View Full Version : Workplace Vaccine Mandate
My company has more than 100 employees. I am very happy there and get along with all of my coworkers, 30% of whom are unvaccinated. I hope we don't lose any of them over the new Biden mandate, especially my boss. The last time his position was open I heard a real micromanager in the company applied but wasn't selected. I would not want to end up with him.
The boss says there are lots of jobs out there and he will quit before he will get a vaccine.
My take is that the alternative to vaccine requirements is a weekly negative test. There seems to be a reasonable out for people not wanting or able to get the shot.
The RNC has already announced they will be filing a lawsuit against the mandate. Stay tuned.
My take is that the alternative to vaccine requirements is a weekly negative test. There seems to be a reasonable out for people not wanting or able to get the shot.
I have several friends with documented long-term medical conditions that make getting the vaccine a bad idea, per their doctors. Their medical exemptions have been refused by their employers. These are long term friends who are NOT anti vaxxers. They’re actually pretty distressed they can’t get the vax. Their employers are threatening to fire them. They’ve all gone to lawyers about this. Different employers in different areas of the country. None are in health care or first responder jobs.
GeorgeParker
9-10-21, 10:35am
The RNC has already announced they will be filing a lawsuit against the mandate.If Biden said he was going to have grilled cheese on toast for breakfast, the RNC would file a lawsuit against it, our Texas governor would issue an executive order prohibiting it, and Trump would claim eating grilled cheese on toast is somehow part of a conspiracy to steal the election. The same thing would happen if Biden said he isn't going to eat grilled cheese on toast for breakfast.
Totally not news either way, just like the knee jerk reaction to this vaccine mandate.
The boss did get tested several times so his daughter could go to college, go back after semester break, etc but he would rather quit than go through that every week or get the shot. He says he won't blame anyone if he gets covid and he is willing to take that risk.
Last Fall the President called such mandates “unenforceable”, but we seem to have acquired herd immunity to the Constitution in the meantime.
Last Fall the President called such mandates “unenforceable”, but we seem to have acquired herd immunity to the Constitution in the meantime.
Yes. Anytime someone has a virus in their bodies even if they have no symptoms they can be forcibly confined to their homes and not even allowed out of doors to work in their yard. They can be prohibited from getting food delivered even if it is contactless delivery.
I have several friends with documented long-term medical conditions that make getting the vaccine a bad idea, per their doctors. Their medical exemptions have been refused by their employers. These are long term friends who are NOT anti vaxxers. They’re actually pretty distressed they can’t get the vax. Their employers are threatening to fire them. They’ve all gone to lawyers about this. Different employers in different areas of the country. None are in health care or first responder jobs.
I don't doubt the situation, but wonder if it is more employer specific rather than relating to the new Federal mandates.
I wonder if there will be more proliferation of fake cards or if there is some sort of digital record to verify.
Here is a news story about one quarantine in my state:
https://whdh.com/7-investigates/hank-investigates/hank-investigates-college-campus-covid-quarantine-conditions/
I don't doubt the situation, but wonder if it is more employer specific rather than relating to the new Federal mandates.
I wonder if there will be more proliferation of fake cards or if there is some sort of digital record to verify.
This is employer specific. We’re not talking about religious exemptions, but medical. One person can’t get the flu shot because of being severely allergic to some ingredient. Life threatening reaction. Her doctor told her the covid vax would likely provoke the same reaction. Her doctor provided all sorts of documentation and her employer still rejected the medical exemption. Now this is bordering on weapons grade stupidity. You’re threatening to fire someone for not getting a vax that could kill them? We’re not taking about someone talking their doctor into writing an exemption letter for something mild or questionable.
Teacher Terry
9-10-21, 11:48am
Tradd, I really don’t know how the employer could reject a well documented medical exemption. It’s bizarre. I can’t take the shingles vaccine because I am extremely allergic to one of the ingredients.
Tradd, I really don’t know how the employer could reject a well documented medical exemption. It’s bizarre. I can’t take the shingles vaccine because I am extremely allergic to one of the ingredients.
I have no clue. I’ve read elsewhere on line a few weeks back of employers rejecting ALL medical exemptions. I have no idea if that’s true, but multiple people are saying that’s their employers’ policy, and given what the people I actually know are running into, I’m leaning towards it being true. It’s going to take a minimum of letters from lawyers threatening legal action for some employers to see sense about documented medical conditions.
GeorgeParker
9-10-21, 11:59am
This is employer specific. We’re not talking about religious exemptions, but medical. One person can’t get the flu shot because of being severely allergic to some ingredient. Life threatening reaction. Her doctor told her the covid vax would likely provoke the same reaction. Her doctor provided all sorts of documentation and her employer still rejected the medical exemption. Now this is bordering on weapons grade stupidity. You’re threatening to fire someone for not getting a vax that could kill them? We’re not taking about someone talking their doctor into writing an exemption letter for something mild or questionable.Unless your friends belong to a union or have a management position with a formal employment contract, they're probably classified as an "employee at will". That means either the employer or employee can end their employment at any time for any reason with or without prior notice. Of course if someone believes they've been fired unfairly they can file a lawsuit against their employer, but that becomes part of the public record, and any new potential employer who does a background check will see it.... I mean, what kind of moron would hire someone who sued their former employer, right?
Better for your friends to find a new job with an employer who isn't an a$$hole as quickly as they can, imo. Mandatory vaccination as a company policy or a government mandate is going to be a fact of life from now on, just like you can't enroll your kids in school if they haven't had their mandatory childhood vaccines.
BTW I don't have a smallpox vaccine scar on my arm, but almost everyone else my age does. I was inoculated three times and none of them took, so I had to keep a doctor's certificate on file at my elementary school saying I have natural immunity so the teachers wouldn't freak out when they noticed I didn't have a scar on my arm. So, mandatory vaccinations are nothing new, but it will take a while before everybody realizes that some people actually are legitimately exempt from getting vaccinated.
GeorgeParker
9-10-21, 12:16pm
Ref what I just said about me not having a smallpox vaccine scar: https://twitter.com/holtonbarb/status/1376905652510031875
3957
I have the scar, but I think later the vaccine was administered in a way that did not leave a scar.
ApatheticNoMore
9-10-21, 12:19pm
Unless your friends belong to a union or have a management position with a formal employment contract, they're probably classified as an "employee at will". That means either the employer or employee can end their employment at any time for any reason with or without prior notice.
Well yes but there is also the ADA etc.. There are things employers don't want to fall on the wrong side of.
When I got fired from a job awhile ago, some suggested the employee that got me fired, used their clout under the ADA (they had physical problems) to get me fired. I was like no, probably not, they just used their clout of being a more senior employee who knew more about the company etc. and thus were more valuable to the company, and were probably: fire her or I quit. Not that I will ever really know of course, except that they got me fired, that much was obvious.
As for panic about employees leaving might as well panic about the sun coming up today or something, it's that much a part of life. So the company my bf works for has lost a lot of their truck drivers and won't pay more. If they initially paid as little as possible to maximize profits or something, it's now become a character trait, they are pretty much destroying the company rather than pay more. But the employees aren't leaving due to vaccine mandates. We just lost an incredibly valuable employee, and now I'm in that seat, but not to vaccine mandates. I wouldn't want a bad boss either, and worker bees leave a lot more often than managers but managers can also leave. Why don't I leave, being that there's jobs and money all over apparently. I hate job searching, I'm not unhappy with the job, I can still learn things at this job.
GeorgeParker
9-10-21, 12:54pm
Well yes but there is also the ADA etc.. There are things employers don't want to fall on the wrong side of.True that.
There are things employers don't want to fall on the wrong side of.
I wonder what will happen when boosters become available? The administration was keen on booster shots just a few weeks ago which makes me wonder, if boosters become available soon, will employees who were previously consider fully vaccinated immediately lose that status if they have not received the booster?
I also wonder if the mandate will actually be enforced since there seemed to be quite a bit of political blame shifting in his speech. It seemed equal parts 'do as I say to benefit everyone' and 'blame Republican governors to the benefit of my falling poll numbers', I'm not sure which was the driving force.
I wonder what will happen when boosters become available? The administration was keen on booster shots just a few weeks ago which makes me wonder, if boosters become available soon, will employees who were previously consider fully vaccinated immediately lose that status if they have not received the booster?
