limit at stores by going through the self-checkout but he said he wouldn't do that as it wouldn't be fair to others. So he makes many trips to the store looking for disinfectant since you can't get it online at a reasonable price. Every time he goes out it is a major ordeal to disinfect himself when he gets back, wash his clothes, etc but he does it to be fair to others. He would never say that it is okay to lie or game the system to get what he wants. Often times the disinfectant sells out early in the morning and he could ask one of his grandparents to go during senior hours and get some for him but he does not though they would be more than happy to help him out.
We don't always like the rules - I certainly don't like mask rules - but I think a certain maturity is involved in realizing we do need to follow the rules until we can vote out the lawmakers we disagree with. There are always exceptions - it was honorable to flout the Nazi's anti-Semitic rules - but if the only thing at stake is one's self-interest it is a different story.
So yes I know what it is to have a disabled child I try to help during the pandemic. I don't believe it gives me a license to skirt the rules and lie if necessary. And I say this not because I am such a good person, yes I am imperfect as you note, but because despite everything my son is dealing with he shines a strong moral light out and it helps remind me we are (or should) all be in this together, and taking care of the least of us first.
happystuff
3-26-21, 10:51am
I don't believe it gives me a license to skirt the rules and lie if necessary.
Go back and read the thread as BikingLady did NOT skirt the rules. There were extra vaccines and they were available. She was there. They are doing the same in my area.
Again, I'm so sorry that you continue to have such a tough time with all the COVID life effects. I hope you can find some peace soon.
Go back and read the thread as BikingLady did NOT skirt the rules. There were extra vaccines and they were available. She was there. They are doing the same in my area.
Again, I'm so sorry that you continue to have such a tough time with all the COVID life effects. I hope you can find some peace soon.
She went with the intention of skirting the rules. That she didn't have to was accidental.
happystuff
3-26-21, 11:00am
She went with the intention of skirting the rules. That she didn't have to was accidental.
Well, again, she got lucky, didn't she. No rules broken regardless of intent.
Well, again, she got lucky, didn't she. No rules broken regardless of intent.
You're assuming no rules were broken based on the statement of someone who admits to being a liar when it comes to vaccines. You and I have no knowledge of whether this is true or an attempt to deflect criticism.
I like ice cream sundaes.
I like ice cream sundaes.
Ice cream sundaes are good especially drizzled with a fresh raspberry coulis.
happystuff
3-27-21, 9:23pm
You're assuming no rules were broken based on the statement of someone who admits to being a liar when it comes to vaccines. You and I have no knowledge of whether this is true or an attempt to deflect criticism.
So you are assuming rules were actually broken? (even though it has been stated that no rules were broken!) Why disparage someone based on a statement you have no knowledge of whether it is true or not?
happystuff
3-27-21, 9:31pm
I like ice cream sundaes.
I'm more a purist... plain chocolate ice cream. Sometimes, however, I will get daring and order a Dairy Queen Blizzard - chocolate with M&M's!
So you are assuming rules were actually broken? (even though it has been stated that no rules were broken!) Why disparage someone based on a statement you have no knowledge of whether it is true or not?
I'm just saying you can't accept the word of an admitted liar at face value. Of course we have no knowledge if it is true or not, that was exactly my point. Thank you for reinforcing it.
I'm more a purist... plain chocolate ice cream. Sometimes, however, I will get daring and order a Dairy Queen Blizzard - chocolate with M&M's!
Personally I prefer a chocolate shake. Made with chocolate ice cream and chocolate syrup!
happystuff
3-28-21, 9:33am
I'm just saying you can't accept the word of an admitted liar at face value. Of course we have no knowledge if it is true or not, that was exactly my point. Thank you for reinforcing it.
So, again, why disparage someone over something you don't know is true or not?
Edited to add: you also need to go back and re-read the thread as she never lied, so I guess you are lying by calling her a liar.
"I was never asked if I did so I really did not have to lie."
And with one final suggestion, I'm done with this... maybe you should concentrate more on your own words, comments and behaviors instead of going after others. Have a good day and I still hope you can fine some peace.
happystuff
3-28-21, 9:34am
Personally I prefer a chocolate shake. Made with chocolate ice cream and chocolate syrup!
When my kids were little and had dental work done, the treat was always a chocolate shake (of course, dentist approved and eaten with a spoon - dental work dependent)
So, again, why disparage someone over something you don't know is true or not?
Edited to add: you also need to go back and re-read the thread as she never lied, so I guess you are lying by calling her a liar.
"I was never asked if I did so I really did not have to lie."
And with one final suggestion, I'm done with this... maybe you should concentrate more on your own words, comments and behaviors instead of going after others. Have a good day and I still hope you can fine some peace.
Go back to the Getting the Vaccine thread. I have quoted the relevant posts for you.
So vaccine envy is a thing now? I see one of the children at “Slate” wrote a piece about those disgusting baby boomers who ruined everything getting jabbed ahead of the virtuous young.
Still seems like a fairly small thing to inspire a vendetta though.
Personally I prefer a chocolate shake. Made with chocolate ice cream and chocolate syrup!
Chocolate with reeses please!
So vaccine envy is a thing now? I see one of the children at “Slate” wrote a piece about those disgusting baby boomers who ruined everything getting jabbed ahead of the virtuous young.
Still seems like a fairly small thing to inspire a vendetta though.
Yes it is a thing. The next thing will be anger towards governments that do not let citizens return to normal once everyone who wants a vaccine gets one. Imagine if back in 1955 40% of people refused to get a polio vaccine and decades later swimming pools and other places were still closed because "we don't have herd immunity so we can't return to normal". People who don't care enough about their own health to get vaccinated should not prevent a return to normalcy for those of us who do. It should be go places and live life at your own risk.
happystuff
3-28-21, 4:24pm
Chocolate with reeses please!
DH loves the reeses pieces, but I could never get into them. Again, much prefer the M&Ms.
They had strawberries on sale at the market here today for $1/container, super-duper-ripe, so I made a lovely strawberry/chocolate sundae for lunch, though I used yogurt instead of ice cream.
I try not to keep ice cream in stock at the house, because someone here just eats it if it is handy.
They had strawberries on sale at the market here today for $1/container, super-duper-ripe, so I made a lovely strawberry/chocolate sundae for lunch, though I used yogurt instead of ice cream.
YUM!
People who don't care enough about their own health to get vaccinated should not prevent a return to normalcy for those of us who do. It should be go places and live life at your own risk.
And at other’s people’s risk as well? Should not employers and public or private facilities be able to exclude people unwilling to take rudimentary precautions?
