View Full Version : France's solution to the pandemic and those unvaccinated
frugal-one
7-30-21, 1:57pm
French President lays it on the line.
Below is the summary of Macron's speech yesterday in France announcing measures for those who do not want to be vaccinated. Already today there were a million appointments to get vaccinated
"I am in favor of the French line right now. I no longer have any intention of sacrificing my life, my time, my freedom and the adolescence of my daughters, as well as their right to study properly, for those who refuse to be vaccinated. This time you stay at home, not us. "
In France, those who do not get vaccinated will no longer be able to go to restaurants, cafes (from the beginning of August), cinemas and museums (from July 21) and get on airplanes or trains (again from August). Alternatively, you will have to submit a negative test, which will no longer be free (49 euros for the PCR, 29 for the antigen) Macron then announced the vaccination obligation for medical personnel and for those who work in contact with fragile people. Since September 15, a nurse who has refused to be vaccinated will no longer be able to go to work and receive a salary. "We cannot make those who have the civic sense to get vaccinated bear the burden of inconvenience," Macron said. "The restrictions will weigh on others, those who for reasons incomprehensible in the country of Louis Pasteur, science and the Enlightenment still hesitate to use the only weapon available against the pandemic, the vaccine" "I am aware of what I am asking you," he said, "and I know that you are ready for this commitment. This is, in a sense, part of your sense of duty."
Wow, I think this is awesome! Enter the protesters!
No surprise there. This is a country where you can't wear a yarmulke, a cross, or a hijab to school. It is much more collectivist and much less focused on individual liberties than the United States.
iris lilies
7-30-21, 2:44pm
No surprise there. This is a country where you can't wear a yarmulke, a cross, or a hijab to school. It is much more collectivist and much less focused on individual liberties than the United States.
Agreed. The lockdown of freedom in France isnt something I want us to emulate.
I have been shocked multiple times when Reading about limitations in France. The last time was this: French government upheld law that forbid POSITIVE representation of Down’s Syndrome kids in advertising around abortion.
When I looked for a citation for that I ran across this shocker below. Granted, I do not know if this is an authoritarive source. It seems unbelievable to me, but then like I said, I have been shocked multiple times about France’s casualness re: rights of the individual. This in the home of the Marquis de Lafayette, drafter of Declaration of The Rights of man. Mon Dieu.
https://lejeunefoundation.org/france-wants-to-normalize-abortion-of-babies-with-down-syndrome/
frugal-one
7-30-21, 3:08pm
IMO we are never going to end the pandemic unless all people get vaccinated. It will be interesting to see how fast their lives get back to normal and if additional variants arise or, if so, how fast. We are in a pandemic and drastic measures must be taken. No one should have the freedom to infect others IMO. It is also shocking to me that this is a political issue instead of a medical and moral one.
frugal-one
7-30-21, 3:09pm
No surprise there. This is a country where you can't wear a yarmulke, a cross, or a hijab to school. It is much more collectivist and much less focused on individual liberties than the United States.
These issues you mention are not something that affects the entire population and causes death. A pandemic is another matter entirely.
IMO we are never going to end the pandemic unless all people get vaccinated. It will be interesting to see how fast their lives get back to normal and if additional variants arise or, if so, how fast. We are in a pandemic and drastic measures must be taken. No one should have the freedom to infect others IMO. It is also shocking to me that this is a political issue instead of a medical and moral one.
Do you think we should jab the needle in the newborn as soon as it pops out of the womb? Babies slobber and are very germy.
Where I am the only big group not vaccinated yet are babies and little children. Most of the adults have their shots - more than the herd immunity level of 70%.
iris lilies
7-30-21, 3:19pm
These issues you mention are not something that affects the entire population and causes death. A pandemic is another matter entirely.
Someone capable of abstract thinking will be able to draw connective lines between
Jane Doe’s religious apparal outlawed today and our own religious apparal outlawed tomorrow.
France, multiple times, outlawed modest apparel on beaches. Yes it’s true look it up. It was not a national approach if I remember correctly, it was various jurisdictions acting independently. But still, shocking. Imagine the police hauling someone off to jail because “lady, you have too much clothing on! You can’t do that in public! “
I don’t personally see much connection between rules about apparel and rules that benefit public health. Probably a better comparison are rules about driving and rules about public health. Maybe we should eliminate drunk driving rules? Undoubtedly some people would like the freedom to drive drunk or ignore stop signs.
iris lilies
7-30-21, 4:42pm
I don’t personally see much connection between rules about apparel and rules that benefit public health. Probably a better comparison are rules about driving and rules about public health. Maybe we should eliminate drunk driving rules? Undoubtedly some people would like the freedom to drive drunk or ignore stop signs.
