View Full Version : Critical race theory
I’m curious what everyone’s thoughts are about it. And, I suppose equally important, what exactly is it and what is the typical K-12 curriculum for it?
ApatheticNoMore
6-23-21, 1:06am
I doubt it has anything to do with a K-12 curriculum. Maybe something for college students to debate, ergo inapplicable to actual living :).
Seems to me to be some form of focusing on race so much that you throw the baby out with the bathwater. And again of nothing to do with what you would teach in K-12, because if you just want to teach historical instances systematic racism it seems entirely superfluous, you teach red-lineing and stuff of that nature. And that's not a theory.
Things of this nature are still going on (you can call it separate and equal but ...) https://www.huffpost.com/entry/californias-race-prison_n_3087093
Very much in schools K-12 and being battled over right now. Here is more info: https://www.edweek.org/leadership/what-is-critical-race-theory-and-why-is-it-under-attack/2021/05
I can't speak specifically to that, but a couple of days ago, my granddaughter in public school kindergarten wanted to know if I knew who Harvey Milk was and what had happened to him.
That was their lesson this week.
Seriously, kindergarten?
My understanding is that it's a law school class.
People seem to be confusing it with aspects of American history. Heaven forbid that students learn about the dark side of our collective past.
Very much in schools K-12 and being battled over right now. Here is more info: https://www.edweek.org/leadership/what-is-critical-race-theory-and-why-is-it-under-attack/2021/05
Interesting article!
iris lilies
6-23-21, 11:23am
I won’t get involved in much here about CRT because I know next to nothing about it in the academic sense, with all of its nuances. And it *IS* an advanced academic concept, it started there and in the academic/ legal community.
Yes all of a sudden it’s exploding all over social media. I’m moderating two threads right now on Nextdoor about it. Not thrilled about this. But as long as these threads remain polite, they will remain.
That watered down versions are debated in the Twitter world and of course picked up and promoted in the K-12 arena should not surprise me.
Beware of mainstream media promoting this as THE ISSUE we all need to be fighting about today.
catherine
6-23-21, 12:07pm
I pulled this part of of the article:
As one teacher-educator put it: “The way we usually see any of this in a classroom is: ‘Have I thought about how my Black kids feel? And made a space for them, so that they can be successful?’ That is the level I think it stays at, for most teachers.” Like others interviewed for this explainer, the teacher-educator did not want to be named out of fear of online harassment.
I like that approach. Those are the two most important metrics for managing a classroom, IMHO.
As far as going up the ladder to people who decide curricula, I need more time to think about it. Do I think that Trail of Tears, the Holocaust, the murder of Medgar Evers, should be taught and discussed? Yes. Harvey Milk in kindergarten? Hmm.. If you take a 5-year old kid to France do you expect them to appreciate the Mona Lisa?
The article also references how in the 1930s, the American Legion tried to outlaw teaching of Socialism/Marxism. Maybe that's part of the reason Scott Nearing got tossed out of UPenn.
How do you legislate which ideas should be discussed and how they should be discussed? And which ones should be banned from discussing? Children learn by example. Young children learn from their parents; older children learn from their peers. A teacher's job is to open their minds to explore different ways of thinking. To teach critical thinking and methods of discourse. I don't know how you legislate that.
ApatheticNoMore
6-23-21, 12:47pm
I think it's got media attention because of attempts to ban teaching "critical race theory" in most cases without even defining what critical race theory is. Which amounts to pure intimidation. If you define it, it may amount to censorship and some level of intimidation, but at least the rules are clearer, when it can mean anything if it somehow talks about racial issues, it's just intimidation. So not so great.
The thing is I am not at all sure I would be very sympathetic to actual critical race theory (I accept systematic racism has existed). But teaching about slavery and the trail of tears, I'm sorry but when have schools ever not taught that as basic history?
I think it's the latest cleverly-manufactured "tempest in a teapot" in the culture wars. Whatever meaning the phrase "critical race theory" had previously is no longer the point.
iris lilies
6-23-21, 1:08pm
I think it's the latest cleverly-manufactured "tempest in a teapot" in the culture wars. Whatever meaning the phrase "critical race theory" had previously is no longer the point.
yes, this. Only I don’t think it’s especially “clever “manipulation of our populace, I think it’s predictable and ham fisted.
iris lilies
6-23-21, 1:15pm
I can't speak specifically to that, but a couple of days ago, my granddaughter in public school kindergarten wanted to know if I knew who Harvey Milk was and what had happened to him.
That was their lesson this week.
Seriously, kindergarten?
About age 4-5-6 is the age kids start to understand society’s slicing of gender and sex, or so we are told in ponderous tones by those educating us.
I suppose this Harvey Milk lesson is timed for that. ? This is why we have Drag Queens* leading story times in public libraries reaching that 4-6 aged audience
* Drag Queens are neither gender identified as opposite sex in real life or necessarily gender fluid. Confused yet? You and me both. I am now convinced that Drag Queen story hour fad is all about the appearance of being WOKE by the library organizers who seldom have opportunity to be edgy in their (perceived) role of staid librarians in a culturally dull, middle class institution.
I think that with so many people depending on the culture combat industry for a paycheck, it was only a matter of time until they came after a share of the education budget.
Personally, I would like to see more effort going into producing a more literate and numerate product from the schools than whatever it is the CRT people think they can accomplish.
ApatheticNoMore
6-23-21, 1:43pm
Like most of the insanity we have to deal with it starts on the right. Attempts to ban teaching "critical race theory" even if undefined and it's probably especially dangerous if undefined, are changes to the law, and therefore of some import. So the average liberal is left of course reacting to right wing attempts to shift the narrative, and all "huh, where did that come from, and out of nowhere, oh hmm now I have to know what critical race theory is". They may not know of course, there may be much group-think, but the thing is they didn't start the fire! If laws are being passed they feel they have to react somehow. So it is in fact a right wing and Republican attempt to change the narrative and it seems pass laws that do little more than broad intimidation of teachers.
Around 15 years ago my SIL, her husband and 2 kids came to visit and stay with us for a few days. SO's nephews were about 7 and 9 at the time. As we gave them a tour of our then new home we got to the master bedroom and spent a few minutes there chatting about the shelves SO had installed in the closet or whatever. 7yo nephew turns to me and says "Uncle JP, if this is Uncle JB's bed, where is yours?" I said "I sleep here too." His face clouded over and I could practically see the gears grinding in his brain as he pondered this. Then suddenly the proverbial lightbulb went on over his head and he said "Oh! Ok." And a minute later turned to his mom and said "you said we were going to dinner soon. I'm hungry."
Kindergarten may be a bit young for a discussion of Harvey Milk, but if done age appropriately I don't see a particularly big problem. Especially since there's a non-zero likelihood that there is a kid in the room who has same sex parents. And friends of that kid who are aware that the kid's parents are same sex. The first sex ed class I went to, all those years ago, was in fourth grade. For better or for worse I suspect that kids today are exposed to ideas about sex earlier than they were 40-whatever years ago when I was a kid, so we probably need to be addressing issues around this earlier.
iris lilies
6-24-21, 12:32pm
An added confusion to this concept is that Critically Responsive Teaching, also known as CRT, is a thing in K-12 education.
So if you’re reading about CRT in the world of education, make sure you know which acronym they’re throwing at you.
My objection to the teaching about Harvey Milk had nothing to do with "gender" issues--my granddaughter is comfortable with same-sex couples and has been in class with children with same-sex parents. It had everything to do with teaching 5 and 6 year old children about violent murder. Sorry I did not make that clear; weird to me that people assume this is about the fact that Harvey Milk was gay.
The Moscone/Milk assassination was way too complicated a story for primary school students to absorb.
iris lilies
6-24-21, 1:57pm
My objection to the teaching about Harvey Milk had nothing to do with "gender" issues--my granddaughter is comfortable with same-sex couples and has been in class with children with same-sex parents. It had everything to do with teaching 5 and 6 year old children about violent murder. Sorry I did not make that clear; weird to me that people assume this is about the fact that Harvey Milk was gay.
why was he chosen as a subject?