And at other’s people’s risk as well? Should not employers and public or private facilities be able to exclude people unwilling to take rudimentary precautions?
Yes, organizations should be able to ban the unvaccinated, barring other legal agreements such as union contracts that have already negotiated the issue. There are other public sector situations where I can see the unvaccinated let in. If someone commits a murder are you not going to take them to court because they aren't vaccinated? Or not put them in jail? No.
But really the unvaccinated are only putting at risk the other unvaccinated. So especially once vaccines are available for children, pregnant women, etc that should be less and less of a concern.
There are reasonable precautions and there are silly ones. I think your murderer example falls in the silly category.
As to the unvaccinated only presenting a threat to the unvaccinated, I think that would only be true if vaccines were 100% effective and everyone else with the good sense to be vaccinated were already able to do so.
As to the unvaccinated only presenting a threat to the unvaccinated, ...
Well, there's the troublesome issue that the unvaccinated population provides a great breeding ground/hothouse for developing mutant variants that may prove to be able to evade the protection provided by the vaccine, so....
The unvaccinated also offer a safe harbor/reservoir for the virus to lurk, waiting for the protection provided by the vaccine to wear off, if it does....
Well, there's the troublesome issue that the unvaccinated population provides a great breeding ground/hothouse for developing mutant variants that may prove to be able to evade the protection provided by the vaccine, so....
The unvaccinated also offer a safe harbor/reservoir for the virus to lurk, waiting for the protection provided by the vaccine to wear off, if it does....
You might say refusal to be vaccinated constitutes volunteering to be a sort of Petri dish.
You might say refusal to be vaccinated constitutes volunteering to be a sort of Petri dish.
The problem is, once the stuff has brewed in that volunteer Petri dish, it may well be able to attack the rest of us, even if we have been vaccinated.
ApatheticNoMore
3-29-21, 2:30pm
Well much of the world is likely to provide a petri dish regardless of whether everyone in the U.S. got vaccinated or not, it may be years until many places have the vaccine, maybe some animal populations could provide a petri dish too, but certainly the human population of the rest of the world.
But we're lucky in this country to have the vaccine rolling out, oh I think so, no matter how disastrous was the rest of the pandemic response. Meanwhile people with this access will pass it down while people in many parts of the world only wish they had it.
Anthrax can lie dormant for 48 years. Covid could be the same but at some point life has to return to normal or we will all die prematurely from the stress of living in a constant state of fear and anxiety whipped up by the media and certain public health "experts" like Walensky who refuse to acknowledge data out of Israel and increasingly the US that once you're vaccinated if you don't get the virus (95% chance) you don't secretly get it and transmit it to people at the same time. Dr. Jha pretty much admitted the non-transmissibility this past weekend but said we are not 100% sure so the vaccinated must still wear masks. Well nothing in life is 100% sure. Go with the preponderance of the scientific evidence.
How this impacts me is next week I can sign up for the vaccine in my state but I am not going to because I will have a deductible for the administration fee. I will wait until I can get the vaccine free at work. If I could be freed of masks and other restrictions it would be worth it, but it is not. Since I am healthy, under 60, female and white I am not worried about covid and have zero incentive to pay for a vaccine if my life continues to be curtailed.
I now know quite a few people my age or older who have tested positive with mild to no symptoms. All the dire warnings by Walensky do not scare me because we are not seeing hospitals max out or anything. With the older sicker people vaccinated covid is now more like a flu.
More ice cream is clearly needed.
frugal-one
3-29-21, 6:32pm
More than ice cream, me thinks.
My favourite ice cream is real cream vanilla. It may have some fine slivers of milk chocolate added.
What is your favourite ice cream flavour?
Teacher Terry
3-29-21, 6:43pm
Yesterday I went to jack in the box for the teen working at my house. I had a chocolate shake with whipped cream on top and it was delicious!! It also was 800 calories. Ugh!
ApatheticNoMore
3-29-21, 6:47pm
How this impacts me is next week I can sign up for the vaccine in my state but I am not going to because I will have a deductible for the administration fee.
This is EXTREMELY unlikely to be true. Insurance plans (or Medicare/Medicaid) have to pay the administration fee as per the CARES act. There are a few pre-ACA ACA non-compliant plans that may be the exception, that's very rare and even then I believe it's free and they just don't bill the insurance company.
With the older sicker people vaccinated covid is now more like a flu.
And this is simply not true of course. Even the under 50 have a 37 times greater fatality from covid than flu. But that's 37 times a small number, sure it's about 500 for flu. The 50-64 age group has more like double the deaths just in that age group, that the entire population has in an average flu season.
rosarugosa
3-29-21, 7:40pm
I don't particularly dig ice cream anymore and wouldn't care if I never had it again.
I don't particularly dig ice cream anymore and wouldn't care if I never had it again.
How do you feel about aebleskiver?
ApatheticNoMore
3-29-21, 7:49pm
It's great, my Danish, mother in law*, makes it, made it just for mentioning it at one point during the endless pandemic with homemade berry jam.
* though I'm not married
healthy though? no
rosarugosa
3-29-21, 7:50pm
How do you feel about aebleskiver?
I could take them or leave them. DH has a pan but it doesn't get used much. I'm not a big donut fan, but can enjoy one every now and then, and they seem pretty much like tiny donuts to me.
ApatheticNoMore
3-29-21, 7:51pm
no they are tiny fat fluffy pancakes :P
I could take them or leave them. DH has a pan but it doesn't get used much. I'm not a big donut fan, but can enjoy one every now and then, and they seem pretty much like tiny donuts to me.
When my daughter makes them, she somehow arranges to put yummy fillings inside. Sometimes she makes savory ones too.
I myself am suspicious of dishes that require special one-use-only cookware.
happystuff
3-30-21, 10:37am
All this talk of ice cream reminds me of this commercial:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDAg3VkZPg8
I love the look on the daughter's face! LOL
This is EXTREMELY unlikely to be true. Insurance plans (or Medicare/Medicaid) have to pay the administration fee as per the CARES act. There are a few pre-ACA ACA non-compliant plans that may be the exception, that's very rare and even then I believe it's free and they just don't bill the insurance company.
And this is simply not true of course. Even the under 50 have a 37 times greater fatality from covid than flu. But that's 37 times a small number, sure it's about 500 for flu. The 50-64 age group has more like double the deaths just in that age group, that the entire population has in an average flu season.
And don't forget the "long-haulers." You don't have to die to be adversely affected by this, unlike the flu.
I adore everything about that commercial!
