“An impressive display of sheer competence”

[LDAHL]

Is how Paul Krugman characterizes the withdrawal from Afghanistan. Tony Blair uses the term “imbecilic”.

Who do you think is right?

[Rogar]

They seem to represent the extremes at opposite ends, so I'd say neither. The withdrawal was a reasonable idea, the execution of the plan could tend toward imbecilic.

[catherine]

I agree with Rogar. To early to tell which end of the spectrum it skews toward. Thomas Friedman had an op-ed stating that although it seemed rash and chaotic, the end result is likely to not be as dire as feared--Thanks to the strides made towards bringing the Afghanis to a different kind of life, it will be hard to put the genie back in the bottle--this time around there's social media and other forms of global pressure.

I think the extended presence of the peacekeeping force is something that had to end. We've had every President since Ronald Reagan trying to dictate how Afghanistan should rule its country and spent billions trying to effect that. In my mind it's a Vietnam.

Yes, change is messy. Was Biden naive in thinking we could just walk out and close the door behind us? Yes, probably. I hope he does mitigate the August 31 deadline by continuing to support evacuations, but beyond that, I fear for the lives of the citizens, particularly women and those who supported the previous government, but there's only so much we can do, and it's time, in my mind, to get out.

[Yppej]

I don't think the US withdrawal is any problematic than the Soviet one. Too bad we can't learn from other countries. Another example is going into Vietnam after the French bailed.

[Alan]

I agree it is time to get our assets out of Afghanistan but I'm embarrassed and disgusted by the lack of planning, execution and abandonment of our allies in the region. I realize that some plans may have been disrupted by the sheer speed in which the Taliban re-took the country but once that happened we should have adapted and brought in enough resources to send caravans throughout the country to retrieve US citizens and Afghan allies. The whole 'If you can make it to Kabul and past the Taliban checkpoints to the airport, we'll try to get you out of country. But make sure you bring up to $2000 per person to cover our expenses please' approach is a national embarrassment. If that's the way we treat our allies, we don't deserve them.

[LDAHL]

I see Biden has gone underwater in his job approval rating for the first time. His people seem to be counting on the voters forgetting about it by next year, especially if he can give away a few trillion more dollars in the meantime.

[JaneV2.0]

Perhaps intelligence should have foreseen the collapse of the Afghan army, but several pundits have posited that this evacuation will prove to be the most successful in history. We've already transported some 70,000 souls. What is coming out is that the execrable Stephen Miller, with Trump's approval, relegated the SIVs for our allies to the "ignore" file, as witnessed and reported by Olivia Troye, Pence advisor. President Biden seems to be getting undue criticism for things he had no control over--(like the refusal of millions in this country to get vaccinated, and the inevitable surge the Delta variant caused). If we could save all the Afghans who want out, I'd be thrilled, but time and logistics make that unlikely, even with superhuman effort.

[pinkytoe]

Only history will tell.

[LDAHL]

Perhaps intelligence should have foreseen the collapse of the Afghan army, but several pundits have posited that this evacuation will prove to be the most successful in history. We've already transported some 70,000 souls. What is coming out is that the execrable Stephen Miller, with Trump's approval, relegated the SIVs for our allies to the "ignore" file, as witnessed and reported by Olivia Troye, Pence advisor. President Biden seems to be getting undue criticism for things he had no control over--(like the refusal of millions in this country to get vaccinated, and the inevitable surge the Delta variant caused). If we could save all the Afghans who want out, I'd be thrilled, but time and logistics make that unlikely, even with superhuman effort.

As they say in politics, “if you can’t shed the blame, spread the blame”.

[JaneV2.0]

President Biden took responsibility when he said "the buck stops with me." I found that a refreshing change.

[catherine]

President Biden took responsibility when he said "the buck stops with me." I found that a refreshing change.

Agreed.

[Alan]

President Biden took responsibility when he said "the buck stops with me." I found that a refreshing change.I think the fact that Biden was held in contempt by the UK Parliament doesn't bode well for the premise that "the US will once again be respected on the world stage".

When Biden said "the buck stops with me" I think he was just confirming that our lack of honor and integrity is completely on his shoulders. I'm not sure that's something to be proud of.

[early morning]

Quote Originally Posted by JaneV2.0 View Post
President Biden took responsibility when he said "the buck stops with me." I found that a refreshing change.
Agreed.

