View Full Version : Water crisis
flowerseverywhere
9-5-21, 5:35am
After years of scientists warning us, water is inching it’s way into the headlines. The Colorado river comes to mind first. Water rights, pollution, climate change, evaporation, deserts being turned into farmland or development and general waste are all parts of the problem.
Between Covid, the Afghan war, hurricanes and wildfires this has taken a back seat.
I don’t see much chance for politicians to actually help the people they represent. They are too busy bashing each other, creating divisions and catering to donors while raking in the cash. So it is going to be up to citizens to elevate the issue.
As we approach this crisis what do you see happening and what can we do to help?
iris lilies
9-5-21, 7:09am
What can politicians do, anyway?
I don’t know the answer, but building more human structures in desert-land doesn't seem like a good idea. This is, of course, reflecting my personal distaste for living in a place that doesnt seem supportive of human life. They are very artificial, the cities in the sand.
We treat water with disrespect. Water conservation is one of my hot buttons but few share my concerns, it seems. Like so many other issues, it will take a change in thought before any change in physical efforts and effects. Politicians will respond when the influencers on these issues raise the profile and interest of the general public.
Who are the credible influencers?
There has to be a different way of flushing human waste than using our drinking water supplies.
There has to be a different model than the perfect green urban lawn irrigated at least twice a week with our drinking water.
Are daily showers essential?
Do we need to launder every garment every time it is worn? How many outfits does one need to wear each day and then throw in the wash?
Farming has changed dramatically with better practices that preserve the soil, reduce erosion and maintain the stability of soil structure as well as steps like drip irrigation.
We treat water with disrespect. Water conservation is one of my hot buttons but few share my concerns, it seems. Like so many other issues, it will take a change in thought before any change in physical efforts and effects. Politicians will respond when the influencers on these issues raise the profile and interest of the general public.
Who are the credible influencers?
There has to be a different way of flushing human waste than using our drinking water supplies.
There has to be a different model than the perfect green urban lawn irrigated at least twice a week with our drinking water.
Are daily showers essential?
Do we need to launder every garment every time it is worn? How many outfits does one need to wear each day and then throw in the wash?
Farming has changed dramatically with better practices that preserve the soil, reduce erosion and maintain the stability of soil structure as well as steps like drip irrigation.
I agree completely.
I don't think individuals will do anything until it hits them personally, when they have to pick and choose because fresh water has become a limited resource.
iris lilies
9-5-21, 9:58am
The water situation worries me less than this country’s deficit spending, BUT—it worries me. I cannot think about either one of them for any length of time, too scary.
The water situation worries me less than this country’s deficit spending, BUT—it worries me. I cannot think about either one of them for any length of time, too scary.
I've always loved this quote:
3941
early morning
9-5-21, 10:59am
I like that quote, catherine. I worry about lots of things, but not deficit spending - that's honestly too big of a chunk for me to worry about. Water, I worry. I do not understand the idea of "water rights" in that you can own land and not be able to drill for water because someone else owns the "rights" to it. Mineral rights, water rights, timber rights - the idea that those can be bought and sold without the land itself changing hands, and then not go with the land when it IS sold - that seem so very wrong to me. I do understand not owning or being able to dam or divert rivers or streams, as the water in those, above ground, is not stationary and affects many people. I know that the underground aquafers are likewise shared and I get that access could need to be restricted in certain instances, but individual property owners should not have the rights to that water sold out from under them, either literally or figuratively. By the same token, those who choose to live in a desert should not be able to take water to the extent that it impedes or actually depletes the entire water source. However, it's all about the money, who has it and who controls it. So I don't see any changes on the horizon.
GeorgeParker
9-5-21, 11:28am
I've always loved this quote:
3941I hate it when people (not you, the person who made that image) claim some obviously modern saying is a "Native American proverb" To be a proverb a saying has to be old and widely used. IOW it has to be "traditional wisdom", whereas this quote clearly originated after the Europeans invaded North America and began destroying the environment in order to make money -- a thing that you can't eat, can't wear to keep warm, and can't live in to stay dry during a storm.
This is the real origin of that quote: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/page/3/
And this is probably the oldest published version of that idea in America:
In 1894 the importance of conserving natural resources was recognized and expressed in a report by the State Fish and Game Commissioner of North Dakota. The report cautioned that short-term thinking and narrow monetary motivations might lead to the destruction of the “last tree” and the “last fish”. The following passage shows thematic similarities to the quotation under investigation:
"Present needs and present gains was the rule of action—which seems to be a sort of transmitted quality which we in our now enlightened time have not wholly outgrown, for even now a few men can be found who seem willing to destroy the last tree, the last fish and the last game bird and animal, and leave nothing for posterity, if thereby some money can be made."
Native Americans did express that same idea in interviews and speeches in the 1970s, but it's not traditional wisdom. And the reason I'm ranting about this is the same reason Buffy Sainte Marie wrote "Now That The Buffalo's Gone".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfIKxRjjl24
iris lilies
9-5-21, 11:34am
I've always loved this quote:
3941
It is hard to,know which catastrophe will take place in my lifetime which is only a few years, but my supply of water will be ok for those few years. The financial collapse of the u.s.while unlikely, could happen sooner. Money will stave off many unpleasantries climate may throw my way.