If I were pressed, I'd choose ice cream as my favorite dessert. I especially like boozy versions like rum raisin or bourbon. I also like coconut, lemon custard, Cherry Garcia, and--lately--vanilla.
There may be tons of people who get the flu and we never know because they are asymptomatic so we don't test them. If everyone were tested for the seasonal flu it just might be labelled a pandemic also.
happystuff
3-30-21, 11:04am
I adore everything about that commercial!
If I were pressed, I'd choose ice cream as my favorite dessert. I especially like boozy versions like rum raisin or bourbon. I also like coconut, lemon custard, Cherry Garcia, and--lately--vanilla.
They have preset music at the warehouse that I usually don't pay much attention to. The other night I heard something very familiar... turned out to be the actual/real version of the song by these guys! Too funny.
Teacher Terry
3-30-21, 12:32pm
I think that I will have another 800 calorie chocolate shake today as I am still losing weight and I don’t want to lose anymore. I bought a bunch of new clothes from Chico’s and paid 550 to have my top teeth made smaller:))
And don't forget the "long-haulers." You don't have to die to be adversely affected by this, unlike the flu.
My poor niece, I fear, will mentally turn out to be a long-hauler, as she lost the baby she'd been trying so hard to have for years to covid.
happystuff
3-30-21, 1:26pm
My poor niece, I fear, will mentally turn out to be a long-hauler, as she lost the baby she'd been trying so hard to have for years to covid.
Oh, bae! I'm so sorry. My condolences and prayers to your niece and everyone.
My poor niece, I fear, will mentally turn out to be a long-hauler, as she lost the baby she'd been trying so hard to have for years to covid.
That is tragic to hear. My condolences to all the family as a baby is so treasured by everyone.
Teacher Terry
3-30-21, 1:53pm
Bae, that’s heartbreaking news. I really hope she can conceive in the future.
My poor niece, I fear, will mentally turn out to be a long-hauler, as she lost the baby she'd been trying so hard to have for years to covid.
I am so very sorry Bae.
My poor niece, I fear, will mentally turn out to be a long-hauler, as she lost the baby she'd been trying so hard to have for years to covid.
So sorry.
I'm sorry. Too many tragedies associated with this thing.
Everyone is self-ish..... everyone should and needs to take care of themselves - this is usually considered as self-ish. If you don't take care of your own needs then you cannot effectively help someone else. We need to keep ourselves strong and our needs met in order to help someone else. Some folks take that overboard and cannot tell where what they need and what they want start and end. Someone told me long ago... and I remember this quite often.
The person with 100 coats hanging in a closet - can only wear one at a time.
The person sitting outside freezing that came into your house and "stole" a coat....... did not actually steal a coat from you...... you stole it from them and hoarded it away so that they could not have it. They were only taking what was rightfully theirs.
Perhaps I didn't write that well enough for you to understand but for me it really made me look at myself and my possessions and my thoughts - and I became a more giving person. I only take what I need - I give what I can - yet I do my best not to go without - or to give all of myself to someone that will only use and not contribute to the well being of another.
Rambling here. LOL..... need to stop.... :)
happystuff
4-2-21, 10:24am
Everyone is self-ish..... everyone should and needs to take care of themselves - this is usually considered as self-ish. If you don't take care of your own needs then you cannot effectively help someone else. We need to keep ourselves strong and our needs met in order to help someone else. Some folks take that overboard and cannot tell where what they need and what they want start and end. Someone told me long ago... and I remember this quite often.
The person with 100 coats hanging in a closet - can only wear one at a time.
The person sitting outside freezing that came into your house and "stole" a coat....... did not actually steal a coat from you...... you stole it from them and hoarded it away so that they could not have it. They were only taking what was rightfully theirs.
Perhaps I didn't write that well enough for you to understand but for me it really made me look at myself and my possessions and my thoughts - and I became a more giving person. I only take what I need - I give what I can - yet I do my best not to go without - or to give all of myself to someone that will only use and not contribute to the well being of another.
Rambling here. LOL..... need to stop.... :)
I understand - nicely said. Thanks for sharing.
People have been batting around the “Property is theft” thing since Proudhon. The people on the left criticized it on the basis that there is no such thing as property. The people on the right view property as an important element of personal liberty.
As for me, I recognize an obligation to my fellow man, but I don’t think it can be reduced to a simple utilitarian algorithm in a zero sum system.
The person with 100 coats hanging in a closet - can only wear one at a time.
The person sitting outside freezing that came into your house and "stole" a coat....... did not actually steal a coat from you...... you stole it from them and hoarded it away so that they could not have it. They were only taking what was rightfully theirs.
I have four bedrooms in my house. I am only using two of them. There are people in my community sitting outside freezing. Are those bedrooms rightfully theirs? Did I steal them from those folks, and hoard the rooms away?
I have a friend who has 50 sweaters sitting in her farmhouse. She only wears one. Is she hoarding those sweaters away from other people, after having stolen the sweaters from all the cold people outside? I mean, she went to a whole lot of effort to steal them - she raised the sheep, processed the wool, spun it into yard, dyed the yarn, and knitted the sweaters. (Yes, I know, "she didn't knit those sweaters...") Her evil hoarding plan is to sell those sweaters, the yarn, and the meat from some of the sheep to other folks, she's such a capitalist oppressor.
Teacher Terry
4-3-21, 11:28am
Most people on the left are as protective of their property as anyone else. Ldahl, you make assumptions that make my head hurt.
Everyone is self-ish..... everyone should and needs to take care of themselves - this is usually considered as self-ish. If you don't take care of your own needs then you cannot effectively help someone else. We need to keep ourselves strong and our needs met in order to help someone else. Some folks take that overboard and cannot tell where what they need and what they want start and end. Someone told me long ago... and I remember this quite often.
The person with 100 coats hanging in a closet - can only wear one at a time.
The person sitting outside freezing that came into your house and "stole" a coat....... did not actually steal a coat from you...... you stole it from them and hoarded it away so that they could not have it. They were only taking what was rightfully theirs.
Perhaps I didn't write that well enough for you to understand but for me it really made me look at myself and my possessions and my thoughts - and I became a more giving person. I only take what I need - I give what I can - yet I do my best not to go without - or to give all of myself to someone that will only use and not contribute to the well being of another.
Rambling here. LOL..... need to stop.... :)
You don't seem rambling here, but rather trying to shame people with more than one coat. Since I have more than one winter coat, I'll take the bait!
I had one brown down jacket I bought at a yard sale for 2 dollars and wore for 3 years. It was great--super warm, and I went outside and dog walked in it, so it had rips in the pockets where dog treats would fall out, and they could jump up with muddy paws and it did not matter.
