View Full Version : Contested guardianship
Does anyone have any experiences to share around contested guardianships of an elder with dementia? We went to court last week and boy, that was something I don't want to do again. Elder contests the guardianship; family has a good plan for elder, anyone know anything about the standard of proof with incapacity (they don't call it incompetent anymore, it's incapacitated, which is actually a lot better and more descriptive.)
I don't. Does either party have an attorney? If you don't have one are you willing to lawyer up?
I don't. Does either party have an attorney? If you don't have one are you willing to lawyer up?
Yes, both sides have attorneys, and that is not the issue. It's more about the proof of incapacity.
Doesn't it involve certification by a physician? There's probably some subjectivity there.. I don't know if there are standards.
I'm sure you've already researched, but here's one site with some information: https://www.agingcare.com/articles/why-a-letter-of-competency-should-be-part-of-every-seniors-legal-file-441176.htm
If you're looking for personal experience, when my mother had her aneurysm/stroke, she went from being a fully functional 50 year old to not knowing what planet she was on. It was heartbreaking, but she wound up in a nursing home. When I asked her doctor about her prognosis, her curt reply was "they usually stay that way." So there she was, missing out on enjoying her first grandson who had been born just two weeks after her event.
God sent an angel in the form of a friend of hers who would take her out to lunch once a week--despite my mother's confusion and disorientation. She noticed that some days she was perfectly lucid, and other days she would spoon her ice cream into her tea and talk about General Patton walking the halls. So she told me that she thought my mother should get re-evaluated.
So my mother's other best friend and I took her to Gaylord in New Haven, and she underwent a batter of tests there, and based on that, the doctor told the nursing home to stop giving her any medication.
Within a week my mother "woke up"--it was literally like the movie Awakenings. After 18 months lying in a nursing home bed, she became herself exactly as if she came out of a coma. She asked me what happened to this? How is so-and-so?
Not sure how this relates to your specific situation, Tybee, but I guess I would say that getting your mother evaluated by the most credible institution you can find would give you some confidence in their ability to certify your mother's capacities.
Doesn't it involve certification by a physician? There's probably some subjectivity there.. I don't know if there are standards.
I'm sure you've already researched, but here's one site with some information: https://www.agingcare.com/articles/why-a-letter-of-competency-should-be-part-of-every-seniors-legal-file-441176.htm
If you're looking for personal experience, when my mother had her aneurysm/stroke, she went from being a fully functional 50 year old to not knowing what planet she was on. It was heartbreaking, but she wound up in a nursing home. When I asked her doctor about her prognosis, her curt reply was "they usually stay that way." So there she was, missing out on enjoying her first grandson who had been born just two weeks after her event.
God sent an angel in the form of a friend of hers who would take her out to lunch once a week--despite my mother's confusion and disorientation. She noticed that some days she was perfectly lucid, and other days she would spoon her ice cream into her tea and talk about General Patton walking the halls. So she told me that she thought my mother should get re-evaluated.
So my mother's other best friend and I took her to Gaylord in New Haven, and she underwent a batter of tests there, and based on that, the doctor told the nursing home to stop giving her any medication.
Within a week my mother "woke up"--it was literally like the movie Awakenings. After 18 months lying in a nursing home bed, she became herself exactly as if she came out of a coma. She asked me what happened to this? How is so-and-so?
Not sure how this relates to your specific situation, Tybee, but I guess I would say that getting your mother evaluated by the most credible institution you can find would give you some confidence in their ability to certify your mother's capacities.
Wow, what an amazing story. Yes, we need to have her really evaluated by someone who knows what they are doing. My brothers and their lawyers have not done this, unfortunately. they are controlling what is happening, unfortunately.
What a difficult situation!
You may already have done this. Make a written record of your observations from the time of your move to Maine. Don't underestimate how important your view is, including the filthy clothes, poor diet and hygiene etc. Those who see someone often don't see the changes as clearly as someone with less frequent contact due to distance can.
Does your state have a capacity panel requirement to determine incapacity?
So sorry this is happening.
I will be doing this next Monday. We have a court date to get a conservatorship. We brought mom to the neurologist who first diagnosed the dementia and she helped us fill out the paperwork. Mom insists she is normal, but doesn't know year or month or even how many grandchildren she has. It was painful to witness how few questions she can answer.
What a difficult situation!
You may already have done this. Make a written record of your observations from the time of your move to Maine. Don't underestimate how important your view is, including the filthy clothes, poor diet and hygiene etc. Those who see someone often don't see the changes as clearly as someone with less frequent contact due to distance can.
Does your state have a capacity panel requirement to determine incapacity?
So sorry this is happening.
No panel, it is up to the judge to make the ruling. He did not make it last week which meant she had not proved her case to his satisfaction. Just sent everyone involved a suggestion about doing what Catherine did(thanks Catherine,you helped me figure out what to suggest) and already got a letter back from the guardian not to butt in.
Razz, I already did the things you suggest in oral form. Was thinking of an affadavit, too. But am being shut down by these people, again and again. I am done; I want out of here.
I will be doing this next Monday. We have a court date to get a conservatorship. We brought mom to the neurologist who first diagnosed the dementia and she helped us fill out the paperwork. Mom insists she is normal, but doesn't know year or month or even how many grandchildren she has. It was painful to witness how few questions she can answer.
Good for you for going right to the neurologist. Have no idea why this lawyer did not do that, except they are cheaping out. I am so, so sorry to hear you are going through this--it is so painful, it is indescribable.
Razz, I meant I already told the judge some of the things directly. Like things no one could doubt dementia. I think he believes it.
I am so frustrated by this situation. I wish it were over.
Catherine, I don't think your mother's case is unusual. I read a book some years ago about an identical case, and I wonder how many older people are consigned to a human warehouse unnecessarily. Bless your mother's friend and the doctor who evaluated her.
Razz, I meant I already told the judge some of the things directly. Like things no one could doubt dementia. I think he believes it.
I am so frustrated by this situation. I wish it were over.
The judge has probably seen other cases similar to this one with the tensions/dysfunction from family members who disagree on how to proceed. If the judge has suggested an evaluation of capacity by a recognized professional in this field and the brothers fail to do so, it will have a large impact on the judge's decision, I would think.
\Bless your mother's friend and the doctor who evaluated her.
Absolutely! I think the doctor liked my mother's sense of humor. When he was filling out the form, he asked her, "Are you single? Married? Separate? Divorced?" She quipped, "All of the above"--which was true: twice divorced and Husband #3 took off after she had her stroke because he found and read her will and he wasn't in it.
happystuff
6-7-21, 11:31am
I have no experience (yet!) with any of this, but wanted to say how sorry I am that you are having to go through all this. Wishing you the best.
No panel, it is up to the judge to make the ruling. He did not make it last week which meant she had not proved her case to his satisfaction. Just sent everyone involved a suggestion about doing what Catherine did(thanks Catherine,you helped me figure out what to suggest) and already got a letter back from the guardian not to butt in.