There’s an overall lack of respect for individual rights in France. That is the abstract generalization.
A driver who is truly drunk is impaired 100% of the time and when operating a multi thousand pound vehicle, he is a danger 100% of the time.
A citizen who is unvaccinated is not a threat to other citizens 100% of the time, plus, there are ways to mitigate a potential risk such as —communing outdoors only and in small groups, staying distanced, wearing masks properly.
I see nothing wrong with citizens exercising social censure with their friends and relatives who do not get vaccinated. There’s nothing wrong with shaming them or staying away from them and telling them why. But that is not The action of a centralized government.
Isn't abortion still a personal choice in France? I'm not sure how data collection will affect that--but in general the less data collection, the better.
At any rate, I agree that those unwilling to get vaxxed or submit to testing, mask up, and practice social distancing should sequester themselves (and I would applaud that approach). But they seem to be all about getting up in people's faces and screaming about freedom.
happystuff
7-30-21, 4:54pm
There’s an overall lack of respect for individual rights in France. That is the abstract generalization.
A driver who is truly drunk is impaired 100% of the time and when operating a multi thousand pound vehicle, he is a danger 100% of the time.
A citizen who is unvaccinated is not a threat to other citizens 100% of the time, plus, there are ways to mitigate a potential risk such as —communing outdoors only and in small groups, staying distanced, wearing masks properly.
I see nothing wrong with citizens exercising social censure with their friends and relatives who do not get vaccinated. There’s nothing wrong with shaming them or staying away from them and telling them why. But that is not The action of a centralized government.
I think the arguments being presented can be argued differently based on perspective. Stores have clothing rules (No shirt, No shoes, No service), schools have clothing rules, etc. The problem with social censureship is that, again, it will vary with time, place, persons, and circumstances. I don't have a good enough solution to offer up, but I do agree that - where rights are concerned - I have a right to NOT be threatened with contracting the virus from someone as much as I don't believe I should be able to risk carelessly passing the virus along to others (especially when there are simple things to HELP prevent that).
And we see in this forum alone that there are those who feel it is their right to NOT social distance, to NOT have to wear masks, who - essentially - feel it is NOT their problem to mitigate the potential risks.
I guess the question becomes - Who's rights take priority? Yours (generic yours) or mine (specifically)?
frugal-one
7-30-21, 5:16pm
I don’t personally see much connection between rules about apparel and rules that benefit public health. Probably a better comparison are rules about driving and rules about public health. Maybe we should eliminate drunk driving rules? Undoubtedly some people would like the freedom to drive drunk or ignore stop signs.
We are also talking about actions others don't or do take that affect others physical being. That definitely trumps (pun intended) dress.
frugal-one
7-30-21, 5:23pm
Do you think we should jab the needle in the newborn as soon as it pops out of the womb? Babies slobber and are very germy.
Where I am the only big group not vaccinated yet are babies and little children. Most of the adults have their shots - more than the herd immunity level of 70%.
Not relative to the discussion here. We are talking about a pandemic virus.
The problem is the variants may morph into more and the vaccines may not be effective. If everyone got vaccinated it would give the mutants less of a chance to infect and spread.
frugal-one
7-30-21, 5:30pm
There’s an overall lack of respect for individual rights in France. That is the abstract generalization.
A driver who is truly drunk is impaired 100% of the time and when operating a multi thousand pound vehicle, he is a danger 100% of the time.
A citizen who is unvaccinated is not a threat to other citizens 100% of the time, plus, there are ways to mitigate a potential risk such as —communing outdoors only and in small groups, staying distanced, wearing masks properly.
I see nothing wrong with citizens exercising social censure with their friends and relatives who do not get vaccinated. There’s nothing wrong with shaming them or staying away from them and telling them why. But that is not The action of a centralized government.
That is the question. Where have they been, who have they been in contact with, what type of immunity do they have, are they asymptomatic and a carrier? There is no way to know. The only way to get out of this mess, may be to have the government intervene???? I don't believe it is an individual's right to put the populace at whole at risk.
ApatheticNoMore
7-30-21, 5:34pm
I don't accept people have less rights in France, that could be parsed so many ways. They have less respect for specifically religious freedom maybe. I don't agree with that policy toward Muslim dress etc., but it's far more accurate than generalizing about rights in France IMO.
Giving people the virus as an argument gets dicey if vaccinated people can spread. The reason for wanting widespread vaccination is how long can the healthcare system (Frances or the U.S.) really survive on permanent pandemic footing etc.. How long can the economy either? Well, the economy is not best if we have constant virus surges motivating everyone to abandon going out again and again, but it can hobble along I suppose, although some things will close.
iris lilies
7-30-21, 5:47pm
We are also talking about actions others don't or do take that affect others physical being. That definitely trumps (pun intended) dress.