As I understand it, CRT as such is just another mode of analysis that focuses on race the way Marxist analysis focuses on class or Deconstructionism focuses on language. The real idiocy we’re seeing recently would be what I think of as CRT adjacent, where people make their own half-baked interpretations or misuse specialized jargon. Sort of like the people who use psychological tools and terms to analyze politicians they never met but don’t like.
Like that LGTBQ group in Seattle who announced they would charge a “reparation fee” to white participants at one of their events. Or that recent WaPo op-ed that attacked the “Hamilton” guy as a white hegemon who invisibilized afrodescendant Latinxs for not using enough dark-skinned performers. Or the NYC mayoral candidate who accused Yang and Garcia of “Jim Crow” tactics for opposing him.
I’m not that worried about the threat of the most recent educational fad. I sincerely doubt most Americans of any pedigree over the age of six will defer to the moral authority of public school teachers to the extent that it will have any lasting impact. Eventually it will collapse under the weight of its own silliness. If it causes harm, it will be more as empty intellectual calories than political indoctrination.
It's so easy to put together a straw man, label it "Critical Race Theory", and then let loose.
Fnord.
why was he chosen as a subject?
I don't know; she brought it up and asked me if I knew who Harvey Milk was and I said to my son, "not the Harvey Milk " and he said, "Yeah," and I said, "Yes, I had heard of him," and started talking about the sewing project I had brought to show her, since I really didn't want to go there, I was so shocked that they were telling these babies about someone being murdered, and worse, a hero being murdered. It was the violence that shocked me; these are really young children and back when I was a child, or raising children, you tried to protect them against certain things.
I think talking to children about brutal violence against others is really terrifying, and not an appropriate subject for kindergarten.
Teacher Terry
6-24-21, 2:53pm
Totally agree Tybee that kids need to be kids and that’s too young for them.
I don't know; she brought it up and asked me if I knew who Harvey Milk was and I said to my son, "not the Harvey Milk " and he said, "Yeah," and I said, "Yes, I had heard of him," and started talking about the sewing project I had brought to show her, since I really didn't want to go there, I was so shocked that they were telling these babies about someone being murdered, and worse, a hero being murdered. It was the violence that shocked me; these are really young children and back when I was a child, or raising children, you tried to protect them against certain things.
I think talking to children about brutal violence against others is really terrifying, and not an appropriate subject for kindergarten.
I had the same thought. They need trigger warnings to protect college students from “Hamlet”, but this is OK?
I had the same thought. They need trigger warnings to protect college students from “Hamlet”, but this is OK?
I was watching some new zombie series on Netflix the other night, and many of the episodes have trigger warnings on the initial title cards. We're not talking a sensitive Disney zombie series either, but a pretty kinetic and violent show, I suspect anyone watching it knows what they are getting into.
Also, one of the characters drank some whiskey in one episode...
I was watching some new zombie series on Netflix the other night, and many of the episodes have trigger warnings on the initial title cards. We're not talking a sensitive Disney zombie series either, but a pretty kinetic and violent show, I suspect anyone watching it knows what they are getting into.
Also, one of the characters drank some whiskey in one episode...
I’ve seen warnings about smoking along with the sex and violence stuff. Brace yourselves kids, they smoke in “Casablanca”.
iris lilies
6-24-21, 4:20pm
I’ve seen warnings about smoking along with the sex and violence stuff. Brace yourselves kids, they smoke in “Casablanca”.
Smoking may be back in Vogue in tv.
the recent “Mare of Eastown” with Kate Winslet, a tv production getting lots of buzz, has many characters who smoked.
I think all that smoking was to signal the working class environment it portrayed.
Quick survey. How old was everyone when you learned that Abe Lincoln or Martin Luther king Jr. had been murdered?
Second quick survey. At what age do kids these days have to do active shooter drills in school so that they will hopefully not die for someone’s second amendment freedoms?
Quick survey. How old was everyone when you learned that Abe Lincoln or Martin Luther king Jr. had been murdered?
Well, I was ~5 years old when MLK was killed, so there's that.
I think I learned about Lincoln around the same time.
I wasn't quite a year old when JFK was killed, so I don't remember that much, though certainly I heard about it a few years later. Malcolm X - I also don't remember the day he was killed, though again within a few years it came up.
I didn't learn about the Japanese-American Internment until about middle school. Age-similar friends of mine from California who lived in a town that had had Japanese-American residents removed to the camps tell me they didn't learn until late high school/college.
I think the nuns explained the whole "Jesus was killed" thing to me before the age of 6.
Yeah--that Jesus one was brutal!
I was ten when King was killed. I remember it well because my grandfather was a Chicago fireman who was stabbed during the ensuing riots. His stiff coat prevented serious injury, and he and a colleague beat his assailant senseless with their axes and left him bleeding in the street. It was a different time.
Growing up in Illinois, we heard about Lincoln and his murder early and often. Growing up Catholic, we couldn’t help but notice the gruesome art and statuary and drew the appropriate conclusions at a very young age.
I can’t remember at what age I learned just because people sometimes abused a right it would be ridiculous to assume that no one should have the right.
I didn't learn of the Sand Creek until doing a writing assignment about it in college. I was a full fledged adult before learning of the Japanese interment camps, even though a couple were reasonably close. And maybe I'd forgotten, but only recently learned the detail of the Tulsa massacre. Then again, I've read of the depredations and tortures of early white settlers by some native Americans outside of schooling. I was pretty up on the Chicago 7 (or 8) trial with out any help from the educational system and the murder of the Kent State students by the National Guard. Maybe some of that was just a little too traumatic for our young minds back in the day.
iris lilies
6-24-21, 9:02pm
I don't know; she brought it up and asked me if I knew who Harvey Milk was and I said to my son, "not the Harvey Milk " and he said, "Yeah," and I said, "Yes, I had heard of him," and started talking about the sewing project I had brought to show her, since I really didn't want to go there, I was so shocked that they were telling these babies about someone being murdered, and worse, a hero being murdered. It was the violence that shocked me; these are really young children and back when I was a child, or raising children, you tried to protect them against certain things.
I think talking to children about brutal violence against others is really terrifying, and not an appropriate subject for kindergarten.
I can’t imagine that Harvey Milk was brought up as an example of anything other than persecution of gay a man in power, threatening to some people. If you take away his gay-ness, he was a white male politician. If the kindergarten teacher wants to talk about white male politicians assassinated while in office, there are many to choose from. I don’t think Harvey Milk would make the cut
That is why I mentioned gender and sex and etc.
I think the kindergarten teacher, assuming she really did have a formal lesson of some kind around Harvey Milk’s assassination, made a mistake on several fronts and yes certainly assassination is a violent thing little kids don’t need to be talking about in class.
I'd love to see some very specific examples of the troubling curriculum being presented in our public schools. I spent much of the pandemic helping daily with a 4th grade public school class, in a dual-language program school, in a very "woke" district, and I didn't really see anything worth yammering about(*) on FoxNews or CNN.
(*) Other than my observation that teachers are dreadfully underpaid for what they are expected to do.
I can’t imagine that Harvey Milk was brought up as an example of anything other than persecution of gay a man in power, threatening to some people. If you take away his gay-ness, he was a white male politician.
I seem to recall Moscone also being killed that day, and that the killings had nothing much to do with anyone's sexuality. Dan White didn't wake up in the morning, have too many Twinkies, and decide to go gay-hunting.