Wow. Don't butt in?? You're her daughter!!! What hold does your family have on these "professionals"? What a nightmare.
frugal-one
6-7-21, 11:47am
Crazy on how lack of B12 can also be diagnosed as dementia. MIL had this situation. I demanded her B12 levels be checked and within a week she was back to normal after taking B12.
Great advice to have her checked out!
Crazy on how lack of B12 can also be diagnosed as dementia. MIL had this situation. I demanded her B12 levels be checked and within a week she was back to normal after taking B12.
Great advice to have her checked out!
Yes, I remember my dad got B-12 shots from his doctor. That's a good thing to check.
Absolutely! I think the doctor liked my mother's sense of humor. When he was filling out the form, he asked her, "Are you single? Married? Separate? Divorced?" She quipped, "All of the above"--which was true: twice divorced and Husband #3 took off after she had her stroke because he found and read her will and he wasn't in it.
Oh man, Catherine, that is sad. I really admire you for how forgiving you are of people.
Tybee, do your brothers and/or guardian benefit in any way financially from the status quo?
Teacher Terry
6-7-21, 2:35pm
Tybee, so sorry you are going through this.
Tybee, do your brothers and/or guardian benefit in any way financially from the status quo?
I'm not sure; the guardians and lawyers benefit from all of it. Yes, I have seen I Care a Lot, and it's not all fiction.
iris lilies
6-7-21, 4:39pm
What kind of financial resources does you mother have? Are there assets, outside of her income?
What kind of financial resources does you mother have? Are there assets, outside of her income?
Yes, she has plenty of money to see her through; she is self pay; siblings are not fighting each other; she is fighting guardianship.
In my state, getting guardianship over somebody who contests it will involve going to court, and will require an independant evaluation of mental capacity, usually a psychologist or neurologist appointed by the court (for objectivity). I would think a family attorney would certainly know how to go about this in your state.
iris lilies
6-7-21, 8:51pm
I am a bit curious as to how this guardianship for elderly parents comes to a head.
My mother had dementia but was easily lead. When she went to a nursing home for what was a temporary stay, Starting with a physical problem, it turned out to be her forever stay. She was complainypants about it but not challenging that status of nursing home resident. She looked at it as a temporary thing and we never suggested otherwise.As time went by her dementia got worse and she lost sight of any idea of leaving.
TYbee, what is your mother wanting to do that you all don’t want her to do?
ToomuchStuff
6-8-21, 1:12am
Will be watching this thread with interest.
Everything was pretty much in order for my mom to take over my grandmothers stuff, when a brain tumor was discovered.
My situation is going to be different now. In the last few weeks, we have seen confusion in the other owner. We are hoping it is stress and the upcoming auction to raise funds for the memorial.
However, I have seen it, and dealt with it, as well as our Tax accountant, haven't spoken to our regular accountant, but have spoken with his ex wife (still see her quite a bit), and she said he seemed off today. I don't believe anyone is in power to control his medical decisions or make him take his medications (screw up diabetes medications can cause all kinds of things).
Things like those, could be simple fixes. If he is starting to lose it, since the ownership papers are not done, I have a fiduciary responsibility to handle the business in a way that screws me.
In my state, getting guardianship over somebody who contests it will involve going to court, and will require an independant evaluation of mental capacity, usually a psychologist or neurologist appointed by the court (for objectivity). I would think a family attorney would certainly know how to go about this in your state.
Yes, I also would have thought it would be an independent neurologist, a medical doctor.
Iris, she is is just saying, "no, I don't want this." Unclear if she understands what "this" is, as she is so very far gone. She does not know who anyone is, but is still a very smart person. She has brain damage. It's not that she wants to do something we all don't want her to do--well, I guess it is, she wants to "go home" although does not remember any home post 1947.
Will be watching this thread with interest.
Everything was pretty much in order for my mom to take over my grandmothers stuff, when a brain tumor was discovered.
My situation is going to be different now. In the last few weeks, we have seen confusion in the other owner. We are hoping it is stress and the upcoming auction to raise funds for the memorial.
However, I have seen it, and dealt with it, as well as our Tax accountant, haven't spoken to our regular accountant, but have spoken with his ex wife (still see her quite a bit), and she said he seemed off today. I don't believe anyone is in power to control his medical decisions or make him take his medications (screw up diabetes medications can cause all kinds of things).
Things like those, could be simple fixes. If he is starting to lose it, since the ownership papers are not done, I have a fiduciary responsibility to handle the business in a way that screws me.
So sorry to read about your challenges at present, TMS. It presents so many questions about your rights as a business partner that would never usually come up in a business agreement to co-own.
So sorry to read about your challenges at present, TMS. It presents so many questions about your rights as a business partner that would never usually come up in a business agreement to co-own.
TMS, if you co-own a business with someone who is failing, then you need a lawyer to protect your interests, too. If someone gets guardianship of the person, then they act as the person with whatever legal arrangements you have prior to the person having a guardian; the guardian becomes the person and can make any business decision as the person.
ToomuchStuff
6-8-21, 11:30am
TMS, if you co-own a business with someone who is failing, then you need a lawyer to protect your interests, too. If someone gets guardianship of the person, then they act as the person with whatever legal arrangements you have prior to the person having a guardian; the guardian becomes the person and can make any business decision as the person.
The issue is, I have been on the board for 8 years, with the current owner. His late brother, was a partner, but not on the board, legally. (alcohol/licensing issues)
The brothers estate still has a month, before it should be settled. That has to happen first, before the owner can transfer that ownership. If he becomes incapacitated before that, or it is determined, later, that he was failing, that could potentially put the ownership in question.
Since his sibling died, he has not been talking with most of his family, and they have been communicating through me.
iris lilies
6-8-21, 12:16pm
Iris, she is is just saying, "no, I don't want this." Unclear if she understands what "this" is, as she is so very far gone. She does not know who anyone is, but is still a very smart person. She has brain damage. It's not that she wants to do something we all don't want her to do--well, I guess it is, she wants to "go home" although does not remember any home post 1947.
From this description it’s hard for me to believe that a court would allow your mother to continue to make her own decisions. How could she even figure out where to live on her own?
From this description it’s hard for me to believe that a court would allow your mother to continue to make her own decisions. How could she even figure out where to live on her own?
Oh, yes, that is completely impossible, so not sure why the judge did not rule last week. I think procedurally, she was not represented by a lawyer at the first emergency hearing, and they never got her consent, and then they did not get her a lawyer. It's a due process issue.
The court appointed a lawyer for mom, who met with her to determine her wishes. She wants to stay in her house but anyone talking with her for more than 2 minutes can tell she is impaired. Mom also won't allow us to hire helpers (because she is normal ) and doesn't want to move. She also gets angry if you tell her that you are doing something for her (like wiping counters). We are supposed to take care if things when she is out of the room so she can continue to deceive herself that she is taking care of everything. Because she has lost touch of time, she can't tell you when she ate or showered or took her medicine. Its all the same day.