It is hard to,know which catastrophe will take place in my lifetime which is only a few years, but my supply of water will be ok for those few years. The financial collapse of the u.s.while unlikely, could happen sooner. Money will stave off many unpleasantries climate may throw my way.
We only need to look to Afghanistan where money, food and water are in short supply. The lack of which commodity will kill the most in this tragic situation?
The lawn paradigm persists even in new subdivisions and surely watering all that turf from sea to sea takes a chunk of water. Most of the houses on my street have private wells with free and total access even though there are lawn watering restrictions (a joke however since it is not enforced) for those of us on city water. And they certainly take advantage of that by constantly watering their edge to edge bluegrass lawns.
Planting more trees has nearly always worked, hasn't it?
We have a healthy water cycle here, and though we've had a bone-dry summer, I don't worry much about running out. That said, I don't do anything particularly wasteful, either.
iris lilies
9-5-21, 12:10pm
We only need to look to Afghanistan where money, food and water are in short supply. The lack of which commodity will kill the most in this tragic situation?
Those with money will be able to buy food and water.
I know that isn’t your question or perspective, but it is a fact. Certainly if one is concerned with the global aspect of these issues, a focus on the population percentage that is harmed, water is and always has been a major issue. Always. Sometimes too much of it, but usually lack of it. There have been hundreds of droughts over my lifetime that cause famines. It is a form of population control.
That it isn’t reality here in our comfortable North America.
I hate it when people (not you, the person who made that image) claim some obviously modern saying is a "Native American proverb" To be a proverb a saying has to be old and widely used. IOW it has to be "traditional wisdom", whereas this quote clearly originated after the Europeans invaded North America and began destroying the environment in order to make money -- a thing that you can't eat, can't wear to keep warm, and can't live in to stay dry during a storm.
This is the real origin of that quote: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2011/page/3/
And this is probably the oldest published version of that idea in America:
In 1894 the importance of conserving natural resources was recognized and expressed in a report by the State Fish and Game Commissioner of North Dakota. The report cautioned that short-term thinking and narrow monetary motivations might lead to the destruction of the “last tree” and the “last fish”. The following passage shows thematic similarities to the quotation under investigation:
"Present needs and present gains was the rule of action—which seems to be a sort of transmitted quality which we in our now enlightened time have not wholly outgrown, for even now a few men can be found who seem willing to destroy the last tree, the last fish and the last game bird and animal, and leave nothing for posterity, if thereby some money can be made."
Thanks for the education on that.. very interesting. Also, the reference to the Abenaki was interesting to me; as a resident of northern Vermont, I'm living in Abenaki territory.
GeorgeParker
9-5-21, 12:20pm
Thanks for the education on that.. very interesting.https://quoteinvestigator.com/ is a great website for clarifying who said what, or for just poking around looking for interesting bits of information.
Teacher Terry
9-5-21, 2:21pm
Since moving to the West coast I have definitely changed my wasteful ways concerned water. The new house buyers loved our high quality Astro turf. I take short showers, don’t shower every day in winter, wear my clothes again if feasible.
One of the reasons I moved here is that on an island you can see all the infrastructure directly, and act as needed. This island is 56 square miles, and geologically complicated. Ten years or so ago, I wrote up something here about where my neighborhood's water comes from:
http://www.simplelivingforum.net/showthread.php?1349-Where-does-*your*-water-come-from
I have practically endless amounts of clean, relatively inexpensive water available to me, year-round. And as climate change accelerates, I suspect the amount of water, here, will increase. So I really don't have to worry about "wasteful" water use, or adopt a hairshirt-environmentalism approach to life.
Some areas of the island rely on well water, from aquifers that have poor recharge rates and are under threat of salt water intrusion - those folks have to monitor well levels and quality, and conserve, especially during our summer season when demand is high and recharge is low. I supervised the creation of an island-wide well-monitoring/quality testing network so we could avoid Total Disaster - saltwater intrusion into the aquifer lens sitting under parts of the island would be Game Over.
Other areas rely on surface water - lakes and reservoirs - and have sufficient supply year-round, or most-of-the-year - depending on their water levels, conservation programs and pricing have to happen in the summer season.
Some folks have to truck in water to their homes - I presume they have some interest in conservation or cost-control.
Lately, in water-scarce parts of the island, home and neighborhood-sized desal plants have been popping up, at some considerable cost and bother.
So, even in a small area, a 56 square mile island, there isn't a one-size-fits-all set of guidelines.
I stay on top of my island home indicators, and the Lake Champlain Basin Program recently released its report:
https://www.lcbp.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/SOL2021_full-document_for-web.pdf
My neighbors tell me that they used to drink out of Lake Champlain. My next door neighbors, who have owned their home for 30+ years still have not hooked up to the town supply. They use the lake water for "greywater" purposes and purchase bottled water for drinking. But they remember when everyone drank out of Lake Champlain.
In our area, agricultural practices are the main culprit of unhealthy water. Burlington urban wastewater is also problematic. Yet, my neighbors, all good people who are entrenched in history, culture and habit, don't see the need for riparian buffers.