The dress issue in France, being too covered up at a beach, is really a freedom of speech issue. It’s not a public safety issue. Shirts and shoes at restaurants are tied to health here although I think that tie is tenuous.
I don’t know how far public safety, including public health, should go. I don’t know where the role of government should be in overriding an individual’s freedom, but as always I’m very leery of the feds stepping in to do heavy-handed ANYTHING.
Health stuff is regulated on a local basis anyway. Restaurant standards and inspections, health regulations, rodent control, etc. it’s all the province of my city health department, and probably they’re acting in conjunction with state health laws.
iris lilies
7-30-21, 6:15pm
Isn't abortion still a personal choice in France? I'm not sure how data collection will affect that--but in general the less data collection, the better.
At any rate, I agree that those unwilling to get vaxxed or submit to testing, mask up, and practice social distancing should sequester themselves (and I would applaud that approach). But they seem to be all about getting up in people's faces and screaming about freedom.
They arent getting into YOUR face so what are you complaining about?
frugal-one
7-30-21, 6:20pm
The dress issue in France, being too covered up at a beach, is really a freedom of speech issue. It’s not a public safety issue. Shirts and shoes at restaurants are tied to health here although I think that tie is tenuous.
I don’t know how far public safety, including public health, should go. I don’t know where the role of government should be in overriding an individual’s freedom, but as always I’m very leery of the feds stepping in to do heavy-handed ANYTHING.
Health stuff is regulated on a local basis anyway. Restaurant standards and inspections, health regulations, rodent control, etc. it’s all the province of my city health department, and probably they’re acting in conjunction with state health laws.
Not true. There are federal and state laws regulating health issues. If a fed comes in and the state law is less stringent there is a violation under federal law. The law most stringent is the one to be followed.
I believe this is one time the government should step in if people will not do the thing that needs to be done to stop this virus from continuing in perpetuity.
They arent getting into YOUR face so what are you complaining about?
Haha--touche'!
I guess "getting all up in my teevee screaming about freedom" would be more accurate. :D
Not relative to the discussion here. We are talking about a pandemic virus.
The problem is the variants may morph into more and the vaccines may not be effective. If everyone got vaccinated it would give the mutants less of a chance to infect and spread.
Everyone includes babies, unless you are arguing that babies are not human.
I guess "getting all up in my teevee screaming about freedom" would be more accurate. :D
I understand someone in Frostbite Falls is planning to scream about freedom at a PTA meeting on Monday. CBS, NBC and CNN all have crews en route now to get it on tape for use during each half hour programming block starting Monday evening through Labor Day. I hear the demand for that sort of thing is huge. :cool:
frugal-one
7-30-21, 8:27pm
Everyone includes babies, unless you are arguing that babies are not human.
You were talking about babies and germs ... not the virus... not relevant.
frugal-one
7-30-21, 8:28pm
I understand someone in Frostbite Falls is planning to scream about freedom at a PTA meeting on Monday. CBS, NBC and CNN all have crews en route now to get it on tape for use during each half hour programming block starting Monday evening through Labor Day. I hear the demand for that sort of thing is huge. :cool:
Jesus H Christ ... morons.
You were talking about babies and germs ... not the virus... not relevant.
No, I was talking about babies having covid germs that they could not just breathe on people but slobber on them too. I think I know better what I was writing about than you do.
Jesus H Christ ... morons.
;)
frugal-one
7-30-21, 8:59pm
No, I was talking about babies having covid germs that they could not just breathe on people but slobber on them too. I think I know better what I was writing about than you do.
Obviously, you were not coherent.
They arent getting into YOUR face so what are you complaining about?
Maybe she’s concerned about the health and well-being of the people whose faces they are actually screaming in? Like the cops defending the Michigan statehouse last summer for example. Or the various retail workers who had to deal with the maskless jackasses screaming at them like 4 year olds because they were required to put a mask on when they entered a store.
Jane v2.0
7-31-21, 10:04am
Maybe she’s concerned about the health and well-being of the people whose faces they are actually screaming in? Like the cops defending the Michigan statehouse last summer for example. Or the various retail workers who had to deal with the maskless jackasses screaming at them like 4 year olds because they were required to put a mask on when they entered a store.
Thanks for the backup! >8)
Obviously, you were not coherent.
Don't blame me because you make bad generalizations about "everyone". You still haven't responded as to whether babies should get covid vaccines as soon as they pop out of the womb.