I had no idea that things could get that complicated for so many. Would some of this been prevented by a personal power of attorney or is that the cause of the problems? Trying to decide on capacity to decide if power of attorney can be invoked?
iris lilies
6-8-21, 2:46pm
Wow, people are so different!
I remember when my mother was still living alone and my brother took over all of her mail. He had her important mail forwarded and he also swung by her house daily to pick it up from her mailbox.
I thought to myself oh this is not going to go well, she will resent this loss of independence because she liked opening mail and sending money to ridiculous organizations.
But you know what? She was relieved and happy when he took over servicing her mail.She talked about how nice it was that he was doing this for her! So, you never know!
Power of attorney differs from conservatorship. My sister already has poa. That allows her to be mom's agent. But she is limited to what mom wants. Conservator ship allows us to make decisions mom doesn't want ( such as admitting her to assisted living).
it's nice if Mom or Dad allows the kids to take care of things, but if they DON'T, and they refuse to sign over complete guardianship/power of attorney/conservatorship (not sure of the correct wording, but it's not just a medical power of attorney), it is too late to do it after their dementia has reached a certain point and they refuse. Then the kids can call Council on Aging, Adult Protective Services, the DMV to try to forcibly revoke their drivers' licenses, appeal to their family doctor, etc etc --- but absolutely nobody can step in and do anything against the wishes of the elder....unless the family goes to court and has the person declared incompetant, which is excruciating for all concerned.
iris lilies
6-12-21, 7:58pm
My brother disabled my mom’s car in some way. Gosh it was mysterious why that car did not run! She was driving very little by then anyway, and after a few months of talking about getting the car fixed, she forgot about it.
this followed an incident where, according to our mother, she was pulled over by police and harassed and kept in her car for hours.
Since my brother is plugged into the emergency personal in that town, and he knows the policeman who pulled her over, he thinks it’s highly unlikely that policeman who is a very gentle and sweet dude did anything close to what our mother complained about.
This is one of those "worst case scenario stories" that everyone is trying to avoid:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nextavenue/2019/07/19/one-familys-journey-through-guardianship-hell/?sh=17bc02277636
I don't understand the judge's actions in this one but it's a good cautionary tale, I guess.
rosarugosa
6-13-21, 5:58am
This is one of those "worst case scenario stories" that everyone is trying to avoid:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/nextavenue/2019/07/19/one-familys-journey-through-guardianship-hell/?sh=17bc02277636
I don't understand the judge's actions in this one but it's a good cautionary tale, I guess.
Wow, the stuff of nightmares.
The article's statement, "With mental illness, there may be nothing you can do to repair whatever their mind thinks you have done to them" struck a note with me.
This is one of those "worst case scenario stories" that everyone is trying to avoid:
Ugh, I probably shouldn't have read that, since we are going to court tomorrow.
Tybee, I'm so sorry there is dissension in your family. :(
My mother cannot handle her own finances (no longer understands banking, can't follow a bank statement) , cannot manage appointments or contractors (doesn't know time any longer, can't remember names of oil company, phone company etc) , no longer drives (so can't shop) , can't write checks (too complicated) or use an ATM (never learned), can't cook and I think she has forgotten how to use the microwave but insists she is normal and wants to stay in her house until she dies. She is so far gone that she doesn't even realize she can't do the basics of living in a private home. She no longer cleans, but insists she does. Has to be prompted to change her clothes/shower. Only sporadically takes her medication. On top of all that, many evenings she calls my sister to complain on how lonely she is. Even my father had been looking for a place for her before his own cancer sapped his energy.
My sister is doing the heavy lifting. I assist with practical things, but not the emotional ones. I remind Mom that how she's living is her choice, and if she is "so lonely" there are a number of options open to her. She hates that. My brothers are both basically absent. The local one cuts her grass (because she pays him $100 per time and it takes him 15 minutes to do the small lawn) and drops off a sandwich for dinner once in a while. The other one in Vermont is finally down to see her this weekend- first time since Dad died in Feb 2020 even though he was vaccinated a while back and restrictions in Vermont have been lifted and he's been traveling to other states for recreation. No one wants to take Mom on, so at least we are all in agreement that she needs to be in a facility for her own safety and mental health. She's always been a nasty, suspicious, angry woman and dementia has only emphasized those well worn deep grooves.
The moral of the story - get everything possible in writing according to the 'mistakes' made in the link earlier.
The question now is - if you have a family, do you have everything in writing? A loan, rental agreement, use of car, etc. Start early and keep doing it so that it is established policy for the family and expected routinely by the family. If you cannot discuss this with the recipient of the benefit now, when?
Good luck tomorrow, herbgeek. Our first hearing was on Zoom but next month's will be back to an actual courtroom.
Our first hearing was quite stressful, but she was okay (on Zoom) and did not have a stroke which is what I feared. She actually went off and took a nap while it was happening.
happystuff
6-13-21, 9:38am
Wow - definitely ranks up there as a worst case scenario!
Good luck tomorrow, herbgeek.
Wishing you well, Herbgeek.
iris lilies
6-13-21, 12:38pm
The moral of the story - get everything possible in writing according to the 'mistakes' made in the link earlier.
The question now is - if you have a family, do you have everything in writing? A loan, rental agreement, use of car, etc. Start early and keep doing it so that it is established policy for the family and expected routinely by the family. If you cannot discuss this with the recipient of the benefit now, when?
well, you know…”in writing” is interesting. When does the “in writing” thing need to take place? Asking theoretically, no real answer expected.
I really can’t be too specific about the family wrangling of DH, but I’ve told this elsewhere and I think it’s pretty interesting: my father-in-law gave—-stuff—-to his son (not DH) when he was in full possession of his facilities. I can’t see how anyone would have debated his mental health at that point. The Stuff was worth many thousands of dollars.
Fast forward about five years. Father in law dies, leaves significant estate, everyone gets a nice slice of pie. But now one sibling is focused on what father-in-law gives to others. Takes the issue to court. Judge rules that Stuff needs to be considered as part of the estate. WTF is my reaction, but whatever. And it means more dinero for our household, so yay (?)
I guess my question is at what point can I give my estate away that no one will come in and want to claw back that gift?
But all of that said, back decades ago DH’s family loaned one another big chunks of money at a family friendly interest rate. And yes they always wrote it up as a promissory note.This Stuff was a GIFT.
Il, that demonstrates that life gets complicated despite a parent's or the siblings best efforts.
When my mother died 2 years after my dad, the real estate was split equitably between her kids, my siblings.
The contents on the property were left to the one sister who needed the additional revenue with the full support of the other siblings
But, Sis very erratically ended up donating most of it randomly in the community to the distress of the concerned neighbours who knew how much needed revenue an auction could have generated. I was asked about it and told everyone, what my mother did was not disputable. There was nothing that could be done. Sis felt the need to be a prolific donor, it seems, despite her limited personal resources. She was advised of the potential revenue but made a different choice. Who could imagine that happening? People often seem to do what makes little sense to others.