As you say, bae, there is no one-size-fits-all. I keep my mouth shut because these neighbors of mine have been here for a quarter of a century or more and certainly don't want to hear from a NJ ex-pat.
But they remember when everyone drank out of Lake Champlain.
Yikes your neighbors were advenurous. Even 50+ years ago, we didn't drink lake water. There was a local spring in the camp complex that us kids would be sent to to collect water, accessed by a path in the woods. Of course, me being signficantly younger than my two older siblings, there would be horror stories of all sorts told to me including a haunted cabin we had to walk by.
Good times. :~)
Later with progress, Herbie who owned the cottage we rented, got town water and we were allowed to go to the barn and help ourselves. By then, the siblings were driving so it was just an easy ride up the road.
Yikes your neighbors were advenurous. Even 50+ years ago, we didn't drink lake water. There was a local spring in the camp complex that us kids would be sent to to collect water, accessed by a path in the woods. Of course, me being signficantly younger than my two older siblings, there would be horror stories of all sorts told to me including a haunted cabin we had to walk by.
Good times. :~)
Later with progress, Herbie who owned the cottage we rented, got town water and we were allowed to go to the barn and help ourselves. By then, the siblings were driving so it was just an easy ride up the road.
yeah, my neighbors are pretty rugged, but that's what I like about them. I just feel that in general, people should be able to drink out of natural water sources. Such an anomaly to have to consider all the industrial waste that has probably poured into our water sources and rendered it useless. Crying shame.
Out of curiosity, how many of you folks:
- have a several-day supply of water set aside for emergencies?
- have a means of purifying water on a sufficient scale for your daily needs?
Out of curiosity, how many of you folks:
- have a several-day supply of water set aside for emergencies?
- have a means of purifying water on a sufficient scale for your daily needs?
What is your advice as to quantity and specific ways to purify water?
What is your advice as to quantity and specific ways to purify water?
I think it very much depends on your circumstances and resources.
Here, I keep a quantity of bleach on hand, a Big Berkey filter, some smaller filters for hiking/camping/rescue work (Lifestraws and such), and a couple of hand-cranked filters that produce a couple quarts/minute, and a hand-cranked desal filter.
I'd start with bleach and a filter of some sort.
I think water issues here in the arid west can be different than other areas. The water board of our large metro area recommends reducing meat consumption and trying a plant based diet. It's probably is different for local pasture raised beef in some places. People tend to focus on urban landscape maintenance and tend to overlook the influence of agriculture and meat production one's water footprint, but it is a little more complicated.
I supervised the creation of an island-wide well-monitoring/quality testing network so we could avoid Total Disaster.
This post is a good example of what I have noted about bae and his delusions of grandeur. It's not that he worked on this project, or worked with others - no he was the big boss in charge who supervised, and his heroics prevented Total Disaster.
This post is a good example of what I have noted about bae and his delusions of grandeur. It's not that he worked on this project, or worked with others - no he was the big boss in charge who supervised, and his heroics prevented Total Disaster.
"**** off", he explained.
Wait, I shall elaborate...
I was in charge of the village's water user's association. Elected by the membership and the Board. Our system serves ~1100 residences and businesses within the urban growth area designated by the state and the county. We maintain a wide network of wells and groundwater sources, including a large reservoir up on one of the mountains here. We operate several water treatment and filtering plants. We consistently won awards for efficiency, safety, and water taste.
During my dozen year tenure on the board, as president of the board, I launched initiatives to create the well monitoring network first within our designated area, then island-wide, then county-wide. I participated in the design of the project, the data analysis, securing the funding, overseeing the construction, and so on. I also received training and certification in heavy equipment operation and water system operation, and participated hands-on when appropriate.
I did a lot of other fun and useful things for the water system too - our remote monitoring/operation system for the mountain plants, so I and the guys don't have to hike up there in a storm to fix things, backup power systems, post-9/11 security systems, a hydropower generation system using our pressure reduction equipment to generate power as the water makes its way down the mountain, the design of post-earthquake recovery plans (including land purchase, site design, and plant design for a desal plant to be delivered by barge post-quake), redesign of our water tariff system to balance residential/commercial/ag use, etc. etc.
So, if you want to talk about water, I can do it all day.
It is a shame that the expertise and experience of others seem to trigger you, so I suspect we won't be having that conversation.
What is your advice as to quantity and specific ways to purify water?
I have commercial Port Aqua iodine tablets from my camping gear. They have a shelf life and the water tastes bad without a neutralizer, but I trust them for microbiological contaminants. I suspect chorine does a similar job as long as the correct amount is added and there is not a lot of other organic material. I've also used small hand pump filters. They will clog up quickly if there is much sediment. Without looking it up, I suspect neither are very effective against certain pollutants like lead or benzene. For home use I use Brita Longlast filters to eliminate any heavy metals, choline and other chemical contaminants. I filter all of my home drinking and most of my cooking water with a Brita filter. Possibly over kill, but it's cheaper than bottled water, which isn't always that pure, and it makes coffee and other drinking water taste better.
A couple of specifics to look up if so inclined. I think in a big disaster where I had to resort to questionable sources, I'd both disinfect and then filter, although that might not always be perfect.
Bae does way way more for his community than you do Jeppy. That's just a fact. No illusions/delusions are involved. As i understand much if not all is volunteer/unpaid.
You likely can't do a lot of what he does either for strength (like the fire fighting training) or higher math skills, but there are still significant things you could do to improve your community. It seems to really get under your skin that the more people contribute, the more opportunities they are presented with. But this is available to you as well.
Complaining, criticizing and tearing people down is easy. Providing value and lasting improvement is hard. You could make the same choices.
As far as water, we have a deep well, and lose power for more than a few hours maybe once or twice a year. I usually have a couple of days of drinking water on hand and will add a few gallons for the winter. I have purifier tablets and a couple of Lifestraws but never had to use them. The big issue with power outages is toilet flushing so we've taken to filling up a few buckets when storms are predicted.
I was a little concerned about the aquifer when the neighbor across the street was watering the lawn for hours at a time many days a week, but they sold and moved.
This post is a good example of what I have noted about bae and his delusions of grandeur. It's not that he worked on this project, or worked with others - no he was the big boss in charge who supervised, and his heroics prevented Total Disaster.
This post was totally uncalled for and inappropriate for this forum. Really sad to see this.
This post is a good example of what I have noted about bae and his delusions of grandeur. It's not that he worked on this project, or worked with others - no he was the big boss in charge who supervised, and his heroics prevented Total Disaster.
Sweetie, When was the last time you where here in the PNW ? How do you know what bae has or hasn't done?
The Equine Fun Fact Of The Day: Mules are a cross of donkey and horse The father is donkey and the mother is a horse. A hinny is when the dad is a horse and the mother is a donkey. They are a hybrid and are 99.9% sterile.
Bonus Fact Of The Day: Freddie Mercury would have been 75 today
Sweetie, When was the last time you where here in the PNW ? How do you know what bae has or hasn't done?
The Equine Fun Fact Of The Day: Mules are a cross of donkey and horse The father is donkey and the mother is a horse. A hinny is when the dad is a horse and the mother is a donkey. They are a hybrid and are 99.9% sterile.
Bonus Fact Of The Day: Freddie Mercury would have been 75 today
Just the other day I discussed how you confused "where" and "were". Today you make the exact same error, yet you question my knowledge.
Just the other day I discussed how you confused "where" and "were". Today you make the exact same error, yet you question my knowledge.
https://scontent-ort2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/241051605_10220927059590654_7030588198790915187_n. jpg?_nc_cat=111&ccb=1-5&_nc_sid=825194&_nc_ohc=gzCL5VQvagEAX8z7_Yu&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-1.xx&oh=5b8fc3831482651bcc566dc504addba1&oe=615AE124
We have a stream at the back of our property. I always figured I could pull water from that, boil the heck out of it and then run it through my Brita filter. Good? Not good?
Just the other day I discussed how you confused "where" and "were". Today you make the exact same error, yet you question my knowledge.
A cautionary tale for you:
One day, a head of lettuce went into a bar and ordered himself a beer.
Boom!!! He grew a neck and torso.
He was so pleased about this, he ordered another beer and Boom!!! Two legs and two arms appeared
He thought he would celebrate his new life by having another beer
Boom!!!!! He blew up.
Moral of the story : Stop while you are a head
The Equine Fun Fact Of The Day : On the front cover of the July1976 issue of The Appaloosa News, John Denver was featured with an Appaloosa stallion that was featured on the album cover Windsong.
We have a stream at the back of our property. I always figured I could pull water from that, boil the heck out of it and then run it through my Brita filter. Good? Not good?
Theoretically, I could walk down the hill a block or so to Lake Washington. I figure that would provide enough water for awhile.
flowerseverywhere
9-6-21, 5:54am
I’ve believed for a long time water will be the biggest crisis yet. If people don’t have good water they will move instead of die. Inadequate sewage systems, especially when these drenching storms hit. Fracking. Multiple onslaughts of chemicals dumped into water. Climate change.
Our obsessions with perfect lawns, and often HOA’s rules not allowing stone etc. all contribute.
IL asked what governments can do?
watering restrictions. Not allow new golf courses in deserts. Fix aging pipes. Upgrade sewerage treatment plants.
As much as people love to dump on Florida, they have a law that you cannot require people to have grass. Native plants and ground covers are allowed. Once established they survive without additional water. Although slow to catch on in residential areas, it is a step in the right direction. Also I have two water systems. A non potable for irrigation if needed and potable for household needs.
Also replacement of toilets and shower heads with lower use ones for example.
another very complex system that affects all of us locally, nationally and globally.
GeorgeParker
9-6-21, 2:10pm
Also replacement of toilets and shower heads with lower use ones for example.Requiring composting toilets in new homes instead of flush toilets would be a better solution than water-conserving ones because composting toilets keep human waste completely out of the sanitary sewer system. They reduce both water use and the volume of solid waste sewerage treatment plants need to process.
And in my experience, handheld showerheads with a lever to quickly set the volume and pattern of water flow you want are far far better than low flow showerheads that just replace your regular showerhead. I've used a nice handheld for years and I'd never go back to a standard showerhead. I love being able to spray the water just where I want it, get a hard concentrated flow or a soft widespread flow, and leave the head in it's bracket so I can use it like a regular shower when I want to. Typically I use all of those modes while taking a shower to wash/rinse different parts of my body.
Inadequate sewage systems, especially when these drenching storms hit. Upgrade sewerage treatment plants.Modern cities build their stormwater drainage system totally separate from the sanitary sewer system, and all new neighborhoods ought to be built that way even in old cities to keep stormwater out of the sewerage treatment plant.
Cities also now require new construction to include low areas that act as stormwater catch areas and help prevent the stormwater drainage pipes being overwhelmed. The one at our local library is a good example. It would hold a lot of storm water and let it flow into the stormwater system slowly through it's small drain. And kids love to walk down into the center and back out on the spiral wall.
3952
My only experience with composting toilets are Tiny House Nation tv show and things I've read online. I have heard of "incinerating composting toilets" but have not investigated.
I like to think I would do okay with a composting toilet - allowing for adequate/appropriate disposal issues. (yes, I know there are ways, but I haven't gone that far... yet. LOL)
I like to think that I am willing to make adjustments to my life for environmental purposes. I don't think I'm there yet, but I'm starting and trying. It makes the future very interesting, to say the least. LOL
I guess I'll start thinking about composting toilets in my home when they stop growing rice in California with stolen water... :-)
I have heard of "incinerating composting toilets"
My brother has an Incinolet at his camp. Each cycle burns for 90 minutes. You get more than 1 person, drinking beers and that thing is running all the time. We call it the Mouth of Satan because of its evil glow when you have to use it in the middle of the night and its still running from the last time it was used. You lift up the lid and see this flaming thing.
I guess I'll start thinking about composting toilets in my home when they stop growing rice in California with stolen water... :-)
Again, something else I am totally unaware of.
Sigh... It's so hard to step out of the "everyday" and REALLY look at the "right" and "wrong" of things, and THEN to even figure out what to personally do about it! It's so over-whelming!
I think this is when I step back, look around my own house and personal environment, and look to see what I can do. I'm way from perfect, but I'm trying and I HAVE to believe that there are others trying as well. Otherwise... surrender would seem to be the only option.
Sigh... sorry, but with the recent storms and environmental issues and talk of water and pollution, climate change, and the whole idea of "perceived luxury" and seeing all the waste and disposal/waste of perfectly good "things" from the school clean-out... all of these things really have me thinking.
I don't know... I just don't know... :(
Edited to add: Sorry - rambling.
I don't know... I just don't know... :(
It's a bit crazy-making to realize you are embedded in a society and economic system that has such momentum in directions which may not align with your personal values :-(
I guess I'll start thinking about composting toilets in my home when they stop growing rice in California with stolen water... :-)
No offense, buy why let "them" determine your actions? Why not "I'll start thinking about composting toilets in my home DESPITE them growing rice in California with stolen water."?
No offense, buy why let "them" determine your actions? Why not "I'll start thinking about composting toilets in my home DESPITE them growing rice in California with stolen water."?
Well, as I mentioned above, I have a near-infinite supply of clean safe water, and my use of it doesn't impact others.
And I have a perfectly-good septic system that I maintain myself, so I see no reason to rip out my existing toilets to participate in a feel-good activity that will accomplish nothing.
Well, as I mentioned above, I have a near-infinite supply of clean safe water, and my use of it doesn't impact others.
And I have a perfectly-good septic system that I maintain myself, so I see no reason to rip out my existing toilets to participate in a feel-good activity that will accomplish nothing.
I get it. That makes sense.
A cautionary tale for you:
One day, a head of lettuce went into a bar and ordered himself a beer.
Boom!!! He grew a neck and torso.
He was so pleased about this, he ordered another beer and Boom!!! Two legs and two arms appeared
He thought he would celebrate his new life by having another beer
Boom!!!!! He blew up.
Moral of the story : Stop while you are a head
The Equine Fun Fact Of The Day : On the front cover of the July1976 issue of The Appaloosa News, John Denver was featured with an Appaloosa stallion that was featured on the album cover Windsong.
There should not be a space before the colon.
There should be a space between July and 1976.
Changing building codes to eliminate the requirements that a certain psi be maintained in water pipes would help. Lower water pressure lowers usage and lowers your water bill too.
Changing building codes to eliminate the requirements that a certain psi be maintained in water pipes would help. Lower water pressure lowers usage and lowers your water bill too.
What is the minimum residential water pressure required by the code in your area? In most places in the USA, it is 15-20PSI, depending, which is, umm, quite low.... What does the UPC suggest?
Are there reasons for this value? If so, what are they?
Please, educate us.
GeorgeParker
9-6-21, 3:46pm
I like to think I would do okay with a composting toilet - allowing for adequate/appropriate disposal issues. (yes, I know there are ways, but I haven't gone that far... yet. LOL)
My brother has an Incinolet at his camp. Each cycle burns for 90 minutes. You get more than 1 person, drinking beers and that thing is running all the time. We call it the Mouth of Satan because of its evil glow when you have to use it in the middle of the night and its still running from the last time it was used. You lift up the lid and see this flaming thing.It sounds like people are confusing composting toilets with holding tanks and incinerator toilets.
Composting toilets do exactly what the name says. You prime them with yard or garden waste and maybe some soil bacteria, and any human waste that gets added via the toilet gets slowly composted along with everything else. There are no "disposal" issues because by the time you need to remove part of the material to make more room, the stuff close to the access door is totally rotted into safe compost. And house size composting toilets have a much bigger tank capacity than the RV sized units that are probably used in tiny homes and trailers, so the emptying intervals are much longer and the material in them has much longer to properly rot.
Here are some pros and cons in an article that is IMO biased toward the cons: https://www.ahs.com/home-matters/cost-savers/the-truth-about-compost-toilets/
It sounds like people are confusing composting toilets with holding tanks and incinerator toilets.
Composting toilets do exactly what the name says. You prime them with yard or garden waste and maybe some soil bacteria, and any human waste that gets added via the toilet gets slowly composted along with everything else. There are no "disposal" issues because by the time you need to remove part of the material to make more room, the stuff close to the access door is totally rotted into safe compost. And house size composting toilets have a much bigger tank capacity than the RV sized units that are probably used in tiny homes and trailers, so the emptying intervals are much longer and the material in them has much longer to properly rot.
Here are some pros and cons in an article that is IMO biased toward the cons: https://www.ahs.com/home-matters/cost-savers/the-truth-about-compost-toilets/
Yes, I need to re-read the Humanure document/manual I have. I guess my thoughts are about this on a society-wide scale.
What is the minimum residential water pressure required by the code in your area? In most places in the USA, it is 15-20PSI, depending, which is, umm, quite low.... What does the UPC suggest?
Are there reasons for this value? If so, what are they?
Please, educate us.
It is 75 to 80, which makes my washing machine rattle in addition to wasting water. Every time a plumber comes over it is a battle because they want to bring it up to code.
It is 75 to 80, which makes my washing machine rattle in addition to wasting water. Every time a plumber comes over it is a battle because they want to bring it up to code.
I suggest you find better plumbers. Or point them at the code.
A pressure of 80 is in the realm of "too high", and I'd ask that a PRV be installed.
I have a PRV but they keep messing with it, turning the pressure up. I have a few plumbing things to be done on my upcoming vacation so I will have to watch them. I am trying a new company.
It sounds like people are confusing composting toilets with holding tanks and incinerator toilets.
Not confused, merely mentioning an alternative. We had been talking about ways to reduce water usage, and this was an alternative to a composting toilet.
GeorgeParker
9-6-21, 6:50pm
I have a PRV but they keep messing with it, turning the pressure up. I have a few plumbing things to be done on my upcoming vacation so I will have to watch them. I am trying a new company.You have stupid plumbers!
Quoting From https://www.nationwideprivateclient.com/articles/loss-prevention-tips/water-pressure-safety-why-having-the-right-psi-matters (https://www.nationwideprivateclient.com/articles/loss-prevention-tips/water-pressure-safety-why-having-the-right-psi-matters)
"Water pressure is measured in psi, or pounds per square inch, and represents the force at which water enters your home from the water main. Normal psi for a home pipe system is between 30 and 80 psi. While you don’t want the psi to be too low, it violates code to be above 80. Instead, you should aim for a psi that’s between 60 and 70."
80psi is the maximum, not the minimum. It's also the pressure measured where the water enters your house. If you want the water pressure inside your own house to be lower, there is almost certainly no law against it.
:) Wishing a pleasant evening to all.
You have stupid plumbers!
Quoting From https://www.nationwideprivateclient.com/articles/loss-prevention-tips/water-pressure-safety-why-having-the-right-psi-matters (https://www.nationwideprivateclient.com/articles/loss-prevention-tips/water-pressure-safety-why-having-the-right-psi-matters)
"Water pressure is measured in psi, or pounds per square inch, and represents the force at which water enters your home from the water main. Normal psi for a home pipe system is between 30 and 80 psi. While you don’t want the psi to be too low, it violates code to be above 80. Instead, you should aim for a psi that’s between 60 and 70."
80psi is the maximum, not the minimum. It's also the pressure measured where the water enters your house. If you want the water pressure inside your own house to be lower, there is almost certainly no law against it.
You'd be surprised at all the things dictated by state and local governments in a big government state. Aren't you in Texas? Do you need a permit to have an oil tank in your basement for your oil furnace? In New Hampshire you don't but in Massachusetts you do. We have the strictest law in the country on septic systems and if you can't meet it you can't sell your house, and heaven forbid you have a garbage disposal if you're on septic. Trying to improve the function of that septic system with bacterial additives? Not allowed in multiple municipalities. There is a black market for these, and even more so for acid shock septic treatments. Want to replace your toilet? Only a licensed plumber can do that. Make sure you don't leave the old toilet, or old windows you replaced by the curb, or the city inspector could bust you.
And you know I can't forget earlier this year it was illegal to walk by yourself in the woods miles away from other people without wearing a mask.
GeorgeParker
9-7-21, 12:54am
It would be interesting to know what PSI your current plumbers are resetting your PRV to and what law, code, or regulation they think they are obeying. It will be equally interesting to hear what your new plumber says about that and what PSI they set the PRV to.
Not confused, merely mentioning an alternative. We had been talking about ways to reduce water usage, and this was an alternative to a composting toilet.
Herbgeek: I've wondered about the Incinolet toilets (I see ads for them in Yankee magazine). Would you give it a thumbs up or thumbs down overall? I have used composting toilets; they have them at some MA highway rest stops. They are satisfactory but there is a creepiness factor that I think just comes from my own bias in being used to modern, water-based plumbing. I'm sure there isn't much rational about "what if something comes up and gets me while I'm sitting here?," but that doesn't mean it doesn't cross my mind!
Unless they have improved them by reducing cycle time, I wouldn't recommend them. As I mentioned, the burning cycle lasts for 90 minutes. It seems a waste to use that much electricity to just burn urine. If you have a way to divert urine usage, they'd be fine but otherwise you have the heat and the fan noise going All The Damn Time.
In theory they are great though, a week's worth of usage yields a small pan of ash. Most of that ash are the liners used each time to contain the contents. You really can't wait to turn it on every 3rd usage to reduce the noise as the liners don't hold that much.
Unless they have improved them by reducing cycle time, I wouldn't recommend them. As I mentioned, the burning cycle lasts for 90 minutes. It seems a waste to use that much electricity to just burn urine. If you have a way to divert urine usage, they'd be fine but otherwise you have the heat and the fan noise going All The Damn Time.
In theory they are great though, a week's worth of usage yields a small pan of ash. Most of that ash are the liners used each time to contain the contents. You really can't wait to turn it on every 3rd usage to reduce the noise as the liners don't hold that much.
Thanks for the info. I don't know anyone else with direct experience.
Herbgeek: I've wondered about the Incinolet toilets (I see ads for them in Yankee magazine). Would you give it a thumbs up or thumbs down overall? I have used composting toilets; they have them at some MA highway rest stops. They are satisfactory but there is a creepiness factor that I think just comes from my own bias in being used to modern, water-based plumbing. I'm sure there isn't much rational about "what if something comes up and gets me while I'm sitting here?," but that doesn't mean it doesn't cross my mind!
Something can come up through a pipe from the sewer or your septic system (especially if it's a cesspool) also. But I get you and I don't like the composting toilets either.
I always wanted one of these and wanted to live off the grid, etc. and read all these ads and talked a good game and then we moved to rural New York State and the creepiness factor won out.
Remember during the last energy crisis, or maybe it was during some other crisis, the old adage: "If it's yellow, keep it mellow, if it's brown, flush it down"?
There really isn't a big reason to even flush after every "deposit"--unless it's the solid kind.
Also, Europe is much more sophisticated than we are with their plumbing: they have two flushers, one for liquids, one for solids, to enable minimum water usage for both options.
I like the idea of a composting toilet, but, like Tybee, I"m not likely at this age to pursue that option. Living in a rural community has benefits for males, however. DH and DS never come into the house to pee.
Also, Europe is much more sophisticated than we are with their plumbing: they have two flushers, one for liquids, one for solids, to enable minimum water usage for both options.
But don't they use water with bidets and we don't?
But don't they use water with bidets and we don't?
That is true, although I still don't know why we don't sell the double-flushers in the US.
rosarugosa
9-7-21, 12:59pm
Something can come up through a pipe from the sewer or your septic system (especially if it's a cesspool) also. But I get you and I don't like the composting toilets either.
Yes, I learned that rats are capable of doing this, and I wish I could un-learn that nasty little fact!
Teacher Terry
9-7-21, 1:02pm
My stepson has a toilet that’s bolted to the wall and has the double flusher.
My stepson has a toilet that’s bolted to the wall and has the double flusher.
Actually, I guess they are available in the US.
https://www.wayfair.com/home-improvement/sb1/dual-flush-toilets-c1789951-a7251~21319.html?refid=GX473305008672.~b&position=&network=g&pcrid=473305008672&device=c&targetid=aud-859806033804:dsa-1126642376293&channel=GoogleIntent&gclid=Cj0KCQjwm9yJBhDTARIsABKIcGY_AlgsyWnC0Ozt9hy4-4g6AkLE48X_fgSm-HE8CWgjiui6CY-S1xoaAvNWEALw_wcB
That is true, although I still don't know why we don't sell the double-flushers in the US.
I've seen them all over the place here in the USA. They seem to have been the default for most new construction/remodeling in my county for years now.
I should probably swap at some point, the mandated "low water use" toilets I have here that were installed in the Dark Ages work terribly, and I suspect use far more water than intended, due to the necessity for multiple flushes, plungings, and water to deal with clearing them out. Blech.
Some folks here used to smuggle in "real" toilets across the border from Canada.
iris lilies
9-7-21, 2:36pm
I've seen them all over the place here in the USA. They seem to have been the default for most new construction/remodeling in my county for years now.
I should probably swap at some point, the mandated "low water use" toilets I have here that were installed in the Dark Ages work terribly, and I suspect use far more water than intended, due to the necessity for multiple flushes, plungings, and water to deal with clearing them out. Blech.
Some folks here used to smuggle in "real" toilets across the border from Canada.
You guys need toilet inspectors. Annual visits.surprise visits to catch the toilet illegals.
You guys need toilet inspectors. Annual visits.surprise visits to catch the toilet illegals.
The code compliance officer comes by the island every 3-4 years or so.
iris lilies
9-7-21, 2:47pm
The code compliance officer comes by the island every 3-4 years or so.
Do they go inside your house, tho? Our compliance inspectors hit our neighborhood every 3 to 4 years and cite what they see on the exterior
Do they go inside your house, tho? Our compliance inspectors hit our neighborhood every 3 to 4 years and cite what they see on the exterior
No, we're lucky if they inspect commercial buildings that have multiple outstanding life-safety complaints.
The fire marshal does a better job, but has limited areas of authority/responsibility.
Yes, I learned that rats are capable of doing this, and I wish I could un-learn that nasty little fact!
Happened when we were at a hotel in India. DH put the ice bucket over the area. Found out later the rat went into the next room....
iris lilies
9-7-21, 4:48pm
Happened when we were at a hotel in India. DH put the ice bucket over the area. Found out later the rat went into the next room....
Oooooo…
….……
any more of these stories and I’m going to develop a huge fear of rats. Fortunately we seldom see them around here even though they live in the city. Decades ago I saw a rat in the middle of our sidewalk on a sunny day in the afternoon. DH said to me later no that’s not what you saw it wasn’t a rat, but yeah it was a rat. It was probably a sick and dying rat.
When the warehouse half a block away burned, people standing watching it talked about the rats running out of the building. For a couple of years after that, Stray Rescue’s building across the strret had problems with rats.
Our apartment in the city had low water double flush toilets that worked great. I’m not an engineer but I can attest that they worked much better than the early low flow toilets. I don’t recall ever needing to flush more than once. As expensive as water is here it would probably pay for us to replace our toilets in this house when we upgrade the bathrooms.
Our apartment in the city had low water double flush toilets that worked great. I’m not an engineer but I can attest that they worked much better than the early low flow toilets.
I have heard from many friends/family that the new-generation low-water-use toilets work vastly better than the first-generation ones I have. And a few years back, the water system that I ran was trying to reduce average-per-household-water-use (it's an important metric the State uses to determine your service capacity), and we rolled out a program where we would provide the toilet and installation for people who had older high-use toilets. We put in about 100 of the things, and everyone seemed happy.
Getting a plumber to drop by for a single small job is tricky here, so it was nice that we could offer someone an incentive to show up and do a larger-scale project.
That said, one of the top culprits for residential water use was leaks. Generally small nearly-unnoticeable toilet valve/flapper leaks. Apparently toilet internals age rather quickly and start wasting water. If I were concerned about water waste, I'd inspect/replace those parts on a regular basis.
We managed to get average household use in the system down about 40% with a 2 year conservation campaign, which saved our users a fortune in avoiding having to expand the system prematurely.
We also implemented smart metering with leak detection, so individual members could monitor their water use real-time, and get leak alerts. There were a lot of very small leaks in between meters and homes, or in irrigation lines.
Teacher Terry
9-7-21, 6:33pm
I replaced my toilet in my condo.
Checking for leaky toilet tanks is incredibly easy. At our city apartment apparently the building had a leak somewhere so they did this. Basically they just put blue dye in the tank and then came back later to see if there was blue dye in the bowl.
GeorgeParker
9-7-21, 10:20pm
Checking for leaky toilet tanks is incredibly easy. At our city apartment apparently the building had a leak somewhere so they did this. Basically they just put blue dye in the tank and then came back later to see if there was blue dye in the bowl.You can also check by dumping a bucket of water in the toilet. That pushes the water out of the bowl and lets you pour in just enough to cover the trap. Do it right before you go to bed, and if the water level is still the same in the morning, you're good. If the bowl has partially refilled, you've got a leak. No dye needed.
BTW: This bucket dump method is also a good way to clean stubborn guck at the water line, because it lowers the water level enough for you to spray cleaner on the stubborn area and let it sit long enough to soften the guck.
The local crisis reports should be spotlighted.
What is the best way to make it less speculative?
Fires, floods and extremely hot weather this year is a fact.
Environmental awareness not only shows growth in the media, but also takes its steps.
1. On-earth adaptive learning and local information gathering and analysis for at least short-term reaction on local ecosystems survival implementation is proposed to be spotlighted.
Transformational ecology and climate change:
https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/science.abj6777?et_rid=785235910&utm_campaign=toc_sci-mag_2021-09-02&af=R&et_cid=3906312 (https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/science.abj6777?et_rid=785235910&utm_campaign=toc_sci-mag_2021-09-02&af=R&et_cid=3906312)
2. Space, Climate Change, and International Cooperation: SWFoundation and British Embassy are hosting an experts panel role in monitoring and tackling climate change.
These actions need strong, modern technology based companies to get involved. One of the key features of success in space technology is the engagement of many countries and companies at the same time in order to have fast action due to the complexity of these projects.
It is possible to get the relevant example from Skyrora, the UK private rocket launch company.
https://www.skyrora.com/blog/tag/space-technology.
The plumber who came yesterday did not turn up the water pressure. Yay!!
GeorgeParker
9-16-21, 10:55am
The plumber who came yesterday did not turn up the water pressure. Yay!!
:cool::cool::cool::cool::cool:
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.