I also wonder if the mandate will actually be enforced since there seemed to be quite a bit of political blame shifting in his speech. It seemed equal parts 'do as I say to benefit everyone' and 'blame Republican governors to the benefit of my falling poll numbers', I'm not sure which was the driving force.
Haven't boosters only been approved for Pfizer?
ApatheticNoMore
9-10-21, 3:20pm
It's definitely problematic with boosters, as I'm not so sure how strong the scientific case is for boosters for all. Look noone is, or the Biden administration, the CDC and the FDA wouldn't be all fighting over the issue, not to mention pharma. Hardly a consensus.
The polls numbers are complete garbage anyway though. One can have their reasons for disliking Biden, but the poll numbers seem to be driven by the silliest reasons possible. Ending a forever war that was going nowhere? Wow that's how strong the war propaganda is, how much war is part of our collective identity as a country always at war. And that is more important to people than the best job market we've seen in decades? "Oh yea a forever war fought in some country I can barely find on a map, is way more important to me than the job market, CNN tells me so ..." (there may be problems with the economy but I suspect they are things like a great deal of debt built up in the rent and mortgage moratorium etc.). Of course sure having a forever pandemic as well may hurt Biden, and part of this is insufficient vaccination rates, a forever pandemic it's not exactly positive for much.
For as long as I have been involved with emergency services, we had to either be vaccinated for all sorts of things, and tested on a regular basis to see if the vaccines had held. Or we couldn’t work.
I was reading about this mandate today. Most employers are happy because they want to get back to normal, and if they had put in a mandate and others didn't then they would have lost their employees to competitors, so this levels the playing field among large employers.
However, some midsize companies will be doing layoffs to get below the 100 employee threshold.
ApatheticNoMore
9-10-21, 3:40pm
In what world would layoffs to get below the 100 employee threshold make any sense as a business decision unless it already made sense regardless? But what if the employer is a crazy antivax Trumper? Well yea, then that's not an economically driven business decision at that point, but personal cra cra and sadly the power to implement it.
But if the worry is of employees quitting, laying off employees in response is just what: "you can't fire me, I quit!" style obstinacy, or something? Employees might quit if we had a mandate, so we'll just have to layoff employees instead? And then they pay unemployment when they lay off employees, unemployment is not paid when employees quit. And then layoffs tend to depress morale as well, so may lead to employees fleeing anyway. "Ack they are laying people off! I better jump while the jumping is good!"
The polls numbers are complete garbage anyway though. One can have their reasons for disliking Biden, but the poll numbers seem to be driven by the silliest reasons possible. Ending a forever war that was going nowhere? Wow that's how strong the war propaganda is, how much war is part of our collective identity as a country always at war.
It wasn't the Afghan pullout that hurt his poll numbers, huge majorities believed it was time to do so, it was the way it was done, haphazardly and chaotic. But that ship has sailed so any strategist with their salt would recommend he go after his political opponents if there's any chance of staving off an opposing party rout in the midterms. You could almost see the desperation to do so in his address the other night. That's why a part of me wonders if this whole mandate business was just a way lay blame on Republicans with no real interest in enforcing the mandate. I guess time will tell.
ApatheticNoMore
9-10-21, 4:07pm
Yea I suspect it had to be haphazard and chaotic, not that people weren't hurt by it and that sucks, but several presidents have tried to withdraw and failed (both Obama and Trump). They've watched it fall apart. Biden actually finished the job. I suspect Biden learned from Obama and his inability to end the war, he's stronger and more decisive than Obama when he actually wants to do something (oh there are many things I wish Biden wanted to do, but he seems to only have a limited number of things he actually cares about. He's limited as a person, but he got the withdrawal from Afghanistan done).
I don't know what enforcing the mandate will look like, but it's obvious to anyone you can't have part of the country overwhelmed by virus to the point where they don't have adequate hospitals, even though we have a vaccine, and expect that to be functional going ahead. That duh this is no way to run a country, an economy, a society, keep the medical system from collapsing. Nor is it necessarily good for Biden's reelection etc. nor businesses etc., well no maybe not that either. But that's mostly because it represents some form of social breakdown, which was one thing before we even had any vaccines but ....
frugal-one
9-10-21, 4:18pm
This is employer specific. We’re not talking about religious exemptions, but medical. One person can’t get the flu shot because of being severely allergic to some ingredient. Life threatening reaction. Her doctor told her the covid vax would likely provoke the same reaction. Her doctor provided all sorts of documentation and her employer still rejected the medical exemption. Now this is bordering on weapons grade stupidity. You’re threatening to fire someone for not getting a vax that could kill them? We’re not taking about someone talking their doctor into writing an exemption letter for something mild or questionable.
Person should check with the OSHA... the federal dept that will enforcing/invoking the rules.
frugal-one
9-10-21, 4:20pm
I wonder what will happen when boosters become available? The administration was keen on booster shots just a few weeks ago which makes me wonder, if boosters become available soon, will employees who were previously consider fully vaccinated immediately lose that status if they have not received the booster?
I also wonder if the mandate will actually be enforced since there seemed to be quite a bit of political blame shifting in his speech. It seemed equal parts 'do as I say to benefit everyone' and 'blame Republican governors to the benefit of my falling poll numbers', I'm not sure which was the driving force.
I believe the specific one Biden was referring to was FL where the gov is threatening to fire teachers and others if they wear masks or whatever.
I would imagine that a lot of employers will be glad there’s a mandate for the same reason as when there were/are mask mandates. It’s a whole lot easier to enforce when it’s a governmental mandate versus just the company’s decision.
And as yppej pointed out, most businesses just want to get back to normal and the only way that’s going to happen is mass vaccination. I assume that a lot of businesses in certain segments are worried as this drags on. For instance I was supposed to take three work related trips this fall. One got cancelled outright, and one I probably won’t take. The third is a conference I’m willing to go to because it’s tightly focused on my work and will only be attended by other people that work in my little niche of the insurance world. That’s six hotel nights, two round trip plane tickets and a lot of client entertainment (food and alcohol at bars and restaurants) not being purchased. And I am surely not the only person by a long shot who is making changes to their plans because the pandemic is still very much happening.
I believe the specific one Biden was referring to was FL where the gov is threatening to fire teachers and others if they wear masks or whatever.
No one in Florida is threatening to fire teachers who wear masks, they can wear masks if they want, the issue is that the governor won't allow school districts to force teachers to wear masks.
GeorgeParker
9-10-21, 5:53pm
No one in Florida is threatening to fire teachers who wear masks, they can wear masks if they want, the issue is that the governor won't allow school districts to force teachers to wear masks.So switch the subject to Texas: Our (expletive deleted) governor is being sued by school districts and other local government entities because he issued an executive order saying stores, restaurants, and other businesses are free to require customers and employees to wear masks if they want to, but any public school or government building requiring employees or visitors to wear a mask is absolutely forbidden. What kind of sense does that make. And remember, these are mostly Republican local officials suing a Republican governor. So much for partisanship!
So switch the subject to Texas: Our (expletive deleted) governor is being sued by school districts and other local government entities because he issued an executive order saying stores, restaurants, and other businesses are free to require or not require customers and employees the wear masks if they want to, but public schools and government buildings requiring employees or visitors to wear a mask is absolutely forbidden. What kind of sense does that make. And remember, these are mostly Republican local officials suing a Republican governor.
Of course the major difference is that public schools and government buildings are representative of the government itself whereas private businesses are not. A private business is free to establish terms of service or employment as long as they do not discriminate against a growing list of protected persons whereas the government can't pick favorites (at least not officially) and it has no problem forcing its wishes on whoever it wants as long as it is done uniformly.
By the way, I thought you said you were a libertarian? It is usually only statists who wish their government to crush individual liberty.
flowerseverywhere
9-10-21, 6:21pm
Florida is complicated. DeSantis only was elected by .4%. Not exactly a bright red state.
in August 16 deaths were under 18 years old. Pediatric wards are full. Good luck if you have a heart attack or stroke. ICU occupancy has been over 95% in the state for months.
against this background desantis decided no school or business could mandate masks.
sensible people know each area is different. Around me our vaccination rate is over 70%, very high for Florida which is about 52% vaccinated. Most of our schools are smaller schools with lots of outdoor space. However some districts have a totally different scenario
Desantis said he would withhold salaries of school boards who had mandates. Some districts have defied him. Also parents of disabled children feel it endangers their kids a they have a greater chance to require hospitalizations.