I have found that I try to be totally transparent with my two kids and whatever one gets is matched by a similar contribution to the other. I am hoping this approach prevents any future friction.
happystuff
6-13-21, 2:05pm
I guess my question is at what point can I give my estate away that no one will come in and want to claw back that gift?
I know you said no answer expected, but I think a gift is a gift. I'm wondering if it makes a different if something in writing is given along with the gift - meaning i.e. my mom "gifts" me her old wedding ring along with a card saying something to the effect "I'm giving you this ring as a gift because...". I would think having that in writing would help to ensure that the gifts would remain with those they were gifted to.
The other part of this is having the living family members being made aware of what goes where and to who, and hopefully they respect YOU enough to respect your wishes. But, there may always be someone who just "wants".
I know you said no answer expected, but I think a gift is a gift. I'm wondering if it makes a different if something in writing is given along with the gift - meaning i.e. my mom "gifts" me her old wedding ring along with a card saying something to the effect "I'm giving you this ring as a gift because...". I would think having that in writing would help to ensure that the gifts would remain with those they were gifted to....
That's exactly what happened to me with my grandmother's ring. My rapacious relatives tried to make off with it until my mother produced the card. Now I wish the RR had won because I have to give it to another relative. As bae would say "bother."
iris lilies
6-13-21, 2:41pm
I know you said no answer expected, but I think a gift is a gift. I'm wondering if it makes a different if something in writing is given along with the gift - meaning i.e. my mom "gifts" me her old wedding ring along with a card saying something to the effect "I'm giving you this ring as a gift because...". I would think having that in writing would help to ensure that the gifts would remain with those they were gifted to.
The other part of this is having the living family members being made aware of what goes where and to who, and hopefully they respect YOU enough to respect your wishes. But, there may always be someone who just "wants".
To cut the judge some slack here, I have a vague suspicion that this particular STUFF is handled by state law in a way that’s different from your typical family heirloom jewelry because it’s an Aggie state and this is Aggie related STUFF. But I do not know that and neither was it offered as a reason by any of DH’s siblings.
I guess my MIL is one of the lucky ones as she doesn't want to be in charge of any aspect of her life other than selecting meal menus at her assisted living place. She has zero interest in her finances now and before FIL died. Someone has always done everything for her. SIL takes care of her every need or whim, BIL pays the bills and niece lives in her house and supposedly takes care of it. I often wonder how this woman would have ever survived on her own. It will be interesting when she passes because DH's sibs are non-communicative. DH had POA but it was switched to his two sibs jointly for some reason when FIL died. I hope it all goes amicably but stories abound of family squabbles over estates as they often bring out the worst in some people.
Herbgeek, good luck tomorrow.
Teacher Terry
6-14-21, 1:37am
I really hope it goes smoothly tomorrow Herbgeek.
rosarugosa
6-14-21, 5:34am
Another voice to say hope all goes smoothly, Herbgeek.
Thanks all.
So now we wait on the judge.
Three of us kids (the 4th chose not to participate) got to speak of our concerns, the neurologist's report was filed, mom's attorney said my mother objects to the petition. She had to add the house was "spotless"- clearly she didn't go into any rooms- the bathroom in particular is filthy. The 4th kid came to see how bad it was this weekend, and reported they had pizza last night and he found all the dishes they used placed into a dresser drawer this morning (unwashed). That's so Mom, as long as everything is thrown into a drawer, its "clean".
Thanks all.
So now we wait on the judge.
Three of us kids (the 4th chose not to participate) got to speak of our concerns, the neurologist's report was filed, mom's attorney said my mother objects to the petition. She had to add the house was "spotless"- clearly she didn't go into any rooms- the bathroom in particular is filthy. The 4th kid came to see how bad it was this weekend, and reported they had pizza last night and he found all the dishes they used placed into a dresser drawer this morning (unwashed). That's so Mom, as long as everything is thrown into a drawer, its "clean".
I hope the judge can hear what is really going on.
I hope the judge can hear what is really going on.
Me too. The neurologist's report is pretty convincing if my sister's halted speech was not. Even Mom's attorney admitted that she questioned Mom about paying bills, and Mom said she still pays her own bills but when pressed, she couldn't remember any. She hasn't done bills in many years.
herbgeek, I hope the judge does the right thing.
Tybee, same to you at your next court date.
I pray to God I just go quickly and my kids can cremate me and bury me under a tree sapling, have a party on the lake, and call it a day. What a difficult position for families to be in.
herbgeek, I hope the judge does the right thing.
Thank you. I'm pretty sure he will. We all said that we felt she was unsafe in one way or another, any issues would be on his head. The neurologist's report clearly states that she cannot perform the activities of daily living. At the very least, social services will need to get involved if our petition is not granted to get her additional services.
It would however, have been so much easier, if she could just acknowledge reality and be on board with assisted living. But she's always lived in a fantasy bubble, so she isn't going to be facing reality now if she has any say.
Thank you. I'm pretty sure he will. We all said that we felt she was unsafe in one way or another, any issues would be on his head.
I wonder about this as well, about their safety, which is why you are seeking guardianship in the first place. The only thing I could see in your mom's case is that the judge make it limited, and not full, but I don't see how that is practical in these cases, but maybe that will be a factor in my mom's case as well.
As in, she retains the right to make her medical decisions (refused medical care) but nothing else.
One thing I find weird in this process is no guardian ad litem automatically to try to figure this out, no social worker involved, just lawyers and witnesses.
Thank you. I'm pretty sure he will. We all said that we felt she was unsafe in one way or another, any issues would be on his head. The neurologist's report clearly states that she cannot perform the activities of daily living. At the very least, social services will need to get involved if our petition is not granted to get her additional services.
It would however, have been so much easier, if she could just acknowledge reality and be on board with assisted living. But she's always lived in a fantasy bubble, so she isn't going to be facing reality now if she has any say.
Was your hearing in person or on Zoom? Do you just wait now to see what the judge rules?
My sister and I were on audio conference, my brother was at the court in person. I'd gotten all decked out from the waist up (suit jacket and button down shirt/scarf with sweat pants) assuming it was a video conference, only to find last minute it was audio only. :D Yes, we just have to wait for the judge's ruling. He said "soon". Given that this was given a fast track for safety reasons, I'm assuming that means a week or two.
The next, harder step is getting Mom to assisted living. That will not be pretty. We will likely have to conjure up a lie or use some authority figure to be the bad guy. She does not want to leave her house because it is familiar. She says all her memories of my father are there, but the first thing she did after he died was remove his clothes the first week and enlist others to help clean out his office and workshop. It couldn't be done soon enough, and there is still some lingering large equipment and furnishings in his workshop that bugs her, even though she has no designs on the space.
My sister and I were on audio conference, my brother was at the court in person. I'd gotten all decked out from the waist up (suit jacket and button down shirt/scarf with sweat pants) assuming it was a video conference, only to find last minute it was audio only. :D Yes, we just have to wait for the judge's ruling. He said "soon". Given that this was given a fast track for safety reasons, I'm assuming that means a week or two.