I also happen to know moderately one of the other people who were on his hit list that day, who I have attended many firearms training classes with... I think the City of SF had 8 concealed carry permits issued at the time, and several of those permits belonged to other Supervisors. Some of whom went on to become gun rights supporters, some went the other direction...
iris lilies
6-24-21, 10:10pm
I seem to recall Moscone also being killed that day, and that the killings had nothing much to do with anyone's sexuality. Dan White didn't wake up in the morning, have too many Twinkies, and decide to go gay-hunting.
I also happen to know moderately one of the other people who were on his hit list that day, who I have attended many firearms training classes with... I think the City of SF had 8 concealed carry permits issued at the time, and several of those permits belonged to other Supervisors. Some of whom went on to become gun rights supporters, some went the other direction...
Wait—I thought he, Milk, WAS Assassinated because He was prominent in the gay community and was making headway in San Francisco politics.
OK I will accept that I’m wrong, but I am gonna have to look it up.
I seem to recall Moscone also being killed that day, and that the killings had nothing much to do with anyone's sexuality. I believe that's correct, although Harvey Milk's sexuality does come into play when nearly 45 years later he's still being martyred. No one would remember him if he were straight.
Perhaps people would remember Moscone better if he had something named after him. Like a ginormous convention center or something.
From that case, I remember hearing about the “Twinkie Defense”.
People have been learning about being fed to the lions and crucified forever from a very early age. While I agree that it would be nice if we all agreed to let children be children, but violence is part of our world and has been for millennia. It is only a very small part of the world population that is so sheltered as to not encounter violence from the time they were able to walk. Hate, judgement and cruelty are part of the human experience, sad to say, and inexperience or innocence are no protection.
I just wish that the delivery of the information about violence includes a balancing compassionate approach on how to cope with the negative.
iris lilies
6-25-21, 10:58am
I believe that's correct, although Harvey Milk's sexuality does come into play when nearly 45 years later he's still being martyred. No one would remember him if he were straight.
Thanks to Alan for bringing his usual clarity to an issue. Yes, “martyred” is the concept here.
As I careened around the web last night sampling headlines and first paragraphs in articles about Harvey Milk, I saw NPR make the point of Milk’s assassination being tied to the shooter’s conflict with Harvey on LGBTetc. issues. Oh also we should see Milk’s killing as part police brutality*, that came up on another website.
But thanks to bae, This is been a good exercise for me to examine what really happened and then how through the eyes of history concepts about that event are changed.
*Dan White worked, seemingly briefly, as a police officer.
I don't know; she brought it up and asked me if I knew who Harvey Milk was and I said to my son, "not the Harvey Milk " and he said, "Yeah," and I said, "Yes, I had heard of him," and started talking about the sewing project I had brought to show her, since I really didn't want to go there,....
That reminds me of sitting in the back seat of our car reading a newspaper and asking my parents what "rape" meant. I was six or seven. I knew it was nothing good, but I didn't learn what that day. Aside from one horrible (adult) book called The Last of the Sea Otters which seemed to feature a lot of death by orca, I don't remember being much affected by mayhem in the news. Maybe all the bloodshed in traditional children's stories inured me...
iris lilies
6-25-21, 11:02am
I'd love to see some very specific examples of the troubling curriculum being presented in our public schools. I spent much of the pandemic helping daily with a 4th grade public school class, in a dual-language program school, in a very "woke" district, and I didn't really see anything worth yammering about(*) on FoxNews or CNN.
(*) Other than my observation that teachers are dreadfully underpaid for what they are expected to do.
I dont have any very specific examples because I’m not concerned about what teachers are teaching. If I gave that impression, sorry.
Is there someone here on this board, writing on this thread, to whom your comment is directed? I’m not going to talk about specific issues because I’m not going carry the water for those who are arguing this point of view.
iris lilies
6-25-21, 11:10am
That reminds me of sitting in the back seat of our car reading a newspaper and asking my parents what "rape" meant. I was six or seven. I knew it was nothing good, but I didn't learn what that day. Aside from one horrible (adult) book called The Last of the Sea Otters which seemed to feature a lot of death by orca, I don't remember being much affected by mayhem in the news. Maybe all the bloodshed in traditional children's stories inured me...
There was a well-known award-winning book for youth (might have been a Newbury winner?) old now, that includes a scene where a young girl is attacked. She was likely raped. But the scene was not specific and all young readers really need to know is that she was attacked physically.
can’t think of the title, but it was for older youth at the time.
I think there is no monolithic answer for what scares children and what children should be exposed to in the classroom about violence. To the extent they can, parents need to know their children and know what’s coming at them that might harm them. I’m talking here about little kids 3-4-5year-olds because they’re scared by the weirdest things. There are some scary picture books out there!
Is there someone here on this board, writing on this thread, to whom your comment is directed? I’m not going to talk about specific issues because I’m not going carry the water for those who are arguing this point of view.
Not at all. I just hear natterings in the infosphere about all the critical race theory things being taught to our children, and I never seem to see any specific details from the natterers. Leading me to conclude...things.
Apparently the Republican party is advising its adherents to flog the social issues:
The Republican Study Committee's unsubtle memo was quite literally titled, "Lean into the culture war." The document added, "We are in a culture war ... we are winning." (MSNBC)
IL I think it was Julie of the Wolves. I used to read Newberry Winners to my 4th graders, but had to choose the winners before the 70s as they became too serious for me. Not that they weren't excellently written stories with well developed themes. Too old for reading aloud.
Interesting op-ed:
https://ctnewsjunkie.com/2021/06/28/op-ed-critical-race-theory-a-case-study-in-appropriation/
I thought the last paragraph was particularly interesting:
Just six months later, Rufo tweeted this triumphant declaration: “We have successfully frozen their brand – ‘critical race theory’ – into the public conversation and are steadily driving up negative perceptions. We will eventually turn it toxic, as we put all of the various cultural insanities under that brand category.”
Nice that he made it so transparent that all the messaging out there in the news is meticulously crafted to deceive. And I'm not saying the Right is the only villain in this regard, btw.
Nice that he made it so transparent that all the messaging out there in the news is meticulously crafted to deceive. And I'm not saying the Right is the only villain in this regard, btw.
Yup. I am driven to withdraw entirely from public life, everyone has pretty much gone insane out there.
iris lilies
7-1-21, 4:50pm
Yup. I am driven to withdraw entirely from public life, everyone has pretty much gone insane out there.
it isn’t in-person public life, it is the the wide “Twitter Universe.”
Today I found myself drawn into the issue of Jewish hate crimes on the rise here in the U.S. but decided to turn that particular feed off after saying my tiny piece. The world doesn’t need my thoughts about that ‘specially since they aren’t well developed any further beyond “why can’t we all get along?” ala Rodney King and “wow that sucks.”
it isn’t in-person public life, it is the the wide “Twitter Universe.”
I used to think that too, but recently I've seen the Twitterverse bleeding into real life, even in my small seemingly-nice community. I think a year or so of isolation, perhaps combined with the fun of the Trump years, has "radicalized" lots of folks to the point where they no longer interact in a civil way in public.
I almost got run out of my HOA on a rail when I presented our Firewise plan for the upcoming years. Apparently pointing out that the same amount of carbon is released from the trees and underbrush we wish to remove whether we burn the materials or chip it and broadcast the materials makes me a "climate change denialist". Mind you, this is in an area that historically burned, lightly, every 7 years since the retreat of the glaciers, but now has suffered from 70 years of well-intentioned fire suppression. A tinderbox, stacked with fuel. I wonder how much carbon and toxic products of combustion are released if a single one of these $million homes goes up in flames...
Anyways....bother.
iris lilies
7-1-21, 5:14pm
I used to think that too, but recently I've seen the Twitterverse bleeding into real life, even in my small seemingly-nice community. I think a year or so of isolation, perhaps combined with the fun of the Trump years, has "radicalized" lots of folks to the point where they no longer interact in a civil way in public.