Recently a vaccine was required for some first responder groups. They protested with signs that said “my body, my choice”. I laughed out loud at the irony of using that slogan. In the meantime innocent kids are sick because the governor denies CDC guidelines.
it should be up to individual districts which vary greatly. Don’t want your kid to wear a mask? They can stay home. Causing the death of another is murder.
In the meantime innocent kids are sick because the governor denies CDC guidelines.
Do parents have a responsibility regarding the health of their children or are we dependent upon the state to take care of us?
Parents have a responsibility for sure, but what happens when they abdicate that responsibility, and that results in the illness of children with conscientious parents?
iris lilies
9-10-21, 6:51pm
Do parents have a responsibility regarding the health of their children or are we dependent upon the state to take care of us?
I have had the same reaction as you had to this sort of thing. But I do want to ask you, what if I as a parent want my child to attend a school where kids are pretty much masked while indoors?
I guess my option is to remove my child from public school and do homeschooling or find a private school where they are masking up.
I thought the same thing last year about people who are complaining because their elderly relatives stuck in nursing homes for the year 2020 had no Socialization and etc. The option there is to always remove your elderly relatives and bring them home.
I don’t like the DeSantis anti-mask for schools action at all in Florida. At all. But I guess I can be happy the Feds at least are not Issuing masking mandates for public schools. Or private schools for that matter. They don’t have the standing to do that but I’m not sure were are at a point anymore where that would stop them.
I still don't get why the public schools don't set up two sets of classrooms - masked and maskless. Both teachers and students could request the one they want.
frugal-one
9-10-21, 7:18pm
No one in Florida is threatening to fire teachers who wear masks, they can wear masks if they want, the issue is that the governor won't allow school districts to force teachers to wear masks.
Today... Sept 10, 2021
The on-again, off-again ban imposed by Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis to prevent mandating masks for Florida school students amid the ongoing coronavirus outbreak is back in force.
The 1st District Court of Appeal ruled Friday that a Tallahassee judge should not have lifted an automatic stay two days ago that halted enforcement of the mask mandate ban.
The upshot is that the state could resume its efforts to impose financial penalties on the 13 school boards currently defying the mask mandate ban. Those have included docking salaries of local school board members who voted to impose student mask mandates.
Board members in many communities in my state are not paid. So to me a school board member not being paid is no big deal. They meet in the evenings so they can hold other jobs.
frugal-one
9-10-21, 7:26pm
Do parents have a responsibility regarding the health of their children or are we dependent upon the state to take care of us?
In times of a pandemic... if there is not enough compliance I believe the state/or feds should step in. There are no individual rights in this situation. Those who hold out pose a threat to everyone else. Variants will run rampant and we will never be done with this scourge on mankind.
I would be happy to see businesses REQUIRE proof of vaccination before anyone is allowed to enter their establishment. A few days ago a friend said that is what they are doing in Canada. Wise decision IMO.
Kids are mandated to have certain vaccinations to attend school. I don't see the difference in this situation.
There are no individual rights in this situation. Those who hold out pose a threat to everyone else. Variants will run rampant and we will never be done with this scourge on mankind.
I would be happy to see businesses REQUIRE proof of vaccination before anyone is allowed to enter their establishment. A few days ago a friend said that is what they are doing in Canada. Wise decision IMO.
What a chilling statement. Tyrants usually claim some crisis to justify depriving people of their rights.
Those who hold out do not pose a threat to everyone. They pose a threat to other holdouts.
Variants come from other countries where people do not have access to vaccines. Delta came from India, lambda from Peru, mu from Colombia and Ecuador. Following World Health Organization recommendations is the way to fix this, but Americans want to hog all the vaccines for booster shots.
You like Canada - they made sure everyone could get a first dose before administering second doses, rather like the WHO approach.
There is an elitist view that people are too stupid to know what is good for them. But elderly people regardless of party affiliation are highly vaccinated because they are highly at risk. People at low risk are sometimes skipping the vaccine. Covid just isn't that lethal, and the media constantly reporting on healthy athletes feeling fine but forced to sit out games on the covid injury list reinforces this. They're not injured!! Just like anyone who tests positive is not "home sick from school with covid". They're not sick!! It's like words being twisted in the novel 1984.
In times of a pandemic... if there is not enough compliance I believe the state/or feds should step in. There are no individual rights in this situation. Those who hold out pose a threat to everyone else. Variants will run rampant and we will never be done with this scourge on mankind.
I would be happy to see businesses REQUIRE proof of vaccination before anyone is allowed to enter their establishment. A few days ago a friend said that is what they are doing in Canada. Wise decision IMO.
Kids are mandated to have certain vaccinations to attend school. I don't see the difference in this situation.
So, are you saying that kids under 12 years of age who are not authorized access to the vaccines should not be allowed to go to school?
As for Canada, they seem to be pretty picky on what they'll allow and what they won't. A school board in Ontario recently held a "flame purification ceremony" to dispose of books they thought others might find offensive, then used the ashes as fertilizer for planting young trees. Prime Minister Trudeau was reported to have said, "I don't like the idea of burning books, but I don't like to tell other people what to do."
Should parents of children too young for vaccination be forced to choose between risking their kids’ lives and keeping them home? The right of other kids to swing their fists ends at those kids’ noses. The same goes for their breath during a pandemic spread through the air that is reduced by masks worn by potentially infected other kids.
And I don’t see how mandating covid vaccination for older kids is any different from all the other vaccine mandates that exist for school age kids.
frugal-one
9-10-21, 9:05pm
My granddaughter started prekindergarten this week. Her parents are sending her to a nature pre-K school that will be meeting outdoors for the entire school year (masked, I think, but not sure). I never heard of such a thing, especially in the cold north. They said she will be vaccinated as soon as she is able. This type of school is one alternative. The parents feel this is the safest option at this time.
There is no correlation between burning books and curbing a pandemic.
mschrisgo2
9-10-21, 9:59pm
Two ancillary and probably unrelated comments-
the school district I retired from 4 years ago starting requiring “flu shots” for everyone, no exemptions allowed. I’m highly allergic to something in the flu shots, so I would not have gotten one. Definitely a part of my decision to retire when I did.
(ironically, the last year I was there, we, as a school community of 900 students preK-6th grade, decided to see if we could greatly reduce our incidents of flu, with a 2-part approach: Nobody could be at school with a fever or sniffles. Everyone washed their hands upon arrival, before lunch, and after lunch. Hardly anyone was sick all year, with anything. Staff absenteeism was less than 2%, compared to 19% each of the prior 2 years; and student absenteeism was just under 3%, and only that high because several families took an extra week at Christmas for routine holiday in Mexico. Editorial comment: There are ways to prevent the spread of disease!)
Also, what is this flap about school board members pay being withheld in Florida if they don’t follow the governor’s wishes? Why, how, are they being paid by the state to begin with? Never heard of such nonsense!
Muppets. Muppets everywhere.
GeorgeParker
9-11-21, 12:35am
A school board in Ontario recently held a "flame purification ceremony" to dispose of books they thought others might find offensive, then used the ashes as fertilizer for planting young trees.Relevant Facts:
School libraries routinely remove out-dated books and books that people have complained about.
They owned the books and were free to dispose of them in any manner they chose.
They didn't confiscate the books or ask anyone to donate books to be burned.
The decision to remove those books from the school libraries was a long, detailed process.
They removed 4700 books (most of which were duplicates of just a few titles) but they only burned 30.
Burning those symbolic 30 and using them as fertilizer for a newly planted tree was a ritual gesture similar to rituals many people here have probably participated in. (Have you ever lit a candle as a spiritual gesture? Ever received the "body and blood" during communion service? Ever buried a beloved possession with a friend or relative?)
This URL links to a deliberately inflammatory editorial about that event: https://hotair.com/john-s-2/2021/09/08/ontario-school-board-held-flame-purification-ceremony-to-remove-books-offensive-to-aboriginal-knowledge-keepers-n414576 In spite of that editorial's obvious political intent, it does include the truth about what was burned, why it was burned in the way it was, and how the decision to remove those books from the school libraries was made.
Please read that editorial and make up your own mind about it.
I see nothing in this story except a well-intentioned gesture deliberately misrepresented for political purposes. I may not agree with all of their decisions about which books to withdraw or why to withdraw them, but it was their decision to make, just as deciding which books to buy and which to not buy is their decision to make.
happystuff
9-11-21, 12:41am
Today marked the end of the first week of school. Everyone masked.