The next, harder step is getting Mom to assisted living. That will not be pretty. We will likely have to conjure up a lie or use some authority figure to be the bad guy. She does not want to leave her house because it is familiar. She says all her memories of my father are there, but the first thing she did after he died was remove his clothes the first week and enlist others to help clean out his office and workshop. It couldn't be done soon enough, and there is still some lingering large equipment and furnishings in his workshop that bugs her, even though she has no designs on the space.
Soon is really good. Yes, getting her out of the house is really hard. Our mom was taken via ambulance to hospital and never went home again.
The idea of kidnapping one's own mom is so awful.
The idea of kidnapping one's own mom is so awful.
It is. I feel badly and guilty even knowing we have her best welfare in mind. She has always begged me since I was a child to never put her in a nursing home (we aren't- all the things she dreads about a nursing home such as being stuck in a johnny with a roomate confined to bed don't exist at assisted living). I always said that we'd do our best, but if she is unable to be safely at home, she'd have to leave. She already regularly gives herself food poisoning by leaving food out for unknown periods or eating expired food and not allowing us to remove the stock of expired food (food is security), and then she can't clean herself, her laundry or the bathroom after that happens. We have to help her from herself even though she doesn't want any help and doesn't think she needs any help. I wish it wasn't such a battle but mom has been oppositional like this my whole life.
happystuff
6-15-21, 11:05am
Continued prayers and well-wishes for the whole situation, herbgeek. I hope you hear something sooner rather than later so you all can get things moving forward.
Teacher Terry
6-15-21, 12:10pm
I thought we were going to have to slip my friend with dementia some Xanax to get her to go. She finally agreed. Her husband couldn’t take care of her or himself because he was dying. The saddest part was he wanted to go to a nursing home with her to help her adjust. He figured once he died she would be used to being in a home. I couldn’t find one in either Nevada or California that would accept him because he had a feeding tube in his stomach. He handled the feedings himself. Don’t know what you do if you have a feeding tube and dementia.
iris lilies
6-15-21, 2:38pm
I thought we were going to have to slip my friend with dementia some Xanax to get her to go. She finally agreed. Her husband couldn’t take care of her or himself because he was dying. The saddest part was he wanted to go to a nursing home with her to help her adjust. He figured once he died she would be used to being in a home. I couldn’t find one in either Nevada or California that would accept him because he had a feeding tube in his stomach. He handled the feedings himself. Don’t know what you do if you have a feeding tube and dementia.
It would depend on severity of dementia, but a feeding tube for people severely compromised with dementia doesnt seems like a good idea. Of course there are people in early stages of dementia who are living a good life who have feeding tubes, temporarily, for health problems. That is a different situation.
just a random observation, no specific intent here.
Teacher Terry
6-15-21, 3:48pm
IL, I guess if you had it and dementia they would take it out which would probably be a blessing. My friend’s husband had it because he had neck cancer and couldn’t eat.
At least you all are only dealing with the dementia patient contesting reality. My mother is getting worse and lost all her keys. The response of my brother who lives with her and my dad was not, Maybe since you can't remember where you put your keys you shouldn't be driving. No, it's let's go make more copies of the keys. Since the keys could have been lost in the yard I suggested changing the locks but my idea was shot down. She lost the keys after driving to the store by herself. She likes to shop and doesn't want me or anyone else to shop for her, and neither of them like to shop. This is not going to end well.
iris lilies
6-15-21, 9:57pm
The greatest invention of my retired life has been a lanyard for wearing my keys around my neck. I always know where they are. Except when I’m in the house or I put them in one of three places.
Jane v2.0
6-15-21, 10:06pm
Lanyards are handy for phones, too.
iris lilies
6-15-21, 10:18pm
Lanyards are handy for phones, too.
When I have to carry the damn phone I put it in my wallet which I carry in my armpit. It’s a big wallet. So my keys are around my neck, my wallet is under my arm, and when I’m shopping I have two hands free. It’s a sweet system and I think I will patent it..
Jane v2.0
6-15-21, 10:58pm
When I have to carry the damn phone I put it in my wallet which I carry in my armpit. It’s a big wallet. So my keys are around my neck, my wallet is under my arm, and when I’m shopping I have two hands free. It’s a sweet system and I think I will patent it..
If I were to shop, I'd deploy my phone to my crossbody and my keys to a pocket. I'm all for free hands, too.
iris lilies
6-15-21, 11:06pm
If I were to shop, I'd deploy my phone to my crossbody and my keys to a pocket. I'm all for free hands, too.
Well sure, if I have pockets but 90% of the time I have no pockets. I don’t want pants with pockets, they gape open and I just do not like them.
At least you all are only dealing with the dementia patient contesting reality.
I hope and pray that your family including you, your dad and brother will not go through the pain and trauma that Herbgeek and her family have gone through over these last few years and are now going through that has resulted in the hearing before a judge - a tragedy for any family that is struggling with such a situation.
Yppej, maybe you and brother and father could sit down and try to reach some consensus on what is happening with your mom and figure out where to go from here. If she is a danger driving, that is a bad situation, and you are right to be worried. It is also a difficult one to cope with if the parent insists they should still be driving.
It's also a good idea for you to figure out how much you want to be involved and what you are and are not willing to do. I wish I had done more of that over the past ten years.
happystuff
6-16-21, 10:42am
herbgeek, I know you are probably still in a waiting mode, but hope you hear something soon.
Well sure, if I have pockets but 90% of the time I have no pockets. I don’t want pants with pockets, they gape open and I just do not like them.
I can't have enough pockets--capacious ones, preferably. I'd have pockets in my underwear if they made those.
catherine
6-16-21, 11:16am
One component of my daily "uniform" consists of an LLBean jacket/fleece/sweatshirt that is perfect because it is mid-weight, comfortable, looks nice, has a hood, and has multiple pockets inside and out--a couple of them zippered! I have three of them in different colors. I've given up on sweaters. Half the time they look frumpy and they usually don't have pockets. What good are they?
https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/122026?moe=ordhistory&csp=a
ETA: How did we get off on this tangent?
Teacher Terry
6-16-21, 11:17am
It’s a shame that your brother and dad aren’t willing to address that your mom shouldn’t be driving. I understand why she wants to shop herself as it’s a activity she really enjoys so one of them should take her and the problem is solved.
happystuff
6-16-21, 11:23am
One component of my daily "uniform" consists of an LLBean jacket/fleece/sweatshirt that is perfect because it is mid-weight, comfortable, looks nice, has a hood, and has multiple pockets inside and out--a couple of them zippered! I have three of them in different colors. I've given up on sweaters. Half the time they look frumpy and they usually don't have pockets. What good are they?
https://www.llbean.com/llb/shop/122026?moe=ordhistory&csp=a
ETA: How did we get off on this tangent?