I almost got run out of my HOA on a rail when I presented our Firewise plan for the upcoming years. Apparently pointing out that the same amount of carbon is released from the trees and underbrush we wish to remove whether we burn the materials or chip it and broadcast the materials makes me a "climate change denialist". Mind you, this is in an area that historically burned, lightly, every 7 years since the retreat of the glaciers, but now has suffered from 70 years of well-intentioned fire suppression. A tinderbox, stacked with fuel. I wonder how much carbon and toxic products of combustion are released if a single one of these $million homes goes up in flames...
Anyways....bother.
So are you advocating a controlled burn here?
So are you advocating a controlled burn here?
Nope, just our usual practice of maintaining our shaded fire breaks along the community roads, and installing a bit more where we fell behind(*). But, the material removed: do you chip it, or burn it?
We typically burn it on a lot the HOA owns that is designated as the forestry burn area. 10 years ago I installed a hydrant and some fire hoses there, we keep it cleared of fuel, and during the burn season, with permits, we deal with the material there. Making "carbon pollution" with our smoke of course.
In the non-burn season, we chip it, which costs more, and produces huge volumes of wood chips for which there is no realistic market on-island. The chips are then distributed about the forest floor in a manner that doesn't cause more fire danger. They decompose over a surprisingly-long period of time, and the decomposition process releases just as much carbon as burning, just spread out over time. Something about conservation of matter I think.
I guess the newcomers to the community think wood chips "sequester carbon". They also aren't comfortable with an answer of the form "we do a little of both, depending on conditions".
In truth, we try to produce biochar in the burn pile area when we can arrange conditions properly, and that *does* sequester carbon quite long-term, but it's not a 100% solution - it's about 30-40% if things go well. Which is way better than chipping or burning.
But who cares about fire science, and actual physics, when you can just get irate because you read an article on Facebook?
(*) The First Nations folks, when they were in charge of the island, burned the place to the ground every few years, to produce better conditions for some of the food plants they gathered here, and to keep the forest healthy. The last time a major burn happened here was ~100 years ago, so you can imagine how much fuel is waiting in the forests here now....
iris lilies
7-1-21, 6:13pm
A serious iris grower burns his iris fields every year. Or is it every other year? Anyway, it was fascinating to read about him doing that and it makes a lot of sense.
The iris rhizomes arent especially bothered by the brief fire washing over them, and diseased leaf debris is pulverized in the fire.
I imagine any controlled burn is hard on those with asthma or other breathing issues. Not to mention native critters.
iris lilies
7-1-21, 8:46pm
I imagine any controlled burn is hard on those with asthma or other breathing issues. Not to mention native critters.
While DH was carrying out his deforestation project on our Hermann property, for two years he had weekend fires for the the tiny forest he felled. Now all that is done. But anyway, somewhere in there someone called the cops who came to visit him about appropriate fire. As long as he had a “pit “it seemed to be OK.
He also chopped up a fair amount of the wood and gave to a neighbor for their fireplace. We had already made our own fireplace gas-burning and could not burn it.
I remember when we first moved here, our rural VT neighbor who has a camp here (I prefer "cottage" to "camp" or "cabin" but that's just my elitist roots) was nice enough to ask me if I would mind if he burned a lot of yard/lakeshore detritus in a pile he made on the common land on the shore. I actually told him I preferred he didn't. Looking back that was pretty ignorant of me. He didn't seem to hold it against me, but it sure didn't do anything to detach me from my identity as a "bourgeois bohemian" from New Jersey.
But when I was growing up in CT, they outlawed backyard incinerators, and God forbid you have a fire pit that goes a little crazy in NJ. So I had an inbred perception that yard bonfires were evil. And never mind the fact that my brother spent months in the hospital from 3rd degree burns he got from trying to light a bonfire on his birthday.
I feel differently now about controlled fires on private property, but I don't know enough about forest management to have an opinion on controlled burns there.
It would guess that chipping actually creates more carbon release than burning. If the wood releases the same amount of carbon regardless of whether burned or chipped it seems that one would also have to add the carbon release from burning fossil fuel to run the chipper as part of the carbon released during the project.
I feel differently now about controlled fires on private property, but I don't know enough about forest management to have an opinion on controlled burns there.
We don't do controlled burns in my neighborhood, there's so much fuel it would be a disaster. Once it is back in proper shape, we might be able to contemplate that, but that is easily 10-15 years in the future with the pace of work to prepare.
Instead, we engage in fuel reduction efforts to make the neighborhood more survivable, following the guidelines of the Firewise program.
Rather than have each homeowner here have their own burn pile, on random days during the permitted burning season, we do it as a community effort. Our community Firewise burn days, on our HOA's specially-designated lot:
- Have a commercial burn permit
- Are only done under the legally specified weather conditions
- Have had the site prepped ahead of time with excavator and hand tools to make it safe to use
- Have 2 trained and experienced firefighters on-site during the burn, making sure the pile doesn't exceed allowed dimension
- Have two charged firehoses for burn management, and extinguishment at the end of the burn period. We have about 200,000 gallons of water supply backing the hoselines
For about 2 months before each burn day, homeowners gather downed fuel and cut ladder fuels. And place the material out along the road about a week before the burn.
Our volunteer crew during the burn day uses pickup trucks, trailers, a large flatbed dump truck, and a small excavator to move materials from the neighborhood roadside to the burn pile. We usually have 80-90 pickup truck loads, and about 15 flatbed loads. It is a huge amount of material.
I'm glad we do it as a community effort, rather than having 60-100 smaller fires randomly happening during the spring and fall seasons.
For some of the projects, depending on the location and season, we will rent a Really Dr. Seuss-sized Wood Chipper, that you can stuff tree branches and most of the top section into. Household chippers that are reasonably afforded by an individual are so small and inefficient that they are a waste of time.
iris lilies
7-2-21, 12:38pm
It’s interesting how we pivoted from a discussion of critical race theory to appropriate burning activities?
It’s interesting how we pivoted from a discussion of critical race theory to appropriate burning activities?
In both cases, we see the advancement of nonsensical ideas, then a backlash and a backlash against the backlash.
In both cases, we see the advancement of nonsensical ideas, then a backlash and a backlash against the backlash.
Indeed. But I suppose that was to be expected once republicans got so far along in their platform of not believing the truth that they want to make it illegal for history teachers to teach it. Decent human beings were bound to start pushing back.
Book burning isn't likely far behind.
Book burning isn't likely far behind.
Yes, I'm actually surprised the collected works of Mark Twain haven't already been torched on the woke public square.
Indeed. But I suppose that was to be expected once republicans got so far along in their platform of not believing the truth that they want to make it illegal for history teachers to teach it. Decent human beings were bound to start pushing back.
I actually think they’re a few years late in objecting to such nonsense as the 1619 Project being used in the schools. While “CRT” is often unfairly used as a catch-all term for a wide spectrum of ideological piffle, I think there is a high level of falsity in claiming that these laws make it illegal to teach the history of slavery, Jim Crow, or civil rights. Most of them that explicitly clear. They are aimed at indoctrinating children with a particular political slant.
They are aimed at indoctrinating children with a particular political slant.
I try to read the Simple Public Policy forum to keep up but this comment made me laugh.
I read in different sources that political views are indoctrinated in children almost from birth like any other religion in the US. It seems that the problem is who is doing the indoctrination and what is being said. History shows that society keeps changing and defining new religious-like views except that now silos in social media echo one dominant refrain. If an individual does not like that song, the shrieking starts and echoes. Humans are funny creatures.
ApatheticNoMore
7-4-21, 12:23pm
I actually think they’re a few years late in objecting to such nonsense as the 1619 Project being used in the schools. While “CRT” is often unfairly used as a catch-all term for a wide spectrum of ideological piffle, I think there is a high level of falsity in claiming that these laws make it illegal to teach the history of slavery, Jim Crow, or civil rights. Most of them that explicitly clear.
I can hardly imagine the laws making it entirely clear what could and could not be taught. Though clarity and at least you know where you stand.
And what on earth would end up in the could not be taught group? I wonder if anyone can even answer that without the vaguest terms. If the law says "teach slavery and Jim Crow etc.", but does not make it clear what can not be taught, that is NOT clear guidance, it's utter confusion. Again why it is near impossible to imagine the laws being other than vague and a form of intimidation.
--
I read in different sources that political views are indoctrinated in children almost from birth like any other religion in the US. It seems that the problem is who is doing the indoctrination and what is being said. History shows that society keeps changing and defining new religious-like views except that now silos in social media echo one dominant refrain.
like the kind of person and when one will marry is indoctrinated in childhood (the gender of the person is another matter, that may be innate). Because it kind of is. Like how much education one will pursue is indoctrinated in childhood? Because it kind of is. Even how many kids one will have and definitely at what age one will have them kind of is really. Actually all this is much more than politics even. Some may rebel but their rebellion is a product of their indoctrination too.
The only indoctrination I remember as a child was that my family liked Ike (and mostly, who could blame them), and that "under God" belonged in our North Korean-style Pledge of Allegiance. I still don't say that part when I'm expected to mouth the words...
ApatheticNoMore
7-4-21, 1:01pm
Well they were Democrats, sometimes FDR Democrats. And one is indoctrinated into politics maybe at a superficial level. But one isn't indoctrinated into politics at a deep level. One is indoctrinated into values and worldview at a deep level, what a person should be, how life is etc.. That's the actual deep stuff parents and other significant adults indoctrinate. Plus that any political indoctrination gets heavily influenced by their surroundings.
My immediate family has voted all over the ballot from Republican to Independent to Wild-Assed Maverick. From Eisenhower to Shirley Chisholm and Ross Perot. I don't know where the indoctrination was, but similarly to ApatheticNoMore, I suspect it's more about values than doctrine.
I actually think they’re a few years late in objecting to such nonsense as the 1619 Project being used in the schools.
What specific things from the "1619 Project" are being taught in schools? Which books, articles, sources, lesson plans?
Mostly, when I hear "1619 Project", it is from people using it as a scary-monster-under-the-bed sorta thing to rally the base, much like mention of "Critical Race Theory". So when I hear the phrase, my natural inclination is to dismiss the speaker.
Wouldn't mind some details.
The sense I'm getting is that the (particularly) Southern legislators trying to cancel the teaching of factual history are protecting white folks from getting their feelings hurt or taking any ownership of the sins of our forefathers. Or something.
Here is a link that I found that might help to learn more about 1619 project, which I had not heard of:
https://pulitzercenter.org/lesson-plan-grouping/1619-project-curriculum
Here is a link that I found that might help to learn more about 1619 project, which I had not heard of:
https://pulitzercenter.org/lesson-plan-grouping/1619-project-curriculum
Tybee, this is eye opening for me. I could spend months on this site learning history from a new perspective while contrasting it with what I was taught - undoing what someone here rightly call my "indoctrination," hoping to have the wisdom to end up better educated and not under yet another spell.
Thanks.
I see, scanning the news, that Florida has rejected 41% of new primary school mathematics textbooks because they contain "critical race theory" material.
I'm curious, as a mathematician - what would be a specific example of problematic text in these books?
I'm curious, as a mathematician - what would be a specific example of problematic text in these books?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQgnkQpXMAE5Gzq?format=jpg&name=small
This is an example I found from Missouri.
happystuff
4-18-22, 3:43pm
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQgnkQpXMAE5Gzq?format=jpg&name=small
This is an example I found from Missouri.
And this is found where??? (name of text book) And actually currently USED in what curriculum where???
ISBN?
Beats me, you only asked for an example of problematic text. Here is a better pic:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQgoNDgXEAQCwF2?format=jpg&name=large
happystuff
4-18-22, 3:52pm
Beats me, you only asked for an example of problematic text.
Again, what is the source of this text you have posted, please?
Again, what is the source of this text you have posted, please?
As I said, I have no idea. The pics I shared came from the Florida Press Secretary's Twitter account as an example of co-mingling CRT with actual academics in a school somewhere in Missouri. I only shared it as a response to bae's request, perhaps you could Google it for more info.
happystuff
4-18-22, 4:06pm
As I said, I have no idea. The pics I shared came from the Florida Press Secretary's Twitter account as an example of co-mingling CRT with actual academics in a school somewhere in Missouri. I only shared it as a response to bae's request, perhaps you could Google it for more info.
Okay. Thanks. With Twitter as the stated source, that explains enough for me.
Okay. Thanks. With Twitter as the stated source, that explains enough for me.There was also an accompanying letter from the school Superintendent if that helps.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQgoNEnWYAESyjn?format=jpg&name=large
happystuff
4-18-22, 4:14pm
Superintendent from what school(s)?
And, actually, it sounds like it has been removed. Kudos to it being recognized, addressed and removed!
The bad stuff is out there, no doubt about it. But I think it is great that - when identified - it is being addressed and removed. The apology was a nice touch as well.
Superintendent from what school(s)?
Well, according to the text of the correspondence the answer would be the Lincoln County R-111 School District. I Googled that for your convenience and came up with the following site: Lincoln County R-III School District / Homepage (troy.k12.mo.us) (https://www.troy.k12.mo.us/)
happystuff
4-18-22, 4:26pm
Well, according to the text of the correspondence the answer would be the Lincoln County R-111 School District. I Googled that for your convenience and came up with the following site: Lincoln County R-III School District / Homepage (troy.k12.mo.us) (https://www.troy.k12.mo.us/)
Many thanks - :)
Again, the best part of all of it is the fact that it was recognized as inappropriate and removed. All good!
ApatheticNoMore
4-18-22, 4:54pm
So you call a benign piece of information about Maya Angelou like that "critical race theory" and you wonder why everyone thinks the fuss about critical race theory is either crazy or just racist. I mean only in your mind is *that* a problematic text.
So you call a benign piece of information about Maya Angelou like that "critical race theory" and you wonder why everyone thinks you are either insane or just racist.
I think it just made people wonder why that (and probably other things) was included in basic Algebra instruction, and if it shows up there what other unrelated yet woke material is showing up in their children's curriculum. I'm not sure where you get the "insane" or "racist" labels as there doesn't seem to be any example of either in what I've seen. Perhaps you could elaborate?
ApatheticNoMore
4-18-22, 5:03pm
Ok, I don't look at the full image and just saw the blurb at the top about Maya Angelou and was wondering what was controversial about it. So it was something from a website, well most of this stuff would be taught from textbooks, wouldn't it. They don't fund schools well enough to even buy textbooks? Lol, I'd believe it. And also I have no idea if any of these documents are legit. It's not a deep fake because a picture of a page on twitter isn't even a *deep* fake.
I’m still looking for an example from an actual textbook under consideration for adoption.
Ok, I don't look at the full image and just saw the blurb at the top about Maya Angelou and was wondering what was controversial about it. So it was something from a website, well most of this stuff would be taught from textbooks, wouldn't it. They don't fund schools well enough to even buy textbooks? Lol, I'd believe it. And also I have no idea if any of these documents are legit. It's not a deep fake because a picture of a page on twitter isn't even a *deep* fake.
So should I assume your "insane racist" response is just a knee jerk reaction?
ApatheticNoMore
4-18-22, 5:10pm
So should I assume your "insane racist" response is just a knee jerk reaction?
that's fair enough for a response to this post. I reacted without reading the full post.
I still have no particular reason to believe that happened or did not happen. The evidence seems to be: twitter. I mean look anyone with a printer could make a fake exam and take a picture of it. But if teachers are having to download exams from random online websites, why? Can't afford textbooks? If such a teacher exists I wonder what they would say, like maybe we have no textbooks or something. And the thing is some rando (teacher) did something somewhere is on it's face believable. I'm sure some rando somewhere did everything it's physically possible for a human to do. But that doesn't mean it's anything larger or that new laws are needed to deal with it.
happystuff
4-18-22, 5:13pm
I think it just made people wonder why that (and probably other things) was included in basic Algebra instruction, and if it shows up there what other unrelated yet woke material is showing up in their children's curriculum. I'm not sure where you get the "insane" or "racist" labels as there doesn't seem to be any example of either in what I've seen. Perhaps you could elaborate?