It got thrown out when the tear situation got too extreme.
I have a down LL Bean coat my dad bought me as a present so I would not be cold when I moved to Michigan. He bought it for me eight years ago. He loved me and now he is gone. So should I give this coat away. even though I don't wear it very much because I want to preserve how nice it is?
I have a black down jacket that I bought at Target a few years ago for 35 dollars and it was suitable for going places and not looking dirty or bummish. I bought it so I could fly on an airplane to see my kids and not be suspected of being a bum, some sort of threat. It made me look presentable, but it's getting worn now.
I have two polyester down coats I bought at Walmart for 19 dollars each so that I have something to walk the dogs in and work in yard in, or go to town in if I wear the lighter one, so it does not look filthy. The zippers don't work right so they are always stuck.
So that is my winter coat situation. I see people buying coats at yard sales for 2 dollars all the time, so I know they can get coats if they can get to yard sales--my husband's coat costs 5 dollars and is down and really nice.
I see other people with limited means at Walmart buying coats where I buy mine.
I'm just baffled that this means I have stolen coats from others. Can you explain further?
Thrift stores are brimming with serviceable clothing. I know St. Vincent de Paul, for one, distributes items free of charge to people in need.
I have a lot of clothes--mostly bought used--that will go back to the thrift stream when I am through with them. I don't respond well--at all, really--to attempts at shaming.
I will support varrs' point of view with modifications. There is no way in hell people are going to buy into the idea that things they don't need in their homes are stolen property. That's a tough argument. But how about this...
As most of you know I did my big purge a couple of years ago. In my basement I had a Little Mermaid costume my daughter (now 35) wore for Halloween when she was 7. I also had the little suit that my son (now 36) wore for a movie premiere when he was 7. Every now and then when I was in the basement those things in particular would catch my eye and I would think, wouldn't someone else get a lot of use and pleasure from those two things? Why do I keep them here dusty and rotting away? It's not so much that I feel that other people are entitled to my stuff, or technically "own" my stuff that I "stole"--I consider it something that I need to work on if I can't find it in my heart to let go of things that might serve the needs of other people.
It's funny--in another thread I referenced Dietrich Bonhoeffer's book, The Cost of Discipleship, and in the chapter called "The Simplicity of the Carefree Life" he says:
"Earthly goods are given to be used, not to be collected. In the wilderness God gave Israel the manna every day, and they had no need to worry about food and drink. Indeed, if they keep any of the manna over until the next day, it went bad. In the same way, the disciple must receive his portion from God every day. If he stores it up as a permanent possession, he spoils not only the gift, but himself as well, for he sets his heart on his accumulated wealth, and make it a barrier between himself and God. Where our treasure is, there is our trust, our security, our consolation and our God. Hoarding is idolatry."
I know I'm going to take a bashing for that quote, and it really does belong in the Spirituality forum, but I think it kind of gets at what varrs was saying.
ETA: BTW, those items did not make the cut in The Purge. They are STILL in my NJ home basement. So I'm not shaming anyone for owning anything--if I were to shame someone, I'd start with myself.
iris lilies
4-3-21, 12:08pm
If I buy 1 fewer coats that doesn’t magically transfer to a poor person getting a coat.
But I think the coat parable is more about us paying attention to “enough” and sharing our excess.
We here on this board do understand the concept of “enough” and we even lament, regularly, the “excess” in our lives that drag us down.
Teacher Terry
4-3-21, 12:09pm
I am perfect in the coat department:)). I will just add that ribbon to my purging one:)). One winter and one spring and fall. But I don’t do any type of activities that require old coats that can get dirty. Even when I had my big old dog he never jumped on me so I could walk him in my good coat. I have to admit that I had coat excess but donated them. Plus losing a total of 50lbs necessitated a new wardrobe. When it was time to help my ex get rid of his junk I had no old clothes so wore one of his T-shirts but had to wear a expensive pair of jeans from Chico’s. Ugh! Looking back I should have went to Walmart and bought a pair of sweatpants.
Most people on the left are as protective of their property as anyone else. Ldahl, you make assumptions that make my head hurt.
That was Marx’s criticism of Proudhon, and I always thought he was pretty lefty. Although I do agree with you that there are plenty of people on the left vigorously preserving their wealth and privilege while preaching about the evils of wealth and privilege.
iris lilies
4-3-21, 12:18pm
I bestowed my Daddy Joe windfall, $1400, upon my neighborhood association yesterday. So, Joe should be happy with that transfer of wealth.
Due to our problematic new website, I had to get the treasurer and the web builder involved because I couldn’t make the “Donate” button work. Methinks we are having technical problems there which of course means even less money flowing into our already depleted coffers.
But hey, 5% of our house tour take (virtual house tour) will go to human charities, so yay? The do-gooders in our ‘nabe seem unable to keep their hands off other-peoples’-money. See, I am capable of giving to human charities should I wish to do that. I don’t. And it pizzes me off that any part of my windfall goes to charities outside of my neighborhood.
edited to add: yes! My post fits in this thread. Read the title. I feel no shame.
But I think the coat parable is more about us paying attention to “enough” and sharing our excess.
We here on this board do understand the concept of “enough” and we even lament, regularly, the “excess” in our lives that drag us down.
Agreed.
happystuff
4-3-21, 12:27pm
If I buy 1 fewer coats that doesn’t magically transfer to a poor person getting a coat.
But I think the coat parable is more about us paying attention to “enough” and sharing our excess.
We here on this board do understand the concept of “enough” and we even lament, regularly, the “excess” in our lives that drag us down.
Also agree and with what catherine said. Nice explanations.
ApatheticNoMore
4-3-21, 12:30pm
I don't own a coat haha, for obvious reasons. Though really I don't even own a jacket and that's a bit much.
Most people on the left like most people period, don't own any property to speak of. And then one might say: well maybe they own their home, yea the home they live in, that is not any property to speak of.
"See, I am capable of giving to human charities should I wish to do that." (IL)
I give most of my charitable monies to animal charities that do demonstrable good, as well.
I rarely wear coats, but do have a couple of lightweight ones, just in case.
iris lilies
4-3-21, 1:03pm
"See, I am capable of giving to human charities should I wish to do that." (IL)
I give most of my charitable monies to animal charities that do demonstrable good, as well.
I rarely wear coats, but do have a couple of lightweight ones, just in case.
Sadly for you all, this is a boring hobbyhorse topic for me, Iris lilies.