GeorgeParker
9-11-21, 12:45am
Muppets. Muppets everywhere.Sometimes I'm Kermit, and sometimes I'm Animal. But I haven't figured out which one you are: Statler or Waldorf....
frugal-one
9-11-21, 3:52am
Previous health crisis that prompted mandatory vaccinations…. 1901 and 1922….
https://www.history.com/news/smallpox-vaccine-supreme-court
frugal-one
9-11-21, 4:05am
Sometimes I'm Kermit, and sometimes I'm Animal. But I haven't figured out which one you are: Statler or Waldorf....
TOP DEFINITION
Muppet
A person who is ignorant and generally has no idea about anything.
I still don't get why the public schools don't set up two sets of classrooms - masked and maskless. Both teachers and students could request the one they want.
It's not like our country has no experience with segregation :( We could definitely figure out the logistics. One wing of the building masked, one not.
I think the real objection is that masks zealots are afraid people would vote with their feet and run to the maskfree wing. I have heard these masks zealots say if we don't force people to do things they won't.
When covid started there was a great demand for masks that could not be met, ditto disinfectant spray and hand sanitizer. When vaccines started there was a great demand and people lined up for hours to get them. Before boosters started officially people started going to get them by lying. If Ebola spread in the community there would be a great demand for hazmat suits.
People are capable of knowing their risk factors, what they need to mitigate them, and acting accordingly. Parents are capable of doing that for their children.
Here are some facts from a study of the 25 pediatric deaths from covid in a one year period:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-01897-w
"About half of these deaths were in individuals with an underlying complex disability with high health-care needs, such as tube feeding or assistance with breathing."
A lot of if not all these children won't even be in school but in the hospital. Facts matter!
TOP DEFINITION
Muppet
A person who is ignorant and generally has no idea about anything.
"It's not easy being green." - Kermit the Frog
flowerseverywhere
9-11-21, 11:32am
Yes some school boards are paid
https://ballotpedia.org/School_board_salaries_in_America%27s_largest_schoo l_districts
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rochestercitynewspaper.com/rochester/rochester-school-board-members-consider-cutting-their-own-salaries/Content%3foid=12616260&media=AMP%2bHTML
iris lilies
9-11-21, 11:49am
Two ancillary and probably unrelated comments-
the school district I retired from 4 years ago starting requiring “flu shots” for everyone, no exemptions allowed. I’m highly allergic to something in the flu shots, so I would not have gotten one. Definitely a part of my decision to retire when I did.
(ironically, the last year I was there, we, as a school community of 900 students preK-6th grade, decided to see if we could greatly reduce our incidents of flu, with a 2-part approach: Nobody could be at school with a fever or sniffles. Everyone washed their hands upon arrival, before lunch, and after lunch. Hardly anyone was sick all year, with anything. Staff absenteeism was less than 2%, compared to 19% each of the prior 2 years; and student absenteeism was just under 3%, and only that high because several families took an extra week at Christmas for routine holiday in Mexico. Editorial comment: There are ways to prevent the spread of disease!)
Also, what is this flap about school board members pay being withheld in Florida if they don’t follow the governor’s wishes? Why, how, are they being paid by the state to begin with? Never heard of such nonsense!
That is a good point that general hygiene practices reduce disease.
I wondered about the school board thing too, but here in St. Louis there are citzen boards that are not paid a salary BUT they get perks that cost real money. I’m not talking about the school board here but about other prestigious powerful appointed citizen boards.
GeorgeParker
9-11-21, 11:58am
TOP DEFINITION Muppet -- A person who is ignorant and generally has no idea about anything.That definition totally misses the point. A "muppet" is a person who is easily manipulated because of their naivete regarding a particular topic. Most famously, Goldman Sachs referred to the people they sold worthless junk bonds to as muppets. https://archive.kpcc.org/blogs/economy/2012/03/15/5112/actually-muppets-are-goldman-sachs-clients/
OTOH it's fun to occasionally think about which Muppet is most like you (or someone you know). As noted, I tend to be Kermit most of the time, but I sometimes let my freak flag fly and turn into Animal. :)
{Definition: "Let your freak flag fly" means the times when a person with unconventional manners or mode of life feels comfortable enough to be himself/herself in front of others. It's when we allow ourselves to not be embarrassed about revealing who we really are.}
iris lilies
9-12-21, 12:45pm
Relevant Facts:
School libraries routinely remove out-dated books and books that people have complained about.
They owned the books and were free to dispose of them in any manner they chose.
They didn't confiscate the books or ask anyone to donate books to be burned.
The decision to remove those books from the school libraries was a long, detailed process.
They removed 4700 books (most of which were duplicates of just a few titles) but they only burned 30.
Burning those symbolic 30 and using them as fertilizer for a newly planted tree was a ritual gesture similar to rituals many people here have probably participated in. (Have you ever lit a candle as a spiritual gesture? Ever received the "body and blood" during communion service? Ever buried a beloved possession with a friend or relative?)
This URL links to a deliberately inflammatory editorial about that event: https://hotair.com/john-s-2/2021/09/08/ontario-school-board-held-flame-purification-ceremony-to-remove-books-offensive-to-aboriginal-knowledge-keepers-n414576 In spite of that editorial's obvious political intent, it does include the truth about what was burned, why it was burned in the way it was, and how the decision to remove those books from the school libraries was made.
Please read that editorial and make up your own mind about it.
I see nothing in this story except a well-intentioned gesture deliberately misrepresented for political purposes. I may not agree with all of their decisions about which books to withdraw or why to withdraw them, but it was their decision to make, just as deciding which books to buy and which to not buy is their decision to make.
I am divided by this symbolic burning action.
On one hand I dislike the big theatrical show of a symbolic burning by a government agency. I understand that personal actions of a burning cleanse can be deeply meaningful to some people. I just don’t like a government agency mucking around in touchy-feely arenas. I like them to stay centered in a fact-driven world.
On the other hand, I think it’s pretty smart PR to do this and it may go far for the “healing “ required by people who are so inclined to look at these actions as healing.
In the end it doesn’t hurt anyone, but I think it’s dumb.I really don’t like my tax supported institutions to look dumb.
On the the issue of which books were pulled and why, I would have to have a whole lot more detail before coming up with an opinion. Having worked in libraries for decades, I know that odds favor at least a few titles were wrongly included in the big sweep of this purge of the politically incorrect. Over-corrections happen in atmospheres like this.
I transported an 80-year-old patient to the mainland the other day for essential life-saving surgery. Surgery went fine, both legs were saved, and they'll walk again, and likely live productively for years more.
When I went to return the patient to the island by ferry, post-op, I had reservations on the state ferry system for the journey, and a medical priority loading certificate.
I arrived well-ahead of the scheduled sailing at around noon. The boat was scheduled to leave at about 12:45pm. Well, some of the fine employees of the Washington State Ferry system had decided to stage a sick-out, on 9/10 and 9/11, to protest the vaccination requirement that the State has issued for this class of transport workers.
So, my patient, and about a dozen others, did not arrive home until noon. The NEXT BLOODY DAY. They waited, stuck at the ferry terminal, while the chaos unfolded, as boat after boat got cancelled as crews failed to show up, or walked out. For some of these patients, mine included, this was life threatening.
At the ferry landing on my island on the other end, hundreds of people were stranded overnight, with no food, water, shelter. Our local fire/EMS agency and several social services agencies had to respond to the ferry landing to provide support.
My patience has run out.
I’m also out of patience with everyone refusing the vaccine except for those with documented medical conditions that cannot get it.
GeorgeParker
9-12-21, 2:56pm
On the the issue of which books were pulled and why, I would have to have a whole lot more detail before coming up with an opinion. Having worked in libraries for decades, I know that odds favor at least a few titles were wrongly included in the big sweep of this purge of the politically incorrect. Over-corrections happen in atmospheres like this.Every year the American Library Association publishes a list of the books that have been challenged or removed most often during previous 12 months. https://bannedbooksweek.org/banned-books-week-2021-books-unite-us/
Calling it a banned books list is incorrect because most of the challenges and removals are because the book was deemed "inappropriate for age group" and removed from a school library or shifted to a higher age section of the library. It's also not a ban because no one is preventing the book being published or preventing people buying it and sharing it with whoever they want to.
Not withstanding that, I make it a point to borrow and read at least two books on the "banned books" list from our public library every year (but I wait a few weeks after Banned Books Week so the books will be available for other people to read.) And I've proudly had my photo taken standing in front of our public library's "I read banned books" sign holding a copy of "I Am Jazz", "Drama", and "George" the year each was banned.
