My Yellow Jackets

[catherine]

So, this is a follow-up to my post on the "What Did You Succeed In Learning Today"

http://www.simplelivingforum.net/showthread.php?19316-What-Did-You-Succeed-in-Learning-Today&highlight=stump

The yellow jackets were slightly more aggressive as the summer went on and my son and daughter started complaining because they tended to be annoying when we were trying to eat outside. I understand that some people are freaked out by insects that sting, but they haven't bothered me at all, and I used to love watching them go in and out of their little stump-home.

But, when my neighbor, a hardy, fearless Vermont roofer, came to check out the stump and jumped back 3 feet when he realized they were not bees, but yellow jackets, DH was hell-bent on ridding the yard of the wasps.

So he and my son exterminated them with Raid, and then they took the stump and burned it in the fire pit.

I feel that same irrational sense of loss that I used to when we would throw out our live Christmas trees when I was young. I know the yellow jackets are pests, and I know they were a little annoying.

But I have observed that we had not ONE fly in our house this year. In previous years, a door would be left open and a fly would gain entrance. We always had a fly swatter and this year we didn't need one. Is it because the yellow jackets were guarding the door?

This is a very random post, and probably doesn't deserve a thread of its own, but I feel a bit sad when I walk down my path to the house and the Bee Stump is no longer there.

My son tells me that I'm just being a crazy, woo-woo crunchy-granola hippie mom, but I'm really just kind of feeling bad about the yellow jackets. Am I unreasonable? Have you ever had an irrational sense of loss?

[Tybee]

You are not at all unreasonable. And just so you know, when I read your thread title, I thought it was a fashion thread, and I imagined you with these multiple cheery Carnaby Street yellow jackets, circa 1968, and thought, how cool, how Catherine!

[ApatheticNoMore]

Bees had made a makeshift hive in my mom's yard. And this is bees, not hornets, not yellow jackets. The neighbors got to complaining. The bees had to go. I begged her, keep the bees, please, please don't get rid of the bees. The bees were gotten rid of (supposedly not killed). I miss them. Always flying in an out of the nest on the bee highway (er they'd follow a path in and out of the nest, a line, a "bee highway").

[Yppej]

Yes, I have had an irrational sense of loss. When I was pregnant I was watching an episode of "Punky Brewster" and a girl's mother died and I completely broke down thinking about what if I die and my baby is motherless. Talk about pregnancy hormones! My DH at the time said, "I can't believe you're crying about 'Punky Brewster'".

[razz]

https://gardeningwow.com/is-a-yellow-jacket-beneficial-6-quick-faqs/ Yellow jackets are beneficial..

I relate to this feeling of sorrow for killing things as well. I dislike spraying chemicals on grass as well. It comes down to our personal values, I think. If at all possible, I prefer to share space in harmony.
That said, crab grass just gets yanked out with vigour. Am I a hypocrite?

[iris lilies]

I don’t know. After your first post about these stinging insects I looked them up and I guess they are pretty nasty. I don’t have experience with them. I like many kind of bees, , love bumblebees, love carpenter bees. But these guys – I don’t know. I guess if you don’t have little kids around and animals around that will chase them and be hurt by them it might be OK to Harbor them but I’m not sure I would. It’s just I don’t like them right by a door.

We do put up with a small wasp nest at the community garden these creatures have built in our message board. We just know that whenever we change out a message which is about twice a year, we have to be very careful if they’re there.

[GeorgeParker]

Honey bees sting once and die, so they really want to avoid stinging you unless you're threatening their nest. But yellow jackets and similar nasties don't die when they sting, so when they get mad they attack and keep stinging you over and over. Don't feel bad about killing them if they make a nest close to your house. Just keep reminding yourself that you are the alpha predator in your environment and it is your genetic duty to create a safe habitat for your family while doing as little harm as possible to other species.

[Tybee]

Honey bees sting once and die, so they really want to avoid stinging you unless you're threatening their nest. But yellow jackets and similar nasties don't die when they sting, so when they get mad they attack and keep stinging you over and over. Don't feel bad about killing them if they make a nest close to your house. Just keep reminding yourself that you are the alpha predator in your environment and it is your genetic duty to create a safe habitat for your family while doing as little harm as possible to other species.

See, I don't see myself as an alpha predator. The plants and animals and I are all in this together, and we all try to work around each other as much as possible. I think it is very possible to be a non-predator but rather co-creator with the plants and animals.

[razz]

See, I don't see myself as an alpha predator. The plants and animals and I are all in this together, and we all try to work around each other as much as possible. I think it is very possible to be a non-predator but rather co-creator with the plants and animals.

Same viewpoint from me.