Big fan of pockets as well. Love cargo pants and cargo shorts!!! LOL. As for tangents - it's normal conversation, isn't it? :)
Teacher Terry
6-16-21, 11:27am
I also like pockets and have a small cross body purse that I wear for hands free shopping.
Since we are into a pocket discussion, I like one with a zipper for my keys, two large for keeping my hands warm and holding my cell phone. I solved all of the pocket issues by buying a a flat fanny pack. It goes with me on every walk and I wear gloves.
The curse of pockets is a leftover tissue and laundering so for me the minimum # of pockets the better. :(
Our petition for conservatorship was approved by the court. Now the really hard part is in front of us, getting her into the assisted living place we have chosen.
Our petition for conservatorship was approved by the court. Now the really hard part is in front of us, getting her into the assisted living place we have chosen.
That must be a huge relief!
At least, the judgement was fairly promptly handed down. Wishing you well in the transition.
The possible positive is that she will discover that the assisted living situation is putting her in contact with peers which so many older seniors find a relief after struggling on their own.
Is there a geriatric professional that can assist all of you in implementing the move?
So glad to hear, herbgeek. I agree with razz that even if it's a difficult transition, she may quickly settle in to a routine she enjoys.
Such great news, herbgeek! Does she remember the hearing? My mother does not, so she has forgotten.
They told her that her room had to be repaired for safety reasons and she had to move into a new room until they could finish repairs on the old room.
She is so much happier at memory care that she stopped asking about why she had moved in about three days, and seems to like the new room at memory care.
Does she remember the hearing?
She did not attend the hearing. Her lawyer did. It was best for all, as she doesn't really understand the particulars.
I'm glad to hear you mom loves her memory care unit Tybee- we are worried about the transition for Mom. As I mentioned earlier, she's always pleaded with us kids to never "put her in a home" and a great deal of her status/esteem comes from taking care of her house and the things she purchased to show off her perceived wealth. So there's a lot of loss for one person to process, on top of losing her husband who helped her to navigate and make sense of the world.
Teacher Terry
6-16-21, 9:27pm
Herb, I hope I am wrong but you should be prepared in case it goes the other way. My friend with dementia was the most upbeat happy person I have ever met. Once in a facility losing her house and husband she went severely downhill within a month. It was incredibly sad. In these cases there’s obviously no choice of course but I was totally unprepared for what happened to her. I think looking back it was just too much for her mind to process. I am glad that some people adjust and are happy. That’s much better for everyone.
Mom is extremely unhappy now. Every week I visit, she tells me that she spends most of her days crying. She can be sad and angry alone or she can be sad and angry with other people around for company and distraction. I never expect mom will be happy, it's not her nature. But I hope she can be a bit less miserable.
Mom is extremely unhappy now. Every week I visit, she tells me that she spends most of her days crying. She can be sad and angry alone or she can be sad and angry with other people around for company and distraction. I never expect mom will be happy, it's not her nature. But I hope she can be a bit less miserable.
Both of my parents made an unexpectedly good adjustment to assisted living , although my mother remained angry about being there--that was several years ago, and her cognition has worsened considerably. Your mom sounds like she is not so far along, which is both good and bad, good as she can still adjust to the new living situation, and bad in that she will still be distressed at leaving her home.
My mom, who had no desire to leave her home, still managed to make friends in assisted living, and was less lonely than she was at home.
Mom is extremely unhappy now. Every week I visit, she tells me that she spends most of her days crying. She can be sad and angry alone or she can be sad and angry with other people around for company and distraction. I never expect mom will be happy, it's not her nature. But I hope she can be a bit less miserable.
I remember my MIL, who was always so stalwart and active, showed some signs of lethargy and maybe even depression at the end of her life. She told us that nothing excited her anymore. OTOH, my great-aunt died at 92 years old, with the same happy attitude she had her whole life. As with any relationship, no matter what age or stage, our loved ones are responsible for their own attitudes, and it's not our job to turn them from a miserable person to a happy, or even content person. Our job is to keep them safe and free from harm. How they handle that is their problem.
happystuff
6-17-21, 10:54am
Our petition for conservatorship was approved by the court. Now the really hard part is in front of us, getting her into the assisted living place we have chosen.
Congratulations!!! One hurdle at a time and this was a big one!
happystuff
6-17-21, 11:00am
Everyone has such great advice and experiences to relate that I hope will help you, herbgeek. I have none, but wish you, your mom and the rest of your family good luck with this situation.
I remember my MIL, who was always so stalwart and active, showed some signs of lethargy and maybe even depression at the end of her life. She told us that nothing excited her anymore. OTOH, my great-aunt died at 92 years old, with the same happy attitude she had her whole life. As with any relationship, no matter what age or stage, our loved ones are responsible for their own attitudes, and it's not our job to turn them from a miserable person to a happy, or even content person. Our job is to keep them safe and free from harm. How they handle that is their problem.
Wise words, well said.
iris lilies
6-17-21, 1:01pm
Everyone has such great advice and experiences to relate that I hope will help you, herbgeek. all of us here as we age. I have none, but wish you, your mom and the rest of your family good luck with this situation.
there fixed it.
We ALL need to be paying attention here. None of us are spring chickens.
happystuff
6-17-21, 1:08pm
there fixed it.
We ALL need to be paying attention here. None of us are spring chickens.
Good point - thanks for "fixing" it.
iris lilies
6-17-21, 1:21pm
Good point - thanks for "fixing" it.
In my household I truly do not think I would mind being moved to a small place that is easy to take care of. Two rooms and a little patio would make me happy. However – I’ll tell you — I would have a very hard time swallowing having to live in a plain modern building that all these assisted-living places are in. That would be the stickler.
I’ve already scoped out the assisted living place in Hermann and it is hideous. It is One of those modern sprawling buildings built by the highway, where even the setting is not nice in a place where the setting COULD be nice.
I might have to go back to St. Louis where there are assisted living places in the old nunneries and multiple Catholic Church facilities around here. Those structures are cool.
.
Oh by the way I would love having someone cook for me two times a day. Bring it that on baby!
DH will be the one who is hard to move. I hope I’m dead and do not have to move him feom his Hermann aceeage. It is really hard for men who are constantly Building, fixing, and maintaining large areas to move to assisted living where all the sudden there’s nothing to do. All the wood shops in the world in those places do not make up for this.
frugal-one
6-17-21, 1:33pm
In my household I truly do not think I would mind being moved to a small place that is easy to take care of. Two rooms and a little patio would make me happy. However – I’ll tell you — I would have a very hard time swallowing having to live in a plain modern building that all these assisted-living places are in. That would be the stickler.
I’ve already scoped out the assisted living place in Hermann and it is hideous. It is One of those modern sprawling buildings built by the highway, where even the setting is not nice in a place where the setting COULD be nice.
I might have to go back to St. Louis where there are assisted living places in the old nunneries and multiple Catholic Church facilities around here. Those structures are cool.
.
Oh by the way I would love having someone cook for me two times a day. Bring it that on baby!