BTW: "George" is on this year's banned book list again. I enjoyed it enough that I bought a used hardback copy for my permanent collection. I highly recommend it and have mentioned it before in the "What are you reading thread"
iris lilies
9-12-21, 3:11pm
Every year the American Library Association publishes a list of the books that have been challenged or removed most often during that year. https://bannedbooksweek.org/banned-books-week-2021-books-unite-us/
Calling it a banned books list is incorrect because most of the challenges and removals are because the book is deemed "inappropriate for age group" and removed form a school library or shifted to a higher age section of the library. And it's also not a ban because no one is preventing the book being published or preventing people buying it and sharing it with whoever they want to.
Not withstanding that, I make it a point to borrow and read at least two books on the "banned books" list from our public library every year (but I wait a few weeks after Banned Books Week so the books will be available for other people to read.)
The challenges in my public library system were always surprising. And once in a while we we did pull the title from our collection because it should not have been there in the first place. Those instances are unusual, but it did happen. One of those challenges was a graphic torture porn film that got some critical love, but it was just too strong for our collection. Another one was a “how to” book for performing abortions. Ummm,we don’t have a collection of medical books, that is not in our collection development policy.
The American Library Association compiles its data from “banned” books from self reporting of libraries, so their “banned” list represents fewer titles and incidents than really exist. I didn’t send in data for our two or three challenges a year because the ALA had ridiculously lengthy forms to fill out for each one. I was happy to send them our annual report of challenges, but I wasn’t gonna fill out their form.
iris lilies
9-12-21, 3:23pm
I transported an 80-year-old patient to the mainland the other day for essential life-saving surgery. Surgery went fine, both legs were saved, and they'll walk again, and likely live productively for years more.
When I went to return the patient to the island by ferry, post-op, I had reservations on the state ferry system for the journey, and a medical priority loading certificate.
I arrived well-ahead of the scheduled sailing at around noon. The boat was scheduled to leave at about 12:45pm. Well, some of the fine employees of the Washington State Ferry system had decided to stage a sick-out, on 9/10 and 9/11, to protest the vaccination requirement that the State has issued for this class of transport workers.
So, my patient, and about a dozen others, did not arrive home until noon. The NEXT BLOODY DAY. They waited, stuck at the ferry terminal, while the chaos unfolded, as boat after boat got cancelled as crews failed to show up, or walked out. For some of these patients, mine included, this was life threatening.
At the ferry landing on my island on the other end, hundreds of people were stranded overnight, with no food, water, shelter. Our local fire/EMS agency and several social services agencies had to respond to the ferry landing to provide support.
My patience has run out.
Shocking and unfortunate. Island living is subject to dangers that we on mainland do not understand.
Generally I’m not in favor of public employees striking, whether legally or illegally.
GeorgeParker
9-12-21, 3:27pm
Well, some of the fine employees of the Washington State Ferry system had decided to stage a sick-out, on 9/10 and 9/11, to protest the vaccination requirement that the State has issued for this class of transport workers.You're right. Truly essential services have to be maintained. But if this was just about a vaccine mandate, I have to wonder why the employees who were already voluntarily vaccinated walked out instead of maintaining a reduced/minimum ferry service and why the powers that be didn't have a plan in place to shift the employees who did come to work from one place to another as need to maintain minimum service. I also wonder why neither you nor the hospital knew the ferry employees were threatening to have this sick-out.
But if this was just about a vaccine mandate, I have to wonder why the employees who were already voluntarily vaccinated walked out instead of maintaining a reduced/minimum ferry service and why the powers that be didn't have a plan in place to shift the employees who did come to work from one place to another as need to maintain minimum service. I also wonder why neither you nor the hospital knew the ferry employees were threatening to have this sick-out.
Well:
- The people who were vaccinated seemed to have showed up. This was not a union-approved sick-out. The union discouraged such action, and pointed out the illegality of it, as did the ferry management and the state government. The people who showed up to work did an amazing job with what they were left to work with. Kudos to them.
- The Powers that Be have for years notoriously understaffed and underinvested in the ferry system, which is an important part of our state highway system. In particular, they had not hired folks in the entry level positions that lead to higher level positions. It takes years to move from deckhand to engine crew to navigation/officer positions.
- The pandemic has increased their staffing difficulties during the past year and a half. Many of the older employees took early retirement, and not enough hires were made to replace the people exiting the system. We've had boats for the past year get cancelled because the Coast Guard mandated staffing levels were not adequate for the boat to leave the dock.
- The lack of maintenance of the vessels over the past 15 years, and the lack of construction to replace aging vessels (one which went out of service recently was > 75 years old) has resulted in a fleet that doesn't have enough spare boats available to handle routine mechanical breakdowns.
- The ferry management has been resistant to come up with plans for operating when even a single vessel is out of service. They have been repeatedly asked to provide such plans.
As a result, the fleet, and the routes, and the schedules are fragile at the best of times.
Now, the anti-vaxxers in the ferry worker staff have cleverly realized they have extraordinary power. They flexed their muscles as a test the past few months by waiting for boats to get loaded, then having a crewmember due to set foot aboard during the shift change decide they weren't going to work that day. Sometimes after 150 cars and thousands of people had been loaded aboard the vessel, causing a total clusterfoof.
Last week, they released threats to stage their walk-out during the Labor Day Weekend, and received widespread regional media coverage. As a result, boats were running nearly empty as folks had been warned off using the service. The economic damage to my County was huge, as this was one of our biggest "visitor" weekends, and the streets were empty. (Kinda nice actually, if you don't have a family to feed and rent to pay, very peaceful in town.) They didn't actually *do* the sick-out however. Ha ha, funny joke.
This weekend, they *did* do the sickout, without any significant warning. Thousands of people were stranded as a result. Boats had to be unloaded at the dock after loading. Boats had to be tied up at remote docks as they suddenly found themselves without enough crew to return to the terminal. Etc. etc. 3 of the 5 boats serving my County basically didn't run most of the time.
The people running the terminals were scrambling, as they themselves at any given moment did not know which boats or crew were available. They came up with some incredibly creative solutions to solve the problems as best they could. Two whole volunteer crews showed up Friday night and commandeered vessels and did a sweep of some of the affected communities and ran through the night trying to help folks.
You can wonder why we didn't know ahead of time that this was going to secretly happen. You tell me? You can wonder why the patient sitting next to me decided it was better to have the operation during a timeperiod that transport seemed secure, rather than hang lose his legs to amputation. Don't know.
Fun times.
For context, the Washington State Ferry service is sort of huge. It is the second-largest ferry system on Earth, and the largest in the USA. Has ~20 terminals, a fleet of ~21 aging vessels (down a few from the high, because of vessels declared unfit for service the past couple of years, and no replacements.) Millions of autos and foot passengers carried every year.
iris lilies
9-12-21, 6:04pm
We have ferries here, both state run and privately run. It always makes me gulp when the ole Miss is too rough to run the ferries and the inhabitants of near-islands must go the long way around to cross a bridge.I suppose there are times when bae’s ocean is too rough to run a ferry.
Remember when Ronald Regan fired the government employed air traffic controller’s for striking? Ah, those were the days. Those guys probably had some real beefs in a super high pressure job.
These island ferry guys, while running a skilled and probably somewhat dangerous operation, do not have much of a real beef.Don’t wanna vaccine? Quit your job and go find one because it’s not like there are no jobs out there.
I suppose there are times when bae’s ocean is too rough to run a ferry.
That's fairly rare, the Salish Sea is pretty well protected, and the ferry routes run where there isn't a lot of fetch. There are alternate more-protected routes they take when it is really bad.
That said, I've been loaded on the front part of the car deck on days that were so bad that waves were landing on top of my large truck, very scary.
For context, the Washington State Ferry service is sort of huge. It is the second-largest ferry system on Earth, and the largest in the USA. Has ~20 terminals, a fleet of ~21 aging vessels
The New York Ferry Service has 24 ferry piers and 32 vessels.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NYC_Ferry
New York is in the USA.
The New York Ferry Service has 24 ferry piers and 32 vessels.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NYC_Ferry
New York is in the USA.
Perhaps number of vessels and piers isn't the metric used for "largest"....
How many 10s of millions of vehicles and 10s of millions of passengers does NYC move each year?
You seem to know everything though, tell us more.... Or, I don't know, take it up with the ferry PR people on both ends. You might find though that there are some *single* routes in the WSF system that run more traffic than the NYC system...
Ride on ferries much do you?
Perhaps number of vessels and piers isn't the metric used for "largest"....
How many 10s of millions of vehicles and 10s of millions of passengers does NYC move each year?
You seem to know everything though, tell us more.... Or, I don't know, take it up with the ferry PR people on both ends. You might find though that there are some *single* routes in the WSF system that run more traffic than the NYC system...
Ride on ferries much do you?
I quoted your stats of terminals and vessels, apples for apples.
Yes, I have ridden on numerous ferries. If you do a state by state comparison, you would have to add in ferries in other parts of New York outside the Big Apple, and New York's stats would grow even larger.
I quoted your stats of terminals and vessels, apples for apples.
Yes, I have ridden on numerous ferries. If you do a state by state comparison, you would have to add in ferries in other parts of New York outside the Big Apple, and New York's stats would grow even larger.
You are special.
GeorgeParker
9-12-21, 6:39pm
The challenges in my public library system were always surprising.Related to the banned books discussion, this a funny cute oops story.
In 1990 a female coworker (Jane) and I happened to arrive at the public library at the same time. I was there to return House by Tracy Kidder (very good book BTW) and she had her two daughters in tow. We said hello and few words of small talk and then she said "Jill needs a book to do a book report on for school." I looked at 12yo Jill and puckishly said, "This is a good book. I liked it a lot." Jill, seeing the 352 pages of dense text in my hand looked properly horrified." :) I smiled, handed House to the librarian, and went off to find my next book.
The next day at work Jane approached me looking somewhat aghast and politely asked me "Why on earth did you recommend a book like that to my daughter." I chuckled and said "You didn't actually check it out, did you? I was just teasing her by recommending a book I knew was 4 times bigger than anything she would ever want to read." Jane said "Oh." I said "The horrified look on her face when I suggested it was priceless. Didn't she tell you it was to big to read?" Jane looked a little bashful and said "well, yes. But I told her at least start reading it anyway. Then after supper I walked past the girl's room and they were sitting on the bed eagerly turning pages and giggling because they were looking for all the pages where the carpenters are cussing about the owner and the architect." (BTW there was a LOT of fairly rough language in the parts of that book where the carpenters were talking.)
Fortunately Jane had a good sense of humor and we were friends. So I suggested some fiction books appropriate for Jill and her sister (a mixture of "girl books" and "boy books") and recommended Jill do her review on a well-known book written for boys in the 1960s because she would probably be the only one who did a book review on it.
Side Note: In reality, most girls read a lot of boy books because there are so many of them and most adventures and mysteries tend to be boy slanted. Most boys, on the other hand, wouldn't be caught dead reading a book where the primary character is a girl. At least that's the way it was while I was growing up. But I read anything that sounded interesting, regardless of who the main character was, and I was actually amused when a librarian looked at a book I was checking out and conspiratorially told 13 year old me "This is a good book, but it was actually written for girls...." I don't remember what that book was, but it was probably a Trixie Belden. I read all of those (in their original unabridged versions) as fast as I could get my hands on them. https://www.amazon.com/gp/bookseries/B00CKDIGIS/ref=dp_st_0307215903 But I only read girl books at home, not in public. After all, I was totally boy and still am.
You are special.
I have had some special experiences including riding a ferry across Lake Champlain from Charlotte, Vermont to Essex, New York. I've also taken a boat on the Erie Canal in New York as well as numerous ferries in NYC. But I have not been on a boat below Niagara Falls, NY. Nor have I taken one of the boats that goes out on Lake George, NY, or Lake Ontario, NY, and I could go on.
GeorgeParker
9-12-21, 6:59pm
You can wonder why we didn't know ahead of time that this was going to secretly happen.You got blindsided and sucker punched. That sucks.
You can wonder why the patient sitting next to me decided it was better to have the operation during a timeperiod that transport seemed secure, rather than hang lose his legs to amputation.Did you mean "secure" or "insecure"? Either way, you've got to do what you've got to do in a situation like that. Hopefully there won't be too many of them. But I was asking why they didn't stay in the hospital if transportation seemed iffy, not why they went ahead and had the surgery. Under the circumstances as you've described them, knowing the transportation situation would go to hell clearly wasn't possible, so you/they made to most logical decision that they could.
iris lilies
9-12-21, 8:00pm
Related to the banned books discussion, this a funny cute oops story.
In 1990 a female coworker (Jane) and I happened to arrive at the public library at the same time. I was there to return House by Tracy Kidder (very good book BTW) and she had her two daughters in tow. We said hello and few words of small talk and then she said "Jill needs a book to do a book report on for school." I looked at 12yo Jill and puckishly said, "This is a good book. I liked it a lot." Jill, seeing the 352 pages of dense text in my hand looked properly horrified." :) I smiled, handed House to the librarian, and went off to find my next book.
The next day at work Jane approached me looking somewhat aghast and politely asked me "Why on earth did you recommend a book like that to my daughter." I chuckled and said "You didn't actually check it out, did you? I was just teasing her by recommending a book I knew was 4 times bigger than anything she would ever want to read." Jane said "Oh." I said "The horrified look on her face when I suggested it was priceless. Didn't she tell you it was to big to read?" Jane looked a little bashful and said "well, yes. But I told her at least start reading it anyway. Then after supper I walked past the girl's room and they were sitting on the bed eagerly turning pages and giggling because they were looking for all the pages where the carpenters are cussing about the owner and the architect." (BTW there was a LOT of fairly rough language in the parts of that book where the carpenters were talking.)
Fortunately Jane had a good sense of humor and we were friends. So I suggested some fiction books appropriate for Jill and her sister (a mixture of "girl books" and "boy books") and recommended Jill do her review on a well-known book written for boys in the 1960s because she would probably be the only one who did a book review on it.
Side Note: In reality, most girls read a lot of boy books because there are so many of them and most adventures and mysteries tend to be boy slanted. Most boys, on the other hand, wouldn't be caught dead reading a book where the primary character is a girl. At least that's the way it was while I was growing up. But I read anything that sounded interesting, regardless of who the main character was, and I was actually amused when a librarian looked at a book I was checking out and conspiratorially told 13 year old me "This is a good book, but it was actually written for girls...." I don't remember what that book was, but it was probably a Trixie Belden. I read all of those (in their original unabridged versions) as fast as I could get my hands on them. https://www.amazon.com/gp/bookseries/B00CKDIGIS/ref=dp_st_0307215903 But I only read girl books at home, not in public. After all, I was totally boy and still am.
It is true that girls read boy books and girl books; the boys will not read girl books.
Maybe because boys understand that some of the girl books are full of drivel and they have no patience with it?
frugal-one
9-12-21, 9:18pm
You are special.
Signs and symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder:
Grandiose sense of self-importance. ...
Lives in a fantasy world that supports their delusions of grandeur. ...
Needs constant praise and admiration. ...
Sense of entitlement. ...
Exploits others without guilt or shame. ...
Frequently demeans, intimidates, bullies, or belittles others.
Signs and symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder:
Grandiose sense of self-importance. ...
Lives in a fantasy world that supports their delusions of grandeur. ...
Needs constant praise and admiration. ...
Sense of entitlement. ...
Exploits others without guilt or shame. ...
Frequently demeans, intimidates, bullies, or belittles others.
So would you say that everyone who consistently responds to Yppej, talks about her in the 3rd person, calls her names and belittles her is also somewhere on the "special" spectrum?
GeorgeParker
9-12-21, 10:21pm
Maybe because boys understand that some of the girl books are full of drivel and they have no patience with it?Some of the boy books are full of drivel too. The same is true of some manga and some anime. But one always hopes children and grownups will gravitate toward the best available books, manga, and anime instead of cheap drivel.
FWIW the author of the Trixie Belden books despised the Nancy Drew books because they were "badly written and entirely unbelievable....[They are] so unrealistic, with such absurd lurid plots, and then she breaks the first rule and always screams that she is Carson Drew’s daughter to get out of a scrape. The rule is that when kids get themselves into a scrape, they must get themselves out without help from adults." This discussion is difficult to follow because it's a forum thread converted to a text file, but it's worth reading: http://barbln.org/trixie/better_opinion.htm
Have you, as a library person, read all of the Amber Brown books, including the new one written after Paula Danziger died? Not a single line of drivel there, imo.
rosarugosa
9-13-21, 5:53am
I loved the Trixie Belden books, but I also enjoyed Nancy Drew books for the plot I guess. I remember even back then thinking the Nancy books were wildly unrealistic, and I appreciated the fact that Trixie had chores and brothers that teased her, etc.
iris lilies
9-13-21, 10:23am
I didn’t read either Nancy Drew or Trixie Beldon. Our tiny town had a library, so that was great to have access to those books. The only series books I read that I remember was Bobsey Twins, and only those because I ran out of reading material. I hated them, so cloying.
Oddly, I do not remember ever reading Rebecca of Sunnybrook Farm.Thinking of all the children’s classics, I did not read Black Neauty, Old Yeller, Anne of Greene Gables, and many other American standards. Early on I gravitated to English authors.
Jane v2.0
9-13-21, 11:57am
I read a couple of the Nancy Drew books, but I really liked the series by Alice B Emerson that began with Ruth Fielding of the Red Mill.3959
Teacher Terry
9-13-21, 1:30pm
I loved Tricia Belden books.
My grandfather had a secret passion - classic era science fiction and pulp mystery/horror.
He lived in about a 900 sq. ft. farmhouse. Which was built on a small hill overlooking his farm. It had a basement underneath though, dug into the hill, that he kept expanding over the years. The hill had some exterior entrances to get into the garage and auto repair areas he excavated. There were workshops and food storage and food preservation rooms (canning, cheesemaking, meat processing) down in the magical dungeons.
But to me, the treasure was a room hidden away in there. You opened up the nearly-secret door, into a room that was completely lined with bookshelves, with a table and several library chairs, and good lighting. The shelves were groaning with all the classic sci fi magazines, pulp mystery magazines, science/engineering books and magazines going back to the Age of Steam.
I remember pulling down my first book, nearly at random. It was a leap into a whole new world:
https://pictures.abebooks.com/inventory/md/md30783504009.jpg
iris lilies
9-13-21, 1:56pm
Bae, a secret library! That is cool.
My grandfather had a secret passion - classic era science fiction and pulp mystery/horror.
He lived in about a 900 sq. ft. farmhouse. Which was built on a small hill overlooking his farm. It had a basement underneath though, dug into the hill, that he kept expanding over the years. The hill had some exterior entrances to get into the garage and auto repair areas he excavated. There were workshops and food storage and food preservation rooms (canning, cheesemaking, meat processing) down in the magical dungeons.
But to me, the treasure was a room hidden away in there. You opened up the nearly-secret door, into a room that was completely lined with bookshelves, with a table and several library chairs, and good lighting. The shelves were groaning with all the classic sci fi magazines, pulp mystery magazines, science/engineering books and magazines going back to the Age of Steam.
I remember pulling down my first book, nearly at random. It was a leap into a whole new world:
https://pictures.abebooks.com/inventory/md/md30783504009.jpg
My dad was a big Tom Swift fan. Also Doc Savage.
And I forget the name, but a magazine about adventures related to railroads.
That secret library is really cool!
I loved Nancy Drew as a kid, but they weren't available in my parochial school library--the nuns clamped down on the book series with the rationale that reading many by one author would restrict our vocabulary. My parents wouldn't let me read any comic books, so MAD Magazine and Archie & Veronica became forbidden fruit. I don't remember too many specific books I loved except for The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe. That book made a huge impression on me.
iris lilies
9-13-21, 2:40pm
That secret library is really cool!
I loved Nancy Drew as a kid, but they weren't available in my parochial school library--the nuns clamped down on the book series with the rationale that reading many by one author would restrict our vocabulary. My parents wouldn't let me read any comic books, so MAD Magazine and Archie & Veronica became forbidden fruit. I don't remember too many specific books I loved except for The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe.
My parents let me read anything. But they also found a steady stream of purchase books as well as library books to me, and the only time I remember reading comics while on summer vacation at the resort where there were hundreds of them.
I’m not sure why I never occurred to me to buy them, so Archie and Veronica were fun for the summer but that’s it.
I do remember a period in early to mid teens reading true romance magazines with their hints of sex, or some were full of rather blatent sex, getting hooked on those emo things that were pretty much bottom of the barrel. So I have had my “junk “reading episodes.
I do remember a period in early to mid teens reading true romance magazines with their hints of sex, or some were full of rather blatent sex, getting hooked on those emo things that were pretty much bottom of the barrel. So I have had my “junk “reading episodes.
Joy in the Morning by Betty Smith was the first book I read that offered me a taste of what "adult" life was like.
I've always had low-rent tastes, so when I was about six or seven, I was all over comics like Sheena, Queen of the Jungle, Archie, and Katy Keene. I didn't discover Mad magazine until I was about ten, and I loved those lurid Detective magazines in my teens. My father had a not-so-secret library full of Edgar Rice Burroughs and early sci-fi books I used to raid.
Joy in the Morning by Betty Smith was the first book I read that offered me a taste of what "adult" life was like.As a youngster I got the same from virtually everything Robert Heinlein wrote. I think that's why I read them all.
iris lilies
9-13-21, 3:44pm
I've always had low-rent tastes, so when I was about six or seven, I was all over comics like Sheena, Queen of the Jungle, Archie, and Katy Keene. I didn't discover Mad magazine until I was about ten, and I loved those lurid Detective magazines in my teens. My father had a not-so-secret library full of Edgar Rice Burroughs and early sci-fi books I used to raid.
I remember buying a few issues of mad magazine because it was a cool thing to do, and I tried to like it, but I thought it was just basically stupid.
I got caught up in a small cult revival of Robert E. Howard books in the seventies or maybe early eighties. He wrote pulp fiction and fantasy in the 1930's or so and was best know for the Conan the Barbarian series, although there were other fine stories like Pigeons from Hell, Worms of the Earth, and Marchers of Valhalla, some set in a fictional west or other imaginary locations and eras. I just did a quick review and he seems to have written stories about an Texas gunman in early 20th century Afghanistan, which I don't recall reading, but does stir the imagination.
If Biden just named the covid vaccines after Trump, and praised him for Warp Speed, then Trump, who got the vaccine himself and is not against it, would promote it and we wouldn't need mandates.
GeorgeParker
9-13-21, 4:26pm
I remember buying a few issues of mad magazine because it was a cool thing to do, and I tried to like it, but I thought it was just basically stupid.A lot of Mad Magazine's content was college level social and political commentary expressed as satire. If you weren't old enough or interested enough to be aware of what they were making fun of, most of it either went straight over your head or just seemed dumb. I remember Mad had a lengthy comicstrip version of HMS Pinafore with the Kennedy White House as the focus (circa 1962, when I was 12). In particular, I remember the lyric: "They call me sweet Caroline, cute little Caroline, queen of the nation's small fry. And though I'm no lover girl, still I'm top covergirl. Sweet little Caroline I." Lord knows why I remember that lyric. Maybe because it was probably the only part of that parody I really understood and thought was funny.
If Biden just named the covid vaccines after Trump, and praised him for Warp Speed, then Trump, who got the vaccine himself and is not against it, would promote it and we wouldn't need mandates.
Actually, I think the best course would have been for Biden to mandate employers require a weekly covid test for all employees which could then be discontinued upon an employee's vaccination. That would have provided a vaccine initiative to bypass the mandate rather than the other way around.
I remember buying a few issues of mad magazine because it was a cool thing to do, and I tried to like it, but I thought it was just basically stupid.
Like I said--low-rent tastes. I liked some parts of it better than others, natch.:~)
GeorgeParker
9-13-21, 4:42pm
My dad was a big Tom Swift fan. Also Doc Savage.Let's not forget the Sci-Fi stories and books written by Del Rey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lester_del_Rey and the hot rod, car racing, and sports fiction books written by William Campbell Gault https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Campbell_Gault
They were an important part of my teenage reading and an important part of me understanding that not all teenagers or all adults were like the people I knew.
frugal-one
9-13-21, 5:10pm
So would you say that everyone who consistently responds to Yppej, talks about her in the 3rd person, calls her names and belittles her is also somewhere on the "special" spectrum?
You were the one who said not to respond directly. Many have her on ignore but her constant refrain is hard to ignore. Her posts are copied. And, yeah, I think bae is a special person, albeit not in the manner in which you inferred.
frugal-one
9-13-21, 5:21pm
Actually, I think the best course would have been for Biden to mandate employers require a weekly covid test for all employees which could then be discontinued upon an employee's vaccination. That would have provided a vaccine initiative to bypass the mandate rather than the other way around.
May be cost prohibitive to do on a large scale weekly???
I got caught up in a small cult revival of Robert E. Howard books in the seventies or maybe early eighties. He wrote pulp fiction and fantasy in the 1930's or so and was best know for the Conan the Barbarian series, although there were other fine stories like Pigeons from Hell, Worms of the Earth, and Marchers of Valhalla, some set in a fictional west or other imaginary locations and eras. I just did a quick review and he seems to have written stories about an Texas gunman in early 20th century Afghanistan, which I don't recall reading, but does stir the imagination.
Francis Xavier Gordon, known to the locals as El Borak. As I recall, he spent a lot of time on the edge of cliffs with beautiful women in wispy clothing. You couldn’t get away with writing stuff like that today.
You were the one who said not to respond directly. Many have her on ignore but her constant refrain is hard to ignore. Her posts are copied. And, yeah, I think bae is a special person, albeit not in the manner in which you inferred.
I didn't infer anything, you posted the following:
Signs and symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder:
Grandiose sense of self-importance. ...
Lives in a fantasy world that supports their delusions of grandeur. ...
Needs constant praise and admiration. ...
Sense of entitlement. ...
Exploits others without guilt or shame. ...
Frequently demeans, intimidates, bullies, or belittles others.
I asked if you thought people who engage in some of the activities listed in the last line of your description might be on the "Special" spectrum. I asked because I see a lot of that.
frugal-one
9-13-21, 5:22pm
I remember enjoy reading The Boxcar Children, Nancy Drew, The Bobsey Twins ...
frugal-one
9-13-21, 5:26pm
I didn't infer anything, you posted the following:
I asked if you thought people who engage in some of the activities listed in the last line of your description might be on the "Special" spectrum. I asked because I see a lot of that.[/COLOR]
Supposedly, everyone has a bit of narcissism to some degree. But, those who continually beat a dead horse and refuse to abate even when many people complain truly have NPD.
Supposedly, everyone has a bit of narcissism to some degree. But, those who continually beat a dead horse and refuse to abate even when many people complain truly have NPD.
It might help some of us if you and others would let us know if you're talking about a person or masks. Frankly I can't tell the difference.
Supposedly, everyone has a bit of narcissism to some degree. But, those who continually beat a dead horse and refuse to abate even when many people complain truly have NPD.
John Lewis was arrested 24 times for asking for his rights. I am sure many in the South were tired of him doing so and complained. Did John Lewis suffer from NPD because he wasn't a people pleaser and wouldn't shut up?
frugal-one
9-13-21, 5:47pm
It might help some of us if you and others would let us know if you're talking about a person or masks. Frankly I can't tell the difference.
Huh? Obviously, a person...
Those who (yppej) continually beat a dead horse (mask issue) and refuse to abate even when many people complain about her (she) truly has NPD.
I hope this clears it up for you.
I believe happy and others have reiterated this again and again. Even asking the moderator to intervene.
I hope this clears it up for you.
Yes, you've been very clear, I suppose it was me that wasn't. I guess I should have said that whether someone is going on and on about masks or if they're going on and on about the least favorite poster, it all looks the same to me.
Chicken lady
9-13-21, 6:57pm
When I was 12 my father took me upstairs to the adult section and filled out a form that said I could check out anything I liked on his card (my card was only good in the children’s library.) the librarian was a bit taken aback “anything? Are you sure?” He was sure. This was a man who put the complete works of William Shakespeare, Rudyard Kipling, Edgar Allan Poe, and Sherlock Holmes on a top shelf in the family room so I would have to climb the built-ins to get them. Guaranteeing that I did. (Bypassing the encyclopedia and other lovely things my mother had put out at my height.)
I got most of my sex ed and an interesting view of religion from Heinlein.
frugal-one
9-13-21, 7:08pm
Yes, you've been very clear, I suppose it was me that wasn't. I guess I should have said that whether someone is going on and on about masks or if they're going on and on about the least favorite poster, it all looks the same to me.
And, even if there are multiple posters who complain about one person... it is all the same to you?
And, even if there are multiple posters who complain about one person... it is all the same to you?
Yeah, pretty much. See, I'm pretty sure that if I took action against someone because a few people can't resist reading everything they post, then I'd also have to take action against everyone who can't resist calling that person a troll or suggesting they're mentally ill, and then I'd have to take action against all of their friends who begin to complain about people being moderated for simply expressing an opinion, and on and on and on.
It's a lot easier (and I think healthier in the long run) to suggest you all just ignore each other.
ApatheticNoMore
9-13-21, 7:45pm
There is the matter that whole new threads kept popping up about masks and similar obsessions, there was no equivalency.
There is the matter that whole new threads kept popping up about masks and similar obsessions, there was no equivalency.
Underneath the title of a thread is "Started by". If you don't like a poster then don't read their threads. It's that simple.
Jeppy has started interesting threads about frugality and minimizing and achieving household goals. In Al-Anon (and probably all 12-step groups) they say, "Take what you like and leave the rest." That's what I try to do.
iris lilies
9-13-21, 8:04pm
Yeah, pretty much. See, I'm pretty sure that if I took action against someone because a few people can't resist reading everything they post, then I'd also have to take action against everyone who can't resist calling that person a troll or suggesting they're mentally ill, and then I'd have to take action against all of their friends who begin to complain about people being moderated for simply expressing an opinion, and on and on and on.
It's a lot easier (and I think healthier in the long run) to suggest you all just ignore each other.
This is such a Dad post! Just saying that lovingly for our site administrator.
This is such a Dad post! Just saying that lovingly for our site administrator.
Is there a "like" button?
There is the matter that whole new threads kept popping up about masks and similar obsessions, there was no equivalency.Sort of reminiscent of the Trump years when thread after thread after thread after thread were started by the same few folks complaining about the same old things and calling anyone they disagreed with racists, homophobes and hypocrites. We've seen all this before.
This is such a Dad post! Just saying that lovingly for our site administrator.
:+1:
John Lewis was arrested 24 times for asking for his rights. I am sure many in the South were tired of him doing so and complained. Did John Lewis suffer from NPD because he wasn't a people pleaser and wouldn't shut up?
You’re totally John Lewis v 2.0. Rock on lady. Rock on. I can’t wait to read about you on Wikipedia a few years from now. SMH.
Teacher Terry
9-14-21, 1:59am
I totally agree with Alan’s approach. We are adults and can ignore people if we choose to.
rosarugosa
9-14-21, 6:06am
But back to the more important topic of MAD Magazine - I first encountered Alfred E. Newman when I was 7 years old and subscribed until I was 18. I never missed an issue!
iris lilies
9-14-21, 6:18am
But back to the more important topic of MAD Magazine - I first encountered Alfred E. Newman when I was 7 years old and subscribed until I was 18. I never missed an issue!
I will admit that the whole idea of Alfred E Newman was funny.
Yeah, pretty much. See, I'm pretty sure that if I took action against someone because a few people can't resist reading everything they post, then I'd also have to take action against everyone who can't resist calling that person a troll or suggesting they're mentally ill, and then I'd have to take action against all of their friends who begin to complain about people being moderated for simply expressing an opinion, and on and on and on.
It's a lot easier (and I think healthier in the long run) to suggest you all just ignore each other.
Beating a dead horse about beating a dead horse?
https://dfjc3etzov2zz.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Mad-Magazine-Alfred-Neuman-what-me-worry.gif
GeorgeParker
9-14-21, 12:18pm
I got most of my sex ed and an interesting view of religion from Heinlein.Ah, yes! Sex! In Podkayne of Mars there's a scene where Podkayne is locked in a room with a caged monster and she can barely stay beyond it's reach. The implied threat that she'll be given to the monster if she doesn't cooperate is obvious, and in her description of the monster Podkayne makes a parenthetical remark that "There was no doubt that it was a male. Ugh! I swear it was bad enough to make a girl join a convent." (quoted loosely from memory)
Considering Podkayne of Mars was a book for teenagers/tweenagers written in 1962 that was pretty darn graphic and naughty.
Ah, yes! Sex!
I think the 1960s Batman TV series had a very educational effect on me.
I think the 1960s Batman TV series had a very educational effect on me.
Eartha Kitt as Catwoman?
happystuff
9-18-21, 10:38am
Eartha Kitt as Catwoman?
Definitely my favorite!
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