+1

[LDAHL]

President Biden took responsibility when he said "the buck stops with me." I found that a refreshing change.

Yes, that’s the pose presidents usually strike while their minions and proxies furiously work to deflect responsibility.

[iris lilies]

Is how Paul Krugman characterizes the withdrawal from Afghanistan. Tony Blair uses the term “imbecilic”.

Who do you think is right?
Both?

we had to get out.

it wasn’t gonna be pretty.

[jp1]

To all the armchair quarterbacks here, what would you all have done differently? Judging from how rapidly events occurred there that the surrender to the taliban had already been put in place well before the troops started leaving so staying any longer would have just been a further waste of the already insane amount of money and lives lost there. In hindsight it turns out that Barbara Lee was right all along when she spoke out against the AUMF shortly after 9/11.

[iris lilies]

Is how Paul Krugman characterizes the withdrawal from Afghanistan. Tony Blair uses the term “imbecilic”.

Who do you think is right?

Since I take most anything Krugman says with a grain of salt, I’m not going to believe him. In fact I wouldn’t be surprised if he uttered this about Biden’s actions a month ago, Long before any action took place.That is the narrative he’s going to push so it doesn’t matter what actually happened.

[iris lilies]

Is anyone here getting many Afghan refugees in their community as a result of this display of sheer competence?

we are. I suppose the thousand afghans will get in my community is the result of the inevitable, whether it was competence or imbecilic action.

[JaneV2.0]

I suspect Afghans will make good U.S. citizens, given their relief in escaping a hellhole--especially those who have proven themselves as interpreters and other allies.
I think Oregon will be hosting some; I haven't heard about Washington.

[razz]

Come on, people! Sometimes, this polarized thinking scrambles your viewpoints. Check the basic facts aside from the tragic loss of life and impaired lives which are the result of war of any kind.

1.The Afghans got an opportunity to see an alternative way of life. That was the greatest benefit for any troubled society. What they do with the info is their decision.

2.There are a lot of Afghans who now know what is possible but culture and tribal loyalty are primary values dominating their actions.

3. It is an inhospitable country.

4. Pakistan is and was opposing the US and its allies for 20 years by training, funding and supporting the opposition. It now has to decide if it has a tiger by the tail.

5. US intelligence and each US president knew this as did all the other players and their leaders involved.

6. Different interviews with Afghan leaders over the past decade said that once the US and allies left, it would revert to Taliban control. History with Russia verifies this.

7. Once the announcement of withdrawal was made, plans were made by all concerned to evacuate those allies. Many Afghans allies immigrated with US help based on their understanding of facts already mentioned. There are many more but how does any country decide how many and who in such situations. Iraq is another example.

8. News media of all nations now have a change of topic from the pandemic and climate change but it will be catastrophic news as usual.

9. Is there a neat and orderly way of withdrawal under such tragic circumstances? How would you do it?

[Alan]

To all the armchair quarterbacks here, what would you all have done differently?
Since our intelligence networks advised that the Taliban would likely retake control of the country within a few months or perhaps as long as one year after our withdrawal we should have had contingencies in place to remove our citizens and Afghan allies in an orderly manner utilizing all major transportation hubs within the country. We also should have had plans in place to prevent the Taliban from taking control of the massive amount of military hardware, weapons and intelligence information which was left in country.

It's not too late to reverse some of those failures. Since we're being told our government is in close negotiations with the Taliban, we should let them know we intend to round up our people wherever they may be and while we're at it we'll be locating our military aircraft, tanks and other weapons caches and either reclaiming them or destroying them, please stay out of our way or suffer the consequences. Fini

[catherine]

Since our intelligence networks advised that the Taliban would likely retake control of the country within a few months or perhaps as long as one year after our withdrawal we should have had contingences in place to remove our citizens and Afghan allies in an orderly manner utilizing all major transportation hubs within the country. We also should have had plans in place to prevent the Taliban from taking control of the massive amount of military hardware, weapons and intelligence information which was left in country.

It's not too late to reverse some of those failures. Since we're being told our government is in close negotiations with the Taliban, we should let them know we intend to round up our people wherever they may be and while we're at it we'll be locating our military aircraft, tanks and other weapons caches and either reclaiming them or destroying them, please stay out of our way or suffer the consequences. Fini

DH agrees with you, esp with regard to the military equipment. He wonders why they didn't at least just blow them up?