DH will be the one who is hard to move. I hope I’m dead and do not have to move him feom his Hermann aceeage. It is really hard for men who are constantly Building, fixing, and maintaining large areas to move to assisted living where all the sudden there’s nothing to do. All the wood shops in the world in those places do not make up for this.
Cold, drafty, mold.... old building can be a nightmare too. Be careful what you wish for.
iris lilies
6-17-21, 1:40pm
Cold, drafty, mold.... old building can be a nightmare too. Be careful what you wish for.
Umm…ok.
I remember my MIL, who was always so stalwart and active, showed some signs of lethargy and maybe even depression at the end of her life. She told us that nothing excited her anymore. ...
I fervently hope I lose interest in life just before I die--I'd hate to leave wanting more.
iris lilies
6-17-21, 3:41pm
I fervently hope I lose interest in life just before I die--I'd hate to leave wanting more.
Yeah, that shows the kindness of Mother Nature, having us wanting to check out at about the same time we DO check out.
Teacher Terry
6-17-21, 6:17pm
My mom never lost her interest in living even being a few months short of 90. Her sister is 96 and had to go to assisted living and is now done. She needs a wheelchair and is almost blind.
Having seen my mom and dad so desperately want to die at home, I think I will set a year by which, if I am not dead, that I will move into assisted living myself, so as to build the best life there I can,, for whatever years I have left.
It's just really hard to pick an age where I would be ready to leave my gardens, my riding mower, my place to do projects--but it's still a really good idea to pick the age myself and work towards that.
I can see why someone would feel bad having someone else make these decisions for them, even though they are the only sane decisions to make. Still, I want to make the decision, so that I am not scaring my family and living in squalor.
This is without the wild card of dementia, which would definitely speed up the process of getting out of my house, as I think it's possible to glide towards death rather than crash and burn the way some people do, insisting on remaining at home.
With dementia, it becomes really hard to control one's mood, although my mother did a great job for many years remaining cheerful. But to make oneself be brave and cheerful requires a lot of capacity and self control and it's not really possible at the end. although I see my mom working hard not to blow up at people. She remains polite most of the time, which I think is incredibly gracious, under the godawful circumstances that she has had to live over the past two years.
Teacher Terry
6-17-21, 8:53pm
My aunt made the decision to go by herself.
iris lilies
6-17-21, 9:06pm
I talked about one of my garden club lady friends who is hale and hearty and in her mid 70’s. But she lives in one of those houses that requires a lot of upkeep in a place that requires a ton of upkeep. Her kids are talking to her about looking for a place to live. She has a husband who doesn’t want to do the upkeep anymore.
She went to one of the extensive, expensive step by step senior living places, a place not too far from where she lives. And she told me that after looking into it she has decided not to move.
You all said she’s too young to move! . No I don’t think she’s too young at all, At least, she’s not too young to downsize and get a plan in place. I have another garden club lady friend who is a similar age who has another big old giant impossible to maintain house that’s 130 years old. She has just started to downsize. Her husband has thousands of books. He let go of three of them last week in their downsizing exercise.
This is all this madness, I want nothing to do with this sort of thing.
And then I think about my friends who are 82 years old who sold their giant Victorian house 12 years ago to move into a sleek condo. They had to get rid of stuff from a 4500 square-foot house,a 35 year accumulation, a chore for sure. But they are hearty and active. I mean they are super active, still working part time jobs, very social, community gardens, trips to Europe every year. I want to be them and not the sad people are who are hanging onto their decaying properties with their fingernails.
rosarugosa
6-18-21, 7:08am
there fixed it.
We ALL need to be paying attention here. None of us are spring chickens.
Even spring chickens do not stay spring chickens.
I have chosen 80 as the age I would like to die. My sister says life's cruel joke will be for me to live to 100, or I could certainly die tomorrow. But I do think 80 is a good age to go.
Even spring chickens do not stay spring chickens.
I have chosen 80 as the age I would like to die. My sister says life's cruel joke will be for me to live to 100, or I could certainly die tomorrow. But I do think 80 is a good age to go.
I took two of those "how long do you have to live" indicators and one said 83 and one said 84, and I thought, alright, I can live with that.
That would spare me the last ten years of my mom's life, which have been pretty horrible.
I was surprised at different posts about the age preferred to depart our beautiful world.:)
https://media.nmfn.com/tnetwork/lifespan/#13 is one lifespan indicator to explore.
I expect to live to 100 and that lifespan calculator suggests 96 years. I am comfy with that and I expect to fully enjoy my life til then.
There is a lot of wisdom in downsizing to a manageable setting. I downsized from a farm to my little house which will work for the longterm according to https://www.aarp.org/livable-communities/housing/info-2020/homefit-guide.html?cmp=RDRCT-a44b133a-20200722.
I expect to hire snow removal and grass cutting at some point as well as house cleaning once a week.
Menu planning is simple, food delivery is available and I can go shopping nearby on a mobility scooter if that becomes necessary. Zoom church services, streaming options and online contact with family and friends will expand in the coming years.
I think people struggle with downsizing because they fear the changes that may result instead of seeking solutions to the fears as they arise. The status quo is not an option because life in always in motion and unfolding. I am grateful each and every day and seek to find and know the good that is happening.
iris lilies
6-18-21, 8:43am
Even spring chickens do not stay spring chickens.
I have chosen 80 as the age I would like to die. My sister says life's cruel joke will be for me to live to 100, or I could certainly die tomorrow. But I do think 80 is a good age to go.
We have two households of friends who are well over 80. There are 80 years olds running this neighborhood.
That isnt old enough.
This conversation reminds me of an essay I read a few years back and which stuck in my head:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/10/why-i-hope-to-die-at-75/379329/
90 is the age at which I expect to decline significantly, given family history. It could be physical or mental or both. So my retirement savings are based on supporting myself to age 90, because after that I expect to be in some sort of care facility, and if Medicaid has to pick up the tab so be it. I have paid taxes all my life - I am entitled to that.
This conversation reminds me of an essay I read a few years back and which stuck in my head:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2014/10/why-i-hope-to-die-at-75/379329/
This is interesting to read.
ETA: As the author mentioned, I am surprised by how many age-based medical tests friends and family have without a cause beyond this is what is needed for an annual check-up.
I haven't picked a number--I'm a play-it-by-ear person and I think that carries into my expectations for my death age. If I go by family DNA, I could live into my 90s, and as long as I'm still engaged in life and my family still enjoys my company, why not?
OTOH, I might die of a heart attack tomorrow and surprise everyone that my DH outlived me. I'll take it a day at a time and see what happens.
ETA to add my comments on the Atlantic article. Interesting data with the wrong conclusion (IMHO)
What he said about diminished functioning is of course true. But what he said about not being useful, or having no more creative potential as a reason to die is twisted. So, if I'm 78 and have lost hope that I will win a Nobel Prize, but I can still rock my granddaughter to sleep, or play with a grandson on the beach, does that count as a life still actualized in a meaningful way?