[pinkytoe]

What I thought were native ground bees turned out to be wasps that had built their nests inside one of my wooden planting beds. I have lived peacefully with them all summer though I keep my distance. In exchange, I have noted a very observable absence of pesky garden insects. Yesterday, I watched one of them roll a pupae (?) of some insect larger than himself across the ground. It always amazes me how creatures have such a sense of purpose in their short existence.

[JaneV2.0]

I don't kill anything if I can help it. I might draw the line at murder hornets. :0!

[Tybee]

I don't kill anything if I can help it. I might draw the line at murder hornets. :0!

I steer clear of alligators. Apparently when I was two, I was almost eaten by an alligator in the Okeefenokee Swamp while dangling a sandwich off of a boat.

But I would not try to kill the alligator, rather not buy a house on a lagoon in South Carolina or Florida, for example.

[nswef]

I kill yellow jackets...husband is highly allergic and they need to not be around the house. We are now experimenting with removing ants with a mix of 1 part borax, 3 parts sugar and water to make a slurry that I put on a piece of waxed paper. They eat it and supposedly take it back to the nest so they all die. Still killing, but not the poison I use for the yellow jackets. We also kill groundhogs. I like to think I can live with all things, but I can't. On the other hand I have several pollinator flower beds and the hummingbird feeder.

[GeorgeParker]

See, I don't see myself as an alpha predator. The plants and animals and I are all in this together, and we all try to work around each other as much as possible. I think it is very possible to be a non-predator but rather co-creator with the plants and animals.Is that what you say to the flies, cockroaches, and ants that get in your house as you mercilessly stalk and swat them? Is that what you tell the cows, pigs, fish, or whatever that you eat, and which you directly or indirectly caused to be born just so you could kill and eat them?

I nurture all life and I never kill or destroy unless I need to, but I freely acknowledge my position in the ecosystem and do what needs to be done to keep my part of it in balance. That's all part of the circle of life. To not acknowledge it but still kill a mouse would be hypocrisy.

[KayLR]

You are not at all unreasonable. And just so you know, when I read your thread title, I thought it was a fashion thread, and I imagined you with these multiple cheery Carnaby Street yellow jackets, circa 1968, and thought, how cool, how Catherine!

Ha, I thought it was some riff on My Morning Jacket.

Catherine, sorry about your stump. I get you.

[Teacher Terry]

Since my folks had a summer resort in northern Wisconsin I have a lot of experience with bees, wasps and hornets. At the beginning of the tourist season my dad would hire someone to burn out the wasps and hornets. Their sting is much more painful and you can die if sensitive or stung many times. The nearest hospital was a hour away. Personally I try not to kill anything but I eat meat so who am I to judge others.

[rosarugosa]

I never had any issues with yellow jackets. I used to feed them apple slices out of my hands when I was a little girl, and I never got stung.

[Yppej]

I do not eat meat. However, if an animal comes out of its habitat into my habitat AKA home uninvited I will remove it or kill it. I do not attempt to coexist in that case. This is the season of fruit flies and if I manage to catch one I smash it.

But I have never been able to set bombs, traps, etc for wildlife eating my garden. Instead this will be my last year trying to grow vegetables. I'm giving up.

I hate squirrels - rats with tails - but always swerve to avoid them when they dart in front of my car. I guess I have some kind instincts.

[Teacher Terry]

I also couldn’t set traps for wildlife when we had a garden. Outside is their home and eating shouldn’t be punished by death.

[LDAHL]

Honey bees sting once and die, so they really want to avoid stinging you unless you're threatening their nest. But yellow jackets and similar nasties don't die when they sting, so when they get mad they attack and keep stinging you over and over. Don't feel bad about killing them if they make a nest close to your house. Just keep reminding yourself that you are the alpha predator in your environment and it is your genetic duty to create a safe habitat for your family while doing as little harm as possible to other species.

I think you’re right. Nature is a competition for mortal stakes, and thinking otherwise just indulges a pleasant fantasy that you can opt out.

[iris lilies]

I also couldn’t set traps for wildlife when we had a garden. Outside is their home and eating shouldn’t be punished by death.
There’s so many things I can say to his lofty thought, but I guess in the end I will just say that you should maybe keep in mind that the reason why you have food in your house because someone is keeping the critters from eating it up.


That it isn’t you who is doing the dirty work allows you to indulge in the “pleasant fantasy that you can opt out” as Ldahl says.

[Teacher Terry]

I agree IL because I eat meat. I don’t like most veggies so can’t be a vegetarian. When I had a garden with my kids the animals won and my son and his wife also worked the garden and enjoyed the results. They also had no appetite for killing. We finally after many years just quit planting.