[gimmethesimplelife]

Let me preface my post with the following - my opinion is likely low in merit as I'm not fully up to speed with Afghanistan and it's issues. We all know what my pet issues are and Afghanistan has not been on my radar.

That said, I don't understand why the US entered Afghanistan to begin with - and if such was done solely to destroy the Taliban's grip on power in the country - well, it would seem like the Taliban have won and all the US has done was to spend a lot of money and get young soldiers killed - and also civilians in Afghanistan. Based on the little I know Afghanistan seems like an epic failure for the US - though once again, take this opinion with a boulder of salt as I am not completely up to speed with this topic, Not at all. Rob

[catherine]

Let me preface my post with the following - my opinion is likely low in merit as I'm not fully up to speed with Afghanistan and it's issues. We all know what my pet issues are and Afghanistan has not been on my radar.

That said, I don't understand why the US entered Afghanistan to begin with - and if such was done solely to destroy the Taliban's grip on power in the country - well, it would seem like the Taliban have won and all the US has done was to spend a lot of money and get young soldiers killed - and also civilians in Afghanistan. Based on the little I know Afghanistan seems like an epic failure for the US - though once again, take this opinion with a boulder of salt as I am not completely up to speed with this topic, Not at all. Rob

Here's a brief timeline. I'm sure it lacks nuance, but it's pretty straightforward. Despite its simplicity it illustrates for me the complex strategies of nations. Reagan started it all to diminish Soviet power, and look how that turned out.

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/19/1028472005/afghanistan-conflict-timeline

[JaneV2.0]

...

It's not too late to reverse some of those failures. Since we're being told our government is in close negotiations with the Taliban, we should let them know we intend to round up our people wherever they may be and while we're at it we'll be locating our military aircraft, tanks and other weapons caches and either reclaiming them or destroying them, please stay out of our way or suffer the consequences. Fini

I agree with this.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Here's a brief timeline. I'm sure it lacks nuance, but it's pretty straightforward. Despite its simplicity it illustrates for me the complex strategies of nations. Reagan started it all to diminish Soviet power, and look how that turned out.

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/19/1028472005/afghanistan-conflict-timelineCatherine, Thank You. I will look this over when I get home and have undistracted time. Rob

[razz]

Here's a brief timeline. I'm sure it lacks nuance, but it's pretty straightforward. Despite its simplicity it illustrates for me the complex strategies of nations. Reagan started it all to diminish Soviet power, and look how that turned out.

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/19/1028472005/afghanistan-conflict-timeline
Really interesting, Catherine. I had forgotten that the active mission was declared over in 2014 even while the Taliban was regaining large areas of the country. Extensive plans would have been made then for the final departure, wouldn't they?

The Afghan war has been going on for so long, it is easy to lose track of the years.

I do hope that the opportunity to taste a different way of thinking and acting to benefit women will not be lost. There will be some serious struggling to see who eventually becomes the chief leader going forward.

[bae]

Who do you think is right?

I think a better line of questioning goes something like:

- why did we go into the country in the first place?
- why did we remain there after our initial goals were met? (Were they?)
- why did we remain there so very long, spending so many lives and so much money?
- did we expect to ever leave?
- if so, where were the plans? We had decades to come up with some.

Shameful.

[LDAHL]

Reagan started it all to diminish Soviet power, and look how that turned out.


Pretty good, from the diminishing Soviet power standpoint.

[bae]

To all the armchair quarterbacks here, what would you all have done differently?

Not been there in 2021 in the first place?

[flowerseverywhere]

One thing I don’t understand is why are there so many Americans there? Contractors? Mercenaries? Wouldn’t you have left when you heard the military was pulling out?

no matter how it turns out, Biden will take the blame. But prior presidents allowed this war to go on and on, sending money and people to fight a battle we were never going to win. You cannot win against religious zealots who will fight to the death. It was quite interesting that once the fighters would no longer get paid by the US they went away. It wasn’t their mission, it was our mission.

where did all the money go we sent there? We’re lives improved? Or did the contractors, leaders and their rich cronies get richer?

say what you want about Biden. He was the only one with the guts to get our troops home. The other presidents talked a big game but passed the buck. Like our government has done with healthcare, immigration reform. Oh, except for tax cuts for the rich.

and for everyone who is critical right now, why didn’t Trump, the great negotiator spend his last three months being a hero and getting people out since he said he and the taliban had a great relationship instead of wasting our time and tax money whining about the fake vote steal and trying to overthrow the government.

we never should have gone in. You would think the US would have learned by now to start with an exit strategy, not take 21 years until finally someone says enough is enough.

[razz]

say what you want about Biden. He was the only one with the guts to get our troops home.

After all is said and done, this will be what is remembered, I think. Previous administrations and the military leaders had plenty of time to properly plan an exit, quick or slow, and failed to do so, it seems.

[bae]

You cannot win against religious zealots who will fight to the death.

We seem to have won against Japan. And they seem to be doing well as a result.

https://www.history.com/.image/t_share/MTc0MTk4MDE0NjUzNTA3MDY4/nagasaki-after-gettyimages-615314464.jpg

https://gaijinpot.scdn3.secure.raxcdn.com/app/uploads/sites/6/2016/02/Nagasaki.jpg

[jp1]

We seem to have won against Japan. And they seem to be doing well as a result.

https://www.history.com/.image/t_share/MTc0MTk4MDE0NjUzNTA3MDY4/nagasaki-after-gettyimages-615314464.jpg

https://gaijinpot.scdn3.secure.raxcdn.com/app/uploads/sites/6/2016/02/Nagasaki.jpg

So should we drop the largest bomb ever on the Middle East?

[LDAHL]

So should we drop the largest bomb ever on the Middle East?

Or just wait for them to do it themselves?

[bae]

So should we drop the largest bomb ever on the Middle East?

Kinda not what I said.

We did however historically somehow defeat a society that was made up of “religious zealots who would fight to the death”, and then somehow proceed to win the peace as well.

[razz]

Or just wait for them to do it themselves?

Maybe I am being naive but both the afghan men and the women have seen an alternative way of life and it will have a huge impact. Yes, they have tribal loyalties but they do love their families just as much as we do. They as a people will find their own route forward.

It took the western world many centuries of alternative ways of seeing things to leave the horrific way of life behind although the colonial period recently around the world helps me understand that abusive behaviour is still ongoing as long as the population tolerates or excuses it. The horrific abuse of Black, indigenous, Chinese demonstrates how shallow is our standard of behaviour. Authors have written very insightfully about this.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Was the alternative way of life that good though? I mean yes it was better for some women. I mean we don't really need to belabor that. But I mean, were conditions under U.S. puppet rule really that great overall that that many would fantasize about those glory days either? Do they miss the USSR? They probably built more infrastructure ...

[bae]

Maybe I am being naive but both the afghan men and the women have seen an alternative way of life and it will have a huge impact.

Well....

You might want to go dig up photos of life in Afghanistan in the 50s/60s, when westernization was happening, and women were allowed some freedom, and the country was looking to "move forwards".

https://englishrussia.com/2011/07/21/the-afghanistan-of-the-50s-60s/

[Jane v2.0]

Well....

You might want to go dig up photos of life in Afghanistan in the 50s/60s, when westernization was happening, and women were allowed some freedom, and the country was looking to "move forwards".

https://englishrussia.com/2011/07/21/the-afghanistan-of-the-50s-60s/

I've read about that period in Afghan history--chilling proof that good times could go bad in the blink of an eye.

[bae]

I've read about that period in Afghan history--chilling proof that good times could go bad in the blink of an eye.

Look at Sarejevo during the 1984 Olympics, and then look at it just a few years later :-(

[LDAHL]

Maybe I am being naive but both the afghan men and the women have seen an alternative way of life and it will have a huge impact. Yes, they have tribal loyalties but they do love their families just as much as we do. They as a people will find their own route forward.

It took the western world many centuries of alternative ways of seeing things to leave the horrific way of life behind although the colonial period recently around the world helps me understand that abusive behaviour is still ongoing as long as the population tolerates or excuses it. The horrific abuse of Black, indigenous, Chinese demonstrates how shallow is our standard of behaviour. Authors have written very insightfully about this.

I am no fan of nation-building. Nor am I all that interested in writhing in guilt over whatever historical sins you care to accuse people who look similar to me of committing. I remember the orgy of why-do-they-hate-us self-flagellation after the 9/11 attack. I think there is a reasonable approach somewhere between re-engineering other societies and guilt-ridden appeasement.