The great-aunt I talk about all the time STARTED caring for me in the summers when I was 7 and she was 78. When I was 16, she stopped driving and let me drive her around. She was 87. She stood straight like a soldier, never came downstairs until she was fully dressed in her floral A-line shift and stockings and 1-inch heals, earrings and lipstick. I never once had to take her to the doctor--one time she fell at the bottom of the stairs but she got up with help and was fine. She died at 92, rather suddenly, and just a day after I dropped her off at her apartment after our last summer together. Those summers when she was in her late 70s and 80s when she cared for me, she gave me so much. If she had decided she wasn't useful and checked out at 75, that would have been a tremendous loss for me.
I think it's ridiculous to say that 75 is the sweet spot for ending your life because you've squeezed all the juice out. What a gross generalization.
happystuff
6-18-21, 10:03am
I've always said 75 is decent for me. I may consider pushing it up to 80. My mom is alive and closing in on 90, but I'm just not sure at this point in time. I guess I'll find out eventually. LOL.
If I went by those women's magazine questionnaires, I'd probably already be dead. Averaging my parents' lifespan, I come up with 87. If I had a choice, I'd choose immortality, but we haven't got there yet. The medical community can shove their endless appointments, tests, and procedures, IMO--I'm not going to spend my final years sitting in a GD clinic waiting room.
My dad was 90 when he died, and he was engaged and curious until the day he died. Always picking up new hobbies and interests. His grandchildren and great grandchildren adored him, his funeral was attended by so many people I didn't even know, who talked about how Dad helped them out in some way, outside of any limelight. He gave from his heart because he had stuff to share, not for thanks, or admiration. I'm glad he didn't give up the ghost earlier. His mom was 93 when she died, and she was still playing piano for "the old people" (her words) at the senior center.
happystuff
6-18-21, 10:46am
My dad was 90 when he died, and he was engaged and curious until the day he died. Always picking up new hobbies and interests. His grandchildren and great grandchildren adored him, his funeral was attended by so many people I didn't even know, who talked about how Dad helped them out in some way, outside of any limelight. He gave from his heart because he had stuff to share, not for thanks, or admiration. I'm glad he didn't give up the ghost earlier. His mom was 93 when she died, and she was still playing piano for "the old people" (her words) at the senior center.
That is absolutely wonderful and reaffirms my belief that it is what one does, not what one has, that is important.
Your parents sound wonderful, herbgeek.
I am planning through 90, and after that, someone else can take over the planning.
If I am out of my mind at that point, well then I hope I don't last longer.
Teacher Terry
6-18-21, 2:27pm
Razz, the calculator gave me 92. Quality of life is what we all want. My dad was a vibrant, outgoing person who loved to help others and was totally disabled by a big stroke at 59. He didn’t have quality of life and died at 73. He had a DNR and refused all medical treatments beyond his medications to control his body movements so he wasn’t more miserable. His emphysema was so bad that one cold would have killed him. Despite us living next door and all of us catching colds and coming over he never got one.
My mom battled 3 different kinds of cancer between 78-89 and loved life and didn’t want to go. She had all her faculties and so does her sister at 96. I hope I keep my mind. It’s more important than physical abilities. I think the author is wrong about doing your children a disservice by living too long. My kids have great memories of my mom and everything they did together. I didn’t mind helping my parents when needed.
I don’t expect my kids to take care of me but my youngest said I made the right decision getting 2 bedrooms so he can come help when I need it. He hasn’t married and can work from anywhere and him and I get along easily. He would come help like I did with my parents. If I get dementia I have told them to stick me in a home of course because that’s too difficult to deal with. My mom needed someone to stay with her at times for between 2-4 weeks and I and my siblings did that. No personal care was required but she needed someone to cook, clean, do laundry and to make sure she was okay. That wasn’t a burden.
frugal-one
6-18-21, 4:34pm
Based on siblings, I may have, at most, 10 more years. That is ok since there is no family to take care of or care about me anyways.
No.
I misread. It is bedrooms not bathrooms. I will delete.
happystuff
6-21-21, 10:41am
Tybee and herbgeek, I know it hasn't been long, but just wondering how both of you are doing. Hope the situations are progressing well.
Tybee and herbgeek, I know it hasn't been long, but just wondering how both of you are doing. Hope the situations are progressing well.
Our situation could be going better. Siblings hired a lawyer that I did not care for, and he is not doing a very good job, in my opinion, and is acting all surprised that judge is saying that he has not proven his case. He seems to be doubling down on the first incompetent strategy, although I suggested he change things to be more in line with what people were doing here successfully (getting evaluation by neurologist, for example.) I am first ignored, then weeks later, told in group emails my suggestions are wrong. Guardian is shutting me out of Mom's medical care.
I am increasingly alienated from siblings, who think I am "a troublemaker" and think folks they have hired are wonderful, even though they are making a lot of mistakes.
They insisted on taking over and shutting me out, so all I can do is keep hoping mom ends up okay, and pray for her peaceful existence, not too bothered by all of this mess.
happystuff
6-21-21, 11:50am
Our situation could be going better. Siblings hired a lawyer that I did not care for, and he is not doing a very good job, in my opinion, and is acting all surprised that judge is saying that he has not proven his case. He seems to be doubling down on the first incompetent strategy, although I suggested he change things to be more in line with what people were doing here successfully (getting evaluation by neurologist, for example.) I am first ignored, then weeks later, told in group emails my suggestions are wrong. Guardian is shutting me out of Mom's medical care.
I am increasingly alienated from siblings, who think I am "a troublemaker" and think folks they have hired are wonderful, even though they are making a lot of mistakes.
They insisted on taking over and shutting me out, so all I can do is keep hoping mom ends up okay, and pray for her peaceful existence, not too bothered by all of this mess.
I'm so sorry that it seems to be such a struggle. I think you are right and now may be the time to concentrate on your personal relationship with your mom. Continued well-wishes and prayers.
I'm so sorry that it seems to be such a struggle. I think you are right and now may be the time to concentrate on your personal relationship with your mom. Continued well-wishes and prayers.
Thank you, happystuff, that means a lot to me!
It is so hard at times and the kind of issue for which few are fully prepared creating discord in families. So sorry that this is happening to you and yours.
It is so hard at times and the kind of issue for which few are fully prepared creating discord in families. So sorry that this is happening to you and yours.
Thanks, Razz; the discord with the siblings is now the worst of it, now that Mom is safely out of the other place.
Teacher Terry
6-21-21, 1:40pm
Tybee, glad your mom is in a nice place. You can be proud of that. I wouldn’t choose my siblings as friends. Very few people that I know have a good relationship with their siblings.
I'm sorry for your situation Tybee. It makes me think of the Courts of Chancery in Dickens's work, good only for the lawyers.
I'm sorry for your situation Tybee. It makes me think of the Courts of Chancery in Dickens's work, good only for the lawyers.
I thought of these, too, Yppej! My dad's death was King Lear, and now my mom's is Bleak House.
Terry, I am proud of what I did to get her out of there! Thank you.
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