If the covid vaccine is shown to be safe and effective in infants it seems logical that it would be added to the roster of vaccines that children receive. Whether at birth like the hepatitis b shot or at some later date, who knows. I'll leave that to the scientists to figure out.
frugal-one
7-31-21, 3:59pm
Don't blame me because you make bad generalizations about "everyone". You still haven't responded as to whether babies should get covid vaccines as soon as they pop out of the womb.
jp1 answered the question perfectly.
Wow, I think this is awesome! Enter the protesters!
And the protesters entered the streets today in France.
iris lilies
7-31-21, 7:11pm
And the protesters entered the streets today in France.
In the Land of the Bastille, I wish them well.
Reuters said protestors “…have taken to the streets, an unusual show of determination at a time of year when many people are focused on taking their summer break”
…so I applaud those Frenchmen setting aside their beach and country vacations, their wine, their relaxation to reclaim their freedom from the new oppressors. Vive la France!
frugal-one
7-31-21, 8:10pm
How idiotic... new oppressors.... if they do what they should the pandemic will end.
Probably not the thinking in France, but I was taught as a child to beware the mark of the beast - a national ID card that lets the government track you and persecute religious minorities. Requiring a vaccine card is a step towards a Big Brother world.
Probably not the thinking in France, but I was taught as a child to beware the mark of the beast - a national ID card that lets the government track you and persecute religious minorities. Requiring a vaccine card is a step towards a Big Brother world.
Oh please. I know you say you’re not a Republican but you sure do spout all the idiotic Republican talking points when it comes to the pandemic.
And for the record everyone knows the real mark of the beast is a red hat with four specific letters on it.
Oh please. I know you say you’re not a Republican but you sure do spout all the idiotic Republican talking points when it comes to the pandemic.
And for the record everyone knows the real mark of the beast is a red hat with four specific letters on it.
You probably identify as a Democrat which used to be the party of civil liberties. Now the Libertarians own that.
iris lilies
8-1-21, 8:21am
You probably identify as a Democrat which used to be the party of civil liberties. Now the Libertarians own that.
“probably?”
You probably identify as a Democrat which used to be the party of civil liberties. Now the Libertarians own that.
I'm not sure that we ever believed in a person's "civil liberty" to infect others with a potentially fatal disease.
I'm not sure that we ever believed in a person's "civil liberty" to infect others with a potentially fatal disease.
If by we you mean Democrats consider that Ed Koch fought against closing the bathhouses at the height of the AIDS epidemic on civil liberties grounds, as did other Democrats in other cities.
Consider in the current pandemic the civil liberty granted to travel via aircraft, including to and from hotspots.
Why is it only the civil liberties to be maskless and free of vaccine cards that you wish to sacrifice?
If by we you mean Democrats consider that Ed Koch fought against closing the bathhouses at the height of the AIDS epidemic on civil liberties grounds, as did other Democrats in other cities.
Consider in the current pandemic the civil liberty granted to travel via aircraft, including to and from hotspots.
Why is it only the civil liberties to be maskless and free of vaccine cards that you wish to sacrifice?
Another false equivalence. Most people don't go to bathhouses as part of their day to day lives. Only consenting adults do. People do, however, go out in public on a regular basis. And when they do they are not consenting to be exposed to a potentially fatal pandemic that is more infectious than chicken pox. Thanks to the unvaxxed and unmasked we will continue to have this pandemic for far longer than we would if a significantly larger share of the population actually gave a crap about other people's health and safety. But hey, at least they have the freedumb to pretend like the pandemic is over. Why should they care if their actions kill other people.
turns out Macron never actually said that. All a Facebook/Twitter hoax.
iris lilies
8-2-21, 8:57pm
turns out Macron never actually said that. All a Facebook/Twitter hoax.
I don’t much how care HOW Macron announced his government’s continuing foray into mandatory I.d. systems of vaccine status. It is his intent to block the non vaccinated from “ entering restaurants and other venues” as reported in this AP story and in many other standard news sources.
The little Twitterverse miss- attribution seems like a small thing to me. All the hoopla about it is a good way to deflect from the real issue though.
https://apnews.com/article/europe-business-health-government-and-politics-france-d25494f4cf4ca6c6d1464188a89ece6f
The law everyone is protesting in France hasn’t gone into effect yet, but according to this article below it’s expected to pass easily.
https://www.politico.eu/article/emmanuel-macron-coronavirus-vaccine-france/
I learned In this Politico article that Frenchmen already have a vaccine card that they need to get into nightclubs and other presumable super spreader events, so the slippery slope started sometime ago.
That is unfortunate.
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