I'm like the superintendent and don't consider this "woke" material, but inappropriate material. What you posted was inappropriate material, was determined to be just that by the superintendent and was address.
Maybe I have a different take and/or understanding of "woke", but the material you posted - in my and the superintendent of schools opinion - was inappropriate. Woke or not - it was inappropriate and handled as such.
As I stated before, bad stuff is out there no doubt about it. But I think it is great that - when identified - it is being addressed and removed.
I’m still looking for an example from an actual textbook under consideration for adoption.
I mean, with presumably dozens of physical textbooks being rejected, there are some good examples available from specific published titles?
iris lilies
4-18-22, 8:04pm
This algebra worksheet with social science information about Maya Angelou is BOTH woke education and inappropriate. If you think there are not things like this circulating all over the education world, you are naďve. It’s just the sort of thing young enthusiastic teachers want to invent or use to “speak “to their students in their real world language.
https://clarkcreativeeducation.com/2018/04/24/21st-century-math-projects/
The author of the work sheet hilariously defends it saying he wanted to “destigmatize sexual trafficking… And deromanticize words like “pimp. “ He did remove the work sheet 8 years ago though because he thought others could not use it effectively without the context he had in his teaching environment. Now he laments the fact that everything is so “political” which does not make a receptive environment for his thought piece on algebra and The pimps ‘n whores world of young Maya Angelou.
He made 300 of these things. Gosh I wonder what else he included to de romanticize and destigmatize life concepts?
Things like this are the reason why I am sympathetic to people who pull their kids out of public school and look for a better alternative. I didn’t used to be, but with this kind of crap I can see their reasoning.
This algebra worksheet ....
... is a worksheet, not a textbook and presumably not part of the approved curriculum.
Where are these problematic textbooks that Florida is so concerned about?
iris lilies
4-18-22, 8:09pm
... is a worksheet, not a textbook and presumably not part of the approved curriculum.
Where are these problematic textbooks that Florida is so concerned about?
I don’t know bae, you’re the one scanning news saying that 41% of textbooks are reported as being removed. Why don’t you do a deep dive and come back with some information.
I don’t know bae, you’re the one scanning news saying that 41% of textbooks are reported as being removed. Why don’t you do a deep dive and come back with some information.
There doesn't seem to be any out there. Just the bold claims from the Florida folks.
On edit: I just came across this spoof from McSweeney's:
https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/math-concepts-the-state-of-florida-finds-objectionable
iris lilies
4-18-22, 8:23pm
There doesn't seem to be any out there. Just the bold claims from the Florida folks.
On edit: I just came across this spoof from McSweeney's:
https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/math-concepts-the-state-of-florida-finds-objectionable
oh I see, you are trying to prove a negative. Which is impossible.
oh I see, you are trying to prove a negative. Which is impossible.
Not what I am doing at all.
I'm simply asking for a pointer to an actual textbook for K-12 math instruction that contains the problematic CRT. There must be one, right? This isn't just some "I have a list" political stunt, surely? None of the news stories or press releases contain any real specifics, there's some noise about that worksheet, and that's about it.
Where are these problematic textbooks that Florida is so concerned about?
It appears they provided a list for anyone interested: KM_C454e-20220418122343 (fldoe.org) (https://www.fldoe.org/core/fileparse.php/5574/urlt/2122MathInstructMatNotRecList.pdf)
It appears they provided a list for anyone interested: KM_C454e-20220418122343 (fldoe.org) (https://www.fldoe.org/core/fileparse.php/5574/urlt/2122MathInstructMatNotRecList.pdf)
Ah ha! Thanks Alan!
By "special topics" in the chart, I'm guessing they mean CRT and other such things? Pity they didn't give a breakdown.
Ah ha again, here's their criteria:
https://www.fldoe.org/core/fileparse.php/5574/urlt/CoreQuestionsRubric.pdf
Ha, it seems that I found the list in under a minute, which you then reviewed and found the underlying criteria in under five, maybe it's not that difficult or such a mystery after all.
Ha, it seems that I found the list in under a minute and you found the criteria in under five, maybe it's not that difficult or such a mystery after all.
Now to find the problematic text within one of these.
iris lilies
4-18-22, 8:49pm
Not what I am doing at all.
I'm simply asking for a pointer to an actual textbook for K-12 math instruction that contains the problematic CRT. There must be one, right? This isn't just some "I have a list" political stunt, surely? None of the news stories or press releases contain any real specifics, there's some noise about that worksheet, and that's about it.
I’m just surprised that if you sincerely look for it you couldn’t find one since it now seems to exist.
I’m just surprised that if you sincerely look for it you couldn’t find one since it now seems to exist.
Well, I did spend some time looking, but my Google-fu was clearly not up to snuff, compared to Alan's. Happens somesdays.
Perhaps you are implying that I lied to you about looking?
In any event, I'm still curious about examples of the text within the book that is causing these issues.
In any event, I'm still curious about examples of the text within the book that is causing these issues.
The criteria you referenced seemed like a pretty exhaustive list of requirements in order to be approved as part of an official curriculum. I'm sure other states do the same so I'm saving my curiosity for why Florida was singled out for disapproval.
The criteria you referenced seemed like a pretty exhaustive list of requirements in order to be approved as part of an official curriculum. I'm sure other states do the same so I'm saving my curiosity for why Florida was singled out for disapproval.
Maybe it has something to do with Florida's press conference on the subject where they announced they had eliminated many mathematics textbooks because they contained "critical race theory" and other such things?
Now, how many other states ban "Social Emotional Learning", "Social Justice", "Culturally Responsive Teaching", and "Critical Race Theory"?
The "Special Topics" Florida lists are:
1. Critical Race Theory: Do materials align to Rule 6A-1.094124, F.A.C., which prohibits Critical
Race Theory (CRT), in instructional materials?
2. Culturally Responsive Teaching: Do instructional materials omit Culturally Responsive
Teaching as it relates to CRT?
3. Social Justice: Do instructional materials omit Social Justice as it relates to CRT?
4. Social Emotional Learning: Do instructional materials NOT solicit Social Emotional
Learning (SEL), as these are considered extraneous and unsolicited strategies outside the
scope of subject-area standards?
Maybe it has something to do with Florida's press conference on the subject where they announced they had eliminated many mathematics textbooks because they contained "critical race theory" and other such things?
Now, how many other states ban "Social Emotional Learning", "Social Justice", "Culturally Responsive Teaching", and "Critical Race Theory"?
The "Special Topics" Florida lists are:
1. Critical Race Theory: Do materials align to Rule 6A-1.094124, F.A.C., which prohibits Critical
Race Theory (CRT), in instructional materials?
2. Culturally Responsive Teaching: Do instructional materials omit Culturally Responsive
Teaching as it relates to CRT?
3. Social Justice: Do instructional materials omit Social Justice as it relates to CRT?
4. Social Emotional Learning: Do instructional materials NOT solicit Social Emotional
Learning (SEL), as these are considered extraneous and unsolicited strategies outside the
scope of subject-area standards?
I took those to mean that textbooks should remain on topic across all disciplines and ensure that the dominant liberal meme that "CRT is not taught outside of law schools" remains technically correct. Although it does make me question why only math textbooks were flagged.
I took those to mean that textbooks should remain on topic across all disciplines and ensure that the dominant liberal meme that "CRT is not taught outside of law schools" remains technically correct. Although it does make me question why only math textbooks were flagged.
That's what caught my eye, as I'm having trouble imagining integrating those materials into a math textbook.