[catherine]

There’s so many things I can say to his lofty thought, but I guess in the end I will just say that you should maybe keep in mind that the reason why you have food in your house because someone is keeping the critters from eating it up.That it isn’t you who is doing the dirty work allows you to indulge in the “pleasant fantasy that you can opt out” as Ldahl says.

I was a vegetarian for 10 years, for ethical reasons. I had read The Omnivore's Dilemma on a trip to do market research with diabetic patients, and I had a life-changing experience. I have read books by omnivores and vegetarians and have done a lot of thinking about this. My Permacutlure Design course also directed some of my thinking about this. This is what I believe:


You can't go through life without killing.
All life is interconnected
We have a moral obligation to minimize suffering
If we must take life for sustenance, it is better to be in relational position with our prey than relegate our prey to being a mere commodity
Saying grace is not a religious practice as much as a practice of gratitude for the sacred gift of one animal's life for that of another's.

[GeorgeParker]

I was a vegetarian for 10 years, for ethical reasons....This is what I believe:


You can't go through life without killing.
All life is interconnected
We have a moral obligation to minimize suffering
If we must take life for sustenance, it is better to be in relational position with our prey than relegate our prey to being a mere commodity
Saying grace is not a religious practice as much as a practice of gratitude for the sacred gift of one animal's life for that of another's.


I agree with all of that. But I'm not a vegetarian, I just limit my meat consumption, try to stay away from beef (environmentally destructive), and refuse to eat veal (cruelty).

Alan Watts said "I'm a vegetarian because cows scream louder than carrots." And that's good enough for me. I do the best I can, and I do what I need to do, even if thinking about what I'm doing either directly or indirectly is sometimes unpleasant.

[catherine]

I agree with all of that. But I'm not a vegetarian, I just limit my meat consumption, try to stay away from beef (environmentally destructive), and refuse to eat veal (cruelty).

Alan Watts said "I'm a vegetarian because cows scream louder than carrots." And that's good enough for me. I do the best I can, and I do what I need to do, even if thinking about what I'm doing either directly or indirectly is sometimes unpleasant.

I LOVE that Alan Watts quote. Thank you. I'm going to use it when people say, "oh... but plants have feelings too!"

I read Peter Singer and I've seen him speak, and I agree with a lot of his ideas.

That being said, I am no longer a vegetarian.The main reason is, convenience. DH is a committed omnivore (Anglo, doesn't think much of vegetables). So I have largely given up on the difficulty of appeasing two competing appetites.

DH and I were offered deep-fried goose from my neighbor last night, who had shot that goose in the afternoon. DH was horrified--would not eat it. I ate it. This is what I mean by a "relational position"--and I challenged DH: You abhor eating a goose your neighbor shot, but you are are fine with a cow being housed in inhumane conditions in a CAFO, and then being served up to you in a sanitized plastic covering for your fat-sensitive palate."

Another thing I've learned as a vegetarian:

Food is a VERY emotional topic. I stay away from it at this point. I just (try to) do what I think is right.

[GeorgeParker]

While we're on this off-topic topic, we should pay homage to Michael Pollan's Food Rules:

1) Eat Food. Real food, not manufactured food-like substances made in a factory.
2) Mostly Plants.
3) Not too much.

Full rules with partial commentary: https://www.grahammann.net/book-notes/food-rules-an-eaters-manual-michael-pollan

[catherine]

Yup... I'm a Michael Pollan fan, as you might have guessed. Stood in line to get him to autograph "In Defense of Food". Good advice.


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[ApatheticNoMore]

I don't see why one needs to kill things for no reason. If a fly is in the house I have found a largely effective way to get rid of it (in the day) is turn out all light in the house so it's dark and open the door wide open. It will go toward the light. I also don't own a fly swatter, so if this is being on a superior moral plane or just making do, well it may be as much the latter as the former. :laff:

But other critters like roaches, I will take measures (pesticides). Ants are pretty harmless here, they only come in when outside conditions are not to their liking, too hot, too cold, and especially too wet, they don't like rain. So they have always been a temporary problem, wait awhile and they'll leave.

The thing about meat is it's very hard to meet nutritional needs as a vegan, even a bit of a challenge as a vegetarian. I'm not saying anyone has to eat meat. But it's too much of a challenge for me not too.

[catherine]

I don't see why one needs to kill things for no reason. If a fly is in the house I have found a largely effective way to get rid of it (in the day) is turn out all light in the house so it's dark and open the door wide open. It will go toward the light. I also don't own a fly swatter, so if this is being on a superior moral plane or just making do, well it may be as much the latter as the former. :laff:

But other critters like roaches, I will take measures (pesticides). Ants are pretty harmless here, they only come in when outside conditions are not to their liking, too hot, too cold, and especially too wet, they don't like rain. So they have always been a temporary problem, wait awhile and they'll leave.