Why not respond to violent attacks with an appropriate level of well-considered violence? Punitive raids, destabilization, aiding their slightly less evil enemies, etc. Make them pay a price without pretending to be saviors.

[razz]

OK, I am naive. I am seeing more of the bigger picture. The photos reminded me of comments that my dad made about the westernization of the country. He was especially interested in Russia and its future role after WW2. Thanks, Bae.


So it seems that the Shah brought in the western model for society mid-century which was rejected by the religious leaders and from the comments following in Bae's link above, the western model was not uniform for every Afghan just those in certain parts.

Timeline for Afghanistan which shows the Brits starting the current chaos with its intrusion.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-south-asia-12024253

Got really curious so did a Wikipedia search and was amazed discover: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Afghanistan Fascinating country and history!

As I have mentioned a few times before, I am amazed at and delighted to learn new info.

[Rogar]

Maybe I am being naive but both the afghan men and the women have seen an alternative way of life and it will have a huge impact. Yes, they have tribal loyalties but they do love their families just as much as we do. They as a people will find their own route forward.

It took the western world many centuries of alternative ways of seeing things to leave the horrific way of life behind although the colonial period recently around the world helps me understand that abusive behaviour is still ongoing as long as the population tolerates or excuses it. The horrific abuse of Black, indigenous, Chinese demonstrates how shallow is our standard of behaviour. Authors have written very insightfully about this.

From what I've picked up from the news, the Taliban takeover was not a matter of if, but of when. Somewhat due to corruption, poor motivation of Afghan troops, and miss-directed training but the US. We haven't had actual "combat troops" there since 2014 and have been mostly in a support position with equipment, logistics and training. So to preserve the status quo would have required increased involvement to who knows what. That's what I have gathered, though it could be bad intel.

So I have some compassion for the women or other medieval off-shoots of Shiriah law, but the choices seemed to be escalation, possibly including combat troops, or let history take it's course.

[razz]

I spent some more time checking the history of Afghanistan and I apologize for any comments that I have posted. It is way more complex that I had any idea going back centuries. They are a unique people. I hope that they find a peaceful way forward for their population, its health and wellbeing.

I will now revert back to my choice of non=participation in the Simple Policy forum (I do read the threads) as I simply don't understand enough about the issues to comment wisely.

[Tradd]

I’ve long held the opinion, as non-PC as it is, that certain cultures don’t have it in them to be anything close to a democracy. Certain Middle East and African nations come to mind. Tribal culture is a big one. If tribes have been warring for generations, is it even practical to expect them to cooperate in a government? I think the best you can hope for is for the group in power to not kill the ones they don’t like.

Did anyone else hear about the Cailfornia school (high school?) that took a summer trip to Afghanistan? They’re trapped there now. Whose bright idea what THAT, knowing the US was going to be pulling out this summer? I first saw the story on the MSN website and heard it on my local mainstream AM radio station this morning.

[flowerseverywhere]

Kinda not what I said.

We did however historically somehow defeat a society that was made up of “religious zealots who would fight to the death”, and then somehow proceed to win the peace as well.

I see your point. One different thing between now and then are the significant culture shifts. Japan attacked The US and caused loss of life. The Middle East wars are a world away to most people. Of course these days, terrorism, even cyber terrorism can do a great deal of harm to US citizens. It will be interesting to see what History will tell us about the events of the last 20 or so years.

[Rogar]

I spent some more time checking the history of Afghanistan and I apologize for any comments that I have posted. It is way more complex that I had any idea going back centuries. They are a unique people. I hope that they find a peaceful way forward for their population, its health and wellbeing.

I will now revert back to my choice of non=participation in the Simple Policy forum (I do read the threads) as I simply don't understand enough about the issues to comment wisely.

Apologies if it was something I said or the way I said it. I'm not always right and the news isn't always right, but I sometimes enjoy sharing ideas on the policy forum to get impressions from people from different areas and backgrounds. I can sometimes learn something.

[Teacher Terry]

Tradd, I can’t believe a high school thought it was a good idea to go there and that individual parents allowed it. Ugh!

[Jane v2.0]

In happier news, an entire boarding school of Afghan girls and administrators made it safely to an interim location in Rwanda. Also, five of the "robot girls" have relocated to Mexico. They badly need something like an underground railroad there.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Good some are getting out.