As sometimes happens in my life, if I complain and complain and complain about something enough times it gradually recedes from the top of my head and goes into the background of my life. Let’s hope this happens with this issue, this is my self counseling space.
But I’m not done complaining about the fact that my fellow board members have their hands in my neighborhood’s general fund. It. Pizzes. Me. Off.
To be fair, one of the stated Purposes in our bylaws is “to coordinate and work with communities that are adjacent [to our neighborhood.]” but that doesnt mean necessarily welfare handouts. There are a thousand and one ways to “work with” those communities.
We have a line item budget for it of a few thousand dollars but nooooopp that isnt enough, now we have to give 5% of our proceeds to these do-gooder efforts.
And oh yeah—the giant fundraiser has been reduced in effectiveness so much that we are now spending $25,000 to net $40,000. While I will not denigrate those who are planning this major fundraiser because it’s uncharted territory in Covid times and is entirely new, I will fault the idea that we’re going to make so much money that we can give away our profit.
But I’m not done complaining about the fact that my fellow board members have their hands in my neighborhood’s general fund. It. Pizzes. Me. Off.
My rural electrical power cooperative, a non-profit, member-owned power company that is the only grid-source of power here, for years had a voluntary "round up" program for your power bill - you could elect to pay a bit more, and the extra money would be used to help low-income folks who were having problems paying their power bill. So far so good.
Well, the need was great, and not enough members were voluntarily contributing to satisfy the tastes of the rather-well-insulated Board, so they decided, on their own....to add a non-voluntary surcharge onto every bill. Raises a fair bit of money. Which they give away, at their whim, to "worthy causes"....
Due to the structure of the organization, it is nearly impossible to replace board members, and thus we are involuntarily taxed. I simply reduced my charitable contributions accordingly.
This power company, with yearly revenues of ~$27 million, pays its general manager ~$400k/year with all benefits included, the next two top employees rake in > $200k each. This is ~10x the median salary on the island...
The directors pay themselves ~$15k-$30k/year, plus medical benefits. They have one meeting a month...
Yet they make my Mom, who lives on Social Security, pay a fee each month "to help out others". Or they'll cut off her power and leave her cold and in the dark.
iris lilies
4-3-21, 2:05pm
Bae yours is a ridiculous example of that same thing I complain about.
Unfortunately I cannot reduce my charitable giving in an appropriate amount because I do not give to human charities other than through my tax dollars which fund all kinds of human services programs.
I did however target my daddy Joe’s windfall to my neighborhood association’s specific funds, keeping it well out of the big fundraiser income line. I haven’t yet decided if I will give any money to the big fundraiser. I donated crap, but that is crap I had to get rid of anyway.
Teacher Terry
4-3-21, 4:06pm
Bae, that’s the type of thing where a good original idea takes a turn for the worse. IL, your neighborhood organization should stay focused on the original mission instead of expanding. I can see why you aren’t happy with that.
My rural electrical power cooperative, a non-profit, member-owned power company that is the only grid-source of power here, for years had a voluntary "round up" program for your power bill - you could elect to pay a bit more, and the extra money would be used to help low-income folks who were having problems paying their power bill. So far so good.
Well, the need was great, and not enough members were voluntarily contributing to satisfy the tastes of the rather-well-insulated Board, so they decided, on their own....to add a non-voluntary surcharge onto every bill. Raises a fair bit of money. Which they give away, at their whim, to "worthy causes"....
Due to the structure of the organization, it is nearly impossible to replace board members, and thus we are involuntarily taxed. I simply reduced my charitable contributions accordingly.
This power company, with yearly revenues of ~$27 million, pays its general manager ~$400k/year with all benefits included, the next two top employees rake in > $200k each. This is ~10x the median salary on the island...
The directors pay themselves ~$15k-$30k/year, plus medical benefits. They have one meeting a month...
Yet they make my Mom, who lives on Social Security, pay a fee each month "to help out others". Or they'll cut off her power and leave her cold and in the dark.
We have the same here. It reeks to say the least.
My rural electrical power cooperative, a non-profit, member-owned power company that is the only grid-source of power here, for years had a voluntary "round up" program for your power bill - you could elect to pay a bit more, and the extra money would be used to help low-income folks who were having problems paying their power bill. So far so good.
Well, the need was great, and not enough members were voluntarily contributing to satisfy the tastes of the rather-well-insulated Board, so they decided, on their own....to add a non-voluntary surcharge onto every bill. Raises a fair bit of money. Which they give away, at their whim, to "worthy causes"....
Due to the structure of the organization, it is nearly impossible to replace board members, and thus we are involuntarily taxed. I simply reduced my charitable contributions accordingly.
This power company, with yearly revenues of ~$27 million, pays its general manager ~$400k/year with all benefits included, the next two top employees rake in > $200k each. This is ~10x the median salary on the island...
The directors pay themselves ~$15k-$30k/year, plus medical benefits. They have one meeting a month...
Yet they make my Mom, who lives on Social Security, pay a fee each month "to help out others". Or they'll cut off her power and leave her cold and in the dark.
I’ve seen this sort of thing happen as well. One thing I’ve learned is that when someone starts babbling about “stakeholders” you can expect some creative malfeasance.
Thrift stores are brimming with serviceable clothing. I know St. Vincent de Paul, for one, distributes items free of charge to people in need.
I have a lot of clothes--mostly bought used--that will go back to the thrift stream when I am through with them. I don't respond well--at all, really--to attempts at shaming.
Exactly. People will not break into your house because they need a coat. They will break in to steal items that can be easily sold in order to fund their drug addictions.
Exactly. People will not break into your house because they need a coat. They will break in to steal items that can be easily sold in order to fund their drug addictions.
I think you're missing the point.
I think you're missing the point.
The point as I read it is that people can get free clothes from charities. There is no need for them to steal them in order to have something to wear. I have heard of people being mugged for their sneakers but that is because they have resale value and not because the thief is barefoot.
The point as I read it is that people can get free clothes from charities. There is no need for them to steal them in order to have something to wear. I have heard of people being mugged for their sneakers but that is because they have resale value and not because the thief is barefoot.
Oh, I thought you were referring back to varrs musing that if she keeps a coat she does need in her closet she's "stolen" it from people who might need it.
Let’s do the Trolley Problem next. Or Peter Singer’s drowning child.
Let’s do the Trolley Problem next. Or Peter Singer’s drowning child.