And then the claim in their press conference that they had identified math books with CRT in them.
rosarugosa
4-19-22, 6:40am
There doesn't seem to be any out there. Just the bold claims from the Florida folks.
On edit: I just came across this spoof from McSweeney's:
https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/math-concepts-the-state-of-florida-finds-objectionable
Now that's a clever and amusing spoof!
That's what caught my eye, as I'm having trouble imagining integrating those materials into a math textbook.
And then the claim in their press conference that they had identified math books with CRT in them.
I recall a year or so ago there was talk among some in the educational community that math was racist and some states were suggesting that math instruction be refocused to an equity based method of instruction. Is mathematics racist? California could blaze pathway with woke math - Washington Times (https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/jun/6/is-mathematics-racist-california-could-blaze-pathw/) Perhaps some textbook publishers incorporated those ideas into their offerings.
All of this makes me actually happy I am the age I am right now and retired. My Dad is turning over in his grave. Instead of everyone working to make early education and access to it easier and more effective, they are spending time and money dumbing down content. It hurts everyone except those who can afford the money and time to get their kids advanced education and thereby makes it even more elite. But it does make the media happy and takes the pressure off finances by focusing it on the content of a few textbooks.
Big Sigh.
mschrisgo2
4-19-22, 9:08pm
Well, maybe I can shed some light- or maybe just muddy the waters some.
It seems to me that Florida is going way above and beyond, in attempting to draw attention to the textbooks, probably in their attempt to recruit others to their stand against “Critical Race Theory” and “Social Emotional Learning” in grades K-12.
Florida, Texas, and California are the Only 3 states that have historically done statewide textbook adoptions. And historically, the major publishers have printed a California edition, a Florida edition, both labeled as such right on the cover of the book- and a “General” edition (no additional label) for the rest of the country. In the states that don’t do statewide adoptions, i.e. textbooks evaluated at the state level and authorized for use (and purchase with state funds) in all public schools in the state, individual schools and school districts are free to choose whatever they desire, presumably with some public evaluation and input, i.e. public schools.
I can write, with almost 100% confidence, that the kinds of things Florida is finding objectionable in their K-5, but most particularly K-1, is references to families that are not “a white Mom and Dad, married before children, living in a home where Dad works outside the home, and Mom does not.” Any reference to same sex couples as parents would be taboo, as would single parents. And, heaven forbid, the mom is an attorney, and dad stays home with the kids! Only the “ideal” can be portrayed in any way in the textbooks.
An example of an objectionable item in a text might be: Juan’s mom is an attorney and works from 7am-5pm. His dad takes care of the children and runs the house. He often works 6am to 11pm. Which parent works more hours? How many more hours? “
Because the social studies curriculum in grades k and 1 focuses on Family and Community Helpers, respectively, there is typically a lot of integration with the math curriculum. Grade 4 is study of the people and culture of a region, grade 5 is a first pass at US History. Lots of places in both of those where the narrative that much of the rest of the country would accept as “real” Florida labels as Critical Race Theory, and Social Emotional Learning. And— certainly can’t have any of that!
[25 years ago, I worked for one of the major K12 publishers for 2 years. Part of my job was to actually Read the textbooks and be able to talk to teachers, administrators and parents about content and editorial biases. I vividly recall the superintendent of a very large district saying, “I’m happy that (your company’s) editorial bias matches my every day reality.”]
iris lilies
4-19-22, 10:43pm
Thank you Mschris.
flowerseverywhere
4-20-22, 5:18am
Many people are trying to get the details on which texts were banned and why through the freedom of Information act. Until they get this secret information we can only guess.
To tell you the truth, I highly suspect dictator DeSantis and his cult have a financial stake in the "approved" textbooks. I would be highly surprised if this is anything but political or financial as he gears up for a presidential run so he can be the next Trump. The funny thing is under the guise of freedom he actually is imposing more restrictions and taking away personal choice and freedom. If he had his way it seems you would not be able to marry the person of your choice, worship your preferred god or even be protected from gun violence and disease. Free dumb and all.
Mschrisgo- excellent explanation. I remember when (70s and 80s) our reading texts were questioned at a school board meeting. Those objecting had all the exact passages that were offensive on a piece of paper. they had not read the book. One they objected to was "The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe"!
The great name change seems to be happening here. They recently announced that the 30 various landmarks with "squaw" would be renamed. Squaw Pass, Squaw Mountain, etc. The Colorado Squawfish was renamed the Colorado Pikeminnow some time ago. Our first governor back in the mid-1860's considered native Americans an inferior sub-species to be minimalized. So the mountains, towns, and streets will be renamed. I've not heard the fate of Kit Carson Peak, named after the famous pioneer guide and Indian fighter, but it's on the chopping block, and I could imagine that Carson City might be scrutinized. Not to mention the sports mascots, although Thunderbirds has not seemed offensive.
More globally I was surprised to heard that the Nation Audubon Society would be renamed due to slave ownership. And all evidence of the modern father of ichthyology have been removed from Stanford due to his support for the popular eugenicist movement in the early 19 hundreds. Statues, halls, etc.
I wonder how deep it should go. Our forefathers have a pretty sullied history, but that was then.
Our forefathers have a pretty sullied history, but that was then
If you live long enough, you can look back and see how cultural memes of the day come and go in your own lifetime. Sometimes I see footage from the 60s and 70s and am reminded how crazy that time period was. Here lately it seems like we are going backwards though.
I'm currently watching a documentary on YouTube called Patient Zero--the myth of the AIDS super spreader, which references the zeitgeist of the seventies. It was a very hopeful time.
My brother died of AIDS and I was his caretaker. There were a number of times when EMS was called and they would enter his apartment with hazmat suits on as there was lots of fear over it back then. Sound familiar?
iris lilies
4-21-22, 1:52pm
I'm currently watching a documentary on YouTube called Patient Zero--the myth of the AIDS super spreader, which references the zeitgeist of the seventies. It was a very hopeful time.
If this is about the Canadian flight attendant, Gaeten Something, yes—-Randy Shilts’ book blamed him as pretty much patient Zero.
My friend’s sister did her medical residency in St. Louis hospitals at the time this hit decades ago, and because American Airlines was headquartered here, there were many flight attendants. In fact as I think about it, around a quarter of the gay men in our neighborhood were flight attendants before American folded. Anyway —the doctor/sister talked to my friend about the strange new thing they were seeing among young men hospitalized in St. Louis.
If this is about the Canadian flight attendant, Gaeten Something, yes—-Randy Shilts’ book blamed him as pretty much patient Zero.
My friend’s sister did her mefical residency residency in St. Louis hospitals and the time this hit decades ago, and because American Airlines was headquartered here, they were many flight attendants. In fact as I think about it, around a quarter of the gay men in our neighborhood were flight attendants before American folder. Anyway —the doctor/sister talked to my friend about the strange new thing they were seeing among young men hospitalized in St. Louis.
Gaetan Dugas. Shilts' book remains one of the best books I've ever read, but he greatly over-estimated Dugas' role in the American spread of AIDS. The documentary does say he single-handedly played a major role in spreading the virus from coast to coast.
Fun fact--I went into Barnes and Noble to buy And the Band Played On when it was literally hot off the press, and the clerk tried to sell me I'm With the Band, the charming tale of the exploits of a rock band groupie. Um, no.
That book by Shilts was fantastic, absolutely riveting.
iris lilies
4-21-22, 5:59pm
That book by Shilts was fantastic, absolutely riveting.
And the book by Pamela De Barres was pretty good, too! She was With .the Band.
I didn’t even have to look that up, I remembered her name
Every time I find a book I absolutely love, the author drops dead--usually before fifty. So far, I've lost Randy Shilts, Thomas Thompson (Blood and Money), and Michelle NcNamara (I'll Be Gone in the Dark). I'm reluctant to name a new fave...
mschrisgo2
4-21-22, 8:01pm
Mschrisgo- excellent explanation. I remember when (70s and 80s) our reading texts were questioned at a school board meeting. Those objecting had all the exact passages that were offensive on a piece of paper. they had not read the book. One they objected to was "The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe"!