The thing about meat is it's very hard to meet nutritional needs as a vegan, even a bit of a challenge as a vegetarian. I'm not saying anyone has to eat meat. But it's too much of a challenge for me not too.

Do you have any grass-fed beef farms near you? Do you know your local farmers? I know that sounds trite, but if you can mitigate reliance on CAFO's, all the better. DH recently commented on how the Asians use SO much less meat in their meals. We make meat 75% of our plate, and theirs is so much less. Meat doesn't have to be the showpiece of the meal, although most of us in the US feel that way. I eat little meat, but my blood labs were great on my last visit to the doctor. My HDL is very high.

[Yppej]

I don't see why one needs to kill things for no reason. If a fly is in the house I have found a largely effective way to get rid of it (in the day) is turn out all light in the house so it's dark and open the door wide open. It will go toward the light. I also don't own a fly swatter, so if this is being on a superior moral plane or just making do, well it may be as much the latter as the former. :laff:

But other critters like roaches, I will take measures (pesticides). Ants are pretty harmless here, they only come in when outside conditions are not to their liking, too hot, too cold, and especially too wet, they don't like rain. So they have always been a temporary problem, wait awhile and they'll leave.

The thing about meat is it's very hard to meet nutritional needs as a vegan, even a bit of a challenge as a vegetarian. I'm not saying anyone has to eat meat. But it's too much of a challenge for me not too.

How do you get rid of fruit flies? I take the trash out frequently but they have migrated to the bathroom and hang out there.

[GeorgeParker]

My favorite paraphrase of a Pollan Food Rule is:

"If a ten year old can't pronounce everything on the ingredient label and explain what it is, you probably shouldn't eat it." :D

[GeorgeParker]

I deleted this post because I put it in the wrong thread. (oops)

[razz]

Back to the yellow jacket thought - I had eight guests for a potluck last evening and decided to try to make fresh lemonade for the first time because I had the lemons. My recipe called for 1 cup each of freshly squeezed lemon juice and sugar in 2 quarts of water served over ice. We all enjoyed it and found it a refreshing drink but the wasps thought it was good as well. So we finished out drinks fairly quickly and the wasps moved on to find better opportunities.
Next time I will reduce the sugar to 3/4 cup, I think.

[catherine]

Back to the yellow jacket thought - I had eight guests for a potluck last evening and decided to try to make fresh lemonade for the first time because I had the lemons. My recipe called for 1 cup each of freshly squeezed lemon juice and sugar in 2 quarts of water served over ice. We all enjoyed it and found it a refreshing drink but the wasps thought it was good as well. So we finished out drinks fairly quickly and the wasps moved on to find better opportunities.
Next time I will reduce the sugar to 3/4 cup, I think.

Or give out coasters to cover the glasses, or instruct guests to use their cell phones to cover the glasses.. I'm. not saying this is the best solution as a host, but that's what I got used to doing this summer. I'm not sure 1/4 cup of sugar is going to make a difference, as far as the wasps are concerned!

[happystuff]

I think catherine is right about the wasps not being concerned about 1/4 cup sugar - lol. However, my recipe was always similar to yours, razz - two quarts water, 1 cup lemon juice and, actually, just a little under 3/4 cup sugar. I'm not one for overly-sweet drinks.

[GeorgeParker]

Or give out coasters to cover the glasses, or instruct guests to use their cell phones to cover the glasses.. I'm. not saying this is the best solution as a host, but that's what I got used to doing this summer. I'm not sure 1/4 cup of sugar is going to make a difference, as far as the wasps are concerned!Or give everybody a sippy cup so the wee beasties will have a smaller target.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Fruit flies have come and gone but only stayed briefly and I haven't had them for awhile. Their favorite thing IME is bananas, haven't had many of those around for awhile. Some of it is climate, there are obviously more pests in a humid than a dry climate. What else have I even ever dealt with. Silverfish, I leave them alone. Spiders, they are almost all daddy long legs, I leave them alone, but the occasional brown widow is more alarming. Mosquitos I'll definitely swat at, we have west nile virus. Moths I'll kill, but mostly I've just taken to keeping grains and beans in the freezer and so there haven't been any, that's where food moths come from. I have cedar wood in drawers where I keep towels/sheets/clothes for clothing moths, but who knows if it works, that might be mostly wool that they go for, and well I have only a couple of wool items so no wonder it hasn't been much of a problem.

I don't think I eat a ton of meat really, but then I don't know what is considered typical.

[GeorgeParker]

Fruit flies have come and gone but only stayed briefly and I haven't had them for awhile. Their favorite thing IME is bananasYep. Times flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana.