Local Police Incident

[Teacher Terry]

I walk my dogs around a local pond/park that has a mile walking path around it. People exercise here, feed the ducks and geese and use the picnic tables and playground across the street. There’s been a young man obvious MI only wearing pants frequently singing and dancing in a joyful way off the path in no one’s way. He never bothers anyone. Someone called the police and when I got there he was surrounded by 4 big cops. They motion me to cross the street which I do.

Their tone of voice isn’t kind and the guy is obviously not going to hold a coherent conversation. I am concerned so stop and then notice a guy across the street in his car recording. I approached him and said I was concerned and that we have a crisis counseling team the police could call if necessary but really they should do nothing as there wasn’t a problem. The guy said it had been going on for a long time which is why he started filming. I walk a distance away and then stand to watch. I was hoping if they attracted enough people watching there might be a better outcome. Others stop as well.

Eventually a 5th police car arrived and talked to them. Eventually they all left. I am grateful that people can record and care enough about strangers to be a witness to events. I know that’s not always enough as police have hurt or killed people while in front of a crowd. I do feel for the police as they aren’t trained to handle these situations and wish every city had a crisis count team to help. I also wish I lived in a town where I respected the police.

[catherine]

I have heard that iPhone cameras are the new "confessionals." They are what hold people accountable. Very interesting trend.There is a lot not good about using media 24/7, but OTOH, if it causes people to pay attention and be a witness, that may be a good outcome.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQGOriTnJuw

Good for you, Terry, for being concerned and involved.

[Alan]

Out of curiosity, what makes you think several people watching and one recording from his car had any impact on the resolution? It sounds like you're implying that without witnesses, the mentally ill person would have been harmed in some way, which I find odd.

[catherine]

I think that it's always a better thing to have two or more people witness an event than one. A law enforcement officer and a social worker and a bystander are likely to have three different interpretations of an event, and it's a benefit to all involved to be able to triangulate the data and come to some agreement as to the actual events.

[Teacher Terry]

Because police locally have not only shot and killed MI people but also shot the daughter that called because she was worried about her mom. I have seen a few incidents downtown that people were minding their own business and once police arrived it didn’t go so well. The more witnesses and video the better. If nothing wrong is happening there shouldn’t be a problem. Video definitely protects police.

[Teacher Terry]

Back when Williamsmith was here I know I told the story about the guy in Kenosha flashing a badge and telling me he was a cop when I pointed my truck at him and threatened to run him over. He was trying to get a teenager into his car. I didn’t believe him and said that I would run him over first and then call the police. This was 35 years ago. I gave the girl a ride home. That time I figured if he was a real police officer he would have called for backup and I probably would have been in big trouble.

[Yppej]

Out of curiosity, what makes you think several people watching and one recording from his car had any impact on the resolution? It sounds like you're implying that without witnesses, the mentally ill person would have been harmed in some way, which I find odd.

Google "mentally ill people killed by police" and you will find more statistics that will break your heart than you can imagine.

There are people here who have said I should kick my MI son out and change the locks. Given what happens in this country I couldn't live with myself if he were on the streets facing those bad apples who kill people in numerous cases - such as that of Elijah McClain - because they are different. I have not read that McClain had a mental illness, but like my son he was extremely introverted and related better to animals than to most people.

Terry you did good.

[Teacher Terry]

Elijah’s story is heartbreaking. I am glad that they are finally prosecuting the police and paramedics. I don’t believe that he was homeless but merely had walked to the store.

[Yppej]

Elijah’s story is heartbreaking. I am glad that they are finally prosecuting the police and paramedics. I don’t believe that he was homeless but merely had walked to the store.

You are correct. He was not homeless but he was different.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Merry Early Christmas! Today's gift is that I am going to refrain from posting in regards to either the police or filming the police here. You'all know what I think on these topics so I'll avoid controversy and pass. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

I have heard that iPhone cameras are the new "confessionals." They are what hold people accountable. Very interesting trend.There is a lot not good about using media 24/7, but OTOH, if it causes people to pay attention and be a witness, that may be a good outcome.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQGOriTnJuw

Good for you, Terry, for being concerned and involved.:Plus about one trillion! Rob

[Teacher Terry]

My oldest son stopped over and I told him what happened. He said that if I ever see a situation escalating and the police acting inappropriately in this type of situation I can always call the non emergency number to report it and ask for a supervisor to be sent. I am guessing that fifth police car was a supervisor who broke up the situation and sent them all on their way. Hopefully my walks will resume being peaceful. We really need to do better as a country to help people with MI. He is not the first person I have seen that appeared to be delusional and homeless. Nevada in general lacks adequate human services.

[gimmethesimplelife]

My oldest son stopped over and I told him what happened. He said that if I ever see a situation escalating and the police acting inappropriately in this type of situation I can always call the non emergency number to report it and ask for a supervisor to be sent. I am guessing that fifth police car was a supervisor who broke up the situation and sent them all on their way. Hopefully my walks will resume being peaceful. We really need to do better as a country to help people with MI. He is not the first person I have seen that appeared to be delusional and homeless. Nevada in general lacks adequate human services.Did Nevada expand Medicaid? This person sounds like someone who might be able to get counseling and meds in Arizona under Medicaid - but good luck with housing! Rents are going going going up up up in Phoenix and now the median price for a home is just over 400K. And with the eviction moratorium ending we will have more homeless folks nationwide and more people sinking into mental illness due to the insanity of modern life. Ay carumba is all I can say. Rob

PS Came back to add that with meds, many such people can work. Maybe not each and every one - but many. Housing seems to be the missing link for these folks to participate in society.....and almost nationwide housing is just getting too damned expensive. Rob

[rosarugosa]

We had a recent incident in our area where the police killed a mentally ill woman:
https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2021/08/16/stephanie-gerardi-police-involved-shooting-saugus/

[iris lilies]

We had a recent incident in our area where the police killed a mentally ill woman:
https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2021/08/16/stephanie-gerardi-police-involved-shooting-saugus/
Unfortunately, when someone comes after a police officer with lethal force, a police officer is going to use lethal force to stop the attack. “Could have maced, could have shot her in the toe” isnt realistic. Coulda shoulda woulda is monday morning quarterbacking anyway.

People who attack police officers do not get special dispensation if they have mental illness.

As for Teacher Terry’s situation, I don’t call police if anyone with odd, non threatening behavior is hanging out in our public park.

I DO call cops if a person exhibiting non-socially compliant behavior is hanging out on my block or in the nearby business district, seemingly not moving through the area, but planted there.

Of course, seldom do cops come. Recording calls for police service in our neighborhood matters, though.

[iris lilies]

Back when every protester and his brother were rioting in Ferguson, Missouri, a few days after Michael Brown was shot, a mentally ill man came after police officers at a Quick Trip here in my city. That did not go well for the guy because he was wielding a knife.

Officers are not required to just “take it” in knife wounds in order to save someone’s life, take it until they can get the guy on the ground and cuffed. They are not required now, nor should they be. When a cop says “stop” or “hands up” or “get on the ground” and you do not do that, there are inevitable results. If you hold a weapon, those results are usually serious.

And it is unfortunate that all kinds of reasons exist where people do not obey orders.

[Alan]

I DO call cops if a person exhibiting non-socially compliant behavior is hanging out on my block or in the nearby business district, seemingly not moving through the area, but planted there.
As did someone, apparently, in the OP's "Police Incident" post.

I'm still not sure why the police encounter in question was labeled that way. From the little information shared it would appear to me that someone called police on a mentally ill person in the area. We don't know how it was reported but we do know that more than one officer responded. The responding officers then apparently spent some time interacting with the mentally ill person before seemingly determining he was not a threat to himself or others. Again, with little to no information disclosed it would appear that they then called a supervisor or perhaps some other specialist officer for guidance on whether it would be prudent to allow the person to go on his way or perhaps transport the person to a medical facility for a more advanced screening. I would suspect that to be standard operating procedure in a call such as this because I can guarantee those responding officers do not want to be personally responsible for the fallout if that person were allowed to continue on his way and then harmed someone after their contact with him, especially once lookie loos had spent a part of their day observing, recording and critiquing their encounter.

It sounds like a routine police encounter to me, one that probably occurs dozens of times a day in Reno. I wonder if they're all then presented as some variation of 'Courageous bystanders use video to prevent police from harming innocent, powerless person with disabilities'?

[LDAHL]

It sounds like a routine police encounter to me, one that probably occurs dozens of times a day in Reno. I wonder if they're all then presented as some variation of 'Courageous bystanders use video to prevent police from harming innocent, powerless person with disabilities'?

They have a large body of anecdata to back up their heroic aspirations. I guess there’s never a social worker around when you need one, so we have to rely on the thin line of video vigilantes.

[gimmethesimplelife]

There recently was a case with a LEO getting 25 years in prison in Huntsville, Alabama. The former officer shot and killed a suicidal man who held a gun to.his head but never pointed it to the former officer nor his partner. His partner was a female cop who to her credit was working on DEescalating the situation. This woman even testified against her partner at the trial.

This happened in Alabama, folks. Can't get much more Conservative than Alabama! Anyone wishing to google - the imprisoned cop's name is Ben Darby. I am floored that in Conservative Alabama, prosecutors/DA's office gave no free pass to this former officer and aggresively prosecuted this case. Things are changing, folks. Things are indeed changing. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

About the above situation, what prosecutors say led them to prosecute - this former officer Ben Darby - he pulled the trigger 11 seconds after arriving on the scene and ignoring his partner's wish to continue deescalating the situation. Rob

[Teacher Terry]

This particular young man is probably delusional however he never bothers anyone or gets close to people. He just happily dances and sings in place. With current laws it’s impossible to get him services because you can’t have a coherent conversation. They were talked rudely and in a disrespectful tone and had formed a half circle around him. He went from happily dancing to sitting on the ground looking down and rocking. They were trying to intimidate him and the cops were all large people.

They should have called the crisis team to handle these calls. Crisis counselors or crisis social workers have extra, special training to de-escalate situations. Police need to realize that they are ill equipped to adequately handle this type of situation. As a social worker I am obligated and can be sanctioned and lose my license if I practice outside my scope of experience and expertise.

[gimmethesimplelife]

This particular young man is probably delusional however he never bothers anyone or gets close to people. He just happily dances and sings in place. With current laws it’s impossible to get him services because you can’t have a coherent conversation. They were talked rudely and in a disrespectful tone and had formed a half circle around him. He went from happily dancing to sitting on the ground looking down and rocking. They were trying to intimidate him and the cops were all large people.

They should have called the crisis team to handle these calls. Crisis counselors or crisis social workers have extra, special training to de-escalate situations. Police need to realize that they are ill equipped to adequately handle this type of situation. As a social worker I am obligated and can be sanctioned and lose my license if I practice outside my scope of experience and expertise.TT, I could not agree with you more, especially your second paragraph. I'm not going to bash the police here folks.....we have enough controversy over in the Health forum. What I will say in this case - the person in question does not sound like a criminal to me. From what's been posted my take is he needs meds, counseling, and some kind of at least temporary housing. Maybe something akin to.a sober living house for those recovering from mental illness/trying to reintergrate into society. I see no reason here period for law enforcement involvement. Rob

[happystuff]

TT, I could not agree with you more, especially your second paragraph. I'm not going to bash the police here folks.....we have enough controversy over in the Health forum. What I will say in this case - the person in question does not sound like a criminal to me. From what's been posted my take is he needs meds, counseling, and some kind of at least temporary housing. Maybe something akin to.a sober living house for those recovering from mental illness/trying to reintergrate into society. I see no reason here period for law enforcement involvement. Rob

I agree with this, but the problem is that nobody wants "them" (such "recovery" housing, etc) in their neighborhoods.

"Yes, provide the help! But NOT here!" is what I continually see in my own area.

[bae]

In my area, the police and other first responders receive training in dealing with mental health issues, and we seem to have a pretty good track record of acting with compassion.

The County doesn't really have a special "crisis team" - we have some mental health professionals on staff/call, but they rarely are on-scene in the initial stages, given the geographic challenges we have here.

The constant problem we face is: "now what?" There aren't in-county mental health beds/care facilities. In fact, they are in short supply for people in crisis all over the state of Washington. We sometimes spend hours on the phone/radio trying to find someplace that can accept our patient, and the success rate there isn't nearly as high as I'd like to see.

The whole system is a bit broken.

[happystuff]

In my area, the police and other first responders receive training in dealing with mental health issues, and we seem to have a pretty good track record of acting with compassion.

The County doesn't really have a special "crisis team" - we have some mental health professionals on staff/call, but they rarely are on-scene in the initial stages, given the geographic challenges we have here.

The constant problem we face is: "now what?" There aren't in-county mental health beds/care facilities. In fact, they are in short supply for people in crisis all over the state of Washington. We sometimes spend hours on the phone/radio trying to find someplace that can accept our patient, and the success rate there isn't nearly as high as I'd like to see.

The whole system is a bit broken.

Yes, the system may be broken, but it sounds like you and yours are doing the best they can - especially when I see you use the word "compassion"!!! Kudos!

[iris lilies]

This particular young man is probably delusional however he never bothers anyone or gets close to people. He just happily dances and sings in place. With current laws it’s impossible to get him services because you can’t have a coherent conversation. They were talked rudely and in a disrespectful tone and had formed a half circle around him. He went from happily dancing to sitting on the ground looking down and rocking. They were trying to intimidate him and the cops were all large people.

They should have called the crisis team to handle these calls. Crisis counselors or crisis social workers have extra, special training to de-escalate situations. Police need to realize that they are ill equipped to adequately handle this type of situation. As a social worker I am obligated and can be sanctioned and lose my license if I practice outside my scope of experience and expertise.


It may well be that this particular incident involved twice as many police officers and a bigger intimidation factor than necessary.

But I do not buy that police officers have zero training in de-escalation and dealing with mentally ill people on the street. We have had this discussion before. That doesn’t mean that they have the extensive training that you have, but then, are social workers really doing a complete evaluation and/or therapy in the first 20 minutes of a call for service for a street person? No they’re not.
And any training of law enforcement personnel will vary from district to district.

[Teacher Terry]

We closed the psychiatrist hospitals under Reagan because they were hell holes. The plan was to provide services in the communities. But the feds didn’t provide enough money and kept the rest of the savings. Prior to this event you rarely had people on the street. Here the group homes are not announced to the community in advance so people can’t oppose them. Once established there haven’t been enough problems for it to be a big issue.

Also laws changed in all these decades so you can’t lock up someone for long because they are delusional unless they are threatening to hurt themselves or others. I think you can do a 3 day hold. Being retired I am not as current with everything that’s happening.

The PACT model has been successful and is a model for the country. We should spend money on creating this program nationally because it includes housing and people feel like part of a community. Clients are encouraged to work with staff on projects and to be independent. A casual observer often can’t tell the difference between staff and clients. In times of crisis such as a natural disaster clients have even taken on the duties of staff and that was a outcome that was totally unexpected. If we directed some of the money we spend on wars and the military what we could achieve would be phenomenal. It’s too bad our priorities are all f**ked up.

[iris lilies]

We closed the psychiatrist hospitals under Reagan because they were hell holes. The plan was to provide services in the communities. But the feds didn’t provide enough money and kept the rest of the savings. Prior to this event you rarely had people on the street. Here the group homes are not announced to the community in advance so people can’t oppose them. Once established there haven’t been enough problems for it to be a big issue.

Also laws changed in all these decades so you can’t lock up someone for long because they are delusional unless they are threatening to hurt themselves or others. I think you can do a 3 day hold. Being retired I am not as current with everything that’s happening.

The PACT model has been successful and is a model for the country. We should spend money on creating this program nationally because it includes housing and people feel like part of a community. Clients are encouraged to work with staff on projects and to be independent. A casual observer often can’t tell the difference between staff and clients. In times of crisis such as a natural disaster clients have even taken on the duties of staff and that was a outcome that was totally unexpected. If we directed some of the money we spend on wars and the military what we could achieve would be phenomenal. It’s too bad our priorities are all f**ked up.

In my neighborhood no one private entity of worth or any government agency will be sneaking in group homes because we have legislation against that. There a limit as to how many unrelated adults can live together in one unit.

Of course you will call us NIMBYS,but I dont care. But what the name callers wont recognize is this legislation covers boarding houses that were rife in my neighborhood. I actually remember more than one when I moved in 30+ years ago. The boarding houses we’re pretty bad if they survived into the 90s. There was a time when boarding houses
were a place for working class people to have a clean and simple room and,depending on who ran the place, they were not a problem in our neighborhood. But that was a long time ago.

Last time we let non-market rate, specialized housing, into our neighborhood it was quite a problem property for about 10 years. It was long time ago and they were subsudized new apartments built for AIDS patients. Our neighborhood patted ourselves on the back for being so compassionate and progressive because we thought residents would be nice gay men.

But we got screwed on that deal because it was a bunch of needle users who lived there. These folks did not stop with their drugging even when appropriately housed in nice units in a lovely neighborhood. Gosh who knew that could happen?? !!?

[gimmethesimplelife]

I agree with this, but the problem is that nobody wants "them" (such "recovery" housing, etc) in their neighborhoods.

"Yes, provide the help! But NOT here!" is what I continually see in my own area.I can see your point. In my.neighborhood (not going off on a zip code tangent here), historically housing prices have neen markedly lower than the Phoenix metro area as a whole.. This has very much changed in the past two years and I now live in Gentrification Central. But before this, due to the once roughness of the neighborhood and it's corresponding lower housing costs, we had several recovery houses in walking distance of my house. Gotta be.honest - there were very few if any problems at these houses and problematic people who would not follow house rules were evicted after a talk or two.

Seriously.....the worst problems in the neighborhood came from the people cooking meth six houses south of me on my side of the street. Typical druggie drama and police constantly at the property. One time I was walking home from the McDowell Road bus stop and a police helicopter flew by and then shined a light on me - it was at night - I guess they realized I was not who they were looking for. They then flew over the meth house, shined the light there, and started giving commands. Within a minute three cop cars pulled up. I wisely kept walking snd ignoring and made it home.

My point? In my experience, recovery houses are NOT a bad thing. I'd rather live next to one than next to a meth house. To end my story.....the meth house is no longer a meth house and a couple from Indiana bought it and are fixing it up. And since gentrification arrived, the recovery houses have been sold also. I'm guessing they are now located in rougher areas south and west of me. Rob