I really like Peter Singer, so I'm game for a good discussion if you are... :)
ETA this video of Peter Singer talking about whether or not billionaires are immoral--an interesting 15 minutes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYgMtZODcVQ
I personally have a couple of problems with Singer. Perhaps most fundamentally, he never really seems to make the argument that justifies his premise that we must consider the interests of any life he wishes to call “sentient”. Nor does his expansive consequentialism provide much by way of tools for analysis of what all those best interests may be. Can we save a polar bear without considering the interests of the neighboring seals? If we provide aid to the starving child, must we consider whether that merely prolongs his agony? Singer just grandly makes assumptions about immediate impacts, but to me if you’re going to reduce morality to a calculation you need to get the math right.
He seems to exult in the kind of deontological shark-jumping that will get him attention. Privileging animal over human life in some cases, advocating euthanasia for the unworthy. He mistakes eyeballs for intellectual heft. He once referred to himself as the world’s most influential living philosopher. The philosopher Roger Scruton retorted that was only in the same sense that Hitler was the most influential living painter of his time.
Please keep these sorts of discussions going. Peter Singer was new to me so watched the link and searched Wikipedia to learn his background. He is a wrap it up neat and tidy approach but interesting to see. Sometimes it takes a bold and aggravating position to trigger thought and responses.
Once away from academic life, I rarely hear about philosophy or life's issues in discussions. Mostly it is personal stuff or whatever the latest scandal is on the media.
iris lilies
4-5-21, 12:11pm
Please keep these sorts of discussions going. Peter Singer was new to me so watched the link and searched Wikipedia to learn his background. He is a wrap it up neat and tidy approach but interesting to see. Sometimes it takes a bold and aggravating position to trigger thought and responses.
Once away from academic life, I rarely hear about philosophy or life's issues in discussions. Mostly it is personal stuff or whatever the latest scandal is on the media.
I think you are right, that his Modus operandi is to provoke thought, although his rationalizations are expressed in book long treatises and not in the 280 characters of a tweet. Contemporary provocateurs do not get very deep unless you move from their tweets to Instagram grids and then onwards to their YouTube videos.
Morally, I am inconsistent in that I am sorry to eat piggies but I eat them. But I am sorry for their difficult lives.
Morally, I am inconsistent in that I am sorry to eat piggies but I eat them. But I am sorry for their difficult lives.
The late philosopher Roger Scruton owned a small farm. He named one of his pigs Singer.
iris lilies
4-5-21, 1:28pm
The late philosopher Roger Scruton owned a small farm. He named one of his pigs Singer.
The quip about Hitler’s place in the art world is hilarious.
From a news story on the lifting of restrictions in my state:
"The Administration is able to take these steps to reopen the Commonwealth’s economy because Massachusetts is on track to meet the goal set in December to fully vaccinate over 4 million individuals by the first week of June. The Commonwealth leads the nation in vaccinating residents, with 75% of adults receiving at least one dose. To date, over 4 million residents have received a first dose, with 3.2 million fully vaccinated.
New cases have dropped by 89% since January 8. COVID hospitalizations are down 88% since January 1 and the positive test rate is down by 88% from peaking at 8.7% on January 1 to 1% today."
My question is - should this progress be celebrated? Or as suggested in the coronavirus thread, is it selfish of the governor to celebrate progress against covid while people are still dying of the disease? Should we all stay in doom and gloom mode until there are zero deaths anywhere in the country?
happystuff
5-18-21, 10:36am
From a news story on the lifting of restrictions in my state:
"The Administration is able to take these steps to reopen the Commonwealth’s economy because Massachusetts is on track to meet the goal set in December to fully vaccinate over 4 million individuals by the first week of June. The Commonwealth leads the nation in vaccinating residents, with 75% of adults receiving at least one dose. To date, over 4 million residents have received a first dose, with 3.2 million fully vaccinated.
New cases have dropped by 89% since January 8. COVID hospitalizations are down 88% since January 1 and the positive test rate is down by 88% from peaking at 8.7% on January 1 to 1% today."
My question is - should this progress be celebrated? Or as suggested in the coronavirus thread, is it selfish of the governor to celebrate progress against covid while people are still dying of the disease? Should we all stay in doom and gloom mode until there are zero deaths anywhere in the country?
>8)
A high quality vanilla ice cream is so versatile. Good on its own, or you can put sauces or good jams atop to completely change the experience.
Some pessimists resent optimists. They wish they had the temperament to be happy about progress and hopeful for the future. It is sad that they wallow in doom and gloom.
A high quality vanilla ice cream is so versatile. Good on its own, or you can put sauces or good jams atop to completely change the experience.
Or a dash or two of chocolate malt powder...
iris lilies
5-18-21, 1:46pm
From a news story on the lifting of restrictions in my state:
"The Administration is able to take these steps to reopen the Commonwealth’s economy because Massachusetts is on track to meet the goal set in December to fully vaccinate over 4 million individuals by the first week of June. The Commonwealth leads the nation in vaccinating residents, with 75% of adults receiving at least one dose. To date, over 4 million residents have received a first dose, with 3.2 million fully vaccinated.
New cases have dropped by 89% since January 8. COVID hospitalizations are down 88% since January 1 and the positive test rate is down by 88% from peaking at 8.7% on January 1 to 1% today."
My question is - should this progress be celebrated? Or as suggested in the coronavirus thread, is it selfish of the governor to celebrate progress against covid while people are still dying of the disease? Should we all stay in doom and gloom mode until there are zero deaths anywhere in the country?
yes progess should be celebrated! But you know, bad news sells. The media loves blaring out the bad news headlines.
I think of World War 2, when people had maps at home with colored pushpins and they would mark the progress of allied troops. They didn't say it's disgraceful and dishonorable to the dead to celebrate progress. They didn't say the war isn't over so we can't be happy yet about our victories. In the battle against covid some today have such a different mindset.
iris lilies
5-18-21, 2:20pm
Well, bad news sells just like I like to make 3x as many Rant posts as Rave entries.
So now I’m going off to post a couple pretty pictures of pretty Iris. They are really pretty!
happystuff
5-19-21, 10:36am
A high quality vanilla ice cream is so versatile. Good on its own, or you can put sauces or good jams atop to completely change the experience.
And let's not forget the sprinkles!!!
If as a fully vaccinated person in a state with a covid positivity rate below 1% (which doesn't include all the negative home tests which would further lower the rate), a person who waited and did not try to jump the vaccine line, who followed the rules, am now happy to be free of them, and celebrate our victory over the disease and a return to normal, am I selfish? Are the vast majority of Americans selfish for enjoying life again instead of wringing their hands?
If as a fully vaccinated person in a state with a covid positivity rate below 1% (which doesn't include all the negative home tests which would further lower the rate), a person who waited and did not try to jump the vaccine line, who followed the rules, am now happy to be free of them, and celebrate our victory over the disease and a return to normal, am I selfish? Are the vast majority of Americans selfish for enjoying life again instead of wringing their hands?
I don't think the readers here want to hear you on Covid anymore. That is the impression I get from all the ice cream comments they make. I wonder if another forum might want to engage in the way you are looking for, on this topic? This does not seem a receptive bunch, on this topic.
I don't think the readers here want to hear you on Covid anymore. That is the impression I get from all the ice cream comments they make. I wonder if another forum might want to engage in the way you are looking for, on this topic? This does not seem a receptive bunch, on this topic.
It is very easy for them to add me to their ignore list instead of calling me names.
I hear you. I think ignoring posts or posters we don't like is probably the best thing to do.
I hear you. I think ignoring posts or posters we don't like is probably the best thing to do.
You’re right. If people are that bothered, they have options if they don’t want to engage. They can not read or respond to the person they object to (all it takes is a minor act of will). They can use the ignore feature to create their own little safe space. Or they can join others in a dessert-themed pack attack to try to drive them out. Or they can flee to some site where the moderators censor posters more to their liking.
happystuff
5-28-21, 10:47am
Or they can exercise as much free will to respond as the initial poster does in posting.
I think Tybee had a good suggestion and also agree that ignoring is as much an option as responding.
At this point in time, Yppej chooses to post. I choose to respond. She can stop with these types of posts, but chooses not to. I also get to choose when I stop. Don't condemn those who respond without condemning the source.
Don't condemn those who respond without condemning the source.
I don’t know how you got that from what I posted. I don’t condemn those who respond to posters they disagree with. I probably have thousands of posts here to offer as evidence to the contrary. Sometimes it’s a spirited exchange. Sometimes they call you a racist and leave in a snit. It’s all part of life’s rich pageant.
happystuff
5-28-21, 11:16am
I don’t know how you got that from what I posted. I don’t condemn those who respond to posters they disagree with. I probably have thousands of posts here to offer as evidence to the contrary. Sometimes it’s a spirited exchange. Sometimes they call you a racist and leave in a snit. It’s all part of life’s rich pageant.
That part was not directed specifically at you but in general. Sorry if it came out that way, as that was not the intent.
And, yes, to the rest of your post. Quite a pageant sometimes!
The arguments of my critics are succinctly summarized in two common phrases:
"She did it first"
and, since they posit that I am evil, "The devil made me do it."
catherine
5-28-21, 12:20pm
I love you all, I truly do. I've been here for a long time--decades. But sometimes I feel like this group can be like The Hunger Games. We've become rather insular. New people come and some will either leave in a snit because they don't like the tone of the members, or because the members "drive them out" because of their tone. The attrition rate here is higher than the rate at which members achieve a "tenure" of sorts--earned by being tough enough to tolerate the occasional slings and arrows. That fact alone might be a reason to pause.
Maybe someday there will be two of us left, arguing about the same topics that we always argue about--abortion, socialism, salad spinners. At that point, the last men/women standing will have to pony up $211 a year for the pleasure of each other's company. At that point, I don't think simple living will have much to do with anything.
ApatheticNoMore
5-28-21, 12:52pm
I thought GeorgeParker was treated harsh, even if he did write long meandering posts about I'm not sure what. Many others I'd like back.
I think what we always argue about is masks, covid misinformation, and how inconvenient the pandemic has been.
frugal-one
5-28-21, 4:01pm
It is very easy for them to add me to their ignore list instead of calling me names.
Take a look at all those who don’t want this. In response to your question, yes, you are selfish to keep harping on this subject!
The arguments of my critics are succinctly summarized in two common phrases:
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
I have gotten used to some people saying if you don't want to wear a mask the rest of your life you are selfish - which continues even as all but one of my health department/Board of Health members don't wear one now - but I was a little stung by something that happened the other day.
I clicked on dado potato's link to hear the bells chime and after I listened to them below I could see other recommended videos which include ones I or my son recently watched. There was one by some guy Narcdaily. It was about when the narcisisst realizes what they missed and I tied it to a note I left my son hoping to reestablish connection.
I watched a bit and of course this guy on Narcdaily is asking people to subscribe to his channel and making money off sowing these divisions. Today I see one "Why Your Silence is the Key" which explains why my son gives me the silent treatment and will not come downstairs when I am home.
Now I am not perfect but I built a lot of my life around my son and made many accommodations for his illness to the point I didn't set up enough boundaries and worked with a counselor on that. So to have him distancing himself based on blather from some self-styled expert that labels people narcissists makes me hurt and angry. One thing the guy complained about in the snippet I watched was the "narcissist" would look at her phone when watching a video with him, and DS in the past would come talk to me and even though I was responding if I didn't immediately mute the TV, or if some bright image on the TV flashed across the screen and my eyes involuntarily glanced at it, he would get upset. I took to turning off the TV if he came in the room so he would not accuse me of not paying attention to him. Now I know where he got that from. Apparently he has been watching this crap for months if not years. The narrator says things like the narcissist will never have anyone as good in their life as you were, stroking the ego of the viewer.
So I don't think there will be any reconciliation anytime soon as he is filling his mind with this I'm a victim of a narcissist series.
rosarugosa
3-12-22, 6:29am
I'm sorry that the situation with your son hasn't improved, Jeppy.
TY. The only thing that has improved is the major cleaning he has done and that includes the power cords up to his room since he got the power restored there. Probably 98% of his things are moved to his room. Hopefully this gives him a sense of control over his things - that they are now where I cannot see them - and he feels better going forward.
Teacher Terry
3-12-22, 5:57pm
That’s really sad Yppej.
He's apparently living "on his own" in your house. I hope--for both your sakes--it's a step toward his eventual emancipation.
iris lilies
3-12-22, 6:47pm
He's apparently living "on his own" in your house. I hope--for both your sakes--it's a step toward his eventual emancipation.
That’s a good way to think about it.
I didn't think of it that way Jane, but it's true.
happystuff
3-13-22, 3:51pm
I think it would be interesting to hear the son's side of this relationship.
Don't mean to be mean, but just wondering.
Yppej, this must be SO hard. I always find it rather devastating when my kids reject me. Its really hard not being on good terms with them.
TY all. I still hope someday he comes around.
I haven't read through this entire thread but I can easily say that it always bothers me when people tell me that suicide is selfish.
iris lilies
3-14-22, 12:39am
I haven't read through this entire thread but I can easily say that it always bothers me when people tell me that suicide is selfish.
I have what you might think is an impossibly conflicted point of view about suicide but it is this: it is a terrible act that is selfish because it is devastating for those left behind. But that doesn't mean it is wrong. It still may be the best choice.
Re suicide is selfish..
I was set straight by a friend of mine whose brother and daughter both committed suicide. She said that sometimes the pain of living leaves some people in a place where they see no other choice. OTOH, could it be selfish for those left behind to hold onto them and refuse to let them go? Of course, it's a tragedy all around, especially for surviving children, but is it really selfish?
iris lilies
3-14-22, 9:18am
Re suicide is selfish..
I was set straight by a friend of mine whose brother and daughter both committed suicide. She said that sometimes the pain of living leaves some people in a place where they see no other choice. OTOH, could it be selfish for those left behind to hold onto them and refuse to let them go? Of course, it's a tragedy all around, especially for surviving children, but is it really selfish?
I have a continuing problem with these labels such as “selfish” and why does it really matter? Who cares if anyone calls me selfish? Certainly I lead a self centered life. Is that selfish? Maybe it is, overall. So what?
So what does it matter what we as a society or what Catherine or what Tiam calls someone committing suicide? Or what we call a family member of a person who committed suicide? It’s just a pejorative word. Just a word.
reducing such a shattering action to just a word is so limiting. Those left behind have such pain, and any words that allow them to process their pain seem ok to me.
happystuff
3-17-22, 7:53pm
Maybe "choosing death" (versus choosing life) is a better alternative to "suicide"?
I find it interesting, for instance, that the act of a soldier who throws himself on a grenade, possibly to save others, is heroic but it's not considered "suicide". I guess maybe it is where one draws the line.
Teacher Terry
3-17-22, 9:48pm
Throwing yourself on a grenade sacrifices one person to save many lives. Committing suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
I will say, as a first responder who has to deal with suicides and suicide attempts far too often, please consider the horror and trauma you will be causing others... And if you then decide to proceed, think it through and be polite about it.
iris lilies
3-17-22, 10:09pm
Throwing yourself on a grenade sacrifices one person to save many lives. Committing suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
Hmmm I don’t think debilitating, unrelenting, life altering depression is “ a temporary problem.”
I also think the medical community, as much as it likes to think it’s so advanced, along with the community of therapists and mental health experts, thinks they can accomplish more than they can. Sure sometimes treatment results in a great improvement. Sometimes it doesn’t. There is no one-size-fits-all.
happystuff
3-17-22, 10:11pm
Throwing yourself on a grenade sacrifices one person to save many lives. Committing suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
I see what you are saying, but I think it is more of a grey area. While I don't think suicide is an answer in most cases, the act is, obviously, an individual's decision to make or not. The loss of a loved one - regardless of the how's and why's - is always painful for those remaining.
catherine
3-17-22, 10:30pm
Yes, a tragedy all around. Then there's the survivor guilt. I've posted before about my DIL whose ex-husband invited her to lunch the day after she told him she was marrying my son, and when she went to his house for lunch he had wrapped a plastic bag around his head, intentionally staged so that she would be the one to find him. So, to use bae's term, I don't think that was a very polite way to do it. The poor girl has to live with that.
iris lilies
3-17-22, 10:59pm
Yes, a tragedy all around. Then there's the survivor guilt. I've posted before about my DIL whose ex-husband invited her to lunch the day after she told him she was marrying my son, and when she went to his house for lunch he had wrapped a plastic bag around his head, intentionally staged so that she would be the one to find him. So, to use bae's term, I don't think that was a very polite way to do it. The poor girl has to live with that.
that was shitty of him.
A former CEO of Eli Lilly had a wife who committed suicide right after her kids finished thier higher level schooling. Even though she had access to the best quality treatment in the world, used it for years to try and find some relief, and access to any depression drugs whether marketed or in development, she found life unbearable. She apparently had deep long lasting depression.
I will say, as a first responder who has to deal with suicides and suicide attempts far too often, please consider the horror and trauma you will be causing others... And if you then decide to proceed, think it through and be polite about it.
They found a body a few years ago at a large wooded park near me. As I recall, they determined it was suicide, and the man had been missing/dead for a number of years. That might have been an example of a relatively polite suicide.
One of my not too tightly wrapped BFs decided it would be impactful to open his wrist in front of me. Fortunately, he only sliced a vein. I managed to push him out the front door of my rented room (with a tourniquet made from a scarf I'd never liked) before he passed out. We got him to a hospital and sewn up. I had more of a penchant for drama back then. I don't think he had any intention of killing himself. But selfish? I'd say so.
They found a body a few years ago at a large wooded park near me. As I recall, they determined it was suicide, and the man had been missing/dead for a number of years. That might have been an example of a relatively polite suicide.
Well.... You might think so.... But, not-so-much. (People come to our huge park all the time to do this...)
First of all there is the initial search-and-rescue operation, which can involve a large number of people.
Once you find them, well, then there is a team of responders and the coroner who have to deal with the remains, and it is not a nice job at all. Just to sketch things out for you, each of these is treated as a crime scene until determined otherwise, so *all* the physical evidence has to be documented and gathered. Which can be very very very icky.
And then there's the issue of uninvolved people becoming involved without consent - we had a poor fellow come upon a tent in the woods with a suicide inside. It had been there for....some months. It horrified the person who stumbled across the body so much that they required considerable therapy to deal with it.
Also, why does everyone pick ravines far downhill from the access roads/paths to carry out their drama? Someone has to hump all the remains/evidence BACK UP the mountain to the path, and then out of the park. Which again is an icky job.
Etc.
Well.... You might think so.... But, not-so-much. (People come to our huge park all the time to do this...)
First of all there is the initial search-and-rescue operation, which can involve a large number of people.
Once you find them, well, then there is a team of responders and the coroner who have to deal with the remains, and it is not a nice job at all. Just to sketch things out for you, each of these is treated as a crime scene until determined otherwise, so *all* the physical evidence has to be documented and gathered. Which can be very very very icky.
And then there's the issue of uninvolved people becoming involved without consent - we had a poor fellow come upon a tent in the woods with a suicide inside. It had been there for....some months. It horrified the person who stumbled across the body so much that they required considerable therapy to deal with it.
Also, why does everyone pick ravines far downhill from the access roads/paths to carry out their drama? Someone has to hump all the remains/evidence BACK UP the mountain to the path, and then out of the park. Which again is an icky job.
Etc.
As far as I could tell, there was no search effort, no vehicle, etc.
Personally, that seemed like a much less disturbing death in lovely nature than that of an acquaintance of mine who shot himself in his bed at his parents house. But it's always traumatic for the survivors.
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