“oh, MY! A WITCH! We cannot have children reading about witches.“
Of course, no context provided, probably nobody objecting had actually Read the book
“oh, MY! A WITCH! We cannot have children reading about witches.“
Of course, no context provided, probably nobody objecting had actually Read the book
That book was a hugely influential book when I read it as a child. I think Aslan was my first heroic literary figure.
“oh, MY! A WITCH! We cannot have children reading about witches.“
Of course, no context provided, probably nobody objecting had actually Read the book
It seems more likely to me that some few but loud voices may have objected to its Christian worldview even though it was contained in a mythic tale. But we'll probably never know.
mschrisgo2
4-21-22, 8:06pm
I took those to mean that textbooks should remain on topic across all disciplines and ensure that the dominant liberal meme that "CRT is not taught outside of law schools" remains technically correct. Although it does make me question why only math textbooks were flagged.
Textbooks are evaluated and adopted on a 5 year rotation. This is the year for Math. I believe Social Studies comes next year. That should be entertaining (sarcasm).
mschrisgo2
4-21-22, 8:10pm
It seems more likely to me that some few but loud voices may have objected to its Christian worldview even though it was contained in a mythic tale. But we'll probably never know.
Alan, that would have required actually reading the book… which is very seldom done by those who seek to ban books.
It seems more likely to me that some few but loud voices may have objected to its Christian worldview even though it was contained in a mythic tale. But we'll probably never know.
Alan, that would have required actually reading the book… which is very seldom done by those who seek to ban books.
Ok then, I'll be the one who probably never knows.
As a young teenager coming to grips with the fact that I knew I was gay I well remember the early news reports about AIDS. What a terrifying time to be coming to grips with a sexual orientation that meant risking potential death with any sexual activity. Although I didn't feel this way at the time, I'm ever so grateful now that I wasn't more precocious or confident when I was going through puberty. If I had been there's a very real possibility that I would have died long ago. The few gay friends that I have that are older than me would need extra fingers and toes to count all the friends that they lost to that horrible disease.
I mentioned on the thread I started about SO stepping up to help a former employee as her medical power of attorney that she was estranged from her family. I've since found out why. She had moved here from a small midwest town in the mid-70's. Her baby brother followed a couple of years later. And then ended up being one of the early casualties of AIDS. As he got sick and eventually died their family rejected him, leaving her with the sole responsibility of caring for him. Every year for the rest of her life she walked in the Aids Walk-a-thon to help raise money for the cause and was extremely grateful that SO was able to help her name the San Francisco Aids Foundation as the beneficiary of her 401k while she was still mentally competent to make such a decision.
I've always said that the most emotionally wrenching market research project I've ever done was ethnography research with HIV patients. They ranged in age from my age down to teenagers. I went to their homes and spent time with them, interviewing them about their experiences.
The older ones tended to be really battle-scarred, with survivor guilt. They expected to die, but didn't. One of them talked about how when he got his diagnosis he blew all of his money--went on cruises, lived large, figuring why not? Then he lived and he's now broke. Thankfully due to NYC programs, he lives in a nice apartment in the Village but he was emotionally tired--even then when I interviewed him in the early 2010s.
The younger ones were much more cavalier, but in spite of all the years gone by, and all the knowledge, all the antiretrovirals and other medicines we have, what we still don't have is a non-judgmental society. Even the young ones are stigmatized.
I spoke with everyone from promising college students to jacked-up people in Harlem. Every one of them had so much heart. Every story made it difficult for me to maintain professional demeanor.
One of the lessons I've learned doing market research is that if people--even the medical community-- thinks you are "responsible" for your condition, they dismiss you. So not only do you carry all the grief and fear of having a bad illness, but you may also be shunned.
I really wanted to write a magazine article about the many faces of HIV after that research was over but it would have been difficult getting permissions to do it.
One of the lessons I've learned doing market research is that if people--even the medical community-- thinks you are "responsible" for your condition, they dismiss you. So not only do you carry all the grief and fear of having a bad illness, but you may also be shunned.
I really wanted to write a magazine article about the many faces of HIV after that research was over but it would have been difficult getting permissions to do it.
Can you write a generalized article about Covid and this phenomenon, because I think it is out there, and HIV has so much to teach us about exactly this.
Not what I am doing at all.
I'm simply asking for a pointer to an actual textbook for K-12 math instruction that contains the problematic CRT. There must be one, right? This isn't just some "I have a list" political stunt, surely? None of the news stories or press releases contain any real specifics, there's some noise about that worksheet, and that's about it.
The Florida Department Of Education seems to have provided a few examples: Instructional Materials (fldoe.org) (https://www.fldoe.org/academics/standards/instructional-materials/)
catherine
4-22-22, 11:07am
Here is an article in the NYT today with 21 examples of the content in question. I think the comments are also interesting. Certainly not straight up liberal progressive opinions, but a diversity of thinking in terms of the place that "softer" values like self-esteem and self-awareness have in math education. Frankly, I could have used a lot more self-esteem when I was struggling with algebra.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/22/us/florida-rejected-textbooks.html
Oh noes!!! We can’t have students learning things like empathy. Completely unacceptable! That’ll turn them into woke groomers.
Here is an article in the NYT today with 21 examples of the content in question. I think the comments are also interesting. Certainly not straight up liberal progressive opinions, but a diversity of thinking in terms of the place that "softer" values like self-esteem and self-awareness have in math education. Frankly, I could have used a lot more self-esteem when I was struggling with algebra.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/22/us/florida-rejected-textbooks.html
Aack! I had forgotten how pervasive ed school policies had spread their tentacles into the curriculum. (Ed School Follies appalled me years ago). I don't want a bunch of touchy-feely crap filling the math texts my exorbitant taxes are paying for.
“A math biography is a way of helping kids,” Professor Jones said. “There is a fair amount of evidence that indicates that if you can surface your uncertainty and anxiety about something, it’s easier to grapple with it and manage it.”
Teachers could read the biographies to learn which students need extra support, she added.
Some McGraw Hill pages include social-emotional prompts that have little to do with the math problems, such as this example below from a fifth-grade book. Beneath an ordinary math problem, students are asked, “How can you understand your feelings?” --NYT article
The problem I have with these specific examples, and with nearly every other math textbook I have examined over the past 20 years, has nothing to do with any perceived "wokeness" of the text. Rather, it's that the textbook itself is poor - dreadful layout, overly-busy graphics design, examples poorly chosen (I mean, look at the chart in that example there, it doesn't originate at '0', rather it compresses the first part of the data which poorly conveys the data... Read your Tufte, writers!). Etc.
There's no excuse for designing publications so poorly. (Well, unless your intent is to have lots of shiny busy colorful pages to attract textbook reviewers with no subject-matter knowledge...)
Read your Tufte, writers!). Etc.
Wow! You know Tufte? He has definitely influenced the way I present data in my presentations. I took one of his workshops.
The problem I have with these specific examples, and with nearly every other math textbook I have examined over the past 20 years, has nothing to do with any perceived "wokeness" of the text. Rather, it's that the textbook itself is poor - dreadful layout, overly-busy graphics design, examples poorly chosen (I mean, look at the chart in that example there, it doesn't originate at '0', rather it compresses the first part of the data which poorly conveys the data... Read your Tufte, writers!). Etc.
There's no excuse for designing publications so poorly. (Well, unless your intent is to have lots of shiny busy colorful pages to attract textbook reviewers with no subject-matter knowledge...)
I noticed that, too. Cutesy cartoons and badly-designed pages--most of it unnecessary.
You jogged my memory; Tufte was a fixture in some of my classes.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.